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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 13, 2004

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GRUB> "Burn down the walls of time and space"

I think, I could be wrong.

Greg Bishansky
Sunday, September 12, 2004 11:27:53 PM
IP: 162.84.164.187

What does "Des legrate muri tempe et intervalia! " mean? Thanks in advance! :)
grub
Sunday, September 12, 2004 11:07:50 PM
IP: 67.163.241.220

*sticks head in*

Okay, the captions are sloppy and the pics are a tad too big, but my G2004 photos are up...

...and now I need to go back to my homework. :)
Mandolin - [<-- G2004 pics!]
Sunday, September 12, 2004 10:22:13 PM
IP: 68.55.87.89

The Batman - I'm not sure I get it. Is the similarity of Ellen Yin's wardrobe to Elisa Maza's supposed to make us fans of "Gargoyles" want to watch the show? Yeah, it's amusing for a few minutes. After that, it just seems distracting. Especially since the animation style looks more reminiscent of "Jackie Chan Adventures" than "Gargoyles."

86 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Sunday, September 12, 2004 09:08:50 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Matt> As mentioned several times by different people, I do *NOT* have your programme. (And honestly..the way you are continuing to ask for it is starting to bug me.. -_-;;)

I'm sure Karine will mail it to you when she gets a chance. I'm sure she understands how precious and dear it is to you. You have also got to understand that Karine also has a lot of other things occupying her right now and I think it honestly slipped her mind/isn't on the high prority list. So just be patient. KK? She'll send it when she is able to. Or like Crzydemona said, you can email her (email is probably still on gatheringofthegargoyles.com)


As for what *I* would like to see on future eps (if we ever had them..)

1. Vinnie
2. Vinne & Japanese Gargoyles
3. Korean Gargoyles
4. Si and Vinnie.. (err wait..~_^ jk! hehe)

Siryn
Sunday, September 12, 2004 07:40:50 PM
IP: 68.54.148.183

Lynati> Ah. Okay.
Jade Griffin
Sunday, September 12, 2004 05:01:18 PM
IP: 24.205.214.26

Greg B> point in fact. Was wondering that myself. As the Demona saying Jalapena, I'd pay to see that, or get her to go to the con. Would that count if she said it then? :)
Jade Griffin
Sunday, September 12, 2004 05:01:01 PM
IP: 24.205.214.26

(Okay, just here to vent now <g>...)

The powers that be at my dorm decided to paint over my Goliath mural over the summer! That makes me so angry! None of the other murals in our hallway were touched, so I don't understand why thy felt the need to paint over mine. You can see pictures of the old mural at http://www.ladyavalon.com/pics/ or click my name.

Ah well... this just means I'll have to do it again. And the guy across the hall says maybe I can paint over his door too (he's an old Gargoyles fan himself). Maybe I can have a matched set! I like the stone pic of Demona...

Kaylle (already plotting her revenge)

Kaylle - [kaylle@ladyavalon.com]
Boston, MA, USA
Sunday, September 12, 2004 02:00:38 PM
IP: 18.244.2.5

If gargoyles returned I would want to see the elisa and goliath love plot explored a little more.

I would also like to see the show focus on other clans and not just the NY clan.

Anyone who wanted a gargoyles dvd postcard the second mailout is going out next week. Anyone who still wants one let me know.


shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Sunday, September 12, 2004 01:44:58 PM
IP: 209.179.250.178

Jade Griffin > If you look on the "Oscar Trivia" section, go to "Best Animated Feature" winners... you see the list of winners, the year they won and the year they came out.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, September 12, 2004 10:31:35 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

BISHANSKY - I agree with you about what Titania whispered to Fox. I don't think that we should ever find out what it was that she said. A lot of its power comes from the utter mystery about it. And by now, I seriously doubt that any answer to that question could live up to our expectations.

I think that the Goliath Chronicles production team didn't do anything with Castaway's true identity as Jon Canmore because they might have been afraid that some of their viewers wouldn't know who Jon Canmore was. And maybe they also feared that it would weaken the racism angle, since Jon's reason for going after the gargoyles wasn't based on their being "weird-looking bat-winged monsters", but out of revenge, because he'd shot his brother and wasn't strong enough to take responsibility for it. But I still think that it was a big mistake of theirs to not use the Jon Canmore element (apart from a brief allusion to it in "Angels in the Night"), since it was the thing that explained why Castaway was doing what he was doing. Without it, he's just a gargoyle hater who pops out of nowhere for no reason other than "we need a new Big Bad now that Xanatos is sheltering the gargoyles".

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, September 12, 2004 07:32:51 AM
IP: 63.186.1.153

Jade Griffon: re: gargie weight.
It's pretty much been accepted that those trading card stats were bunk. If the ones who made them bothered to ask the show's staff about the gargie weight in either form, or much of anything else, it was obviously ignored. Weisman also has said the gargs don't turn to stone per se, merely a substance that is very stone-like.
And Broadway has got to be, like, 200 pounds at least I would think. A crane seems a good way to go when you are trying to move 200 pounds of large sculpture onto a roof, when there is a convenient one right there. and I don't see how Xanatos could have gotten them down off of the tower in any other way; their wings were spread too wide to simply be carried down the spiral steps inside...


Incidently...as quoted from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131960,00.html

"But since 1996, Disney has stumbled - its stock price fell as ratings slipped at ABC, the company made some questionable acquisitions, and investors began to question Eisner's control over his board of directors."
since 1996…A coincidence?
I think not. ]; )

Lynati "dear god I'm 23 now" Kshudra
Sunday, September 12, 2004 06:13:00 AM
IP: 4.139.33.228

Patrick -- I recall Greg saying at some point that gargoyle populations were once worldwide, but I don't recall him going into any specifics regarding where they evolved. I'd consider it a fair assumption that gargoyles wouldn't have evolved alongside humans in Africa, given how large the earth is. But I get into semantic stickiness with your distinction between "mixing" and "joint development," at least the way you've worded it here. If two languages come into contact and become one via each other's influence, I'd consider that a process of linguistic development. But then, of course, any language is undergoing "development" to this day if it's spoken by enough people.

Having said this, I readily admit that I like Patricia's theory too. Her take on nonverbal communication makes Greg's basic theory of gargoyles being the ones to adopt human communication characteristics -- namely, their languages -- seem a little more plausible to me. Given the intellect of the gargoyle race, however, I'd still consider a one-way-street scenario less likely than one of mutual influence.

Ellen
Chicago
Sunday, September 12, 2004 05:02:54 AM
IP: 152.163.100.196

What I'd Like To See if "Gargoyles" Returned":

1. Where Greg takes Demona next. With their exposion to the world and the rise of the Quarrymen, Demona has more fuel for her fire. Her relationship with Angela would bring about great character development, with Angela trying to redeem her mother, and Demona making Angela another excuse to destroy humanity. What better excuse. To protect her daughter, she must destroy humanity.

2. More of the Illuminati. Particularly Duval. Matt's quest to expose them, and Xanatos's coming conflict with them.

3. How the clan adjusts to living with Xanatos. They need him now, and there are always those delicious ethical dillemnas, cause while he is their ally now. He is not one of the good guys. I think TGC really dropped the ball with Xanatos worse than most other areas.

4. The Quarrymen handled correctly. I always felt that John Castaway could have been a fascinating character and would have been as well liked as almost any of the previous villains if Greg had stayed on. He had potential. Why the TGC writers chose to ignore that he was once Jon Canmore boggles my mind.

5. The trial of Goliath done right. Whenever I hear Greg talk about it, it sounds fascinating. I'm sure his version would have been a classic episode.

6. The continued development of Thailog. He was supposed to inherit the mantle of "Big Bad", and I think he'd wear that mantle well. On that note, I'd love to see what Greg did with Delilah.

7. The Ultra-Pack. I always thought the Pack were fun villains. Combine that with Greg's comments about where Coyote was heading, and I just think it'd have been cool.

8. The Weird Sisters, just what they are up to next. And Queen Mab, though I hope Greg resists the idea of making her three inches tall. It's a fun sounding idea, but unless it was done really well, would not work on screen.

9. The new, returned from time traveling Brooklyn and Katana. The story Greg planned sounds great to me, always wanted a sequel to the Mary/Finella/Constantine story. I would also like to see the back story to when Xanatos first acquired the Grimorum and met Demona.

10. And well, just about everything. The continued relationship between Broadway and Angela, Goliath and Elisa... especially the Double Date. The Coldsteel/Coyote story, "The Weird Macbeth" is an episode I'd have LOVED to have seen. The multi-trickster story. The return of Dracon in his new, non-crime boss role.

And finall. Greg and I have a little bet going on. At Gathering 2003, he told the 'Jalapena Story' again, and I told him "I bet you can't get Demona to say it." I want to see if he proves me wrong ;)

MATT> "who doesn't want to know what Titania whispered to Fox? : )"

I prefer it being kept a mystery actually. I hope Greg never reveals it. More fun that way.

Greg Bishansky
Sunday, September 12, 2004 03:19:28 AM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Battle Beast> Dude.. Maybe it's getting late but I just don't see where to get the best animated picture oscar winner for 2002 out of the category when Lilo and Stitch was nominated w/ Spirited Away, Spirit, Treasure Planet, and uh... the other nominee. All good movies but I dunno which won! Help?
Jade Griffin
Sunday, September 12, 2004 02:57:34 AM
IP: 24.205.214.26

Matt> Hm... I am going by the common belief that their weight does change, as claimed by the Figures of Heart and Stone bios in Wintersmith Dreams as well as the info on the backs of the Gargoyles Trading Cards put out by Disney and whichever card company that was. It lists weights as stone as well as in the flesh and they are vastly different. But... if Greg says different, Okay. Just... why would Elisa need a crane to lift Broadway up if he didn't weigh like a lot? And Xanatos when he moved the gargs? Or do gargs just weigh tons normally? I dunno. Then how could they glide?

Battle Beast> sad business. Gummi Bears fandom is also familiar with him. He is even mentioned briefly in an episode. He will be missed. I wonder how Olli is...

