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Gargoyles

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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 25, 2011

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Bishansky, I particularly liked your entry on Macbeth. He was always my favorite character on the show, and you hit on something you noticed with the fans going too far in seeing him as a good guy. I remember when I rewatched Enter Macbeth, years after having seen the whole series, I was surprised at how Macbeth was played as a straight villain. I'd seen the episode before, and even though I remembered what happened, I'd forgotten just how ruthless he was in his first couple appearances. I could probably say a good bit more about the list, but I didn't see anything I strongly disagreed with.

Oh, and Merry Christmas, etc.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

**drops off a batch of cookies for the Cookie Table**

Frankly, I baked a pretty small amount this year in real life -- only six dozen did I actually end up baking for friends in family this holiday season . . . still, nothing beats a giant plate of cookies left by the fire place that's only missing a cookie or two by Christmas morning, lol.

Bishansky: I also enjoyed your list of Gargoyles villains . . . and thanks for recommending Harvester of Eyes's "Tis the Season." Both were fun reads. And Harvester: Definitely enjoyed the ending, but man, [SPOILER] poor Ghost of Christmases to Come [/SPOILER], hehe.

Landon: Happy belated birthday, man!

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

Merry Christmas!
Supermorff

May your days be merry and bright! :D
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

Merry Christmas, all!
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582@gmail.com]
Grr. Arg.

Greg B.> I don't consider Shari a villian (yet), even though she does hang around with with Thailog. And I would have had Dracon on the list, probably 16-20th. But other than that, just placement.

Again, loved reading it!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

wow, these Gargoyles Marvel Comics are ... sick. I knew that they were bad, but I didn't know that they were SICK.
And the drawings in this other comic, this "study in stone" thing are terrible...
I love my SLG comics even more now xD
Merry Christmas to all.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

I'm gone for the weekend. Whatever your beliefs are (or are not), I hope you all have a wonderful weekend!
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Anyone know Dick Grayson's birthday? I've heard first day of spring and Nov. 11th. I was wondering which would be used for Young Justice.
Alex - [Wonderfulakari@gmail.com]

Victor Cook created Mecha-Nation. Weisman helped develop it and wrote it. Distinct difference.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

I may be the only one who has picked up on what's been going on between these two:
http://www.formspring.me/TeaGora
http://www.formspring.me/FaraMaku
In other words, congratulations!

Anonymous

Battle Beast> <<Greg B: Great list. I don't agree with all your choices of course, but I loved reading it. Great job!>>

Oh, what would you have done differently?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Ronin - Greg has created his own property recently, along with Greg Guler and Vic Cook: Mecha-Nation. It's been stuck with artist delays unfortunately.

I think Greg would love to do his own animation property again. He's been pitching ideas to studios for years but they're not biting. The industry is different now than it was when Gargoyles was created and many stations only want to buy pricier cartoons if they're "safe bets" such as those based on comic properties that everyone already knows. Of course most of the Young Justice team isn't as well known as Superman, Spider-Man etc but the TV industry isn't always based on logic.

For example, Warner is still treating its Young Justice DVD releases like it's a kiddie show, which is a bit contrary to its theme and style IMHO: http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=1211

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I fI don't post again before Sunday, Merry Christmas everyone!!!

Greg B: Great list. I don't agree with all your choices of course, but I loved reading it. Great job!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

I do wonder what is next for Greg Weisman?

Ever since "Gargoyles";
I have not seen much else that seemed distinctively as his own work or as he might see it his own project. Alot of work in the panel rooms like D'sney or Pixar are typically I think "co-worked" on with writing teams, usually its big budget stuff when its that way. What I'm asking of Greg is to find an idea he likes and be able to deliver that into a young but adult setting, too many "Cartoons" or Animations are aimed at 13 or younger currently not 16 and much older. Basically a positive creation with a dark atmosphere similar to Gargoyles and witty humor. So Greg & fans to re-cap I ask ie:

=Key points=
-Greg Weisman is at the helm, or 90% at least...
-Dark-Dramatic-Action
-Some Witty Humor, (keeps the Doctor away)
-More adult, but still positive so its easy for all ages to enjoy.
- Target audience should be primarily aimed for those of us whom grew up with your works and stuff like it.
-Use the mindset of SEGA that if; "big brother likes it it must be cool" to advert it to the younger crowd. It basically should sell itself ( or practically almost does).

I'd be happy to see more of anything you Greg could put out, and Merry Christmas to you and your family+Friends from a long time fan.

