Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

*reads Demonic Lover's comments...*

*jaw drops*

protectorate> first off, you could say that there will always be threats, like the Space Spawn to protect things from.
but really, the whole protect thing branches off from the gargoyles need to protect a rookery. as i've said before, this part of their behavior again stems from their unique reproductive system.
long term eggs require a long term rookery which requires protection from threats both natural and man-made.
without humans, gargoyles would continue to protect things, if nothing else, they would revert to protecting their rookeries.

and for the record, its not like humans are responsible for all the threats in the world. a child might not be a target for other humans, but a parent protects the child anyway from other threats. disease, hunger, natural disaster, etc. certianly the Mayan Clan would continue to protect the rainforest even if there were no humans around chopping down trees. their job might be easier without us, but their is still things they could do to protect the forest.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Kids are great. You can teach them to hate what you hate and, with the Internet and all, they practically raise themselves." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 11:27:04 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

SC > LOL ^_^

I agree with Hardwing on the whole "what would the gargoyles protect if Demona succeeded" topic. But it seems that some clans would have to change their protectorate just a little. Such as, what's the point in protecting the rainforest, if there's no one around to destroy it?

But it'd also be interesting to see how each clan would get in touch with each other. It's not like they can just borrow a plane and go. Unless they want to try crossing an ocean in a raft... communication would be a big problem. Especially if one clan finds itself in need of assistance.

*shrugs* Again, just my two cents.
BrooksBabe
"You're really stupid if you get hit by a car AFTER the Apocalypse." --Crow
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 11:08:27 pm EST from 64.228.49.146

DL-- Seriously... how old are you?
Kythera of Anevern
"Being normal is not necessarilly a virtue; it rather donotes a lack of courage" - Aunt Franny, 'Practical Magic'
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 10:27:48 pm EST from 24.126.8.44

Obed, Crimson rouge, i hope you have checked your inbox lately, i left you both a present that says thankyou!
Have you ever wached soap operas like The Young and The Restless, Guiding Light, As the World Turns, or General Hospital? if you do, try putting garg characters in the plots! it is soooooo much fun! it is even more fun if you put them in the plots of The Nanny and Will & Grace! to all Demona fans, keep your head out of the dumps and get your legs in the air!
Demonic lover
I feel pretty, soooo pretty, i feel pretty and witty and... and... what's that last word?
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 9:28:24 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

DL: 1. I'm sure there are con-journals that detail what goes on. To get a general idea of what happens at a Gathering, check out the extra on the Season 1 DVD.
2. Brooklyn would, over the course of spin-off series called Time-dancer, would meet up with Katana. Check the archives.
3. When will reason completely overcome hate? Real answer: no clue. Someone else wanna try? "Benedictia Arnold?" I get what you mean, but, Huh?
4. Didn't we just go over this?
Asatira
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 9:10:05 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Demonic Lover: Remember, you eat pudding with a spoon. :)
The Sadistic Cow
Constant vigilance!
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:57:33 pm EST from 69.157.19.73

DL: Umm, Well, first off, that's WAY out of Goliath's character, secondly, Demona can only be killed by Macbeth O_0.

Greg B: So the kid would be a human? I thought Greg Weisman hadn't announced the species. I kind of like the idea of a human child and gargoyle children playing together and seeing each other as siblings. I wonder if he/she is the ancestor of Nick natsilane maza.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:38:15 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Okay, you win, i lose. Ding Ding Ding, you've won $ 20,000,000( even more than ken jennings) on Jepardy, smart guy! Let me ask you one... no four things. 1. What do you ( as in others ) do at these Gatherings and why do they have to be sooooooooo far away?!?!?!?!? Just make sure the next one is not in like... austria or Iraq. Somewhere close to my area like New Carlisle, Indiana. 2. when will Brooklyn ever hit the jackpot ? what i mean by that is when will he ever get a mate? 3. when will the Qmen ever stop attacking my favorite clan? C'mon, it was Demona that started it, not Goliath! why can't they just have a comphramize like how the patriots did after the revolutionary war????? Demona was "Ms. Benedictia Arnold". infact, the captain of the from castle wyvern was Benedict Arnold. 4. when will Demona just face the fact that her plans are not going the way she plannned and that the world doesn't revolve around her?
Demonic lover
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:34:16 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

A hybrid can happen, but not through normal sexual means. It would require genetic manipulation as in the case of Deliah, or the mutates. Elisa and Goliath would have to find a genescist with comparable knowledge to Sevarius, who would be willing to try. They would also have to face the fact in all likelyhood, the child would be in vitro, and not carried inside Elisa. So they would need a genescist, and the emotional maturity to accept the child as a test tube baby for them to ever reproduce together.
#
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:31:29 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

DL> Um... think about what you just said for a few minutes. Think long and hard.

How old are you anyway?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:09:20 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

PurpleGoldfish, you are both right and wrong. What if instead of Goliath having it with Elisa... if he had it with demona again by using her as an item, does it with her, wait until the egg comes out, and finally slaughters Demona like a fresh calf ? Then he would go to Elisa with egg and say," Honey, look what i found on the door step!"
Demonic lover
Women, can't live with them, can't live without them!
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:05:57 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

DL> You can't breed a cat with a dog.

And in "Gargoyles", you can't breed a human and a gargoyle. Greg Weisman has said so. And I'm glad he did. Most other creators would just go the other way. I mean, take Star Trek for example, where cats and dogs can breed (well, know, not really, but you get the idea).

So, no hybrids.

I believe Greg plans for Goliath and Elisa to adopt a human child.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:03:20 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

What do you know DL, we have something in common. Besides our fandom for Gargoyles, we both wonder what exactly goes on at the Gatherings. Im planning to go to my first gathering this year since I only live about an hour away from the location. I check out www.fanfiction.com everyday (So you don't have to constantly ask if anyone checks)

#> DING, Correct

Redneck Dictionary for European: "Hey, watch it, "European" on my boot!"
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 7:51:48 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

Demonic Lover: Sorry, Goliath and Elisa could never have a child in the traditional natural way. Elisa came out of her mother's womb...Goliath hatched out of an egg...Can't work.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 7:49:00 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Hey i'm back, what did i miss? There is one big question i wanted to ask, What do you do at these Gatherings? is it a hoopla for garg fans? What do we do? i need details. Did any of you go on to www.fanfiction.net? You can find tons of garg fanfiction! You can even post your stories on there which is even cooler! Today was soooooo boring for me, I hate doing US history reports! I'd rather learn about Scottish history! From my post, Greg, it can happen with Elisa and Goliath, the genetics are not that complicated. Human + Gargoyle= Hybrid . (Gargoyle and human dna) Anything is possible. what if they made an adult series of gargoyles for adults?
Demonic lover
Love becomes the rose- Bette Midler and janis Joplin's, The Rose
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 7:43:35 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Hi,

I'm just a bystander who is interested in this topic...

I can't agree with the argument that gargoyles would have nothing left to protect once the humans were gone. Gargoyles lived long without a human threat... at last Greg has stated so.

Once the human were gone they will have to protect their clans, perhaps more than ever... at last some of them. For example the Manhattan clan would need to go hunting once the human food has rotted, no easy task in New York, they'll have to surround. And then there is the fact that most of the clans will simply die out without the help of the other clans... clans which are sometimes thousands of miles away.

Alone the efford to manage the survival of their race should stop them from getting bored.

Once this is done maybe they'll need to refocus, back from things like the rain forest back to their clan, this isn't a great task, given the fact that they did so thousand years before and even a world without humans has still dangers a clan need to face.
Hardwing - [hardwing@web.de]
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 7:08:45 pm EST from 85.182.2.52

StarCreator> Greg's answer:

Good question. Keep in mind that magic isn't an exact science. The Weird Sisters told Macbeth and Demona that "When one lives both live." Demona used the magic Praying Gargoyle statue to insure she would survive the fullfillment spell. So would Macbeth have survived? Probably. She knows about the mortality link. She would not want his death at her hands if that resulted in her own. Towards Macbeth, her impulse should not be murderous by necessity. And mindset has a real effect on magic results. However, Demona isn't the most stable and rational of characters. She certainly has murderous feelings toward Macbeth. And if their linking spell "perceived" the death of all humanity as a successful attempt to kill Macbeth, then it might very well have killed her as well. Did she consider this? Maybe.

Maybe it was a risk she was willing, even eager to take. Maybe somewhere underneath it all, she's a bit suicidal. Could she die with the idea of leaving behind a human-free "paradise" where her daughter could live in safety? Remember, Moses led the Israelites to the Promised Land, but he was not allowed to enter it himself. Maybe that's how Demona felt about it.

Then again, maybe not. Very provocative question.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 6:50:24 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Since we're talking about what would happen if Demona had succeeded in wiping out humanity... something that always bugged me is if -she- would survive it herself. Would the act of wiping out humanity by her own hand (and thus, wiping out Macbeth) also mean her death?
StarCreator
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 6:49:07 pm EST from 69.244.75.90

Yes, I know that it's "gargoyles protect" rather than "gargoyles protect humans", but if all the humans were gone, what would they protect whatever they were protecting from? Humans are the only beings who do much threatening gargoyle protectorates (their homes, their rookeries, the rain forest in the case of the Mayan gargoyles).
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 6:11:47 pm EST from 4.244.18.39

i suppose its a good thing Demona hasn't found New Olympus... i'm sure she'd love it there and with the Olympians simmering hatred of humanity and their advanced technology i'd worry Demona would find them wonderful allies... or at least some of them...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Kids are great. You can teach them to hate what you hate and, with the Internet and all, they practically raise themselves." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 3:13:26 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Perhaps Demona would be ok with dying if she succeeded in destroying humanity. With humans out the way, Demona would have no channel or release for the hate and guilt inside her. Maybe her ONE goal is to destroy humanity.

There is a chance that once humanity was out of the way, Demona would feel some sort of closure believing she has avenged her clans death and at last "be at peace". However, I am not so sure that after all the years in which Demona has felt such hatred she would suddenly turn over a new leaf.
Nikki
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:45:04 pm EST from 62.252.32.16

Didn't read Matt's post.

As for how gargoyles would feel towards Demona if she succeeded. Well, it wouldn't be monolithic. Some would think she needs to be punished. Some would probably be thankful for her actions. Hell, some might come to revere her as some "mythic, immortal gargoyle savior".

Demona can't be the only gargoyle that hates humans. Hell, Goliath wasn't too big on humans in "Awakening" till he became friends with Elisa.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:31:50 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I don't know about the Children of Oberon, but I'm betting Demona's spell would have destroyed the New Olympians as well, and if not, well, they're not exactly humanity's biggest fans at this point in time. I honestly don't think they'd care too much.

As for what gargoyles would protect. The credo has always been "Gargoyles protect". Not "gargoyles protect humans". A lot can and do protect humans, but that falls under the larger tent I guess. They'd continue to be territorial and protect their land. The Wyvern Clan protected Wyvern Hill before Prince Malcolm and his people came along. The Mayan Clan protects the Rain Forest, not the humans. Hell, the London Clan didn't do much protecting of humans until Griff returned.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:28:35 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

i wonder... if she kills all the humans and then she finds herself still as alone and subconciously guilty as ever how would she react. in a happy world she'd realize her issues and redeem herself, but in a realistic world it wouldn't surprise me if she somehow turned around and blamed Goliath or the Hunters for forcing her hand.

Todd> keep in mind that though Gargoyles protect, they don't neccesarily protect humans. the Mayan Clan protects the rainforest, their job would be easier without humans. the Xanadu Clan protects the Gargoyle Beasts. the Loch Ness Clan protecs the monsters living there. the New Olympus Clan certainly doesn't protect humans at all. the Pukhan Clan protects their concept of justice. all the Clans protect their home and their rookeries. the Clans i could easily see being upset by the loss of humans would be the Ishimura, London, Manhattan and Labyrinth Clan.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 9:56:13 am EST from 24.182.146.1

But there are the other races, and who says that the other races would be happy with the wiping out of humans. Granted, a lot of Fey's wouldn't care either way, and the New Olympains probably would agree with the ends if not the methods but Nokkar's race may or not be mad about it. So Demona could always claim one of these other races as her scapegoat for her guilt.
#
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 8:54:54 am EST from 66.71.80.73

I can't help but suspect that Demona would indeed be left emotionally stranded if she did succeed in wiping out humanity; her life has revolved around hating humans for so long that, once they were all gone, she'd be left with a big emptiness (though I seriously doubt that she realizes it - or if she ever does realize it, she immediately goes into denial about it). She'd have to scramble to look for another purpose after that. (From that angle, she'd probably have very good reason to not be the least bit concerned that wiping out the human race, because of her link to Macbeth, would mean her own death; it would save her the trouble of figuring out what to do afterwards.)

I wonder what the big consequences would be for the gargoyles in general if the humans were wiped out. On the one hand, they're no longer in danger of being hunted down or smashed in their stone sleep. On the other hand, what do they protect now that all the humans are gone and they have no natural enemies aside from them? Goliath said in "Re-Awakening" that for gargoyles to lose the purpose of protecting would be to become corrupt; would the species head down some dark path once its original purpose had gone? Of course, we'll never know.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 7:57:58 am EST from 4.244.211.211

Obed > You missed my point. I know full well about TGFW. I have for years.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 3:28:29 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Demona would suffer the fate of all tyrants if she killed off all humans, she would lose her purpose. Any tyrant or dictator can exist because they have an enemy they can rally their supporters behind. A goal, a purpose, a reason for them being.

Hudson states over and over again, that a gargoyles reason for being is protection. Demona doesn't have this purpose, or at least a twisted version of this purpose. She protects gargoyles from humans, but in turn she does it proactively, a mentality of getting them before they get you form of protection. But if she removes the enemy she has created she loses that purpose, and without a justifable purpose whether human or gargoyle, no matter how little or pointless it seems in the grande scheme, a creature cannot go on living and must relent to the only thing they have left, death.

But the problem comes in that Demona will always have humanity as enemy even if she eliminates all of them. She would still have Macbeth. She could then have her justification that all humanity isn't dead as long as he exists but in turn she does kill him, she accomplishes sucide which would be the logical course after she lost all purpose, so either way, whether she kills all humanity, or kills all humanity with the exception of Macbeth, I would predict suicide.

Suicide may not fit in with what some believe of Demona. This is true, in a sense that she has had her anger, and grudge to keep her going all these centuries. She had a reason, to kill all humans, you take away that reason, why would she continue to choose to live? A life without purpose is a worthless life.
#
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 1:10:46 am EST from 66.71.80.73

Oh the horrible, horrible typos!
In displacement, the line is supposed to read, "obviously can't start beating herself" not, "obviously can't start being herself".

It's the lack of sleep, I swear!
BrooksBabe
"You're really stupid if you get hit by a car AFTER the Apocalypse." --Crow
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:52:39 am EST from 64.228.109.93

A discussion about Demona, and one that doesn't involve her bra size! ;)

I don't think Demona has ever truly thought about what she would do if she ever succeeded in destroying humanity. Because, in a way, why would she really care? The thing that she hates the most is gone from the planet, and her kind can finally live without fear of being smashed during the day.

But it kinda got me thinking. A big reason why she never would have thought of what would happen after humans are gone, is because she's psychologically damaged (and still suffering emotionally) from the massacre.

She doesn't think it's at all her fault for the massacre, but deep down, subconsciously, she knows that she is. And because the massacre was so tramatic for her, she's also dealing with a lot of the usual defence mechanisms.
*goes into psychologist mode*
#1 - Denial
This one is just obvious. She won't accept the fact that she helped bring the massacre on. If she had told the others to leave, it never would have happened, and so on.
#2 - Rationalization
She repeatedly blames humanity for everything. And she'll come up with many, many reasons.
#3 - Displacement
The more acceptable target being humanity, and quite often, Goliath and Co. She obviously can't start being herself over something she thinks isn't her fault.
#4 - Regression
She did this in a literal sense. But I think it still counts. She may have not retreated to a younger age mentally to avoid a situation... she went back and spoke to her younger self directly.
#5 - Projection
Pushing all of her undesireable feelings onto other people. (I had this one thought through, but I can't seem to remember it right now...)

Anyways, all that is happening unconsciously for her. But it seems to be working for her nonetheless. It would also explain to some degree as to why Demona does not reform in Angela's lifetime. Her defences are running to high for her to realize what she's doing. Such an experience, seeing all her loved ones dead, and then being constantly "betrayed" is going to set her off. In turn, making her redemption longer to come around.
*ends therapy mode*

Anywho, that's just my two cents. If it makes any sense, I'll be quite surprised.
BrooksBabe
"You're really stupid if you get hit by a car AFTER the Apocalypse." --Crow
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:44:18 am EST from 64.228.109.93

I think the joke that you are looking for is, "What is the difference between pornography and and art?" Which the answer is, "A goverment grant."
#
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:30:39 am EST from 66.71.80.73

I find it both strange and disturbing. It's almost as if we are plotting ideas againsst our own race. WHAT HAVE WE BECOME, AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Oh well. :)

Name The Movie: the answer of Scary Movie 3

JOKE: WHAT DO YOU GET WITH PORN AND ART(I don't know if this is the proper way to say the joke)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2006 12:29:21 am EST from 69.234.8.165

It's always fun to wonder about Demona. What would she do if she killed all the humans? For starters, I doubt she's thought that far ahead. She's spent so much time plotting against humanity, I doubt she's even considered what would happen if she actually won. Maybe she does think that she'll be praised as the savior of gargoylia. I'm sure there are a few gargoyles in the world who aren't fond of humans, and they might take her in. On the other hand, we also have to remember that she has an extra ally: time. After humanity's destruction, most of the gargoyles would shun her, but she is immortal. In a few hundred years, there wouldn't be any gargoyles left who even remembered humans, and they'd probably eventually forget what she'd done, at which point she might be able to reenter society.

Just to be fair, I should say that I don't think any of the things I've said are original to me. I'm pretty sure someone else suggested them q while ago- probably Grand Master Jensen.

Incidentally, does anyone find it strange that we're discussing what if, hypothetically, our entire species were to be destroyed?
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Anyone can read the news to you. I promise to feel the news at you." -Stephen Colbert
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 11:34:00 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

I think we can all agree that Demona is her own worst enemy.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 11:01:10 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

matt: about demona, I've always wondered that myself. I mean, does she really think any of the gargoyles left will be her friend now? Perhaps all those years have made her very delsuional. Or maybe it's one of those things...she's been trying to destroy humanity for so long, that hatred has just piled on, and she just wants it done, even if it means continuing to be alone. Maybe she thinks she'd be fine with being an outcast or an exile if the humans were just gone. Perhaps if she ever were to succeed she'd just go against whatever gargoyles would be left at the time.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 10:55:15 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Kris> "I can't see why Angela's existence would lead Goliath to believe that there's any more hope for Demona than he already does (or doesn't)."
- i think after what Goliath witnessed between Demona and Angela in "The Reckoning" he may start to see that there is hope for Demona. maybe he starts to worry less that Demona will negatively influence Angela and rather hope that Angela can positively influence Demona.
i can definitly see that Angela and her influence on Demona could give Goliath hope that Demona isn't totally lost.
anyone who argues that Angela could make Goliath have feelings for Demona again is not thinking clearly though. even in the best case scenario (like Demona totally reforms and rejoins the Clan) i can't see Goliath and her getting back together. some hurts are just too deep. both of them have changed so much.

Demona & the vial> i agree with Greg B (and incidently Greg W). afterall she did say mockingly as she tossed the vial "Catch!". she realized she was defeated and she tossed the vial as a diversion for her escape.
what i wonder is, lets say she had released the virus before Goliath had destroyed the Praying Gargoyle, what would Goliath and Clan have done to Demona? all the humans are basically doomed, so, what now? if Demona had lived through it (killing Macbeth and all) what would she have done? what would be her purpose in life now? most the gargs in the world at that point would probably not be too happy with her, so she'd be hard pressed to find a Clan. i wonder if in all the years she was plotting this scheme if she ever wondered what she'd do if it succeeded. did she imagine she'd be Queen of the Gargoyles?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 10:38:39 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Well, while I concede the point with Angela, I don't for Goliath. He loves Angela very, very much. She is his daughter. And so is Ophelia. And Gabriel is his son. He loves all of them.

HoE> I don't disagree, but I do think Demona's actions at the end of "The Reckoning" had just as much to do with her new hatred of Thailog as they did with her love for Angela.

Actually, she didn't go berserk until Delilah was brought out.

<<And let's not forget, she was seconds away from destroying all sentient life on Earth at the end of Hunter's Moon, until Goliath reminded her of Angela, "our daughter." Of course, she still put everyone in jeopardy when she tossed that vial into the air... but this is Demona we're talking about here. At least she gave Goliath a chance to save the vial. She could've shattered it right away. >>

Hello, Greg! In "Hunter's Moon: Part 3", at the very end, how come you had Demona throw up the vile into the air? I mean, right after Goliath said, "you can destroy all of us, you and me, the whole clan, and our daughter." When he involved Angela, you would think that Demona would do anything for her because she loved her so much. In "The Reckoning," Demona used Angela, but realized what she had done wrong, so she saved her from being killed. Now, Demona doesn't care? I don't understand. Is it maybe because Goliath destroyed the Praying Gargoyle that her spell wouldn't work anyway? So, out of frustration, she just threw the vile up in the air, because she knew that if Goliath didn't catch it nothing would happen? Thanks for your time, Greg! I hope I didn't confuse you with what I'm trying to ask. :)

Greg responds...

I think that on one level, Demona was fairly confident that Goliath (or one of the gargs) would catch it. But I also think on some level, Demona's action was nihilistic. If the vile broke, so be it.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 10:23:11 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Todd: If anything, Demona's war against humanity would only lend credence to most of the Quarrymen's propaganda. The ironic thing is, she claims that humans will never accept gargoyles, and she herself is only helping this idea along. Amazing what the seemingly innocuous action of scarring a kid in the tenth century can lead to.

Kris: Don't forget what Goliath said at the end of "The Reckoning." True, the fact that Angela is the fruit of Demona's loins doesn't automatically make her a saint, but she did manage to put aside her vengeance for five seconds so that Goliath could save Angela. That act alone proved that Demona was still capable of feeling love (the pure kind of love, not the Lord-only-knows what kind she had going with Thailog), and ultimately I think that is what would give Goliath hope.

It's funny. I always interpreted Keith David's reading of those lines at the end of "The Reckoning" as not only trying to comfort Angela, but also admitting that he might have been wrong. In "Sanctuary," he accuses Demona of no longer knowing the meaning of the word "love," but it would seem that deep down, she still might.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"If every girl I ever dumped put out a hit on me, I'd have to go to Rome and steal the Pope-mobile again!"
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 9:42:40 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

The Crimson Rogue said:
"I would say that to Goliath, Angela is the only good thing to come from Demona. And thus the proof that there is always hope for Demona."

That's possible, but I tend to think that Goliath wouldn't give Demona that kind of credit just for having given birth to Angela. Most anyone can have sex and get pregnant/get another pregnant, so Demona really doesn't deserve any positive points on her life's scorecard for simply having an egg. Angela _is_ a good thing to come out of Goliath's entrusting of the eggs to Katherine, of being raised responsibly, and a happy coincidence for him that they ended up in Avalon and lived so that he could see them. I can't see why Angela's existence would lead Goliath to believe that there's any more hope for Demona than he already does (or doesn't). Demona didn't do anything to result in Angela being a good person.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 9:10:49 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

i think the human concept of Gargoyles is going to be vastly different from Clan to Clan. it sounds like Ishimura, London and Camelot are going to be on very good terms with the local humans. the Mayan Clan, on the other hand, will probably not be on such good terms with the humans. some Clans, like New Olympus and Loch Ness will probably shy away from humans. i don't think we know enough to say what the Pukhan and Xanadu Clans will be like.
as for the Manhattan and Labyrinth Clans, i imagine that humans will tolerate them, as Todd suggests, but probably not totally accept them as a beneficial addition to the community.
the liberation of Earth and founding of the Liberty Clan (followed shortly by the Paris and New Wyvern Clans) could change this of course.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 8:43:06 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

I wonder whether changing human attitudes towards gargoyles might impact Demona a little. Probably not that much, since Greg made it clear that in 2198, humans more tolerate gargoyles than accept them. (Indeed, for all that we know, the move to tolerate gargoyles might well have come about less out of any genuine understanding that gargoyles had a right to exist, and more out of a tone of "All of this gargoyle-hunting is doing more damage to our cities than the gargoyles could ever do on their own; let's just make peace with them in the hopes that it means a lot fewer vigilantes running around smashing every statue in sight and creating senseless chaos - not to mention all the lawsuits over property damage from the people who own the statues that got smashed." And besides, since a lot of Demona's hatred towards humanity is based as much on her personal demons as on how she's been treated by them, I think that it would take more than a collective statement of "I'm sorry" from the human race to change things for her. (If anything, she'd probably view the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act as just another "false peace" from the humans, the same as Macbeth's peace with the gargoyles - the way that it appeared from her perspective.)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 7:27:39 pm EST from 4.245.23.47

The thing about Demona is that we know she does not get redeemed during GOliath and Angela's lifetime. She is still plotting against humanity and an enemy of the clan when the Space-Spawn invade. Her joining the Resistance is only because it's in her best interests. Though things probably change.