Jade Griffin
Sunday, September 12, 2004 02:42:57 AM
IP: 24.205.214.26

Jade Griffon> it doesn't make any sense that a gargoyle would weigh more as stone than as flesh. and i'm pretty sure Greg has confirmed that their weight does not change. why would it? HOW could it?
matt
Sunday, September 12, 2004 01:25:12 AM
IP: 68.90.74.136

Famed Animator Frank Thomas Dead at 92


Frank Thomas, whom animation historian John Canemaker described in today's (Friday) Los Angeles Times as "one of the greatest animators of all time," died Wednesday in Flintridge, CA at the age of 92. He was one of Disney's famed "Nine Old Men," and worked on Disney's first animated feature, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs as well as a host of other Disney features until he retired after working on The Rescuers in 1977. :'(

RIP

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, September 12, 2004 12:57:47 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

JJGregarious- on garg evolution, first of all, I think marrow is only for the production of...what was it? Red blood cells? It does not add strength but it does add mass maybe? For a race that heals at dawn, maybe they don't have marrow like birds and humans and other mammals but something else?
You were confused on the actual evolution? I don't mean man from ape-to-man. I meant man as in whatever-to-ape-to-man. Gargs similarly had to have an original form. Aboeboid or other, what have you. Hey, if we could possibly evolved from pond scum, so could gargs from floating aerial viroids? That would be a truly unique divergence, as such would attach to the pond scum, mutate, and branch into a unique form of life different from what would be animals, then mammals, then apes, then man, if you choose to believe that line of thought. So, on that remark, my comments were largely to the pre-intelligence dawn of wisdom, where gargs are more earthen and nature-minded cuz it works for them. Man used to be but we develop too dang quickly in mentation. Our nature is to solve problems, seek and destroy concerns-- in essence, our own way of protection. Gargs just go about it a different way. Rather unique really. So, evolving from animals who already possessed stone sleep abilities as a defense, and man from animals of whatever type, gargs would have the upper hand while humanoids remained un-problemsolvers. Because no animal will attack a statue. But a man will. Once man realizes the thing that has been preying on them (and this is to assume that gargs did in fact eat man-animals:) Thoughts? We COULD fear them on an instinctive level)can be killed so easily, then gargs gotta run fo da hills, man! See?

As for the weight question, a garg weighs a LOT more when stone, so the excreted waste must be substantial. I wouldn't wanna stand near a garg, for fear of getting beaned by shards if ya see my point...

Lynati, Jen, Greg W.> Excellent! Just didn't know if anyone had made a plan. We await word from The Man!

Jade Griffin
Saturday, September 11, 2004 09:51:55 PM
IP: 24.205.214.26

Happily, DVD Toons (click my name), has put an ad for Gargoyles DVD and the Amazon link up several times a week. Today, the picture is larger then usual :)
Siren
Saturday, September 11, 2004 08:57:36 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

Wow, three posts in one week - I'm in uncharted territory.

Todd>> In short, Greg the Bunny was a short-lived show (seven eps I think) that followed the cast and crew of Sweetknuckle Junction, a kids show a la Sesame Street, featuring humans and "fabricated Americans" (muppets). It actually was worth a few good laughs.

Seth Green and Eugene Levy were among the cast.

Matt Fews>> It was during the Blue Mug and there wasn't much "context" in the revelation - Greg was asked directly if Lexington was gay and he responded. Where the conversation went from there is completely lost to my memory.

Well... as far as this topic is concerned. >8)

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, September 11, 2004 08:14:27 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

GANTROS - Your piece came through the first time; you really didn't need to post it again.

What is Greg the Bunny?

And, yes, I thought myself that Ellen Yin did look a lot like Elisa (especially the outfit). Only here she's the one being assigned to a detective already working on a case instead of the other way around (the reverse of Elisa getting saddled with first Matt, then Jason, as partners). And something tells me that she's not likely to be as hospitable towards Gotham's resident "bat-winged crime-fighter" as Elisa is towards New York's.

Watched my tape of "Ill Met By Moonlight" this afternoon. A few comments on it.

This is definitely a biggie for the Shakespearean references. We have, all told:

Oberon, Titania, and the Weird Sisters as on-stage characters (plus a mention of Puck).

The female gargoyle with a triceratops-style crest turns out to be named Ophelia.

The episode title comes from Shakespeare (and, appropriately enough, "A Midsummer Night's Dream", with Oberon using it to greet Titania at a point when their marriage is on the rocks).

Oberon, preparing to pursue Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel, says "The game is afoot", a line which originally came from the "Once more unto the breach" speech in "Henry V" (although nowadays, we're more likely to associate it with Sherlock Holmes than with Shakespeare).

Goliath says "All's well that ends well" at the end.

This is the episode where we first meet Oberon and Titania (Titania as Titania, that is, so "Walkabout" doesn't count), and where we find out why all of the Third Race were gone from Avalon when Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom showed up with the eggs. I've sometimes wondered since then just what Titania did that got Oberon upset enough to divorce her and banish both her and the rest of the Third Race from Avalon. Maybe the actual deed isn't so important, since the impression that one gets is that Titania's act was more the catalyst than the cause. (I do have a theory of my own, but since I've submitted it as well to TGS, I'd better not talk about it here; I don't know if they're still using it now that I'm no longer on the staff, but in case they are....)

Oberon and Titania certainly know how to make the dramatic entrance.

When Oberon's burying the Avalon clan in the ground, the Weird Sisters exchange a little gloating look (almost like the expression on the face of the class tattletale when he's gotten someone sent to the principal's office).

Another important point in the episode: this is where it's explicitly stated that iron is to Oberon's Children what kryptonite is to Superman. Which is a real piece of folklore about the faerie-folk, of course. Bells were also something that were a strong defence against the faeries in legend, which was why making the chains into a bell worked so effectively as a means of bringing Oberon to his knees (literally) - in fact, it'd be giving him a double whammy! (I might add, though, that in the original legends, what made bells so dangerous to faeries was when they were church bells - the idea being that faeries were pagan spirits unable to endure Christianity. I doubt that such a thing would be the rationale for Oberon's problem with bells in "Gargoyles", of course.) Titania, I might add, showed some real subtlety in how she worked the clue about the bell into her words.

The same conversation about iron also brings up about silver being used against vampires and weres (the closest we get to a revelation that vampires exist in the Gargoyles Universe within any of the episodes, even though they get referred to a few other times in the series in passing mentions).

I sometimes wonder what the purpose of the volcano is on Avalon. I had a theory once that Queen Mab was imprisoned beneath it after her defeat (inspired by the stories in Greek mythology about Typhon and other monsters of chaos being stuck under volcanoes), but somebody (I think that it was Aris) pointed out that Oberon wouldn't have been likely to fight the gargoyles in the area (and cast spells upon the lava) if she had; there'd be the danger of the magical interference freeing her. (Of course, he might have been angry enough at the gargoyles to forget about that at the time.)

I wonder how many people, the first time that they saw this episode, started wondering about Anastasia once Titania explained that she was helping Goliath because of a favor that he'd done her once. (The fact that both were voiced by Kate Mulgrew obviously helped there.) In my case, I'm afraid that I saw "The Gathering" before I saw either "Walkabout" or "Ill Met By Moonlight", so I already knew the reason why. But for those who saw the episodes in their correct order, on the other hand....

The scene near the end with the Weird Sisters is intriguing. Selene (the sister representing vengeance) looks as if she's about to say or do something, when Luna (the sister representing fate) shakes her head as if restraining her. The fact that it's Luna who does this, indicating that what's keeping the Weird Sisters from going after the Avalon clan again is something to do with fate or destiny, is certainly intriguing, and makes me wonder what the Sisters would have done next. I've speculated once that they might have tried freeing Queen Mab to get her help, though of course, the problem with that strategy is that Mab most likely wouldn't be willing to settle for just clearing the mortals off of Avalon - not when there's that little matter of wanting her throne back from her son. It'd be like putting a mountain lion in your house to get rid of the mice.

Only ten episodes left to go.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, September 11, 2004 07:27:32 PM
IP: 63.186.1.237

Well, I wasn't to know that since I didn't attend G2003.

In what context did Greg describe this, because it wasn't mentioned at all in the show.

Matt Fews
Saturday, September 11, 2004 07:15:46 PM
IP: 67.71.156.148

They bring back Greg the Bunny and pull Gargoyles from Jetix... it's a mix of joy and sadness (respectively).

Matt F.>> "I don't remember anything about Lex's sexual persuasion on the show, besides the fact that he was turned on by girls, especially in the Mirror when the 3 females just happened to walk by in front of the Trio."

Greg announced at G2003 that Lexington is gay.

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, September 11, 2004 06:57:04 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Ok, Riverdale, You asked 4 it, U got it.
Matt Fews
Saturday, September 11, 2004 06:48:23 PM
IP: 67.71.156.148

Got lost so I decided to repost this:

The power went out for an hour out here in Oregon, and while I was sitting in the dark (It was midnight), I had a moment of insight. Greg has described the stone forms of gargoyles as not really stone but an organic, stone-like substance. It hit me: Coral. Coral is a stone-like organic substance. Coral starts out as a soft substance as it grows and then hardens. It isn't much of a stretch to think that it could cycle between hard and soft states, with the right evolutionary pressures and environmental triggers. Gargoyles could have evolved cellular mechanisms similar to that of coral, with biological clocks tuned to the rotation of the earth, in which during the night they would be in a soft or fleshy state, and during the day their cells would undergo a hibernation change, becoming hard and stony. by also becoming a more solid material, it would also expand (like water does from liquid to solid), repairing any superficial to moderate damage to the flesh.

Gantros
Saturday, September 11, 2004 04:51:58 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

WHAT?? They're bringing back Greg the Bunny? Do you have a link? Details? Newsclipping? ANYTHING??
Riverdale - [michael@twogargs.com]
Calgary, AB, Canada
Saturday, September 11, 2004 04:07:27 PM
IP: 68.147.120.75

Since IFC has brought back Greg the Bunny, maybe they can bring back Gargoyles.

Just a thought.

Matt Fews
Saturday, September 11, 2004 02:25:03 PM
IP: 67.71.157.126

matt, I don't remember anything about Lex's sexual persuasion on the show, besides the fact that he was turned on by girls, especially in the Mirror when the 3 females just happened to walk by in front of the Trio.


Matt Fews
Saturday, September 11, 2004 02:22:33 PM
IP: 67.71.157.126

Did anyone watch "The Batman" on Kids WB! this morning? The character "Ellen Yin" looked suspiciously like Elisa Maza, and she even said "I'll drive." Heck, if you made her skin darker and let her hair down, she'd look just like Elisa!

Here are some pictures of "Ellen Yin," from the Kids WB! webpage:

http://kidswb.warnerbros.com/files/kidswb/us/zp-424/547/BTM_GAL01_EP001_PIC03.jpg

http://kidswb.warnerbros.com/files/kidswb/us/zp-424/622/BTM_GAL03_EP003_PIC01.jpg

http://kidswb.warnerbros.com/files/kidswb/us/zp-424/633/BTM_GAL03_EP003_PIC12.jpg

http://kidswb.warnerbros.com/files/kidswb/us/zp-424/636/BTM_GAL03_EP003_PIC15.jpg

Is it just me, or are those two pics reminiscent of Deadly Force?

