To paraphrase "Office Space," fear of losing your job will only make you work just hard enough not to get fired.

Come to think of it, fear in general is a poor motive to do more than the bare minimum, and Demona only knows how to rule through fear. I don't think her clan would have fought as hard as, say, the Wyvern Clan under Goliath.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2016 2:20:11 pm EDT from 73.176.251.27

Greg B.> I was thinking the same thing, although one also has to think that tyrannical leaders tend not to inspire others to follow them very well. I could see them just going along with things to make her happy, but largely feeling unmotivated (and thus, not operating to their full potential) for most of the time they were under her.

I guess we haven't seen enough of her interactions with them to know for sure, but it could just have been the case that she didn't feel she would get enough motivation from them if she tried to take the battle to the enemy during the time she was with Macbeth.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2016 9:12:18 pm EDT from 76.118.36.78

"Of course, Demona was much more eager to take the battle to the enemy than Goliath was, but that is quite inconsistent with the gargoyle way, and persuading the rest of her clan to follow her might have been more difficult."

Considering what a tyrant she was towards them, I don't think it was that difficult at all. Look at how she disciplined one who suggested making peace with the humans. Hell, she brought them into the battle against Constantine decades before her alliance with Macbeth when the Grimorum was in her sights.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2016 3:37:32 pm EDT from 73.253.198.139

https://twitter.com/Debo_2706/status/721042058039791617

Hope springs eternal.
Algernon
All is One. One is All.
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2016 7:18:13 pm EDT from 109.77.117.116

Between their diurnal stone sleep and their reluctance to take the battle to the enemy (assuming that even half of Demona's clan resembled Goliath in 994 insofar as he was unwilling to take the battle to the Vikings), the gargoyles wouldn't have done THAT much to bolster Macbeth's defenses.

Of course, Demona was much more eager to take the battle to the enemy than Goliath was, but that is quite inconsistent with the gargoyle way, and persuading the rest of her clan to follow her might have been more difficult.

I think it's significant that in the battle between Macbeth and Duncan in 1040, Macbeth praised Demona's fighting prowess in particular. I suspect that it was reluctance rather than inability that made the rest of the gargoyles fight less fiercely than she did.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2016 12:32:57 pm EDT from 73.176.251.27

All good points. I guess I was thinking that the strength of Macbeth's country had increased with the help of gargoyle defenses during that time, so the people should, theoretically, be grateful. But I guess that would go against one of the themes of the show, that the humans often become spoiled by the gargoyles' efforts, to the point that they look down on, and resent, them.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2016 8:48:02 pm EDT from 76.118.36.78

I'd say that Masterdramon and Matthew have the right answer - Macbeth's return from death would be more likely to seem to his fellow Scotsmen the result of a pact with the powers of darkness than a heavenly blessing.

(Though Macbeth did later on perform a sort of "Once and Future King" act, incognito, by returning to Scotland to fight alongside Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn. He obviously kept his identity secret to everyone there, though. His participation in the theft/recovery of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey in 1950 - also successfully covered up - might count as well.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2016 8:42:55 am EDT from 68.231.85.113

You bring up a good point Masterdramon, considering the belief system of the time that the dead are supposed to remain buried until the resurrection if Macbeth suddenly showed up alive and well after dying he'd be more likely be labelled the Antichrist instead of the Once and Future King.

Actually kind of reminds me of Highlander where right after Connor was reborn the first thing his Clan did was exile him.
Matthew
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2016 4:20:02 am EDT from 64.85.229.140

Context is important here: keep in mind that this is seventeen years after Macbeth suddenly and inexplicably aged by several decades, during which he does not appear to have physically aged a day.

Furthermore, he has spent all those intervening years consorting and opening his kingdom to a race that the English, and probably not an inconsiderable number of people in his own court, believe to be monstrous demons who must be wiped out. Hell, his primary advisor is one.

All this adds up to a situation where Macbeth appears to have powers that are distinctly not Christian. Gruoch outright tells him, as I recall, that many of his subjects already suspect him of sorcery. Pagan, dark, and sinful.

