Comments for the week ending August 18, 2003

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"after watching longway till morning and other episodes I noticed that if a gargoyle shows an injury it can not heal is that true?"
-What do you mean? Gargoyles heal themselves while they are in their stone sleep, so cuts and bruises, diseases, and scrapes will heal. But heavier injuries like severed limbs or damaged organs, or injuries that start to heal before they go into stone sleep (like Hudson's scar over his eye) will stay there.

Jimmy
Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:54:55 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

after watching longway till morning and other episodes I noticed that if a gargoyle shows an injury it can not heal is that true?
Lawrence M - [opinionsrgood@hotmail.com]
bendigo, vic, aus
Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:20:55 PM
IP: 61.9.128.174

Thanks for clearing that up, and I'll look into the Gathering, but no promises. ;)
Skyblade
Sunday, August 17, 2003 05:39:06 PM
IP: 208.180.204.55

"Hey, uh... just dropped a message for Gorebash in the que to erase some of my questions. But he doesn't react at all. Mailed him a week ago, still nothing... did I use the wrong adress or what? When's he checking the que???"
-You're better off asking Todd. He's the one that edits the queue. Gore is busy doing other things. A site redesign for one. Although he hasn't done that in a while either. I suspect he has a life outside of Station 8 that's eating up his time. (Shock!)
Jimmy
Sunday, August 17, 2003 02:38:49 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

Just a quick update on Avalon Mists

I'm still coding it. I kinda overestimated myself a little bit. Should have it up by the end of this weekend. Sorry for the delay. -_-;;
Siryn
Sunday, August 17, 2003 07:54:54 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

Hey, uh... just dropped a message for Gorebash in the que to erase some of my questions. But he doesn't react at all. Mailed him a week ago, still nothing... did I use the wrong adress or what? When's he checking the que???
The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:57:44 PM
IP: 217.87.14.65

JIMMY - Well, there's the tail, but also Talon's head looks different in "The Cage". More panther-like, less "general big cat". (Maggie's character design alters as well.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 16, 2003 07:50:11 AM
IP: 171.75.194.79

"I suspect he would still be a cutthroat, greedy individual, but perhaps learning a but of humility would give him some level of remorse."

Why would think he'd still be a rotten guy? He and Goliath have the same DNA. I don't think they'd turned out much different, given similar backgrounds.

Actually, the more you think about it, you can feel some real sympathy for 'log. He was crafted in the image of probably the world's most amoral man and he's operating in the only way he knows how. His time with Demona couldn't done much to grow a conscience, either. Analyzing it, I wonder if some of that outward confidence is just an act. Does he have doubts and fears that he squashes?
James Anatidae AKA Jonathan Parshall - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Saturday, August 16, 2003 03:12:50 AM
IP: 207.144.234.60

"they use the character design of Talon from "The Cage" (which came after "Upgrade") rather than from "Metamorphosis" (the only Mutate episode preceding "Upgrade")."
-What was the difference? Just a tail right?

"I've sometimes wondered how accurate the term is, since in the original myth, Oedipus *didn't* want to kill his father and marry his mother"
-Me too, but can you think of a better name for a complex?

"It's seeing somebody who looks so much like Goliath behave in a very un-Goliath-ish fashion that makes Thailog creepy."
-Takes a rather strong stance in the nature versus nurture debate don't you think? Genetically he's the exact same, but a different education and set of life experiences turned him into what he is now. It would be interesting to see how Thailog would have turned out if he had been fed Xanatos's programming but hadn't been artificially aged. In other words, been given the opportunity to grow up and mature over a lifetime in a somewhat normal fashion. I suspect he would still be a cutthroat, greedy individual, but perhaps learning a but of humility would give him some level of remorse.



Jimmy
Friday, August 15, 2003 11:53:17 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

does any one know what the spell Mc Beth used to summon the will of the wisk means?
Lawrence M - [opinionsrgood@hotmail.com]
Friday, August 15, 2003 11:44:38 PM
IP: 139.134.57.153

DISASTER!

