Comments for the week ending August 12, 2002

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i'm glad we are putting some effort into thinking and implementing this Ask Greg solution.

i have one comment, if the Ask Greg queue is wiped, please give me (and everyone) fair warning a couple days at least...

lets keep it up and get this problem solved!
matt
Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:01:07 PM
IP: 207.230.53.8

Beauty and the Beast> GOD I hated that show!! But hey, if that could be resurrected, I guess anything can.
TGC q's> Yep, delete them all. We can even do it with a clear concience and say they had story ideas. Well, it's true. And what the hell is up with that CAPS LOCK guy pimping the Gargoyle game around in Ask Greg. That just isn't appropriate. Mabye if he said: "What do you think about this game. . ." It could pass, but Ask-Greg isn't a personal advertising forum.
And then there's the guy who is trying to yell at Greg for making smart-ass responses. Damn man, most of his smart-ass responses are directed at stupid questions, stop the stupid q's and you'll stop the smart ass responses. That one aught to be deleted too.

Ask Greg> All good suggestions, but we really need a way to implement them don't we. Most of the questions have already been cleared by Todd. I guess we should use these measures only when the Queue gets way too big. Like a DEFCON 1 situation. I wonder if Ask Greg will ever go back to being in Defcon 5. But whatever. The Queue keeps etting longer, and Greg's updates keep getting shorter (because answering retarded questions can really drain you), so this situation is deteriorating fast. I'm all for just wiping the Queue. We could just jot down the intelligent questions and re-ask them, and if the people who asked their questions don't notice, they probably wouldn't have stuck around for their answer anyway. I think many of these people thing Greg has nothing better to do than spend all of his time answering these questions and they will get response in a few days, mabye a week. We need to clear up that misconception. We also need to tell people that Greg doesn't E-mail people personally.
Jimmy
Sunday, August 11, 2002 08:28:34 PM
IP: 172.128.90.222

Re: staff answering questions --

Easy way to handle this is to automate it.

New questions go into a queu. Staff reads new questions. If it's a question that Greg has answered before, the staff member goes click-click-click through a listing of previous answers by Greg, finds Greg's previous post, selects it, hits "send" and the new question goes to a folder of staff-answered questions with a link to Greg's previous answer. (Or better yet, it is emailed back to the person and doesn't waste bandwidth on the server.)

If it's a NEW question that Greg's never addressed before, or something Greg's doing like a contest or whatever, the staff member hits a button labled, "Send to Greg." and it gets zipped off to Greg's queu for him to answer. :)

-- Oh, and on a completely different topic -- I just got a bit of juicy fannish news. Not Gargs related, but interesting -- some of you may remember CBS' 1987 series Beauty and the Beast, the one with Linda Hamilton as Catherine and Ron Perlman as Vincent. Well, UPN is apparently developing a spinoff, centered around Vincent's son Jacob, now a teenager. It's not a sure thing yet, but sounds REALLY hopeful. (As in, there's confirmation that if it goes ahead, Perlman will be reprising his role.)

Hey, if *they* can get a new series, that gives me hope for Gargs. I NEVER thought I'd hear that BatB would be returning to TV; the show was cancelled because the ratings sucked because the writers started doing drugs. (No other explanation for what they did to the show except for the involvement of hallucinogenic substances.)
Leva
Sunday, August 11, 2002 04:44:04 PM
IP: 162.42.9.95

Well, whatever the stance on TGC questions is, I think any *TGS* related questions -like the ones just posted by "BigQuartet"- should be deleted immediately.
Lynati
Sunday, August 11, 2002 04:06:43 PM
IP: 141.156.221.237

ASKGREG - I do agree that the ASKGREG questions asked archive has to be cleaned out a bit especially to help with the vast backlog that has developed; all repeat and FAQ answered questions should be taken out and answered by the staff.

But at the same time the Staff answered ASKGREG questions should be archived somewhere specific in the questions answered archive; perhaps a specific section called Staff Answered with a link in the ASKGREG recently answered questions section so that the people who asked them can see the answers but so at the same time it is kept seperate of what Greg himself has actually answered.

This should all just be a temporary solution until Gore finishes remodeling ASKGREG. At that point a new way of submitting questions can be instituted; or at least some way can be found to keep these repeat/FAQ questions from clogging the system. (Maybe something more specific has to be put on not only the main ASKGREG site but also on the main S8 page; its obvious that people aren't reading the FAQ. We have to find a kind, gentle way to encourage them to do so or to at the very least ask here first.)

But at the same time we do have to be careful here though with this sorting. We don't want to chase away casual viewers/lurkers/posters. Any questions that are legal to be submitted should be answered even if they are repeat or FAQ questions. We don't want people who asked the questions, even if the questions do get on the nerves a bit, to think that they submitted them for nothing. We don't want to chase people away after all. Some people are new to the show too after all. We should just find a way to encourage them to read the FAQ and direct some questions in here first unless it happens to be original or something we might not have an answer to or a rant on one of Greg's ramblings. I am not in favor of outright deleting these repeat/FAQ questions at all.



DPH - You wrote: [To be honest, I wouldn't mind if certain timeline related questions being reasked whenever Greg's timeline gets changed. But other than that, if it's in the FAQ section, there is no need to reask the question.]

Well, if he's making a change to the timeline then the old question does technically become a new one. So that's not so much a repeat question since the information has changed. The real problem rests with stuff that a glance at the FAQ or asking in here could easily answer while not adding to the massive ASKGREG backlog.

You wrote: [I especially believe that questions about the Goliath Chronicles (other than "The Journey") should be deleted almost as quickly as said question is posted.]

I disagree. It would really depend on the type of TGC question that is being asked. There are some original questions that can come out of TGC questions. And although it isn't within Greg's continuity, it might just be most of what the person has seen; I think that some leeway should be given.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 10, 2002 10:41:17 PM
IP: 12.88.86.26

Again, I'm offering to help with the Ask Greg situation, if help is needed.
and on a related note, looking at the huge amount of silly questions posted within the last week alone, I think it might be a good idea to put the question que on hiatus again.
Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Saturday, August 10, 2002 09:19:09 PM
IP: 141.156.178.39

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if certain timeline related questions being reasked whenever Greg's timeline gets changed. But other than that, if it's in the FAQ section, there is no need to reask the question.

I especially believe that questions about the Goliath Chronicles (other than "The Journy") should be deleted almost as quickly as said question is posted.

I think putting a limit on the number of questions would work well in combination with a feature that searches the archive for the answer to your question after you submit it so that follow-up questions wouldn't be months behind the original question. If that doesn't work, I would like some feature that would allow follow-up questions to get through quicker.
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, August 10, 2002 09:07:33 PM
IP: 204.94.193.13

JIM R. - Interesting idea. If we do adopt it, I'll most likely be one of the small group of people engaged in handling the "over-asked" questions, since I'm the one who currently clears questions for Greg.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 10, 2002 08:50:59 PM
IP: 65.57.58.108

For instance, I just saw this question in the Ask Greg queue: "Does Avery Brooks do the voice for Goliath? If not, then who?"

Now that type of question is obviously something easy that any true Gargoyles fan in here could answer and would make Greg's life so much easier. And there a bunch of them identical to the nature of that question. We all know Keith David voiced for Goliath, not Captain Sisko! (despite Gargoyles relationship with Star Trek) :)

Something has to be done. It takes about two minutes to load the queue page. Now's that's pretty bad for mostly text and tables.
Jim R.
Saturday, August 10, 2002 08:49:51 PM
IP: 65.164.16.168

Matt is right. Someone has got to get in contact with Gorebash or someone who does something with Station 8. I'm assuming that Greg has some login rights (a user name and password) to access his questions to answer here. What has to be done, is for a small group of maybe two to four people who could help Greg answer (or rather get rid of) his more FAQ and those stupid questions that anyone who would've watched the series could easily figure out and to which Greg would most likely find pointless to answer.

Those people would undoubtedly need to also have login rights so that they could go into the queue and begin plugging away at the questions they know they could answer for Greg.

The only problem with this suggestion is that answering, say, a stupid question that is at the end of the queue (maybe asked today) would put it ahead of any intelligent question that might be at the beginning of the queue (maybe asked several months ago). This will defeat the purpose of the queue system, temporarily, but in the long run it could save Greg alot of time and he'd be able to answer the more intelligent or curious questions that haven't been asked a million times over and over again. Indeed, I think the benefits outweigh the negatives and I do believe Greg would agree.

Now the only thing that has to happen to get the ball rolling, is for a few extremely smart, fanatic, and knowledgable Gargoyles Station 8-goers to volunteer their time and get in contact with Gore and make the proposal. Also, they'd have to make sure this whole ordeal is even *possible* and that it's OK with Greg.
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Saturday, August 10, 2002 08:36:42 PM
IP: 65.164.16.168

lets work quick guys and girls... Ask Greg is getting full of more FAQ and ridiculous questions by the day! *sigh*
matt
Saturday, August 10, 2002 02:48:21 PM
IP: 207.230.53.36

TODD - You wrote: [Actually, I've occasionally wondered why Xanatos would have Coyote programmed for vengeance, given that as we all know, Xanatos considers it foolish.]

I've always figured that Xanatos had the original Cyoti programmed for vengeance because that's what he expected that the Gargoyles would expect from him. Goliath and the others are still very much in a 10th century mindset when Cyoti is introduced; they see "villain" as being completely evil in the stereotypical manner - sort of like the Archmage, a person who wants domination, power, and vengeance above all else.

You wrote: [One would have thought that he'd consider supplying Coyote with such a motive almost self-defeating.]

Revenge in general is self-defeating. But it was a motivation that moved Cyoti to free the Pack and organize them against the Gargoyles, thus testing it in a variety of ways for Xanatos. In that way it was a successful motivation.

And don't forget that ultimately all the testing of Cyoti's abilities is secondary; his main goal is to get Fox out of prison sooner; the Pack is a loose end once Cyoti gets them out - a revenge angle keeps them a force that Xanatos can continue to manipulate through Cyoti.

You wrote: [Of course, we don't know how the next Coyotes were going to be made. I certainly don't think that Xanatos would be going after the clan (or even setting up the semblance of going after the clan), since it wouldn't be necessary.]

The main thing is that we don't know if Cyoti 5.0 was already built and programmed before events turned around and restored the Gargoyles to the Castle. That would make a big difference. We also don't know how much of the previous 4 versions of Cyoti would be in the fifth one - would it be a complete blank or would it have the memories of the others? And if it did would it continue to follow through on that core programming?

As for Xanatos setting something up to further solidify the Clan's desire to stay in the Castle by using Cyoti, I don't really buy the idea either. But it does sound like something that is classic Xanatos, doesn't it? Still you are right - it would be counterproductive and have more risk than gains since the Clan is already at the Castle; alienating them without them having the ability to leave again would cause too many difficulties.

You wrote: [Why send the Pack after them again - especially since he'd be high up on the clan's suspects list if the Pack did show up as enemies once more?]

I don't know about that - if the Pack showed up, they would have more than enough reason to want to fight/attach the Clan without Xanatos being involved. (They might suspect something but since its likely that we'll have an independent battle with Cyoti 5.0 that would establish him as independent from Xanatos and it would be Cyoti 6.0 that forms the Ultra-Pack, I don't think that they would turn to blame Xanatos right away, other than in the generic "Damn it, it's all your fault in the first place!")