If he shows back up suddenly after being declared dead, woundless and whole, the explanation that most people would come up with is not going to be an implicit comparison to Arthur or Christ. It'll be that he struck a deal with a demon and is undying. Which has the advantage of being not all that far from the truth.

As far as Macbeth and Gruoch were concerned, Macbeth's people would always fear and distrust him if he returned in such a way. They'd be certain they were subjects of a wicked sorcerer, or else of a man in one's thrall. How could he lead a military campaign in such a state?

Luach's best chance of success was to be the uncontested heir, free from that stigma.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If man won't kill God...THE DEVIL WILL DO IT!" - Lex Luthor
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2016 2:58:29 am EDT from 75.85.71.80

Question for Todd Jensen> The reasoning given for Macbeth to flee in City of Stone, Part 4, after his first "death" was that everyone knew he was dead, and if he was seen alive again, even his loyal Scotsmen would fear him now. (Greg has clarified that Macbeth and Gruoch would not have been able to get to Luach and Bodhe before they told everyone of his death here http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=13090 )

But given that a similar enduring tale existed about King Arthur not being dead, and in fact, returning one day to lead Britain again (one which I would argue is similar to the Christian belief that Jesus Christ will one day return, which is also accepted positively among its believers), and given that subscribers to this belief wanted Arthur to return and viewed it as a positive, one has to wonder whether it truly would have been all that bad for him if Macbeth had simply shown up alive again. I would even argue that even if his followers did see him die and come back to life multiple times, as long as he was doing good for the people, this would come to be seen as a positive by his people: their special king who is always there to protect them, and even death cannot stop.

Consider also that while this was several centuries after the time of Arthur, it was still somewhat early in the Medieval period, and the Catholic Church still had not stamped out enduring pagan beliefs in the supernatural which remained stronger in Britain than in other parts of Europe.

Do you think maybe Gruoch jumped the gun a little?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2016 9:01:26 pm EDT from 76.118.36.78

Paul> Well, you used 4: The Emperor and The Fool can also be 22, so I'd say starting with The Magician is pretty settled.

It amuses me how much I know about the Arcana, Major and Minor both, simply due to their usage in games series I tend to enjoy leading to reading up on the various cards and decks.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2016 1:29:19 pm EDT from 104.129.196.119

And would we start with 0: The Fool, or 1: The Magician?
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2016 12:10:21 pm EDT from 73.176.251.27

Matthew> I'm all for it, though I seriously doubt we could get through all 22 trumps.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2016 8:51:41 am EDT from 104.129.196.119

Maybe we should do a Tarot theme next week.
Matthew
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2016 9:08:17 pm EDT from 64.85.229.140

Masterdramon> You really sure you can claim that in the age of computers and the Internet, Masterdramon?

Paul> Despite the various math references, your usage of the Major Arcana pleased me the most this week. Thanks for that.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2016 4:43:11 pm EDT from 104.129.196.119

The numerical base most frequently used today!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If man won't kill God...THE DEVIL WILL DO IT!" - Lex Luthor
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2016 3:06:00 pm EDT from 75.85.71.80

A six turned upside down.
Matthew
From far, from eve and morning, And yon twelve-winded sky, The stuff of life to knit me, Blew hither: here am I. -A.E. Housman
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 11:13:36 pm EDT from 64.85.229.140

Infinity standing upright.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 8:20:54 pm EDT from 68.231.85.113

The most magically powerful number.
Ross
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 6:28:35 pm EDT from 68.38.27.228

The number of man.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you've ever taken a road trip through the Pacific northwest, you've probably seen a bumper sticker for a place called Gravity Falls. It's not on any maps, and most people have never heard of it. Some people think it's a myth. But if you're curious, don't wait. Find it. It's out there somewhere in the woods. Waiting.
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 1:25:56 pm EDT from 97.91.211.217

Beethoven's Fifth.
Green Lantern's Nightlight
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 11:42:28 am EDT from 92.233.93.177

The Emperor.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 10:16:50 am EDT from 73.176.251.27

Tertius!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 9:51:11 am EDT from 104.129.196.119

Second!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 9:04:15 am EDT from 68.231.102.71

One(1st)First!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2016 1:45:00 am EDT from 108.198.141.242