My Gathering '99 CD, which I paid something over $30 for at the last Gathering, got Sprite spilled all over it. Disc II's alright, as it wasn't in the case at the time, but Disc I's label is all blurred and the inserts all wavy and have lost most of their color.

I guess one of you is going to able to pick it up extra cheap at next year's Gathering auction. I'll be endeavoring to replace it with an undamaged copy.
James Anatidae AKA Jonathan Parshall - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Friday, August 15, 2003 11:06:09 PM
IP: 207.144.235.95

Watched my tape of "Upgrade" this afternoon. Interestingly enough, the episode (to be precise, the alteration of the Pack in this episode) held a different significance for me than it did for Greg Weisman. For Greg, the significance of the Pack getting upgraded was to make them more challenging for the gargoyles. For me, the significance of the Pack getting upgraded was that Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf became a lot more unsettling. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I felt positively freaked over what had happened to them - I even initially wanted to believe that Jackal and Hyena were wearing fancy armor, but I'd had to face the truth. They'd been cybernetized. (I hope that I never hate anybody to such an extent that I'd willingly let myself be turned into a cyborg or a wolf-man just to be able to get at that person.) I certainly couldn't blame Dingo for being so repulsed by it all.

One fun little tidbit: after the gargoyles defeat the Pack at the beginning of the episode (in the battle at the bank), Wolf turns back just before fleeing and shouts "This isn't over!" In fact, that's the same thing that Hakon shouts in "Awakening Part One" after Goliath and his clan first repulse the Vikings - and the really neat part about it is that Hakon turns out to be Wolf's several-times-great-grandfather in "Vendettas". Apparently certain lines run in the family.

When the Coyote head is showing the Pack the video about Xanatos's various technical achievements that they could use, including Talon to symbolize genetic engineering, they use the character design of Talon from "The Cage" (which came after "Upgrade") rather than from "Metamorphosis" (the only Mutate episode preceding "Upgrade").

Other favorite bits: Jackal being disgusted by Hyena's interest in Coyote (I'd have thought that nothing could disgust him, but I suppose that her being his sister has something to do with it), Bronx groaning and putting his paws over his ears when the trio start arguing, Goliath's initial choice for his second-in-command being Hudson (I think that one of Goliath's most appealing features is the way that he looks up to Hudson and respects him as his mentor figure), and Hyena's "I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken" line. (And between you and me, I think that she'd have been happy to find out.) Plus Xanatos and Fox's bits in the background (including Xanatos's response to Fox beating him).

"Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes (a little too much of a slugfest), but it's got some fun moments in it.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 15, 2003 07:12:21 PM
IP: 171.75.194.56

*blush* Thankyou Greg.

Skyblade> Yes, Greg's right, Karine otherwise known as Kanthara in fandom, is the con chair for G2004. I'm just giving shout outs here and there. ^_^ Please try to come though!! :D

That goes for everyone! Show your support! :D

Even if you can't afford everything now, if you have $15 handy, put that towards a supporting membership, so if you can't go later, its not a major monetary investment. But if you CAN go, the $15 counts towards your registration. So either way, its WORTH IT! :D
(Not to mention, money now helps us be able to afford up front hotel fees etc) and the more people who register and come, the more awesome guests we can afford!! :D

*SO Shameless!* ;D
Siryn - [<--G04 It!]
Friday, August 15, 2003 06:58:55 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

SKYBLADE> Actually Siryn isn't running the Gathering now (though she is on staff), Karine "Kanthara" is. But Siryn did run the 2002 Gathering in Williamsburg and she did a terrific job too.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 15, 2003 04:49:26 PM
IP: 216.179.3.18

Siryn? You're running the Gathering now? Then again, it has been a long time since I last checked in. I bet you do a great job.
SkyBlade
Friday, August 15, 2003 02:48:12 PM
IP: 65.70.137.233

Not fun having a blackout during the summer when you can't even have a fan going for 5 hours. Hope no one else had serious problems during the blackout...