You wrote: [Greg did indicate that the next Coyote robot would be somehow involved with Coldsteel/Iago; perhaps Coldsteel would have found some way of building a new Coyote robot, using information stolen from Xanatos Enterprises (not too difficult, given that he's a product of it himself), for his own goals.]

I think that it might be more likely that Coldsteel would probably find a built up and ready to go but not turned on Cyoti 5.0 rather than building one himself. Or it might even be likely that Cyoti 5 might have come on line somehow and sought out Coldsteel as a sort of "kindred spirt" - if he's not exactly sentient but on the road to becoming so then seeking out "relatives" might be a first step.

You wrote: [Greg indicated also that Coyote 6.0 would be behind the building of the Ultra-Pack; perhaps it does that as a test of its own abilities, to see what it's capable of achieving.]

Or it could be that some of his original programming is present in all versions of him - and part of the original programming in Cyoti 1.0 is to gather the Pack together and lead them against the Gargoyles.

You wrote: [Remember, in particular, that the last two Coyotes that he built (in "Grief" and "Cloud Fathers") weren't even being initially used against the gargoyles;]

True. On the other hand Cyoti 4.0 does mention that he does have the programming for vengeance. Just because his objective was shifted by orders from Xanatos doesn't mean that this core programming was gone. Cyoti 3 and 4 were more in a shift of priorities state than in a non-vengeance mode so to speak. What would they have done if they had been independent of specific orders? Would he have reverted to core programming?

(Cyoti 3.0 didn't want to do anything to the Gargoyles without specific orders since he wasn't programmed to deal with them but that could be more a conflict of current objective against core programming. If he didn't have a mission then it could be that he would have reverted to core programming. It might have been the conflict between the current orders and the core programming that lead him to decide the way he did in GRIEF. But if Cyoti 5 and up don't have that conflicting mission statement then they might shift more to core programming.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:45:49 AM
IP: 12.88.89.119

TODD> Well, Greg did mention that Xanatos programmed Coyote for vengeance mostly to make sure the robot stayed focused.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, August 10, 2002 12:26:59 AM
IP: 216.179.5.177

Actually, I've occasionally wondered why Xanatos would have Coyote programmed for vengeance, given that as we all know, Xanatos considers it foolish. (Of course, he may have considered it necessary for those Coyote robots who were working with the Pack, since revenge is the sort of thing that the Pack does understand). One would have thought that he'd consider supplying Coyote with such a motive almost self-defeating.

Of course, we don't know how the next Coyotes were going to be made. I certainly don't think that Xanatos would be going after the clan (or even setting up the semblance of going after the clan), since it wouldn't be necessary. After all, the gargoyles are already in the castle, and I doubt that they'd leave, if for no other reason than the fact that they don't have any other options. Who else can give them sanctuary in New York? (Elisa would, but she doesn't have the resources to keep the Quarrymen out - not on the level, at least, that Xanatos does). Why send the Pack after them again - especially since he'd be high up on the clan's suspects list if the Pack did show up as enemies once more?

Greg did indicate that the next Coyote robot would be somehow involved with Coldsteel/Iago; perhaps Coldsteel would have found some way of building a new Coyote robot, using information stolen from Xanatos Enterprises (not too difficult, given that he's a product of it himself), for his own goals. Greg indicated also that Coyote 6.0 would be behind the building of the Ultra-Pack; perhaps it does that as a test of its own abilities, to see what it's capable of achieving.

Of course, don't forget, also, that Xanatos had a lot more on his goals list than just the gargoyles - indeed, they were more frequently "secondary objectives" in his schemes. He'd still be seeking immortality. He'd still have rivalries with the other corporations in New York (especially Nightstone Unlimited). He'd also no doubt be at odds with the Illuminati, since they want the gargoyles and he's not willing to surrender them. Remember, in particular, that the last two Coyotes that he built (in "Grief" and "Cloud Fathers") weren't even being initially used against the gargoyles; rather, they were built for schemes involving Anubis and Coyote the Trickster respectively, and he hadn't expected the gargoyles to show up in either of those plots.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 9, 2002 06:59:12 PM
IP: 65.56.175.194

Tiny Ask Greg update!


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Friday, August 9, 2002 12:06:09 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [True, but at first they did believe that Coyote (not Cyoti) was Xanatos. They were just as surprised to discover Coyote was a robot as we were.]

True. My point is just that they can restrain themselves when its in their interest or their desire to do so.

(And as for the spelling of Cyoti, I know that its supposed to be the same way as Coyote the Trickster. I put it as Cyoti in my posts first because it makes it easier to immediately identify which Coyote I'm talking about and second its just a shorter version to type out.)

You wrote: [Just as helpless as any other nation. At first, Earth is just another planet absorbed into the Space-Spawn Empire. If Earth becomes more trouble than it's worth, the Space-Spawn will evacuate it, and destroy it. Makes a Resistance even harder.]

True. But my point is that the resources would still be there; smaller nations might still have teeth to use in resistance even if they might not have the desire or will to do so.

But also we have to consider that Samson is going to eventually start some sort of resistance up. If resistance is completely impossible because of fear of retribution then what's the point of him starting up? I think that it would take a lot before the threat of planet busting from the Space Spawn really came up. (They would obviously bring it up during the conquest of Earth but there are a variety of other measures that they could use long before they start to go into destroying an entire planet - to put down resistance of a minor planet in the fringe of the universe with such overkill seems a bit much.)

And given that, I think that Samson might find more patrons than just Owen and a few Gargoyle Clans. I think that there might be some nations that would be willing to lend them resources. After all for all the risk there are the gains to consider.

You wrote: [I'm not sure if this would happen, but we do know that the Quarrymen would make a strong comeback.]

I wonder about when thats going to happen. Does it have to be immediate upon the loss of the world's independence or would it happen only after Samson starts up some resistance? Could it be that the Quarrymen comeback is more an Illuminati reactivation of an old project to help keep the Resistance down more than it might be a natural reaction to the general events of Space Spawn conquest?

Still even with a Quarrymen Comeback I think that we might see a strong oppositional force to them show up, arguing the exact opposite of what the Quarrymen are saying. And even with all that it still doesn't take away the idea that some nations might be willing to covertly throw resources to Gargoyle resistance regardless of how they feel or think about them.

You wrote: [Well, the Ultra-Pack is organized and led by Coyote. So I guess it all depends on what Coyote wants to do.]

Would he still be programmed for revenge? (And I've always wondered if his first true step towards sentience was the evolution of that revenge programming into an actual desire for revenge.) Or would it be something else entirely? It could go either way but I'm not so sure that it might be a revenge thing that has him get them together. It could be something else. The real question is how does Cyoti version 5 and up manage to get a new body or even to be activated. While it would be in character for Xanatos to play the Gargoyles against the Pack to solidify his new allience with the Clan, I have to wonder if he would take the risk of doing so. And if its not Xanatos who's going to act like Xanatos then we need to look for the nearest Xanatosian figure - which might have a Cyoti thing be a Thailog idea.



JIMMY - You wrote: [All marvel turned to crap in mid-1990's. But the qality is coming back up.]

Its true that Marvel went to hell in the 1990s. And quality is coming back up on some books. But others remain hopeless. X-books tend to be in the hopeless category. Even the ones where they did a reboot (the Ultimate line) they managed to screw it up. The time when I expected quality is over. Right now they have me only flipping through the books only based on strong characters. And even that they are killing. Have you seen what they've been doing to Fantastic Four? A few good issues aside, its a mess. At least I can say that they aren't pumping out ton after ton of useless mini-series which just end up wasting tons of paper.

You wrote: [The X-books lack direction right now, but X-treme X-Men seems to be leading up to an M. Night Shyamalan-ish ending that ties everything together.]

My understanding is that the entire idea of that X-team was to find Destiny's diaries and figure them out to avoid all hell breaking loose. And that they haven't even bothered with it or even gotten to it in something like 6 months to a year of stories. So essentially its been heroes vs villains for months without even being related to the main premise upon which this entire team was formed and kept together in the first place. Thats one of the reasons that I feel that its directionless and that Claremont's a bit burned out.

You wrote: [And have you read Exiles?]

I haven't been buying it but I have flipped through most of the issues. It is an interesting idea and has had some good stories. Its not perfect and sometimes suffers from Quantum Leap syndrome; but it is one of the better X-books out there. But I don't really consider it to be an X-book so to speak - the characters are friendly and happy and trying to make an actual difference. They only happen to have been taken out of various alternate X-continuities; otherwise they are too cheerful to really be considered an X-team of any sort. :-)



TODD - You wrote: [Actually, I didn't have gargoyle/human relations in mind when I posted my piece on "Gargoyles 2198", but only the Space-Spawn conquest.]

I only threw that part in about Human reaction to Gargoyles after the Space Spawn conquest because it is basically heavily interconnected with the events of the Conquest itself.

We know that Samson would eventually lead a resistance and its hard to believe that every nation is going to be passive and subdued. And its hard to swallow that the entire world is going to turn against all Gargoyles in massive 1990's numbers. (I have to wonder how many people in the world still don't believe that Gargoyles and New Olympians exist - after all we're talking about small populations that are living in specific areas. I doubt that someone in the middle of South America or in Siberia or Central Africa is going to have ever seen a Gargoyle or New Olympian. Which could make blaming them easier and harder to do at the same time.) So it makes sense to bring up the nature of Gargoyle/Human relations - how would both sides react? How would both sides help and hurt each other? Would they use each other? Would Samson be as philosophical as Goliath or would he be a bit more cynical and willing to deal and seriously compromise to achieve his goal? Would a small, heavily armed nation without any Gargoyles in it be willing to give resources to a Gargoyle resistance with the Gargoyles being accused of being collaberators and instigators of revolution at the same time? Would Humans who aren't associated with the Gargoyles to begin with be willing to join them in resistance? Is Human/Gargoyle resistance even possible or is it just a futile effort?

The entire Conquest links itself to the ultimate question of Human/Gargoyle coexistance. Can they both fight for their shared world? Can they ultimately accept each other on this same piece of real estate or was everything Goliath dreamed about just a foolish nonsense? Was Demona ultimately right? The Conquest and the Resistance to it would ultimately have to settle that long standing question in the Civilization of that specific era.

You wrote: [I certainly don't think that *every* single human would turn against the gargoyles; that certainly never happened in the original series.]

I don't think that the entire Human race is going to turn against the Gargoyles. I don't even really think that a large amount of Humanity is going to turn against Gargoyles. A Quarryman movement might be countered by a Pro-gargoyle movement after all. (And this time the Quarrymen don't have the Demon/Animal argument and also don't have a legal violent option since Gargoyles have legal rights.) I think that except for a few pro and anti Gargoyle groups, most of the rest of the world is going to be largely indifferent to the question of Gargoyles. After all they have other things to worry about. The Gargoyles shouldn't really come back into question until they start a resistance, at which point Human cooperation with that resistance becomes a question that needs to be answered.

