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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 9, 2002

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If you're so bored, maybe you should come up with something to talk about . . . waiting 'till the sweep is okay, but there's got to be something more you can do with the time. *nodnod*
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Sunday, September 8, 2002 11:22:24 PM
IP: 206.214.2.137

I am soooo bored! waiting for a chance to claim a number, that's how very bored I am!
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
Sunday, September 8, 2002 11:06:53 PM
IP: 64.91.100.177

*CHIRP.... CHIRP.... CHIRP....*
cricket
Sunday, September 8, 2002 10:29:35 PM
IP: 207.230.53.34

*Looks around*
Whoohoo no one is here that's strange, usually this place is packed.
*Exits quietly*

Gray Wolf
Sunday, September 8, 2002 10:23:33 PM
IP: 193.174.103.66

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
Quiet like a fox.
<glances at self with surprise> Huh, what do you know, I'm still here.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>

Lord Sloth
Oakville, ON, Canada
Sunday, September 8, 2002 09:05:13 PM
IP: 142.55.21.45

Wow, such a quiet day.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, September 8, 2002 07:07:25 PM
IP: 12.88.91.172

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Regardless of whether or not he recognizes that it was deliberate on their part, that was still the moment when his life began to go out of his control, even though he didn't realize it at the time. He doesn't need to blame the Sisters specifically for it, blaming Life or Fate (*snickers*) or God for it is enough.]

It could be argued that he'd focus more on the betrayal on that Hill in 1057 rather than the spellcasting in 1040. Losing his life, wife, and Kingdom all in one day would tend to stick out in a persons mind as a "moment where life went wrong" more than the time when he made the bargain which at the time brought him tons of success. If he really was going to go into a deep analysis of events then he might just curse the moment he got it into his mind to make any alliance with Demona which would have him blame the events of 1040. But still even with that his anger and focus would always be more on Demona than on the Sisters.

To be honest I just don't really see him focusing blame on them. He knows that they had a role in his immortality but even though they tricked him he got the short term success he wanted and it was only later when the details kicked in; I think that he might not have as much regret about the first bargain as we might think and that he would tend to focus more on the betrayal than anything else.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, September 8, 2002 12:22:37 AM
IP: 12.88.88.86

I am no longer a member of the G2004 Bid staff, I have decided to cut all ties with the group for reasons of self dignity, and my reputation. I am also not the webmaster of the G2004 bid site. I have emailed the real webmaster asking her to stop using my name for the webmaster.
Gray Wolf
Saturday, September 7, 2002 12:46:31 PM
IP: 68.13.157.215

Airwalker> "But he doesn't know that they tricked him into immortality; without knowledge of AVALON he still thinks that they just happened to add on something extra on the spell they cast as a sort of "magic has a price" thing."
Maybe he doesn't know that they tricked him into immortality _specifically_ (as in, he may not suspect that the point of the whole thing was to make him immortal), but he certainly knows he was tricked. They deliberately left out an awfully big piece of information when they made that bargain. It's not even really like what Puck did to Demona; he just gave her what she asked for in a way that she wasn't expecting. The Sisters stretched that same loophole _way_ out of proportion; they may _claim_ that he agreed to it, but that's bullshit. There's no way he isn't bitter about what they did to him. But, none of that is really the point. Regardless of whether or not he recognizes that it was deliberate on their part, that was still the moment when his life began to go out of his control, even though he didn't realize it at the time. He doesn't need to blame the Sisters specifically for it, blaming Life or Fate (*snickers*) or God for it is enough. And he doesn't even have to do _that_ consciously. Just that general feeling of "why me?" is enough. And there's no way you'll ever convince me he's never thought _that_ in all his 900 years. ;)

"[Did he actually say something similar in the episode?]
Actually he did. Poor Bastard."
And the moral of today's story is... Lather, Rinse, Repeat. No, that can't be right... :)

"I'm sorry for your loss."
Thank you.

Bud-Clare
Saturday, September 7, 2002 01:35:24 AM
IP: 129.21.10.107

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [I hadn't even thought of the mind control that the Sisters used on him. I was just refering to the original meddling in his life, tricking him into becoming immortal and such.]

But he doesn't know that they tricked him into immortality; without knowledge of AVALON he still thinks that they just happened to add on something extra on the spell they cast as a sort of "magic has a price" thing. Without that bit of knowledge of a Fey plan that we get in AVALON 1-3 it would tend to appear more as irony in his deal than actually trying to manipulate and keep him alive for some greater purpose.

I'm sure though that from time to time he's cursed the Sisters for being around as a natural human reaction, most probably at the most miserable moments of his immortal life. But would he really think that they tricked him when he actually willingly accepted the entire package as a way to save his family and his kingdom? Nobody really forced him to make the bargain. He made the strategic choice to go through with it and accept whatever consequences came with it. On top of that it doesn't look like they have interfered in his life in any other way so he doesn't have any evidence or reason to see them as having manipulated his life.

Besides he's a person who would take responsibility for the decisions he makes in his life. I don't think that he'd be thinking that his entire life was just a big manipulation by the Weird Sisters. He may not be happy about being immortal but I don't think that he's chalking his miserable life up to the Sisters. If anything I think that he'd have more reason to dump more blame on Demona more than anything else. After all would the immortality clause have kicked in if she hadn't betrayed him and gotten him killed? That would be a more likely thought in his mind than the fact that the immortality clause was dumped into the bargain by the Weird Sisters.

You wrote: [And obviously I'm not saying that this was the main reason he wanted Excalibur, or even a big reason, or that he would have been consciously aware of it at all. No one ever does anything for just one reason, and rarely even for just two reasons;]

I'm not saying that I think that he might have had only one or two reasons for going after Excalibur after he found out that it was an option for him to find it. He probably had tons of conscious and unconscious reasons to do so. But while I can accept that as a reason that he went after it as a form of gaining more control over his life, I don't think that he really considered himself manipulated and controlled by the Weird Sisters. I do think that it was more a reaction to Demona rather than the Weird Sisters. Aside from Immortality and putting him to sleep in CITY OF STONE 4 when else has he really encountered the Sisters or seen evidence of them interfering with his life or dictating its path? Those are more Demona things than anything else - and not because she might actually be doing those things but because he's spent most of his time reacting to her and his hate for her rather than letting go of her and everything she represents to him.

You wrote: [I just think that maybe, on a psychological level, the idea of having Excalibur appealed to him a bit, sort of like having a security blanket.]

I think that in a way it might have been a way for him to validate himself to his father. Sort of a way of him saying that despite everything he's still a King and he's able to make his father proud. After all he does sound proud when he declares himself to be the Once and Future King - especially when he mentions his fathers name to identify himself. The sound his actor gives that line just adds so much significance to it in my opinion.

You wrote: [Did he actually say something similar in the episode?]

Actually he did. Poor Bastard. :-)

You wrote: [My father finally died today.]

I'm sorry for your loss.



SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I can't see him as the type to do that. Who knows maybe the thought Demona was a good kisser.]

I could see him thinking that last part but given all the hate that he's invested in Demona over the years I can't help but think he'd be a little disgusted at the same time. I could see him taunting her in the future about it though. :-)



JIM R - You wrote: [Thailog recovers, by coming back for Demona]

I always saw him mainly coming back to make absolutely sure that the plan worked; after all if it didn't then he'd have to move onto Plan B. :-) Which is basically what he sort of did.

Without an Owen of his own he has to do detail work like that on his own. I wonder if when he hits the Gargoyle equivilent of 40 if he'll get his own assistant too? :-)



JIMMY - You wrote: [I don't think so, whenever Macbeth's life seems good and happy and her's is in shambles, she might come by get pissed and do some damage.]

I don't see Demona being as obsessed with Macbeth as he is with her. She has her whole Genocide thing to keep her busy while Macbeth mainly had revenge/suicide on his mind. So I don't really see her purposefully seeking out Macbeth to do some damage to him just to cheer herself up. I could see her accidentally running into him and doing some damage that way. But I think that she'd be more likely to keep some distance between the two of them. Why seek out the one person who can kill you when you have bigger fish to fry?

You wrote: [Macbeth just doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just go after Demona unless he thought he would be doing the world a fovor by killing her.]