Ask Greg is up and running again and it seems Greg is consolidating a few things together. Makes me wonder who/what else may get a dual role in the series.
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Friday, August 15, 2003 01:42:32 PM
IP: 128.113.163.13

In case you HAVEN'T HEARD...

Gathering of the Gargoyles 2004 Website is UP!!!!

Registration information, contest information, staff information, hotel information, how to help the con info, LOTS OF STUFF UP! GO SEE!!!
Siryn - [<--Gathering of the Gargoyles 2004]
Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:09:50 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

JIMMY - I've thought myself that Thailog does seem to have a bit of an Oedipus complex. (Although I've sometimes wondered how accurate the term is, since in the original myth, Oedipus *didn't* want to kill his father and marry his mother - and ironically, his running away from home to keep himself from doing it was exactly what led to doing it.)

Although I think that what's most chilling about Thailog is the incongruity about him; he looks like Goliath (except for the color difference) and sounds like him, but is Goliath's opposite in terms of character. Goliath is a medieval warrior with the virtues (courage, loyalty, integrity) and faults (stubbornness, occasional vengefulness) of one; Thailog is thoroughly amoral in a modern-day sense, out for money and power and willing to betray anybody to get it. It's seeing somebody who looks so much like Goliath behave in a very un-Goliath-ish fashion that makes Thailog creepy.

Two other good lines of Thailog in this episode:

1. When he comments about how he considered reaching out to Goliath (before Goliath initially rejected him): "It took some effort."

2. After hearing Goliath bellowing: "Now I know where I got the temper from."
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:05:46 PM
IP: 171.75.194.19

Thailog really strikes me as a spoiled-rotten 6 year old boy with too much power and intelligence for his own good. It's evident by a total lack of maturity in his actions. One could even argue that his fixation on Demona and Elisa and his attempts to kill Goliath and Xanatos amount to something of an Oedipus complex.
Jimmy
Thursday, August 14, 2003 09:49:53 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

Hey.

It's 5:00 here, and I guess most of you can read this... some can't... anyone live in Ontario? NJ? Ohio? The village NY?

Massive ammounts of people walking home... glad I don't live near my Downtown core...

Hope y'all make it home OK.

Later~
Battle Beast
Edmonton
Thursday, August 14, 2003 07:04:53 PM
IP: 205.206.73.159

DPH - Nope, I'm not kidding. The information comes from "A Celtic Book of Days" by Sarah Costley and Charles Kightly. Macbeth's story was in its entry for today. (It talked about how Macbeth stood for that part of Scotland which held to the old Celtic ways, while Duncan and his family were connecting themselves more to the English - as "City of Stone" itself made clear with Canmore getting help from the English in overthrowing Macbeth.)

Watched my tape of "Double Jeopardy" today. One thing that occurred to me while watching it (although I've thought it before) is that Thailog comes across as much more malevolent than Xanatos. A big part of it is the laugh. I don't ever recall Xanatos giving some evil laugh (the closest is when he's doing his "It's alive!" bit in "Re-Awakening"), but Thailog lets out a lot of maniacal laughter throughout.

(Another matter that makes Thailog more evil than Xanatos is that he's far less of a family man. Xanatos genuinely cares about his wife and son, and is particularly delighted with Fox being his intellectual equal who can even outmaneuver him at times - see the next episode, "Upgrade", for that. Thailog, on the other hand, can betray his own mate Demona without even a qualm of conscience and replace her with Delilah, who's programmed to be completely subservient to him.)

I've mentioned this before as well, but it's interesting to note Xanatos's line about "No copy could live up to the original", since this is the last time in the series that Xanatos tries to make his own gargoyles. (He still keeps on the Steel Clan and does make one last go of it with the Mutates in "The Cage", but there are no brand-new schemes.) Of course, given just how the Thailog plan backfired, who can blame him?

And I still like Owen's hurt-sounding remark to Xanatos when Thailog gets abducted; "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" He really doesn't seem to like being kept out of things.