But yeah, as much as Angela will try, she won't be the one to redeem Demona.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 7:00:36 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

"when in doubt, quote Greg Weisman"

indeed.

HoEyes> yeah, i think you were being a little defensize, but its cool i was only agreeing with you and expanding on your point, not putting words in your mouth.
but as for Demona's depression, i found a question addressing just that and ironically, i had asked it:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
matt writes...
Hi Greg.

You've mentioned before that in 994 AD no one even thought that the Wyven Clan was the last of its kind and that it was probably assumed that there were other Clans in Scotland and other locales. So my question is, why did Goliath not take the eggs and try to find one of these Clans? I know he was emotionally torn apart by losing his Clan, first by the Massacre and then by the Magus' Sleep Spell, but there was still some Clan left... the Eggs . If he believed there were other clans around why did he choose to put his children in the care of someone he just began to trust. Later in the series he speaks about how trust has to be earned, and yet he puts huge trust in several people who have insulted, betrayed, and cursed his Clan in just the last several days. I don't mean to come across like i'm trying to trick you or corner you with some inaccuracy, i'm just genuinely curious about what you think of Goliath's motivations and actions in this scene. And, of course, the same question could be asked of Demona . She actually did find another Clan to join, and could've taken the eggs with her, but she didn't. I'd love to hear what you think about all this.

Greg responds...
Demona 's easier to explain, I think. She didn't find another clan to join... years later, she gathered a handful of scattered, clanless gargoyles into a makeshift clan. At the time, however, I think she was too racked with guilt. She couldn't face the inevitable questions. Couldn't "face" the eggs themselves. She sent herself into exile -- a traditional gargoyle punishment in those days.

And maybe the same basic thing was going on with Goliath. He couldn't "face" anything. Not the eggs or his responsibility to them. This act -- or lack of action -- on his part ironically resulted in the eggs being saved on Avalon. But at the time, one has to regard it as an act of tremendous irresponsibility. I forgive Goliath because I believe he was suicidally depressed. I'm sure -- as "Shadows of the Past" attempted to illustrate -- he was suffering from a massive case of survivor's guilt and the feeling that as Leader of the clan, he had failed miserably... at the cost of each and every life... including Hudson, Bronx and the Trio. One might argue that simply asking the Princess to watch over the eggs required Herculean effort on his part. All he wanted was oblivion, but he had just enough strength of mind left to obtain the Princess' vow -- to assign the responsibility that should have been his. I don't think he thought about how she would protect them. I don't think he thought, "Hey, I should tell her where the nearest clan is for a convenient drop-off." I think he just barely managed to get her to relieve that last burden, so that he could slip into what he had to believe was permanent slumber... again, an exile... from the living world. (Too much sleep being a definite symptom of depression .) Also since he believed he failed miserably with the clan, he may also have truly believed that he wasn't capable of handling the responsibility for the eggs -- that even the Princess was better qualified in light of his failure.

Response recorded on April 18, 2005
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 6:56:14 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

# -> I am amazed, for once we agree. You not only made a logical, concise, and connected stance on the whole situation, you did it with elegance! I agree with you one hundred percent except saying that Angela doesn't mean as much to Goliath as she does to Demona (I am paraphrasing)

I would say that to Goliath, Angela is the only good thing to come from Demona. And thus the proof that there is always hope for Demona. It would be hard to claim blindly, but I would say that there is a good chance Goliath will always have a belief that Demona can be saved. Whether she can or not is simply not my position. Plainly that he believes in her, and thus to Goliath, Angela will always mean very much.
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 6:54:26 pm EST from 12.201.31.162

Sorry if I offended anybody with my last post; I certainly didn't intend to (and I didn't have any specific person in mind when I wrote it). I was just feeling in a fairly wry mood over the general discussion, and had one of my bad creativity demons.

(And I frankly think that Disney would be well-advised not to take that route of resetting continuity from scratch, not only because it would upset and antagonize the fans, but also, the specific drawback of having the gargoyles being mutated humans is that the audience would be subconsciously expecting them to be looking for a cure, which they could never find, of course, because that would automatically end the series. That issue might come up with the Mutates a little, but since they're recurring allies rather than the leads, the situation isn't the same.)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 6:42:58 pm EST from 4.245.23.47

*Ding Ding* Chalk one up for the newbie team! ;)
hehe, when in doubt, quote Greg Weisman!

JJ: You make some very good points about Broadway. Altough, I think that the trio were probably friends prior to "Awakening".
But it does seem to me that Brook and Lex are closer to each other than either are to Broadway. In fact he seems a lot more friendly with Elisa in some episodes than with his brothers. ( I can't help but wonder if Broad's friendship with Elisa was one of the things Angela found attractive about him.)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 6:37:18 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

*pulls out a skewer, sticks a bratwurst on it, and starts roasting it on the CR's flames.*

Mmm, mmm. Now all I need is some saurkraut and a tankard of beer.

Matt: I'm sorry, I think we just had a misunderstanding. My point was that I don't think it was depression that kept Demona from stopping the humans from taking the eggs. I think it was simply shock over seeing the gargoyles in stone at night. Honestly, I don't think she ever got as far as Depression. She's still stuck between Denial and Anger. I guess I was just a little on-guard because earlier in the week, someone took what I said and blew it out of context for God-only-knows what reason.

*finishing roasting his brat and goes off to look for a beer*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"If every girl I ever dumped put out a hit on me, I'd have to go to Rome and steal the Pope-mobile again!"
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 5:40:08 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

Ever had a grouo of your best friends interested in doing something you had no interest in? It's kinda like that.

They don't need to be joined at the hip constantly to be the Trio.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 5:29:41 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

JJ> interesting points about Broadway. i think you may be right. he does seem to be on his own a bit more, now that i think about it. interesting too since you would assume Brook or Lex to be more the loners...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 5:25:53 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Everyone was convinced that someone wasn't grasping gargoyle culture, when everyone in the conversation had the basic idea.

All it takes is one person to misunderstand, and a whole Internet forum can succumb to groupthink. Remember years ago, when many people thought I wanted to convert the Gargoyles to Christianity? Same thing happened. Helped kill a fascinating conversation, too. Oddly enough, the problems involved Angela's upbringing as well.

For the record, I now think that, up until meeting Goliath, Angela's beliefs would be a Scots Christian/Gargoylian hybrid, where Scots Christian means the mix of Christianity and pagan ideas in 10th century Scotland. Afterwards, I don't know where her path leads. And I did revise my thoughts during the discussion.

Broadway and his rookery brothers>> Now, I will expand on my earlier thoughts. Note that Broadway is only with Brook and Lex when they go on outings, for instance, to go to the movies. Brook and Lex actually socialize and play games together (at firs at least), and seem to share common interests that Broadway does not: Brook, unlike Broadway wanted to play the helicopter video game that Lex was playing ("Her Brother's Keeper"), and Broadway once left to visit Elisa because Brook and Lex wanted to watch a movie together ("Deadly Force," I believe). In fact, it seems that Broadway was only near Brook and Lex during "Awakenings, Pt. I" by coincidence!

Greg W. lumps them together as a Trio even before the massacre, but at the current time, I cannot see why. Maybe "Dark Ages" would help eliminate my confusion?
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 5:14:19 pm EST from 64.192.77.98

lol, i was just about to say "Greg B, you are on your own here, i'm convinced of their point." but i guess you concede too.

this has definitly been an interesting topic for debate this week. two things in particular have impressed me. first, it was newbies debating against some old regulars and the newbies debated well, were knowledgeable and well-informed and actually out-debated the regulars! the second thing was how much everyone was researching. so many people were searching Ask Greg for information, it was pretty cool. i mean, at least half of all posts seemed to be refering to things Greg W said. what an incredible resource Ask Greg is.

anyway, good debate, but i'm convinced. still, i would like to see an alternate history where Ophelia goes off with Goliath instead. interesting to see what would've been different.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 4:46:26 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Then I concede the point about Angela... well done :)

And to answer the question about Goliath and Elisa. They cannot have biological children. The genetics are way too different. They'll probably adopt.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 4:35:41 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Hey, you are so damn right!
demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 4:27:42 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

What is basically being argued is the concept of "Nurture Vs Nature". What is the more prevalent influence on the way a person matures. Is it the nurture? In Angela's case, the ideas imparted on her by the humans who raised her. Or is it nature? The gargoyle instincts that exist inside of her. My personel belief has always been one of nurture, that instinct can be overiden, given the right enviroment stimuli but I also do not discredit the power of instincts. Primal instincts if they are powerful enough, such as maternal instincts or survival instincts, can overcome any sort of enviromental programming one has been exposed to. I believe Demona, even if she would not admit has her Gargoyle instincts subdued by the enviroment of humans. She has in turn gone native. That is why I believe Angela being her biological daughter would be important to her. As for Goliath, the idea of a biological daughter would not hold as much promise. I would more agree with the fact it's more that she is the "only" daughter at the moment with him, than she is his personel daughter. As for Angela, I would view it more as a trying to find a connection, then searching for her parents. Her Gargoyle instincts are more likely to come back being in a traditional clan.
#
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 4:07:10 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I always thought that Demona was now and forever heartless and uncaring. Now she finds out that she has a daughter, she is turned up-side-down. My favorite part of the reconing was when Demona destroyes thailog for trying to go after her daughter. I like that, afterall, angela wasinside the egg that Goliath made inside her anyway. I wonder what would happen if Goliath had it with Elisa?
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 4:03:16 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Jurgan: Thank you, I I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said.

Todd Jensen wrote: "After reading much of this argument, I'm almost tempted to wonder if maybe Disney should just reboot the continuity of "Gargoyles" from scratch so that, in the new version, the gargoyles will be humans who fell into Sevarius's clutches and were mutated by him into gargoyle-like creatures, meaning that they will be merely transformed humans with the mentality of humans and won't have all those customs that many of the fans can't seem to comprehend. :)"
*SIGH* I'm not sure if that statement was directed at me, but I have a feeling in part that it was since I was the most vocal at that point in the conversation. Let me make this clear. I NEVER ONCE said that I didn't like the gargoyle's culture, and that I think all gargoyles should abandon their ways and take on the human way of raising young. In fact, I said something along the lines that the gargoyle's unique culture makes me appreciate teh fandom even more. I am simply pointing out SPECIAL cases that would deviate from the NORM due to unique circumstances.
Sorry for going off on a tangent there with that little rant, it just annoys me when people twist my words around.

Very well said, Obed. I agree with you 100%. In fact, I was going to write something similar, but you beat me to it :)

Adding something else greg said in his ramble on "monsters":

"Though G's not aware of it, Sevarius reveals to Angela that she is his biological daughter. Having grown up around her adoptive *HUMAN* parents, that notion of biological imperative must have seeped in. She already KNEW that Goliath was one of her ROOKERY parents. But this revelation ignites her curiousity and need."

This is basically what I have been trying to say all along. Greg himself states that Angela already KNEW that Goliath was one of her rookery fathers. And she starts hassling him about the father thing AFTER she learns of the biological connection. This is canon, We can't deny it. So if she had already thought of Goliath as her father in the gargoyle sense, I doubt she would have reacted the way she did when Sevarious revealed that info to her.

And like I said before, that doesn't mean that I think Angela should raise her own children the human way. In fact, I'm glad that she doesn't.

Matt: No offense, but I'm a little confused on what you're trying to say with Broadway/Hudson down there. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
And yes, I know what a "bad newbie" is, and I'm glad you don't think of me as such ;)
I rather enjoy these lively debates, even though I should be doing something a lot more constructive with my time, LOL.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:49:12 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Obed: I agree with what you said. Angela didn't call Goliath "father" until Sevarius revealed the truth. That shows that she was interested in her biological parentage. She was raised by humans who knew very little about gargoyle culture, so I'm not surprised. I do think that, eventually, as she learns more about the gargoyle way, she'll raise the new hatchlings in the rookery sense, while still thinking of Goliath as her biological father.

Besides, I think that, if you take away Goliath's love for his daughter, you're really doing a disservice to the episode Hunter's Moon. Because his daughter was almost killed, and in his quest for revenge, he got the Clock Tower destroyed and Elisa almost killed. And why? Because his daughter almost died in his arms.

And let's not forget Demona in The Reckoning. She turned against Thailog and saved the clan she had wanted to destroy earlier, just to save her beloved daughter. And let's not forget, she was seconds away from destroying all sentient life on Earth at the end of Hunter's Moon, until Goliath reminded her of Angela, "our daughter." Of course, she still put everyone in jeopardy when she tossed that vial into the air... but this is Demona we're talking about here. At least she gave Goliath a chance to save the vial. She could've shattered it right away.

And I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but oh well. This comment room has been so alive with activity lately that I can hardly keep up! I just had to add my two cents.

Demonic Lover: There are many homosexuals in the fandom and no one has a problem with them. I like to think that Gargoyles fans are very open-minded because of what the show has taught us about prejudice and acceptance of all that is different.

Instead of trying to start a fight or making threats, why not try to join our conversation? Also, you should know that this isn't a chatroom. You should think about what you're going to say before you start randomly making posts. Make one big post instead of ten little ones. If you want live conversation, then go to a chatroom.
D. Taina - [<-- Screenshots!]
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:33:18 pm EST from 172.133.109.55

you know, you're right. just to let you know, all my life i have been an outcast. There is one this that you need to know about me. No, everyone now knows about me comming out of the closet. I cannot define sarcasam. Yes, I cannot just go typing any sort of BS to anyone like # said. I understand that. Life is not easy, you have to live and let live. I can't always be such an old fogey all the time. If I ever type something reaqlly depressing or stupid, just let me know without sarcasam. Life as a teenager is a scenario that has to do with putting up with others and learning to ignore people that are being jerks. Sometimes life is a little 'tit for tat'. Ive talked about this with my partner and everything he tells me is 100% correct.Just let me know if I do anything stupid here.
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:24:47 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Demonic - Greg wasn't calling you a cross-burner or hitler worshiper. It was in his signature, as if calling himself those things. (In a sarcastic way, I'm sure. Maybe because as Goliath6977 you posted asking "Are you guys in the KKK?"? Just a guess.)
That being said, posting under a different name in order to defend yourself.. not cool. We can see that it's the same IP number doing the posting.

Some tips:
Be yourself.
Don't flood the room with comments every few minutes that could have been combined into one post.
Don't tell people to do things like get hit by a bus.
...
Don't threaten violence against people at The Gathering.. or anywhere else, really. Especially not people like Greg.

You're only proving your asshattery with all this. Please calm down, try to be sensible. These dramatic outbursts will not make you popular and liked, you know.
If you want respect, earn it.
Y2Hecate - [y2hecate@aol.com]
~Nikki/Hecate~
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:09:37 pm EST from 216.145.71.5

DL has done the same form of crap at GFW recently. I find it's better to ignore them, since they are obviously suffering from iodine deficenecy or ate paint chips as a child.
#
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:08:14 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

hey, greg, about you just typed, that was pretty much of a bitch slap strait to the face If i ever get the chance to see you at the Gathering, you're getting a swift kick in the groin as an very early Christmas present. how's that? It works both ways. You give me a slap, you get a kick... with high heels!
Demonic lover
hope you'll like it!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 3:01:57 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

*rolls eyes*
__________________________________________________________________
good points JJ G., actually believe it or not, i'm a little more convinced now. i still think Angela and the rest are far more focused on the rookery parents concept, but i can see why Angela might have a little more interest in biological parents then is typical.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:51:25 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Ok I think Greg's ramble on Sanctuary, the part under the heading THE GARGOYLE WAY is very relevant to this Angela/Goliath discussion. Now all I was trying to prove was that Angela initially had an interest in her biological parentage. It clearly says so in that ramble, in fact it goes a little further and says she had an OBSESSION but whatever...

Now that's all I was trying to say. Whatever motives she or Goliath or whatever anyone else had is just a little too speculatory for me, but I only wanted to acknowledge that Angela certainly was interested in her biological parentage. She must have been aware that Goliath was her rookery father, and probably Demona too. But did she have all these Dad issues BEFORE she found out he was her biological father? No. She knew he was a parent already, so why would it concern her or surprise her that Goliath was her direct father? To Gargoyles it doesn't matter either way. IN fact, the only reason Goliath himself was concerned about Angela knowing about Demona stemmed directly from the fact that she WAS interested in her her biological parents were...which obviously leads to his concerns about her knowing about Demona being her mother. If it were any of the other rookery children, this wouldn't have been an issue whatsoever, since they wouldn't view Demona as a mother anymore. Yet Angela did, precisely because she was thinking about things in a *gasp* distinctly more human way...which doesn't surprise me becuase she was raised by humans.

And here's another link that I think further supports my understanding of the whole thing.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8142
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:48:31 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

hey, if you would like to read stories about your favorite characters from gargoyles, go on to www.fanfiction.net
Demonic lover
hope you like it!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:45:19 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

crimson rogue, how can i find peace an acceptance when greg just called me an asshat???????
Demonic lover
hey greg, get hit by a bus!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:34:14 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

I am not a cross burner!
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:30:20 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Listen greg, i am not an Adolf Hitler worshiper! MY dad is! instead of gassing jews, he's gassing gays!
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:29:28 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

HEy, crimson rogue,
Thank you for making me feel a heck of a lot better. what you wrote really touched me inside. it is great to know that there is someone who knows how i feel.
Have a grrrrrrrrrrreat valantines day!
Crzydem, I am sry for calling you a bitch.
Demonic lover
" Delilah, love someone tonight!" The deliah show on sunny 101.5
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:24:55 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Hey, Asshat! We can see your IP number. We know you're the same douche.

And with that, you have lost any credibility you may have had... Oops! Except you never had any.

:P
Greg Bishansky
Sincerely, Your friendly neighborhood, Pat Robertson loving, Confederate Flag Waving, Hitler worshipping, Cross burning, KKK Segregationist
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:24:02 pm EST from 66.192.104.10

thank you, jj gegarious, I think you pretty much summed up what i was trying to say. I think some people might think I was trying to project "human" ideas on the gargoyles, but far from it.

If anything, blame the magus, katharine and tom...XD
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:16:46 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Hey, give DL a break! I feel the same as he does. I too am gay. On the part that he typed on " segregation", I think he means that he is being discriminated by others so badly its not even funny! I have several gay friends that get teased and made fun of by other people. Are you guys the KKK? Jeez, to me he seems like a very nice guy, its like a gay gargoyle being tormented by his clan. Are you guys that heartless? Don't you show any compassion?
Goliath6977
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:16:37 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Me below.
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:08:36 pm EST from 64.192.77.98

matt>> As Broadway, Brook and Lex, you pretty much got what I was trying to say. I'll try to expand on that latter.

* * *
Also, I doubt that obed is saying that obed is saying that Angela has totally or even mostly human views on parentage, just that she might have an interest in her biological father that a typical gargoyle wouldn't have.

Personally, I agree. Angela probably imprinted on the Magus, the Princess and Tom as her "rookery parents" but still, from hearing the humans talking about their former lives, has an appreciation for biological parents. That doesn't mean that she still doesn't have instinctual gargoylian concepts as well.

She has been raised differently. There can be no doubt about that. She was raised by folks who only know of gargoyle culture second-hand. Perhaps those who disagree are reading between the lines too much?

Also, why can't Western human parentage concepts and gargoylian concepts overlap? You can have a mother, and mothers, all at the same time. "Your mother" and "your mothers" are distinct concepts that happen to share the same word in English.
Anonymous
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:07:45 pm EST from 64.192.77.98

Matt -> thanks bro! i am honored by your complimentarianism ^.^

Demonic Lover -> I am sorry you have a difficult situation to live through. I hope you can find peace and acceptance here. Before that happens too easily though, you will have to try and be a little more realistic and not so aggressive at attention getting. We all want attention here, you are not alone. Why else would we post? The point is the way in which you are seeking the attention is detrimental. You do not have to impress or entertain us. Just be real. I hope that helps.

And as of yet, no one has really attacked you as much as they may have felt like. People are trying to be patient, and it's getting harder to stay that way.

This isnt to say you arent wanted, just try and tone some of the manic depressive emo stuff down a little bit ^.^

And have a fantabulous day!
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:06:58 pm EST from 12.201.31.162

in fact forget about tht last comment. you are damn right! I reall need to get over the thing i cannot change, I feel that i am sooooo alone in this world. I always fell like I am lost, without anyone to talk with about how i feel inside.
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:05:46 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Are you calling me a drama queen? Do you wanna go? I don't have to put up with this. You just wait until you are in my shoes or loin cloth crying your eyes out because your dad hates you. Plus he hates you because you have friends that are gay! You don't know what my life is like, especially at my school. I am the only one there that likes gargoyles, all of the musicals that andrew lloyd Webber has done, celtic music, obsessions over Orlando Bloom( He is sooo sexy)!
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:00:45 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

thanks matt, i rather enjoy these lively discussions. ^ - ^
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:58:37 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

i'll agree that being raised by humans may have changed their perspectives a lil bit, but i still hold that Angela was more interested in rookery parents than biological parents.

hey Demonic Lover, usually i ignore newbie fools in the room, but you are being exceptionally idiotic. why exactly are you coming to this room if everyone here bothers you? i can't see any reason for you to lash out agaisnt anyone as we have all been extremely tolerant of your behavior considering how you've been acting. i don't understand how you are being segregated, and i have no idea what being gay has to do with anything. i'm gay too, and i certainly don't feel the need or see a point in running around the comment room making trouble and calling people names. heres a suggestion: either stop posting stuff, start acting mature, or simply leave the room. to put to in terms you might understand better: shut up, grow up or get out.

to all the other newbies> do ya see now why us old regulars tend to be a bit skeptical of newbies. unfortunatly, Demonic Lover is more of the typical newbie, most of the rest of you new people (PGF, TCR, O) are the exception, and even though you guys are not agreeing with me, at least you are capable of holding a decent, intelligent conversation. i really hope you guys stick around.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:41:33 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

BattleBeast: there already is a fan-supported site with episode guides and synopses.

http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:29:08 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

This might have become lost in the mix, but...

I've noticed that on the Internet Movie Database you can update information for INDIVIDUAL EPISODES. so that means we can flood the Dtabase episode by episode with Gargoyles info! They have every episode listed by name. It would be really cool to have every episode filled with behind the sceens info directly from Greg.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:25:13 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

so...angela wasn't raised differently than other gargoyle clans? despite being raised by humans...? I think being raised by humans, even in a communal setting, would still affect the way she thought and the way she saw things. Maybe not to some drastic view, but i think it's there.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:04:19 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

DL-- Please go back and re-read what I said. You're acting like a drama queen.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:04:17 pm EST from 24.126.8.44

<<I really honestly think that Angela, despite being a gargoyle, was raised differently. I don't think anyone can argue with that.>>

Except that it is being argued, and argued very well.

You're entitled to your interpretation, even if it happens to be wrong ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:55:39 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

So its segregation then? Fine! Be that way! am i the only garg fan that's "h&q" ? I wasn't stereotyping Goliath!
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:54:19 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

:: looks at the room, then thinks better of saying anything at all ::

132 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Los Angeles, California!
Patrick Toman - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"If you can't be good, be good at it." - Keith David
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:49:49 pm EST from 68.254.148.133

Demonic lover-- You're new, so we don't expect you to know that calling our beloved CrzyDemona a "Bitch" is addressing her by her formal title around here.