He's an immortal human consumed by revenge and thoughts of suicide. Demona's betrayal of him which led to his seperation from his wife and which he probably blames for the death of his son (there isn't a guarantee that Macbeth being there would have kept his son alive but I don't think he'd see it that way) alone are reason enough for him to hunt her. Not to mention that she helped destroy his kingdom and put him in an eternal exile on top of all that. Plus if that isn't enough he really wants to die and her dying is the only way to do it. Just because he was a king and is an immortal grey area character doesn't mean that he's not going to be self centered and selfish in his motivations. He's not a pure innocent after all; his reason for going after Demona doesn't have to be just to do the world a favor.



LADY BALTIMORE - You wrote: [What was in Dominique that he liked?]

Well lets see - she's a long legged redhead frenchwoman who's interested in him and isn't asking a lot of questions about his past. :-) What other reason does he need? :-) :-)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, September 7, 2002 12:57:21 AM
IP: 12.88.87.155

***Bud-Clare walks in and lights a candle.*** My father finally died today. I'm glad that it's finally over; it's been nine months, when the doctors said he probably wouldn't live more than two, and he was in pretty miserable shape nearly that whole time. I wasn't overly fond of him, but... I wish him well on his journey.
So... I'll be away for awhile. Try not to have any really fascinating conversations while I'm gone, 'kay?

Lady Baltimore> "What was in Dominique that he liked?"
*snickers* You know how sometimes people say that they feel like they've known a person their whole lives, even though they've just met, and they always take it as some kind of good omen? Same thing. Poor bastard never knew what hit him. :)
(Did he actually say something similar in the episode? It's been awhile since I saw it. The only reason I thought of that now is that I just read a fanfic which used that particular cliche.)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, September 7, 2002 12:30:08 AM
IP: 129.21.10.15

*lol* She has pages on multiple freeservers. I guess she ran out of room and decided to put that one comic on a different one. Does she have the main comic series page working again? I e-mailed her about it being down a few months ago, and she said she didn't have the time/money to move it elsewhere.

*hugs IRC Goliath*

Vashkoda
Friday, September 6, 2002 08:54:18 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Shauntell - try here instead http://www.geocities.com/josefiii/gargs/danov95.html
IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Friday, September 6, 2002 08:05:53 PM
IP: 207.126.67.60

This is completely off the subject - and I've not been in here in years . . . but I have a huge favor to ask of anyone who might have an answer;
On this website, www.mars.spaceports.com/~gargoyle/comics/comics.html, there are scanned comics from the Disney Adventures Magazine. I'm trying to copy them to disk so I can have them, because I don't. And there is one story called "All Hallow's Eve" that simply won't come up. It keeps saying page not available on every link.
PLEASE!! PLEASE!! PLEASE!! If someone, anyone has any info on that sight, or even on that particular comic, and if they have it in good condition still, I will BUY IT from you!!! But the link won't come up and I want it SOO BAD!!!!! If anyone knows who the sight owner is, please give me his or her email.
To get to that sight, you go to the bottom of Station 8 and go to the link below "Avalon Now!" and above the "Gathering of the Gargoyles" link, but I can't remember the icon name. You'll go to 'comics' and find a link that says Scanned Gargoyles Comics, or something like that, and a list of all the different Disney Adventures Gargoyles comics will come up. "All Hallows Eve" is the one that doesn't work and the one that I want.
Please, if anyone can get it to work for me, or if anyone has any info on the site owner so I can contact them, please, please let me know??!
I would really, trully, greatly appreciate it! *_*!
Later.

SHauntell

Shauntell - [mariadestine@worldnet.att.net]
Layton, Utah, USA
Friday, September 6, 2002 06:28:34 PM
IP: 12.72.226.188

Sanctuary. I liked this episode muchly . . . muchly, indeed.

Although, I wonder, why did Macbeth fall for Demona? Enough so that he married her nearly straight off? Not saying I'm skeptical of this, I'm actually curious. What was in Dominique that he liked?

Come to think of it . . . how was the plan started up, anyhow? Did Thailog figure Demona could charm Macbeth into a marriage? Seems an odd thing to figure, although certainly not impossible. Could Macbeth had already have been attracted to Demona . . .?

I namely go toward this because . . . love is such an unpredictable thing, it's not very practical to put it into your plans before it's even there . . .

And if other people have already come up with this one (as doubtless they have) . . . *shrug* Well . . .

But anyway. Back to the topic on hand.

I liked this episode, because of . . . well, one, I like Demona/Macbeth fights. They're just amusing. ^^ I just generally liked the dynamic of it all, too. I wish I could be more specific, but . . . well, my memory isn't the best, and it's been a few weeks . . .

I distinctly remember liking it, though.

Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Friday, September 6, 2002 03:58:41 PM
IP: 206.215.11.32

What soap opera do you watch> Not a fan of the soap operas. i just remember when i was a kid we had only one TV and every day I would beg my mom to forego her soaps and let me watch the Disney Afternoon. Usually I would be able to annoy her enough through the first hour that she would let me watch the next half hour. But seriously, if "Sanctuary" was a tad bit more cheezy and campy, it would be a soap.

Did the Up-to-Date website help?>
Yes, yes it did. thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Airwalker> [jealousy is a stretch.]
I don't think so, whenever Macbeth's life seems good and happy and her's is in shambles, she might come by get pissed and do some damage. Macbeth just doesn't seem like the type of guy who would just go after Demona unless he thought he would be doing the world a fovor by killing her. So I'm assuming that every time he hunted her, she must have done something, directly or indirectly, that pissed him off.
Illumnati> Yea, you're probably right about that. But it would still be interesting to see what he thinks of Duval.

Excalibur. i think Bud-claire's analysis was pretty accurate, but I'll save it for the "Pendragon" spinoff.


jimmy
Friday, September 6, 2002 03:53:54 PM
IP: 172.159.4.146

Sanctuary:

Just watched it, so it's still fresh in memory. I liked this episode mainly because of MacBeth and Thailog. One guy gets screwed, the other guy gets screwed somewhat but ends up getting the girl, even though he doesn't love her anyway. Pretty funny theme.

Mac gets pissed after finding out he married Demona, and where does he go? Where else but to get his trenchcoat armor outfit. It's hard to believe with all that armory laying around that place, he didn't bother to pick up a few guns and smokebombs himself. But I suppose guns blazing would have been overkill.

Thailog has some funny lines. To Angela: "Well aren't you spunky." And then, "Team work is so over rated." The first time I saw this episode, it didn't occur to me that he'd gained some body armor. Thailog's plan to have Demona and MacBeth kill each other falls through. He should've known Demona and Mac have tangoed more than once, hence he would have come up with something more fool proof.

The end is really good. Perhaps MacBeth will find true love again someday aside for his "endless existence." (Suddenly I wonder what would happen to him if he went into space and took his helmet off, but anyways...). Thailog recovers, by coming back for Demona. Making Demona think he never did love her wouldn't be the best thing to do right now since she is still alive. Knowing he didn't love her, would make Demona come after him, and that is not something Thailog wants, because he isn't immortal (technically speaking). But that'll all come later anyways, in "The Reckoning."

-------------------

Jimmy> Did the Up-to-Date website help?

Matt> "if Gargoyles comes back on the air with new episodes, it'll be on Toon Disney" Nah. I don't get Toon Disney. That wouldn't be fair to me! :) But I see what you mean with the censoring and all. It's a shame. Even if I did, I probably wouldn't watch it because it wouldn't be the same.

Jim R.
Friday, September 6, 2002 12:32:58 PM
IP: 65.173.83.220


Jurgan]---"Would that be the tape of the leica reel of Bad Guys that Greg specifically asked that no one tape?"
No just an old VHS tape of an anime adventure about a chipmunk that I'm gonna loan to Airwalker. "I'd like to see a Macbeth spin-off! " Greg might like that idea, of course he already has a handful of spin offs.


Todd]---"but also that the original Deirdre was a contemporary of Cuchulain's and a part, if a tangential part, of his legend)."
I thought his lady love's name was Emer?