The question really is just how many people believe that Gargoyles exist in the world even in 2198? The nations where they live would have to believe they exist because they would be dealing with them; and the modern nations that grant them rights as a sentient race would have to believe that they exist to grant them rights. But why would someone in the middle of nowhere (and I still think that even with huge developments in technology, the world is still going to stay much the way it is, with some parts underdeveloped and some parts overdeveloped - more of the same in other words) who hasn't seen a Gargoyle ever even bother to start thinking about them or waste the energy to start hating or blaming them? Gargoyles, Space Spawn - would it really matter if your too busy trying to get by in the world and your personal world isn't changing that much since it didn't matter too much to begin with who was in control to you?

You wrote: [Remember, they also lose all the world leaders at the same time. That would certainly add to the chaos as well as the complete shut-down for the entire planet. And no doubt a lot of the replacements for them would be weak and cowardly sorts who are all too ready, when faced with a crisis, to just hoist the white flag and surrender]

True. But at the same time that also means that we might get some strong, imaginative types to replace what has been lost. I can see the loss of leadership effect the conquest of the Earth - it made it much easier to take over when there is no leadership to lead any resistance. And while I can see the Illuminati trying to keep it that way, making sure that no leaders arise, I can't see them succeeding. People will rise with the times. It may take some time for it to happen but it does happen. Samson is a clear example of this. I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't happen in other places and in other nations.

(Plus what are the odds that there wouldn't have been some vice presidents and foreign ministers who stayed at home while the Leaders were away? And what are the odds that all of them would be weaklings and cowards? I have to think that there would be at least some who if not outwardly willing to risk fighting the Space Spawn would be willing to covertly help others fight them.)

You wrote: [No doubt, the Illuminati, once they become quislings, would help out, given their "movers and shakers" position. Things like, say, getting the news media to broadcast a lot of "Space-Spawn propaganda"]

By 2198 people are going to believe everything they see on television (or whatever ends up replacing it)? :-)

Propoganda takes time to work - unless the Illuminati had been laying the groundwork for a conquest for years prior to the actual conquest. Otherwise it would take time and effort after the conquest to subdue the will of the people.

I do see the Illuminati helping the Spawn in the manner you've mentioned but I can't see a large portion of the world swallowing it at least at first. Maybe after a few years of control.

Its more likely that they'd look for someone to blame and while some might turn to the Gargoyles in the series as a scapegoat (that's where Quarryman support would come from) I think that its more likely that alot of blame would land on the UN and its leadership, including whoever ends up signing the surrender papers. (Sort of like in CREST OF THE STARS. Its an anime that starts out with the conquest of an entire world - basically the leader of the world in question knows he can't win against the overwhelming force of the aliens and so agrees to surrender if the aliens make him king of the planet and his family royalty; the aliens agree and the people of the planet which was sort of democratic end up a bit upset with it all. That last bit was probably the biggest understatement of how they react that I've ever posted. :-) )

In fact I think that conquest might actually splinter what little unity the world might have been able to build up in the prior 200 years. The UN wouldn't be a credible force anymore, the Gargoyles would be on their own, and other than making sure that no one does anything to get the planet blown up, I think that it would be every nation for themselves. (In fact the end of the Conquest could end up with a new UN - which would end up with a new Security Council sort of makeup; the desire to be on that as a permanent member with all the power in the position could be what might motivate some of the smaller, more armed nations to help and supply resistance.)

You wrote: [And, of course, there's also the whole business of the Space-Spawn having planet-destroying technology (and I'm sure that they'd make no secret of that, since it would certainly make the Earthlings a lot more cooperative if they know that the Space-Spawn can annihilate the entire planet if it causes them too much trouble).]

I believe that they'd let people know they have it but all I can see it doing is stop an open war from breaking out. I don't think that it would be a really deter a Resistance. A Resistance movement and its backers are going to make a calcualtion that the Spawn might accept a certain level of unrest as long as it doesn't break out into open war, lead to major strategic loss for them, or become an open threat to them and their homeworld. Otherwise it would be overkill for them to destroy a world that they might need; and they have to be assuming that Earth is needed - otherwise why bother conquering such a backwater? :-)

No doubt it would be scary and might make more nations and people inclinded to not do anything but accept the situation but at the same time resistance is a little bit about risk. I don't see it stopping everyone. In fact I could see this strengthening support of the Gargoyle resistance - funnel aid to the Gargoyles and if things go wrong, they'll take the blame and get wiped out instead of the entire planet. A safer bet than an open war.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 9, 2002 12:04:36 PM
IP: 12.88.115.10

LB> well, I took my words to be joke :P So i didn't really give it much thought :)
Gabriel "gaygole"
Friday, August 9, 2002 09:12:08 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Gabriel> Maybe I'm a loonie, but I'd think it'd just be improbable. After all, if someone were to manually place the keys into his intestines . . . or maybe some sort of teleportation trick . . . not in the least probable, but supposedly possible. ^^
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Friday, August 9, 2002 05:48:03 AM
IP: 67.249.220.61

aaron> if he swallows the keys, he will. ;) It's impossible otherwise.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, August 8, 2002 07:36:55 PM
IP: 66.169.212.157

Gabrial> I promised I would quit using this quote, but... like the horrible redneck sheriff from the first arc of Preacher said "It's possible. It's also possible that I'm gonna s**t me the keys to Graceland tomorrow, but it ain't real likely."

Bud-Clare> <<Good, that'll save me the trouble of posting a counter-rant. :P>> Which is, I think, a good thing.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 8, 2002 06:23:46 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

Greg just answered another question at "Ask Greg" (only one, but still, it's a bit of progress).

AIRWALKER - Actually, I didn't have gargoyle/human relations in mind when I posted my piece on "Gargoyles 2198", but only the Space-Spawn conquest. (I certainly don't think that *every* single human would turn against the gargoyles; that certainly never happened in the original series).

I think that there's another factor to the Earth surrendering to the Space-Spawn in 2198 besides just the loss of the Master Matrix. Remember, they also lose all the world leaders at the same time. That would certainly add to the chaos as well as the complete shut-down for the entire planet. And no doubt a lot of the replacements for them would be weak and cowardly sorts who are all too ready, when faced with a crisis, to just hoist the white flag and surrender (Greg's document indicated that the replacement Secretary-General for the UN who fills in for Alex after he gets captured is just such a person). So, between the loss of the power source for the entire planet and all the world leaders, Earth would be in "sitting duck" mode.

(No doubt, the Illuminati, once they become quislings, would help out, given their "movers and shakers" position. Things like, say, getting the news media to broadcast a lot of "Space-Spawn propaganda" about how the Space-Spawn conquered the planet for its own good, to bring true civilization, order, and peace to it, absorbing it into one big happy family of planets throughout the galaxy to enjoy the benefits of the Space-Spawn Empire - kind of like the Roman Empire's claims that it was conquering the known world to bring the blessings of law and order, and high civilization, to the barbarians who'd otherwise be still wearing animal skins and squabbling with each other constantly).

And, of course, there's also the whole business of the Space-Spawn having planet-destroying technology (and I'm sure that they'd make no secret of that, since it would certainly make the Earthlings a lot more cooperative if they know that the Space-Spawn can annihilate the entire planet if it causes them too much trouble).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 8, 2002 05:43:36 PM
IP: 65.57.62.152

Comics> All marvel turned to crap in mid-1990's. But the qality is coming back up. Strazinski is doin awesome stuff with Spider-Man. It's a shame we still have to deal with Romita Jr.'s art, but Strazinsky is a really good writer. The X-books lack direction right now, but X-treme X-Men seems to be leading up to an M. Night Shyamalan-ish ending that ties everything together. And have you read Exiles? That is pretty creative. They took time-displaced X-Men from different time-lines to fix stuff that went wrong in previous time-lines. There was one where the Dark-Pheonix went even razier and killed off all the X-Men and the Exiles had to kill her to stop the end of the universe. It may be rehashed, but it was done quite well.
Jimmy
Thursday, August 8, 2002 03:44:39 PM
IP: 172.155.101.228

TODD> <<For that matter (re the Bronx and Beast business), anybody here think that Demona and Mystique look similar (again because of the coloring)?>> No. Not at all. For one thing they are both very, very different shades of blue. Very different hair. Different fashion sense, and both have a very different air about them.

<<I shudder to think as to what might happen if somebody called Demona a "Mystique rip-off" to her face, by the way. :)>> Same thing that would happen if someone called Demona a "Mystique rip-off" to my face, I can assure you ;)

AIRWALKER> <<Well technically they really let Cyoti outright take it over although Cyoti was always under Xanatos control>> True, but at first they did believe that Coyote (not Cyoti) was Xanatos. They were just as surprised to discover Coyote was a robot as we were.

<<While I can accept that the entire world surrendered, I have to wonder if all the nations of the world would be as helpless as we might think>> Just as helpless as any other nation. At first, Earth is just another planet absorbed into the Space-Spawn Empire. If Earth becomes more trouble than it's worth, the Space-Spawn will evacuate it, and destroy it. Makes a Resistance even harder.

<<Plus I think that the entire world collectively turning against Gargoyles, and the entire Human race moving against them at once is hard to buy>> I'm not sure if this would happen, but we do know that the Quarrymen would make a strong comeback.

<<I'm not saying that they would never appear and be enemies of the Clan; I just think that its more likely that as a group they would move onto a broader stage than just limiting themselves to NYC.>> Well, the Ultra-Pack is organized and led by Coyote. So I guess it all depends on what Coyote wants to do.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:46:41 PM
IP: 216.179.3.152

MATT - You wrote: [well the PAck hated Xanatos too and they let him practically take over the group, so i certaintly think a gargoyle joining up is a possibility!]

Well technically they really let Cyoti outright take it over although Cyoti was always under Xanatos control; and can you really say that Xanatos took over a group that he basically owned and controlled to begin with? :-)

But you do have a point - they restrainted themselves when Cyoti presented them with a good plan to get back at the Gargoyles. (Although Cyoti made a good showing of strength first - and I'm not sure that Gargoyle level strength might cut it in a show of strength against the Pack anymore.) In theory a Gargoyle could join up - I just don't think that he or she would live that long in their company unless they were someone like Coldsteel or Demona. And I can't see either of them joining the Pack. (I could see them using the Pack or hiring them or something like that, but not joining up.)

Besides why have a Gargoyle join the group outright when there are so many other possibilities - besides perhaps using a New Olympian (Proteus may have fit in well and an encounter with the Pack could lead to a lot of interesting questions for the New Olympians and their leaders about the level of Human technology) or a Halfling could be the replacement. It would sort of fit in that the person would ultimately be filling in the spot that Fox has left open; and why not replace one Halfling with another one?

You wrote: [i was always fond of the idea of Redemption Squad vs. The Pack. wouldn't that be awesome!]

It would be interesting to see the specific battle. But it would also be interesting to see how the Pack or specific members of it would interact with Dingo. (I think that a Dingo/Hyena battle might be interesting because it might turn out to be deeper than the usual battles that she had in the series; I really did have the impression that she might have had a thing for Dingo before Cyoti showed up.) On top of all that I would be curious to see how a Fang/Wolf battle would end up - for all of Wolf's strength, he can't fly and doesn't have energy blasts. He might not last long against Fang despite the lack of fighting experience Fang might have.