Also, take a number... you're not the only one who's "here and queer." Get over yourself.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:46:58 pm EST from 24.126.8.44

eh...I think everyone is fully capable of understanding the "gargoyle way". :) I think it's adequately explained in the show, and we understand that gargoyles do things differently from humans. I think the show makes all of that clear. And I think we all like it that way. We all are fascinated by gargoyle culture and customs.

I think the only real point that is in contention here is Angela's particular feelings and views about her situation. Even though the show still explains the gargoyle's unique family life, I still get the sense that Angela is reacting the way we've been saying she has. And that's not because I don't get it, because I understand the concept, and it's not becuase I want to project my own human way of thinking on Angela, it's simply because I'm going by what I witnessed on the episodes. I really honestly think that Angela, despite being a gargoyle, was raised differently. I don't think anyone can argue with that. I think it's logical to assume that being raised the way she was, along with her other brothers and sisters, that it certainly must have produced ways of thinking that may not have fully agreed with typical gargoyle customs or views. And I think that was a main point with those eps about Angela/Goliath. I think those episodes were specifically about how two different views came into conflict.

Plus I'm not saying that Angela didn't understand this concept of family and parentage herself, but that she may have initially been more interested in it in a way that gargoyles typically aren't. I'm only saying that's what I saw in those episodes. But like others have said, Angela reconciled with that info and probably views it more like typical gargoyles. I still think that being raised by humans did have an affect on how she turned out though. You have to remember that culture is not genetic. It's something you learn, and it can change, and it can also be something you adopt yourself to.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:43:04 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

:: battens down the hatches :: Oh, boy.

Folks, I am not exactly being overwhelmed here with panel suggestions ... if you don't speak up now, I will tolerare NO whinging when you get to the Gathering and don't find the one special panel you most wanted to see! So hop to it, huh?
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:35:04 pm EST from 71.112.172.65

::Looks down at DL's post:: You know, I almost pity you now. Wait, no I don't.

Back on topic... found another post from Greg.

********************

Lily V. writes...

I read somewhere that Hudson had a child with mate. Was it a male child or female? Do you think he had grandchildren?

Greg responds...

Hudson has had three biological children, if that's what you're getting at, including Broadway.

But you're thinking like a human. Hudson has many rookery children and grandchildren, including Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway and Angela.

Scott Iskow writes...

1. Do Brooklyn and/or Lexington have any biological siblings on Avalon? Perhaps other blood relatives?

2. Does anyone in the Garg universe know or find out that Broadway and Hudson are related?

I know that these are questions that wouldn't matter to a gargoyle, but I was curious. :)

Greg responds...

1. Probably.

2. A non-issue. So no. I don't think so. (Unless I find some dramatic purpose for it that overwhelms what I think is the coolness of no one knowing OR caring.)

lance bierlein writes...

is angela really demona's daughter?

Greg responds...

Biologically, yes. But Katharine is her clan mother.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:32:50 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Hey Crzydem, How about if you just backoff! I wasn't stereotyping Goliath, I was fantassizing about him, I am here and queer and proud! Get used to it you Bitch!
Demonic lover
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:23:15 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Hey! I've noticed that on the Internet Movie Database you can update information for INDIVIDUAL EPISODES. so that means we can flood the Dtabase episode by episode with Gargoyles info! They have every episode listed by name. It would be really cool to have every episode filled with behind the sceens info directly from Greg.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:09:48 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

I think Angela was interested in her biological parentage only as much as it let her understand Goliath better and understand who is ONE OF HER rookery mothers (Demona). if Sevarius had never told her what he told her i doubt she would have ever cared or mentioned it. instead she used that information as a tool to learn more about her and her siblings parentage. Demona is as much a mother to Gabriel and Ophelia as she is to Angela and i think any of them would've reacted poorly to finding out. i also think Goliath would've made the attempt to shelter all of them from this information. they are all his children, and he knows Demona could attempt to manipulate any of them. when Demona was on Avalon and attacked Angela and Gabriel, Goliath didn't try to reason with her by saying "This gargoyle might be our daugther!" he said "These are our Clan's children!" i stand behind my opinion that Ophelia or any of the others would've been upset about learning Demona was their rookery mother, just as Angela did. Angela only brought up the biological thing when Goliath was shunning his role as a rookery father. she used that information to persuade Goliath that he should see her as a daughter, if not because of human custom, then because they shared a human-like familiar link.

PGFish> "Just imagine, for a moment that you didn't read every Q and A here at ASK GREG, and there was no cultural background for the gargoyles, only what we have on screen. It would certainly seem as if Angela was interested in her biological parents."
-keep in mind that you (i assume) are human and you are viewing the show and the relationship from a human perspective. of course we are going to see them as acting as father and daughter biologically, but i think that in both of their views they are thinking rookery father and daughter.
"But I can't deny the fact that (onscreen, at least)she has a real interest in her biological parentage."
- thats not a fact. her interest is in her parents, yes, but as Goliath points out many times, she has many mothers and fathers. he is one of them and he was having issues accepting that role because he was afraid that identifying himself with "rookery father" would lead to the recognition that Demona is "rookery mother" and thats something he wished to avoid.
"And again, think about Angela's reaction to Sevarious' declaration that Goliath is her father. Could you see Broadway reacting this way to the news that he's Hudson's son? I can't."
- i can, very easily. i can see Broadway be just as surprised and a little awed as Angela was because neither of them ever considered it before. likewise, i can see both of them getting over it pretty fast. Angela didn't forget that information, but i don't think it was a major part of her feelings towards Goliath or Demona. Broadway has always known Hudson was his rookery father, why would his feelings change at all? "so what? hes still my father."

HoEyes> "Sometimes I think the only reason she didn't glide down there and tear the Princess and her companions to shreds was because she was still in too much shock over seeing the rest of her clan frozen in stone at night."
- i was only commenting on that statement. i agreed with you. it was only two posts below where you say i put words in your mouth. saying i agree with you and then explaing why i agree does not mean i'm putting words in your mouth.

i agree with PGFish that the Gargoyle Way probably is a result of instinct, culture, biology, environment, etc. i'd also add that in large part it is a result of neccesity. if you have a Clan laying a bunch of eggs at the same time in the same place and the eggs look identical and sit down there for ten years, its gonna be quite difficult to know who conceived whom when they hatch. keep in mind, only recently have humans developed DNA testing to find parentage, before that gargoyles had very few clues, so a community rookery and parentage developed, probably ages and ages ago. by now, its not just tradition, its gargoyle instinct.
as i said before, i think the gargates reproduction is a key to many of their behaviors, traditions and cultures.

and hey, i still think everybody is thinking too much like a human. try thinking like a gargoyle, its hard, but things Angela and Goliath are doing and saying make more sense when you do.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:07:52 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Todd: Why would you say that? At no point in this entire conversation has anyone said that they should throw out the gargoyle way. We're just saying that given the unusual way the Wyvern/Manhattan clan has developed, there will be cases where they act differently than they normally would. Angela was interested in her biological heritage- yes, she'd probably grow out of it by the time she had her own children, but, gargoyle way or not, she was interested. Nashville formed a strong bond with Brooklyn and Katana not because of biology, but simply because they've had so much time together And Goliath may want to raise his and Elisa's child, whatever species it is, the gargoyle way, but I'm betting Elisa would want to raise it the human way. She wouldn't mind the clan being involved, but I think she'd want to be its mother. And I imagine the conflict between the gargoyle and human way will be very interesting in that case. I think Broadway and Angela's kids will be the first time where there's really an opportunity to raise them the gargoyle way, because (s)he will be the first to be part of the whole clan from the beginning. I don't want to change the gargoyles into winged humans. I'm fascinated by aliens in fiction (defined here as thinking beings who are very different from humans, not necessarily from another planet), but when they react with humans, there will be compromises. They've already adopted kissing, after all. Surrounded by humans, and with a human as part of their clan, they'll pick up some other things. I think they will still use the gargoyle way after they get a significant number of eggs in the rookery, but some gargoyles, surrounded by humans, may end up using a more human way of doing things. Occasional compromises with humans make it interesting; it doesn't automatically betray their characters.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 11:48:41 am EST from 68.58.253.131

I think I get it. The reason it might be confusing to some people is due to the fact that Angela is currently the only one of her rookery kin that is with the Manhattan Clan, so she's the one that Goliath has the most contact with.

Todd: No thanks. The last thing this world needs is another George Lucas.

Greg B: Just making sure. Demona has a history of saying just about anything she has to to achieve a certain end.

And is it just me, or is everyone putting words in my mouth this week? Matt: Could you please direct me to my exact comment, because I don't remember saying it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You're not the only one with weapons, laddie." -MacBeth in "City of Stone, Part Four."
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 8:28:23 am EST from 69.174.1.148

After reading much of this argument, I'm almost tempted to wonder if maybe Disney should just reboot the continuity of "Gargoyles" from scratch so that, in the new version, the gargoyles will be humans who fell into Sevarius's clutches and were mutated by him into gargoyle-like creatures, meaning that they will be merely transformed humans with the mentality of humans and won't have all those customs that many of the fans can't seem to comprehend. :)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 7:23:47 am EST from 4.245.20.115

I never said that she wasn't interested, that was Matt. But I do think that Angela eventually grows out of it. So to speak.

There has to be a reason Demona doesn't reform while Angela is alive.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:40:04 am EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg B: Can you provide proof of a passage where Greg W. explicitly said that Angela has no interest in her parentage? I have never seen one. He said that Angela will raise her kids in the more traditional gargoyle way. That's different.

And again, think about Angela's reaction to Sevarious' declaration that Goliath is her father. Could you see Broadway reacting this way to the news that he's Hudson's son? I can't. So I just can't see how Angela and Broadway(et all) could have the same exact views on their parentage.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:37:00 am EST from 205.188.117.68

wow, you guys are fast...
Matt, Greg B :Okay, I understand where you are coming from, but I still see a lot of holes. Just imagine, for a moment that you didn't read every Q and A here at ASK GREG, and there was no cultural background for the gargoyles, only what we have on screen. It would certainly seem as if Angela was interested in her biological parents. And I really think she is, to an extent. I figure that once a rookery is established and there are other eggs there besides her own, her gargoyle instincts will kick in and she will treat all of them as her children. But I can't deny the fact that (onscreen, at least)she has a real interest in her biological parentage.

Goliath's and Elisa's child: I don't doubt that the whole clan would have a heavy impact on the child, seeing as they all live together, and raise the children together. (I'm assuming at some point that Elisa moves in with the gargoyles, I wonder how that would work, since Xanatos owns the castle).
however, even though Elisa is considered a part of the clan, she is a human. I know that it is a natural human instinct(more specifically for women) to bond closely with their individual children. And inevitabally, I think Elisa will go down that path, just as Angela's instincts will push her more towards the gargoyle way of raising kids. And seeing as how Elisa will have an intimate relationship with Goliath, the kid will probably see him as more of a father than the others (due in part to Elisa's human upbringing).

Well, that's my take and I'm sticking to it.
Obed: Thanks, I'm glad somebody agrees with me ;)
And I agree with everything you say. I think the communal family concept is a mixture of everything: instincts, cultural, biological, environmental...
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:25:21 am EST from 205.188.117.68

<<I really think that Angela is interested in her biological parentage for its own sake, I can't help but think that is the way it was meant to be portrayed.>>

The canon as well as ASK GREG disagrees ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:18:14 am EST from 65.33.202.237

no surprise, but i agree fully with PGF's assessment of Angela's feelings and views of her own parentage. I really think that Angela is interested in her biological parentage for its own sake, I can't help but think that is the way it was meant to be portrayed. I still contest that Angela's views differ from typical Gargoyles because of her and her siblings unique circumstances.

Still, I think its an isolated case. I still like the whole gargoyle family dynamic and certainly enjoy the uniqueness of it. I think that Angela's unique perspective can enrich this already very fascinating aspect of the Gargoyle's culture. And even within their unique family setup, individual gargoyles certainly would be more attached to other individuals. I don't think it means favorites or anything, but I'm sure there are some that just connect more closely with others, like in any family. It might be with a close biological relative or parent, or it might be with a more distantly related cousin or whatever.

I certainly think Nashville would be closer to his parents, not simply because they are his biological parents, but for the same reason any child would be close to anyone...because they grew up with them. It seems natural to assume he would be close to his own parents just becuase he spent more time with them and developed a relationship with them. Once joining the rest of the clan in Manhattan, of course he would be regarded as a child of the whole clan, but the close relationship he no doubt must have already developed with the two gargoyles that happened to be his parents would still be there.

I don't really have a close relationship with my biological father, but I've had three stepmothers, whom I was able to view as mother figures in addition to my own mother. I have also had close relationships with some of my step-siblings. Blood ties aren't what make a family, it's the relationships you have with those people.

So I have a question...what does everyone think, is the communal family aspect an instinctual behavior, or is it a more social, cultural thing that developed over time?
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:13:18 am EST from 71.57.178.10

thanks Greg B, "QUIT THINKING LIKE A HUMAN!" amen to that.

Kris> "though you guys have probably talked over everything considering the series is nearly 12 years old"
don't be so sure about that. a week or two ago we discussed the Mutates in more detail than we've ever really discussed before. i'm sure everything has been mentioned, but i doubt everything has been "talked over". i could be wrong, but i don't remember ever really having a major discussion about the Medici Tablet, the Korean Clan, Chavez's husband and daughter, many of the World Tour introduced characters and lots of other subjects. some subjects come up in here a lot (Demona's motivations), some rarely come up (Coldstone, the Mutates), some have yet to come up, but they are topics for another day.
actually, this relates to part of the reason i'm doing those "Previously, In the Station 8 Comment Room..." things. it brings up and reminds us of what we've talked about in the past, and hopefully, can stir up some new conversation.
also, once the comic comes out (!!!!!!), i'm sure we'll be seeing lots of very new original topics to talk about in here.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 2:00:08 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Cherubique writes...

Okay, maybe you won't reveal Lex's mate, but will you tell us if he has any childrens>?

Greg responds...

Sure, all the eggs of certain generations would be children to every member of the Clan including Lex.

QUIT THINKING LIKE A HUMAN!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:37:13 am EST from 65.33.202.237

PGFish> i think Angela was just trying to get Goliath's attention when she mentioned the "biological father" thing. she saw that he wasn't being a rookery father to her so she tried a different angle, which didn't work either.

I totally agree with Greg B here on Goliath and Elisa's kid. even a staunch traditionalist like Hudson recoginizes Elisa as one of the Clan. certainly they will all see the adopted child as a child of the Clan. the interesting part will be seeing Elisa's reaction and her family's reactions to the kid. will they be able to assimilate the gargoyle way or will Elisa and the Maza's turn out to be as human as the rest of us and single the kid out a bit?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:35:36 am EST from 24.182.146.1

PGF> "Goliath has clearly learned the lesson Diane Maza sought to teach him in "Mark of the Panther". He not only has no qualms about viewing Angela as his daughter, he also has come to regard the bond between parent and child as sacred."

And again, to Goliath, parent and child is very different than what it is to a human.

As for him and Elisa adopting, I am sure Hudson, Angela and the trio and Katana, etc would have just as much influence over the kid they adopt as they would. Elisa is just as much a part of the clan as they are also.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:31:08 am EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg B: I have nothing against the way gargoyles raise their young. Just because it's a hard concept to get my brain over doesn't mean that I don't respect this unique part of gargoyle culture. And I'm sure instinct plays a role in it as well, seeing as how Angela will raise her children the "gargoyle way" without any qualms.

But again, there are exceptions when differing social environments play a role. I have no qualms with broadway, angela, and lex seeing nashville as a rookery son and raising him in a communal family. But seeing as how Nash was raised for a good part of his childhood by his parents, the social dynamics he would have with Brook and Katana would differ from the dynamics he has with Broadway and Angela, whether or not they would all be considered his parents.
That's what I meant.

As for Goliath/Angela: I kind of disagree with you there Matt. I think Angela was very interested in her biological heritage:
Goliath:"you have many mothers and fathers, you are the child of the whole clan"
Angela: "But you're my BIOLOGICAL father"
And remember her reaction to finding out that Goliath was her father from Sevarius...
*blank stare* "Goliath... is my FATHER?" It is not likely she would have reacted this way if she was raised in the same manner as Goliath and the trio.
Though she still has gargoyle instincts, Angela WAS raised by humans. And a lot of human ideals probably rubbed off on her. I cannot see Ophelia and Goliath having that same conversation that you described, Matt.

And Demona is a very special case. I think she would see Angela differently than the Avalon gargs. Though I would love for her to come in contact with some them (when she's not trying to kill them).

And Goliath, well, I think he's another special case. While he is the clan leader and an firm upholder in the gargoyle traditions, I tend to think he deviates the most from it (even more so than the trio). Obviously, he is in love with a human (that's certainly not part of the "gargoyle way" ;))
And I do believe his outlook of Angela changed. In the beginning he KNEW Angela was interested in her biological parentage and he discouraged her from seeing him as her father, biolocial or otherwise, because he didn't want her to come in contact with Demona. But I believe, with the help of Diane Maza, Angela's insistance, and not to mention the fact that some of Elisa's ideals probably rubbed off on him, he came to see Angela as *his* child.
Read what Greg said in his ramble on The Gathering pt.2 under "PARENTING":

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=463
Another thing I find interesting in some of Greg's vague answers about a possible child for G/E, he says they will raise the (adopted) child "together." That certainly sounds like the human way to raise children to me. He could have said that the whole clan would adopt a child and raise it, but he didn't.

*whew* Ok, I got that off my chest :), man that took a long tim to type, lol.
Wow, the weeks just keep getting busier! Fun times :)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:24:30 am EST from 205.188.117.68

wow, Blaise, i've been coming to the Comment Room for over 5 years and i never noticed we had a fireplace before... i do know that we have an extensive array of cookies on the cookie table, and that the Comment Room has no closet, never knew about the fireplace though.
also, your entrance and your mention of your gargoyle dreams had me cracking up. giant Quarrymen blimp, LOL. after all the airships in the show being brought down, you wouldn't think the Gargoyles would have much trouble taking out a blimp.

i had forgotten about the traditionalist New Wyvern Clan, which is funny since i was one of the first to know abou them (winning the G2198 prize with Phil). yes, i'm sure they are going to be very stuck on the Gargoyle Way thing which is good. most likely, the majority of the New Wyvern gargs are going to be a branch off the Avalon Clan, so that says something about how the Avalon Clan runs their rookeries.

and i agree totally that once the Manhattan Clan starts having rookeries with 3 eggs or more (probably Gwen or Lance-s generation) they will definitly be back to the traditional Gargoyle Way, but even the gargs born before that i doubt will care much that so and so are their biological parents.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 1:13:15 am EST from 24.182.146.1

****A ferocious gust of wind blasts through the Room, sending papers flying and the fire blazing. The wind begins to swirl and form a funnel. At first, it's as large as the Room, but slowly it begins to shrink until it is the size of a man. As the whirlwind dies down, a figure becomes visible within. At last, Blaise stops spinning...and falls to the floor.**** Oh man...I forgot how dizzy that move makes me. Hi again, everybody! Got a number of things to respond to, so here we go!

MATT> "you did come to mind when i was thinking of absent regulars, but i didn't list you among the examples cuz you've posted much more recently then some others and i figured you were lurking cuz i noticed your submissions to Ask Greg not long ago."

Yeah, but I still feel a bit guilty for not posting as much as I used to.

PURPLEGOLDFISH> I thank you for the compliment.

GARGOYLES DREAMS> Oddly enough, I had a GARGOYLES related dream last night. I can't quite remember what it was about (watching some episode I'd never seen before or something) but it was fun.
I've had several "never before seen episode" dreams (one dealing with a giant Quarrymen blimp), but the GARGOYLES related dream I actually remember most was being a cast member in some sort of GARGOYLES musical! I think I was Max Loew (who I look nothing like).

GARGOYLES SIGHTING> I was visiting Universal Citywalk today and entered a comic book/novelty/all-around fanboy shop called "Things from Another World." As I walked in I heard some familar music. Sure enough, GARGOYLES was playing on the two store TVs. THE MIRROR to be precise. Brightened my day considerably.
So, there IS exposure out there!

GARGOYLE PARENTING AND CULTURE> Well, lump me in with the "traditionalists" on this one, I guess. I like the idea of the "communal family" and would hate to see that lost, or even mitigated before I have a chance to actually see it in action (we didn't get a chance to see much parenting at Wyvern, and the Trio are, for the most part, grown-up). Of course, I like anything that makes the gargoyles unique (physical as well as cultural).
Yeah, I know that some "cultural change" via immersion is pretty much a given (except in the case of thouroughly traditionalist clans, such as the future "New" Wyvern clan), but I really hope it doesn't extend to every "child of the clan" knowing *exactly* who his or her biological parents are.
Nashville, Tachi, will be special cases, naturally, but I'd like to think that, once the clan gets fully settled and starts having decent-sized rookeries again, the communal raising will fully take hold once more.
...Heh. Just now, for some bizarre reason I find myself hoping Talon and Maggie are able to have kids. Man, it's weird the way my brain works.

That's it from me for now. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise gets back on his feet, and takes a running leap into the fireplace. The flames billow for a brief instant before resuming their normal size and temperature.****
Blaise
"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:49:39 am EST from 209.178.128.180

Demona> gotta agree with HoEyes. i think Demona was as depressed as Goliath was and neither of them felt they had what it takes to raise the eggs. both of them felt they had failed the Clan. Greg W has said that Demona basically banished herself, the typical gargoyle punishment.

Garg parenting> with Nash, Tachi, and Artus in particular, i think these kids will be well aware of who their biological parents are. but i still think everyone is thinking too much like a human. i honestly don't think any of these three will care much. they are gargoyles, they may have biological parents, but they don't care who they are. when Angela found out Goliath was her biological father, i think she was initially surprised because it never really occurred to her, but i think she more or less got over it. until Demona showed up and she found out Goliath and Demona were once a couple. that is when she got worried. but i think a large part of that is that she never really considered Demona a rookery mother, but when she realized she was probably her biological mother it was scary for her because suddenly she realized Demona was her rookery mother. that would have had an effect on any of Angela's siblings. Demona is their mother? how tragic!
i honestly think that Coldstone and Coldfire do consider Angela a rookery daughter. i think Demona would consider Gabriel her rookery son.
if you really think about it, none of the gargoyles are really that focused on the biological aspects of it. thats a human thing. to be a rookery parent has to do with behavior, not genes.
lets say Ophelia had gone off with Goliath and Elisa instead of Angela. obviously Sevarius wouldn't discover she was Goliath's daughter, but it doesn't matter much. she is still Goliath's rookery daughter and i think finding out that Goliath and Demona were a couple once and thus Demona is also her rookery mother would trouble Ophelia just as much as it did Angela. i also think Demona would still feel a strong bond with Ophelia as she would with any of the "eggs". Ophelia is her daughter too. and Demona was raised in the Gargoyle Way as well. Demona certainly sees all the eggs as her children, just as Goliath does.
the fact that Angela, Goliath's biological daughter, joined him on the skiff was just a coincidence or fate or whatever. it wouldn't change much. i mean, really would it?

Ophelia: You never told me you and Demona were once in love...
Goliath: You were eavesdropping?!
Ophelia: Is Demona my mother?
Goliath: It was a long time ago. It doesn't matter anymore.
Ophelia: It matters to me, FATHER.

i think the only thing that would've changed is Elisa's reactions, but of course that expected as she is human. if Ophelia had asked Elisa:

Ophelia: I have to know. Is Demona my mother?

i wonder if Elisa would've said yes acknowledging the Gargoyle Way or said "sorta" or "no".

just my take.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:34:02 am EST from 24.182.146.1

HoE. Oh, Demona was sincere there. How else would she see the whole thing?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2006 12:28:55 am EST from 65.33.202.237

Todd: I'm wondering if Demona was being sincere when she had that little tirade in front of Angela in "The Reckoning" (the remark about how she looked upon what the Princess and the Magus had done as kidnapping), or if that was just acting on her part to try and get Angela to alter her thinking towards humans. Because if it was sincere, that might tell us something about what she might have been thinking when she saw the eggs being taken away. Sometimes I think the only reason she didn't glide down there and tear the Princess and her companions to shreds was because she was still in too much shock over seeing the rest of her clan frozen in stone at night.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You're not the only one with weapons, laddie." -MacBeth in "City of Stone, Part Four."
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 11:49:25 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

<<Bishansky, don't take this as a personal attack- I don't intend it as such. It just seems to me that, in trying to make sure the characters stay true to themselves, you expect them not to change at all. One of the most unique things about Gargoyles was the strong continuity. Almost every episode changed something in the Gargoyles universe, and the characters were constantly evolving. I'd hate to think of that halting that for fear of acting out of character.>>

I never said I don't expect characters to change. But I have cited Ask Greg, I expect characters to continue to grow and change.