Airwalker]---"have the full realization of who he had been kissing hit him, and go "EWWWWWWW!" right before he heads off to get some very strong alcohol. :-) "
I can't see him as the type to do that. Who knows maybe the thought Demona was a good kisser."Love is blinding. (I don't believe love is blind)] Don't forget stupid. I keep adding that in everytime I see the episode and hear Macbeth say that line. :-) :-) "
I like to add this line "Love makes you do the wacky." Yes I try to fit a Buffy quote into my every day speech.




Jimmy]---"Like a stand-alone ep. of a soap opera."
What soap operas do you watch? Passions?

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
O-town, Fla, USA
Friday, September 6, 2002 11:31:09 AM
IP: 67.25.55.206

Airwalker> "You suggestion that he might pursue power after AVALON as a way of asserting independence is an interesting one but I'm not sure that it would really work. Does he even know that he had been under the Weird Sisters control?"
I hadn't even thought of the mind control that the Sisters used on him. I was just refering to the original meddling in his life, tricking him into becoming immortal and such. And obviously I'm not saying that this was the main reason he wanted Excalibur, or even a big reason, or that he would have been consciously aware of it at all. No one ever does anything for just one reason, and rarely even for just two reasons; usually in addition to the big reasons, there are lots of little ones, too, that you totally aren't aware of. I just think that maybe, on a psychological level, the idea of having Excalibur appealed to him a bit, sort of like having a security blanket. (I'm certain that was a very bizarre analogy, but I've been up all night and can't be held responsible. I'm going to bed now.)

*collapses, while wondering how many "l"s are supposed to be in "collapses", but figures she probably got it right. Maybe*

Bud-Clare
Friday, September 6, 2002 08:14:21 AM
IP: 129.21.10.32

JIMMY - You wrote: [I'm guessing that every time one of them died or something really bad happened in his life (probably caused by Demona in a jealous fit) he would get pissed and hunt her down.]

Somehow I don't think that he had that much contact with Demona over the 900 years they both lived through. So I don't think that anything that might have happened to any of his love interests was a result of Demona doing something to them to spite him. (It's not out of the realm of possibility but in general I think that she tried to keep as much distance as possible between the two of them for a lot of those 900 years. Why take the risk of almost getting killed for nothing?)

Also I don't think that she would have done anything to him out of "jealousy"; spite, yes but jealousy? What would he have for her to be jealous about? She has no feelings for him except hate so jealousy is a stretch.

You wrote: [I wonder if he's a member of the illuminati, or if he knows about Percival aka Duval.]

I think that he probably knows about the Illuminati but that he isn't a member. Its not something that I think he would be interested in pursuing and besides I'm not sure that they would be that willing to offer him membership; his immortality does come with a lot of baggage.



TODD - You wrote: [Also, Thailog seems much more eager to actually kill his enemies, as he showed time after time (wanting to kill all three of his "fathers" in "Double Jeopardy" or wanting to massacre the entire clan in "The Reckoning").]

He is more willing to go to extremes and kill when it isn't really necessary but then again all the people that he's tried to kill are ones that he has personal issues with. He seems to have more to prove and less to start with than Xanatos so doesn't have the luxury of being able to play games to the same extent that Xanatos does. (And again he has tons of issues - he's probably closer to Demona in that regard than he might have thought.)

Everything seems to play into Thailog wanting to prove himself as a real being who can earn the respect of his primary father (Xanatos) while at the same time defeating him completely. All the people he's tried to kill are people who play against that - Sevarius is a reminder that he started out as an experiment and that in many respects that is what he is seen as by most of the people who know he exists. Xanatos is his primary father (and the one I think he'd most likely consider his father, far more than he might think of Goliath) and is his standard and his obstacle in everything. It could be to Thailog that if Xanatos exists then Thailog will always be nothing more than a cheap imitation in comparison. But at the same time as his true father Thailog wants to prove himself to Xanatos before he gets rid of him; sort of two threads working together in his mind. Goliath is in the same boat as Xanatos - a constant reminder as long as he's around that Thailog is a clone. With Xanatos Thailog is a clone of his mind and with Goliath he is a clone of his body. Plus there could be the personal hurt of instant rejection - Goliath was moving in to try and kill him within 10 seconds of seeing him.

Still at the same time I have to wonder if he really was trying to kill them all those times - its pretty convenient that some ways to escape were left open to his victims; ways that Xanatos and Thailog would have been very likely to recognize in advance. In DOUBLE JEOPARDY he left the gas and the magnetic disk in the chamber together with a slender wristed human in oversized shackles. It could be that he didn't mind if they died but that he was leaving an escape route for them at the same time. (Let's not forget that he was willing to work easily again with Sevarius in THE RECKONING so its a strong possibility that while he might personally hate him, he's willing to take a Xanatosian design to him and not kill him over that hatred.)

As for THE RECKONING his first move to kill Angela is really a ploy to get Demona to make a choice and then to prove his power; it wasn't really anything personal towards Angela although we could say that subconsciously he'd be upset that Goliath accepted her as his daughter but rejected him instantly on seeing him as a son. (By the time Goliath came around to seeing him as a son it was too late; you can't take back a first impression.) But that might be taking it a bit too deep in explination. Also his willingness to destroy the clan is tempered by the fact that he's basically created their replacements before he made an attempt to kill them so you could say that he isn't really eliminating an asset because he'd still have a Clan and the potential of a Clan around in the form of his Clone clan.

You wrote: [Xanatos is less eager to kill - not that he's soft-hearted, but rather he's very practical and from his perspective, dead people aren't at all useful to him. He'd rather have them alive so that he can find some way of exploiting them somehow.]

Then again Xanatos does have an older perspective; he's concerned about getting old and about still having an edge but at the same time that concern with age in general might make him a bit more careful in his schemes and behaviors. That might be how Thailog might see things; also Xanatos has the benefit of success to help give him leeway in how he acts and in what he does in his schemes. If he were trying to establish himself he might not be as practical as he is. (I'd love to see early Xanatos in the process of getting started and working out his schemes when he was actually in the equivilent of Thailog's position. I wonder how similier they might be in behavior.)

You wrote: [And even then, I imagine that Xanatos would have investigated non-lethal methods of helping himself to Demona and Macbeth's assets before trying the "have them kill each other" method.]

But then again Xanatos doesn't have any issues to resolve with Demona that Thailog does. Thailog does realize that Demona hooked up with him mainly because she's seeing Goliath rather than him. Besides being insulting to him in general (and something he pays her back for in THE RECKONING) it also crosses a red line in his personality/family issues. That might have made him more eager to pursue the "kill her and get her out of my hair" plan that he went with.

You wrote: [Of course, Thailog shows just how twisted he is in "Sanctuary" in another way, when he leers at Angela a little]

Well to be fair its possible that he didn't know that she was Goliath's daughter and his sort of Half Sister although its just as possible that he might have guessed it the moment that he saw her - after all she's almost identical to Demona but with Goliath's coloring; it'd be pretty hard not to guess who's child she is.

I think he just acted like that and gave her a look to freak out Goliath a bit. (And a little would be curiousity - after all how often do new Gargoyles pop up that he'd run into?) Xanatos does also give some interest when he first meets her in CLOUD FATHERS although it isn't leering but it is sort of similier in feel, sort of a way to throw Goliath off balance.



MATT - You wrote: [they have a new commercial on for Gargoyles where they show various clips of the show, etc. at the end of it you hear the annoucer say, "Catch the Gargoyles tonight, Gathering at 11:30, 10:30 central!" ]

I caught that commercial earlier today; I have to say that it is probably the first time I've seen a worthy GARGOYLES commercial on TOON DISNEY. Its near the level of syndication commericals for the series although not completely. But its better than anything to date that they have had on the channel for the series.

I'd love if someone could capture it and post it up as a Quicktime file. (Then again I'd love to get my hands on all of the syndication commericals for the series in the same clear format. So far I've only found one in the Avalon Archives and its a little cut off at the beginning.)

You wrote: [my feelings on TD keep changing.]

Mine too. On the one hand they are sort of recognizing The Gathering with free stuff and are starting to do much better commercials for the series but at the same time they are doing stuff that takes away from that too. For example while they now have that good commercial hyping GARGOYLES at 11:30 what isn't mentioned is that last week it was on for two episodes from 11-12 and now is on for only one episode a night. (And to add insult to injury the episode that was on immediately after seeing that commercial today was a TGC episode - GENERATIONS!)