D. Taina
Saturday, September 11, 2004 01:09:37 PM
IP: 172.208.242.205

Forgive all my typos... I still haven't had caffeine yet this morning. Ugh.
Patrick
Saturday, September 11, 2004 08:48:27 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Ellen > I suppose it would depend on where gargoyles evolved and spread out from. Current theory has it that all modern humans are descended from a population of about three to four thousand homo sapiens that began spreading out of Africa at about the same time as Neanderthal Man was going extinct. By that time, they were genetically indistinguishable and modern day humans and already had developed primitive language culture. So unless gargoyles, too, evolved in Africa, the kind of comingling you're suggesting could not have taken place in early pre-history. Localized interaction could have taken place as the migrating groups of humans came into contact with gargoyles, but that would be a mixing of language and culture, not a joint development of a common one.

87 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Saturday, September 11, 2004 08:47:36 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I've been sitting back, skimming the comment room for the past few days. #1: Trying to figure out what my input into the fandom is, and could be. #2: Waiting to see what came of the whole nonverbal communication discussion.

I have no answer to either #1 or #2.

However, I do have some thoughts on #2. When I first saw this discussion pop up, the first thing I thought of was another fandom I'm in. The characters never speak a word to each other, there is a very loose script they follow, which contains actions that should occur, but it's a suggestion, just a strong suggestion. They speak through using eye contact, facial expressions, and body movements.

Let's pull to Gargoyles, and look at the different means of expression that could be used.

Touch: Touching someone will get their attention. If you rest your hand on someone's shoulder, they give you their attention, or tell you to wait while they finish another conversation or what they are doing.

Sight: The best way to observe emotion. Emotion is expressed through facial and body movements. When someone's sad, they tend to hang or drag more than they would normally. If a person's happy, their head is normally higher, and they stand up straighter. There is a whole range of emotions that can be seen through sight, so I'm not going to name them all.

Hearing: Hearing allows you to hear what others are verbalizing, or to hear when someone's approaching.

Other sense: This normally comes from being with people long enough, you can tell what they're going to do by their movements, you can tell when someone's near without having to physically hear them.

Now for my thoughts/opinions on the 'evolution' of communication, relating to Gargoyles, and to humans.

Gargoyles kept what they knew. Using their nonverbals to emote, not necessarily relying on verbal communication. The reason they adopted verbalizing, was to interface with the humans. Why? Read on.

Humans had strong nonverbals, but at some point decided to use verbals much more than nonverbals. Humans rely on verbal communication much more than they do on nonverbal. I assume a trust issue devloped in regards to the nonverbal. Were they sure they were reading the emotes correctly?

Because the humans decided to rely on verbal communication, names gained in importance. Their heavy trust of verbal made a few of the Gargoyles have to learn to interface with them in the human way.

Now, let me clarify anything I've hinted at. Gargoyles did not not use verbals, they just didn't rely on them as much. The reverse for the humans, we still use nonverbals, we just don't rely on them too much anymore.

Now I hope that came out how I wanted.

/Patricia

Patricia Lovelady - [sabre0link@hotmail.com]
Montevallo, AL, USA
Saturday, September 11, 2004 04:53:28 AM
IP: 68.212.209.73

THe power went out for an hour out here in Oregon, and while I was sitting in the dark (It was midnight), I had a moment of insight. Greg has described the stone forms of gargoyles as not really stone but an organic, stone-like substance. It hit me: Coral. Coral is a stone-like organic substance. Coral starts out as a soft substance as it grows and then hardens. It isn't much of a stretch to think that it could cycle between hard and soft states, with the right evolutionary pressures and environmental triggers. Gargoyles could have evolved cellular mechanisms similar to that of coral, with biological clocks tuned to the rotation of the earth, in which during the night they would be in a soft or fleshy state, and during the day their cells would undergo a hibernation change, becoming hard and stony. by also becoming a more solid material, it would also expand (like water does from liquid to solid), repairing any superficial to moderate damage to the flesh.
Gantros
Saturday, September 11, 2004 04:12:01 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

About that gargoyle telepathy/language/communication theory that Greg sketched out recently: It's interesting, but what if its basic premise is flawed? What if gargoyles didn't adopt human language, but the other way around? More specifically, what if the two races adopted each other's language, by way of linguistic commingling? Say we were to view the primitive gargoyle clans simply as sentient societies developing side-by-side with other sentient societies (i.e. human ones). Granted, the contact the gargoyle clans would have with the humans in their areas would be limited by the gargoyles' nocturnal nature, and on top of it would likely be commonly tainted by prejudices stemming from the differences in the two races' appearance. But contact would presumably take place nonetheless, and with it, naturally, verbal communication. If the gargoyles were to adopt linguistic characteristics -- words, phrases, idioms, etc. -- from their human counterparts, why wouldn't the humans adopt such characteristics from their gargoyle counterparts as well? In other words, unless I'm missing some fundamental parameter here on the development of either race, I don't accept the implication that the linguistic development of the two races would necessarily be a one-way street, with the gargoyles adopting human language and not vice versa.
Ellen
Chicago
Saturday, September 11, 2004 03:45:25 AM
IP: 64.12.116.144

the things i'd like to see in a new season of Gargoyles (in no particular order):

1. i'd like to see if and HOW they handled Lex's homosexuality.

2. i'd like to see how Clan's around the world reacted to Gargoyles being revealed. do they remain hidden? do they "come out"? will people suspect that gargoyles live in their cities? what about the English Clan? Ishimura?

3. would love to see some threads tied up. Zafiro or Jade and Turquesa retrieve the Sun Amulet, Coldstone and Coldfire get rid of Coldsteel and return to the Clan maybe, things like that.

4. love Griff a lot so i'd love to see more of his adventures with Arthur and their quest, even though i'm not a huge Arthur/Merlin fan. Griff is enough for me to be very interested.

5. would love to see how Broadway and Angela's relationship pans out. love to see Brook's reactions, and Goliath's and Demona's.

and last but not least,
6. who doesn't want to know what Titania whispered to Fox? : )

matt
Friday, September 10, 2004 10:38:41 PM
IP: 68.90.74.136

Just to make clear what I meant by the progression of Goliath and Elisa's relationship, here is a bit more detail on the key points of the episodes I mentioned:

Awakening: When Elisa comment's that it's easy for them (Goliath and Hudson) to glide with those wings, but how was she going to get around the city, Goliath scoops her up into his arms, and has a smile (more like a smirk) on his face looking at her, then it disappears with an awkward cough.

Eye of the Beholder: Rather self-explanatory with their "Beauty and the Beast" Halloween dance. Further enhanced by the onlooking Trio's comments. Lex, with somewhat dreamy look: "They should have Halloween more often,"; Brooklyn: "Yeah..."

The Mirror: When Goliath and Gargoyle-Elisa glide together, Goliath comments that when she was human, he never realized how beautiful she was. She asks if he thought she was ugly as a human, at which he becomes a bit flustered and abruptly changes the subject, "Uh...Lookout, updraft!". The invisible line becomes more visible at the "epilogue" when Goliath tries to say something but is stopped by Elisa as he turns to stone. "I know, but's the way it is," Elisa says sadly as she leaves the clocktower.

Sanctuary: While consoling MacBeth after Demona and Thailog flee, he sagely says that Demona showed MacBeth that he was capable of love, and that he should keep searching, for "she" is out there. While saying this he looks at Elisa, who kind of looks away, smiling.

Hunter's Moon, Part 3: Again self-explanatory with the kiss at the castle at the very end.

The Journey: Just before the chase scene, Elisa gets dressed up to meet Goliath, something that suggests their relationship had matured since "Hunter's Moon". Any confirmation is lost with the Quarrymen attack and the chase through the city.
Gantros
Friday, September 10, 2004 09:04:01 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Todd Jensen > at comic con this year they showed us a clip of the new batman cartoon it looks really good. It was at the batman movie pannel. They redesigned batman to look darker in the animation then the usual animations. The movie looks really good too because they went back to the roots of how he became batman and strayed away from all the wierd sci fi sets.
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Friday, September 10, 2004 08:52:38 PM
IP: 209.179.211.8

I'm a bit curious to see what "The Batman" will be like. It's certainly going to be difficult for me to adjust to anyone other than Kevin Conroy doing Batman's voice (especially since the preview of the series that I saw last Saturday had Batman speaking in a lighter voice than I'm used to), but it could be fun. I was able to adjust to the differences between "X-Men: TAS" on FOX and "X-Men: Evolution" without any trouble, so maybe I'll be able to adjust similarly to the differences between "Batman: TAS" and "The Batman". And Greg Weisman will be working on the project (not to mention Clancy Brown, the voice of Hakon and Wolf, who'll be providing the voice of Mr. Freeze). We'll just have to see.

As to what I'd like to see if "Gargoyles" got a new season:

1. The Quarrymen and public response to the gargoyles done properly. By which I mean, the Quarrymen as mostly frightened citizens driven by their fear of the gargoyles to take up hammers in what they believe is the defence of themselves and their families rather than Castaway's hired goons, Castaway's identity as Jon Canmore in disguise being used, and a real gradual progression of the humans in understanding gargoyles rather than the "automatic reset" after every episode until the end of "Angels in the Night".

2. More about Matt's investigation of the Illuminati. The last that we saw of it was at the end of "Revelations", where he found out that his old partner Hacker had been "one of them" all along. I'd really like to see what happens after that.

3. More about King Arthur and Griff's search for Merlin.

4. What the Weird Sisters are up to next. Their actions at the end of "Ill Met By Moonlight" did have a certain ominous quality to them.

5. Seeing just what Xanatos is up to now (he may have made peace with the gargoyles, but they were only a small part of his schemes; most of his supposed attempts to capture them really had a different purpose behind them).

6. What will Demona do now, with the whole world aware of gargoyles, and plenty of humans after them?

And seeing more of Goliath and Elisa would be good, too.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, September 10, 2004 07:06:35 PM
IP: 63.186.1.60

Since it appears I have the ability to start up controversy (whether that's a good thing remains to be seen... ;P), I've decided to start up a another chat topic:

If Gargoyles were to be given another season, not including the episodes past "The Journey", what storylines would you like to see be explored based on what has been seen in the series?