(To be honest despite the Upgrades, the Pack as a fighting unit has a mixed record; some slight success and more high profile defeats. I do wonder if it is possible to keep upgrading them and not have them become a near undefeatable force if they are led correctly.)



JIMMY - You wrote: [Uncanny X-Men sucks, but have you read Extreme X-men, quality stuff. Except Clairemont has managed to kill of some of the coolest characters: Psylocke, Rogue, and Gambit. but hey, noone dies forever in comic books. Except Gwen Stacey of course.]

I've gone through X-treme X-Men; it strikes me as really lacking direction. Its a far cry from Claremont's 1980's X-Men work. How much a person likes the book tends to depend on how much of a Claremont fan they are; and while I think he did great work at one point, I don't think that he has adapted and changed with the times. Its almost like he's a bit burned out and is mostly recycling his old ideas from Sovereign Seven. Its more the established characters that are carrying the book for him than anything else.

You wrote: [I personally would like to see a human mix it up in the Garg universe without the benefit of super-powers or special armor. That way the Human race doesn't seem like total crap. Some guy that is a peak- human, a ninja or something that can kick a Gargoyle's tail.]

Against a Gargoyle, I can buy a completely Human adversary. (In fact isn't that what we'd essentially get with the Quarrymen - completely Human enemies?)

But fighting against a Mutate or a Cyborg or a Robot, where they are specifically designed to be superior to not only fighting Humans but also to fighting Gargoyles, it is a bit of a stretch to have an unaided, completely Human person win without it being a "I won but barely and I almost didn't make it out alive" scenario. A normal Human against Wolf or Hyena or Cyoti or Jackal winning without some help or augmentation (like Armor) and without lots of prayer and luck should be impossible. Otherwise what's the point to upgrading at all?



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Amazing Spider-man. Joe Straczynski is writing it right now. Is cool. :)]

I've flipped through it; its not so bad. I just was never a huge Spider-Man fan. The movie was good and I like the core story but they really ruined it all by bringing back Aunt May and then trying to play Peter as a single again for a while.

(They just won't let the guy grow up - I know that if they did the book would end but if your going to develop him like they did over the years and then drop all of it one day just to have him as a 29-32 year old adult pretending he's a 15 year old with all the same damn problems he had at that age, it just gets on my nerves. Aunt May dies but no, she can't stay dead - they decide that she's been held captive while an actress who never let on at all that she was not May, even while DYING, took her place. But baby May who was shown to have the possibility of surviving is written out just so that an adult Spider-Man can maintain the appearance of being a 15 year virgin forever.

Straczynski isn't doing a bad job with what he's got but God, the entire 1990's series of books ruined it for me. Either do a reboot or keep going but don't go backward over and over again.

The sad thing is that if they hadn't ruined the Clone Saga then they would have had a perfect vehicle to let Peter continue to grow up and still have a single Spider-Man swinging around. But they couldn't leave well enough alone and just had to make the story so damn convoluted; Marvel has tons of good characters (the Spider-Man movie shows all the potential that the character have) but they just lost me over the years with tons and tons of crap; that's why I switched over to a few DC books (which mainly got cancelled - Young Heroes in Love and the Last Spectre series, not the current Hal Jordan Crap, were good!) and then finally over almost completely to Manga over the years.



MOONCAT - You wrote: [used to be the biggest fan, until it went oogie. I quit at ish #300, and it was a chore to keep it that long. Jim Lee was a decent replacement to C.C. but after that I had to let go. Too painful to watch the destruction of a once great collection of characters.]

I dropped it at the end of Clarmont's first run although I still flipped through occasionally; Onslaught brought me back in - Joe Kelly had potential on X-Men. But then they just had to shift casts and writers constantly; New Characters who were getting developed were forced out and old characters brought in for a feel good 1980's tone. (The Cannonball/Marrow thing could have been interesting - so instead we get more of the Collossos/Shadowcat angst.) They lost me after that; I did try to stick along with the book. But bringing Magneto back as an insane villain, AGAIN, just to make Xavier's do nothing and look good approach seem right and reasonable, completely killed it for me.

They have been trying some new directions recently but you couldn't drag the money out of my pocket to get the new books. (And even with the new directions, all they've done is make it clear that the X-Men are not only useless but also a collection of self-centered, blind to the world asses who are just there to stand around, say smart sounding catchphrases and look good. And I mean all this is in the internal story, not just in how it would appear to a reader of the book.)

You wrote: [the only comics I still get from them are Thunderbolts and Captain Marvel (Peter David rules!) -- The only X-men I can stand currently is the teen version on TV, X-men Evolution.]

I'd probably pick up more of Thunderbolts and Spider-Girl (I've fallen behind on getting the issues) if they'd just tradepaperback the damn thing. Its a waste of good story to just have it remain in comic booklet format - if its not Tradepaperbacked then its just going to be forgotten by all but a few loyal hardcore fans. Except for one or two Thunderbolt and Spider-Girl stories, none of it is in Tradepaperback and that means that no matter how good it is, unless you picked up and saved all the original issues, you'll never get your hands on a good story. Manga at least gets an eventual Tradepaperback done.

You wrote: [But I so miss the "classic" Claremont X-men]

I loved Classic Claremont X-Men - but now he's seem to have lost the touch. Maybe he just needs more direction from his editor than he's getting. He just seems lost, throwing out either old or vague ideas that go nowhere in his current X-book.

And even as much as I loved the Classic books, I'd still like to see some advancement and quality from that point. From the end of his first run and with only the exception of one or two good stories (Age of Apocalypse, some of Onslaught, the Joe Kelly run) the books have been either complete crap or a repeat of everything done before.



DARKMAGE - You wrote: [Hi Im new to these message boards and just wanted to say hi.]

Welcome! Have a seat and join in the discussion!

You wrote: [I was told by an associate of mine and fellow Gargoyles fan that Disney will be releasing all Gargoyles episodes on DVD in 2003. I was just wondering if any of you have any more information like when in 2003, or will the dvds come in a set or be sold seperatly? Any information you could give is welcome.]

All we know at this point is that Disney will be doing a GARGOYLES DVD in 2003. If it sells well then they will do more. At this point its safe to say that the first DVD will probably be a version of AWAKENINGS (the first 5 episodes of the series); although we don't really know if it will be the TV episode version or the VHS released edited movie version. (Greg Weisman is involved in some way in the DVD developement and Disney tends to put out quality DVD releases so I'm sure we'll get superior product. But at this point other than knowing that a DVD will be coming out, we just don't really have any other information; it'll just be mainly speculation.)

(And speaking of speculation, I personally speculate that they'll probably put the whole first season on DVD for sure since it would essentially be a conversion of their VHS catalog to the new format. But we don't really know as of yet what they will actually do; I just hope that they push it. If they pull another Princess Mononoke with the GARGOYLES DVD then I'm going to be really upset.)



TODD - You wrote: [According to the Gargoyles 2198 document at "Ask Greg", it was powering the entire planet. But it's being kept at New Camelot, which makes me wonder just how probable that situation would be. I would think that if the entire planet was someday to be powered by a single energy source such as the Master Matrix, it would need to be on a piece of neutral ground that no single nation has a claim on.]

We don't really know if New Camelot is considered to be a independent nation or not. It could just be an installation with a Gargoyle Clan and a small population of internationals living there, thus keeping the area neutral. Just because the leadership of that Clan and the people living there accept the principles of Arthur's round table, that doesn't translate into nationhood.

I also find it hard to believe that realistically even if the entire planet was being powered by the Master Matrix, that there wouldn't be a backup source in some nations for those nations. New Olympus alone has to be fiercely independent and would want and need a backup; they strike me as being the most likely to remain highly isolationist and unilateral in nature even after being revealed to the world. And then we have to take into account the other main superpower nations (America, Russia, China, Japan) and the nations that will be in constant to the end of time conflicts (Israel, India, Taiwan) who wouldn't be likely to make themselves completely dependent on one source of power without having at least something to back themselves up with.

I'm skeptical about having anything even near a utopia in two to three hundred years. I can believe that it might be slightly more peaceful, a bit cleaner, and much more technologically advanced but nations will still be nations, nationalism will still be around, conflicts or wars will still happen, and things won't be picture perfect. It's probably be more of the same we have now in a slightly different manner. I still see various Cold Wars, and territorial disputes for example. India and Pakistan, Israel and the Arabs - these aren't conflicts that are going to vanish in a short time; although I could see them transform in nature or ease slightly. But Utopia? In such a short time? With the UN as the slightly unifying force? We'd need something major and catastrophic to so radically change the world that way. And even then it still wouldn't be anywhere near utopia.

You wrote: [At any rate, the fact that the entire planet is rendered helpless and easy to conquer after the Space-Spawn make off with the Master Matrix in 2198 could be seen as a warning against "putting all your eggs in one basket".]

While I can accept that the entire world surrendered, I have to wonder if all the nations of the world would be as helpless as we might think. The Space Spawn would come down hard on New Camelot and on the Major Powers but the minor powers might still have teeth; and together with the Gargoyle resistance and any possible off planet resistance, there is a very good possibility to recoup losses.

Plus I think that the entire world collectively turning against Gargoyles, and the entire Human race moving against them at once is hard to buy. I could see large amounts of people not caring either way since most probably would never have seen a live Gargoyle. And among the rest I don't think that it would be utterly hostile. Some would be and some wouldn't be; but 1996 style mobs isn't something I can see right away. And in terms of nations, it might be the same way - some indifferent, some hostile, some friendly, and some willing to take help from anywhere to get an advantage in the world.

You wrote: [I don't think that the Pack would necessarily leave New York for a long period of time in "Gargoyles"]

I'm not saying that they would never appear and be enemies of the Clan; I just think that its more likely that as a group they would move onto a broader stage than just limiting themselves to NYC. Individually some of them seem to have some sense. Jackal and Hyena didn't go to NYC after the Pack disbanded; they went to work outside the US. And Hyena wouldn't have been in NYC if it hadn't been part of the job. I don't think that she would have show up just to have fun.

Not to say though that they are afraid of going to NYC or of fighting the Clan; but why go someplace where your hunted unless you have a purpose to do so? And while revenge isn't a bad reason to risk going to NYC (like what Wolf did in VENDETTAS) again some of the Pack members have more sense or different priorities; unless they had a specific reason backed up by at least money and some sense of enjoyment, I think that they would stay out of NYC.

You wrote: [yes, they're wanted there, but so are most of the recurring criminals (the three street thugs, Dracon, etc.)]

Dracon's power base is in NYC so he doesn't really have the option of leaving unless he's willing to set up and start over somewhere else. And all those thugs don't exactly have the resources or options to go somewhere else. But the members of the Pack do. They are mercenaries and go where the work is, where the money is, and where the fun is. They don't have to stick around if they don't want to although some members might have more options than others do. (Jackal and Hyena might be better off in terms of resources than Wolf for example.)

You wrote: [As long as they've got a feud with Goliath and his clan going, they'll keep on coming back, and never mind if the police are out looking for them. Those guys are reckless.]

They want revenge but they do have other priorities as individuals. They are mercenaries after all and as the main Cyborgs and Mutates in the World, their services might be highly demanded. Getting a bad reputation by repeatedly being defeated by Gargoyles in Manhattan isn't a good idea to improve job prospects. They might not be looking for a fight at this point although I don't think that they would back away from one if they ran into the Gargoyles.