You wrote: [anyway, i've become convinced that if Gargoyles comes back on the air with new episodes, it'll be on Toon Disney]

I'm convinced that outside of direct to video/DVD the only place that GARGOYLES or any spinoff of the series is going to appear is on cable. And that most probably means either THE DISNEY CHANNEL or TOON DISNEY.

I have high hopes for TOON DISNEY in the future although recently I'm not sure how to look at it. After hearing last week that they kept TARZAN off the channel because it was too intense it made me wonder if the channel would be capable of having new episodes of GARGOYLES without extreme S&P butchering/dumbing it down.

Still TOON DISNEY right now is a lot like early CN; so anything could be possible. I have hopes that one of these days Disney and TOON DISNEY in particular might seize on the series and try to build a primetime (or latenight) block around it.

With all that potential in airtime, all that is really necessary is for them to start producing some original programming and making use of the primetime airtime that they have while not letting S&P strangle anything that they do. If everything on the network has to be along the S&P level for BONKERS and DARKWING DUCK then they aren't going to have much success with anything they do in primetime when it has to go up against the CN lineup. Some leeway has to be established - it may not be 1994 Disney Afternoon DEADLY FORCE leeway but it should at the very least be in the area of HUNTERS MOON/THE JOURNEY.



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [he hasn't truly had control over his own life since the Sisters first started screwing with him all those years ago.]

Except that the power that he was looking for appeared to him in the form of Arthur and Griff; he wasn't actually looking for Excalibur until he heard Arthur and Company were looking for it and mention where it was located. Before that I think that its more likely that he was looking for that random unknown power because he felt that it was there and he wanted it. Perhaps to give himself something to do, perhaps because it couldn't hurt to have more power for an uncertain eternal future, or perhaps for some other reason.

And as for Excalibur he went after that more because it appealed to him on a childhood fantasy level and because to a slight extent both the Lady of the Lake and his henchmen helped to put the idea in his mind with their wordings and expinations of whats going on.

You suggestion that he might pursue power after AVALON as a way of asserting independence is an interesting one but I'm not sure that it would really work. Does he even know that he had been under the Weird Sisters control? Arthur recognized him but we don't know if was filled in on what happened to him and what he did on Avalon. He might still not know what happened. Demona after all didn't find out until THE RECKONING and then only because Angela told her. We don't have any evidence that Arthur and Macbeth hung around for a while to fill each other in on the minor details or that Goliath told Macbeth anything in Paris.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, September 6, 2002 01:17:39 AM
IP: 12.88.85.57

Airwalker> "[Love is blinding. (I don't believe love is blind)]
Don't forget stupid. I keep adding that in everytime I see the episode and hear Macbeth say that line."

And mentally ill sometimes, too. (I was thinking of my parents' relationship just a few minutes ago. *shudders*)

"what else does he have to do but go treasure/power hunting?"
It occurs to me that Macbeth has another interesting reason for wanting what is basically the ultimate legendary symbol of power... he hasn't truly had control over his own life since the Sisters first started screwing with him all those years ago. First the Sisters were malipulating him directly, and ever since then he's been more or less at the mercy of his immortality. If he had managed to actually claim Excalibur, it might have made him feel like he was regaining some control over is life (even if, in fact, it was just slapping a band-aid on a gaping wound).

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, September 6, 2002 12:47:21 AM
IP: 129.21.10.32

Toon Disney > Hey, not bad. "Gathering at...." Very clever. At the most, it's a wink at the fandom. At the very least, it's evidence that TD is paying more attention to the show. And as for that episode of Tail Spin, I don't suppose one of those bullets hit Baloo and he was unconscious in a pool of his own blood?

Scott Iskow - [smiskow@lycos.com]
Thursday, September 5, 2002 11:09:26 PM
IP: 68.50.37.201

Thailog> i too thought Thailog was Phaelog or something until i saw Elisa write down his name and then i realized it was Goliath backwards. i kinda wondered where the name Phaelog came from too until i saw Sanctuary...

Toon Disney> my feelings on TD keep changing. on the bad side they over censor many eps and refuse to air Deadly Force which is ridiculous, even more so cuz i watched an episode of TailSpin the other day that had bad guys firing machine guns directly at Baloo and narrowly missing him!!!! they can show that, but NOT Deadly Force??
on the other hand, they are getting better. they sent us those t-shirts for the Gathering and (this is cool) they have a new commercial on for Gargoyles where they show various clips of the show, etc. at the end of it you hear the annoucer say, "Catch the Gargoyles tonight, Gathering at 11:30, 10:30 central!" no way that him saying "gathering" was an accident or coincidence! either he said it cuz of the episode "The Gathering" or cuz of the fan get togethers. anyway, i've become convinced that if Gargoyles comes back on the air with new episodes, it'll be on Toon Disney...

matt
Thursday, September 5, 2002 09:34:17 PM
IP: 216.178.8.58

Re Thailog: I do think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos. For one thing, I've never heard Xanatos give an evil chuckle while carrying out one of his schemes.

Also, Thailog seems much more eager to actually kill his enemies, as he showed time after time (wanting to kill all three of his "fathers" in "Double Jeopardy" or wanting to massacre the entire clan in "The Reckoning"). Xanatos is less eager to kill - not that he's soft-hearted, but rather he's very practical and from his perspective, dead people aren't at all useful to him. He'd rather have them alive so that he can find some way of exploiting them somehow. (Remember, that's the ultimate reason why he never killed Goliath and his clan; he knew that they would come in pretty handy while they were alive - as "City of Stone", for example, demonstrated). The one murder scheme of Thailog's in the series that Xanatos would seriously consider was getting Macbeth and Demona to kill each other - because here it isn't simple malevolence but the fact that if they do kill each other, he gets all of their goods. (And even then, I imagine that Xanatos would have investigated non-lethal methods of helping himself to Demona and Macbeth's assets before trying the "have them kill each other" method).

Of course, Thailog shows just how twisted he is in "Sanctuary" in another way, when he leers at Angela a little - although, to be perfectly fair to him, he doesn't know (presumably) at the time that she's Goliath's daughter and therefore his own half-sister. (But even if he did know, I doubt that he'd care; given everything else that he does in the series, I doubt that he'd draw the line at incest).

Todd Jensen - [ merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 5, 2002 08:03:36 PM
IP: 65.56.169.217

Sanctuary> I'm thinking they were sent there since Thailog was there. And they were in the same skiff so it's no surprise that they ended up in the same place. But this was a good episode. Like a stand-alone ep. of a soap opera.
Another appearance of Macbeth who shows that though he is is only human (immortal, but human) he can still kick some tail. When he makes the armory just pop out of his bookshelves I was thinking to myself: "This guy rawks!" Greg said that he had several love interests over the years. I'm guessing that every time one of them died or something really bad happened in his life (probably caused by Demona in a jealous fit) he would get pissed and hunt her down. Other than that I'd imagine he has a lot of adventures. I wonder if he's a member of the illuminati, or if he knows about Percival aka Duval. He is obviously an Arthur fan so I wonder what his reaction would be to what the Grailkeeper has become.
Not much else to say that hasn't already been said. It's a shame Elisa never got to see more of Paris and Thailog's armor was pretty cool, even though it didn't really do anything.

Jimmy
Thursday, September 5, 2002 04:22:59 PM
IP: 172.173.152.120

TODD - You wrote: [Of course, one of the Golem-builders could have met Brooklyn during his Timedancer period.]

It could be a strong possibility. Brooklyn could have been inspiration for the first Golem, or any random Golem, or even the Golem of Prague. But I still think that while the legend of Gargoyles might have been an inspiration that its highly unlikely that MOST Golems were based on an actually seen Gargoyle. It seems more likely that they were either influenced by Gargoyle legends or by the stories of previous Golems.