>Ronin "The Wanderer"

=P+S=

Also as a last note:

Young Justice has been fun, but I still have yet to see more of the big Justice League stretch its new-found potential from recent Direct to DVD works like JL: "Crisis on Two Earths" I do see some of that elaborate crazy good talent bleeding through into YJ, which is good, all the best to you+YJ-Team and everyone here have a happy 2012 too. I Hope the world ending in 2012 is just complete rubbish like Y2k was.

I won't be back, but feel free to mail me at SHADOWBOX88@GMAIL.com with any in-kind reply or ideas should you feel the need to express it... you may consider this a "rant" but I think it shortly hits something we all miss in animation; Greg Weisman on "his very own" "fun" & "dark" project again, whatever that might be- it doesn't even need to be Gargoyles or Gargoyles related at all. Just needs to be engaging and fun. The Greg Weisman way. Cheers & Best o' Luck!

Ronin "The Wanderer" - [shadowbox88@gmail.com]
RTW - "Where shall we find the next big adventure? Let's just go & find it!"

Error> Er, I meant "isn't something that HURTS my argument". Got a little frazzled with organizing my sentences.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Masterdramon>"But even Greg W. admitted that he felt the character was "spent" after Vendettas, which I think precludes him automatically from what we might call 'Joker status.'"

Not...really? I don't understand what Hakon's limited amount of appearances would have to do with anything or how effective of a thematic foil he is.

I also don't -quite- see what Weisman's comment has to do with anything. Hakon being finished in the story doesn't mean he's gone forever. His existence is predicated on his hatred and he sure as hell didn't make peace in Vendettas, so he's still existing in some form. Even if he never shows up again, he's still THERE. Just festering uselessly because he's an ineffectual dolt.

"Like Joe Chill or the Burglar, he's less of a full-blown villain in-and-of-himself and more of a symbol, endemic of the problems their respective heroes seek to avert. Each of them would later have a story or two in which they would return into the hero's life as the proverbial ghost of their past (in Hakon's case, literally), but none of them held staying power beyond that."

Right, but no matter how much they try to be superhero comics aren't really a tangible, linear story. There's a difference between Hakon returning and Joe Chill returning. Joe Chill is a natural extrapolation of the nature of a DC hero's myth REQUIRING itself to cover every base to avoid stale stories. Joe Chill isn't a tangible member of Batman's rogue's gallery.

My Spidey knowledge is limited, but I'm gonna guess that if the Burglar did reappear it was probably a "how far I've come" thing. Which, again, is similar...but not the same thing. Unless I'm wrong and, like Hakon, the Burglar makes sporadic reappearances that continually emphasize and expand on the fact that he is the polar opposite of Peter Parker.

I don't think Joe Chill or the Burglar are written that way, but Hakon is.

Not to mention that, as far as the original 65 episodes go, Hakon appears in the same amount of episodes as Thailog and Tony Dracon (two much more significant members). If you'd like to consider multi-parters a single story, that would still only rank him one appearance below. That's not something you can proportionally claim about Joe Chill or the Burglar in relation to their antagonistic betters.

(Though Thailog gets comic book time to accomodate for his upgrade in importance, but Hakon's place in the seasonal arc of season two is still very telling and isn't something that helps my argument. Then again, showing that the Burglar has appeared about as much as the Kingpin is just as telling, metaphorically speaking).

"Beyond the 'illiteracy' point, I would say that Castaway fits all of those descriptors as much as or even moreso than Hakon does, and we know we'll be seeing him (and his descendants, both biological and spiritual) quite a bit if and when the series goes forward. So I stand by my selection of him as the Manhattan Clan's symbolic 'Joker.'"

I disagree.

Castaway doesn't fit the bill like Hakon does. Castaway HAS a family, albeit a broken one...which he attempts to rebuild with the Quarrymen. That's not the same thing, exactly. Hakon's family is essentially nothing but Wolf, and it's used as a means to an end. Meanwhile, Castaway is building a family for a purpose and unity he genuinely believes in. He's not weaponizing his family, he's REPLACING it.

Castaway is more complex than Hakon, and by virtue of that he doesn't quite qualify. The absence/weaponizing of a family bond isn't the same as trying to replicate a new family to fit your world view. He's not weaponizing the Quarrymen, he's joining with like minded individuals for a common goal (or people that think they're like minded) and putting them under a family crest.

Castaway isn't an intangible, undying force like Hakon is, either. Now, the QUARRYMEN or HUNTERS certainly are. But that's not just Castaway. And if we put a group as its own slot in the Rogue's Gallery ala the 2198 document, they still ultimately represent a corruption of family values, not a complete lack of them. Their parallel is more nuanced than Hakon's, but it's not the polar opposite he represents.

