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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 12, 2012

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SUPERMORFF - Thanks. I should probably have studied the origin of the word first.
Todd Jensen

Todd> Actually, sheveled is more appropriate, since the word is from Old French dis- and -chevel. In English it probably would originally have had two Ss, but these were elided into one.
Supermorff

PATRICK - I meant the word play (when Greg Weisman used "sheveled" as the opposite of "disheveled").

("Heveled" would actually work better, since the "s" is part of the "dis" that you'd be dropping to make the opposite. Oh, no, now he's got me doing it too.)

Todd Jensen

MATT> Never saw that before. Loved it. And yeah, I know what one part you're referring to.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Greg B.> Have you seen this: http://www.hulu.com/watch/327436/collegehumor-sketches-every-michael-bay-movie-in-under-a-minute

Thought of you, naturally... except for one part.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Masterdramon> Okay, point taken. This is hardly on the level of Jean Grey's life-death-rebirth schtick, though.
Supermorff

Supermorff: To be fair, Stephanie Brown (who has variously been Spoiler, Robin, and Batgirl throughout her career) was believed dead at the hands of Black Mask for many years...but that death required a massive Character Derailment for beloved classic supporting character Dr. Leslie Thompkins, so I'm rather glad it was retconned to just be her Faking the Dead years later.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Modern Love gets me to the church on time..." - David Bowie

Patrick> What? When has that ever been a bad habit of any of the Robins? The only one I can think of that was killed even once was Jason Todd. All of the others just retired or took new names.
Supermorff

Todd: "Looks like Greg Weisman's picked up a certain bad habit of Robin's.

He's been killed and replaced multiple times by another guy wearing a similar costume?

Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Why Riverside Drive? Is there a pop culture reference here that I'm not getting?
Todd Jensen

Ross> And it would add to their worries.
ShadowChild28 - [Kendal.renfro@yahoo.com]

ShadowChild28> Presumably the same thing they'd do if they found one of the gargs badly beaten in any other location. Help them out.
Ross

*Correction* What would Elisa and Matt do if they found one of the gargs badly beaten on Riverside Drive?
ShadowChild28 - [Kendal.renfro@yahoo.com]

What would Elisa and Matt do if one of the gargs was found beaten up on Riverside Drive?
ShadowChild28 - [Kendal.renfro@yahoo.com]

It'd be interesting. But I wonder how much of this Greg himself knows yet. I'm sure he has some general ideas, but with some clans he might not have even really come up with a general number in terms of population yet.

Oh, and I forgot to say it earlier, but given how quickly beasts reproduce, I think that the beasts do outnumber the gargoyles at Xanadu. I also think this is the only clan in which they do.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Matt- Thanks.

I also wonder if any other clans practice the London clan's policy of forced isolation during the females heat. Do you think the Xanadu clan would practice isolation for the beasts if they got too large in numbers? And it's hard to judge how much inter-clan movement there would be when we don't know how large the other clans are. That's why I say if I could ask Greg one question that he would have to answer straight, I want to know how large the clans are as of 1997.

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

I imagine that the New Olympus Clan is at least as large as the London Clan, though due to a lack of threats and limited resources, they may be limiting their population as well.

But I think the London Clan will end this policy soon enough. Several clans have recently been revealed to exist to the London Clan (Manhattan, Avalon and probably the Labyrinth, Mayan and Ishimura Clans by now too) and most of those are seriously hurting in the population department. Since the "no eggs in the third heat" policy was probably never that popular (though neccesary) to the London gargoyles, I'm sure they'd be happy to send out small colonies of gargoyles and eggs to their less populated fellow clans. I think it is quite possible that by the 2018 hatching, several clans could have numerous London members and/or eggs. I suspect that Artus will have several rookery siblings of London origin, for instance. And of course, the London Clan will still have a large rookery of their own since nearly all of the fertile females will be producing eggs.

Greg has said (in the complete Gargoyles: 2198 document if no where else) that as all the clans become aware of each other the clans with many members will indeed boost the numbers of the smaller clans. And by the time the Gargoyle Nation is founded, all the clans will be in pretty good shape.

As for beasts, I suspect that more than half of all the world's remaining beasts are indeed in Xanadu, though I'm not sure if Greg has confirmed this or not. Eventually, by 2198, I think all the clans will have thriving beast populations, most with ancestry at Xanadu.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

I think some of these questions have been asked before, but I couldn't find them in the archives and I don't remember the answers, so I am asking them again. As of 1997.

1. Is the London clan the largest surviving clan?
2. Do beasts outnumber gargoyles in the Xanadu clan?
3. What percent of beasts world wide does the Xanadu clan make up? More than 50 or less than 50?