(And while everything tends to be interconnected in the Gargoyles Universe it would be nice to once in a while have something that wasn't directly influenced by the Manhattan Clan in some fashion; it would be interesting if the Golem of Prague wasn't created just because Rabbi Loew saw Brooklyn the night before or had a run in with Demona sometime earlier in his life. It would be nice if he might have just heard of a legend of stone protectors in general and used that as inspiration to build his own stone protector without ever having actually seen a Gargoyle.)



JIM R - You wrote: [I envy you for the time you must have to write such epics. :)]

Well that is the upside to unemployment. :-) (I hope to change that soon but it isn't easy finding a job in Technology these days. Still I'm optimistic. :-) )



TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [Back in the day, Disney Afternoon did that halfscreen thing with its end credits. Plus they ran all four shows end credits at once, so I never saw how it was spelled.]

I hated that! I understand that rolling credits isn't something that keeps the audience around for the next show but still people put work and effort into the show; at least put their names in a bigger font when your speeding it down the screen. :-)

You wrote: [Love is blinding. (I don't believe love is blind)]

Don't forget stupid. I keep adding that in everytime I see the episode and hear Macbeth say that line. :-) :-)

You wrote: [Why DID Avalon send Macbeth and Demona to Paris?]

Pretty much mainly so that Demona could run into Thailog and so Macbeth could run into Demona in Human form. (He had to find out about the transformations eventually. No point in keeping him the only one in the dark when everyone else in the cast knows about it.)

What makes me wonder is why Thailog chose to go to Paris in particular? I mean I can understand his going to Europe to establish himself and get some distance from his fathers but at the same time I never would have figured him as a fit for Paris. I would have thought that he'd be more likely to go to London if in Europe and to outright base himself in LA if he was going to pick anywhere in the world to set up operations. (He strikes me as an LA sort of person. :-) )



JURGAN - You wrote: [He's actually the most evil of all the villains on the show.]

He's not evil; he's amoral and self-interested. And of course he's one of the more interesting characters in the series too. :-) But honestly he's not following the hallmark of a truly evil villain - doing evil things for no particular reason than to upset the hero. Thailog always has a plan and an ultimate goal. We get to see the individual plans and short term goals but we haven't actually seen or heard what his ultimate life goal is. We've been given a glimpse here and there but not the entire picture.

You wrote: [Demona was an idealist with good intentions but bad methods, and Xanatos had at least some people he cared for, but Thailog cared about nothing other than himself.]

I wouldn't call Demona an idealist at the 20th century point of her life but I would call her ultimately good intentioned, at least in her own head.

As for Thailog, why should he really care for anyone else given his upbringing AND experience? His upbringing was to want profit and a Xanatosian point of view. And his experience is that he is seen either as a lab rat, a toy, an abomination, and as a slightly improved copy (respectively by Sevarius, Xanatos, Goliath, and Demona). In fact the only one who really ever said a kind word to him was Elisa which might explain why he went through the trouble of having Delilah created rather than just an outright Demona clone.

Besides again we don't know what his ultimate goal is. Does he want immortality? Does he want world domination ala FUTURE TENSE Xanatos? Does he just want to show up (or even impress) all of his fathers? (That fits perfectly with the Xanatos in VOWS angle.) Or does he just want to prove that he is his own person and not a copy of anyone?

All we've gotten are glimpses into his ideas. He wanted to be on equal footing with Xanatos, and have loyal footsoldiers (the Clones, which Greg mentioned was more Thailog's idea that Demona went along with) and a trustworthy likeminded companion (Delilah, who he didn't program to be his equal but who would be more loyal and who he would be able to share secrets much more easily with than Demona; in fact he could never really consider Demona trustworthy. Certainly not on the level that Goliath finds Elisa or Xanatos finds Fox and Sevarius finds....uh, whatever. In fact its probably a good bet that while Thailog programmed her with loyalty and "love" to him alone, he probably did put her on an intelligence level that would be more or less like his; she might be just as cunning if not as ruthless, sort of a combination of Fox and Elisa in thought and attitude rather than just an airhead sex toy).

But we don't know what he is actually after - it would be interesting to find out. Could all this be an amoral Xanatosian way of earning the respect or at least admiration of his fathers? Or his way of proving himself by crushing them with Xanatos in particular as his primary father?

You wrote: [I don't like villains being one-dimensional cliches, but Thailog's selfishness contrasts with the typically protective gargoyle naturally.]

This is one of the reasons that I think that Gargoyle protection instinct is mostly cultural and nurtured. If it were an overpowering instinct then Thailog (and Demona) would probably be chain smoking coffee guzzlers who would spend their nights with nervous ticks and days dreaming of protection. :-) He doesn't protect because he wasn't raised to that ideal. And without that cultural enforcement he has no desire to even head in that direction with his life. Goliath after all offered it to him and as he approached the idea as anyone who wasn't raised on it would - with skepticism and ridicule.

You wrote: [Macbeth had been through absolute hell ever since he disappeared 900 years ago.]

The first fifty years would have been really bad. And the fifty years after that he would have been consumed by revenge and the hunt. But after that hundred year period, I think he would have calmed down and while not moving on with his life, at the very least try to deal with his life as it was. I don't think that he spent every moment of the last 900 years hunting Demona or that he was completely alone all that time. He might have had periods of being alone and times when he either actively pursued her or ran into her but otherwise I think that he lived life as well as an immortal could. And I think that he probably had some interesting times, and some fun. Sort of like HIGHLANDER. :-)

I'm not sure though if he might have had a love or two in the 900 hundred year period; its probable that he did though. I think that after the first hundred or two hundred years he might have found someone and that he might have had a few loves over time although we aren't talking about a huge number here; I'm pretty sure he spent most of the time as a bachelor with an occasional girlfriend or wife here and there. And I think that he got disillusioned everytime someone he loved died. I do think that he probably hadn't had a love interest for at least a century before SANCTUARY.

You wrote: [This is one reason why I don't particularly care for Pendragon, because Macbeth is played as a one-dimensional, power-mad villain.]

I have other reasons to like PENDRAGON that I'll mention when it comes up in a few weeks. Still I think that the Macbeth at the end of SANCTUARY and his behavior in PENDRAGON fit. First is that just because he discovered that he isn't dead inside and that he has hope doesn't mean that he's going to stop pursuing his personal hobbies. And besides hunting Demona which he seems to have given up on (or at the very least put to the side for now with the realization that he isn't dead inside) what else does he have to do but go treasure/power hunting?

Not to mention that he does have ambition that is a strong part of his character. He sensed a power coming in PENDRAGON and he wanted it; he could recognize it and he is still a king at the end of the day in his mind, same as Arthur. He would want the advantage. Besides what is an immortal supposed to do with his time? Endlessly read Shakespeare? Teach classes? Give lectures? Adventuring, treasure hunting, power searching, these are all things that Immortals need as part of their lives. With the absence of love (or at least other immortals to hang out with) they need something to fill the time.

This together with the ambition in his nature combined to give us PENDRAGON. Besides if he were really a villain in the episode he would have continued to fight Arthur for Excalibur after the dragon was destroyed. He followed his own words as an honest man and acknowledged that he was wrong and that Arthur was right. He didn't continue the battle because he realized he was wrong, that his ambition had gotten the better of him, and that he wasn't the one true king (a thought that would appeal to him on a childhood fantasy level). He had found out what he was seeking in the episode, had the adventure and spent some of his endless time. That night would produce further adventures in the future as well as memories to help get him through the next thousand years. Or should he have stayed at home with a bottle of whiskey and a book of Scottish history? :-)



FAN - You wrote: [As I watched, I wondered, "'Did' Demona really love Thailog?" When the episode was over I came to the conclusion that no, she did not.]

I think that she thought she loved him although it was obvious to everyone including Thailog that she was really still carrying her torch for Goliath and using Thailog as a substitute. Its probably another reason that he wanted to replace her just as she was using him as a replacement.

In a way her relationship with Thailog was good therapy for her; the Goliath romance angle of her life was long over even if she still had feelings for him deep inside. This way she was forced to finally break with it just as Goliath broke completely with his feelings for her in VOWS. Her VOWS was THE RECKONING. Now she can move onto some other relationship just as Goliath has. (Although since she has one more love interest before she ends up with her final love I wonder if it would really be love or just more denial laced with casual sex? :-) :-) )



MOONCAT - You wrote: [Thailog is so wonderfully baaaad. And I love his outfit. Yum. Such a contrast to the simple, almost barbaric clothing of the other gargoyles, Thailog's fashion sense is wonderfully high fantasy.]