I, for one, would like to see some more resources put into exploring Goliath and Elisa's relationship. The way they beat around the bush would rival most anime love triangles (Like Tenchi Muyo!, and there's only the two of them! The attraction was barely noticable in "Awakening", it was more pronounced in "Eye of the Beholder", it was obvious in "The Mirror", it was practically an admission in "Sanctuary", and it looked like they were finally going to take the next step after the end of "Hunter's Moon" (not _THAT_ step!), and they seemed like they decided to start "dating" in "The Journey". But then Greg left and the whole thing did a 180 as the new team tried to wrap up the series on a high note politically, and all the internal nuances were scrapped.
Gantros
Friday, September 10, 2004 05:21:18 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Kay, Jen, what is her E-mail address.

I was told that she might mail it out to me on Aug. 12th and I still haven't had any sign of it.

Matt Fews
Friday, September 10, 2004 12:03:11 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Lynati - I think I'll wait for Greg's word on it. Sorry. As eager as we all are... we all just can't jump up and say "Okay NOW". I'll let the lead guy take the lead.

Matt - Siryn doesn't have your Program. Karine, the 2004 Con-chair, does. You should drop her an e-mail instead of asking Siryn.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [crzydemona@gmail.com]
Friday, September 10, 2004 11:29:28 AM
IP: 207.178.216.226

FYI, The Batman airs tomorrow morning, Can't wait.

Killer Croc, Two-Face, the Joker, oh my.

Head over here for some kewl pics of Brooklyn & Griff.

Yoohoo, Siryn, I still haven't received my Program from you.

Matt Fews
Friday, September 10, 2004 08:06:56 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Hello all,

I hope the return to school is an easy transition. I was going through Gargoyle box and came across the radio script from the LA Gathering (ah good times). I had an idea that I thought I'd toss out. For the next DVD maybe adding the original scripts for a couple of episodes. As I understand it getting folks for audio commentary takes a lot of effort. But the scripts are still on file somewhere. I found it interesting reading additional scenes in the Hunters Moon script that didn't get made.

Any thoughts?

Taleweaver
Friday, September 10, 2004 12:52:23 AM
IP: 66.81.105.107

Umm, I kinda hope that we get the new system in place of handling previously answered questions in Ask Greg pretty soon. Upcoming pretty soon is the guy who posted 33 questions in one single day.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, September 9, 2004 11:48:27 PM
IP: 67.14.195.8

Greg > goodness' sake, please don't apologize to ME!!! ;)
Christine
Thursday, September 9, 2004 06:55:25 PM
IP: 67.136.137.107

Greg W. : Ah. Then we shall await your word. ; )
Lynati
Thursday, September 9, 2004 05:13:52 PM
IP: 4.139.48.29

Gargoyles DVD>Anyone know if there will be any other languages or subtitles?
Siren
Thursday, September 9, 2004 04:29:41 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

*blatantly side-steps the prevailing subject of gargoyle excrement*

CKayote/Gargoyles and names>> Gargoyles would clearly have a keener sense of smell than humans, and Greg has said it's their sense of smell is one of the things that prevents mating within a specific genetic family, given that gargoyles don't otherwise keep track of parentage and who their biological relatives are. But as for names, I don't think a sense of smell accounts for a lack of names; a lack of necessity does.

A gargoyle clan doesn't need names as humans do because of the size of the clan, their varying physical appearances and their tendency to remain within their protectorate which, though it might be the size of London or New York City today, back in the 10th century was a castle and the fields and forests immediately beyond.

If a typical clan of gargoyles numbers 80-100 (as Greg has said is the limit before they off and colonize elsewhere), all the gargoyles look different and are in strict age brackets, why bother with assigning everybody a name? And with such a localized territory to protect, simply naming what and where something is suffices for a more qualitative name; Wyvern in its original location would just be on the cliff next to "the sea" - the clan at the time wouldn't need to know that they were by the Atlantic Ocean because it's unlikely that they would have seen any other oceans and need to make the distinction.

Humans *have* to name things as the size of our population, the expanse of the territory we cover and the general lack of diversity in our visages (at least nothing as extreme as gargoyles' diversity) require us to qualify ourselves and our surroundings.

*But*, and I'm making a ~broad~ assumption here about your surroundings (which are hopefully still mostly in tact), think about how you refer to things in your immediate area to well-known friends. You make runs to "the store," you go to "the mall," catch a movie at "the theater," etc. But when you start talking to somebody not familiar with the area, you go to x mall because y mall is too far away, x theater because y theater is too expensive, etc. So even at times in our culture we don't tag on specific names until it becomes necessary to do so.

So it's not that the gargoyles had another way of distinguishing their clanmates and surroundings and used that in place of a name, names as humans have them just weren't needed to qualify things.

Now, when it became evident to Goliath et al. that Elisa would be around for a while and she "needed" to name things, there arrived a necessity to adopt names - to make things easier on a friend. Frankly, I think that if Elisa hadn't shown up and the Manhattan clan had stayed isolated in the castle that they wouldn't have adopted names so quickly, if at all. They might have learned the names of their surroundings for purposes of reference, but among themselves they might have just stayed with whatever they were using in 994 as there would be no apparent reason to change; however, as Greg has said, some human customs just catch on and they might very well have adopted names at some point.

...whew, I didn't mean to ramble so much on that one. Other thoughts?

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Thursday, September 9, 2004 03:12:56 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Matt - Generally, I stop by about once a week tops. And I skim. And, yes, I skip things if they seem to have original ideas. This stuff about comparing Christine's take on Garg Reproduction to mine isn't problematic, because my version is already established in the series and hers is so different -- and so not the direction I'd go (sorry CM) -- that I'm not worried about elements of it getting into some future version.

Lynati - I am trying to get advice from Disney as to when is the best time for that mass buying/ordering thing. Unfortunately, John Hanna is currently on jury duty. As soon as I know something, I'll let you guys know. BELIEVE ME!
Greg Weisman
Thursday, September 9, 2004 02:31:28 PM
IP: 4.231.169.91

Wasn't offended, like I said. I just felt a little uncomfy with it, not wanting to bother Greg. But if he's cool with it, fine by me.

(thanks, Greg, you're a doll!)

Christine
Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:54:06 PM
IP: 67.136.137.109

Jade> Tempest comes home in 8 days (YAY!!!) & we're moving into our new apartment on the 19th. *is excited* Other than that..okay. ~_^ I wish I was living in Australia again though. ;D *hugs back*

Breaktime over back to work!

Siryn
Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:32:02 PM
IP: 68.44.127.112

Jade Griffin
<On garg evolution, Greg mentioned during the G'04 blue mug-a-guest that gargs evolved much like humans did. Not from the same critter but along those same routes.>
Since to the best of my knowledge, human evolution involved tree-climbing, tool usage, and evasion of predators, I'm not sure what Greg is referring to. Could you elaborate?

Mass and gliding>> I would think that excreting often, like birds, would benefit gargoyles. A species dependent on gliding through the air has to eliminate wasted mass. Then again, I think that gargoyles should have light but immensly efficient muscles with tremendous strength per pound of flesh, like cougars. Also, although Greg thought that gargoylean strength suggests that gargoylean bones must not be hollow, I am dubious. Hollow structures are known for strength. (Though I am not sure about resistance to blows to the sides of such bones )

This suggests a question to me. To the biologists out there, how much reinforcement does the marrow of mammals give to mammalian bones?

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Thursday, September 9, 2004 10:45:19 AM
IP: 4.247.155.187

I'm getting visions now of Owen having to follow Bronx all around the castle each night with an industrial-size pooper-scooper in his good hand. Now there's an unenviable job.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 9, 2004 07:12:26 AM
IP: 63.186.1.158

Sounds good to me, Lynati.

I remember the room having a discussion about all the dvds being released on 12/7. Well, I just read that the Return of the King:Extended Edition has been pushed back a week to 12/14.

Nickerous
Thursday, September 9, 2004 03:37:38 AM
IP: 66.220.74.118

[Um... still waiting for a reply on synchronizing for Amazon.com. Has everyone already done it and not said anything? Need ta know, k? ]

I haven't heard anything yet either.

So, I would like to propose OCTOBER 4th as the date to do it. It's a fitting date as the anniversary of the clan waking up, and it gives us time to (attempt to) coordinate the fandom.

What does the rest of the room think?? *pokes the room*

Lynati
Thursday, September 9, 2004 02:30:23 AM
IP: 4.139.18.30

Um... still waiting for a reply on synchronizing for Amazon.com. Has everyone already done it and not said anything? Need ta know, k?

Ckayote> That is the clincher. Which age does 'age' begin. Sorry if I spelled yer handle wrong.. :/
Siryn> *lol* How is life at home?
Demonscrye> Cool point on language! That and deciphering biology I find cool to do. Some don't but we luv 'em anyway:) *huugs her Si*

Jade Griffin
Thursday, September 9, 2004 01:14:20 AM
IP: 24.205.211.146

Lynati: Are you counting age from laying or hatching?

Excretion: I can't imagine that they don't do it the conventional way during the night. Though part of that stems from a rather immature but still remotely amusing 'creativity demon' I had a long time ago.

Garg Language: Pheremones have been mentioned, but what about smell?
I know it sounds wierd, but what if pre-human-era gargoyles were scent focused than audio? We humans rely mostly on our eyes and ears, so when we name something we're associating a sound with a visual image.
Maybe Gargoyles used scents to identify each other rather than words. Associating words with things was unneccesary because they could already smell it.
I do grant that spoken language would needed for verbs and stuff, but it would explain the lack of names.

But I have to agree with Shara, I really do not want to be think about the character's sex lives while watching the show.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:30:46 AM
IP: 64.192.75.23

Lynati> If you are referring to "Concrete", it only has to do with the vague similarity of Concrete's stone skin to that of Gargoyle's stone sleep.
I figured that Gargoyle's stone sleep, like Concrete's skin, may be a form of waste management. While I may have gone too far in suggesting that the shedding of stone skin is the only way to remove waste, I still believe that it plays a major role in a gargs immune system, by pushing out viruses, bacteria and other harmful particles into the outer layer, where they are shed in the final layer.

Also, here's the link to my VH1 "I Love the 90's" Post on Gargoyles. Keep it on the first page by replying with your support of getting it on "Strikes Back"!. UK fans can use the zipcode 97212 during registration. Here's the link:

http://www.vh1.com/interact/boards/main.jhtml/i_love_the_90s/ViewThread?tID=615096&mID=3215955&offset=0&index=0

Gantros
Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:30:42 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Gargoyles must have the same kind of digestive system, start to finish, as any other vertebrate. I've heard Broadway belch too many times to believe any differently.
Patrick
Thursday, September 9, 2004 12:12:20 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Siryn: Got it, and thanks.