These antagonists all have overlap in these themes, but they do not register the exact position like Hakon does. By virtue of his simplicity, he is the polar opposite thematic force of the Manhattan Clan. The rest are just corruptions, which is more nuanced but not the same thing.

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Harlan: But even Greg W. admitted that he felt the character was "spent" after Vendettas, which I think precludes him automatically from what we might call "Joker status."

Like Joe Chill or the Burglar, he's less of a full-blown villain in-and-of-himself and more of a symbol, endemic of the problems their respective heroes seek to avert. Each of them would later have a story or two in which they would return into the hero's life as the proverbial ghost of their past (in Hakon's case, literally), but none of them held staying power beyond that.

Beyond the "illiteracy" point, I would say that Castaway fits all of those descriptors as much as or even moreso than Hakon does, and we know we'll be seeing him (and his descendants, both biological and spiritual) quite a bit if and when the series goes forward. So I stand by my selection of him as the Manhattan Clan's symbolic "Joker."

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

Supermoff> But not as much as Hakon, is my point.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Hey folks! Long shot, I know, but... if anyone here attended the very first Gathering of the Gargoyles in 1997 in New York, and you have photos online, please post a link? Any photos would be very helpful to a good friend of mine who's currently trying to remember who all was there.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Harlan> You forgot that gargoyles protect, Hakon destroys... but also, a lot of the things you mention could apply just as well to other villains, like Demona (love/hate, family, mortal/immortal, defined by the massacre).
Supermorff

Happy Winter Solstice - the unofficial Gargoyles winter celebration(after all, it's the longest night of the year).

And to the human world, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and whatever way you choose to celebrate the season. All the best to you & your Families/Clans. Enjoy and be safe.

Wingless

Masterdramon> I made the comparison before, long ago, that Hakon is to the Manhattan Clan as the Joker is to Batman: which is to say, the complete and polar thematic opposite.

The clan is bound by love, Hakon is bound by hate.
The clan is an accepting family, Hakon uses his family as a weapon.
The clan prides literacy, Hakon is proudly illiterate.
The gargoyles are scarce and thus tangibly mortal, Hakon is effectively immortal (albeit dead).
The clan has risen from the pain of the massacre, Hakon is defined entirely by it.
Similarly, the clan survived, but Hakon died.
The Clan exists under Goliath, a dramatic prism for the universe, Hakon is an ineffectual joke of a human being.
Etc.

Largely, I don't feel like the Joe Chill/Burglar connection necessarily makes sense. Gargoyles isn't really a universe in the same way DC or Marvel is; it's a tangible tapestry of events, not a malleable history that can be tweaked or overlooked slightly with no consequence for the sake of artistic license. Joe Chill and the Burglar, ultimately, are symbols that remain divorced from the story itself except for rare instances. Hakon appears more in the television series than Proteus, Banshee, Anansi, or even my favorite character Matrix. He ISN'T that type of symbol or status, really. Gargoyles, though wide in scope, is far too tight knit a universe to really put Hakon in the same league as characters who are relatively insignificant and operate as emblems only to be visited in stories that are more like mythology and less like tangible steps in an arc.

And Vendettas is awesome.

Vinnie> It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

LOL!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

Vinnie> Er.... okay?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Well at least you didn't compare Hakon to Joe the Plumber.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

Harlan: The reason I find that comparison quite apt is that Hakon, like Chill or the Burglar, is - in comparison to most of the rest of their respective Rogue's Galleries - an utter small-fry. A pathetic shade of a brutish, uneducated (and proudly so!) man whose greatest accomplishment was leading some random band of vikings in the tenth century.

And yet, by being at the right place at the right time, he profoundly altered the destinies of our lead heroes forever. Just as Chill murdered Bruce Wayne's parents in front of him and the Burglar murdered Ben Parker after his nephew refused to stop him when he had a chance, Hakon's slaughter of the Manhattan Clan forever elevates him to a place of infamy that he would have no chance of occupying otherwise.

Frankly, he's just too one-note, uninteresting, and limited in scope to qualify as the Joker or the Green Goblin; he's not even Killer Croc or Rhino. He's the "origin story baddy," and while he wouldn't work as a successful villain outside of that context, he works out beautifully within it.

And as for who the Manhattan Clan's "Joker" really is, I'd have to go with Castaway going forward.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

Masterdramon>"I thought the comparison of Hakon to Joe Chill or the Burglar was rather apt; I'd never seen that particular line drawn that way before."