I think that it more of him acting subconsciously like Xanatos; Xanatos has an exo-frame and Thailog doesn't need one so he just has an outright suit of armor. (He's also sort of acting out a bit like Goliath subconsciously does too - after all in EYE OF THE STORM Goliath's inner self gets a suit of armor too.)

You wrote: [my favorite part, Macbeth and Demona make out!!! Okay, so it was all part of a diabolical plan, I still think those two are fated to be each other's great love.]

I always had this vision of Macbeth watching everyone leave after SANCTUARY and then turning around, putting his hand to his lips, have the full realization of who he had been kissing hit him, and go "EWWWWWWW!" right before he heads off to get some very strong alcohol. :-)

I don't think that they would be their great loves; too much has passed between them for that. I could see them sort of patching things up slightly and at least coming to an understanding of some sort. A truce; and while they would never really be friends, I could see them being allies again in the far future.

I think that its more likely that Demona's final love is going to be Zafiro 2198. That match struck me when I saw how Greg split up the cast for G2198. With the two of them going into space and both of them being able to be awake 24 hours a day it just sort of fit. Of course I could be wrong. But it would be sort of funny to see how Samson might react to his "Grandmother" getting into a relationship with his best friend. :-)

(I put Grandmother in quotes since we don't know exactly who Samson is - Demona's Great Grandson or Great Great Grandson. I figure also that some of the clan descendents might just decide to nickname Demona that given how old she is and that she would really be the last surviving descendent of the original Clan and of the 20th century survivors. It'd be fun to see her reaction to that nickname. :-) )

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, September 5, 2002 11:34:57 AM
IP: 12.88.115.32

Sanctuary -- mmm! One of my ultimate favorite episodes. The delicious mix of love and treachery, passion and betrayal. Good stuff. Advances relations, reveals secrets, and best of all I get to watch Macbeth and Demona make out! Happy sigh... Thailog is so wonderfully baaaad. And I love his outfit. Yum. Such a contrast to the simple, almost barbaric clothing of the other gargoyles, Thailog's fashion sense is wonderfully high fantasy. You have to wonder, who made those clothes for him? Does he have a special tailor or did he make them himself? Also, we see the beginning of Nightstone Unlimited. woo hoo! And an interesting note is that Macbeth marries under the name Lennox Macbeth instead of his regular alias of Lennox Macduff. Hmm... Oh yeah... and again, my favorite part, Macbeth and Demona make out!!! Okay, so it was all part of a diabolical plan, I still think those two are fated to be each other's great love. Someday, I hope they have a proper wedding night... sigh.

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Thursday, September 5, 2002 01:15:46 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Taleweaver: <DID Avalon send Macbeth and Demona to Paris? (The nightlife, the food, what?) I've tried imagining why Avalon needed to send two villains to Paris.)>
Because Thailog was there, I believe. Just because Avalon sends you "where you need to be" doesn't neccessarily mean that it is so you can save the day.

Lynati
Thursday, September 5, 2002 12:45:55 AM
IP: 65.66.159.96

<She used love and sentimentality against Goliath, but was blind to Thailog using those same tools against her. Love is blinding.> I've just watched the episode. I enjoyed it very much. As I watched, I wondered, "'Did' Demona really love Thailog?" When the episode was over I came to the conclusion that no, she did not. She didn't love "him", she loved what she thought he was: another Goliath without his sense of morals and protectionist bent. It wasn't "true" love. Does anyone agree with me?
Fan
Thursday, September 5, 2002 12:12:13 AM
IP: 63.225.177.188

Sanctuary. Yes, that was a great episode.

I liked Thailog from the beginning because of how complex his plans are. He's actually the most evil of all the villains on the show. Demona was an idealist with good intentions but bad methods, and Xanatos had at least some people he cared for, but Thailog cared about nothing other than himself. Actually, I suppose his complete amorality resembles Xanatos pre "Eye of the Beholder," which to me was the first step in his gradual reform. Generally, I don't like villains being one-dimensional cliches, but Thailog's selfishness contrasts with the typically protective gargoyle naturally. On spelling: Actually, for the longest time I thought his name was "Phaelog." I don't know why, I guess I just didn't here it correctly, but I also thought that his name was the title of the episode "Double Jeopardy," so when I saw it spelled as "Thailog" online, I assumed it was a typo, since I was sure I seen "Phaelog" as the episode's title.

Demona was a bit of a one-noter here. However, I did like the way she was deceived. Goliath assumed that Thailog was being twisted by Demona, when in fact it was the other way around. I think Goliath always tried to keep up hope for anyone he could. He had reluctantly given up on Demona by this point, but he still considered Thailog his responsibility.

Goliath's relationships with both Angela and Elisa are advanced nicely, but I don't think I have anything to add on these.

And then there's my all-time favorite character, Macbeth. I've even written fanfiction MSTs with this guy, I love him so much. Someone asked why send Demona and Macbeth to Paris. Hmm... well, I assume that they each already had holdings here. Why Paris, I'm not sure, but they had to be together. This stop did wonders for Macbeth. Macbeth had been through absolute hell ever since he disappeared 900 years ago. Now, finally, he falls in love with someone. Of course, it turns out that this person is only setting him up for betrayal, but Goliath nicely points out that this proves that Macbeth is not dead inside, and he finally begins to find a reason to live again. This is one reason why I don't particularly care for Pendragon, because Macbeth is played as a one-dimensional, power-mad villain. It works in Lighthouses since Macbeth is still obsessed with killing Demona above all else, but by Pendragon, it seems like his priorities would have changed and power wouldn't be so important to him. This is, after all, the last time we see him go after Demona. I see it almost as a follow-up to City of Stone in that regard.

This raises another question, namely: what did Macbeth do over these 900 years? All right, his main goal was killing Demona, but I have to wonder how many times they actually met up? A single individual can be near impossible to track, even moreso during medieval times. It leaves me wondering what happened when the trail went completely cold. Did Macbeth ever slow down and stop the hunt temporarily? Maybe he even fell in love with someone else for a time. He could have taken an entire lifetime off from the hunt, and then taken it up again afterwards. I also wonder if he ever worked with the Canmores. Probably not, because he would object to their desire to kill all gargoyles, but he might have taken advantage of their resources from time to time. Demona's life seems more clear. She kept looking for ways to gain power and eliminate humans, and so there was always something to investigate, like the praying gargoyle and the fulfillment spell (of course that brings up the question of would she have killed herself with that plague by killing Macbeth, which I am proud to say I thought of on my own, even if other people thought it up too). But with Macbeth, there's so much unknown. Forget Dark Ages (no offense to fans thereof, I picked one at random), I'd like to see a Macbeth spin-off!

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 5, 2002 12:09:18 AM
IP: 206.74.212.254

Hi all,

My schedule is crazy these days. I hope you don't mind if I start the DCV on "Sanctuary" before Greg's ramble.

DCV - "Sanctuary"
The thing I remember from first watching the episode was that Thailog was Goliath spelled backwards. Back in the day, Disney Afternoon did that halfscreen thing with its end credits. Plus they ran all four shows end credits at once, so I never saw how it was spelled. It seemed like such a strange name I wondered where Xanatos came up with it.

Of all the eps with Thailog, this is my favorite. Mainly because he is so deliciously evil. He snowed Macbeth, snowed Demona and kept three gargoyles busy at the same time. I love a villain who can multitask.

It was an interesting seeing Demona get played. She used love and sentimentality against Goliath, but was blind to Thailog using those same tools against her. Love is blinding. (I don't believe love is blind)

When they first showed Notre Dame, my eyebrow went up (If I could physically do that) Notre Dame? A famous home of gargoyles. I didn't know what to expect, but I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a clan protecting the streets of Paris.

This time watching, I did notice the stronger evidence of Goliath and Elisa's relationship. Not just Goliath's gaze her way with Macbeth. I'm talking about the bicep holding by Elisa and the determine look on Goliath to distract Thailog, while Elisa slipped in to stop the immortal pair.