Jade Griffon: Well, I just posted a rant in TGS about population dynamics and why I think Weisman's theory *does* make more sense, so I'll skip that here and go right to

[stone skin as secreted waste fits nicely. Greg sorta eluded to that in the mug-a-guest, too.]

Yes, and that humans do excrete some wastes through their skin as well. I think what people keep tip-toeing around and not actually clearly stating (I'm referring to both Ask Greg posts and the way it was phrased at the Blue Mug when asked) is whether or not gargs have a working digestive track, and bowel movements. Which I think is a silly question. Gargs are very similar to every other (vertebrate) species on the planet when it comes to the need to eat, sleep, breathe, and how they procreate. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't defecate as well; and if they didn't, then why did they evolve with the same body structure as all the other species that need to?

As for that alien thing that Gantros keeps bringing up...Gargoyles aren't aliens. And on a separate note, I happen to think that little scenelet he keeps referencing is really tacky...but then, I have been stuck with extended time babysitting younger cousins who were obsessed with toilet humor. x.x

Lynati
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:47:45 PM
IP: 4.139.33.184

Bronx will chew Pluto up and spit him out ;)
Siren
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:42:49 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

GREG B> How many time must I repeat that the Complete Pluto is comming out on the same day?!? Come on, the dog is 73 years old! Give him his due!!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
GO CANADA GO!!! , Canada
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:38:15 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

I'm with si on this whole gargoyle matting thing. Being ignorant is good. I will play dumb and sit here and do "DUH" ;-)
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 09:21:28 PM
IP: 209.179.33.64

My local paper does DVD reviews too. I hope they do one of Gargs
Siren
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 06:59:09 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

MATT FEWS - I already said that the kitten's name was Obie. Please read over my original post. (I hope that that didn't come across as too cross.)

BISHANSKY - Good news about the new date for "The Return of the King" DVD. I hope that that means that "Gargoyles" will get more attention on December 7 (particularly in the DVD section of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch for that morning; it does regular reviews of DVDs being released each Tuesday).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 06:44:25 PM
IP: 63.186.0.239

Greg Weisman> i wonder how you handle reading Comment Room material since it often contains ideas and things of that nature. you refuse to read questions containg ideas, which is totally understandable, but what do you do in this room? do you just skip over stuff that looks like an idea or do you read it knowing no one can prove you read it and thus can not blame you for stealing their idea.

Return of the Kind DVD> looks like they got scared of competeing with Gargoyles! : )

matt
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 04:27:23 PM
IP: 68.90.74.136

Christine - I do appreciate the concern, but this is a fan forum, and I'm not at all uncomfortable with the discussion. Certainly not offended by it. But thanks for the props.
Greg
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 02:06:16 PM
IP: 4.232.216.114

More good news for the DVD.

THe release date for the extended edition of "The Return of the King" has been pushed back to December 14th.

Even less competition for our DVD. Is there anything else coming out the 7th worth owning?

Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 01:53:41 PM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Dood...I wish the Gathering was in *MY* hometown..and how many staffs have I been on?

Then again...I'd probably end up moving 3 times before the date of the con..so umm nevermind. ^_^;;;;

Lynati..haven't forgotten about that design file thingee I promised to send..just been out of it. Sending tonight. Promise. (even if it's scribble)

And..as for the whole birthing process of Gargoyles..I shall and forever will remain..blissfully ignorant. hehe. ;D

Vote for artists in MGC! ;D

Siryn - [<--vote vote in MGC!]
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 01:03:15 PM
IP: 68.44.127.112

Matt> Let me try putting it another way. Some couples develop a little non-verbal communication when they've been together for a long time. Perhaps early gargoyles, living in clans and growing up together, were able to do this to a much greater degree.

And I'm sorry to hear about Zeke. I've had (and still have) several rodents sharing my home, including many gerbils. My condolences on your loss.

Christine> I am sorry if you feel any personal offense about this discussion. However, I do remember (a loooong time ago) asking Greg whether he felt discussion of fanfiction and original idea in the comment room was OK since he did pop in now and then. He said yes and I'm assuming that still holds.

And even though I don't find voluntary fertility quite believable biologically, I do find it quite appealing personally. :)

Alternate Theory on Early Gargoyle Communication> I like this one better since it involves no telepathy of any kind.

Let's say this time around that gargoyles did have their own verbal language at one point. I tend to imagine that they developed a gestural language as well that may have continued alongside the spoken one. The spoken language would have made it easier to communicate with someone who was some distance away or otherwise hard to see. But it would have been a fairly limited language. Restricted to things that couldn't be communicated any other way. Light on nouns. Very little naming.

Then humans develop tools with the potential to smash stone. The gargoyle race is no longer invulnerable. Some fighting between human and gargoyle may take place, but the gargs are smart enough to realize that their involuntary stone sleep is now a huge liability. Once the humans discover them during the day, it's all over. And let's say that the humans are smart enough to realize that they're still vulnerable. Not only to gargoyles at night, but to various other predators. By this time, let's say, humans have domesticated some animals (let me know if this is prehistoricly inaccurate). So they realize the potential of having another species on their side. With work on both sides, an alliance is formed.

When the problem of language comes up, the gargoyle language loses out for lackof size and specificity. Human language lets a warrior paint a more accurate picture of excatly what is on the other side of that mountain. As Greg has said, naming is addictive, and that applies to objects and actions and colors and just about anything else, not just gargoyles.

Demonskrye
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 01:00:17 PM
IP: 67.100.23.24

If gargoyles secrete all waste through the shedding of stone skin, then they must have a digestive and cardio-vascular system totally unlike any other vertebrate on the planet. They would have no need for intestines or kidneys, for example. Nor would they be able to engage in any type of binge activity, as they would lack the ability to process mass quantities of food or beverage as needed. In other words, no kegger parties at Castle Wyvern.

So IMO, the whole scenario sounds rather dubious.

90 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:34:58 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Ogres and giants might have roots as gargoyles too.
Siren
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:17:40 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

Todd, check out the story Hands of Time in this year's PGA and congrats on the new pussy, what is it's name going to be.
Matt Fews
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 08:23:12 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

MATT - I'm sorry to hear about Zeke. My condolences to you.

I didn't pick Obie's name for her; she'd already been given it at the Humane Society, and I decided to keep it for the sake of simplicity. (I also didn't find out how they came up with the name for her.) Because of her almost Halloweenish black and orange fur, I thought at first of calling her "Morgan" after Morgan le Fay, before I found out that she'd already been named, but I think that Obie suits her better.

If gargoyle waste products are part of the stone skin, that eliminates my rather naughty little creativity demon about Bronx lifting his hind leg next to a Steel Clan or Coyote robot.... At least it also means that the clan doesn't need to take him for walks (at least, not for that purpose, though for general exercise is another story). I recall some years ago reading a very funny fanfic about Hudson having to take Bronx for a walk in Central Park (in typical fashion, Bronx showed no need to go out for a walk until Hudson had settled down comfortably in his armchair to watch something on television that he hadn't seen before and had been looking forward to, and THEN needs to go out).

As for gargoyle breeding, I accept Greg's version too, when I think about it. (I'm not enough of a biology expert to do much speculation over the physical sciences relate to gargoyles; my speculations generally revolve more around the history of the species and what legendary beings they could have inspired - we know or suspect that they were the inspiration for unicorns, griffons, feathered serpents and tengu, that gargoyle beasts were the inspiration for the "black dogs" of Britain and Ireland, and I have a strong suspicion that gargoyles could also have given rise to troll legends since trolls were supposed to turn to stone in the daytime.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 07:10:40 AM
IP: 63.186.1.184

Matt> as for the long gestation in the egg, I might chalk it up to prior evolution determining (before humans got smart) that at the top you don't need to rush reproduction or you'll start eating each other, so that may be why it is 10 years.
Jade Griffin
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 02:49:55 AM
IP: 24.205.211.146

Oh, and it doesn't have to be a psychic biolink at all. Don't forget biochemistry, pheromones, etc. Research proves that humans are affected by this also, even w/o their knowledge, so I hold to the theory that at a certain age/time, which is linked to the earth's cycles just for handy sake, gargs release particular pheromones and hormones at that time. Also, I believe it was Theresa Sinclair's fanfics that brought up the point that is interesting: Do gargs have a one night stint or is it 3 nights like she suggests. A female may not conceive in a single night, but given three, -- the day before, during, and after a full moon can be very potent in stories -- and you get something new. similarly, she held that gargs hatch over a course of a similar three day span. Cool:) I read those like in 1997 so forgive if the memory is fuzzy. But the fics had quite the impact on lil' me:)
Jade Griffin
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 02:47:48 AM
IP: 24.205.211.146

Not to diss on CM but yes, I agree with Greg W. Simply due to the fact that I read a fanfic with it in it first and that's what I write so I gotta go there. I've a lot of theories and plots around that one factor.

On garg evolution, Greg mentioned during the G'04 blue mug-a-guest that gargs evolved much like humans did. Not from the same critter but along those same routes. So, I think we can see a neat pattern here. A pattern seen in many animals: evolution changes many things, just like environments change. The ancestors of gargs developed the stone sleep for protection and to get up strength, maybe even conserving energy if food sources were skimpy. They would communally clutch and their protective nature and clan like behavior is for this purpose: protect the young and the food territory. But as creatures like man evolved more brain power, the tables turned. Before, gargs could be at the top of the food chain if they desired and not much could hurt them during the day. Nocturnal hunters who are protected by stone hides at day are hard to beat. An animal up against a rock does not think it will be hurt and leaves it be. A human who thinks it is a demon is sure to tip it over. So the scales were tipped and gargs began the decline of their populations, as well as the necessity to hide from humans, as well as fey I'd imagine. Fey are too powerful and arrogant to not push gargs around and what's a garg gonna do?

That, and I do feel that the stone skin as secreted waste fits nicely. Greg sorta eluded to that in the mug-a-guest, too.

Jade Griffin
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 02:44:48 AM
IP: 24.205.211.146

I admit my knowledge of gargoyles is limited as I have only started watching the series again since May, but I am trying to make up for my lack of fandom by doing what I can now.

Here's the link to my VH1 "I Love the 90's" Post on Gargoyles. Keep it on the first page by replying with your support of getting it on "Strikes Back"!. UK fans can use the zipcode 97212 during registration. Here's the link:

http://www.vh1.com/interact/boards/main.jhtml/i_love_the_90s/ViewThread?tID=615096&mID=3215955&offset=0&index=0

Gantros
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 01:35:52 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

"binding" cats is an old wives tale. Cats will go where they want to if given the chance. One should simply keep their cat indoors to protect them from disease, wild animals, and other hazards. As well as protect wild species from being killed off by cats. You can't program a cat to stay in that territory or not run to it's old territory.
Siren
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:38:04 AM
IP: 24.165.226.56

Actually, I kinda like how Greg Weisman has indicated that Gargoyle breeding seasons are tied to natural biorhythms on Earth. This means that things can be kept relatively simple: every gargoyle clan around the world shares the same dates for when a female can become pregnant and when a female can give birth to an egg. This simplicity is quite essential when you think about the problems that could occur if gargoyle clans from around the world weren't in sync for laying/hatching eggs and gargoyle clans wanted to exchange eggs.