As a group they are completely reckless. The individual members tend to have more sense (except for Wolf but he has no sense whatsoever) and tend to view self interest above any feud. They might keep coming back and end up fighting the Clan but only if they have an interest other than fighting them; the fight would tend to be the Gargoyles getting in their way like in THE GREEN. Otherwise I don't really see them just showing up in NYC at the Eyrie to fight the Clan just for the hell of it.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:08:32 PM
IP: 12.88.115.148

Of course, we don't know for certain as yet that the Master Matrix of 2198 is the same as the Matrix of "Walkabout" and "Bad Guys" (although it isn't impossible). Judging from its location being at or near New Camelot (and the fact that one of its functions was protecting New Camelot from the harsh climate of Antarctica), I'd say that the origins of the Master Matrix would more likely lie in the events of the "Pendragon" spin-off (although, given how everything is interconnected in the "Gargoyles" Universe, the link to the original Matrix isn't that improbable).

What I've sometimes wondered about the Master Matrix myself, by the way, is this. According to the Gargoyles 2198 document at "Ask Greg", it was powering the entire planet. But it's being kept at New Camelot, which makes me wonder just how probable that situation would be. I would think that if the entire planet was someday to be powered by a single energy source such as the Master Matrix, it would need to be on a piece of neutral ground that no single nation has a claim on. Otherwise, the host-nation could use its control of the energy source to blackmail rivals into submission. (Of course, New Camelot was founded upon King Arthur's ideals, and so isn't likely to descend to such tactics, but I doubt that all the other nations would see it that way).

At any rate, the fact that the entire planet is rendered helpless and easy to conquer after the Space-Spawn make off with the Master Matrix in 2198 could be seen as a warning against "putting all your eggs in one basket". Obviously the speed and ease of the Space-Spawn annexation of Earth is based on the fact that, by stealing the Master Matrix, they knock out all of Earth's defences, all over the entire planet, not to mention all of its communications systems, power, etc. at one blow.

Re the Pack: I don't think that the Pack would necessarily leave New York for a long period of time in "Gargoyles" (although the idea of them turning up in "Bad Guys" makes perfect sense to me); yes, they're wanted there, but so are most of the recurring criminals (the three street thugs, Dracon, etc.). As long as they've got a feud with Goliath and his clan going, they'll keep on coming back, and never mind if the police are out looking for them. Those guys are reckless.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 8, 2002 07:45:00 AM
IP: 63.208.61.193

Hi Im new to these message boards and just wanted to say hi. I was told by an associate of mine and fellow Gargoyles fan that Disney will be releasing all Gargoyles episodes on DVD in 2003. I was just wondering if any of you have any more information like when in 2003, or will the dvds come in a set or be sold seperatly? Any information you could give is welcome.
Darkmage - [darkmage04@yahoo.com]
The Underdark
Thursday, August 8, 2002 02:06:28 AM
IP: 216.117.90.228

X-men - used to be the biggest fan, until it went oogie. I quit at ish #300, and it was a chore to keep it that long. Jim Lee was a decent replacement to C.C. but after that I had to let go. Too painful to watch the destruction of a once great collection of characters.

Mystique, I adored her from the very beginning. Even have the first appearance of her in Ms. Marvel, before we found out she was really a blue skinned red haired mutant. How can you not love a girl with a skull belt and those cool white cloths on that dark blue skin? She just looked kewl.

Marvel - the only comics I still get from them are Thunderbolts and Captain Marvel (Peter David rules!) -- The only X-men I can stand currently is the teen version on TV, X-men Evolution. Such cute charater designs. They made Kitty a peppy cheerleader type... ick much... but otherwise it's decent. Hate how angular they make Mystique look though. Scarlet Witch however is a very cool remake. Quicksilver is still a dip. Scott and Rogue forever!!! heh... I do like that possible pairing.

But I so miss the "classic" Claremont X-men... *nostalgia attack* memory of Kitty and Illyana trying to rescue Nightcrawler by teleporting him back home... and only getting his clothes.

Someone made the analogy of Mystique/Rogue to Demona/Angela, but it should be Mystique/Nightcrawler to Demona/Angela. Though technically, Mystique was supposed to have *fathered* Nightcrawler on her lover Destiny, until Marvel wimped out. Oh well... At 13 I got my first taste of kinky with Claremont's Hellfire Club.

>^,,^<
Mooncat
Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:22:20 AM
IP: 68.102.19.135

Airwalker> "Now the only Marvel books I'd bother to pick up are Spider-Girl and Thunderbolts."
Amazing Spider-man. Joe Straczynski is writing it right now. Is cool. :)

Pack names> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Hellhound. ;)
Cerberus is good, too, though. I can't imagine the new pack member actually having three heads, though. ;)

Well, I'm going out of town for a few days again. You will, of course, wait until I've left to have a fun discussion, as usual. ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 11:16:16 PM
IP: 129.21.10.7

Pack names> How about "Rottweiler" "Bulldog" "Pug" "fluffy?"

Airwalker> Uncanny X-Men sucks, but have you read Extreme X-men, quality stuff. Except Clairemont has managed to kill of some of the coolest characters: Psylocke, Rogue, and Gambit. but hey, noone dies forever in comic books. Except Gwen Stacey of course.

I personally would like to see a human mix it up in the Garg universe without the benefit of super-powers or special armor. That way the Human race doesn't seem like total crap. Some guy that is a peak- human, a ninja or something that can kick a Gargoyle's tail. Represent for those of us who don't have armor, or cybernetics, or genetic whatnot.
Jimmy
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:12:01 PM
IP: 172.134.88.107

Airwalker> "Given the intense amount of hatred the Pack has for Gargoyles, I don't think that one joining that group would be possible." well the PAck hated Xanatos too and they let him practically take over the group, so i certaintly think a gargoyle joining up is a possibility!
i hadn't even considered a New Olympian til you mentioned it. i can just see it: Jackal, Hyena, Wolf, Coyote, and... Cerberus! lol
i was always fond of the idea of Redemption Squad vs. The Pack. wouldn't that be awesome!

later kids...
matt
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 09:33:43 PM
IP: 207.230.53.75

TODD - You wrote: [I hope that Dingo wouldn't get "assimilated" to the Matrix. It makes a refreshing change to have one Pack member (well, in this case, ex-Pack member) who's normal.]

He probably wouldn't be; given that we know his descendents will be in opposition to the Castaway family, it makes the odds good that he's going to remain Human. I was just speculating on the interesting possibilities that exist for him if such a thing did happen. (While it could go either way with the character, I think that it might make for a more interesting situation if he did start to lose his humanity or at least his individuality through his partnership with Matrix; besides complicating his life and possibly any romance with Robyn Canmore, it also helps raise serious questions for him to try and find answers to.)

Of course that doesn't mean that he can't show up in G2198 also. It could be that Matrix might start to take on some of his personality traits to the point that when we reach the time period, Master Matrix will be a robotic version of Dingo. Or alternately we could have a situation where Matrix is backing up copies of Dingo's mind for reference at a later date. Or we could even have a situation where Matrix reaches a level where he's fully sentient and misses the advice and friendship/partnership with Dingo that he creates a program that isn't really Dingo but only everything he remembers about him that he tries to interact with - a more complicated version of talking to yourself so to speak. Although personally the most realistic version is that we'll just get a descendant that looks and sounds like Dingo, sort of like whats with the most of the G2198 cast.

You wrote: [Would he or she have been more like the "pre-Upgrade" Pack - simply a very tough but "ordinary" human - or an enhanced figure in some other way?]

I'm not sure that it would be possible for an unenhanced human to be able to run with the Ultra-Pack. How can a person, even well trained be able to keep up with a Robot, Mutate, and two Cyborgs? It could be that the new member would be a mixing of all the various enhancements of the Pack, thus being the Ultimate leader for an "Ultra" team. It could also be that a new member wouldn't be Human to begin with - we could end up with a New Olympian who would have natural enhancements that would let him or her keep up with the Group. Or perhaps we could end up with a situation where we have an unenhanced Human added in but one who doesn't actually go out on missions with the Ultra-Pack; it could be sort of like a twisted version of the BAD GUYS formula.

(I've always figured that while the Pack would always have a place in GARGOYLES, that given the change in situation in the series that the second season ended on and that it wouldn't really be a great idea for the Pack to keep ending up in NYC where they are wanted anyway, that they might end up moving out to the spin-offs, and particularly to BAD GUYS. This would give the BAD GUY cast a specific villain group to have as an adversary that has links to one of the main characters of that series. While the Pack has remained relatively one dimensional (we don't really know that much about them in the series after all), they do shine in character interaction and in suggestion of interesting possibilities. I've always found the main cast and their interactions to have tons of unexplored potential that could be tapped in BAD GUYS where they would be linked through Dingo. On top of all that given the nature of BAD GUYS (A secret strike group essentially) it would make sense to give them an enemy that is essentially the same thing as well as equally matched.)

You wrote: [I still wonder occasionally what his or her name would have been, given that the Pack had just about used up all the wild dog names.]

Maybe we're looking at the Wild Dog Code Name thing from the wrong angle. What if the new Pack member were something less active, something along the lines of an anti-Director? Then wouldn't it fit the bill to have a character with a Dog sounding last name rather than a code name? Shepherd, or Dunker, or Dane, or something like that as a last name? Fitting the spirit of the Pack even if it isn't an actually code name?



MATT - You wrote: [i think it'd be cool (and its possible) that a gargoyle joins the Pack and becomes Beast (like a garg-beast) it'd be fitting that the gargoyle Pack member would take the name of the gargoyle "wild dog".]

Given the intense amount of hatred the Pack has for Gargoyles, I don't think that one joining that group would be possible. I could see Thailog or Coldsteel buying their services though; but that's a completely different thing than actually being a comrade in arms with them.

Beast as a suggested code name might not be a bad compromise for the situation; Unless we want a Pack member named Poodle or Chihuahua. :-)

You wrote: [i think Iago is the most likely candidate for that spot, both because of his history, his temperment, and most of all, his life span...]

I could see him cooperating with the Pack and being a short term ally to them but I think that he would most likely stay as a GARGOYLES central villain to give some variety to the series instead of having it all be Gargoyles versus the Quarrymen. (Besides with Angela around, while it doesn't mean that Demona would be reforming anytime soon, I do think that there might be a slight shift in the dynamic between her and the rest of the Gargoyles. She'd still be scheming and being a villain but she wouldn't be able to do it in the same old way. I think that Coldsteel might have come in as a sort of replacement for her as a central Clan breakaway villain. I really did get the feeling that he was being set up as a replacement for Demona as Brooklyn's main source of hate for sure.)



ANON - You wrote: [But they're blue! :D]

Actually to be more specific, Beast is a normally colored human with thick blue fur that makes him appear to be blue while Bronx is actually blue. (And that stuff about Beast might not really be accurate anymore either; the recent X-Men comics have mutated him into something more animalistic and less mutated human. I'm not entirely sure because I only occasionally flip through the books in the comic shop; I wouldn't bother wasting my money on the crap X-Men solidified into. God, I used to like reading that series. Now the only Marvel books I'd bother to pick up are Spider-Girl and Thunderbolts. And even on those, I'm not too sure. I'd rather spend money on Manga - more material for your money, more story, and usually better story.



LYNATI - You wrote: [needs to lead to a page that says "WAIT. Are you absolutely sure you can't find the answer online? The backlog is currently eight months long. If you can find your answer within eight months, please don't post the question here." And below THAT have a link to the question-posting place.]

That might be a little too much overkill; we don't want to make it too difficult to be able to submit an answer or casual people who find the site might just lose interest in submitting anything at all.

It might be good as a substitute for the third link line that I suggested although I do think that given that we should keep things simple and to the point - a choice to either check info themselves in the FAQ (choice 1), ask us here in the Comment Room for the answer (choice 2) or if its something that hasn't been answered or is something original then submit it to Greg (choice 3).



ALLAINE - You wrote: [but since Fox was a Halfling long before she joined up, then her membership was nothing more than a coincidence.]

Technically yes, she was a Halfling long before she joined the Pack. But she doesn't really know that she was anything but Human up until THE GATHERING 2. And while technically it wasn't the Pack or anything to do with the Pack that changes her from being Human to a Halfling, she's still another member of that group that is no longer fully Human. How long can Dingo really completely fight the trend? :-)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 09:18:04 PM
IP: 12.88.89.226

Coldfire> "Mystique has always reminded me of Demona. "

Heehee, while we were watching the movie my sister and I were commenting on what Rogue and Angela have in common- both have mommies with blue skin and red hair, who hate humans...

Eagerly anticipating the next X-Men movie...
warrioress
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 08:33:28 PM
IP: 64.219.129.10

Todd> Mystique has always reminded me of Demona. Of course, in my mind, Demona came first:P
ColdFire
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 08:23:28 PM
IP: 24.78.133.4

Spacebabie and Gabriel> Thanks! :)

Power Rangers with Disney> Oh God!...Please!... Nooooooooooo...say it ain't so...say it ain't so!

X-Men> Personally my favorite X-Men character was Colossus. His supermove in video games was always the coolest and practically took out everyone on the screen. Heh heh. :)
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 07:03:44 PM
IP: 208.17.68.7

For that matter (re the Bronx and Beast business), anybody here think that Demona and Mystique look similar (again because of the coloring)?

I shudder to think as to what might happen if somebody called Demona a "Mystique rip-off" to her face, by the way. :)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 06:41:54 PM
IP: 63.208.63.96

I haven't been here in a very long time, and normally I would dive right into a debate involving Dee, but since it's been officially ruled dead, I'll just hold my peace. (Besides, read ALL those posts? Yikes.)

Just one thing, though --> Impfac> What I love isn't that he compared Dee to Hitler. I mean, that's only been done, what, twenty times? What I love is he equated Goliath to Hitler too. Whoa, how did that happen?

And one other (I dont really have much to say today): Airwalker> "Curse of the Pack" - but since Fox was a Halfling long before she joined up, then her membership was nothing more than a coincidence. Unless the Curse is why she found out she was a Halfling. Oh, I don't know.

Laters ;)

Sincerely, "the man you call when you're broke as a broker", Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 04:45:59 PM
IP: 152.163.213.61

ASK GREG - I like Airwalker's idea for a new setup. But I think the third part-
<The third message should say "This is something only Greg can answer. Just let me ask the damn question! :-)" with a link underneath to the next page which will take you to a copy of the current ASKGREG frontpage where you can submit a question. >
-needs to lead to a page that says "WAIT. Are you absolutely sure you can't find the answer online? The backlog is currently eight months long. If you can find your answer within eight months, please don't post the question here." And below THAT have a link to the question-posting place. (I also think that there should be a place to put an email address, it may encourage people to do so.)
As to weeding questions…I'd actually copied all the questions into a text document, and had started going through it myself with the intent that I could mail it to someone in charge and convince them to take out all the repeated and pointless questions, since they were already highlighted in red in this page, with a reason given for why I thought they should be taken out. I got about 150 questions into it in a day, starting from the most recent posted ones, before a conversation about Ask Greg came up in another place. I wanted to know why they didn't delete the repeats, and asked.The reason they did not want to cut questions was because it would make newbies lose interest if their questions kept getting cut. This was a perfectly reasonable answer, so I halted my project…there seemed to be no point to continue. Although, it did occur to me that having to wait ten months or so for an answer might have the same affect. Anyway, if anyone thinks it would be useful, I can send them the ones I got through, or finish it as well. I might do that anyway.
A friend of mine once commented about how the line has slowed down so much because Greg has mainly been posting rambles…but that if we were forced to deal with the sort of questions overwhelmingly posted there, we'd just be posting rambles, too.

Lynati Kshudra - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 02:16:32 PM
IP: 141.156.172.154

Has anyone seen the new fall Saturday morning lineup on ABC Kids? Among the usual new and returning Disney cartoon shows, they have also scheduled "Power Rangers Wild Force."
The show that helped bring down "Gargoyles" will now be promoted on Disney's own network.
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Grand Rapids, MI
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 12:19:51 PM
IP: 208.224.4.28

Bud Claire thanks for the link here is mine.

"Why can't anyone see that Lain is being watched by Buster? It's all so that Janet Reno, hidden in a secret HQ near The Bathroom can Steal underwear. After that, Buster will Open a StarBucks when the disorder caused by Janet Reno reaches a peak. The only thing we can do is let The Protector put together a militia to stop them. "

Jimmy----"I think you meant to wish Jim R."

D'oh You two confused me. Oh Well happy belated Birthday to Jim R

Lady Baltimor]---"I hope that helped with your topic. J"
Just trying to get a good debate started…Keyword "debate" not an argument or a flame war.

Bud Claire]----"You mean, normal for a guy named "Dingo"? ;) "
His real name is Harry

Oh yeah my site is mostly done for now....mostly
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 12:13:32 PM
IP: 67.25.55.81

That's right, it's not about gargoyles, it's just done by some longtime gargoyles fans.
Aimee - [aimee@aimeemajor.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 11:55:13 AM
IP: 66.121.57.116

Bronx/Beast> sorry, i meant that they resembled each other cuz they are both animal looking guys that are blue...

geez
matt
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 04:58:38 AM
IP: 207.230.48.71

This is really old ,but I agree with IMPFAC, Goliath was a great leader. However I think they should have given Lexington a chance. His was smart ,and capable .Demona would have been good ,if she was not crazy with vengence. Brooklyn would ave been good ,after the time dancer if it actualy happened in the show.
Lex - [waverly_girl@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 12:23:13 AM
IP: 12.147.62.254

hi aimee major i am very intrested in the comic and the shirt thing but i checked it out and it has nouthing to do with gargoyles? please e-mail me if i am mistaken or otherwise thanks1
lex - [waverly_girl@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 12:17:26 AM
IP: 12.147.62.254

Hey guys! Since we are all big gargoyles fans (hey, horns rule...) I thought you guys might want the heads up!

Both Stephanie Lostimolo, Paul Adam and myself have finally completed our own self-published comicbook!

if you are interested, we have copies left over from Comic-Con. The books include one story written and drawn by each of us, and are 48 high quality professionally printed pages with a full color cover and black and white insides.

Each comic will have an original little sketch in the back done by me in thanks. :) I'm also selling prints here:
http://aimeemajor.com/prints/

Also CrzyDemona can make you a tshirt (any size,
white) of ANY of these prints. if interested, just say so!
She also has lots of other designs (including gargoyles ones_ and can make a t-
shirt of your OWN artwork too!!
http://www.artchicks.org

Email me with any questions you might have. We're trying to recoup costs from all the printing and promotional materials so we can eat :P

aimee@aimeemajor.com
Aimee Major - [aimee@aimeemajor.com]
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 11:57:42 PM
IP: 207.233.98.60

I blame Merlin Missy for this.
***********
"The local supermarket is a front for the evil works of Hamtaro. It's part of a national chain of illegal racketeering outlets, whose final aim is to steal all of the world's cookies. They've already claimed victims - everyone from Bud-Clare to Col. Ghadaffi have been caught out. Only Vash the Stampede has seen through the scam, which is why Pikachu, in cahoots with Hamtaro, is trying to steal all the donuts, too, with a view to putting an end to Vash the Stampede. "
************
Go to the funny website:
Bud-Clare
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 10:21:13 PM
IP: 129.21.10.132

Aaron> "<<Ambiguity is a good thing in moderation, but I think maybe Eva went a bit too far.>> Well, they ran out of money. There was supposed to be a second season. That's why I'm happy they got to do the manga."
Seriously? ...It's all starting to make sense now.

"He had to run after he shot Kaji. Any other questions?"
Ah, thank you. Good to know. ;)

"I refuse to be drawn into posting my "Idealists cause all the f**king trouble in the world" rant again."
Good, that'll save me the trouble of posting a counter-rant. :P

Todd> "It makes a refreshing change to have one Pack member (well, in this case, ex-Pack member) who's normal."
You mean, normal for a guy named "Dingo"? ;)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 10:03:22 PM
IP: 129.21.10.132

Patrick> I spent all four days at Comic-Con. And you are not kidding about the Saturday line. It's usually that nuts, but it was still as long at 2PM as it had been at 8AM when I passed by! I've gone for the past six years and I think that attendance must be up a lot from at least the last two years.

Did anyone else other than myself and Jen Anderson (who I didn't get to say hi to, but noticed in the crowd) see Greg on the ROUGHNECKS panel Sunday?
Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 08:26:05 PM
IP: 198.81.16.163

But they're blue! :D
Anonymous
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 07:42:59 PM
IP: 207.126.67.60

I don't think that Beast and Bronx look that much alike. For one thing, Beast is covered with fur and Bronx isn't. And Beast is a biped, while Bronx is a quadruped.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 07:22:53 PM
IP: 65.57.62.71

i'd consider helping out to answer FAQ and weed out the easily answered questions like "is Demona really Anglea's mother?" but first we have to get this set up and then we'll find our staff...

i was thinking about the Pack and i had a cool thought: we have all been trying to figure out what other wild dogs there are out there that are well known enough to become a name of the future Pack Member. i think it'd be cool (and its possible) that a gargoyle joins the Pack and becomes Beast (like a garg-beast) it'd be fitting that the gargoyle Pack member would take the name of the gargoyle "wild dog". i think Iago is the most likely candidate for that spot, both because of his history, his temperment, and most of all, his life span...
come to think of it, its interesting that Beast from X-Men resembles Bronx, the beast from Gargoyles, lol.
matt
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 07:13:58 PM
IP: 207.230.48.103

AIRWALKER - For my part, I hope that Dingo wouldn't get "assimilated" to the Matrix. It makes a refreshing change to have one Pack member (well, in this case, ex-Pack member) who's normal.

(Of course, that does raise the question as to what the new member of the Pack, when it becomes the Ultra-Pack, would have been like. Would he or she have been more like the "pre-Upgrade" Pack - simply a very tough but "ordinary" human - or an enhanced figure in some other way? We'll probably never know now. For that matter, I still wonder occasionally what his or her name would have been, given that the Pack had just about used up all the wild dog names).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 06:48:22 PM
IP: 63.208.47.157

Spacebabie> That would be VERY belated since my birthday is in February. I think you meant to wish Jim R. but it's the thought that counts.
Jimmy
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 06:00:36 PM
IP: 172.133.226.190

aaron> unfortunatley, Okham's theory is practically limited to science. It can't take in the posiiblities that Time and interaction can yield. :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 05:04:42 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Fan> <<No, I mean unfairly blaming, punishing, or killing everything that remotely is related to whom or what you think ruined your life.>> I'm so sorry, I thought we were debating Demona's actions at Wyvern, not her later life.

MoonCat> <<Think we should get buttons made?>> I'll put it on the G2K3 to do list. :) (And let's see if we can't get Jen to reprint those great "Evil Shouldn't Look This Good" T-shirts.

<<Unknown. Probably this is a less easy location for a human to get to, but not impossible. A stout rope and a strong pair of arms and legs. Why not?>> Do you even need to get down there? All you would need, after noticing Demona, would be a medium sized rock or three. Dropped accurately from the height of the castle walls... You could make a game of it. Hit the gargoyle in the head and win a female prisoner or something.

Matt> I think that's the difference between you and Goliath and me and Demona. You can look at those infinite possibilities all you want. I'll concentrate on the few that are likely to happen. My guiding principle is Occam's Razor.

Bud-Clare> <<Ambiguity is a good thing in moderation, but I think maybe Eva went a bit too far.>> Well, they ran out of money. There was supposed to be a second season. That's why I'm happy they got to do the manga.

<<And the question that bothers me the most: What the hell happened to Pen-Pen? ;)>> He had to run after he shot Kaji. Any other questions?

<<No, he put his ideals first. Sue him.>> Oooooooooh, no. I refuse to be drawn into posting my "Idealists cause all the f**king trouble in the world" rant again.

<<Godwin's Law>> That's it. I knew it, I just couldn't remember the name.

Jim R.> <<I think a select few people when they have time should answer some of the very, very FAQ in the Ask Greg queue.>> Excellent idea. Any ideas on who that should be? Any volunteers?


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 03:20:43 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

Spacebabie> The last group of Hunters were a number three, We know that Charles Canmore had an aunt Fiona. Has this happened before??? Like say 300 years ago there were two Canmore brothers. One is Jason's ancestor. The other one also has children...Are there other Hunters? And what about the females, once they marry and if they change their last name do they stop being hunters???

I've gone through the Hunter archives a bit, and I've found a few things relating.


<B>Faieq:</B> At the time of 'Hunter's moon' were Jason, Jon and Robyn Canmore the only descendents of Canmore? Do they have any other family out there that they are unaware of?

<B>Greg:</B> There are probably a lot of Canmore descendants. They probably know some and don't know others, just like anyone. But they were the three who had carried on the tradition of the Hunter.
(04-07-00)

<B>Scott Iskow:</B> For those Hunters over the years who got married: What kind of relationship did they have with their spouse? Was there an understanding of the Hunter's need to kill mythical creatures, or did the Hunter keep it secret?

<B>Greg:</B> You're generalizing. There's an individual story in every Hunter.

<B>Scott Iskow:</B> Were there other instances before Jason, Robyn, and Jon in which more than one Hunter existed at the same time?

<B>Greg:</B> Probably not, otherwise they aren't unique. But I don't pretend to know ALL the stories yet.
(04-07-00)


If the bold tags don't work . . . well, I'll know not to use them in the future.

I hope that helped with your topic. :)
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 11:55:02 AM
IP: 67.249.220.72

<<Eep... I think this is the most massive Demona debate I've ever seen. O.o>>

I have seen longer ones hehe... There was a HUGE one two years ago. It lasted for 2 weeks :/

John Cronin - [jcronin@bellsouth.net]
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 10:57:57 AM
IP: 65.80.17.130

First of all I like to wish a happy BELATED Birthday to Jimmy.

I had this strange dream last night. In the dream we actually HAVE Toon Disney, although we didn't know it at the time. I grabbed the controller, the tv came on and the channel was Toon Disney.
"When did we get this?" The Boy asks.
"I dunno." Was my response. Well we saw what was coming up next.
"Oooh leave it!" Dad shouted So I was getting ready to sit back when the credits rolled.
"Aww poop" I said.
"What?" The boy asks.
"It's the Goliath Chronicles" Then I had to explain about Greg leaving then we saw the episode title
"Oh Its the Journey. This is the last episode Greg worked on."

I'm hoping this is one of my premonition dreams.
Debate seemed to have died down

i'll bring up a topic.
The last group of Hunters were a number three, We know that Charles Canmore had an aunt Fiona. Has this happened before??? Like say 300 years ago there were two Canmore brothers. One is Jason's ancestor. The other one also has children...Are there other Hunters? And what about the females, once they marry and if they change their last name do they stop being hunters???


Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 10:48:34 AM
IP: 67.24.94.79

Happened to find this, and thought it was funny. (But don't anyone even _think_ of saying "See? I told you so." Just read it, smile, and move on.)

"Godwin's Law, prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups."

I found it at this website:
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 6, 2002 02:29:09 AM
IP: 129.21.10.120

:: peeks in ::

Eep... I think this is the most massive Demona debate I've ever seen. O.o

I'm back from the San Diego Comic Con. I had a really good time and did a LOT of walking. Almost unbelievable how many people were there, too. When I saw that line of walk-ins wrapping up the block on Saturday morning, I was REALLY glad I had pre-registed.

I might try to post a small Comic Con diary later in the week... right now I need to reset myself to eastern time by going to bed so I can get back to work tomorrow. Work... blech.

:: wanders off ::
Patrick Toman
Monday, August 5, 2002 10:28:23 PM
IP: 67.38.251.251

Hi Scylla,

I don't know any Garg RPs first hand, but I know there are a few of them in the Yahoo Groups email lists. If you do a search for Gargoyles, you will have to look through a few pages of listings but they are mixed in there.

I think free form is best in a mailing list format, or a message board format. Too difficult to get a group together at the exact same time to play real time on line. Mailing list and MB format gives you a bit to think about your playing posts too.

You may want to search through ezboard.com too, a lot of garg message boards there and someone may have started a RP.

Good luck.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 5, 2002 08:49:49 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

It was recommended that I post a comment here about looking for a game, so, here it is. Please excuse me if I'm interrupting a conversation.
I am in search of a Gargoyles RPG to join. I'd prefer something in a chat room (such as IRC), but I'm not picky. I'm familiar with d20 rules, but am skilled in free-form and would be willing to learn other rule systems. Please e-mail me if you would like me to join your game.
Thanks for your time.
Scylla - [scyllaadell@hotmail.com]
TX, USA
Monday, August 5, 2002 07:11:42 PM
IP: 67.98.161.252

ASK GREG - I think that rather than being able to just submit a question from the main ASKGREG page, that instead there be a link in its place that says something like "Click to Ask Greg a Question".

That will then take you to a page with a three messages and three links. The first message will say in big letters "Have You Read the FAQ? It May Answer your Question! Take a Look" and has a link to the FAQ under it.

The second message should say "If the FAQ doesn't answer your question then Ask the Fans! They know more than you might think! :-)" with a link underneath to this Comment Room where we can answer the specific questions. (It might even lead to some good debate and get some people to the room who might not otherwise stop by.)

The third message should say "This is something only Greg can answer. Just let me ask the damn question! :-)" with a link underneath to the next page which will take you to a copy of the current ASKGREG frontpage where you can submit a question.

This might take a little longer for those of us who don't want to submit repeat questions but it'll help cut down the backlog and might get some new people into the Comment Room.

(Of course that doesn't help the current backlog which I think should be gone through, have all repeat and FAQ questions answered on the spot by the staff and put into the questions answered archive with a note that the Staff answered it thus leaving original non-repeat questions and rambling comments for Greg. Meaning a 6 month backlog instead of a 10 month one :-) )



LAST WEEK DEBATE - I think that it might be a good idea to move on and let this topic go quiet for now. (Demona topics don't die, they just fade away to come back later and try to destroy the world :-) ) Its raised a lot of passions and while it has been for me a very interesting, enjoyable debate, now might be a good time to take a break from it. Half the point of posting here is to have some fun doing it - let's not take this too seriously. It's only Demona we're talking about after all :-) :-) :-) :-)



Let's start a new topic. How about a BAD GUYS topic? (I've been thinking about it since the TGS version thats in production was mentioned in the newsgroup.) I've been wondering about Dingo. Anyone think that he would be able to maintain his physical humanity for that much longer if his plot was continued instead of just stopping with WALKABOUT?

I keep wondering about Matrix, the fact that its described as a group mind, and the fact that it mentioned that it was "one" with Dingo at the end of WALKABOUT. Adding Dingo to the mix for it is just like adding yet another mind to the group. But the merger is incomplete. Dingo hasn't exactly been assimilated; instead Matrix merged with his exo-frame and is working and learning from him in slow real time. What if the Matrix determines that to fufill its directive it has to completely bring Dingo into the collective that makes it up? Dingo after all at this point is at the complete mercy of the Matrix. In fact he's basically just decoying it by trying to have it reinterpret its programming in a "Don't wipe out the World" manner. If Matrix determined that the new frame of thought wasn't working then he might revert to old programming and the first one he'd have to absorb would be Dingo. Or he might just want to start doing things faster which Dingo could only do if completely brought into the Collective.

I wonder if it is possible for anyone who was a member of the Pack to stay Human. Membership in it might just be a sort of curse against the member, condemning them to lose their humanity eventually, in some form. After all Jackal and Hyena are Cyborgs, Wolf is a Mutate, Cyoti is a Robot, and Fox is a Halfling. Dingo is the only one not transformed yet. He might not want to be transformed but it might just be that he'll have no choice. He might have to reinterpret just exactly what "Human" really means.

(And it would be sort of interesting to see how Hyena might react if he were to be transformed/merged with Matrix. I got the impression in the rest of the series that she had an interest in Dingo until Cyoti showed up and that she might still have a thing for him if she ran into him again.)

In fact it might be possible for Dingo to make it to 2198. If he is merged into Matrix then he or his memory or a memory of him might still be wandering around in the group mind that makes up the Master Matrix. That would be an interesting ingredient to add to the G2198 mix. (In fact being part of Matrix would essentially make him part of a group. And he might have to take over/lead that group in order to keep his individuality. That would be an interesting twist - in the Pack he had to blend into the background and let someone else (Cyoti) lead in order to maintain his individuality; In the Matrix he might have to stand out and lead in order to maintain his individuality.

Plus it would be interesting to see how Robyn Canmore might react to a Dingo who essentially has multiple personalities as part of Matrix. (Didn't Greg say that they would develop some sort of romantic thing?) If your part of a collective, are you even really you? And if your merged with a machine, then are you still human? And if so then what exactly is "Human"?

(God this sounds like GHOST IN THE SHELL. :-) I'd kill to see BAD GUYS done in any or all formats; everything else aside it would be interesting to see how Dingo and the group react and answer those questions. I think he might suprise us; after all he didn't exactly refer negatively to Cyoti in WALKABOUT; the way he mentioned him, it almost seemed like he might have thought he was the most normal member of the Pack left.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, August 5, 2002 07:06:40 PM
IP: 12.88.85.100

I agree that the idea of screening potential "Ask Greg" questions through Station 8 first sounds like a good idea. (Admittedly, it won't entirely solve the big backlog because I've already cleared several months' worth of questions and it's too late for me to delete them now, but it could prevent a troublesome situation from deteriorating further).

I've been carrying out my semi-usual custom of watching my "Gargoyles" tapes this summer, episode by episode. It's been a bit on the slow side - I started it at the beginning of June, and so far I'm only up to "Protection" - but it's been kind of fun, all the same. (One bit that I noted when I was watching my tape of "Protection" today that I hadn't noticed before - or had forgotten if I had - was Pal Joey's absolutely terrified response when Dracon has him teamed up with Goliath and Broadway. It was priceless).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 5, 2002 06:57:09 PM
IP: 67.28.92.18

IMPFAC> The debate was regarding Demona's leadership abilities _before_ she started going psycho, i.e. just prior to the massacre. I realise that it was an _extremely_ long debate, and that it was therefore not practical for you to read the entire thing, but you really should have read through at least some of it before posting.

"I've heard it's taken a rather unpleasant note."
Unpleasant, yes at times, but flame war, no. (I know that the punctuation in that sentence made no sense. I don't care.)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 5, 2002 06:41:47 PM
IP: 129.21.10.120

16th
Now how's THAT for random :D
IRC Goliath
Monday, August 5, 2002 06:23:23 PM
IP: 207.126.67.60

i agree with Mooncat, et al. that we should build a system where we have a certain group of people that go over the questions and answer the ones they can. if they can't answer the question they pass it on to Greg. i have a feeling that alot of new people asking qwuestions don't care so much about their question, they just want to have Greg answer them. what can i say, hes our hero! :) anyway, if people knew that only original, interesting and logical questions were gonna make it to Greg they'd be more careful in what they asked.
so, lets try to get something like this up and running!
matt
Monday, August 5, 2002 04:44:17 PM
IP: 207.230.48.6

Bud-Claire> I agree completely.

Mooncat> Linking them to the archive is an even better idea than answering them. That way, we may actually be able to convince them that the archive actually exists and it isn't just a conspiracy to waste our own bandwidth.

*Looks around the room and breathes a sigh of relief that no Slavery and Civil war debate started.*
Halelujia!
Jimmy
Monday, August 5, 2002 04:07:42 PM
IP: 172.139.5.229

Impfac - Not to be mean, but if you want to comment on the ongoing debate, maybe you should actually know what the debate topic is about? Maybe instead of going by a few things you have heard from someone else, you could actually read the posts in the message board.

Yes, we all know Demona and Hitler are best buds. sigh...

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 5, 2002 02:22:23 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Just wanted to contribute my two cents to the argument, even though I haven't followed it closely, though my ex did quote me.

I've heard it's taken a rather unpleasant note. I've tried to grow out of flaming-I'm sure whomever is doing it now will too. Or is just a hopeless jerk. I've found that letting go of your ego-something lots of people are utterly incapable of, a sign of their lack of maturity-is the way to go. I FAIL to do this plenty, but I'm trying. (This isn't addressed to anyone, but everyone)

Chill, people.

Demona as leader: It is a no brainer that she is a bad one. If we're going to pick out Goliath's fault's, why not mention Demona's obsessive compulsive lust for vengance, murder, and rabid distrust and hatred of humanity. Did Demona stick around to LISTEN to the rest of what MacBeth was saying that night? No-because if she'd taken those TWO EXTRA SECONDS before committing to the path of betrayl, she would have realized she was wrong, because as Greg said, MacBeth was then going to reject betraying the gargoyles. But she grasped on to what feed her dementia and was satisfied.

And how long do you think a rogue band of gargoyles-enemy of all humanity-was going to last? Demona's clan wanted to settle, and placed great pressure on her to do so-yet she refused, all for her sick compulsion. ANYONE who thinks their race is inherently superior and must rule the Earth is SICK.

Did we forget to mention that Demona actually attempted to MURDER her ENTIRE clan???? Some leader! That PROVES she was only out for her revenge, not the clan's best interest.

Eye of Odin: And what WOULD Brooklyn have done given that awesome power? Would he have surrendered it? Could he have seen as Goliath did that the power was corrupting him? Hmmm..... we can't know of course, but who are we to condemn Goliath?

It's been said that Demona was acting in the best interest of her clan. So? So was Goliath. And Hitler. And what happened to the best interest of her clan when she was firing a bazooka at them?

Brooklyn: Brooklyn has little experience, wisdom, or maturity. We saw him acting like a kid many times, INCLUDING fighting with the humans (something Demona had not the maturity to condemn). Yeah, we teenagers have our moments, but in the end, maturity wins out.

Bottom line: By the end of the series, Goliath had saved the clan countless times, found them powerful human allies, and rebuilt alliances with their enemies. Faults? Sure. But you can't argue with results. Goliath was a good leader.

All for now. Hope I'm not beating a dead horse and that the flaming chills out.

Be well and mellow,

IMPFAC
IMPFAC - [impfac@yahoo.com]
Denton, Tx, Mongolia
Monday, August 5, 2002 01:19:31 PM
IP: 129.120.87.86

I agree with Jim and Jimmy - While everyone should be allowed to ask stupid questions in life, no need for them to do it on Ask Greg. Maybe there should be a forum called "Ask Station 8" and they can put their question there first, and if it's one no one has a concrete answer to (show or pre answered question knowledge) it can then be passed on to Ask Greg. So if someone asks "How come Macbeth looks old but Demona doesn't" someone in Station 8 can tell them it's because of the Weird Sister's spell, and what episode answers that question. And if someone asks "What's so and so's grandson's girlfriends eye color and wing shape going to be?" Someone can tell them Greg doesn't design the physical characteristics of the Gargs. And so on.

If it's a pre-answered question, someone can post a link to the Ask Greg Archive page that answers it.

It's just a thought.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
mooncat
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:35:16 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Happy birthday Jim. Sorry, skipped over it :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, August 5, 2002 10:52:04 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Thanks everyone for the birthday wishes.

I second Jimmy's idea. I think a select few people when they have time should answer some of the very, very FAQ in the Ask Greg queue. Even though this action would possibly put some questions answered ahead of others (might totally defeat the purpose of the queue system). Still, just for this time when Greg's queue is so full of many, many FAQ and stupid questions like Jimmy's example, I strongly urge a small group people to clear out some of Greg's FAQ clutter. This idea would also keep people happy about their questions actually getting answered and not just tossed out with one of Greg's smart-ass comments. :)

Glad to see the week-long debate about everything is over. So who won? North or South? Heh. Just kidding. ;)
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Monday, August 5, 2002 10:45:47 AM
IP: 65.173.69.103

Possibly 10th
Leo
Monday, August 5, 2002 07:54:35 AM
IP: 172.144.172.78

Still 9th, so no one loses count. ;)

Now that I've had some time to collect my thoughts a bit, I'm going to throw in my $0.75. I think that both Goliath and Demona screwed up. I agree with whoever said that Goliath and Demona needed to communicate better. Goliath was idealism without action: his heart was in the right place, but he apparently stuck his head in the sand and _hoped_ that things would eventually turn out the way he wanted, if he was patient enough. Demona was action without idealism: she was right in believing that _something_ needed to be done, but her glimpse of the future caused her to be unnecessarily pessimistic in her outlook. If they had communicated better, they could have balanced each other out nicely.
(I suspect that a good part of the communication issue stemmed from Demona's little secret: her knowledge that the clan would be destroyed. Keeping that secret from Goliath also kept all of her fears and doubts from him. These things gnawed at her for years, and she had no one to talk to about it. And since her need to take some kind of action to protect her clan was born out of things she kept from Goliath, she kept _that_ from him, too. He knew that they disagreed about the humans, but he had no idea how strongly she felt until it was _way_ too late. Her secrets (however understandable) created a wall between them, and that screwed up their relationship, even if neither of them even noticed.)
Even had Demona's plan succeeded, it would have been a temporary solution at best. Even if the king didn't send soldiers to wipe the clan out during the day for revenge, sooner or later, someone else would have come. Someone looking to retake the castle, or religious fanatics, or something... At best, they could have avoided notice for a few centuries. If nothing else, tourists would have eventually shown up, wanting to look at the old castle, and it's not likely they could have kept their presence a secret even that long. Sooner or later, they would probably have had to move back into the caves, making the betrayal of the humans somewhat pointless. Demona was right to want to act, but the course of action she chose was not particularly effective.
Goliath, on the hand, believed that their ultimate survival depended on making peace with the humans, but he seemed to do little to try to make that happen. He thought that if they just kept acting nobly, sooner or later the humans were bound to notice and realise they had been wrong about gargoyles. Obviously, this isn't a very good plan. We know that Katherine and the Magus were actually good people, who eventually realised how misguided they'd been, and became some of the gargoyles' greatest allies. Goliath obviously had no way of knowing this, but he did know that Katherine's attitude was based on fear and ignorance. So why did he never (as far as we know) confront her about it? Demand to know where the hell she got off treating them that way, when her father trusted them with his life? I think that if he had actively tried, he could have convinced her of the truth. Even if he had failed... he still should have tried. And I think that if he and Demona had communicated better, he would have tried, if not that then something else. Goliath's idealism prevented him from seeing the danger, and Demona's experience with her older self prevented her from seeing the hope. Making peace with Katherine may not have guaranteed the clan's safety indefinitely, but it would have been a step in the right direction.

'Kay. Done now. :)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 5, 2002 03:19:56 AM
IP: 129.21.10.10

9th!
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 5, 2002 03:02:42 AM
IP: 129.21.10.10

8th! After a bit of numerical confusion.
ColdFire
Monday, August 5, 2002 02:58:05 AM
IP: 24.78.133.4

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
7th!
You're correct about that Graywolf, but this is a *comment* room so you shouldn't post so little and so many; it just slows us down before the week is done (I think that's why anyway). Your welcome here of course (that reminds me, have a cookie) but once everyone's done with this top ten thing, we go into deep phsycological, paranormal and analitical <hopes those are real words> debaits about the show. But if you want more of a chat, there's a link to a chat room under that banner <points upward> where that sort of behaviour is acceptable. Cheers mate.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, August 5, 2002 01:43:19 AM
IP: 216.209.110.26

7th.
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:11:20 AM
IP: 208.54.204.203

Comon where's number 3?
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:10:41 AM
IP: 65.104.14.4

You're missing number 3
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:08:38 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

Countdown rules!!!!!
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:06:42 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

6th, claimed for the Fay!

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:06:15 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Gutter ball, ---- you'll
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:05:01 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

Fifth! ^^
Lady Baltimore
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:04:31 AM
IP: 67.249.220.159

Hello everyone
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:03:20 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

Gues I'se 4th, Woo for me!
Wingless
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:02:40 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

HELLO WORLD!!!!
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:01:34 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

I'm Alive!!!!!
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
The Insane One Live!!!
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:00:43 AM
IP: 209.208.54.90

2
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:00:38 AM
IP: 68.13.157.215

No#1
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
The Insane One Live!!!
Monday, August 5, 2002 12:00:12 AM
IP: 209.208.54.90