I mean, hypothetical situation, in a few years Elisa might not be a cop anymore. Hiding the gargoyles is bound to piss off Internal Affairs if things are found out that she doesn't want found out. Yeah, things would change, she would change.

But, to go with another hypothetical, Elisa is not going to become a serial killer. If someone wants to tell that story, there would be nothing in the continuity to support it.

There is character change and there is character rape. Just an example.

Take away the gargoyles own culture and they cease to be a unique species adn quickly become humans with wings. Maybe it's easy to write, but it would be damn boring to watch or read.

Same with Xanatos as a "good guy". He's not. I mean, look at TGC, where he was basically turned into Bruce Wayne without the angst... that was not the same character we watched for 66 episodes.

I expect the series and the characters to remain interesting and compelling. And for them to grow and change believably and organically.

Just so you know where I'm coming from
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 11:36:12 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg: Thank you very much for those links. I think that helps clear up the whole Angela/Goliath thing. Now i do want to clarify myself by saying that I wasn't trying to say that now Goliath loves Angela more than the other children. It just appeared to me that Angela's views on the whole matter were slightly different than the way Goliath was raised, and as Demonskyre said, that Goliath might be concerned what it might mean for Angela.

oh and also, i really like the bit on the second link that talks about how angela was raised. It suggests to me that gargoyles must fundamentally imprint differently on parental figures, that it isn't just a cultural thing. If that's the way it is, then it really does change my idea of the whole thing. I was under the impression that since all those avalon gargoyles were raised by humans, it meant that they would think about things like parentage in a more human way.

Honestly, I can't really say for sure what I think Angela might think about the whole issue. I assumed she might have been more interested in her biological parents the same way an orphan might want to know who their parents were. I also assumed that since she was raised by those three humans, i figured they would have raised the eggs as adopted children. Like Greg W. said, she had three parents, so did Angela view them as her rookery parents, and just add Goliath to that? Or did she view them as adoptive figures, and still wonder about who her real parents were? did she wonder in the sense of "who are my rookery parents?" or did she wonder about her biological parents? If Gargoyles naturally imprint upon multiple mothers and multiple fathers, then i can see the former happening. If they naturally imprint the way other species normally do (namely humans) and are conditioned to the typical Gargoyle way, then I can see the latter happening.

In any case, regardless of how Angela may view her parentage, I don't think it would have much bearing on how she would raise her own rookery children. She could very well easily go with the Gargoyle way and not have it be an issue despite being raised differently herself.

...Culture is a very complicated and dynamic thing. I think it would affect individuals differently. I can certainly see some individual young Gargoyles adapting more human-like attitudes while completely retaining others.

oh my goodness please excuse the long post...XD
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 11:32:37 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Bishansky: You seem to be assuming that everyone's making absolute statements in these discussions. No one has said that the gargoyles are going to completely abandoned their traditional way of raising their children, nor, I think, does anyone want them to. Likewise, no one said that they expect Xanatos to become a saint overnight. However, big things are happening, and it would be wrong to assume that nothing is going to change as a result. No, I don't think the gargoyles will give up the gargoyle way of raising children, but there will be exceptions. Most notably, Nashville has been traveling with only Brooklyn and Katana for eight years (or is it sixteen, and eight "biologically?" Whatever). He'll be told that he has several rookery parents, but it is inevitable that he'll feel a stronger bond with the two he's spent years traveling with. As for Angela- it's hard to say for sure, but Goliath is the only one in the clan of the right age to be a parent to her, although that may be complicated once Brooklyn returns from Timedancing. Now what I was saying: I don't think that the whole paradigm of gargoyle parentage will be changed. But I do believe that they must have some possibility of genetic disease, and I doubt anything that deep in them will be instantly cured by a simple stone sleep. Stone can't cure everything. So I think it would be a good idea for them to at least know who their parents are, and I wonder if the way some of them think may be changed by that knowledge. On the whole, I think not, but it may be so for some of them. Bishansky, don't take this as a personal attack- I don't intend it as such. It just seems to me that, in trying to make sure the characters stay true to themselves, you expect them not to change at all. One of the most unique things about Gargoyles was the strong continuity. Almost every episode changed something in the Gargoyles universe, and the characters were constantly evolving. I'd hate to think of that halting that for fear of acting out of character.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Anyone can read the news to you. I promise to feel the news at you." -Stephen Colbert
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 11:18:54 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

How long do you guys think it would take to go through the entire Ask Greg archive? I went through the FAQ years ago and have skimmed parts of it since. Should probably give it another read-through before the comic begins...although maybe not, 'cause then certain things could be surprises if I've forgotten them. Hmm...hanging around here most things referred to in the FAQ or Ask Greg would probably be spoiled or already have been anyway, so I guess I'll just go ahead and re-read it.

But the Q&A archives seem intimidating. Would I be insane to attempt to get as much Greg-approved Gargoyles knowledge as I can from them?

I guess Greg's episode rambles would be another good place to start. I've only read three or four.

This would also help keep me from asking repetitive questions in this comment room and more than likely INSPIRE more discussion (hopefully some original reactions that may not have been brought up yet, though you guys have probably talked over everything considering the series is nearly 12 years old).
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:58:29 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

Read these links.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1683

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1679
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:48:26 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I've always thought a suprising number of people get the wrong idea from "Mark of the Panther" about exactly what this means for the Goliath/Angela relationship. It's yet another reason I wish we had seen the story where she meets Coldstone for the first time.

Goliath has a couple of things bugging him in this episode. For one, he's concerned about playing favorites. He's just found out that he's father to over 30 kids who are both a lot older and a lot younger than they should be in relation to him. (I think the number of eggs was 36, but i don't know if that counts Boudicca.) The one who is now travelling with him happens to be his biological daughter. It's not that he doesn't know that fact, and thanks to Sevarius, Angela knows it too. (There's a lot of possible interprtations of her suprised reaction to learning that Goliath is her father. It may well be that because neither he nor she aged normally, she just didn't think of him as being old enough to be a parent to her or any of her siblings.) But it doesn't really mean that much to Goliath. He was raised in a culture where children had several generations of parents. Biology didn't have any meaning for him. But he's concerned it might mean a lot to Angela, which is cause for two concerns. One, as he says, is that Angela will start expecting special treatment because she is his daughter by birth and that goes against how he was raised. The other is that Angela will start asking more questions about her parentage and we all know which homicidal gargoyle that leads to. Add to this the fact that Goliath is a first time parent in a very odd situation and you can see how the poor guy might have a little trouble knowing what to do.

When DIane Maza gives Goliath advice, she's not winning him over to the human way of parenting. She's just teaching him how to parent in general. She's raised three kids, and you can bet there were times when Elisa or Derek or Beth needed special attention. The situation Goliath is in would be analogous to Diane or Peter being at home with Beth while Derek and Elisa were off doing something else. It would be perfectly reasonable for either parent to have an activity with just Beth, since she was the only kid there at the time. Biology aside, Angela is the only kid Goliath is with right now and he's the only parent she has at the moment. So it's certainly not a betrayal of the gargoyle way for Goliath to develop a close relationship with Angela, praise her accomplishments, and call her his daughter. He'd do the same if Ophelia was the one on the skiff with them, but she's not.

Again, I wish we could see the story where Angela and Coldstone first meet. I imagine that she won't have quite the same close relationship with Othello/Coldstone and Desdemona/Coldfire as she does with Goliath simply because they aren't around as much. But I do wonder if meeting him/them helped her to feel that she had more than one loving parent (and a crazy lady who she doesn't yet realize also loves her a great deal). I imagine that meeting Hudson helped her sense of being a child of the clan as well, even if he didn't actually have a child in her generation (if I'm remembering right).
Demonskrye
One big happy family
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:46:12 pm EST from 209.6.250.47

<<He never didn't see her as a daughter. He sees Gabriel and Ophelia and the rest of the Avalon Clan as being just as much his children.>>

I don't think I misunderstood that. I'm pretty sure that Goliath saw all the avalon gargoyles as his children as well, but according to the way it was portrayed on the show and the way the other humans were considering it, I think what I said about it is the way it was supposed to be. I think a big factor to think about when it comes to the avalon gargoyles is that they weren't raised by gargoyles. They were raised by humans. Even if those humans tried to teach the gargoyles something of their culture, I think it's safe to assume that some human customs and ideas were absorbed by those gargoyles. the taking of names is one example. Angela always came off to me as being very interested in who her exact biological parents were, and I understood that her desire conflicted with the norm. To me, it always appeared that Goliath was resisting changing the way he thought about Angela, and that she wanted to see him as her father (and not the same way that gargoyles typically view their rookery fathers), as her biological paternal figure. That's the way I understood it, but I don't necessarily think that is a misunderstanding. I think that's the way it was meant to be portrayed.

And I really do think that any culture, when they exist as a minority within a larger culture, absorbing some customs is inevitable. I'm not saying that gargoyles will lose their culture, but i definitely think that they will inevitably absorb some ideas and customs that can be viewed as decidedly human. I come from a family of Puerto Rican descent, and I can say from experience that this happens all the time. Especially in the younger generation...which I can see happening with some of the younger gargoyles. I always noticed with the Trio how eager they were to explore and find out about their new world. In fact, throughout the whole series we see how much of human culture they adapted to.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:41:01 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

<<I mean, Goliath already sees Angela as his daughter>>

He never didn't see her as a daughter. He sees Gabriel and Ophelia and the rest of the Avalon Clan as being just as much his children.

A lot of people, from what I've seen, seem to misinterpret what exactly was going on with Goliath in those episodes. It was less about the gargoyle way and more about fear of Angela getting too close to Demona, since Angela was for a while hung up on the whole thing.

Also, Goliath didn't feel he should give one child special treatment over any other. But, as Diane Maza pointed out "Angela is the only hatchling with you."

Goliath didn't change his way of thinking.

Besides, the 2198 document shows that the Manhattan Clan continues to raise it's children the Gargoyle Way. So no, humans won't be winning this culture war ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 9:56:00 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I agree with matt, i think there is a lot of human thinking going on :). we're all so very used to the human way that families are raised. Gargoyles are a very communal species, and so their definitions and concepts of "mother" "father" "brother" and "sister" are much broader and have different weight than what we would normally think of them. They themselves don't seem to make such a big deal about it, and the fact that they don't normally use names adds to it. I think every Gargoyle relationship in the clan depends on the individuals involved. I think they simply see each other as who they are rather than the biological link they have or what generation they were born in. Judging by the way they interacted with each other on the series, they seemed to care less about how everyone was connected than we do. I think it only really matters from a character design point of view.

But I will add that despite having such a unique and interesting social dynamic, I do see the Gargoyles' culture being influenced by modern society. Especially for the Manhattan clan. There are so many social changes going on with them, and a lot of very unconvential relationships and situations happening to them that I don't see how some of their typical customs might be altered a bit or even revised. I don't think they will completely abandon the gargoyle concept of family (nor would I want them to) but I definitely think it's something that will be affected in some way by the modern world and their relationships with people. I mean, Goliath already sees Angela as his daughter, he has a human girlfriend who is now considered part of the clan, then you have all this other crazy time-jumping, and of course Lex's situation. I'd be surprised if any of that DOESN'T change the way they think about certain things. I think it will to a certain extent, since that has always been a big theme in the show.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 9:50:02 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

PGF> It just seems to me like you want gargoyles to raise their children the human way.

I'm sure Nashville was brought up and told how gargoyles raised their children, and heard all about Lex, Broadway and Angela, who will be just as much parents to him as Brooklyn and Katana.

Oh well, we'll see when the comic comes out.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 9:07:03 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg B: I never said that I was uncomfortable with how gargoyle raise their children. I think it's interesting too. I just meant that it makes more sense(from a human perspective) that one of the trio's children would look to the other two members of the trio as uncles rather than fathers. I hope that made sense...

Matt: Yes, I agree. Lance/Samson would probably look a little more like Goliath, maybe with G/Angela's coloring. And I also thought that both intrepretations of Artus were very well done.
And what you said about the rookery parents and how garoyles see relationships more in a social way was really great. I have to agree with that 100%.

Take Nashville for instance. For a big chunk of his childhood, he's raised by his biological parents. So his upbringing would resemble that of a human more than a gargoyle one. So when Brook and his family return from timedancing, I can't see Nash regarding Broadway and Lex as his fathers. I think an uncle/nephew relationship is more appropriate there.

I don't think the gargoyles would even think in these terms.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 8:53:21 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

I'm looking for a link I saw a few weeks ago, with all the Gargoyles backgrounds and pans. I think Demona May Stephans had it, but forget now :(
Siren
Demona (Marina Sirtis) will be at Mega-Con this year!
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 8:44:20 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

I've sometimes wondered if some of Demona's unadmitted guilt over the Wyvern Massacre applies not just to the slaughtered gargoyles, but also over the fact that she did nothing to stop Princess Katharine and the Magus from taking the eggs away. Remember, she didn't know that those two had had a change of heart - she'd certainly believe that they were still as anti-gargoyle as they were at the banquet scene in Part One - so from her perspective, they're looting the rookery for some fiendish purpose - anything from assisting the Magus in some arcane experiment to being used to make the world's largest omelet. And she just lets it happen without lifting a talon to stop them from loading up the eggs in their cart and driving off. I wouldn't be too surprised if she was tormented about that, deep down inside (but kept herself from consciously realizing it, too).
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 7:28:25 pm EST from 4.244.18.215

Kris> actually i was just simplifying there. you also have to take into account that the Pendent Wearers age twice as fast when they are wearing the Pendents!
so, you got the original 1000 year leap.
you've got numerous Time Travel issues, namely those involving Griff and Brook and family.
you've got Avalon where gargs age only an hour per day.
and you've got the Pendent Wearer's who age twice as fast.

add it all up and its a big mess. BUT, i think i have it all figured out.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 7:02:19 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

KRIS> Demona knows about Katharine, Tom and the Magus raising the eggs. I believe her exact words were: "Typucal humans, they pillage the castle AND steal our children" followed by "Humans have no place in any gargoyle clan."

Purplegoldfish> Why does the gargoyle way of raising hatchlings make you uncomfortable? I think it's really cool. Makes them unique.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 6:30:25 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

The age thing has always been interesting to me. Pretty huge to wrap your head around. I think Avalon complicates things the most. You can keep the limited number of Wyvern survivors from 994 straight pretty easily, and other than them there's just just Brooklyn and his family, plus Griff to consider. But with Avalon you have a whole separate clan (well, an offshoot of Wyvern, its descendants--technically) to take into account!

If we get to the point in the comics, or any future incarnation of Gargoyles, where Katherine is near death (though she's only 61 between 1994 and 1996), I hope at least Angela, Goliath, and Hudson get to go to Avalon to be there (Hudson completely missed out on seeing her, the Magus, and the rest of his grandchildren in the series).

I would've been interesting to see Demona's reaction to finding them alive after all this time as well. Great potential for some damn good drama in that scenario. Would she have been cool and flippant, not at all surprised considering her, Macbeth, and the Manhattan clan's survival? A new prime target for her hate and vengeance quest? Would she be especially conflicted because Katherine, Tom, and Magus (unfortunately not around for this theoretical confrontation) kept the eggs safe and raised her clan's children...or would she basically see it as her young having been stolen, possibly perverted by being parented by humans? She loves Angela, but was it explained to Demona how she survived and who looked after the hatchlings? How much do Demona and Macbeth remember from the events in "Avalon" ? I don't have a great memory of the first Demona and Macbeth episode that followed (the one in France where they're lovers, though she's just pretending or something?), so I'll probably have to wait for the final DVD set to have a clearer picture of how it all fitted together.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 6:26:15 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

Purplegoldfish> Thanks! Yay, I'm Elisa!
Dudette
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 3:49:22 pm EST from 62.252.32.16

Jurgan> sorry for the spelling error there. thanks PGFish for pointing that out.

Rookery parents> i dunno, i think we are suffering from too much humanity. perhaps we should simply say those who parent the kids are their rookery parents. i mean Othello and Desdemona are rookery parents to Gabriel (of course) as well as Angela and Ophelia, but they are now pretty much incapable of having anymore kids. if, however, they rejoin the Manhattan Clan and the new generations come around and they do some parenting i'm sure those garg kids may call them rookery parents if they want, but sometimes other expressions are more appropriate. Hudson is Goliath's rookery father, but i think Goliath sees him much more as a mentor or older, wiser friend. Hudson is a rookery grandfather to the Avalon eggs, and i think they'd see him that way. i mean, there is all sorts of possibilities. Yama and Sora are from seperate generations and they got together. Gabriel sees Angela as a sister and Ophelia as a mate even though they are both his rookery sisters.
i guess my point is that we are trying to use human terms to define a gargoyle concept. they are not "humans with wings". to gargoyles, i think the adults who parent a younger generation are rookery parents whether your genes are carried through that generation or not. and maybe if a gargoyle did lay an egg but didn't want to take the role of a father or mother to the eggs he/she would not be considered a rookery parent. i'm sure this makes perfect sense to the Clan, but its hard for us to grasp cuz we are so human. maybe they view it two ways. biologically and socially. depending on how they are thinking, an individual may or may not be considered a rookery parent. certainly some of the Avalon gargs would recognize that Demona is biologically a rookery parent, but socially i'd imagine that she is not considered a parent at all, at least to some.
gargoyles are probably just as confused as we are about human family structure. aunts? cousins? sister-in-law? too many names.
just my take.

PGFish> ah gotcha, figured some of them see him as Samson, but you can just call him Lancelot and it wouldn't change much, he could look the same. it is strange though that Samson will be either Lance's son or Artus and Gwen's grandson, and yet none of them strike me as very Goliath-esque. Samson in supposed to look like Goliath a lot, but none of the kids have have Goliath's wings, coloring, or horns, so he can't be uber-similar to Goliath if the kids do end up looking like this.
also, seeing Hudson and Demona's coloring come through is interesting, but i feel the parent's features would be more likely than the grandparents. i mean, look at Gabriel and Angela. Angela has Demona's wings and looks, Goliath's coloring and her horns seem to be a mix of both parents. Gabriel has his mom's hair, a skin color that is closer to his dad's, but a little brownish like his mom's, his mom's horns, a weird mix of his parent's wings, and then he has some features that neither parent's have like his chin horns. out of these two examples, only one feature seems to come out of nowhere, and its probably from a grandparent, unless its a new mutation, which sees very possible.
so the point here is, i think Artus, Gwen and Lancelot are more likely to look a lot more like their parents, esspecially where their coloring is concerned.
that said, i am very fond of how Artus was portrayed. he looks good, even, dare i say it, attractive. i'm sure he'll get any girl he wants (assuming he wants girls). hahaa.

also, if you need any help figuring out garg ages, hatch dates or any of that, just ask. it can get really confusing with the 1000 year sleep, Avalon time differences, time travel and Timedance issues. for instance, in 1998 Nashville and Bronx will both be 20 years old, so you'd think they hatched in 1978, but neither of them did. Bronx hatched in 978 and who the hell knows when in time Nash hatched. Griff was born the same year as Leo and Una (1898), but because Goliath brought him forward in time, he is now just a little bit younger than the generation born in 1958 (which includes Sora). Broadway is also the same age as the gargs born in 1958, even though he was actually hatched in 958! and Angela in 1998 is about the same age as Broadway, even though they were born centuries apart. furthermore, Angela's siblings on Avalon are going to age a whole lot slower than Angela will, so they are gonna be middle aged when she is dead and dust. i just keep things straight by thinking about how old everyone is in 1998, cuz at that point, only gargs coming and going from Avalon is a problem. everyone else stays in their respective timeline.
lol, still, its crazy!
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 3:48:02 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Maybe I misunderstood this and am repeating a previously considered point, in which case I apologize. That being said, it seems that the Gargs are making MANY more adjustments than first considered. That being the case, it stands to reason that they would change many things in order to survive and adapt and such.

I do not think they would want to give up their "Gargoylehood" by organizing who has what egg and such. I do however wish to point out that while the Gargs who led violent lives in the past still struggle today, the past they thrived as gargoyles would, but with so much more in their way, I think there COULD BE a genetic adaptation to survive.

In places like the ruins of South America and Japan where they might be able to hide out more easily where people are more interested in matters of a spiritual and supernatural manner, they aren't as threatened. But under the nose of New York, which many consider the center of the universe, there COULD BE such an adjustment genetically.

What I am pointing out is simply this, unless Greg and CO find some heirs to the Gargoyles throne... there might be someone later down the road to blaspheme against the canon! I would like to hear it from himself and I would wonder if maybe the female cycle might begin to speed up...
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 3:42:47 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

I just took that quiz. I'd like to know how many of you took it and ended up being Goliath like I did-or were anything but Goliath. I'm no Goliath-as much as I'd like to be. *sigh*
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 3:26:14 pm EST from 70.27.173.206

Garg Quiz: yay! I got Demona! boy,do I have issues..:p

Garg Kids: I could've sworn Greg said something that Gwen was going to be a cross between Angela and Demona but I suppose Gwen having her dad's color is o.k too.

(also,if you look in RitaM's gallery.. you can see some concept pics of Katana too ;))

so let's see.. Broadway will have two sons and a girl,Brook will have a boy and a girl and maybe another child.. If Lex had biological kids I'd wan't him to have two daughters and a son just to shake things up..

about having a Garg physician. I wonder if he'd reveal to the clan that Hudson and Broadway are biologically related ..
starlioness - [starlion3@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 3:25:04 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

oops, sorry I spelled your name wrong, Jurgan. I was looking at Matt's spelling of it ;)

Dudette: I posted the link to laverinth's quiz. Scroll down to one of my recent entries and you should find it.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 2:56:11 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

This is an interesting conversation. I have just recently begun to wrap my mind around the whole clan generation and the clan's children thing (Though it still sometimes utterly confuses me). I think that's so cool. It goes way beyond just the tv show, and I think that's one of the main reasons that this is such a fun and interesting fandom to belong to :)

Both Matt and Jurgen make some interesting points here. But here's a question: According to Jurgen's theory (That lex would be considered a rookery father to Broad and angela's kid, despite not being a biological father to his own), wouldn't that technically make Goliath the rookery father to his own grandchild? Correct me if I'm wrong but if Goliath were still mated to Demona or to another female gargoyle, she would lay an egg around the same time angela lays hers. (I'm leaving Nash and Tachi out of the equation cause it's too confusing).
In many fanfictions (including TGS), It seems that the trio are seen more as "uncles" than "fathers" to the others' children. I myself am more comfortable with this concept, but of course, I am a human ;)

On a related note: Does anyone know if Elisa would be considered a rookery mother to the clans' children? (After she and Goliath have their commitment ceremony, at least). I'm sure she wouldn't consider herself as such, but maybe the gargoyles would, seeing as how they consider her as part of the clan.

Matt: re the DA pictures: No prob. I think the youngest one depicted in both interpretations is Samson, however. They probably posted thos before Greg made the character change. As for Gwen's blonde hair, I'm guessing they thought that Hudson had blonde hair when he was younger (which it was also how it was depicted in TGS), and seeing as how Broadway's hair was blonde in "the mirror," it's not such a stretch.
> "i wonder if the fandom will still be around in 2158 and someone will say, hey, Samson, Delilah and Zafiro are born this year!"> Wow, that's both a facinating and scary thought!

On another note, GregB said: "their life expentancy rate isn't too high since they live such violent lives."
I'm not going to disagree with you, since I remember seeing Greg W. saying something similar. But this always kind of confused me, since biologically speaking this doesn't make much sense. You would think creatures who live such violent lives would have much more children in a lifetime.