I remember seeing something on PBS about some Indian villages in the American Southwest having building perfectly aligned with the setting of the sun in certain years and perfectly aligned with the moon's rise in certain years. With the moon, I think it was 38 years for the pattern.

DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:17:31 AM
IP: 67.14.195.47

What can I say, I like the idea of voluntary fertility ;)

And while I'm much slower to take offense these days, I do feel an eensy bit uncomfortable with this whole Greg's-way-versus-my-way discussion in here ... Greg does drop in from time to time, and I doubt he'd want to see all that. He's the boss and all. What he says, goes. I'm just a radical ;)

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:05:46 AM
IP: 67.136.147.142

I recall reading that you should keep a new cat indoors for a couple weeks so they can "bind" themselves to that location, to use MMO speak. The idea is that cats and other animals can sense Magnetic fields and in a way know where they are in relation to what they percieve as their home/family. This is why you sometimes hear stories of pets that run away from new homes to old ones even if they are on opposite sides of a continent.
Gantros
Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:02:46 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

i'm in total agreement with you on Gargoyle breeding and telepathy. if they do have a sort of telepathy, its not the sort we usually think of. they have a link with the rythms of the Earth, but that could mean a lot in itself. do they breed when the stars are in the right positions, or when the suns cycle gets to a certain point or after so many days, seasons, moon-cycles etc go by? point is, we don't know what the natural Earth rythms Greg is talking about.
nevertheless, i'm a huge fan of Greg's way of gargoyle breeding. evolutionarily, it makes sense. ostriches and other animals put all their eggs in a communal rookery for their safety. everyone's reproductive success is improved more when you have a flock of adults protecting one nest rather than an adult or two each protecting many nests. and since you don't want there to always be nests to protect it makes sense if all the females lay eggs at the same time, which ostriches can do without having a "flock meeting" about. ostriches breed with the annual cycle. no one needs to tell them its time to breed, the year cycles around and they just do it.
i do wonder why gargoyles have such a long breeding period though. part of it is that they have such long lifetimes of course, but there has to be more to it than that. there has to be a reason gargoyles only breed every twenty years and there has to be a reason it takes ten years for the eggs to hatch. obviously, this pattern was established very early in their evolution and has changed little because both gargs and beasts share this cycle. so whats so great about the 20/10 cycle? i have a couple theories:
1. since gargs don't sit on their eggs and they are kept in cool caverns and the like, the eggs metabolism is lowered so much that they have to take much longer to develop.
2. the eggs must take extra time to get into rythm with the Earth.
3. my favorite theory, the eggs space themselves out from rookeries coming before and after them to prevent inbreeding. since gargs have communal rookeries, it is almost impossible for gargs to know blood relatives, and if eggs were hatching every year or something there would be lots of brothers and sisters and cousins who were all about the same age with no idea if they are related or not. so early in their evolution, gargoyles started spacing out their rookeries, thus encouraging mating with your own generation and avoiding most inbreeding. obviously a garg could still mate with a cousin and sometimes gargs from two different generations could mate, but that isn't the norm it seems. maybe Greg's scent markers come into play here to discourage anything incestuous.
just my thoughts, feel free to comment, question or criticize...

and for the record i believe a humans (or any animals) sixth sense is merely another sense (or combination of senses) working on a very minute scale. for instance, sensing someone coming up behind you is likely your sense of hearing picking up small sounds and vibrations, your sense of touch picking up tiny changes in air pressure or your sense of smell alerting you to a presence behind you. it might sound unbelievable to some, but your senses are much more powerful than you realize... and its certaintly more believeable than some sixth sense.
and as for the gut feeling about a wrong choice or whatever... thats probably your COMMON sense alerting you...

RIP Zeke, one of my beloved gerbils. died today. was only middle aged, but suffered through health problems his whole life. he was born a runt of his litter and never reached normal adult size. his brother and his friends will miss him.

don't deaths happen in 3s?

matt
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 11:30:39 PM
IP: 68.90.74.136

The fertility by committee was the way I interpreted it, and may not necessarily be shared by CM. I'm just making that clear so as not to potentially offend CM.
Gantros
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:57:41 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Todd>AAAAAAWWWWWWW how cute hehe about your new kitty. I like the name you picked for him :)
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:34:33 PM
IP: 209.179.32.236

Todd> Congratulations on the new kitten (and I'm glad to hear you were able to get to a Human Society). While new pets can never replace the ones we lose, they can gelp us focus on building a new relationship instead of our grief.

Merlin's name was of obvious origin. Where did Obie get hers?

Siren> Nice to know there's another rabbit person on the board. Larry and Blitz joined our household about a year ago and have happily settled into our kitchen with relatively few mishaps along the way.

Gantros> I've also read "Concrete" and have similarly thought about how his biological functions might apply to gargoyles. While I don't think this accounts for all of their bodily waste production, it does seem like a very likely explanation of how a garg's body disposes of waste during stone sleep and why there isn't a line for the bathroom right after sunset.

As for garg fertility, I've gotta go with Greg's version. I love Christine's work, but unless something in a fanfiction really speaks to me and explains some unanswered question about an aspect of the Gargoyles universe in a way that seems to fit perfectly, I don't tend to incorporate it into my thinking about the general series. As Siren pointed out, a large predatory species would not need to have a lot of offspring to ensure species survival and in fact, numerous offspring could cause disaster as resources would become scarce. Plus, I just can't quite believe the idea of "fertility by committee". Maybe I just don't understand it correctly, but it just seems to odd to me. Gargoyles are meant to be creatures of the natural world. The only thing they can do (as far as we know) that has no precedent in our natural world is turning to stone by day). Fertility by choice just seems to give them an extra dimension of weirdness that kind of pushes believability a bit too far.

Which leads into Greg's ramble from a whille back about the possibility of gargoyle telepathy, which I'm also not terribly fond of. If Greg decides that gargoyles were - at least at one point - telepathic, I'll live with it. but again, it's pushing their believability a bit. I thought about it a little and came up with something a little less unsettling for me. As humans, we occassionaly experience awareness that is ever so slightly beyond our normal perception. Most commonly, we get the sense someone is coming up behind us without our five senses really alerting us to the person's presence. In rarer cases, we get a strong feeling of something being wrong or a gut feeling about whether or not to take a certain action. The latter two examples are somewhat qustionable, but the first can fairly accurately be attributed to a sort of faded sixth sense, a level of perception that our distant ancestors could use reliably, but that we have lost in our modern world of less direct threats. So maybe gargoyles, being much closer to the earth in general than most humans, have or had an ability like this, only to a much greater degree. They are (or were) very closely attuned to the natural rhythms of the earth and even more closely attuned to each other. So at one time, perhaps they could get a sense not only of another's location, but of that other gargoyle's feelings and even meanings of otherwise somewhat vague guestures. It might seems alot like telepathy, but it isn't a direct projection of words or images or emotions into another's brain. It's more just a deeper level of awareness and understanding.

Well that was long. I'll shut up now.

Demonskrye
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:24:20 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

I like gregs way. (whispers)Although I prefur not to think about that when watching the cartoon it ruins it for me. Vizual mind here ;-)
Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:18:21 PM
IP: 209.179.32.236

Gantros>I understand what you mean, but I still prefer Greg's way.

Lyanti>Not to be nit-picky, but most vets and other dog experts do not rely on the 7 dog years measurment anymore. Even before a dog reaches 1 year of age, it can have a litter. But if we rely on the 7 dog years theory, we are saying it would be normal for a 7 year old child to have a baby. By the time a dog is 6-12 months, biologically, it's more like a teenager. If you want to talk on those terms. But 7 dog years just doesn't pan out.

Siren
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:09:18 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

Siren> The part of becoming barren was a reference to CM's "Future Imperfect" story, basically her own "Future Tense". In it, Lex and Aiden, being briefly in the future, learn from Sebastian St.John (Owen's son), that Angela and Brooklyn's first egg was destroyed when Jericho stole it for Demona. As a result, Angela bred the next year and rendered herself barren(sterile) laying her second egg.

As for the committee, the reasoning behind it is not who mates with who, it's agreeing that environmental conditions are good enough to turn on the egg factories for production, to be blunt. This way they all breed at the same time and subsequently, due to the pheromones that made them fertile in the first place, they lay at the same time as well. This is why I prefer CM's version more because it gives the gargoyles what CM wrote "the closest thing to a religious rite".
Gantros
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 09:59:05 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Gantros- it's the equivalent of 25, not 20. breeding seasons at 40/60/80 with a ten year wait until the eggs hatch gives you half the population breeding every ten years, and the other half ten years later, not everyone every twenty (chronologically) as it has been set. Even Greg corrected his math in that account. Breeding is at 50/70/90....unless you ascribe to Christine's version. (Which, you may have guessed, I do not.)
as for the biological/chronological counting...it is only biological in comparison to humans. A gargoyle that has lived thirty years may be the equivalent of a human aged fifteen years, but the gargoyle is still 30 years old. Not 15. A dog that has lived ten years might be the equivalent age of a seventy year old human, but the dog is still only 10. We usually count by actual years, not comparitive aging rates... ; )

Lynati
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 09:24:34 PM
IP: 4.139.33.25

In a sweet kinda way, I like how CM's theory allows for more offspring. Though I don't like the idea of the comitee. I think if two people are in love and want a child, it's up to them. If she becomes barren due to it, it is a reprocusion they must face. And though gargoyles numbers were less then humans in 994 and before, they weren't exactly an endangered species either. Being barren is something that is natural. Some are born that way, some become that way. It's nature's way.

In all, I prefer Greg's better. Gargoyles aren't built like humans in most forms. Humans breed like rabbits and look what that did to the world. Overpopulation, loss of land and habitat, etc. Imagine creatures twice a human's size, with twice there strength, and they glide, and they bred like humans. Gargoyles breed most similar to elephants and whales. Having the longest gestations and raising their young for a large chunk of their life. And it's not out of reality for animals to only be in breeding condition for short periods of time. Some can only breed once a year on just one day. Others do wait over a dozen years to breed again.