First time around, I did wonder why Goliath was so reluctant to admit Demona was Angela's mother. Shows the big difference between 1990's thinking and 990's thinking. Living in Orange County, children of divorced parents outnumbered children from that sterotypical nuclear family.

I've got to cut the ramble short, but I'll leave with this question. Why DID Avalon send Macbeth and Demona to Paris? (The nightlife, the food, what?) I've tried imagining why Avalon needed to send two villains to Paris.)

Well, TTFN Ta-Ta For Now

Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 10:40:01 PM
IP: 24.205.119.127

Apple has an up to date program? Sweet, I'll do that.
Jimmy
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 08:51:46 PM
IP: 172.142.122.241

Ah, Sanctuary, this was a good episode. I'll have to rewatch it tonight, and post my thoughts about it tomorrow. I usually do on Thursdays anyhow. So far, all I can remember is that it involves Thailog and a scheme about Demona marrying MacBeth which all goes bad to the point where Demona and MacBeth are trying to kill each other again. I liked the episode. Par le vu Francais? Excusemwa my French :)

Jimmy> Have you tried to see whether your iBook's serial number qualifies for Apple's Up-to-Date program. It just may, and you could get 10.2 for $20. (Go to: http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate) Your serial number can found under your keyboard or just go to your Applications folder > Utilities folder > Apple System Profiler. It should tell you right in there.

Airwalker> "Honestly I don't usually intend to type out epics; it just happens." 'Tis OK, I enjoy reading them and fills up the CR more. I envy you for the time you must have to write such epics. :)

Jim R.
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 07:47:57 PM
IP: 65.40.128.42

AIRWALKER - Of course, one of the Golem-builders could have met Brooklyn during his Timedancer period.

Greg posted a memo of his about "Sanctuary", as a prelude to the ramble (which isn't up yet). One interesting tidbit from it is that Demona's human alias was originally intended to be "Dierdre". I can't help but think that that particular alias would have been more appropriate for "The Hound of Ulster" in terms of setting (actually, it would have been doubly appropriate, given not only that Dierdre - properly, Deirdre - is an Irish name, but also that the original Deirdre was a contemporary of Cuchulain's and a part, if a tangential part, of his legend).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 07:00:27 PM
IP: 63.208.41.26

Barbershop> That looked like a mildly entertaining movie, I might watch it. What does Keith David look like anyway? Just curious.

Macintosh> I love this thing. I haven't gotten it online yet since I'll be going to college in 2 or 3 weeks and don't feel like installing AOL, but from what I've seen, it is very impressive. And I just found out that Warcraft 3 installs on both PC's and Mac's from the same CD, happy-day. Now if only I could find my %*@#$%& CD-key I'd be happy. But I have the moral dillemma to face here. I don't have the cash for Jaguar right now, and probably won't for a while. The dilemma here is that if this were a new version of Windows, I would just pirate it, but I have more respect for Jaguar. Sigh, now I must suffer without it. And then there's the problem of all the games I've already bought (like Starcraft) should I pirate the Mac version, or just not get one at all?
The only thing I regret about the Mac so far though is that my "Dotcomics player" doesn't work. I enjoyed having a comic book collection on my computer, but apparently ".exe" files don't work.

Jimmy
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 06:15:41 PM
IP: 172.142.122.241

A new role for Keith David on the big screen... fans of Keith may want to check out Ice Cube's new movie "Barbershop," coming soon to theaters. From the look of things in the preview trailer, Keith plays a bad guy in this one.

Click my name for the official movie site.


Patrick Toman
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 05:45:46 PM
IP: 67.38.240.221

JURGAN - You wrote: [Would that be the tape of the leica reel of Bad Guys that Greg specifically asked that no one tape?]

No. The tape we are talking about is a copy of THE ENCHANTED JOURNEY which is an early 80's anime/cartoon that I was asking about a week or two ago.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 05:16:34 PM
IP: 12.88.88.146

...
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 05:14:21 PM
IP: 12.88.88.146

Spacebabie wrote:

"[Airwalker]---"At this point I'm planning to be there; I do finally want to see the BAD GUYS reel and besides I'd just like to finally make it to one. "

I'll bring the tape anyway."

Would that be the tape of the leica reel of Bad Guys that Greg specifically asked that no one tape? I hope I misread that, because I know Greg wouldn't be happy if that little tidbit got loose.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 03:58:59 PM
IP: 199.79.253.86

JIM R - You wrote: [And I think that is your shortest post to date. :)]

You know, I think it was! Honestly I don't usually intend to type out epics; it just happens. :-)



TODD - You wrote: [I wonder if that means "all the episodes" this time, or just "all the episodes except for 'Deadly Force' again".]

I'm pretty sure that it means everything but DEADLY FORCE. Given the standard that they seem to be shooting for on that channel, I don't think that we'll ever get DEADLY FORCE shown - I mean if TARZAN is too intense to be seen then what are the chances that they'll lighten up just enough to show DEADLY FORCE?



JIMMY - You wrote: [And no, sadly, it did not come with Jaguar since I ordered it from Macmall instead of Apple. Their merchandise is a little older.]

Too bad. Still you might want to invest the $129 to upgrade the system to 10.2; its a huge leap. So much so that they probably should have called it OS XI. A friend of mine brought it with him on his Ibook to AXNY; I must have spent two hours playing around with it. (If you still have any PC's then Jaguar is wonderful; you'll be able to access shared files between the machines without any extra software as long as they are networked together. God, I really have to get myself an Mac!)


MATT - You wrote: [and Airwalker's posts alone keep me busy reading for hours just to catch up! :)]

I don't mean to write epics! Honest! :-)

You wrote: [my guess is that many of these Golems could be attributed to gargoyles and gargoyle clans protecting their territories.]

I don't think so. If you knew the exact nature of the various legends it would be clear that they are dealing with variations on the Clay Construct that we got to see in GOLEM. Most of the legends that I've heard generally talk about the situation that brought about the need for a Golem, its creation, its work, and eventually the need to destroy it because of danger from it or because of its corruption. But all the elements in these legends don't even give the opportunity to play in it having been a Gargoyle or a Gargoyle Clan who helped out.

You wrote: [they are awfully similiar afterall. of course, eventually these clans would be wiped out and the stories of them would end up becoming Golem stories or whatnot...]

The elements of the various stories don't leave leeway to say that they are distorted memories of a Gargoyle that eventually morphed into the Golem legends. They start out clearly with the Golem being either a creation of dirt or clay that is brought about to serve some purpose, that its nature is soulless and that because of that despite the good it did, it would eventually become corrupt and become a danger that would have to be neutralized. It couldn't have been a distorted legend of Gargoyles because aside from being a stone protector key elements between the two just wouldn't match.

You wrote: [Greg once said that whoever created the Golem in the first place might've been inspired by gargoyles, so he made his own stone protector.]

That could be a possibility, that a Gargoyle or the legend of Gargoyles was an inspiration to create a Golem. I think that it was more likely that in the Gargoyles Universe the first person to build a Golem might have heard a legend about Gargoyles and this inspired him to construct his own sort of Golem but I don't think that it was inspiration based on actually having seen a Gargoyle. The Golem legends after all start up about a hundred to two hundred years into the period in which Gargoyles would have been wiped out and in hiding from European society. And to have a Gargoyle or a Clan wandering around in that "sterile" time when people are supposed to have forgotten completely about Gargoyles makes it hard to believe that they would forget; so I think that its more likely that the first Golem might have been inspired by a Gargoyle Story and the Golems after that were inspired by that first Golem.



SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I'll bring the tape anyway.]

And I'll try my best to make an appearance! :-)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 11:23:18 AM
IP: 12.88.117.103

Lexxy and Kai got married!!! Congrats to the both of them.

Airwalker]---"At this point I'm planning to be there; I do finally want to see the BAD GUYS reel and besides I'd just like to finally make it to one. "

I'll bring the tape anyway.


Jimmy]----"Jeez it has been a slow day." I think everyone is preparing for the return back to school.