I am just currious if some of these clans can help reinforce the numbers of other clans.

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Maybe we should just accept that the "Gargoyles" production team sacrificed probability for the needs of the story. Though it might make a good question to submit to "Ask Greg" when the queue re-opens. (It would certainly make a welcome change for Greg from all the "When will my favorite DC Comics character show up in 'Young Justice'?" questions.)
Todd Jensen

I wonder how Demona would've reacted to Goliath eventually choosing a different second. I imagine not well.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Richard > Frankly I get the impression that you're just in the mood to argue. ;)
Rebel

Rebel> You said Demona was a stand in second and that it would make no sense that she be the permanent second in command. By saying that she was a stand in second and that Goliath would have replaced her with a younger gargoyle like Brooklyn, you were implying that Goliath would have eventually replaced (a firing or sacking in my eyes) her and put Brooklyn in her place. And there's nothing in the archives I could find about a "stand in second."

But I'll leave it to the audience to decide.

Richard Jackson

Matt > Based on the fact that Brooklyn likely still would have become the Second even back in the Dark Ages had things gone differently, my conclusion is that he was probably the natural leader of not only the Trio, but probably his entire rookery. He was closer to Lex and Broadway but I would guess that even his other siblings probably looked to him as a de facto leader when they needed someone of their own generation to look to for leadership.
Rebel

Richard Jackson > Pretty sure Greg points out in his response that them being the same age is a problem, at least over the long term.

"The bigger issue over time is age. A second should be in a position to be groomed to take over for his leader, either in case of an emergency (as when Brooklyn took over for Goliath during the World Tour) or in the case of succession, as when the older Hudson stepped down in favor of the younger Goliath.

Had things gone differently at Wyvern, eventually either Demona would have stepped down to allow a new second to be chosen from the younger generation (most likely Brooklyn) OR Goliath would have stepped aside to allow Demona to lead and chose a new younger Second (again, most likely Brooklyn)."

I never said anything about Demona getting "sacked" just because she's the same age as Goliath. But yeah, eventually Goliath would have chosen someone younger (unless he first stepped down to allow Demona to lead, which seems wholly unlikely).

Rebel

Looks like Greg Weisman's picked up a certain bad habit of Robin's.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/latest.php?qid=14210

(Check his answer to the first question.)

Todd Jensen

I was thinking of that same response from Greg, but I hadn't realized it was in response to a question that *I* posted over 11 years ago! Funny.

Anyway, my thought about Greg's response was that in the hypothetical situation where things went differently at Wyvern, Brooklyn would've still been the natural choise for the second position. It isn't that I don't think he is very qualified, I do, it is just that I find it an interesting coincidence that of all the Trio's rookery sibs, the best gargoyle to one day take the second spot was one of the very few survivors. I suppose my question would be was Brooklyn just the natural leader of the Trio or was he really a leader of his whole generation? It always seemed to me that the Trio were a bit isolated from their peers, so I suspected the former. But perhaps that observation was only a result of the limited time and S&P requirements of gargoyles before the Wyvern Massacre. Schnozz seems to follow Brooklyn readily enough in any case...

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

ADAM> Again, do the math. Think of how old the trio's generation would have been at the time Goliath became leader.

He thought his angel of the night was the most qualified for the job. The only other gargoyles from his generation we know are Othello (probably too hot headed for the position), Desdemona (probably wouldn't want it), Iago (... yeah), and Hyppolyta (who didn't even want Goliath to be the leader).

I'm sure there were more in that generation, but we can't talk hypotheticals about characters we don't know about. But out of who we do know, I don't think he considered anyone else.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Greg B- Sorry, I had forgotten about "Vows". What I really wanted to know is whether Goliath seriously considered anyone else for second when he became leader.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Todd>"I've said this before, but I think it a sad commentary on animated television that "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" got two seasons and Greg Weisman's "Pendragon" was never made."

But put into the context of a world where Gargoyles got made, it seems more equal opportunity than sad. I've never seen the show and don't really intend to, but the scales seem fairly balanced in the grand scheme.

Which isn't so much a slam, but I dislike the idea that one show can be a sad commentary on an industry that tends to do more good than people like to acknowledge (and I'm not really saying you don't acknowledge it, I'm just being a little party pooper about the phrasing).

Bishanky>"Maybe I'll make a movie about Emerich being a Hitler worshipping Neo-Nazi."

Saucy and proportionate!

Just like my mom. =)

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Apologize for the double post, but this is post Rebel is probably talking about. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2292

In Greg's answer he said that Goliath and Demona would have kept serving until one or both of them stepped down for a member of the younger generation. There's nothing about Goliath sacking Demona and replacing her with Brooklyn because they're the same age.