Siren
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 09:02:41 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

As long as the topic is Gargoyle body functions, here's a quick poll:
What version of garg breeding do you like?
Christine Morgan's or Greg's?

CM's is basically fertility by committee. Breeding cannot occur without the group consent of all breeding females. This can occur at anytime, but time must be taken between breedings, or the female risks becoming barren. Multiple eggs per female are possible (Delilah laid 4 in CM's story). Hybrids are possible through magic or scientific interference.

Greg's is you have 3 shots, and your done. After reaching maturity (20 biologically), gargs can only breed three times in their lifetimes, and only one egg per breeding is possible, with perhaps twins being the extremely rare case. gargs can only breed once every 20 years (biologically or chronologically?). According to Greg, the Manhattan clan is due for a breeding season by 2008 (I think). Hybrids are more than likely not possible.

So which do you prefer story wise?
Gantros
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 07:38:35 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

<Todd I actually posted an "Ask Greg" question about waste managment of gargoyles. I got the thought from a series of graphic novels called "Concrete". Basically, Concrete is an alien body with a human brain, and the human part of him has to deal with living in an alien body. In one of the first novels, a G-Man (CIA spook) asks about how he (Concrete) goes to the bathroom, and the scientist studying Concrete explains that as Concrete digests the rocks he eats, the waste products are either burned off in his stomach, or pushed through his flesh to the surface, which is what makes up his stone skin, which flakes off like a human's would, but much larger. At this, the G-Man exclaims, "So, you're like a giant turd? Thank God you're dry!". This made me think that gargoyles dispose of waste materials the same way through their stone sleep. Whatever they eat they digest through the night, and whatever isn't digested turns to stone along with any microbes that infect a gargoyle. As the gargoyle wakes up, the waste product is pushed out until it is concentrated on the final layer of skin, where it simply shedded.
Gantros
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 07:29:58 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Todd>True about the droppings. I'll often pick up my rabbit's dropping with my barehands (they are small, dry, and round) but gag when I use a scooper to get my dog's droppings, lol.
Also, I found keeping snakes and rats keep away the legal vistors too ;)

That's great about your new kitten. My friend named his kitten Obie too. Short for Obi Won Kenobe (don't shoot me, I know I spelt that wrong).

Siren
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 07:20:49 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

MATT - Just out of curiosity, where did the name that you gave Claw come from? Greg Weisman's never mentioned what Claw's original name was, and it hasn't been mentioned in the series, either. Are you certain that you haven't confused a name that somebody's fanfic gave him with canon?

At any rate, according to the "Future Tense" episode, Talon and Maggie had apparently been killed in a fight with Sevarius and the Ultra-Pack, the same fight that cost Broadway his eyes. They stated it pretty clearly, at that. No mystery there.

GARGOYLE BEASTS AS PETS - They might not need that much cleaning up after, according to the theory that gargoyle droppings are really part of the stone shell that they shed at nightfall. (If that's true, of course, a lot fewer people are probably going to want to hold pieces of gargoyles' stone skin!) But I can see other problems with them as house pets; their being strictly nocturnal and the sheer size and bulk that others here have already mentioned. (Though Bronx managed to climb up on the couch in the television room in the castle in "Awakening Part Four" without causing it any structural damage.) On the plus side, you'd have a lot fewer unwanted visitors (both burglars and technically legal ones - of the "relatives/dinner guests who don't seem to know when to leave" variety) with one around.

Speaking of pets, I adopted a kitten today at the Humane Society. Her name's Obie and she's a very curious and adventurous black and orange kitten, a real explorer. I think that it's helped me get over my grief of Merlin's passing (though I will continue to cherish him in my memory); now I have a new cat to love.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 06:39:54 PM
IP: 63.186.1.4

Gargoyles beasts as pets: LOL, I'd love to have one. Yes, their size and food costs would be large, but giant dogs like the St. Bernard and other large animals like horses also cost a lot. I have heard and seen several large animals become house pets. Large farm pigs and llamas have proven to make good house pets in some cases. So if you can afford a couple of horses, then a gargoyle beast shouldn't be much worse. Least in financial sense. They seem to eat cooked meat, but I am sure they can eat raw as well. And humans developed commercial food for other animals, why not gargoyle beasts? Depends if they'd eat it though. I'm guessing, most would.
Size is another issue. Are doorways wide enough? Floors strong enough? Are you going to tell an 800 gargoyle beast to get off the couch? Kinda reminds me of the children's joke...What time is it when an elephant sits on your fence? ;)

I do have a Beware of Gargoyles sign. Hehehe

Siren
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 05:56:21 PM
IP: 24.165.226.56

Bushido> I've kind of been wondering about what happened to Taro after the events of "Hunter's Moon". Obviously the Manhattan clan being exposed to the world would have made his argument that gargoyles are real seem a bit less insane. I had a small creativity demon (not big enough to merit me writing a story from it) about Taro trying the theme park idea again, but being a little more open about his intentions this time around. The Ishimura and Manhattan clans probably wouldn't trust him again, but there may be some gargoyles interested in the promise of a safe haven where they might be able to show humans that they're not really that much of a threat.

Gargoyle beasts as pets for humans> Certainly fun to think about. I think the potential downsides would be their size, making sure your floor can support a sleeping garg beast, potentialy high feeding costs, and the fact that they are up at night and asleep during the day without exception. While they might not need care during the day, they might decide that 1 in the morning is play time. For some people, it would require a major schedule adjustment.

Demonskrye
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 05:34:23 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

matt, I'd hate to see the size of the bags one might need when picking up its poop.

Anyhoo, I suggested Ottawa, only because a friend lives currently lives and I can attend the Gathering in the guise of visiting him.

Matt Fews
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 04:01:02 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

GXB> "we're not rich. I guarantee you that no one posting in here is rich."
can you be so sure? *glances around the room suspiciously...*

funny thought occured to me today... do you ever think that at some point in the future humans might want to keep garg beasts as pets? i mean, could you get a better pet? doesn't shed (at least, not fur), gets some of its energy from sunlight, does not need to be cared for or watched over during the day, fiercely loyal, intelligent and protective, but not dangerous to the innocent. not to mention that spaying and neutering are almost a non-issue czu there isn't a population crisis and they breed so slowly... anyway, its fun to think about *imagines "Beware of Gargoyle" sign* don't suppose it would ever happen, but who knows?

matt
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 03:45:33 PM
IP: 68.90.74.136

MATT> If you really want it to be in Ottawa, then get up and get together a kick ass staff and have a kick ass bid to present when the time comes. There's no real magic to it, that's what you do.

Just going into a comment or chat room somewhere and going on about how much you want the Gathering to be in your home town is unproductive. Everyone and their grandmother wants it to be in their home town. Only way that's going to happen is if there's a staff in that area who's willing to do it.

And please... we're not rich. I guarantee you that no one posting in here is rich.

Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:34:20 PM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Contrary to popular belief, no one on any Gathering con staff that I have ever served on has been "rich." Or at least, not in the Bill Gates sense of the word. If you're thinking abour running a Gathering, though, it *is* pretty much essential to have good credit and/or access to some spare funds. Having been actively involved three times now, I can tell you it's pretty much impossible to organize a convention of this size on strictly cash-in-hand basis.

91 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:32:31 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Todd, speaking of Future Tense, here's a nit that I have

I understand that it was just an illusion, but you'd think that Arthur 'Claw' Cirante would have talking by then, also where were Maggie the Cat and Talon.

Matt Fews
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:12:41 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

I REALLY want it to be in Ottawa, but if it isn't I'll totally understand.

Man, I wish I was rich like you guys.

Matt Fews
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:05:56 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

I always assumed that the amusement park was purely Taro's idea and that there was no involvement from the Yakuza, the Illuminati, or anyone else. Certainly I don't see any reason for their needing to be involved in it: why bring them in when what we saw in the series made sense by itself (Taro's desire to exploit the gargoyles economically)? Not to mention, as I said before, that Taro's decision to have the press conference at sunrise rather than sunset (when the latter would be far more dramatically effective in introducing gargoyles to the world) raises the question of how much planning really went into the project (capturing the gargoyles and keeping them there worked for a while before Elisa and Hiroshi came to the rescue, but the hour that Taro wanted the reporters there....)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 07:35:47 AM
IP: 63.186.0.244

<CKayote (Bushido) It could be implied that the Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) were behind Taro's push to make gargoyles an attraction. Perhaps after gaining the trust of the world stage, the Yakuza could manipulate the gargoyles to work in their interests, much like Xanatos did in "Awakening". If any witnesses claimed gargoyles were responsible, the public wouldn't believe it, or the Yakuza would "silence" any other evidence.
Gantros
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 01:32:38 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Also: Matt, you shouldn't be afraid to try for 2006 anyway, you have have some great ideas that can help that year's staff, or even get on their staff in case your entry doesn't make it.


You never know unless you try, and we don't get near enough entries for it, I think.

Your friendly neighborhood Gathering Empress.
Shinigami
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 01:15:08 AM
IP: 205.188.116.72

Jen"Matt Fews - Just so you are aware, the bid winners for the next years con need to attend THIS years con. So if you want to bid for 2006, your staff has to make it to 2005 or the deal is off.
... and if you are really broke... Running a convention is the last thing you want to do. It sucks up a lot of money up front that the staff has to cover until registrations come in. "

Truer words never spake, and boy did we learn THAT the hard way, we're still paying for 2003. Still, I guess once you get involved in a convention it's just really hard to turn away. Good of the fandom and all that, and I'm really looking forward to working on this year's Gathering Staff again with our Con Chair Chris, Vice-Con Chair Lanny, Treasurer Aaron and Secretary (Master of Files)Lynati.

Your friendly neighborhood Gathering Empress.

Shinigami
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 01:11:36 AM
IP: 205.188.116.72

We made it out of Frances okay. 4 trees fell in my yard. One brushed the ceiling and wall of my bedroom. 2 others were just a foot from ending up in our kitchen and dining room. We got lucky. No power since yesterday morning at 11AM. I am currently staying at a friend's house till power comes back.
Siren
Monday, September 6, 2004 10:51:19 PM
IP: 209.208.117.139

Nice to find out there's so many other Floridians here.
I don't know about everybody on the eastern coast, but that was a lame ass hurricane here in Orlando.

Todd & Everybody: Sorry for your losses. Though I think we should probably be caring more about Wingless' [human] friend than everybody's cats.

Sentinel: I have always wondered what it was that made Elisa trust Nokkar after being brainwiped. If I was her, I would have been just as afraid of Nokkar as the Gargs.

Bushido: The more I think about that one, the more I think Taro had some connection to Xanatos. Or prehaps the Illuminati (I know Greg has commented that they would know of the Ishimura clan).