Jim R.]------"And if you were lucky, you *didn't* have to do labor today. :) " Just a little

Todd]-----"Presumably, nobody had anything to say yesterday." Everyone was chilling, grilling and taking it easy. "Toon Disney just announced that they'd be airing a special Gargoyles Halloween marathon from October 28 to October 31, airing all the "Gargoyles" episodes" :::Bangs head against table::: I HATE my cable company!!!!!!!! ""all the episodes except for 'Deadly Force' again"). " Like they have the stones or the common sense to air "Deadly Force"

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 10:35:17 AM
IP: 67.25.55.107

thank God, a slow week in here. i'm so busy lately that i only get to check in here every other day or so, and Airwalker's posts alone keep me busy reading for hours just to catch up! :)

Airwalker> "The Golem of Prague is only the most famous of the various Golems that Jewish legend talks about. It was not the only one. At one point it seems like they were almost all over the place." my guess is that many of these Golems could be attributed to gargoyles and gargoyle clans protecting their territories. they are awfully similiar afterall. of course, eventually these clans would be wiped out and the stories of them would end up becoming Golem stories or whatnot... Greg once said that whoever created the Golem in the first place might've been inspired by gargoyles, so he made his own stone protector.

matt
Wednesday, September 4, 2002 02:12:55 AM
IP: 207.230.48.35

all the episodes> I'm thinking all but Deadly Force. Call it a hunch.

Jim R.> Thanks. And no, sadly, it did not come with Jaguar since I ordered it from Macmall instead of Apple. Their merchandise is a little older.
And where would I find these roms? Do the same ones I use on my PC work?

jimmy
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 10:04:37 PM
IP: 172.160.170.132

Sorry for the double post, but:

Toon Disney just announced that they'd be airing a special Gargoyles Halloween marathon from October 28 to October 31, airing all the "Gargoyles" episodes. (I wonder if that means "all the episodes" this time, or just "all the episodes except for 'Deadly Force' again").

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 07:48:31 PM
IP: 67.28.91.253

I was investigating to see if the comment rooms (neither this one nor the TGS one had had any traffic yesterday) had gone non-operational again due to somebody using up all the spare space (as has happened before); it turned out that they hadn't. Presumably, nobody had anything to say yesterday.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 07:44:59 PM
IP: 67.28.91.253

I wonder what Todd was testing?

Airwalker> Indeed, it is quiet in here. Probably waiting for Greg to make his weekly post. And I think that is your shortest post to date. :)

Jimmy> I hereby welcome you to the Mac kingdom. If you're looking for any Mac emulators, go to http://www.emulation.net. They have alot for just about any system/console/whatever, but of course you have to get your own ROMs. :) SNES9X for OS X runs just about any SNES ROM great. And so does Generator for Genesis ROMs. Did your iBook come with 10.2?

Jim R.
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 07:21:47 PM
IP: 65.40.128.127

Speaking of the Gargoyles ROM> I just got a new macintosh (ibook) and seeing as how I'm a mac virgin, I was wondering if anybody knew where I could find Genesis and SNES emulators for OSX.
jimmy
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 06:24:56 PM
IP: 172.165.75.66

Maybe everybody's off trying out the Gargoyles ROM. Or maybe that could be a new topic of discussion :D heheh
IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 06:05:49 PM
IP: 64.166.63.159

Wow, its pretty quiet in here. We really could use some sort of new topic to start a discussion on. Any suggestions? How about more on Arthur and the hopefully one day soon PENDRAGON spinoff conversation that we were having last week?


BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [The golem must have some kind of sense of touch, otherwise it'd accidentally crush people. I think.]

Its possible although I'm not sure that I'd buy the idea completely. The Golem after all was created to stop mobs and purposefully scare anyone stupid enough to attack the community. I don't think the idea of giving it the ability to sense physical touch goes together with that. It was meant to cause damage, not to be able to be careful with whoever it was dealing with. If the situation required the Golem to get involved then you were going to end up very badly beaten, not carefully knocked unconscious and then tied up for the police to find.

(Though it might still be possible for a Golem to feel; there was more than one after all. The Golem of Prague is only the most famous of the various Golems that Jewish legend talks about. It was not the only one. At one point it seems like they were almost all over the place. But I'm not so sure if this one in particular can really feel anything.)

I think that it would be more interesting if the Golem couldn't really feel anything and it was more in Renard's mind than anything else. He wants so badly to feel and he has gone through so much that he sort of imagined that he was able to feel something. His mind recognized that he was touching his human body and he mistook it for actual true feeling.

Admittedly it doesn't really play well with the dialogue he had; that does imply that the Golem did have some sort of feeling to it. But I still don't think that it would work well if he had real sensation. Its hard to accept that he'd get true feeling for exchanging his body; if the Coldstone can't have true feeling with his dead stone then why should Renard in a Clay Statue that was never alive?

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, September 3, 2002 01:52:52 PM
IP: 12.88.81.214

Somethingth!

Airwalker> "I liked the scene but the real question is how can Renard in the Golem really feel anything? Its just animated Clay after all. Even with Renard's soul in it, it is just animated Clay that is being possessed by a Human soul."
The golem must have some kind of sense of touch, otherwise it'd accidentally crush people. I think.

*curses her mosquito bites and lack of elbow macaroni*

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, September 2, 2002 10:31:03 PM
IP: 129.21.10.114

It's somewhat late but hope everyone had a Happy Labor Day weekend. And if you were lucky, you *didn't* have to do labor today. :)
Jim R.
Monday, September 2, 2002 10:19:27 PM
IP: 65.164.17.68

Damn, I hate it when I'm wrong!
Jimmy
Monday, September 2, 2002 09:10:46 PM
IP: 172.148.33.31

Testing what? To see if the CR is still working?
Jeez it has been a slow day. But I just know that when I hit submit, there will be a whole bunch of posts that were put up while I was typing.

Jimmy
Monday, September 2, 2002 09:10:19 PM
IP: 172.148.33.31

Testing
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 2, 2002 06:49:12 PM
IP: 63.208.41.130

Hey! Just wanted to let everybody know that the Gargoyles Genesis ROM is available on Avalon. I downloaded it a LONG time ago but never put it on-line because there weren't any emulators that could play it (so, what was the point?) But Scott recently found an emulator that can (and has been able to since Jan 2002, it seems). Until I get a more official page for it, it's available here:
http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/gallery/videogame.html (or click on my name) the links are at the top of the page before the images.

IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Monday, September 2, 2002 05:55:18 AM
IP: 64.166.62.36

Rounding off the countdown at good ol' number 10!!!
Roy & Kiva
Monday, September 2, 2002 03:47:43 AM
IP: 64.75.154.123

Rounding off the countdown at good ol' number 10!!!
Roy & Kiva
Monday, September 2, 2002 03:47:41 AM
IP: 64.75.154.123

9th is good for me! glad to be here!
sareth gargoyle female - [Reinerchic14@aol.com]
cave creek, AZ, USA
Monday, September 2, 2002 03:12:10 AM
IP: 198.81.26.201

Eight is OK, I guess.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, September 2, 2002 01:05:08 AM
IP: 66.169.212.157

I'll take seventh.


Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Monday, September 2, 2002 01:02:40 AM
IP: 64.91.102.161

Claiming the 6th in the name of the Fay

MC
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:53:30 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Okay, I just found something really bizarre in this month's issue of Anime Invasion. It's a video game coming out for Playstation 2 called "Kingdom Hearts," which is a big Final Fantasy and Disney crossover. I checked out the website and they had a trailer available. It actually looks pretty stunning. Tons of cameos from both franchises.

Here's the website:
http://www.squaresoft.com/playonline/kingdomhearts/index1.html

Scott Iskow - [smiskow@lycos.com]
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:35:43 AM
IP: 68.50.37.201

Fourth!
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:06:32 AM
IP: 12.88.91.209

Make that Third, 3, III, etc, etc
Wingless
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:04:53 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

Guess This means I'm second yet again *pokes Knox* we will dethrone you yet! Muahahahahahaah! er um...well,

Second, II, 2, Two, etc etc,

Wingless
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:04:21 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

Second! :-)
warrioress
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:03:54 AM
IP: 208.190.202.181

FIRST!!! :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, September 2, 2002 12:00:25 AM
IP: 208.54.204.158