Richard Jackson

Rebel> Hudson said there was no point in going backwards, since Goliath had once been his second. I don't know where this same age thing comes from. In fact "Long Way Till Morning" seemed to establish that when the leader steps down or appoints a second or promotes someone to leader seems to be his or her prerogative.
Richard Jackson

TINI> Yeah, I know about it. Leave to that talentless sack of retarded goat shit, Roland Emerich to tear down the greatest writer who ever lived.

You do realize everything in that movie is a lie, I hope.

Maybe I'll make a movie about Emerich being a Hitler worshipping Neo-Nazi.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Speaking of authors, I recently watched the 2011 movie "Anonymous". Has anyone seen it? I thought it was fantastic. I never knew that William Shakespeare's authorship was ever in question. After enjoying the wonderfully tragic and emotional movie, I checked some of the special features. It was cool to see and hear how much research that the producer and writers did for this movie.

"Anonymous" (and also "Warrior") are movies I definitely recommend.

Anthony Tini

Richard > Having Demona as the permanent Second-in-Command doesn't make sense, because she is the same age as Goliath. The Second-in-Command should be younger than the Leader. Hudson says something to this effect in "Upgrade".

At any rate, this isn't just an assumption that *I* have made. I'm pretty sure Greg said this somewhere. Folks, correct me if I'm wrong.

Rebel

ADAM> Watch "Vows." Then watch "Long Way to Morning." Look at the dates. Then do the math.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Rebel> Demona was Goliath's second for 10 years from 984 to 994. Why do you think she was a stand in? She was a natural leader or at least a dominant personality, as seen when she took control of various stray and rogue gargoyles after the Wyvern Massacre.
Richard Jackson

Adam > I don't know if Demona and Goliath were already mates when Hudson chose Goliath as Second. When Goliath became Leader he chose Demona as his stand-in Second, but it's my understanding that eventually (had the clan not been destroyed and the castle ransacked) Goliath would have probably chosen a younger gargoyle to be Second-in-Command, possibly Brooklyn.
Rebel

Don't know if this is in the archives, but I want to ask where Goliath and Demona mates when Goliath was chosen as Hudson's second, and when Goliath was chosen as the new second, did he have someone already in mind to be his future second?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

BISHANSKY - I've long suspected that the production team never thought out the implications of a substitute King Arthur from modern times living with the original Guinevere - and clearly, Standards and Practices never noticed it either.

I always found "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" a disappointment anyway - somebody comes out with an animated Arthurian series, and it feels far more like a conventional action-figure-based cartoon with a thin Arthurian veneer (apart from a couple of good scenes with Merlin, such as one where he gets a head cold that results in random spells going off, such as a swarm of bats appearing). In particular, I suspect that the real reason why the production team made the title characters time-warped football players rather than the "real" King Arthur and his knights was so that they could say things like "Let's do it, dude!" without looking ridiculously anachronistic.

I've said this before, but I think it a sad commentary on animated television that "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" got two seasons and Greg Weisman's "Pendragon" was never made. (And all the more so because the end of the Stone of Destiny story in "Clan-Building" hinted at a great interaction between King Arthur and the Illuminati coming up, now that Peredur knows that Arthur's awake two hundred years ahead of schedule.)

Todd Jensen

Since King Arthur is such a significant part of the Gargoyles Universe, I figure this is on topic:

http://gregxb.blogspot.com/2012/02/unfortunate-implications-in-knights-of.html

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Bishansky> Thanks. I showed that clip to a friend of mine and he nearly died. :D Can't wait for it. Maybe can find a Japanese copy or something...
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Todd> I celebrated Dickens' birthday by watching David Copperfield (1935). It had a great cast with many names people would be familiar with today like Basil Rathbone, Maureen O'Sullivan and W.C. Fields.

I watched Great Expectations (1946) a few weeks ago and I saw Lean's other effort of Oliver Twist (1948) where Fagin was played by Alec Guinness.

Richard Jackson - [rickymtj@yahoo.com]

Todd> Just haven't got round to it yet. If anyone here wants to give it a go, they'd be welcome.
Supermorff

I've noticed for a while that the synopsis of "Failsafe" at the "Young Justice" wiki is incomplete. Is this deliberate (since it was a [SPOILER] "Future Tense"-type story [/SPOILER]) or have the editors just not gotten around to finishing it yet?
Todd Jensen

A handful of "Greg Weisman" Formspring responses, mostly courtesy of their recently enacted "Heroes of Ulster"-based storyline...

Mr. Dugan: He's quite the storyteller even if he does need to brush up on his Irish mythology a bit.