Cloud Fathers: One of my favorites. No matter how many times I see it though, I find myself hoping agianst hope that Peter Maza will punch Coyote out at the end.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 6, 2004 10:45:47 PM
IP: 64.192.75.23

Thank you, Battle Beast. And thanks again, everybody. Your condolences have really meant a lot to me.

Watched my tape of "Cloud Fathers" this afternoon. The last battle between Goliath and Xanatos (unless you count "Future Tense", which I don't, since the fight there was all just an illusion of Puck's).

I've sometimes wondered (mainly when rewatching this episode) how many people figured out before the end that Peter Maza's father was dead, and what "do you want to go visit grandfather?" really meant. Unfortunately, I can't recall now what I thought the first time that I saw this episode.

Xanatos is in his usual form, especially with his line "It's my first real stab at cliched villainy. So how am I doing?" Who else but Xanatos would say something like that? Not to mention "You just can't program good help these days." Perhaps most astonishing of all, of course (at least when you compare Xanatos to other animated BBEGs) is his remark that he doesn't personally have any grudge against Goliath and no genuine desire to kill him - how often does the villain say *that* to the hero in an animated series? But it does fit in with Xanatos's style: he'll destroy if he has to, but he'd rather use objects and people than to destroy them (not too surprising, given the fact that how much can you do with, say, a dead gargoyle?).

Xanatos shows his usual policy of "never waste anything" when he reconverted the Cauldron of Life into his fourth Coyote robot. (It reminds me a bit of a scene in the graphic novel "Camelot 3000" where Sir Mordred merges the Holy Grail with his suit of armor, causing his armor to gain the Grail's healing properties so that all of his wounds in battle heal before any of them can cost him his life. I asked Greg once about that in a chat session, but he indicated that the similarity is merely a coincidence.)

They certainly had fun with two Coyotes in the script (such as "We're looking for Coyote." "Here." "The other Coyote." "Also here."). My favorite is Coyote the Trickster's threat to sue Xanatos for trademark infringement. Xanatos replies, correctly, that he's always been a trickster at heart. (It just goes to show that you don't have to be a member of the Oberati to qualify as one - Odysseus has also proven that, of course, as has Tyl Eulenspiegel - I hope that I got the spelling right on that one.) Xanatos also uses perhaps the worst pun in the series when, after commenting on how the iron from the Cauldron of Life allows the Coyote robot to capture the Coyote Trickster, he adds, "Ironic, isn't it?" (This is probably the first straight-out mention of the problems that iron gives Oberon's Children, due for larger detail in the very next episode.)

Coyote the Trickster's methods generally seem to be subtle ones, I noticed - more as in manipulating the random variables of a situation so that things just happen to work out the way that he wants them - such as one of Xanatos's giant staples just happening to hit the timer for his acid trough and put it out of commission.

Arizona has a bit of personal interest for me these days since my mother now lives there (she moved there with my stepfather a couple of years ago). I doubt that she's met any Coyotes there, however. (They do have a local pigeon problem, though; thank goodness that Goliath, Angela, and Bronx didn't run into pigeons on this adventure!)

There were, appropriately enough, a number of coyote howls in the background of this episode.

The Avalon World Tour's almost done. All that's left is the debut of Oberon and Titania and Puck's little "Future Tense" illusion, and then we'll be back to New York.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 6, 2004 06:57:47 PM
IP: 63.186.1.161

Toon Disney has moved Gargoyles up an hour to make room for "The Proud Family".
Gantros
Monday, September 6, 2004 06:24:53 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

yeah it is, and for some reason I could not get a confirmation e-mail from the BBC website you sent me, so I was unable to in turn, reply to your post.
Gantros
Monday, September 6, 2004 06:23:36 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Ah well, I suppose what I had dreaded to think has been confirmed? There will not be a European version of the DVD? Oh well. :'(

Maybe Amazon's info could be wrong. Or maybe if we all email Disney they'll reconsider. Hmm doubt it but worth a try. Or maybe if the sales from this first release are really good then they could release it on all formats. Or maybe if aliens abducted the Disney execs and brainwashed them into releasing the DVD region free, then I could sleep happy. (I have this horrible feeling that the latter has a higher chance of occurring than the other three options.)
*Rant over.*

Gantros, is that thread still around? Lol.

Faieq
Monday, September 6, 2004 05:19:10 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

Hello Again, here's the link to my VH1 "I Love the 90's" Post on Gargoyles. Keep it on the first page by replying with your support of getting it on "Strikes Back"!. UK fans can use the zipcode 97212 during registration. Here's the link:

http://www.vh1.com/interact/boards/main.jhtml/i_love_the_90s/ViewThread?tID=615096&mID=3215955&offset=0&index=0

-Gantros
Gantros
Monday, September 6, 2004 03:30:21 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Man I wish I didn't have class today :(

At least my Religion professor cancelled class so she could take her son to a theme park today, LoL.

Kristen
VA
Monday, September 6, 2004 12:41:02 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129

Happy Labor Day! Be sure to enjoy this holiday honoring the American worker before it, too, gets outsourced to India.

92 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Monday, September 6, 2004 11:07:54 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Ninth!

Todd> Belated condolences to you.

Happy Labourday to you all! Our one day off per year for all the hard, gruelling, toiling labour we put in every day! :)

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
GO ESKS GO!!!, Canada
Monday, September 6, 2004 10:49:10 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

Shara> That is very true. Let me know about *ANY* information you get. It's a really really cool idea. :D And Trust me..this convention needs all the publicity it can get! :) (Thankyou again!)
Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Monday, September 6, 2004 09:19:01 AM
IP: 68.54.148.183

My ramble now on "Bushido", which I watched yesterday afternoon, now that the room's cleared.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a strong suspicion that a leading inspiration for the Ishimura gargoyles on the part of Greg Weisman and his co-workers was the legends about the tengu. The tengu were a race of winged people in Japanese legend who sometimes taught bushido to humans; that certainly sounds familiar to anybody who's seen this episode. (Although other elements about the tengu don't quite conform to the Ishimura clan; for example, they were also described as tricksters with magical abilities - sounds almost as if the Japanese gargoyles were confused with local members of the Third Race!)

One of the most important elements of this episode, to me, is that we see a village where the humans and gargoyles live together harmoniously. I think that such a thing was crucial at some point, to show that peace between humans and gargoyles on a "community-level" scale was possible. It certainly offsets all those cases of anti-gargoyle mobs in medieval Scotland and modern-day New York. (Taro does prove the exception to the rule, but he's motivated by greed rather than by fear and prejudice.)

One interesting comment that Greg Weisman made once about this episode is that it was designed as a parallel to the beginning of "Awakening", with Yama and Taro's scheme being a parallel to Demona and the Captain's scheme. The big difference, he added, was that Taro goes for economic exploitation of the gargoyles rather than Dark Age-style slaughter of Hakon's variety. (Another difference is that Yama's braver and more responsible than Demona; when he discovers what's really going on, instead of running away and hiding as Demona did, he actually faces Taro and defeats him in single combat.)

Taro was an amusing antagonist, with such fun lines as "Hey, nobody ever got rich off bushido" and, when Yama insists on fighting him alone because of bushido's code of honor "Bushido is not kind to you." (Not to mention his style of shooting Elisa with a tranquilizer dart: "You must be so tired after your battle. How about a nice nap?") All the same, as somebody pointed out here once, he didn't seem to have entirely thought through his amusement park plan; I really find myself wondering what he was thinking when he chose to hold his press conference at dawn. Wouldn't evening be a more appropriate time to introduce gargoyles to the world; seeing them burst out of their stone shells would be far more dramatic and impressive than seeing them turn to stone (and there's also the problem that if you mistime the visit, all that the reporters would see would be statues). One could almost feel tempted to call him a "poor man's Xanatos" at that point (plus I certainly don't think that Xanatos would have ever undergone the humiliation of dangling from a giant animatronic gargoyle in front of the press, or shouting at it when it proceeds to go into its greeting routine "Not now!")

I wonder whether the castle in the theme park was intended as a replica of Castle Wyvern, or just a generic castle. It certainly did look a lot like Castle Wyvern, but I'm not certain.

For me, the funniest moment in the episode comes when Elisa tells Goliath and the others about all the reporters "ready to make you TV stars" and Goliath cries in horror "No!" Nice little bit of metareferencing there (and Keith David's delivery of Goliath's alarm made it all the more entertaining).

One little nit that continues to bother me whenever I see this one: Taro at one point, while making it clear that he's not going to let the gargoyles leave, pulls downward on the head of a miniature gargoyle as if about to trigger a trap - and nothing happens.

And I suspect that those folks out there who were tired of Elisa always wearing a red jacket, black shirt, and blue jeans must have been pleased to see her in the kimono. :)

Other fun bits:

The Ishimura gargoyles' custom of facing inwards in their stone sleep, to show their trust towards the humans.

Kai's response to Bronx's delighted greeting of him at the beginning.

Kai and Yama's confrontation of the bewildered thieves, with such lines as "I'm afraid that that doesn't belong to you" and "Yes, I know, we're terrifying."

After Elisa and Hiroshi deliver their comically exaggerated claims about the gargoyles at the theme park, one of the reporters comments that it sounds as if they've been watching too many cartoons. (Another metareference?)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 6, 2004 07:33:02 AM
IP: 63.186.1.213

Hi folks

I'm still here lurking, just been busy with RL for a while - work, uni starting again & the chaos otherwise know as puppies!

Glad the gathering went well.
Pity bout the dvd though. A european release would be nice.

All the best

(And I guess I'm sixth.)

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, September 6, 2004 06:36:29 AM
IP: 81.131.221.173

Matt Fews - Just so you are aware, the bid winners for the next years con need to attend THIS years con. So if you want to bid for 2006, your staff has to make it to 2005 or the deal is off.

... and if you are really broke... Running a convention is the last thing you want to do. It sucks up a lot of money up front that the staff has to cover until registrations come in.

Your friendly neighborhood Gathering President

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [crzydemona@gmail.com]
Monday, September 6, 2004 01:19:46 AM
IP: 216.249.97.16

Fourths.
Lynati
Monday, September 6, 2004 01:05:56 AM
IP: 4.139.18.231

Hmm, I'll take the 2nd triangular number, just to confuse people.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, September 6, 2004 12:42:49 AM
IP: 67.14.195.23

SECOND!!!

best i've done in a while...

matt
Monday, September 6, 2004 12:12:45 AM
IP: 68.90.74.136

FIRST!!!
Greg Bishansky
Monday, September 6, 2004 12:02:37 AM
IP: 162.84.164.187