Lots more to say, but I've probably said it all before, so I'll close for now.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 14, 2003 06:24:57 PM
IP: 171.75.194.73

Vash> <<If it's not too sensitive a subject, how did your roommate die?>>

Neither of us knew that he had pneumonia. I think pnuemonia depresses the lungs. So when I had left for the play (he dropped me off) he ahd taken some pills afterwards that also depress the lungs. Pretty much, he just stopped breathing in his sleep. I guess that's a good way to go.
Gabriel
Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:59:32 AM
IP: 68.116.248.99

Todd - You're kidding, right? Well, I guess the Wierd Sisters probably had a hand in that.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:49:13 AM
IP: 204.94.193.20

Historical trivia: Today, August 14, is the anniversary of Macbeth's victory over Duncan in 1040. Tomorrow, August 15, is the anniversary of Canmore's victory over Macbeth in 1057. (And, yes, these are the actual historical dates.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:42:33 AM
IP: 171.75.195.1

Shogun Raptor> My condolences about your loss. =( If it's any comfort, Gargoyles is returning to weeknights starting Sept 2nd.

Gabriel> I don't know how you dealt with all that. O.O Man.... If it's not too sensitive a subject, how did your roommate die?

Nickerous> If you're going to make it a Top10 contest, at least do it in the TGS CR. The one here is too predictable; it resets at midnight every Sunday. All you have to do is wait around and hit the submit button at just the right moment. -_-
Vashkoda
Thursday, August 14, 2003 02:10:20 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

JIMMY - Douglas Adams reference.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:30:13 PM
IP: 67.28.95.222

DPH> I sent you an email. I'd try the newest version of Media Player or PowerDVD. Let me know if none of those work.

Now, i have a dilemma. I have progressed a bit in my dvd making and want to add stuff to the first 6 Gargoyle dvds that I made. Since I went ahead and put those 6 on non-rewritable media, I'll either have to trash them or have 2 copies of those discs. I think that I'll give them away instead.

I don't feel like asking a trivia question for them, so, I need some suggestions on how to do this. Since the top 10 postings each week is a contest of sorts, I was thinking that I could make a specific poster the winner (if that poster claims the prize). What do you folks think? It's either give them away or keep them as backups (and I already have vcr tapes as backup). I'm not exactly sure who runs this site, but if I am in the wrong by doing this, let me know and I'll not proceed.
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 09:16:13 PM
IP: 66.220.76.183

DPH> Let me try and find something else....Windows media player has always worked for me. What version do you have?
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 08:56:19 PM
IP: 66.220.76.183

"I wonder if any of the Illuminati have a hotel key labeled "42" for the Hotel Cabal"
-Was that a Douglas Adams reference or another conspiracy theory?
Jimmy
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 07:44:49 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Shogun Raptor. I hope that things get better for you soon.

I think that Xanatos was telling the truth about the Magus writing down the story (or part of it) in the Grimorum, since we do get a glimpse of him (the Magus) writing something in the Grimorum in "Avalon Part One". Although I doubt that the Magus mentioned anything about taking the eggs to Avalon. (Actually, I suspect that Xanatos would have considered it more to his advantage to dupe the gargoyles into believing that they were the only ones left; he certainly wouldn't want them to leave the Eyrie Building to look for other gargoyles.)

Saw my tape of "Revelations" this afternoon. I still think that it's a pity that they never took the storyline about Matt and the Illuminati any further than this; the revelation at the end that Hacker had been an Illuminatus all along was just crying out for continuation.

I still find myself wondering sometimes how many viewers must have gotten a deja vu feeling after discovering (I know that it's really a "Silver Falcon" revelation, of course) that Matt had once been an FBI agent. At least Greg Weisman didn't give him a little sister who'd mysteriously vanished and whose disappearance was what motivated Matt to go searching for the Illuminati. :)

Near the beginning, Mace Malone calls Goliath "a majestic beast". I wonder if even the Illuminati haven't fully picked up on the gargoyles being sentients (although Xanatos would probably have made it clear in his report to them - and Duval might know the truth about gargoyles as well from the time when he was one of King Arthur's knights). Of course, I may simply be reading too much into this line.