Barghest (an Irish beast brought to Rory's side by the Phoenix): Woof?

Bres the Beautiful (a Child of Oberon): I quite admire this Prince Phobos character.

Master Dawa: Fair question.

Mac Gargan (not yet the Scorpion): It always pisses my off when his shows don't make it to the third season, just when he's about to get to the really good stuff.

Hawkeye: I'm a fan. I loved the Green Arrow Showcase.

I liked Young Justice too. Red Arrow and Artemis are my favorite characters, for obvious reasons.

Wendigo (the Marvel version): Grrr.

The Grey Gargoyle (in this incarnation, a mutate enhanced with gargate DNA by Miles Warren): I respect any man who appreciates Paris' rich history.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Modern Love gets me to the church on time..." - David Bowie

Today is the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Dickens. While Dickens only made one direct inspiration on "Gargoyles" (Fang's original name, Fred Sikes, suggests "Bill Sykes" from "Oliver Twist", and Greg Weisman's confirmed that the influence is real), his works and "Gargoyles" do have one thing in common: the interwoven characters. (To make it clearer what I mean, I'll cite an example from "Great Expectations". It begins with Pip, the main character, while still a boy, helping two convicts escape, and later on meeting the bitter Miss Havisham - who's filled with hatred towards men ever since her husband-to-be jilted her on their wedding day - and her haughty ward Estella. When Pip grows up, he meets one of the convicts again, Magwitch, who's his secret benefactor - and also Estella's father. And the other convict turns out to be the man who left Miss Havisham standing at the altar. When I re-acquainted myself with "Great Expectations" a few years ago, I thought as soon as I read that last bit that it felt exactly like something that would have happened on "Gargoyles".)

And, of course, there've been a few "Christmas Carol" take-offs directed at Demona in "Gargoyles" fanfiction (including Harvester's version which had Demona refuse repentance in a spectacular way).

Todd Jensen

I just discovered and corrected an error I made on the Gargwiki. In "The Lost", page 6, panel 3, Yama stands next to a sign in written in Kanji with a yen symbol above it. I didn't know how to search for the symbols, so I asked the Chinese teacher at my school to help me translate it. He said it was "High Island House", but "house" in that context meant like a "restaurant." Once he told me the words in Korean, I was able to find them through a Korean/Hanja (the word for Chinese characters here) dictionary.

But I ran it through the Japanese dictionary tonight and it said "High Island Shop." Just for the heck of it, I googled the kanji and a major department store chain, Takashimaya, popped up. I matched it with the kanji in the comic and you can do so yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takashimaya

There's four locations for this department store in Tokyo, so it doesn't really make finding exactly where Yama and Vinnie were that night very easy.

Richard Jackson

And away we go on with the show. Hopefully the crickets will keep at bay.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

BATTLE BEAST> It hasn't hit our side of the Pacific yet. But it should soon. No idea when though.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Tenth in the name of not being invited to any Super Bowl-watching parties and being forced to spend my evening rewatching Spectacular Spider-Man and playing Skyward Sword...
Ross

Ninth? Relly?

Bishansky> Where can I get a copy of that? It was amazing. Is it out yet???

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

8th. As in the number of NFL titles that the New York football Giants have won.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Seventh! Oh and by the way: Does anyone have
<---this avatar in a bigger resolution? As big as you could think of? I really like that piece of art and I searched on the internet, but couldn't find a bigger one. I know that in Clan Building Vol. 1 (during issue 3) there is a whole page made of this, but I couldn't find any kind of scanlations of CBV1, only for CBV2. :(

Neill - [neillgargoyle(at)gmail.com]

Sixth in the name of job hunting and promotions...
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Fifth in the name of getting back from a Rise Against concert in Virginia that, while epically awesome, is currently overshadowed in my mind by the two-and-a-half hours spent in the same spot in thirty-degree weather just to catch a $60 cab ride back home. XP

...I hate taxi companies.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Modern Love gets me to the church on time..." - David Bowie

Fourth in the name of....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9mPrbzz-k&feature=player_embedded

This holy thing, which made me tear up once I got to the title sequence.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
I don't want it to be illegal, therefore it isn't. That's how it works!

That was me...I was Third. I have no idea why it came up as anonymous.
Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

Third in the name of...Well, I've got nothing, really. But Third.
Anonymous

Brainiac -- Well, I'm SECOND on accounts of flying in from Boston, MA which gave me a chance to see Manhattan for the first time since 2005 (and from a gargoyles' POV --albeit maybe a few thousand feet higher than they would be comfortable with, hehe)
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

Am I first at this "late" time simply because everyone else was distracted by the Super Bowl?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!