I still say he's more of a thematic Joker to their Batman, if not necessarily as important on a practical level.

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Thanks for the birthday messages.

Young Justice #11 is out today. Preview: http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/12/21/exclusive-preview-of-young-justice-11/ It's available digitally: https://comics.comixology.com/#/issue/17438/Young-Justice-2011-11 New interview with artist Chris Jones: http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/youngjustice/backstage/interview7.php

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

BISHANSKY - Thanks for your post on the "Gargoyles Universe" villains. I just finished reading it, and enjoyed it.

I think it says something about "Gargoyles" that so many of the people on this list are connected to history, legend, and literature. We have:

Duval/Peredur, a version of Sir Percival.

The Banshee from Irish folklore.

Duncan from Scottish history (and Shakespeare, though he's a lot different in the Scottish play!).

Coldsteel/Iago, whose original name, though not official, comes from "Othello".

Constantine III/the Bald, again from Scottish history.

Gillecomgain, also from Scottish history.

Falstaff, named after and modelled on one of Shakespeare's greatest characters (the only Shakespeare character who has been written about more than him is Hamlet).

Shari, who, as you commented, might be the "Gargoyles" version of Scheherazade.

The Weird Sisters, from Shakespeare's play, but who are linked to many other myths and legends.

Macbeth, a combination of history and Shakespeare.

I think that Peredur/Duval will make an especially intriguing antagonist for "Pendragon", if Greg gets to make it. There are many stories about Arthur returning to the modern world and facing an old adversary, like Morgan le Fay or Mordred. But Peredur/Duval aren't out to kill Arthur or overthrow him, as those other enemies are. They see themselves as on his side, but his premature awakening has thrown their plans into confusion, and now they're trying to get things back on the right track. (And they have a point - thanks to Elisa, Arthur has awakened two hundred years too early, and isn't likely to be around now when Britain's greatest hour of need comes.) A more interesting conflict than simply "kill the hero". I look forward to seeing how Greg will handle this, if he gets to.

I agree with you about Hakon's return in "Vendettas" being anticlimactic; he goes from subtle psychological torture to a mere slugfest.

One thing I'll say about Sevarius; he's the one Gargoyles villain who can come up with a scheme to release a mutating gas in Times Square on New Year's Eve and make it acceptable. Yes, it's a cliche, but that makes it perfect for his character. (Complete with Fang grumbling about how Sevarius absolutely had to have the gas go off at midnight, without any mechanism to release it early.)

I do think that Thailog as Goliath's clone carries with it one element that makes him all the more unsettling; this is a guy who looks reasonably like Goliath (though at the same time, with enough physical differences like the coloring and armor to allow you to tell them apart), but who is almost the reverse of Goliath. Where Goliath is the epitome of a medieval warrior-hero, with both the strengths and the flaws of one, Thailog is a modern amoral schemer like Xanatos.

About Castaway and his cunning work on his public image; I wonder if the Quarrymen will, at some point down the road, be publishing books and articles claiming that the gargoyle massacres of the past were exaggerations or fabrications (like a Gargoyles Universe version of the Holocaust-denier movement). It's too early for the present, but maybe by 2198....

Good write-ups on Xanatos and Demona, with their pride of place (which didn't surprise me). I think it makes sense that Xanatos would continue with his scheming even after he called a truce with the gargoyles; his main goal wasn't to get rid of them but to increase his wealth and power (and become immortal).

On Demona, I still think that "Clan-Building" provided one of her best scenes: when she reports to her cell about how Gillecomgain and Constantine wiped out another gargoyle cell, True says they should hold a wind ceremony, and Demona vetoes that for revenge. It shows just how eaten up by revenge she is that she places it above holding a funeral for the people she's avenging.

Again, thanks for the post, Bishansky.

Todd Jensen

Why am I still awake?

MASTERDRAMON> <<I thought the comparison of Hakon to Joe Chill or the Burglar was rather apt; I'd never seen that particular line drawn that way before.>>

It's a thought that's been in my head for years, just not sure if I've articulated it before.

<<While I'll admit I may be starting to get a tad burned-out with your upteenth analyses of Demona and Xanatos (just a tad, though)>>

I'll admit, when I got to them, I even said to myself "well, here I am again. Back here. Oh, look. My seat is still warm." But I tried to make sure I articulated some new thoughts and expanded on some old ones. Besides, how could I do this list and not include them?