*Whew* that was a long post *grin*
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 2:41:02 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Jurgen> Greg has said that generally speaking adults who didn't contribute an egg would be more like "Rookery Uncles" though he said they would never use that terminology. the point is, other gargoyles that didn't contribute an egg to a rookery could still do some parenting, but Greg seems to hint in many answers over the years that only those gargs who parented an egg are truly considered rookery parents. of course, i totally see what you are saying and it makes some sense, and i think Greg might agree with you too. so, ok, i'll take it back, how 'bout this. should Nashville take the role, he could be a rookery father to Gwen and Lance, and should she take the role, Tachi could be a rookery mother to Lance.

i have to agree with Greg B here. i really doubt any of the Garg Clans will be switching from their rookery tradition of raising kids anytime soon. i think part of the beauty of their way is that if something is genetically wrong with a hatchling, all the rookery mothers and fathers step in to support that hatchling, not just the biological parents.
i firmly believe that the rookery tradition is an inherently gargoyle feature. all the Clans do it worldwide, and i think it can explain lot of their behaviors and morphologies. if anyone wants me to elaborate, just ask, but simply put, two things seperate the Gargates from other animal groups and are key to their biology and behavior, their daily hibernation, and their unique reproduction. everything else (their protectiveness, their rookery tradition, their wide variety of forms, colors, etc.) stems from these things, particularly the latter.

ya know, its cool to think that in the Gargoyles universe right now, the Manhattan Clan includes a 28 year old Nashville (equivalent to a 13 year old) and an 8 year old Tachi (equivalent to a 4 year old). and who knows how old Fu-Dog is? Angela and Broadway are going to conceive Artus in just two years or so, and possibly Katana will get pregnant too then. cool to see the next generation on their way. i wonder if the fandom will still be around in 2158 and someone will say, hey, Samson, Delilah and Zafiro are born this year!
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
i'm such a nerd...
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 1:23:31 pm EST from 150.201.53.30

JURGAN> I don't think Greg planned for gargoyles to change their views of parentage. Hell, he said that Angela would lean towards the gargoyle way. Which makes me happy, since a lot of fics have turned gargoyles into humans with wings.

I don't think gargoyles have to worry about disease so much as stone sleep tend to heal them from these things, and their life expentancy rate isn't too high since they live such violent lives.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 12:38:38 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Hi. Just wondering what quiz is being referred to? Thanks x x
Dudette
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 12:06:37 pm EST from 62.252.32.16

Matt said: "in fact, assuming Nash mates and has kids, he will be the rookery father to both Gwen and Lance's generations! Tachi will also be a rookery mother to Lance's generation if she contributes an egg."

Why would that be necessary? I think you're thinking like a human. A gargoyle who doesn't mate and have biological children would still be a rookery parent. For instance, I'm sure Lex will be viewed as a rookery parent to Brooklyn and Broadway's children, and we know he won't contribute biologically to the next generation.

Actually, I started to wonder recently if gargoyle views on parentage might be on the verge of changing. Traditionally, gargoyles never really knew who their biological parents were, and never really thought to try to find out. However, among humans we know there are important health reasons to know as much as possible about one's ancestors. I have a very strong genetic risk of heart disease, and a lesser risk of diabetes. That's just the beginning, of course. There are lots of people who are in danger of serious genetic diseases, and it's impossible to see the warning signs without knowing their family histories. Given that, let's suppose that in the future the gargoyles find a doctor who's interested in working with them and becoming their personal family physician. Someone with around Sevarius's level of talent, but hopefully slightly more ethical. Naturally, one of his first tasks would be to test the gargoyles for any sort of congenital diseases, and find out if genetics has a role to play in their health. After that happened, they would all know exactly who their biological family were. Given that, do you think it would change the way they feel about their family members? Would they feel more strongly attached to the ones they knew were biologically related?

My vote is probably not. I think they are still gargoyles, and having them fixate on their biological heritage would be too human. On the other hand, Angela and Goliath have a very close relationship. While that may be because they were the only parent/child pair there (except for Hudson and each of the trio), it also seems like they felt there was a more personal connection between them. I'm not really sure about Goliath and Angela's relationship, really, and whether it would be any different if Angela weren't his biological child. Someone once asked Greg if Demona would have reacted differently had it been Gabriel, Ophelia, or one of the others who'd come back with Goliath, but Demona's pretty well outside the mainstream of gargoyle behavior, so she's not much of a model. What does anyone else think?
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 12:01:20 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

yikes, sorry for the triple post...

i found this quote from Greg from 1998!!! someone asked him if Katana would lay an egg in 2008 after returning from the timedance:
"A lot of time-jumping going on, but in "Katana" years, she laid the egg that hatch ed into Tachi sixteen years previous. She'd wait at least four years if not longer. (Gargoyle females share a common cycle. Katana was removed from that normal cycle by her time jumping. If she settled down, I wonder if she'd rejoin the normal cycle or not? With Angela, I decided she would. I expect Angela, Sora, Ophelia, Boudicca, Obsidiana and Turquesa to all lay eggs in 2008.)" - Greg W

so, thats not really a yes or a no on a third kid... and anyway, its 8 year old info, might be changed by now with the numerous revamps of the timeline... i'll write it down as something to ask Greg about when the Queue reopens...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:38:59 am EST from 24.182.146.1

sorry for the double post, but...

does anyone know if Brook and Katana end up having a third egg after they get back to Manhattan? i'm refering to a kid born in the 2018 generation (see below). i don't recall Greg ever saying anything about it.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 10:07:05 am EST from 24.182.146.1

PGFish> thanks for the links! those pics are awesome. i really like how Artus turned out in both of them. also interesting to see how much of their grandparent's traits got based down to them (Hudson and Demona's coloring). where'd Gwen's blond hair come from?

JJ Gregarius> excellant thoughts about Brooklyn. he really is a deep and interesting character. i had never thought about his lines (to "dead" Hudson) to really show much about him, but you are exactly right. speaking of "The Price" it was cool to see Goliath come to Brook's side when Brook gets a bit teary.
i wonder though, can you better explain your thoughts on Broadway. you seemed to hint that he was actually more of the outsider in the Trio. like he just tagged along with Brook and Lex.
great thoughts though.

Xanatos> i seem to remember that in "The Journey" Goliath, Brook and Hudson stand around at one point discussing whether they can really trust Xanatos. since i consider this the last real episode, i think its an interesting place to leave off. no one really knows how trustworthy X is these days. Goliath says something about trusting him not to kill them, but will he still try to use them? only time will tell, i suppose.

Speaking of "The Journey", the episode hasn't really been brought up, but it think it really impacts a lot of the topics we've been discussing this week (Xanatos' reform, Broadway's development, Brook's lonliness) in fact i believe when Brook winesses Broadway and Angela getting friendly in the library he quotes Shakespeare with "Parting is such sweet sorrow..." now sure, that had relevance to the scene, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a hint from Greg about Brook's upcoming TimeDance. just a thought.

one more thing about the Clan's kids (see link provided by PGFish) they are all really gonna be strecthed out in ages really, i think i've got this right:

in 1998 Nashville will be 20 (equivalent to 10) and be the same age as Bronx.
Tachi will hatch (0 years old) in 1998.
Artus will hatch in 2018 (if Brook and Katana have a third kid, it'll be in this generation)
Gwen will hatch in 2038.
Lance will hatch in 2058.

so, by the time Lance hatches, Nash will be 80 years old. in fact, assuming Nash mates and has kids, he will be the rookery father to both Gwen and Lance's generations! Tachi will also be a rookery mother to Lance's generation if she contributes an egg.
it is also likely that Delilah will lay an egg in 2018 and 2038. just throwing that in.
the point is, the Trio's kids are gonna be pretty spread out.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 8:47:57 am EST from 24.182.146.1

I got Lexington on that test. Which I'm fine with...he's my favorite. I see a lot of myself in him.

About Xanatos...He may be ruthless, he may be amoral, but he's still human. Xanatos may never be a philanthropist or humanitarian, but I doubt he will ever finish with his scheming. The situation has just gotten more complex, with a lot more factors involved. Still, he's still a human. He still must want to live a happy, comfortable life, though he does enjoy the excitement of some of those adventures. Numerous times he's done stuff simply because he could. With a new family he has more responsibilities and more things to consider other than himself now, but I don't know to what extent or how that has changed him. Besides, if you think that's wrong, well, who's to say that he won't suffer the consequences for his apparent amoral behavior? This is why I'm anticipating the comics so much, we'll get to see how these situations get played out and how these characters get to develop further. XD
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 1:25:54 am EST from 71.57.178.10

Apparently, I'm Puck.

One of my main problems with archetypes is that they treat the world, or in this case the Gargoyles universe, like it's black and white. But it's defined by shades of gray. I can't think of any other show that proved this better than Gargoyles. I know that # said that he was just boiling down, but still, I just don't like to think of them like that. But that's my own choice. Everyone else can do what they wish.

And I'm looking forward to the comic for many reasons, but I just thought of another one: it should be interesting to see how Greg originally wanted to portray Xanatos.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change...
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 1:10:41 am EST from 69.174.1.148

JJ>Not all loners hit everyone of my point, they are just some of the most obvious traits a loner can have. Their are more, and some loner archtypes only take on a few, and some evolve past them.

Now, I will also distinguish right now, that I speak of the loner archtype, not the anti-hero archtype, and though these two types crossover and blend with each other, there still are factors which will seperate the two.

Also, I'm not saying every character falls into perfect archtypes, because that shows good writing, which is the ability for a character to take on more than what their starting basis is. In truth Brooklyn falls closer to a loner of the same type as Hawkeye. Sarcastic, emotional, but dependable when needed.

His archtype is his starting basis, his class type if you will. A place for the character to grow and develop emotionally. But if I were to boil down the 5 humaniod gargoyles at the end of the 66 episodes and show what their archtype personalities were, to me they would come off as:

Goliath: Stoic Leader
Hudson: Wise one
Broadway: Good hearted, loveable one
Lex: Tech guy
Brooklyn: Loner

Notice, I said boil down, so I'm stripping them down to their most basic, primal characters. The traits they show 96% of the time.
#
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 1:02:11 am EST from 66.71.80.73

lol I am Angela... the sugar cookie of the clan!

and i like jurgan's thoughts and i would agree with him some ^.^
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2006 12:00:39 am EST from 12.218.107.237

No way, I can't be Goliath.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:38:31 pm EST from 63.232.248.10

Fox is just as ruthless as her husband is. She's been a mercenary before, She's probably killed people. But that's just theorym we do know she took a woman hostage once and had full intent to ruin her own father.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:35:15 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I don't know about Xanatos. Interesting things are planned for him, and I think a lot of people here expect him to be the same as he's always been. I think this is a kneejerk reaction to TGC. They made a mistake by having Xanatos immediately turn heroic and friendly. Yes, they went too far, but he is going to change some. He just had a son, and a group of his enemies helped him with absolutely no reason to at all. Without a doubt, that would shake his worldview to its foundation. I like the characterization he got in The Gargoyles Saga: at one point, he told Hudson that he wanted to try to do something good because he started thinking about his son, and maybe he didn't want Alex thinking of him as the man who would do anything to anybody to get what he wanted. I think Fox and Alex have helped him reconnect with humanity, and he's also formed new bonds with the gargoyles.

I believe Xanatos started on the road to reform back in Eye of the Beholder, when he discovered how much he loved Fox. That was the first time we ever saw him willing to actually sacrifice for someone else. Near the end, Goliath demands the Eye from Xanatos, and X thinks of it as a trade for Fox. X still thinks in terms of power, not virtue, and thinks that Goliath is interested in exploiting his "weakness" of love. Xanatos and that point hasn't really come to understand altruism. He likely thought of do-gooding as much a suckers' game as revenge. However, given that he was a self-made man who had for years had as much power as he wanted, he probably never expected to need someone to come to his rescue- he could take care of himself. Being placed in a situation where he was helpless and then being saved by another- one of his worst enemies with absolutely nothing to gain from it- had to change his way of looking at the world. He may still be deviously manipulative in getting his way, but I tend to think the aims he goes for will be somewhat more benevolent. He won't be a saint, but I think he'll avoid deliberately hurting people as he has in the past. Bottom line: TGC may have overestimated how much Xanatos would change, but I think some of the people here may be underestimating it.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with. This is an affectation up with which I will not put." -Winston Churchill
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:31:44 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

Patience... all I needed was patience...

Thank you Purplegoldfish, thank you JJ Gregarius... FINALLY it seems like people ACTUALLY read what I typed... good grief... I was screaming at the computer screen...

anyway I need to take that test now brb
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:23:58 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

I feel like chiming in on the Brooklyn discussion. Brooklyn as his subtle qualities that distinguish.

I don't think he fits #'s loner sterotype perfectly. For instance, I don't think Brooklyn makes any effort to hide his heart. When he cares about someone or thinks something's wrong, you will know about it. Just think about the way he handles the problems of other characters.

However, I also think Brooklyn has problems with interacting with others. You almost never see him socialize past the very beginning of the series, and then he socialized mainly with Lex. (Broadway appears to tag along for some reason: an extroverted personality that likes company, even if the company annoys him?)

In fact, his relationship with Maggie mellowed from outright gaining a mate to having some companionship (Remember "I wanted to be your ... friend"?) It was as if he needed to be someone's knight with shining talons. He couldn't just be friends. This is why, I suggest, you almost never see him talk to Elisa, although it is apparent he liked her. Goliath's off on a pedestal. Hudson, Brooklyn cannot relate to, although he wants to ("The Price"). Broadway's too annoying (to Brooklyn's thinking). That leaves Lex, his best friend. It seems once Brooklyn became second-in-command, even that friendship began to cool, leaving Brooklyn... nothing.

Rememebr that Greg Weisman confirmed that Brooklyn had a pretty open personality before the start of the series. The turmoils that shattered Brooklyn's innocence would gradually break his heart, leaving the somewhat depressed gargoyle we remember from Season Two.

That depression, also, is why I can't lump Brooklyn with Raphael. Raphael shows much more anger than Brooklyn, saving his depression for when he is alone.

If I were to think of a character like Brooklyn, I would suggest Holden Caufield from _The Catcher in the Rye_.
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:04:34 pm EST from 64.192.77.98

I got Elisa, which I figured I'd get (namely the store robbery question). Pretty close result, I think.

Noticed in Christine's post about the Grimorum Anthology the suggestion for "con survival". I've only been to one con over the years (ie, one convention a number of times). I'm planning on attending this year's Gathering. Long to short: con survival suggestions?

(yeah, way early, but ya got to get started somewhere)
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 11:02:01 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Kris: At the end of the quiz, there's a button that let's you see all the possible outcomes. The quizmaker put most of the main characters in there-but he didn't put in Hudson! Apparently most people who took it got Goliath...
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:53:29 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I got Matt Bluestone. The quiz said the following...
"4 other people got this result!
This quiz has been taken 179 times.
2% of people had this result."

So I guess I got one of the less common match-ups. Would be interested in knowing just how many of the show's characters were programmed into it.

There're definitely a lot of similarities. As far as his love of conspiracy theories go though, I think he may've started out a little too eager to buy into them at the beginning of the series (after discovering the gargoyles and that the Illuminati were definitely real though, I wouldn't blame him for being open to ANYTHING being true). If there's enough factual evidence to point toward the possibility of a cover-up or existence of something strange being true, I'd definitely give it a look. I try to keep an open mind for the most part...but I also feel that it's good to remain mostly skeptical in order to lessen the chances of being fooled or buying into stuff that may not be worthy of my time or belief.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:47:33 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

The quizzes aren't always accurate, but they're fun. Does anyone else know of other gargoyle quizzes out there?

And I found a couple of the fan pictures of Angela and Broadway's kids:

http://www.deviantart.com/view/7393026/
and
http://www.deviantart.com/view/7504693/
Both of these artist have AWESOME galleries.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:42:26 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I got Xanatos. A little annoyed it referred to him as "reformed". When did that happen? Certainly not in any of the 66 canon episodes.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:25:55 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

As usual with quizes like this, I got Xanatos. No problem with that, he is my favorite charactor after all.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:21:14 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

Matt: Or maybe it knows your inner-most soul ;)
It's weird, I took the quiz again and changed a few answers around (the answers that basically tied for me from the first time), and I got Elisa again lol. Maybe I am more like her than I think.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:17:42 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Hey, folks! Some Gathering-related stuff and reminders:

The deadlines for submissions to the GRIMORUM ARCANORUM ANTHOLOGY are fast approaching! We are looking for stories and art on the theme of the Grimorum, with the winning entries being included in a trade paperback novel available at the Gathering. Deadline for stories is March 31, for art is April 15th.

Full guidelines here: http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

I'm also looking for input on what kind of fan-run panels and workshops you'd like to see. Anything having to do with the fan side of things, from writing and art to costuming and cosplaying, filking, con survival, gaming ... anything! Tell me what you want, and let me know if you'd be interested in volunteering to be on such a panel or host such a workshop. This is YOUR con, so we need YOUR help and input to make it great!

I'd like to start hammering out a rough schedule soon, so please send me your ideas pronto!

E-mail submissions, panel ideas, volunteer offers or any other questions to me at: christine@sabledrake.com
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:02:14 pm EST from 71.112.172.65

I am Macbeth. I have no problem with that.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 9:59:35 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

interesting quiz... i got Puck. i don't think i'm much like at all. i dunno. maybe its just PGFish and i, but if everyone else gets results that don't make much sense, i'd say the quiz is dumb...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 9:46:54 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Matt: That is weird about the dreams. I guess a lot of us garg fans are on the same wavelength hehe.
And I'm interested in the clans' children too. One thing I would like to see in the comic book is what Brooklyn's children will look like (and Katana too). I remember seeing some pretty good interpretations of broadway's and Angela's kids by some people on Deviantart. I don't remember their names, you would have to use the search function.

Crimson Rogue: Sorry if I was brash to you on my last post. I'm just so sick of reading stuff from idiotic fans (not you) who complain about Angela getting with broadway because Brooklyn is better looking, and wants a girl more, and is cooler..ect, ect. But I know that's not what you meant.

I've realized that in many cartoons and shows aimed for a younger audience, we get the tired "roles" of certain characters. "Gargoyles" does portray these roles in the trio:

Brooklyn is the "leader" (of the trio), he's got a street smart attitude, a quick tongue, he's the "cool one"
Broadway is the "fat guy". He loves to eat and is a bit of a goofball.
Lexinton is the "super smart guy" He's a technology savant. And though he doesn't wear glasses like most charaters of this type, he's got big ol' eyes.
So...watching the show when I was younger, I was sure Angela would wind up with Brooklyn..because, well, his type of character usually gets the girl. And I have to say, I was very pleasantly surprised when it didn't turn out that way. And I really appreciate that, while the show does somewhat stereotype the characters, it tends to deviate a lot from our expectations of their particular "roles". It is, and was, certainly a nice change from the same old stuff on tv.
Ok rant finished ;)

Oh, and for anyone interested, I snagged this "which character are you?" quiz from a livejournal post:
http://quizilla.com/users/FoxxLaverinth/quizzes/What%20Gargoyles%20Character%20are%20you%3F%20%20The%20Ultimate%20Quiz
(Sorry the link is so long). It's kind of corny but fun. I got Elisa. I also got her on one of those character rating communities I joined in Livejournal. I was surprised, I didnt' think I had that much in common with her character.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 9:01:10 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Crimson Rouge> what do you mean by the "avalon family"? are you talking about the Third Race? theres more than 6 of them (Oberon, Titania, Puck, Banshee, Anubis, Anansi, Raven, Grandmother, Coyote, Nought, and Odin so far) and Xanatos and family have only encountered 4 of them (Oberon, Titania, Puck, Coyote), unless you count Fox's wearing the Eye of Odin as an encounter, which i don't, or the Coyote robots encounter with Anubis, which i don't count either.
i guess i'm confused, who or what are you talking about?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 8:25:13 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Okay, then I shall comment on why it wouldn't be nice if he became a humanitarian.

You would lose half your story. I'm not saying the other anatagonist of clan are lesser, it's just Xanatos can over shadow them sometimes. He is a man who knows what he wants, and how to get it. If you suddenly restrict him with a moral sense he loses that aspect of himself. If you make a character like Xanatos a hero, you have Bruce Wayne which defeats the purpose since as the commentary on the first DVD stated repeatidly, they did not want to do Batman.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 7:38:50 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Re Xanatos being of Greek descent: I wonder if Odysseus is one of his ancestors. There is a certain similarity in that both are master-tricksters, but also have a strong sense of family feeling.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 7:35:53 pm EST from 4.245.16.24

Matt : '02 was the sixth gathering.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 7:18:21 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

-correction- i forgot that fox's "other man" was involved near the end... and since i only watched one episode of TGC... yea anyway 6/6 known members of the avalon family
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 7:00:07 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Bishansky -> I said wouldn't it be nice... why on earth doesn't ANYONE ever read what I type??

in what dimension does "Wouldn't it be nice if he changed for good" = "He has changed for good"

i took a little offense bc you said no offense intended meaning you were directing it at me.. if i saw the show as black and white, it wouldnt be my favorite cartoon of all time. i dont think it would have been anyone's the fact that greg and co could always keep me guessing is what made it so exciting for me.. of course now i watch it and im like.. why didnt i see that coming??

i think its because i was like i don't know ten years younger...

point being, passion + effort = appreciative audience

i have always admired how bastardly david was. but what can be expected of a man who has had not one, not two, but 5/6 members of the known avalon family directly involved in this one human mortal's life??
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:58:07 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Ya i don't get why people get hung up on Xanatos turning "good". As far as I know, he was amoral, making the concept of being wholly good or evil non-existant for him. Besides, i don't like pigeonholing any of the characters into a simplified image of good or evil. That was the good thing about the show, the characters were portrayed realistically, with imperfections and undesirable qualities. Many villains had very attractive or positive qualities, and the good guys weren't portrayed as strictly only doing good. The episode where Goliath forces Sevarius to come up with a cure for the Mutates is a prime example.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:51:38 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Good grief... this just gets worse and worse in here.

I liked the Gargoyles human forms. Not sure why anyone would think they were ugly... especially with their resemblance to their voice actors being a factor. Broadway is a big boy. That doesn't stop him from being a good guy or a great warrior. Some of us like our men with some extra meat on them. :P

Demonic Lover - <<you see, i go by the words of Demona; despise the race that destroyed your clan, i will have blood for blood!>> ... I'd suggest counseling for that. Maybe some Xanax. Also the gay sterotype about Goliath could have been left out too.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Jayne. You'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut, is there an understanding between us? - Mal, Firefly
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:50:08 pm EST from 71.129.50.91

And wouldn't you know it, Xanatos happens to be of Greek descent.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:47:02 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

You would have to expect to Xanatos to use the Gargoyles down the line. Notice the look he gives as the news footage of the Clocktower explosion and the Gargoyles flying away. That's his look of schemeing, of planning. He invited them back to castle as a nice gesture, but and here comes the cliche that truthfully applies, beware Greeks bareing gifts.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:45:38 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

CR> Um, no. Despite what TGC would have you believe, Xanatos hasn't changed anywhere near as much as people think. It's been my experience that a lot of people think in absolutes when it comes to the characters on this show. Xanatos helped the gargoyles at the end of Hunter's Moon, so he must be a good guy now.

But, as with life, it isn't that simple. And that's what made this show great. It wasn't purely black and white. I always got the feeling, and no offense intended, that a lot of fans didn't quite get that.

Here's what Greg Weisman said on the issue.

"Xanatos went through a protracted, gradual change over the course of 65 episodes. Hopefully, you all thought it was organic and believable. But I never said he had stopped scheming. (Keep in mind, I had nothing to do with how he was portrated in the last twelve episodes of CHRONICLES.) I don't even believe that his goals have changed that much. But his priorities have definitely shifted, plus he gained a great deal of self-knowledge and a clearer view of what matters most in life. First and foremost, his family.
Second, true friends (or at least allies) that you can really count on. He has learned that you have to give if you ever hope to take. (But that doesn't mean he's done taking.) As to his plans, I still think he wants immortality, so that's not over. And I felt he needed to deal with the Illuminati, who are likely to expect things from him that he's not prepared to deliver. Don't expect his methods to change much."

So yeah, he's still a manipulative bastard.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:39:25 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

i went to the 2002 Gathering in Virginia, what number was that? was that the 5th also?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:27:51 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

bishansky! sweet i think we met then.. mind checking http://www.myspace.com/thecrimsonrogue to see if you remember me? @ the time i had longer blonde hair
btw, i think he is past the controlling of things, i think now he wants an empire for his children
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:20:35 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Xanatos is dead by 2198. Yes.

And CR, yep, I did go to the fifth annual Gathering. I've been to every Gathering except the first and fourth.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:01:34 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

In Greg's hypothesised 2198 Gargolyes Universe, young Alex and Lexington have their own corporation... Do we understand that Xanatos is dead? I would presume that he never really becomes immortal, such a thing would be impossible for one who is essentially mortal!
Anonymous
swirly
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 5:59:08 pm EST from 88.108.90.93

hey Bishansky! i rememb er your name somehow.. did you go to gathering 5th anni??

lol matt, YES SIR!! *walks on eggshells*
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 5:39:09 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

<<Wouldn't it be a really big something if Xanatos completely turned around and started being a humanitarian now that the clan has been back in the castle???>>

Ain't going to happen. He's still going to be the same amoral, ruthless, scheming, manipulative son of a bitch we all know and love ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 5:34:58 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

CrimsonRouge> haha, not you silly... though you better watch it. one mistake and you're out, lol. we are pretty ruthless in here! : )
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 5:21:03 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

matt -> i am sorry matt... I will leave. forgive me for being annoying ..

*sulks*

(btw, im jk...)
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:52:07 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

To all the Newbies I addressed last week> again, i want to thank the newbies here who are actively participating in the Comment Room and are being mature, reasonable, interesting individuals.
i hope you guys now see an example of how many newbies act in this room so you can better understand why many of us old regulars are a bit wary of new posters, many turn out to be annoying people who post dumb comments way too often, commonly changing avatars as they go, as i said last week.
as for the particular annoying newbie, i suggest we just ignore him/her and let them make the choice whether to join us as a good newbie or leave the room.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:49:09 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Goliath is my favorite.
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:29:48 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

I honestly think that Goliath is the MOST SEXY of the Mannhattan clan.
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:28:00 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

yeah you're right, Broadway is big and loveable, to Angela i mean, if i was her, i would think and feel the same about him.
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:24:31 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

i mean, really,... what if Goliath was gay? It would be hillarious to see elisa B$tch slap him and run off.
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:22:04 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

TCR>Actually I don't have a problem labling Broadway. He's the good hearted, loveable one like Beast, or Tummi from the Gummi Bears. I had a problem with you labling him slovenly which he is not. As for me being the bab boy loner, no, not really. I'm the opinonated loudmouth.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:20:35 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

what if Goliath was gay?
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:19:28 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

# -> by that arguement, you would be the loner badboy... yet you seem to have such a problem with others... which i think is also a main focus of the whole loner badboy archetype. and considering you were so interested in trying to NOT label Broadway, you had no problem labelling Brooklyn.

Kris -> THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! It seems like you were the first person who actually UNDERSTOOD what I was talking about. I don't know what all I did different, but I am glad it finally worked. Thank you.. over and over, thank you for not adding anything to what I said.

Again, everyone else... sorry for the prior confusion.

Now on a calmer thought... I currently forget who brought up not thinking about the story line for the mutates.. I agree, and it made me just as sad as it did her or him. I only wish there were ways to stop all the crimes against humanity, they were inhuman to the gargoyles and inhuman to the humans by trying to make combative beasts. And I suppose it was just easier to not allow myself to be too attached to the mutates, than to be even more depressified >.<

Lastly on a happier note! Wouldn't it be a really big something if Xanatos completely turned around and started being a humanitarian now that the clan has been back in the castle???
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:10:48 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

you see, i go by the words of Demona; despise the race that destroyed your clan, i will have blood for blood!
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:07:09 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

Look, I am sry for that last comment, you see, i get angered pretty easily.
Demonic lover
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 4:00:40 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

That is not nessecarily true.

Dispite Wolverines' loner tendencies he has proven on more than one occassion in the comics to be a more than capable leader, using team work to over come things.

Raphael has also demostrated leadership qualities, including the arc were he took over as Shredder.

The ability to lead and demostrate team work does not make some one not of the Loner archtype.

The characteristics of a loner archtype in media are:
1. Sarcasm. They usually have an over abbundance of sarcasm, something Brooklyn is no stranger to.
2. Disputing with the current leader. Brooklyn on more than one occasion has disagreed in front of the clan with Goliath.
3. An appearance that comes off as gruff. Unkempt hair, sunglasses, leather jackets or trenchcoats, smoking, stubble, etc, etc, all these things are usually held by a loner.
4. More often than nought, a good heart that try to disguise, usually involving pushing people away. This is one thing that changes, as a lot of loner characters eventually have love intrests.

There are more but I they do not come to the forefront of my mind at the moment.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 2:33:11 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I think that was Battle Beast's point- if Brooklyn really were a loner, he wouldn't have acknowledged the necessity of teamwork. Rather, he would have tried to do everything himself. Yes, Brooklyn sometimes has trouble fitting in and sometimes he goes off half-cocked (look at Temptation especially), but a true loner couldn't possibly become a good leader.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 1:40:40 pm EST from 153.9.83.71

Battle Beast - Being a loner had nothing to do with taking on the Pack in Upgrade. Brooklyn's comment about the Pack being strong enough to capture Goliath and Hudson wasn't about him being scared; rather Brooklyn giving an acknowledgement of what happenned. He knew couldn't take them on on alone. The battle strategy was brilliant. Priority #1 was freeing Goliath, Hudson, Bronx, and Elisa. It would take them time to recover and Brooklyn knew the trio might be able to hold off the Pack momentarily, but in the long run, he would need the entire clan to defeat the Pack.
dph
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:37:30 am EST from 161.31.67.115

IF BROOKLYN WAS A LONER, wouldn't he have saved the gang by himself (From The Pack, "Upgrade,") rather than formulate a plan with Lex an Broad?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 10:16:09 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Kris: I remember reading that they partially modeled the Trio and Hudson's human forms after their voice actors.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change...
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 9:48:12 am EST from 69.174.1.148

i think Lex looks like a frat boy as a human, lol. Broadway looked more like a guy on the football team, and Brook looked more like one of the theater or band guys.
i'm totally stereotyping, i admit it, LOL.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 8:33:13 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Re: Matt's comments about the attractiveness of the clan in human form

I kinda have to agree that Brooklyn got the short end of the stick there (not that it mattered for that one night, or should've mattered if it had been permanent). At least as far as the trio goes. Overall I'd have to say human-Hudson was the least-appealing, simply due to his age and looking fairly battle-worn. I'm glad they were able to get across in the art that Lex looked like a short little man (or more accurately, a teenage/early-20-soemthing guy), instead of a boy. It would've been easy to mistakenly portray him that way. And Broadway was no sight for sore eyes. I like that they made him blonde, though that would've been due to his voice actor's coloration, right? (I know it's Bill F-something...I can never spell it. Faggerbakke?) My top pick would be probably the most typical here--DEMONA easily got the best human form (if the most predictable), and they saved the best for last there. For the guys my pick would be Goliath, the quintessential Conan mold, though I can appreciate aspects of the human trio as well, especially Lex.

Wouldn't classify any of the gargoyles, not the Manhattan clan nor the majority of those we saw around the world and in the past, as ugly (only Iago/Coldsteel is coming to mind at the moment).

Okay, [/superficiality portion of post] already.

# talked about how he figured The Pack TV series would had to have been on for at least six months to a year for it to have accumulated that large of a fanbase/that much media attention. I'm not so sure about that. Did you see how fast LOST and Desperate Housewives caught on in their debut seasons? Especially LOST, which was almost huge before its premiere even. Then again, I don't know what the television landscape was like back in 1994. Did any shows catch on that fast back then, within a matter of a few weeks or a couple months? Was TV even as popular among a great portion of the population in the early `90s as it is today?

Re: #'s comments about Brooklyn being the loner badboy, Wolverine/Gambit/Raphael archetype

I don't really see it. He didn't go off on his own more than once or twice (we haven't "seen" Timedancer yet--it's been pretty much implied or even said by Greg that Brook will get caught up in that unexpectedly, right? It's not that he DECIDES to go off on a time journey, as far as I know). He saw character development in a way that those three other comic book/cartoon characters haven't even gotten close to in hundreds of issues of comics and episodes of various cartoon adaptations. I think it's just the voice that gives him the feel of someone who MIGHT become like those characters.

Forgot to mention this during the mutate discussion last week, but the suggestion that Sevarius most likely killed a bunch of test subjects to get to Fang, Claw, Maggie, and Derek brought a very fitting sense of depressing grimness to that storyline. Brrr. I guess I just never thought much about the backstory on that one. Never gave the mutates much thought at all.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 6:01:13 am EST from 69.17.169.178

Personally I've never really understood anyone would consider Broadway as a bad choice for Angela because of his gut? Their are some human cultures that consider a big gut to be attractive and a status symbol of great importance. So why couldn't Gargoyles have a similar preferance?
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Peace!
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 5:32:23 am EST from 69.54.209.30

You know, it seems like no one who is wonderful or awesome or super could have any faults. I believe that no one is perfect, and those who are closest would always try to improve their faults.

Goliath learning to control his rage with those he protects.
Broadway learning to read.
Brooklyn going on an excursion to find himself.
Lexington not giving up on people and still being willing to give people a
chance.
etc etc etc

I am sorry I didn't make it clear enough that I thought he was the right choice. I am sorry I made it seem that I didnt like Broadway. I am sorry I made it seem like anything other than this clearly ->

As a human male in high school who had been made fun of as a kid for being chubby then again in high school for being skinny seeing a cartoon where the beautiful, kind hearted girl goes for the guy who obviously didn't represent what anyone to that point would have been wanted for the purpose of love and affection, it confused me. Over time, I saw that there was a deepness of further acceptance of the person within. I saw in the cartoon that Broadway was intended to be at least even PARTIALLY slob like, and while he may not be by the time his kids are born, he was for a good time.

Please do not add anything to that. I did not intend to upset or offend anyone if I did. Nor did I intend for this to be bigger than if anyone else thought it was weird when (meaning at the time they first saw it) that she chose him when he had been shown in one light and then all of a sudden there was this new light about him...

Again, it just seems like this got blown up way out of proportions.
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 2:04:04 am EST from 12.218.107.237

While we're talking about genetics, I had some things I wanted to write about gargoyle parentage, but it's late and I have to go to bed, so I'm mainly writing this as a reminder to myself. I'll try to get to it tomorrow.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2006 2:02:25 am EST from 68.58.253.131

The Crimson Rogue: Um, thanks, even though I never really made any point at all. I was just saying that Angela probably likes chocolate a lot. The little comment in parentheses was just to clarify for people who might not remember when she tried it for the first time. But as far as reasons why she might fall in love with Broadway, they say that in the end, the heart wins out over pretty much anything, and he does have a huge heart. Greg comments on it in his ramble for "Deadly Force." It's closer to the bottom, right after the CHARACTERS heading (the link's in my name).

And as far as Brooklyn is concerned, history had someone else in mind for him.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again."
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 11:06:35 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

yeah, i did a search:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?sid=204988&qid=569

so, i was right about Artus and Gwen, but since Samson became Lancelot in the revamp i'm not sure if it stays the same. most likely though is Samson is gonna resemble Goliath a lot then his father would have to resemble Goliath and since thats not so much Artus, i still figure Lancelet will look like Goliath and be Samson's dad.

its kinda neat thinking about all this. in fact, in just two years (2008) Angela is due to lay her first egg (Artus)!
the Manhattan Clan is a Clan of course, but with eggs in a rookery they'll finally be getting back to being a Clan with young, and thats pretty cool. just thinking about Hudson dieing knowing there are egg(s) in the rookery makes me happy. or maybe he'll live long enough to see some of his rookery-grandchildren (besides the Avalon Clan and Angela) hatch. of course, Nashville and Tachi should be around so he'll see them. apparently Nashville will be a kid when Brook and family get back, Tachi will be an egg due to hatch in 1998. so Brook and Katana's last egg will be in the same generation as Artus, hatching in 2018.

sorry to be rambling, i just think the Clan generation dynamic is really interesting.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 10:21:31 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

WOW. that is SOOO weird. i havn't had a Gargoyles dream altely, but YESTERDAY when the room was a bit slow i thought about a dream i had and i was going to ask if anyone else had Gargoyles dreams! wow, thats weird that several of us all cue into the Garg dream thing at once.

the only Garg dream i remember was from a couple years ago. it was basically like watching an episode. it was just a few vsague memories of seeing the Clan at the Clocktower, but the cool things is that it was perhaps 50 years in the future cuz there were several new gargoyles there and the others were older. Hudson wasn't there, but Goliath was, and he was old, i think he was still the leader. i didn't see any of the Trio, but i saw one garg who was obviously either Artus or Lancelot cuz he looked a lot like Goliath, but younger and with Broadway's ears. i also remember there were a couple Beasts, but i didn't see Bronx or Angie either.
the dream doesn't make much sense unless the CLocktower is rebuilt and the Clan moves back there at some point, but it was sooo cool.

Broadway discussion> i'll admit that when Angela first entered the series i knew she'd end up with one of the Trio and i was pretty superficial in who i figured it would be. ironically though, i figured it WOULD be Broadway, just for the wrong reasons. i felt Lex was too short and would make an odd couple with Angela, and i felt Brook's beak would limit their ability to kiss (this is before i knew about gargoyles not really kissing much) so i figured Broadway was most likely.
as i learned more about the series and matured a bit, i realized that even though i had guessed correctly, i was obviously being misguided.

a couple things about Broadway and his attractiveness:
-first off, look at human Broadway in "The Mirror". he is not obese, ugly, slovenly or anything. in fact, i know a lot of people would find him attractive physically. he may be a bit overweight, but its clear he has muscle, moreso then any other garg but Goliath. of the Trio as humans, i find Brook the least attractive, but thats just me.
-as for what gargs find attractive in other gargs physically, i imagine like in any species good health and strength are attractive. and like humans and other species, different individuals might find different things attractive. some gargs may find big horns to be attractive (no jokes, please), others might find a certain build or wing type or even color attractive. it probably varies a lot from gargoyle to gargoyle.
- beyond the physical features i think Broadway has some other attractive qualities. out of the Trio i think he is the most protective, and what could be more attractive to a gargoyle than that? he also clearly is the most sensitive, and i think Angela finds that comforting. i think Boradway's embracement of the new world contrasts well with Angela's naivete, and this too i think she finds attractive.

so, now that i'm a bit older, and hopefully a but wiser, i realize that Broadway was the right choice, and the natural choice, for Angela. to put her with Lex or Brook would've been untrue to the characters.
i think they are a cute couple, and i'll bet their kids will be adorable (has anyone done any art of Artus, Gwen or Lance at any age?).

from what Greg has said and from what i figure:
Artus will carry the Hudson/Broadway body plan, perhaps with Angela/Goliath's coloring.
Gwen will carry the Angela/Demona body plan, perhaps with Broadway's coloring. i think she'll be very pretty,
Lance will inherit Goliath's body plan, and will most likely be Samson's biological dad.

just my thoughts.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 10:02:33 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

DEMONIC LOVER> I suggest you read this link...

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=262
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 9:24:57 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I am jealous of those that can remeber their dreams. I hardly ever.
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 8:14:14 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

*g*Thanks Obed, it is about time. Of course, I hardly remember any of my dreams, so it's likely I dreamt about gargoyles before and don't recall.

Asatira: hehe, I wouldn't tell anyone about gargoyle dreams, other than in places like this. I fear people would think I'm pathetically obsessed...which I am ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 8:05:58 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Oh, I tend to do that whenever I'm particularly into something. I've done it with video games (if you've ever played Eternal Darkness, that is a bad thing to dream about). I remember having dreams when I was constantly watching the show about being a gargoyle and going on patrol. Namely leaping off from the Clock tower or from the Eyrie Building, agreeing with whatever the night's orders were. Kind of vague, but fun.

When I actually told someone about it once, I got a weird look. Guess some people don't get it.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:56:24 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Crimson Rogue>>> There's also always the possibility that the reason why Broadway was shown stuffing his face where the other Gargoyles weren't was because the trend with young fat guys in shows and movies tends to lean toward showing them eat a lot.
JerrBear
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:46:27 pm EST from 68.58.94.32

wow first time to dream about gargoyles after all these years! Well then, it's about time. XD I love dreams...they're great sources of inspiration, and frankly quite entertaining. Here's to many more in the future! XP
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:42:23 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Obed: heh, I thought it was pretty cool that I had a dream about gargoyles, seeing as that was the first time I did in all these years! (Or at least the first time I can remember). Even my little sister has had gargoyle dreams, and she's only seen a few episodes!
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:27:51 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

purplegoldfish: heh, funny you ask about dreams...I just had a gargoyles dream last night. Um, i don't think i should get into it here...my dreams tend to be weird and complicated...but basically i had transformed into a gargoyle and was running for my life for some reason.

Still, i think it's a good sign. I think it's healthy and cool to dream about the things you are interested in. ^ - ^
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:24:58 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Sorry, Crimson Rogue, but I'm going to have to agree with the others here on Broadway. That's kind of a mean generalization to call him a disgusting slob. There's more to being a slob than just eating habits.
And I have to say that the one thing that always annoyed me about the show was that Broadway was the only one ever shown eating-which lead people to believe that he was nothing but an eating machine. ALL the gargoyles ate. Yeah, maybe Broadway enjoys it more, but that doesn't make him a disgusting and stupid oaf. (Besides, Hudson is overweight as well, and we never see him eating, so the weight could be partly genetic.)
Broadway is a very efficient warrior. And he's also kind, and sensitve to other's needs. In a way, I think he's a lot more mature than Brooklyn. I always thought he made a much better match with Angela than Brooklyn does. There's definite chemistry there. And it says a lot about Angela that she goes for the guy that sees her as a person and not just as "OOH, LOOK A FEMALE!!" (Which I think is basically how Brooklyn sees her, in the beginning at least).
Leadership qualities and a perfect physique shouldn't be an issue at all. True love knows no bounds.

Demonic Lover: Okay, why the Heck would Goliath kill the descendants of the Vikings?? They had nothing to do with the massacre. That would make Goliath the VILLAIN. And we already have a perfeclty good villain-Demona.
And if you seriously think that Demona and Goliath should get back together..You obviously haven't been paying much attention to the show. BTW, No one believes you had two cartoon characters stop by your house.

On a totally different note: It's very sad when the Gargoyles pay a visit to your dreams. I remember some snippets of a dream I had last night where Demona and Bronx were standing next to each other and took turns howling at the moon!! Seriously...weird. Has anyone else had any gargoyle dreams that you can remember?
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:15:23 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

well, no, I didn't think it was strange that angela chose broadway. the way it was shown in the series, it wasn't like some random surprise. there were clues and hints before she settled on him. and besides, the characters were so well-developed on that show, i think her choice felt pretty natural.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:09:30 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Obed -> For what other purpose, if not to say he is or at least was at one time slovenly, would the cartoon show him again and again stuffing his face?

And to me the detective work of one episode hardly constitutes intelligence. Also if you remember in that same episode, he was compared to the viking commander who frowned upon books. Now that particular viking seemed MORE concerned with his table manners than even Broadway. What can one conclude then?

This is not an anti gargoyle remark, this is purely the attempt to show that I believe there was a direct choice for Angela to choose Broadway, and I do not think it was for anything other than the remarks already made.

The point was whether or not you gargolites agreed that it was weird she went for him. Mainly when you saw it, because looking back I simply say it was very deep and clever. When I saw it though, it definitely surprised me.
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 7:03:30 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Hm.....Gargoyles of American Idol....I wonder how Simon would take it. He might not want to tell a gargoyle that they were "absolutely dreadful" on the count of how they will take it.

#>DING DING DING, CORRECT, you sure now your Family Guy (but not more then me) ;)

Name The Movie: "I got a dream." "What's your dream?" "To have a dream!"
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:51:40 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

Well...haven't been in here in a while...nothing to add.

I also hate the Goliath artwork from DeviantArt, but at least we're getting a new comic at all! Maybe they're trying to appeal to the "non-fandom" crowd. Or not.

Not much else to add. Gargoyle talent shows aren't my creative forte. Now Gargoyle musical episodes are a different story! (If anyone remembers, I suggested an American Idol-influenced episode.)

But hey, someone suggested that we push Slave Labor to sign two artists on. Why not try to push them to animate their own fan-done short Gargoyles internet cartoons? Just a suggestion.
Lord GargFan
If something is hard, it's not worth doing. -- The Wisdom of Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:43:20 pm EST from 67.185.229.228

Sorry for the double post

It is actually spelled *own*
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:35:48 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

Warcrafter: Atamsk.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:35:31 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Peter Griffin
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:35:11 pm EST from 128.118.246.215

If Demonic Lover says he/she hates his/her own race and is callin us idiots, maybe we should take a vote on banning Demonic Lover.

Name The Character: What cartoon character is known to be so fat that he has his onw gravatational pull? (The answer can be from any cartoon show)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 6:34:34 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

Demonic Lover: if you think humans suck...does that mean you think you suck?
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:50:31 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

I agree, the fact that angela chose him because of his understanding of her shows that he is the most sensitive out of the trio. To me that shows that he's clever since he can pick up on the smaller less obvious details. And in the episode "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", although he didn't know how to read, he certainly gained an appreciation for it by the end of the episode, and ever after that, we were repeatedly shown how dedicated he had become to learning how to read. If he wasn't considered clever before then, well, his intelligence must surely have gained a boost since then. I also agree with the culinary interests. He certainly couldn't be a "slob" if he enganged in that kind of interest, what with all the fine details and care that it takes to cook. I simply cannot call him disgusting, because that definitely means that i would find him repulsive, which i do not. I also wouldn't call him a slob, because to me, a slob is someone who just simply does not care and lets themsleves go. He might be a messy eater, but it doesn't mean he won't clean up after himself. It's a far cry from being labeled a slob.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:48:02 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Adding to that, Goliath should've stayed with Demona. Really, if i were Goliath, i would Destroy all the descendants of the those vikings! I would have blood for blood! Humans suck!
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:46:34 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

LIke soooooooooooo what if that Angela is Demona's daughter. I'm sure thats why you idiot think that Angela should've went for brooklyn because he is more sexy than broadway! let them be!
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:43:14 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

He is clever. His dective skills show that. He may not be intuitive like Lex with technology, but he has certain ability to read an asses things. He has shown to have a calmer head more often than nought. He's less emotionally driven than Brooklyn who is the one who usually acts brashly. As for what that has to do with him not being a slob, he has never shown too many slobbish atributes, well no more than any other Gargoyle in the series, with the exception of the Japenese clan who seem very organized.

Also he is into culinary arts. Usually people into that before neatness, so they do not ruin their meals.
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:41:08 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I am totally telling you the freakin truth! They looked exactly like Goliath and Demona! I am not lying about this! Don't make fun of broadway, you know, There might several broadway fans reading this and you guys are insulting them! I am proud that broadway has a mate like angela, my god, he loves her, okay< Sheesh, Give hima break!
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:40:34 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Did i ever tell you that 2 gargs landed on my roof the night befeore yesterday?
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:35:25 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Obed -> while you are right that he does come from a different century, i do not. and therefore to me, compared to the others who are rarely shown eating, the fact that the show emphasizes his eating is to point to him being a slob. but i guess it is okay since he is a gargoyle? no, he is a wonderful soul! but he has disgusting habits, like we all do. some smoke some pick their noses some do other things... but to me, and to anyone judging fairly, among Broadway's many good qualities, he is still a pig, a slob, an oaf.
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:33:06 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

# -> what does being funny, clever, or brave have to do with not being disgusting?? they arent connected. and i dont recall too many times i found him to be particularly "clever" i would say that as intelligence goes, the gargoyles dont seem to have much, but when it comes to wisdom.. they are truly blessed. that's my main arguement for demona's problems... she was far too bright for her wisdom to allow her to learn from her mistakes
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:29:49 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Demonic Lover: Sorry, but the show was canceled around 10 years ago.

P.S., say hi to Demona for me tonight.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:29:39 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

I wouldn't call him a disgusting slob though...sure he likes to eat, but i wouldn't call him that based on his eating habits alone. i mean, you see the trio tossing around a piece of meat in the first episode. they come from the 10th century. i don't know how much about etiquette they've learned since then (especially since i don't think they've been invited to too many dinner parties, even with Xanatos as their host), but i certainly wouldn't call him a disgusting slob.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:27:02 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

I think a couple of you missed the fact that I said Broadway has the most love in his heart @ show's end. He is disgusting, but that doesnt make him a poor choice, just not the obvious one. Brooklyn is the obvious one because from what I have gathered, Leadership and Honor is what is admirable to a gargoyle, not size or anything else. That was why I said Brooklyn, with obvious leader qualities, was the best bet. Lex and Broadway are clan members, not clan leaders. AND THAT IS NOT AN INSULT. Some people just have different paths.

Of course it isnt to say that the other two couldnt gain leadership qualities in the future
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:26:40 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Why are there no more new episodes?
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:24:13 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Obed -> thanks bud! that's exactly what I was looking for... the whole point was that i think some people, like me, who saw it when he was in highschool and hadnt really learned about this yet, thought she was stupid... and as for him being a slob.. lol he did on more than one occassion leave food hangin from his mouth...

anyway i think it was intentional she chose Broadway from a writer's sense. mainly to continue showing that very same inside is the person point
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:20:52 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Calling Broadway a disgusting slob is wrong.

He's clever, he's funny, he's brave. Brooklyn is the sterotype loner badboy hero in the theme of Wolverine/Gambit/Raphael/etc, etc. He's the guy who girls fall in love if a writer has no real grasp of romance.
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:18:14 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

When i told you guys that i saw a gargoyle on my roof, there was actually 2 of them. They looked excactly like DEmona & Goliath! When i checked on them this morning before school, they were turning into stone, ( I am not typing any BS here! It really happened!) It was so cool!
Demonic lover
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:15:18 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Crimson Rogue: um...first off, i believe angela chose broadway because he was the only one out of the trio that really saw her as a person, and showed real interest in who she was. I don't think looks really came into it. Plus i doubt angela was that shallow.

Secondly...Broadway is far from being dumb, and he's not disgusting. i don't even think he's that fat. he's big, but he's not some slob. besides, obviously, angela is the kind of gargoyle to look past appearances (in fact i think most gargoyles are inclined to be that way), so the fact that he was "fat" probably didn't even come into consideration for her.

It's also a shallow assumption that she was choosing based on looks.

Also, as humans, it's difficult for us to understand what a gargoyle thinks of as attractive or what kind of physical qualities would be most appealing to them. Maybe large beaks are sexy, or webbed wings or really hot. Perhaps a gargoyle's size is a very desired trait.

And yes, the fact that angela chose the "fat" gargoyle is reflective of the overall theme of Gargoyles of looking past outward appearances...which is a message that perhaps went over the heads of some people.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:11:14 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Harvester of Eyes makes an interesting point...

Anyone else find it odd that Angela fell for Broadway? Broadway is kind of disgusting, and rather fat... Brooklyn seemed like the obvious choice yet sure enough.. she chose the big dumb oaf...

I wonder if Greg and CO decided it would be good to teach people to look beyond the outer immediate shell and see someone for their heart. I would say that Brooklyn is the most mature of the trio but that Broadway seems to have the most love in his heart @ show's end.

Any thoughts?
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 4:59:14 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

matt knows what i'm sprayin
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 4:22:24 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

we lovesss the fissshh, my preciouss. ssooo juiccy ssweeet... gollum!
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 3:29:13 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

yea but fish is delicious, that's why people can survive on deserted islands lol
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 3:26:04 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

When Angela tried chocolate for the first time (when Broadway gave her some) she seemed to like that a lot. I also imagine that Avalon probably offered a few more options than fish. The soil of a mystic isle where it's perpetually summer would most likely be able to yield quite an abundance of crops. Of course, they've got no seeds, except from what was already growing there when they arrived.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change...
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 3:20:32 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

i think brooklyn falls in love with sushi :P
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 3:13:04 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

apparently everything EXCEPT pizza...maybe the gargs are more into chili dogs...
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 2:45:08 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Doesn't Broadway like EVERYTHING???
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 2:44:12 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

i need to find where this supposed pizza dislike comes in... lol

Angela's is probably fish... she was raised on it
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 2:43:54 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

ya know, despite the magical beings, mutated people, invisible islands, creatures of myth, rapid growth clones, fantastic technology and unlikely coincidences in Gargoyles, nothing forces me to suspend my disbelief like the statement that ANYONE doesn't like pizza.
to me, thats just not very believable, lol.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 1:34:47 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

According to the Season 1 bible, the Gargoyles (specifically the trio) don't care for pizza. However, I'm not sure if that was to be cannon or more of a metaphor. In essence, despite their bright colors and the fact that they're in New York, these characters should be taken seriously and not be treated like certain sewer dwelling turtles.
IRC Goliath - [goliath1 [at] pacbell [dot] net]
"Heroes in a Half Shell"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 1:16:59 pm EST from 209.234.142.52

Mtt- Re VCRs Heh, I still have 2 Beta Hi Fi VCRs--one of which is 18 years old and still works great. MY other Beta and my VHS are 15 years old. I baby these things(I also don't use them very often anymore, despite owning 100s of video tapes.

Still not sure how a Cat is like a VCR. They don't flash 12:00, Although they might eat video tapes. You could imagine a cat playing with strands of tape like strands of wool. ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 1:11:09 pm EST from 70.27.173.206

If Xanatos had wanted a woman he could control, he would NOT have chosen Fox. And the rest of this discussion about The Pack doing "jobs" for Xanatos is assuming facts not in evidence.

Always struck me that Xanatos was the type who'd solve most problems by throwing obscene amounts of money at them. That's how he got the castle on top of his skyscraper, after all.

135 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Los Angeles, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"I've always said that cash, cash, cash can do anything well." - Genesis, "Get 'em Out by Friday"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 12:56:03 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

Todd> true, but it sure seems Hudson likes 'em
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 10:06:01 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Well, I don't know what Goliath's favorite food is, but I somehow doubt that he's too fond of banana cream pies these days. :)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 8:41:25 am EST from 4.245.21.0

What do you think every character's favorite food is??

Broadway's fave is jalepenos lol
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 5:05:52 am EST from 12.218.107.237

Greg>True, but you forget his obession with control. Catch the look he gives Fox when she says she's been talking to a doctor, and that she thought she had total him. It is not only a look of concern but of being upset of not having the information. I still believe he would desire first hand info over a recommendation whenever possible. So I would say at least one to three jobs, to make sure they're are a functional and capable team.
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 1:09:31 am EST from 66.71.80.73

Kythera: That's understandable. The logistics of getting a bunch of people geared together for an MMO LAN party...ya that would be a big undertaking. I wasn't really suggesting MMO's, but the point you bring up about the games being Gargoyles related makes it clear to me...also makes more sense. ^ - ^ *sigh* if only there were a new Gargoyles video game...
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 1:09:10 am EST from 71.57.178.10

Obed-- True, MMOs involve a lot of people and are therefore to some extent social games, but generally, all of the players involved are sitting in their own homes behind their own computers. People have, in the past, brought consoles to the Gathering and had their own small gaming parties in their own rooms. (Though I think we may have had some video games going in the con suite at some point in 2001 when someone brought their own PS2 or XBOX, anyone else remember?) But the Gathering is VERY small, and most likely we will not have the resources or facilities to set up an entire LAN party for a group of people to play an MMO during the con. Even then, you need to have enough people who already have their own accounts for whichever MMO was set up.

I don't know that scheduled video gaming would fit well into a Gathering schedule anyway, since there really aren't any Gargoyles-related video games since the Sega Genesis phased out. ^_^; The old-fashioned pencil & paper gaming that goes on is usually Gargoyles-related in some way. Goodness knows I still have Kythera's character sheet from the session Christine Morgan ran at '99. Good times!
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 12:49:37 am EST from 24.126.8.44

I just heard some good news today. It turns out that my dad's best friend Jerry has an interview with Disney tomorrow in which he will be doing voice overs for Disney characters. Me and my dad are wishing him luck. Who knows, maybe if Gargoyles ever returns back on the air, he might be the voice of a new character on the show.

Joke> If none of you got the answer to my joke (or if nobody read that comment) the answer was pause/paws

Since I just made another comment, it's time for some FUN!!!!!

You Might Be: IF THE ONLY PIECE OF JEWELERY YOU WEAR IS THE HOUSE ARREST PIECE ON YOUR LEG, YOU MIGHT BE A REDNECK.
(Hopefully this doesn't tick anyone off)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 12:15:23 am EST from 69.234.8.165

Demonic Lover> how 'bout this, i won't say you are making it up, i'll just say i believe you a little bit less than you believe yourself.

WHAT DOES A CAT AND A VCR HAVE IN COMMON?>
umm, you can find both for $5 at a garage sale?
or, umm, neither of them work very well?
or, maybe its that they both eventually die on you...
(i was pissed when my last (as in final) VCR died taking my original Star Wars tape with it...)
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2006 12:09:44 am EST from 24.182.146.1

I consider this to be the first real creativity demon I've ever had.

I got to thinking at work yesterday that in the gargoyles universe, if Demona had never had that encounter with Gillecomgain in 10th Century Scotland, I don't think history would really be too different. We saw in the "Avalon" Three-Parter that the Weird Sisters had been advised by the Archmage to sort of give Demona and MacBeth a small push towards a certain destiny. They happened to use Gillecomgain as a suggestion to Demona that she should be at Castle Moray at certain times. If they hadn't had him, I'm sure they would have been able to find something else. I can't say offhand what that might have been, but they're immortal. They've been around. Also, the power struggle within the Scottish clans would likely have gone on all the same. If Duncan didn't have Gillecomgain to do his more underhanded work, he'd likely have found someone else. That also brings me to the reasons for hunting gargoyles. Gillecomgain was motivated out of personal vendetta, while Duncan and his son were motivated by politics. Even without the mask, that reasoning would probably still be the same.

Granted, I'm glad that Demona did have that encounter (and especially love the fact that to her, the act of slashing a kid in the face was like swatting an insect- not even worth remembering), as the mask is a very cool symbol. But I'm just saying that if hadn't happened, the course of history might have been altered slightly, but not much.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change...
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 10:35:48 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

And I think Xanatos would trust Fox's judgement on who to bring aboard. He sees her as an equal.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 8:38:28 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

It doesn't matter if they knew who they worked for him or not, he still signed the paychecks. The teamwork and familiarity they showed had to have time develop. I would give an estimate of a year to two years of working together, including time on the TV show. The TV show had to be around for a year to 6 months, giving the level of popularity it held. It could've been around shorter or longer, but the range of 6 months to year is a safe guess, given the fickle nature of television watchers. Xanatos got them together as team, which as I guessed would've been about two years before their appearance in the episode. I am theorizing he did the tv show for his girlfriend as I would believe at the time she was also probably doing mercenary work. They actual people probably came at a request from Fox to Xanatos, but Xanatos probably would've wanted some jobs done at his request to verify their skills, this going along with his control psychosis. Now I'm not suggesting he ordered them to go kill someone, he might, he might not have, but at least he would've had them do something, and pay for their mercenary work.
#
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 8:23:34 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

They didn't even know they worked for Xanatos. What we know is it started with Fox, whom he was already dating, and they put the show together, and he built the team around her.

I'm sure Fox did the recruiting, so we don't know if they did jobs for him as independents before that.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 8:05:18 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Pack were mercenaries on his pay roll before he made them TV stars. It never said how long before their debut episode were they together, but it was said he got them together in the first place.
#
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 8:02:23 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Xanatos doesn't have mercenaries on his pay roll. He does have the Xanatos Corporate Guards who will often take on unique assignments as commandos. I'm sure they get a decent paycheck. Probably a flat yearly fee, since these guys aren't exactly rent-a-cops.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 8:00:21 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Query: What is the payrate for a mercanary in Xanatos' employment? Do they get more when they have to deal with things of an "abnormal" persuassion?
#
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 7:50:45 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

PATRICK: Re your list of crimes that the gargoyles would never bother intervening in:

[6. Agravated avian abuse (pigeon kicking)]

The trio might even decide to join in if they came across that.

[5. "Foot-long" hotdogs that measure only ten inches]

Actually, Broadway would probably object strongly to that. :)

[4. Subway seat hogging]

Actually, the gargoyles could solve that problem by just showing up on the subway - after that, almost every seat in sight there will be empty in a hurry. :)

[3. Violation of Section K9-2: failure to pooper scoop]

I don't even want to know how Bronx might get involved in that.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 6:51:29 pm EST from 4.245.17.191

No prob Demonic lover, we all believe ya.............right?

Everyone, to make this CR even more fun, from now on (or most of the time) when I make a comment here, I will also post something extra just for fun, and I start today.

JOKE: (something that should be easy) WHAT DOES A CAT AND A VCR HAVE IN COMMON?
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 6:45:57 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

please don't say that i am lying.
Demonic lover
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 6:31:26 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

hey, i'm back! Did i miss anything? A real gargoyle just landed on my roof last night! I am not kidding around about this!
Demonic lover
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 6:30:21 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Gore - If you're out there, please e-mail me.
Greg Weisman
Greg Weisman
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 5:52:54 pm EST from 72.25.64.98

PREVIOUSLY, IN THE STATION 8 COMMENT ROOM...

2003, three years ago this week>
Wingless was 1st!
somewhat busy week. some topics we discussed were the canon-status of TGC and the different versions of the Steel Clan, but the main topic was cartoons and animation in general. too many different genres and series were mentioned to review here, but we certainly heard and talked about the good, the bad and the ugly in cartoons both past and present. everything from South Park and Family Guy to Transformers and TMNT. it was kinda funny when Pyro X brought up Family Guy's cancellation and said "There is a petition to get the show back on; it has 98,000 names or some such; it probably won't work." which it of course did.
fun week, everyone i can think of posted, lots of different posters, not just the average dozen or two we have today plus lurkers.
Quote: "Okay I'm out of ranting juice." - Silverbolt

2004, two years ago this week>
Nickerous was 1st!
another busy week. started out with a short discussion about Greg W reading (or rather not reading) fanfic, but quickly picked up into a larger discussion about the Janet Jackson-Superbowl incident. Greg W ended up stopping by to tell us he'd be doing a Q&A in the chat room, a rare treat, and much of the week's discussions focused around the chat and things Greg said in it, including (but not limited to) the Lost Race, Brook's relationship with humans and, ironically, given last week discussion, the Mutates, Derek/Talon in particular. a lot of talk was about Derek's legal status and topics concerning his family and relationship to Elisa.
Quote: "Derek, Elisa, and revenge: I think the fact that know one wants the government vivisecting Derek had alot to do with the not going to the cops thing." -CKayote

2005, one year ago this week>
Alex Garg was 1st!
this was a very busy week in the CR. started out slow with a brief discussion on the Hakon/Wolf connection, but picked up when Greg W put out his "Future Tense" ramble. most of the posts ended up being focused on how old we were when Gargoyles first aired after someone mentioned their age at said time. many, many people posted what their ages were in 1994, and in a way it was kinda shocking. some people you had thought were older or younger were not. we had a pretty wide range, something like toddlers to early 30s. Enigma helpfully averaged the ages of everyone who posted their age in 1994 and came up with about 15yrs, 4 months. definitly a fun and interesting conversation. it may have continued into the next week, we'll have to wait and see (unless of course you want to go check the archives yourself, which is fine, but no spoilers!).
Quote: "Wow ... I feel very, very old now ..." -Christine
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 5:22:23 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Purplegoldfish -> Thanks ^.^ I like silly things like that but then I am also a big anime fan... So much so that in high school I got brought into this group of Ranma 1/2 addicts and we formed our own "club" sort of. We got together and did cook outs, played games, watched anime, etc in our characters roles ^.^ it was awesome! here is my list for the talent show I would like to see, it may be corny, but meh!

Goliath - Feats of Strength
Elisa - Accurate shooting
David + Fox - Duet of "I can show you the world"
Brooklyn - Break dancing exhibition
Lexington - Juggling
Broadway - Eating contest with the Yankees (for charity)
Hudson + Bronx - Tricks and Training
Angela - Fashion show
Demona + Macbeth - (your idea was fantastic about the death thingie... here is what I had before that nugget of humorous gold) Staged combat exhibition
Owen/Puck - 10- minute Shakespeare doing Midsummernight's Dream it would be a comedy thing where they skip all the fluff and get to the meat and potatoes.
The Weird Sisters - Magic Show
It would all end with a costume ball where the audience voted by saying who they would prefer to dance with ^.^

I am quite strange :P
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 2:50:02 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

LOL Patrick! I love that top ten list! "$8 for a Big Mac and small fries in Midtown"-I hear ya!

Talent show: (This was a great idea Crimson Rogue!) I changed my mind about Brooklyn and Lex.
Broolyn will preform Amazing Aerial motorcycle stunts!
Lex will crash a helicopter and then walk away unscathed!

And Owen will do stand-up comedy. I can just picture this scene:
Owen attempts to tell a joke, but all we hear is silence from the audience. Crickets chirp. There's a long pregnant pause. Without a word or a flinch, Owen extends his arm, drops the microphone, turns, and exits stage left. ;)

Blaise: BTW, I love your episode reviews you wrote to ASK GREG.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 1:41:38 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Patrick: You know there's several video games that can be just as social and engaging as a tabletop RPG. You mentioned a couple typical MMORPG's, but there are some very entertaining console video games that would do very well with a lot of people participating. I was at a party a couple weeks ago, and the main entertainment we had there was a PS2. Of course, the games we were playing were things like Karaoke Revolution and DDR, but we also had some fighting games as well. There's also good ol' SSB Melee XD. It can be just as social and fun and an alternative to RPing, since many people can play and also join in at any time. And I've had experiences where even one-player games have been a social occasion (though I admit it was with a much smaller group).

I've never been to a Gathering before (this year will be my first ^ - ^), so I don't know if they've ever had games like that. I think it'd be cool if things like that were included, assuming they haven't been tried before.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 12:55:04 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Top Ten NYC Daily Crimes We'll Never See the Gargoyles Intervene In:

10. Insider trading
9. Expired parking meter
8. Jaywalking
7. Yankee ticket scalping
6. Agravated avian abuse (pigeon kicking)
5. "Foot-long" hotdogs that measure only ten inches
4. Subway seat hogging
3. Violation of Section K9-2: failure to pooper scoop
2. $8 for a Big Mac and small fries in Midtown
1. Donald Trump's hairpiece

:: flings index card away ::
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"Thankyaveramuch!" - Elvis Presley
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 12:36:58 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

Blaise> you did come to mind when i was thinking of absent regulars, but i didn't list you among the examples cuz you've posted much more recently then some others and i figured you were lurking cuz i noticed your submissions to Ask Greg not long ago.

as for Gargs fighting everyday crime, i've often wondered a lot about this too, particularly during Upgrade when the Trio were boasting about how many crimes they've foiled this month. "three muggings and an armed robbery... just have to know where to look" priceless. it was interesting hearing Lex favor speed and Boradway favor stability, i'm sure they "hunt" quite differently. while i think all three of them are smart and strong, i think Brook is the only one who combines the two attributes effectively. Lex seems to rush in using speed, Broadway seems to rely more on brute strength and intimidation (if found his attack on the mugger in Deadly Force pretty terrifying.) anyway, the gargs seem to usually be out in pairs, so i'm sure there is an interesting mix. and notice how Goliath usually pairs with Hudson or Brook (Long Way to..., Double Jeopardy, City of Stone, Vendetas, etc), though he took Lex a couple times (High Noon)
maybe one day someone can animate a "crime reel" with just different attempted ordinary crimes twarted by the Clan.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 9:04:22 am EST from 24.182.146.1

By "gaming" we mean good old fashioned tabletop RPGs, where real people get together in a real place for some face-to-face gaming. As opposed to "video games", which for the most part are played in isolation even when they are of the interactive variety, like WoW and CoH. Going with the general theme of a fan convention, the idea is to have social activities, not a room full of people staring silently at T.V. screens.

Talent Show Predictions: Elisa shows off her mad skills with handcuffs and shackles (as seen in "Double Jeopardy") by doing a Houdini-like escape artist routine. Fox and Angela are her lovely assistants. Later on in the show, Fox does a complex martial arts demonstration, and Angela wows everyone with some hard-jamming four-fingered piano playing.

Time to make the donuts.

136 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Los Angeles, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"At least I have chicken." - Leeroy Jenkins
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 7:57:09 am EST from 24.106.128.24

It's late, I am awake, and I have nothing to do.

Hello and good morning everyone when you get this.

I hope you have / are having a great day!
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 5:43:49 am EST from 12.218.107.237

Querey: Greg Guler's design of Abe Sapien for Hellboy animated, improvement on the original Mignolia's original design, a tribute to Mignolia's design, or a case of "I hope I don't screw this up too much"?
#
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 4:51:04 am EST from 66.71.80.73

Warcrafter-- Uh, you're joking, right? "Gamer" still applies to a lot of diffrent kinds of gaming, regardless of what's currently the most popular trend... So says this pen & paper/video gamer, anyway. ^_-
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 2:31:07 am EST from 24.126.8.44

Greg Bishansky> I got a question. I looked at the flyer for the gathering (which looks excellent) and near the top where it says what will be happening at the gathering it says gaming. By gaming, do you mean "video games"? Cause nowadays, that's what it stands for. I should now, I'm a gamer.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 1:57:34 am EST from 69.234.8.165

If Gargoyles stays on track as a June release (as was suggested in one of the press releases I believe, and might be on Slave Labor Graphics' website as well), it'll be listed in the April issue of Previews. So you can (and should, if possible, to support the book as much as possible) pre-order the first issue of the comic in April if all goes well. Some comic shops give out the Previews catalogue for free, especially to members, and some sell them for around $5.00 (that's Canadian, so like $2.99 US maybe). I'm sure someone in here will remind everyone else when it's available for pick-up.

Re: The comments about the Gargoyles comic art and how it'll probably be improved in the actual content of the book/finished product

One strong possibility that has me not worrying too much about how the art will turn out is that Greg Weisman probably has enough control over this project that he gets to sign off on all the designs. I'm not sure how the auditioning process went, but once the penciler was picked I bet he had to submit a number of practice sketches and finished works on some of the characters before being given the go-ahead to begin actual work on the book based on the script he got and any specific notes Greg left for him. I just feel confident that Greg isn't gonna let loose a comic where there's any doubt that the overall fandom will be happy with it. You rarely please everyone, but I think the intention would still be to make the target demographic happy while freshening up the look a LITTLE bit to attract lots of new readers, giving it a bit more detail than time and budget allowed in the TV series.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 1:28:32 am EST from 69.17.169.178

****A figure steps out of the shadows of the Comment Room and addresses those assembled.**** Hello, all! It's been awhile.

MATT> Some of the "old guard" are still around. In my case, I just lurk more than post now. Why? I can't really say. Usually it's feeling I can't contribute to a discussion in any special way or being too busy (RL is tough, especially when it's a daily struggle to keep the bills paid--which also means I have yet to purchase the new DVD). But, barely a day goes by without me reading the ol' Comment Room, so I've kept up on the news. And I didn't miss the opportunity to add my rambles before ASK GREG closed up again.

While I'm here...
TALENT SHOW> Well, let's make a little list:
Goliath--The dude could probably get away with reading a telephone book. Otherwise, maybe some heavy lifting....
Elisa--Trick shots, maybe.
Broadway--Well, the obvious would be eating his weight in foodstuffs, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say Bogie impersonations or something similar.
Brooklyn--It's hard to showcase leadership in a talent show, so let's just have him play electric guitar or fence or something. Heck, he could eat a foot-long hotdog lengthwise.
Lexington--Disassemble and then reassemble and program a VCR...no, make that 2 VCRs: both VHS and Beta.
Angela--I dunno, dance maybe.
Hudson--Like leadership, tracking is hard to showcase. Hudson would probably just walk off the stage and into the audience to watch the show.
Xanatos--He would stand centerstage and reveal that the talent show was in actuality just "Phase One" of his plan to [insert plot here].

Some thoughts of my own from this weekend:
GARGOYLES AS CRIME FIGHTERS> Just curious, but how often did we actually see the gargs taking out "normal" bad guys (muggers and the like). I mean, we've seen them fighting "the mob" but the only "independent" criminals we've seen them take down are the gang of three that keep on popping up. Naturally, normal crooks would be among their least interesting encounters, but I would like to see more of how the gargs do it. How they "hunt." It would be cool to see them stalk and pounce, and compare and contrast any difference in styles the individual gargs may display.
Just my random thoughts.

I think I had some more I wanted to say, but right now my brain's starting to shutdown, so I'll just sign off. Hey, maybe I'll actually get up enough gumption to comment again later on in the week. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise takes a flying leap out the window and falls...up. Straight up into the sky and out of sight.****
Blaise
"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life
posted @ Tue, Feb 7, 2006 1:02:11 am EST from 209.178.136.165

And I agree with you newsarama is a place I advoid.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:37:24 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Re-read what I wrote please. I wasn't endorsing newsarama, just using it as an example of where you see writers and artists get hanged.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:25:43 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I don't like Newsrama, I prefer Uncannyxmen.net, where it's defense of the old man Claremont over the new writers. Hedgecock has better art for other projects, 15 minutes comes to mind, but this is pretty much the first I've seen of Evans. His DA account does have better colouring so, I assume that when they actully start doing panels, and breakdowns, it'll look much better than that. And hopefully they'll figure out what is coming out of his eyes by then.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:16:52 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the Goliath pic either, but I've seen worse. I actually think it looks better than the Marvel Comics illustrations. Their Goliath was way too rectangular.

And I'm liking this talent show idea. Coyote could do something with Jackal and Hyena. Maybe they could combine into some sort of Voltron-type thing. It's too bad Puck's got that restriction, unless his powers don't include stand-up comedy, in which case he might be able to get away with MCing.

Matt: If anything, I think Demona's trick would be to pull out a lasergun and mow down the humans in the first few rows. But I'd still pay money to see that, so long as I was sitting near the exit.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Violence never solves anything... but it sure is fun!" -From Gandhi's "unabridged" autobiography.
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:11:38 pm EST from 69.174.1.148

No one here is hanging them. Keep in mind, we all want this book to be good. We know with Greg writing it, it will be awesome storywise, but the art has to be good too. The average new reader thumbs through a comic looking at the art before they buy it, then they read it.

Seriously, you want to see comic book writers and artists get hanged, check out the message boards at newsarama.

But like Jen said, that was a very rough early piece. Hopefully, we'll see something more recent and better in the near future.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:05:09 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I say give him at least a sample page. All that has been seen is a throw away sketch of Goliath. We can expect slightly better when he works in panels and is actually trying to tell sequential art. I am not ready to hang Hedgecock and Evans yet.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 10:48:25 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Jen-- I'm with you on the art. I think I need to poke Karine and Steph with sticks and have us SERIOUSLY put together a pitch for when the current artists' contracts are up...
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 10:28:56 pm EST from 24.126.8.44

Patrick already posted the new guest list, but here's a new Gathering post anyway.

Starting a second thread, so no one has trouble navigating for new info.

The Gathering staff is delighted to announce the addition of six new
members of the "Gargoyles" voice cast, staff and crew to the guest
roster for the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles. Joining us in
June, schedule permitting, will be:

Elisa Gabrielli - voice of "Obsidiana"
Brynne Chandler - writer / story editor
Victor Cook - storyboard artist
Bob Kline - producer / director / development artist
Lydia Marano - writer
Dennis Woodyard - producer / director

To view the full guest list, please visit:
http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/guests.html

There will be many unique opportunities to mingle with the guests.
Some will be sign-up events, with first-come, first-serve
availability. All will require you to be a member of Gathering of the
Gargoyles to participate. Don't miss out. Register now!

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

HOTEL INFORMATION:

Several questions have been received regarding where the convention
will take place. The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles will be
held at:

The Hyatt Valencia
24500 Town Center Drive
Valencia, California 91355
Telephone: 661-799-1234
Toll Free: 1-800-233-1234

The Hyatt Valencia is offering a block rate of $129 per night (double
occupancy) to all attendees who call for reservations by May 22, 2006.
Please mention that you are with "The Gathering of the Gargoyles"
when calling to receive this special rate. For more information,
please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/hotel.html

FAN PANELISTS WANTED:

Do you have an idea for a panel, workshop, or other event that you
would like to host at the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles? If
so, we need to hear from you! Timeslots are still available in our
schedule, so contact us with your ideas at:
staff@gatheringofthegargoyles.com

HELP PROMOTE THE GATHERING:

We don't want a single "Gargoyles" fan to be unaware of The Gathering
2006, and we're looking for a few good fans to help us spread the
word! If you will be attending a convention in the near future,
please let us know about it and take a few copies our flyer along. To
download the flyer, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/flyers/gathering-flyer.pdf

If you have a web site, Livejournal, or regularly post to message
boards, there's another way you can help! Just choose a banner
graphic or link button from our web site, download it, and add it to
your web page, online journal, or message board signature line. For
details, visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/links.html

DATES TO REMEMBER:

March 31, 2006 - The last day to take advantage of the current
membership rates of $45.00 for adults and $25.00 for children ages 10
through 14 (accompanied by an adult).

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

March 31, 2006 - Deadline for story entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum
Anthology Contest.
April 15, 2006 - Deadline for art entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum
Anthology Contest.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

May 22, 2006 - Deadline for hotel reservations at the Hyatt Valencia
to receive the Gathering's discounted block rate.

June 3, 2006 - Deadline for Art Show Registration

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/art-show.html

June 23 - 25, 2006 - The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles.

Questions? Comments? Contact us at: staff@gatheringofthegargoyles.com

- The Gathering 2006 Staff
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 9:56:39 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Confirmed. Dustin Evans is the colorist for the book.

Good News is, I hear the current work looks good and this was an early rough sketch. I still would have rather seen it penciled by Karine, inked by Kythera and colored by Steph Lostimolo. ::shrugs::
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Jayne. You'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut, is there an understanding between us? - Mal, Firefly
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 8:34:47 pm EST from 71.129.50.91

Yes, the comic book will be in color. It's been confirmed in a few places.

JEN> THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Greg Bishansky
Oldbies Untie! I mean, unite! ;)
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:57:40 pm EST from 66.192.104.10

Demon>It has been confirmed it as full colour book. I would email Hedgecock myself, but I'm not sure what I would ask him about it.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:57:38 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Sorry for the double post

*if he even is working on the book.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:56:15 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I was showing my fiance the Goliath picture and he brought up something I hadn't thought of.

Do we actually if the "Gargoyles" comic itself will be in color? If there hasn't been confirmation to the contrary, I'm guessing not. Slave Labor is a pretty small publisher and they really don't publish anything I know of in color, including their high profile books and the "Haunted Mansion" comic. This guy could still be the colorist for the cover. But it may well be that the comic itself is black and white.

PurpleGoldfish> I actually read a lot of comics, both superhero and other genres, and I'm no big fan of this piece either. Whether you exaggerate it or not, bad anatomy is still bad anatomy. But as I said, this looks like a VERY quick sketch that was colored and expanded upon to make it look more finished.
Demonskrye
Art critic
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:56:02 pm EST from 209.6.250.47

If I knew that sketch would upset so many people, I would've never brought it to anyone's attention. SLG has the previews up for Tron, and looks crisp beyond belief.

It's an independent company so they have to take who they can get, and Hedgecock isn't bad, he has some talent maybe not at the level people would want Gargoyles at but his other books are always crisp. Now as for Dusty, the colourist. Other things in his gallery are much better, and it has not been confirmed if he even is.

Like everyone is assuming we can take this as just Hedgecock doing a sketch and then having his friend do the colouring. Least till we get confirmation from David or Dusty on if he has a part in the new book.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:55:17 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I'm just going to be blunt about that artwork. ...Goliath looks like he's made out of potatoes and my 9 year old daughter can color better than that. :P

I think I'm a bit spoiled by all the amazing artists we have in this fandom... and that penciling job just doesn't even come close to some of them. It's really a shame. I'm not even going to discuss that coloring, because there's no way in hell I'd accept that as someone who could get PAID to do color work. Even I'm better than that.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Jayne. You'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut, is there an understanding between us? - Mal, Firefly
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:45:34 pm EST from 71.129.50.91

And then there are those of us who've been here for nine years ;)

Oldbies Untie! I mean, unite! ;)

Sigh, the more I look at that Goliath sketch, the more I dislike it. I'm hoping that was an early practice sketch and he's gotten better at drawing Goliath (and any other characters) since then.
Greg Bishansky
Oldbies Untie! I mean, unite! ;)
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:43:46 pm EST from 66.192.104.10

Talent show:Halycon Renard will attempt to jump thirty flaming school buses in his wheel chair.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:41:23 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Crimson Rogue: Thanks :). Sorry, I don't have a myspace account. I do go on Livejournal, but I hardly ever post. I'm so lazy when it comes to the blogging communities
I think Lex would make a cute juggling clown ;)

Patrick: Copy and paste this link for the Goliath pic:
http://www.deviantart.com/view/21138941/

Matt: Wow, you've been posting for five years? I'm sorry that a lot of the regulars here have disappeared. We could have a lot more interesting discussions with more people.

Talent show: Macbeth and Demona's "Amazing Death Trick!" LOL! They could do a magic act-Where "Macbeth the Magnificent" will cut his lovely assistant "Dominique" in half! Hehe, or, should it be the other way around? ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:16:57 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Patrick> That's my personal gallery your were browsing. You want this link http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21138941/
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:15:00 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Sorry that I haven't said anything lately; I simply haven't had much to say about the last couple of days' posts.

And I'd like to see Vashkoda and Aris pop by here again, too.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:04:03 pm EST from 4.244.212.243

I think the drawing's kinda shakey, with some real glaring anatomy "wtf"s.. and I actually like Marvel's version a lot better. This seems more like just a concept type sketch to get the feel of things.
I honestly hope that's the case, and the comic doesn't look like that. o.O

The coloring.. just doesn't wow me in any way at all. And like people have said.. some of it doesn't make sense. It seems either real simple, or real hastily done.
There's some nicer stuff in that guy's gallery, though.
Y2Hecate - [y2hecate@aol.com]
~Nikki/Hecate~
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:40:29 pm EST from 216.145.71.5

lol matt yay!!! i am glad you jumped into the talent show.. of course david would try to take over the world
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:31:47 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

somehow i knew someone was gonna say something about D&D when the word dexterity came up. les is dex, LOL

Talent show> Macbeth and Demona could perform their Amazing Death Trick!

knowing Jackal and Hyena's endless upgrade's i'm sure they could contribute a lot to the talent show.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:29:21 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Purplegoldfish -> you have made me smile every time i have read your posts. great work! kudos :D do you have myspace? would you like to add me? so you think lex would be a clown? you know clowns scare me... so im goin with juggler

bronx could do tricks and stunts
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:12:54 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Hmm, I think Lex would make a good clown ;). Angela and Broadway could do a swing dance number, or maybe perform a Shakespearean sonnet. Hudson could do sword swallowing, and Brooklyn could...uh, Riverdance! Lol ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:10:03 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Where is the Goliath picture in question anyway? All I see are chibis... lots and LOTS of chibis. ZOMG, the Pack should NOT look that cute.
Patrick Toman - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"With great power comes high electric bills."
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:09:58 pm EST from 70.227.79.36

Matt -> dood!! laws of DnD physics!!

Small = +Dex
Large = +Str

lex is more dex than goliath
goliath is more str than lex

DUH!!! ^.^
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:02:25 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

how do you know Lex has such great dexterity?

just to add something to my previous post. i miss Lord Sloth probably more than anyone. that kid cracked me up. if you are out there Sloth, i miss you!
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 6:00:40 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Matt -> lex has great dexterity, an absolute for Perform (Juggling)
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:57:33 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

i admit, Goliath doesn't look perfect, but to me as long as he looks alright and recognizably Goliath i don't care. as long as the stories are good, i can turn a blind eye to the art if its poor. i mean, we certainly got our fair share of bad animation in the series.

LOL, i gotta wonder, what is it about Lexington that would make him a good juggler?

hey wheres Todd? usually hes a bit more vocal, i guess our recent conversations don't interest him.
come to think of it, i miss a lot of our old regulars. i mean, i look in the archives and i see so many people and i say "what happened to them?" like Gabriel "gaygoyle", JimR, Siren, Vashkoda, Aris, et al.
oh well, at least we are getting some good fresh blood around here, and now i look like one of the old regulars to these newbies. when i first started posting about 5 years ago i remember wondering if i'd ever become a recognized regular in this room, guess i have. : )
still, i miss a lot of people.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:55:43 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Actually a lot of comic companies allow their artists to post on DA. It just depends on the kind of work. Mostly it's the indpendent companies, whose artist and writers work out of art studios. Hedgecock actually works out of Ape entertainment I believe, and currently with most copyright laws of comic books, in some cases, they own the artwork even if they don't own the character.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:27:32 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Purplegoldfish -> thanks for noticing me... their duet could be like sonny and cher's i got you babe lol

Lexington could be a good juggler if he wanted i think
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:24:47 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Is Slave Labor in the habit of allowing their artists to post work they've done for the company at Deviantart.com? Somehow I'm guessing not... so I'm not going to get all riled up over anything I see there.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"It's four walls of madness in this house of cards." - Elton John / Bernie Taupin
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:23:31 pm EST from 70.227.79.36

Yeah, I kind of agree with Demonskrye. Though it's a good artist's interpretation of the character for a stand alone piece, it looks a little strange. He's too...lumpy lol, and his waist is a bit too thin. But I'm a bit biased as I'm not too much a fan of comic book art, but I'll have to get used to it with this comic I guess.

Anyway, I left a comment to the guy asking him if he's working on the comic. (though I doubt it, it didn't seem like he knew about it at all, from his own comments.) And I mentioned the comic and DVDs :)

Garg talent show: Hehe, that's a scary thought! I'de kind of like to see Elisa and Goliath sing a duet ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:22:58 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

The original sketch shows the whisps from his eyes more as light glares. I am guessing the colourist interupted the sketch differently, and choose what looks like energy/gas leaking out. If anyone would like to E-mail Hedgecock and ask if Evans is his colourist for the project, you can do so through DHedgecock@ape-entertainment.com
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:11:56 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Demonskrye>I kind of agree with you. It just does'nt say goliath. Goliath stands tall and proud etc and that image just makes him look so small and his cheast so tiney and all that stuff. If that is how it is going to look through the whole comic, It's going to be strange.

But then on the other hand in comic books it is the artists job to change it away from the orginal style to give some sort of new look. Though I dont know about that image haha.
Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 5:00:58 pm EST from 209.178.150.33

Honestly, I can't say I'm all that nuts about the colored Goliath. I'm guessing that the pencils may just be a sketch; the seem awfully loose for a drawing intended for inks. His anatomy is pretty weird too, and I don't just mean the slightly large ears. His torso is at a very strange angle to his lower body and those bulges on the outside of his right leg and in the bend of his left arm look wrong. It's fine for a quick sketch, but I'd hope that the finished artwork has a little more polish.

I think the shading on the color piece is a bit overdone. It does fill out what I think is a pretty rough sketch with a lot left unfinished, but I think it's too much with a lot of shadows that dont make sense. Also - and I'm surprised no one pointed this out - he made Goliath's wings the same color as his body, which makes it seem even more like a big undefineed mass of purple.

If this guy is going to be the colorist on the book, he's not promoting it very well. In the thread about the artwork, he pretty much says "Yeah, I wish tthey'd bring back the show or rerun it" as opposed to "Well, if you liked the show, the story continues in this comic I'm going to be coloring." It's not on common on forums like DeviantArt for people to color someone else's artwork just for kicks, so maybe that's what happened here. At l the least, if anyone is registered there, please go and post in the thread and tell people Season 2 Part 1 is out on DVD and the comic is coming.
Demonskrye
Art critic
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 4:43:59 pm EST from 209.6.250.47

yeah, i thought Goliath was exellantly colored. really the only gripe i have is his ears, but that says a lot. i kinda wonder how the wings will turn out.

i'm getting really excited about this comic. i mean, NEW STORIES! just to see a lot of Season 2 characters in the comics, like Angela, will be awesome.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 4:35:43 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

here's my comment...

If the gargoyles characters put on a talent show, what would each character do?
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 3:53:36 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

I'm not sure. You would need to ask Evans who did the effects. I wonder if he is going to be the regular colourist on the series. He's pretty good, and has a good sense of shading.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 3:46:02 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

i wonder in that drawing whats up with the colorful lights coming from Goliath's eyes?, not the eye glow, but the two yellowish "wisps" on each side.

if its not something we know about, it could be something from the comic book...?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 3:40:54 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

so what is everyone up to? anything fun or exciting??
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 2:57:16 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

Those are David Hedgecock's pencils. The ink and colouring was done by Dustin Evans, who is a professional colourist, and has coloured other Hedgecock works. I am not sure if that is actual artwork from the comic or if it is just Hedgecock doing some work to see if he can get the characters down.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 2:32:13 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

sorry for changing my avatar. it seems that phil uses the phoenix gate

anyway all i hope you are having a good day, and as for skydragonn, miss sarah, too bad you didnt go to pba... then we might have known each other lol

today seems like a good day ^.^ uncle buck is on right now!! *squee*
The Crimson Rogue - [pokechristian@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 1:54:01 pm EST from 12.218.107.237

#> thanks for the link to that pic. did David Hedgecock himself draw that? i'm trying to figure out what you mean by "I have seen what his Goliath might look like". so who drew this exactly?

anyway, yeah, his ears are weird, but he looks pretty good. way better than the Marvel Goliath. i could get over the ear thing pretty easily.

off to Zoology class!
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 1:44:29 pm EST from 150.201.53.30

That's my first time seeing that.

Ears are too big, but not bad.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 12:51:34 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I made my regular trip to the comic store this weekend to pick up my monthly issues of Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. The clerk, seeing my selection, asked if I knew the Gargoyles comic was coming out. He's apparently looking forward to it and spreading the word. The buzz about it is building.
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 12:48:48 pm EST from 69.129.121.95

Greetings, newcomers. Everyone, please... watch your step getting off the bus. ;)

Spade is getting all the attention. In the interest of equality, how about a polite round of applause for heart, diamond, and club? :: golf claps ::

Not quite sure why it's an issue, but David Hedgecock is confirmed for the comic book straight from the two best sources around: SLG and Greg Weisman, himself.

In other fandom news...

The Gathering staff is delighted to announce the addition of six new members of the "Gargoyles" voice cast, staff and crew to the guest roster for the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles. Joining us in June, schedule permitting, will be:

Elisa Gabrielli - voice of "Obsidiana"
Brynne Chandler - writer / story editor
Victor Cook - storyboard artist
Bob Kline - producer / director / development artist
Lydia Marano - writer
Dennis Woodyard - producer / director

To view the full guest list, please visit our web site (click my name for the link).

137 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Los Angeles, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"It's four walls of madness in this house of cards." - Elton John / Bernie Taupin
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 12:48:04 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

No, I was refering to this one http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21138941/

The ears a little too pointed, and the waist has a weird bend but I think it's more based on the colouring then the pencils.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 12:20:33 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Sigh, no one in this CR was making racial slurs.

And as for David Hedgecock, yes, he is the penciler for the book. I think SLG's website is a more than reliable source for this info.

Also, where did you see his Goliath? If you're referring to the picture of Goliath and Elisa (in the tiger striped dress), that was actually drawn by Greg Guler.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Gathering 2006]
Come to the Gathering
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 12:18:24 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Actually I did not know whether you thought it was a racist or not. Assume the worse about people, get pleasently suprised when you are wrong.

The Comic Swap of Centre County, PA, has said they have not even been offered the chance to order Gargoyles yet. They have recently recieved one promo piece for the Tron book, and have carried the Haunted Mansion book for both of it's issues. As SLG lists David Hedgecock as the artist on the book, and I have seen what his Goliath might look like, I have decided that he will be alright, better than the Marvel artists.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:21:43 am EST from 128.118.246.103

So, has anybody pestered their local comic book store about the upcoming Gargoyles comic, yet? With all of the OT I've been working for the past month, I haven't had the chance to even GET to my local store. X_x Thankfully, I'll finally have this Saturday off so I can go in and ask. I'm curious as to what responses other folks have gotten; does your store know about it, yet? Were they planning on ordering? Did they say whether other people have asked for it as well? Do they plan on pimping it, much?
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:14:51 am EST from 24.126.8.44

i guess so...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 11:05:33 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Jurgan knew *exactly* what I meant, and why I said it. Cookie for Jurgan!

#> **Sigh** And before the Nazi's took it over, the swastika used to be a symbol for good luck. Was the unsolicited history lesson necessary if you knew how I intended that phrase?
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"- Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 10:36:25 am EST from 24.126.8.44

Jurgan>Actually I am not of the race that slur spade refers to, and I know the phrase has no racial meaning but the connotation behind the phrase since aproximently the 1940's has been one of racial context. The phrase is actually very old and has changed some what from what it originally was but it still currently holds the weight of race driven. That is why I said "although it probably is not meant that way" at the begining of my statement. Most people do not realize it is an offensive phrase to those who believe it deals with race, which I have no way of being sure they were when they said it.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 10:29:36 am EST from 128.118.89.159

so, ummm, is this what we are gonna talk about this week?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 9:40:47 am EST from 24.182.146.1

#: You're kidding, right? Racial slur? I mean, you've got to be kidding. No, no one is attacking your race. You know why? Because, until you said that, we didn't know what it was. "Call a spade a spade" is a common phrase. It means that you should not mince words and try to spin something in a positive light, but simply admit that it is what it is. For example, I hate the phrase "collateral damage." I'd say we should call a spade a spade, and say "civilian deaths." It doesn't matter whether those civilians are black, Arabs, Irish, or whatever else. You may feel people were being unfair to you, but there was no need to bring race into it.

As for the rest: It was a good discussion for a while, but it ended up as just two people talking one-on-one to each other very quickly. Generally, in this room we make a few long, well-thought-out posts rather than many quick ones. It was getting to chat room style. Moreover, by the end it seemed to be devolving into both people shouting "You're not understanding what I'm saying!" over and over. None of that is to say, "newbies, get lost!" I'm just explaining why some people might have been annoyed: it seemed like you two had taken over the room and were making lots and lots of posts without really thinking about them. And since you'd both stopped making new points, that's why people said it was beating a dead horse.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 8:48:18 am EST from 153.9.83.54

Although it was probably not meant that way, I do not like to be called be the racial slur "Spade".
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 7:27:09 am EST from 66.71.80.73

Re: Kythera's "a spade a spade", "act like an arse" comments

Come on people. Go back over #'s posts on last week's board. At no point did the guy say anything out of line or respond in a childish fashion to either of the two major back-and-forths that went on. Those were surpisingly civil debates, it was hugely encouraging to see them stick that way. He never sounded like a "know-it-all" to me, just defended his points calmly and clearly.

And, heh, this is just a bit more personal opinion here, but I think some people give up way too easily on interesting discussions in this room. It's not cool to end a discussion with basically, "You're not making any sense!", not when the person on the other side of the debate simply has a different perspective. If you can't get behind what they're saying, simply opt out of the talk you're having.

I've seen two comments from separate posters about "beating a dead horse". Unless it's really warranted, do we need to do that? It's annoying. It's like you're saying, "I'm tired of reading about what you guys are talking about, so shut up about it already". Neither of the discussions that got a little heated last week lasted long enough or got so out of hand that there was any justification for claiming they'd run their course. They might have deviated from Gargoyles discussion after a while (though they were no less relevant to the issues they sprung from) and warranted the "take it to e-mail" comment after a while, I dunno...maybe I should read the board's Rules & FAQ or User Agreement (do we have one?) on what's allowed. Then again, a bit of deviation should be okay, otherwise it'd be really quiet more often in here.

Sorry, I should't play mod/admin ('cause I'm not), but I couldn't keep my mouth shut about some of the bullshit that I could sorta see starting to develop. 'Cause look--new posters! And they're all articulate and such. Don't scare 'em away.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2006 4:21:59 am EST from 69.17.169.178

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Comments for the week ending February 13, 2006

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