Actually, maybe it's not so surprising (from the point of view of the internal story rather than the production team's point of view) that we don't hear anything about the Illuminati after this until "The Journey" when Duval first gets mentioned. We know that the Illuminati were behind the Quarrymen, and obviously, even they couldn't have started setting it up immediately after "Hunter's Moon"; I don't think that there was time enough between the gargoyles getting exposed by Jon Canmore and the events in "The Journey" for even the Illuminati to make all those hammers, hoods, etc. More likely, they must have started manufacturing them and making their plans for the Quarrymen long before "Hunter's Moon", and were simply waiting for the right time to put them into action - and when Jon Canmore came to them asking for their help in the immediate aftermath of "Hunter's Moon", while the public was still reeling in shock from the discovery that gargoyles actually existed and was in a vulnerable, easily manipulated condition, the Illuminati saw it as the perfect time to put their plan into operation.

(And also, if the Illuminati are out to control the entire world behind the scenes, they've obviously got a lot more things than gargoyles to concern themselves with.)

It's amusing that Mace Malone's hotel key is labeled "23". I understand that the number 23 plays a strong role in many Illuminati-style conspiracy theories (people will bring up how Shakespeare was both born on April 23 and died on April 23, how Julius Caesar received 23 stabbing wounds on the Ides of March, etc.). I seriously doubt that it's a coincidence that Malone had that for his hotel key number. (And there's the irony that Matt's hotel key is labeled 13, but was obviously not unlucky for Goliath. :) ). I wonder if any of the Illuminati have a hotel key labeled "42" for the Hotel Cabal....:)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 06:55:11 PM
IP: 171.75.244.116

Nick - I got your cds today. What software am I supposed to be using to view the contents? Windows Media Player says the class isn't registered.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 06:37:14 PM
IP: 204.94.193.77

Shogun Raptor>

Sorry to hear how life seems to be going down the drain; believe me, you have my empathy. That happened to me about three or four months ago. My dad had a mild heart-attack, so I drove down to Houston from Dallas (about five hours). When I came back to dallas, I went to a play to hopefully get my mind off of that. The next day, after breaking into my own apartment since I couldn't get in the night before, I literally found my roomate dead on the couch, stiff as a board. Someone had to help me get him off the couch since I was hoping he was still alive. A week or two after that my Grandpa goes into a colma and dies. I didn't do too hot in school because of everything.

Anyways, it felt like just everything decided to be against me after that. I got towed from a place I was staying at, and all other nice little things began to pile up. I can't say much other than just to find something to vent your emotions out. Luckily, I play guitar, so I ended up writing an entire black metal album, which I'm soon record. :)

I hope you fell better soon.
Gabriel
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 04:15:46 PM
IP: 68.116.248.99

Did I miss something? my Stepfather died on tuesday, tuesday night I decide watching gargs might soothe the pain a little and what's on toon disney? DOUG! *bleep bleep bleep bleep*ing DOUG! What the *bleep* is he doing on? where's my Gargs, first the sci-fi channel takes farscape away from me, then I lose a beloved family member, and now this! What is EVERYONE out to drive me over the brink? top that off with my modem not working and the stupid frelling internet service at my mom's house is the one they use in libraries, all the good sites are firewalled, I tell ya sometimes it just doesn't pay to keep living, and if I seem a little steamed is because that's only an outward manifestation of my inner pain and believe you me, there is a LOT of inner pain right now!
Shogun Raptor
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 02:38:59 PM
IP: 209.165.22.98

Xanatos and the Eggs> while anyone here would be a fool to think X would/could lie about the eggs i don't think he actually did. its possible, but i doubt it.
Xanatos only said that the Magus wrote down the story of the Massacre and fall of Wyvern down in the Grimorum, not what happened in the months following it. as others have said, he may have been lieing about that and just got his info from Demona, who obviously didn't know where the eggs went after Katherine took them. maybe Demona told Xanatos that Katherine took the eggs, maybe not, but either way when Lex asked "...The eggs in the Rookery?" Xanatos wasn't lieing when he said, "Gone, i'm afraid..."
and i don't think Magus wrote down that the eggs were taken to Avalon for a couple reasons. first, he didn't have any time to write it down, they were on the run from the law, no time to sit and write in a journal. second, Demona and Xanatos both had access to the book and i think Demona at least would've tried to use that info somehow... or at least not be so confused and shocked when Angela showed up.
if Magus continued writing about his life after Wyvern the journal probably stopped around the time the King was killed, i'd imagine...
matt
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:02:33 PM
IP: 207.230.48.22

Well, not that the gargs ever got a chance to read the Grimorum and see for themselves, but Xanatos might have been operating on the best info he had, rather than lying. (About that, at least)

Xanatos said he found out about them from the Magus writing everything down in the GA. *If* the Magus really did that, then, one could make the supposition that while he had time to write down the details of the Wyvern massacre and it's immediate aftermath, that taking the eggs and fleeing was such a spur of the moment decision he he didn't have time to even dash off something like "Whoops. King's been assassinated. Taking the eggs and making tracks to Avalon. Tell Goliath if he ever wakes up." before he gave the book to Mary and Finella.

Alternatively, Xanatos might have lied about the Magus writing any of it down. (I know, I'd be *so shocked* to find out Xanatos lied too) If Xanatos in fact got all his information from Demona, then her only knowledge of the eggs would be Katherine leaving with them, hence them being gone.

Or, if that was a painful subject, and Demona didn't want to talk about it with David, he might have just seen that there were no eggs in the castle, no gargoyles running around that he knew of other than Demona, factored in how long ago it was, and just drawn the logical, if wrong, conclusion.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:43:30 AM
IP: 66.139.49.253

DERNHELM - The episode that you're thinking of is "Leader of the Pack", not "Upgrade".

If the series had gone with Goliath and the other gargoyles being the last of their kind, I think that it would have needed to play down the elements of human xenophobia and the intricacies of gargoyle culture and biology, since otherwise it would have kept the audience focus too much on the bleakness of the gargoyle race coming to an end. Instead, it would probably have focused more on the "gargoyles protect" element, concentrating on the gargoyles rescuing the innocent from harm, and thereby having the element of hope centered around all the lives that the gargoyles have saved.

I think that only Greg Weisman can say as yet why Xanatos told the gargoyles that the eggs were all gone. (Admittedly, I always believed him until "Avalon Part One" aired, despite what we knew about him, since I didn't think it likely that the eggs would still be around after a thousand years. Of course, Xanatos might not have known about their survival himself; I certainly doubt that Demona did until after she saw Angela in "Sanctuary".)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 07:56:07 AM
IP: 171.75.194.81

Is Upgrade the episode where Bronx bites Xanitos' face, but then you find out it's a robot? What a shock it was the first time I saw it.
If they hadn't introduced more gargoyles, the story would be about the original six and the rest of their lives in NYC. It would be interesting to guess where the story would've gone.

I was wondering, why did Xanitos tell them that the eggs didn't survive? How would he know?
Dernhelm - [springsprite@email.com]
Oklahoma City
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 02:37:08 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

I think if you forget about the ending, Future Tense would definitely be the darkest of them all. It is also me second favorite episode next to City of Stone, which I think is possibly the second darkest, with Awakenings being third due to the Gargoyle massacre. But Greif and Upgrade sort of tie with it. Upgrade because of the disturbing nature of some of the "upgrades" and Grief because of all the talking about death and its inevitability. There is a lot of raw emotion in that episode.

Todd> Good point, without there being some sort of hope for the future of the Gargoyle race it matters not whether the Gargoyles coexist with humanity or not. Reinforces my point that it was a necessary move.

Perhaps some of the reason many people are put off by the discovery of more Gargs is that soon afterwards, the series turned to crap due to the Goliath Chronicles. Most people never got to see where the series would go with all these new elements introduced in season 2.
Jimmy
Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:59:31 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

I thought "Future Tense" was the darkest episode by far, seconded by "Upgrade" or maybe the "City of Stone" episodes. Probaby the darkest of the first season would either be "Reawakenings" or "Deadly Force."

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Tuesday, August 12, 2003 08:28:04 AM
IP: 65.120.105.107

I have to admit, I had the same problem, only with another media: Matrix. Before seeing it, I thought that Morpheus and his crew were the last humans. It gives urgency to the deeds they do.

However, while we are at this point, IMHO, the first season is darker then the second. Hm... just trying to find the "darkest" Episode of Gargs. Maybe "M.I.A."? Or "Grief"?
The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Tuesday, August 12, 2003 06:47:33 AM
IP: 217.87.10.46

JIMMY - I don't think that I gave that much thought to the gargoyles' long-term fate when I first watched the series, but I'm glad myself that it turned out that they weren't doomed to be the last of their kind. If they really had been, that would have made their efforts to make peace with humanity pointless; they're going to go extinct soon regardless of whether the humans can learn to share the world with gargoyles, so how much difference will it make if humans do learn? Now there's more of a point to it.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 11, 2003 10:55:18 PM
IP: 171.75.194.23

11th in the name of starting a conversation.

Todd> When I first saw Gargoyles I felt the same way. Now I have come to grips with it, but I definitely felt like the Manhattan clan being the only one out there gave a sense of urgency to the Gargoyle's fate. If they die it is extinction for their species. But now there are plenty of clans all around the world. It feels much more hopeful which erased some of the darkness that came with the Manhattan clan being the last of their kind.

At this point, however, I feel that it was a necessary move. The extinction plot string could only have been carried out so long before it got stale. Eventually, they would need to give the Gargoyles a true reason for living. Like humans, Gargoyles seem to be a sociable race. Without other Gargoyles or people to talk to, the show would have soon degenerated into a "villan of the week" type of formula.
Jimmy
Monday, August 11, 2003 10:08:21 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

10th in the name of true raw black metal!!!!
Gabriel - [Hellig Usvart!]
Monday, August 11, 2003 05:10:52 PM
IP: 68.116.248.99

9th.

I came across a Gargoyles discussion thread in another forum (a mainly non-Gargoyles forum), and one of the posters commented that he was rather disappointed over the revelation that there were other clans out there, during the Avalon World Tour, saying that he much preferred it when it looked as if Goliath and his clan were the last of their kind, since it gave them a darker edge. I've got to admit, that's the first time that I've actually encountered anybody in Gargoyles fandom who took such an outlook.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 11, 2003 07:49:07 AM
IP: 171.75.194.2

9th.
Leo
Monday, August 11, 2003 07:48:12 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

8TH in the name of The Ewoks of Endor... Ewoks kick @$$!
matt
Monday, August 11, 2003 07:32:01 AM
IP: 207.230.48.62

7th in the Name of the Red Rockin' Evil!!!
The Coma-man
Berlin, Deutschland
Monday, August 11, 2003 06:58:03 AM
IP: 217.87.15.24

6th or so!
Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail]
Monday, August 11, 2003 06:38:13 AM
IP: 156.34.232.185

fifth?
Star
Monday, August 11, 2003 01:49:41 AM
IP: 67.120.234.42

4th in the name of the Fay!

**^_^**
mc
Mooncat
Monday, August 11, 2003 01:35:05 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Three!!...wishes to be exact. Uno, dos, tres.
ColdFire
Monday, August 11, 2003 01:24:31 AM
IP: 24.87.61.4

Second!
Demona Taina
Monday, August 11, 2003 12:50:23 AM
IP: 196.42.28.68

I would restart the gargoyles trivia contest up yet again, but we seem to have a problem when it comes to getting questions asked. Passing the buck to the next person seemed a good idea at the time, but it just hasn't seemed to work out.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, August 11, 2003 12:46:24 AM
IP: 204.94.193.77

#1, in the name of all that is logical in the universe
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, August 11, 2003 12:30:20 AM
IP: 204.94.193.77