Scary thing is, if I ever do my "Peculiar Olympians" series (inspired by Incisivis), I'll be talking about them at length yet again. Aw well, I'm in no hurry... and if I do, I promise to put some distance between their eventual entries and this post.

Not that I don't enjoy talking about Demona and Xanatos, I LOVE talking about them, and I could easily keep going. But, it's a well I don't want to make constant stops at. Occasional stops. That's actually why I've hesitated to do this list for so long, before deciding "Fuck it, it's the holidays and I'm giving myself a present!"

<<I greatly enjoyed the pieces on villains you don't normally cover heavily, particularly Castaway and Sevarius. And the ramble on where exactly Macbeth falls, character-alignment-wise, was brilliant.>>

Thanks, Macbeth is a character I've had a lot to say about for a while, and I thought it was about time to air it out. Again, I tend to go against the grain of a lot of fans' more one dimensional views of complex characters. Gee, why does everyone have to be either good or bad?

<<- I think my only real point of contention with the list is that Proteus didn't even make an appearance in the honorable mentions. Yeah, he was only in one episode, but his sheer suaveness (nearly all of the credit to which must be afforded to the late, great Roddy McDowall) was easily the best part of it. The guy's just a hoot - while remaining utterly chilling - and his powers are a whole lot of fun as well.>>

I enjoy Proteus too, but he's going to need a lot more to be an honorable mention. I do agree that he is a hoot.

And hey, if blogger starts working for you again, feel free to share any more thoughts you have.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Greg B.: Blogger's being a little bit wonky and not allowing me to post as myself, so I think I'll just record my initial thoughts here...

- I thought the comparison of Hakon to Joe Chill or the Burglar was rather apt; I'd never seen that particular line drawn that way before.

- While I'll admit I may be starting to get a tad burned-out with your upteenth analyses of Demona and Xanatos (just a tad, though), I greatly enjoyed the pieces on villains you don't normally cover heavily, particularly Castaway and Sevarius. And the ramble on where exactly Macbeth falls, character-alignment-wise, was brilliant.

- I think my only real point of contention with the list is that Proteus didn't even make an appearance in the honorable mentions. Yeah, he was only in one episode, but his sheer suaveness (nearly all of the credit to which must be afforded to the late, great Roddy McDowall) was easily the best part of it. The guy's just a hoot - while remaining utterly chilling - and his powers are a whole lot of fun as well.

Overall, I'd say about 90+% of my interest in the "New Olympians" spin-off comes from seeing that guy back in action.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

So, I've wanted to write this for a while and I figured, it's the holidays, I may as well give myself a present over in my blog.

Here it is, The Top Twenty Gargoyles Universe Villains

http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2011/12/top-twenty-gargoyles-universe-villains.html

Comments? Questions? Disagreements?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

They're not a couple.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Will we see more of Robin and Zatanna? There my favorite Young Justice couple!
Greg - [Gregwithag77@gmail.com]
Greg wit a G

Is it Landon's birthday? In that case, congrats! :D

Also, the teaser mentioning Talia makes me happyz.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

LANDON> Looks interesting. Btw, Happy B-day man!
Algernon - [padraig.j.griffin@hotmail.com]

Greg hints at what's coming for the Young Justice comic series in 2012: http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/youngjustice/backstage/interview6.php
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Kath Soucie who voiced the Weird Sisters also voiced the triplets from "Beauty and the Beast" (The Bimbettes) on "House of Mouse."

Umm...that's all. Just had to get that triplet trivia out of my system.

Richard Jackson

Yesterday I ordered this Gargoyles "look and find" book and "Gargoyles - Defenders of the night". I'm really exited for these xD But they won't arrive here until next year I guess.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

I can't even type one word without screwing it up! LOL! Where's the edit button I asked for Gorebash!?
Anthony Tini

DECcember
Anthony Tini

Christopher Eccleston!
Algernon

Okay, I'll be Paul McGann this week.
Harvester of Eyes
"You are superior to us in one respect only... you are better at dying!" -Dalek Sec ("Doctor Who")

Seventh! Or "il geop" in Korean in honor of Kim Jeong Il's death.
Richard Jackson

Sixth!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Good to know that the CR doesn't like umlauts.
Chip - [<------The League of Extraordinary Nerds Here!]
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

fünf.
Chip - [<------The League of Extraordinary Nerds Here!]
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

Fourth!
Spen

Third in the name of having assumed this was the case months ago. Hell, given their track record, his actual death may have been months ago...
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"You're a rock 'n' roll suicide..." - David Bowie

I'll second that.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

FIRST

. . . and Kim Jong Il is dead . . .

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka