A Station Eight Fan Web Site

Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 23, 2009

Index : Hide Images

Spidey > Not if I can help it! ;)
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

last comment of the week yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
spideyforever

So, they have two things in common with the cops from The Simpsons: one's black and one's white, and they both fail as keepers of the peace. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

I'd say that Kiron's all the more likely to be a namesake of Chiron than the same guy, since he was portrayed as unfriendly towards humans in a most unpleasant way - a far cry from Chiron, who was depicted as wise and noble. (I've mentioned this before, but to me, the worst thing about Kiron and Helios was that they joined in the riot, even though, as members of the police, they're supposed to be keeping the peace, not helping others break it.)
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

Pardon the double post.

Supermorff> I suspect part of the reason is that there's so much else going on in that episode. Thailog also only considers Goliath his "father" in the most sarcastic possible sense. I think he uses the term almost exclusive to push Goliath's buttons. So maybe he feels that just being with Demona is enough to make Goliath uncomfortable this time around. And on Goliath's end, this is the episode where he really stops thinking of Thailog as his son, not just because he and Demona are now a couple (which I imagine is pretty disturbing for him even by gargoyle standards), but because Goliath realizes that Thailog is the manipulator rather than the manipulated and if Goliath's chance to influence Thailog hadn't passed before, it certainly has by now.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Patrick> Could be one of two things. Either Greg was avoiding the question by giving a huge range and most New Olympians live to an age somewhere between those two extremes, of the genetic diversity of the species has lead to widely differing lifespans. If Slepnir's origins are what we suspect, we know that Oberon's Children are at least capable of producing viable offspring with species other than humans. So maybe some of these hybrids are considered New Olympians, but have much shorter lifespans than those with a human parent.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I just watched "Sanctuary" for the first time in a long while. Thailog sure does love flying in front of the moon in that episode. Anyway, I've got a question about it: Such a big part of the episode is about Angela's focus on Goliath and (eventually) Demona as her parents. Thailog also views Goliath as one of his fathers, and yet there's no reference to that at all. I would have thought that the two meanings would have complemented each other quite well... although perhaps any references would just have confused the more important issue. Any thoughts?
Supermorff

13 to 250 is quite a range. My cat is older than 13.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I believe Greg said that the lifespan of a New Olympian ranges from 13-250 years.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Well, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Fox will have a longer lifespan than most mortals, due to her mixed parentage. As far as years go, she's thirty, but on a cellular level, I wonder what "age" she is by the end of 1996. I noticed that when Greg B wrote "Rhapsody," she's ninety in the year 2056, but biologically, she was closer to fifty. I wonder if that was inspired by something Greg Weisman said.

That same formula might also be applicable to the New Olympians.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

Ah. Hm. Now that I think of it, the New Olympians were originally the Greek/Roman gods and monsters, but all really came from liaisons between Oberon's Children and mortals.

So would a New Olympian named Mars actually be the being who was worshipped as the god of war, or a descendant of that being? I'm not sure on the lifespans of the mortal-immortal halfbreeds.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Harvester> The one we see on New Olympus is spelled Kiron, so I think they're different.

Kerry> Boreas and Helios are both named after gods, one of wind and the other of the Sun. Proteus, it could be argued, was also a god, although the stories that feature him do treat him more like a monster that a hero has to defeat.

Supermorff

I've often wondered if the Chiron we see on New Olympus is the same one who trained heroes like Jason (the heir to the throne of Thessaly, not the Hunter) and Achilles, or just his namesake.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

Supermorff> Really? I'm just seeing Ekidna, which is an oddly spelled version of Echidna, a famous monster and mother of others... Though I suppose Jove is technically a Romanized version of Zeus (though the god's Roman name was Jupiter).
Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Sorry for double.

Spideyforever> Also, when Demona becomes human during the day she does seem to keep a small number of her gargoyle traits (I believe her eyes once glowed while she was still human).

Supermorff

Also several of the New Olympians were named after Greek Gods.
Supermorff

@ Irina: I must add: this is not just any continuation, but it is scripted and written by Greg.

So what you get in the comics IS Season 3 of the show. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

There is a character named after a greek god.

Xanatos stems from Thanatos, the personification of death and mortality.

Anonymouse

Irina> The original storyline was continued in the most recent line of comics. So far, there's one trade paperback out, with another to come out sometime later this year. Depending on licensing, there may eventually be more.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles:_Clan-Building%2C_Volume_One

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles:_Clan-Building%2C_Volume_Two

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Greg B.- I completely agree that expanding their life spans would really cheapen the show. And i said it just to propose something, anything. And ok, I can see it being a spin-off. But i k dont now, I really wish to know more about the existing characters I guess. I just cant believe that after all that, we dont even get to know what happens to the original characters, after that night when Demona tried to destroy the world. And thats it! Boom! new story line!

Of course, I will still support the show, wherever it goes. And I am sure it would be just as interesting, But very different. Which could be a good thing. :)

Irina

Questions
1.To get off topic what are your guys favorite horror movies and/or horror icons?

2.Has anyone seen the Friday the 13th remake yet?

3.I have ideas for a Freddy Vs Jason 2 as well as Halloween and Elm Street movies and some more Freddy VS. ideas if you want to hear them.

spideyforever

spideyforever>
1. As I said before, during the time the gargoyles were changed into humans, they REALLY WERE HUMAN. Completely. That means they were not gargoyles at all. No part of them was gargoyle. All human.

2. No, I don't think Goliath's human form resembles anyone from Greek mythology. More like a huge American bodybuilder.

3. There wouldn't really be any need for characters named *after* the Greek gods... Greg would probably just put the Greek gods into the story directly. :P



Brook> I haven't heard any mention of offical character sketches (though there are lots of fanart ones), and the answers on Ask Greg have been intentionally vague, mostly mentioning a desire not to "tie an artist's hands" by specifically describing someone.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Questions 1.When Gargoyles are turned human do they lose all their Gargoyle traits or do they still have Gargoyle blood along with human blood?

2. Does anyone think human Goliath looks like Zeus Or Hercules?

3. Speaking of which why didn't they have any characters named after Greek gods? That would be cool.

spideyforever

@ GXB: Actually, are there any character sketches for 2198 outside of GWs mind people have seen??
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Irina> Okay, this is where you're concerned. Gargoyles 2198 is not the same show as Gargoyles. It is a spin-off. A separate show that takes place in the same universe, two hundred and two years after the events of "Hunter's Moon". It's a spin-off, not a replacement. Nod a sudden jump forward.

Did "Gargoyles: Bad Guys" replace the regular "Gargoyles" comic book? Of course not. Nor would "Pendragon" or "TimeDancer" or "Dark Ages" or any of the others.

As for Titania giving them longer life spans? The Children of Oberon are not genies. If we went to them to use their magic to make everything better, than I personally think the series would devolved from being as sophisticated as it is to cheaper, wish fulfillment storytelling. And that shouldn't happen. In the world of Gargoyles, everything has a price. Especially magic. Demona and Macbeth are immortal, but boy is there a price for that.

Not to mention I doubt Goliath and his clan would want Titania or any other Child of Oberon casting spells on them. The Children are not the most trustworthy of characters. And people tend throw out Puck as an easy magic solution for some characters, but seem to forget that he is a trickster.

No, the series is more poingnant and the characters and situations remain more real if they stay operating within the rules as established. One of the appeals of "Gargoyles" for me anyway is that in spite of all the fantasy, and magic, and science fiction elements, it is still very grounded. Consequences are all to real. You can't get out of them. There are no easy answers, but everyone goes forward anyway.

We're all going to die some time. Why should it be any different for Goliath and his clan? Their mortality has to be real, or else there is no drama. And, even if they all die of natural causes (not likely), they'd still pass on before 2198.

And Samson is Goliath's descendant, not his look-a-like. There is a resemblance, but I doubt he's a carbon copy.

Of course that is all my opinion, I could be wrong.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

Uhm, 2198 = 200 years away. In Gargoyle years 100. So, erhm, very seniour...
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Irina> I agree with you Why would they write out the main characters unless they died in a great battle or something? They age slower than humans so they'd probably be senior gargoyles.
spideyforever

Sorry for the double post: I just wanted to make an update on the FORUM!!

So, several users remarked it was impossible to log-in. That shoudl be fixed now (I hope) and people are free to post.

If you're not free to post, then wait a while or drop me a comment. It has to do with approvals... yeah, kinda dull...

Anyways, the thing is open. I hope people will start posting (someday) and keep this alive (discussing sthings with myself is so boring... it's like that freakazoid EP with Handman...)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

@ Irina: Goliath is going to sacrifice himself in the GARGVERSE someday. We don't know when, but it is of importance, both to the universe and to the storyline.

Also, it is discussed a lot when 2198 will "start". Physically, it will start when GARGOYLES ends. But apart from that, we don't know as of yet if it will start whilst GARGOYLES is still alive and kicking or if it really will happen when Greg finishes the entire GARGOYLES series (I predict: this will be tough).

As for how it continues: read the comics. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Greg B.-Its depressing because I am personally used to the show being about Goliath and his "clan". I think it is strange to have the show continue with a young look alike of Goliath'. And Why does the show have to go so far into the future? why cant it just continue from where it left off? (and i am not talking about the Goliath Chronicles. To me thay are not even part of the show, to be honest.)
For real, I would like to know more about waht happens to the original characters in the show, rather then jsut all of a sudden jumping so far into the future.

And yeah, to be still alive so far in the future, they would have to be imortal. But why ,say, couldent Titania make then make longer life spans for protecting her grandson? idk. whatever. But I feel like Goliath at least has to remain alive somehow, and not his look alike who "sounds like him" as well? wtf

Irina

Gargs 2198:.. well, I think Samson could have some of Broadway traits like his fanned ears or coloring.. or maybe even just his insight.. or maybe he'll have facial hair like Hudson.. or those "hand" thingies that are on Angela and Demona..who knows..

though has Greg said that Sam will sound exactly like Goliath? Morgan O.K, but a little varied.. but I doubt it would be like a young Goliath.. hmm..

starlioness

Brook: There's actually a fair amount of bits we know of, though how they will all play out remains a mystery.

For one, we know of Halcyon Renard's death due to his illness is coming up. We've also heard that Queen Mab is due to break out, though I remembered it has been discussed before that it may not necessarily be happening soon. (My guess/hope is that it happens during the Gathering, maybe even breaks it up temporarily).

There's also the Tricksters-kidnapping-Alex story, not to mention the "Weird Macbeth" story that's been discussed before as well (though my memory of these stories are real vague).

Not to mention Demona's eventual return, Thailog's plans for the DNA he stole, and who knows what from the ramifications of the current Stone of Destiny and coming TimeDancer story arcs. There could be more, but I can't recall anymore at the moment.

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Irina> Why is it depressing that most of the cast will be dead by 2198? They'd either have to become immortal or have tremendously long lifespans in order to still be alive.

We'd still have Demona, Owen, Alex, and eventually Macbeth and maybe some Children of Oberon. We'd also have the time traveling Brooklyn.

I don't think the future there sounds depressing. It sounds exciting to me. And part of a deep history that Greg is creating here. I'd love to see 2198.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

2198: Now, I'm patricularily sorry to say this, but to me - before I read the comics - 2198 always seemed like an "upgraded futuristic" version of Gargoyles. Kinda how the Jetsons were a version of the Flintstones, Batman of the Future of Batman, and some other shows that I can't remember right now, that put the cast in a futuristic utopia-set.

Now, having read the comics and regaining some faith, I know that Greg can handle it and is still a good storyteller. But how all this could possibly play out as a show... I'm clueless. I really am.

To me, it would be more interresting as a part of TIMEDANCER, integrated into it.

HOWEVER, before multiple posters bash me, I have to add that these feelings are centered on the fact that we do not have ANY info on an opening EP or the course the show will take. All we have is a short synopsis.

So this might be totally different that your usual "Cartoonshow2.0: now in a future age".

Ona totally different matter, I posted some months ago what we know of the potential SEASON 4 / post Clan Building season. Any information of what will come next on the Garg-timeline??

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

2198 parallels: I noticed that 2198 was shaping up to have a very similar cast to the current series, whether by simply having the same characters present (Brooklyn, Owen), or by having descendants or analogues of original series characters who would most likely bear a physical and vocal resemblance to their predecessors (LXM, Alex, Samson, Delilah). I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, it might be cool to have Salli and Keith et al. reprising familiar roles for us. On the other hand, I want to see entirely new characters -- and I am particularly wary of a Samson who looks like a young Goliath. The Samson I imagined looks very little like Goliath -- more an amalgam of traits borrowed from Hudson, Broadway, Demona, etc. --, but from Greg's comments I expect we're supposed to see a strong resemblance, perhaps right down to a recolored Goliath model (probably very like the similarity between David Xanatos and Future Tense Alexander "Fox").

Why did Greg do this? It might be as a way to ease the audience in, but that's probably not strictly necessary -- New Olympians won't have that cushion, for example. I think it has more to do with Greg's instincts as a storyteller, an innate preference for symmetry and circles.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Kerry (Kth) Boyd- THanx for the explanations and the link! WOW, the future is so depressing! And its too bad Goliath and Brooklyn are dead! Its not the same anymore without them and the others there...
Irina

*facepalm* Double again. Sorry.

For how we know all this stuff about the future, Irina, see http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles_2198

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Irina> The supporting cast of gargoyles from the original Wyvern clan, Demona's clan, and Avalon did indeed share some models (and I, like Rebel, wish there'd been more females). It's cheaper and easier to use existing models than to have to make up whole new ones for gargoyles we only really see in one set of episodes, so while it wasn't an error in the sense that it was done accidentally, it did make those storylines look really odd from that perspective. If you want the whole story, as well as what Greg's said in the meantime to try to explain it, check the link that Matt posted.

As far as outcasts go, there very well could have been some in Demona's clan, but I don't think they made up a lot of it. I doubt she was too picky about who she included, since gargoyle numbers in general were rapidly declining, but I get the sense that banishment was not a common occurrence.

Regarding Demona and the eggs, she did see them taken away... by people who were not known for their knowledge or appreciation for gargoyles or their culture. She had no reason to expect the eggs to even be properly cared for, though it could be assumed she knew the Magus and Katherine would not smash them (as the eggs were carefully loaded in a wagon, obviously for safe transport). What stopped her from either lending a hand in caring for the eggs or stopping their removal was simply this: despair. Her world had fallen to bits. All the gargoyles in her clan were either obviously dead or inexplicably asleep, and she would either have to have humans she despised help caring for the eggs or have to do it all alone. Though she put the blame on humans, deep down she knew that she shared that blame (and she still does, though a millennium of habit has buried that knowledge extremely deep). Her situation is an even more painful version of survivor's guilt, and leaving the eggs to the humans is rather like Goliath's wish to be put under the sleep spell, though without the suicide angle.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Battle Beast> We're not interpreting the scene differently. Angela is his daughter. We're both agreeing there. We agree that is how he introduced her.

What I am saying is that in Goliath's mind, from his POV, there is no difference between biological offscreen and rookery offspring.

Diane Maza didn't tell Goliath to change his viewpoint, just that Angela is his daughter by any definition, including his own. And Angela is the only hatchling with him anyway.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

Greg Bishansky> I guess I interpret the scene differently. I wish I could see it again.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

yes,I also noticed that not only were there more gargoyles, but some of them looked the same as the ones that got destroyed! I though I was just seeing things, but i guess not...
Harvester of Eyes- it all makes sense that those gargoyles would want ot join Demona after the hunder is dead. but its jsut that they also look the same as the others. I guess it is an animation error.

Also I dont think that those gargoyles were only hiding from the humans alone. If you remember in ones of the episodes, the one where Demona wears that robot suit, and then they decide to place her in an underground prison of some sort. In that episode Goliath says that in the old days, they used to banish the gargoyles from the group and the castle I assume. So I am guessing that the gargoyles in Demona's clan were those outcasts. Does that make sense?

ANd another question, you guys are talking about all those gargoyles in the future and all. How do you know all that? comic book? is there something that I missed?

Irina

As usual, pretty much all the info that is out there on Demona's Clan can be found in that entry at the GargWiki: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Demona%27s_Clan

Samson> I wonder. As Greg B mentioned, in the 2198 document there is a line about Samson's uncertain ancestry. It seems everyone knows he is descended from Goliath via Angela and Broadway somehow, but no one is sure how. Did Greg W mean that the humans saw this or that the gargoyles themselves did or both? Did the future members of the Manhattan Clan even notice the resemblance until humans pointed it out? Goliath seemed to recognize Angela's resemblance immediatly upon meeting her, so maybe the Manhattan gargs saw the resemblace right away too. It all makes me wonder how much the Clan in the future looks at biological parentage. Clearly, they raise their young communally, but I wonder how much humanity will have had an influence over the next 200 years.
Of course, there is probably some anthrocentrism in that comment of mine. No one in the Comment Room seems to be questioning how much gargoyle customs will influence human society over time.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Kerry > "I suppose it depends on what point in the story you're talking about. If Demona finds that second great love, someone she can actually spend the rest of her life loving, wants a baby very much, and yet can't give him a child, that would be a very poignant plot point."

It would be poignant, sure, but I would still be more interested if she was still able to have a child. To each their own though.

Demona's Clan > I really wish the animators had made 1 or 2 of those 4 or 5 (can't remember) male gargoyle models into a female.

Rebel

Irina: I don't think Demona knew where the eggs eventually ended up. I imagine she probably thought that Katherine and the Magus just got tired of watching over them and abandoned them. Or maybe she thought Constantine made omelettes out of them. Or maybe she just forgot about them altogether. That was during a very big moment in the development of her character.

As far as the other gargoyles in "City of Stone" are concerned, they were probably just remnants of other clans that, unlike the gargoyles Demona found, were shunning human contact altogether, then emerged when they heard that the Hunter was dead, and there was a new king with a gargoyle as his chief advisor.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

Demona's Clan> Apparently they've always been expanded in number, but the animation budget makes it hard to depict more than what we see. You'll notice they use the same handful of male gargoyle models for all their major scenes, including surviving being shattered.

...And they recycle those models for the Avalon clan, too. ....yeah.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Irina: I also wondered where her larger clan came from. From what I understand, she (and her mini-clan, I guess) had been collecting "stray" gargoyles. I also noticed in that episode that one of the gargoyles shattered by the soldiers flew off. (animation error!)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Now, now... Language.

Battle Beast> That's exactly how Goliath introduced her. As his daughter.

To Goliath, there is really no difference. Gabriel is his son too.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

I feel that the way Goliath introduced Angela to the clan was done in a way indicating he felt that she was "his daughter."

Now if Ophelia and Gabriel were there as well, I think he would have introduced them differently. Certainly he would have. *shrugs*

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

First of all, I dont see how Demona didn't know that the rookery children survived since she saw them being taken away in the "City of Stone" by the princess and the magus. Or even if she didn't know what they were doing with the eggs, weather they were going to destroy them or not, she didn't really seemed to care to at LEAST find out. So I find it strange that she would care for the other rookery children that much.

And specking of the "City of Stone" episode. THe part where most of Demona's clan gets destroyed, and then when she and her clan help McBeth with the battle; I noticed that there were alot of Gargoyles in that battle, definitely more then remained in that cave. So my question is where on earth did they come from?

Irina

Brook> All that stuff turning to stone was the point of the spell, not the price of it. ;P The price for the Humility Spell could very well be that gargoyles succumbed to the more human condition of being body shy.

Anyway, the point I was making was that the pendants *originally* had a price, and then did not. That's what the disappointment was, and I'm not bent out of shape over it or anything. LOL

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

@ K Boyd: I mean, not all magic has its price, think of the spell of humihilation or whatsitcalled, that the clothes ad personal belongings turn to stone with the Gargoyle that carries them. Kinda good thing, methinks.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

It would be the biggest c*ckblock EVER if she'd fall in love with a Space Spawn character!!

Really... as I give it a thought... probably I SHOULD start writing fanfiction... :D

;P

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Sorry for the double.

Originally in Ask Greg, the Mayan pendants didn't compensate their wearers' lifespans; they aged twice as fast because they were awake twice as long. Greg decided later that with the havoc that would cause with their breeding cycles, the math was too much trouble to practically deal with. I don't really fault him for the change, but getting away from the idea that all magic has a price was kind of disappointing.

Though maybe there still is a price for the pendants, and we just don't know what it is yet.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Rebel> I suppose it depends on what point in the story you're talking about. If Demona finds that second great love, someone she can actually spend the rest of her life loving, wants a baby very much, and yet can't give him a child, that would be a very poignant plot point.

I could see it going either way, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she could have a child easily, have one with difficulty, or be totally infertile. Since there's not a potential father around, though, the question probably isn't going to get answered anytime soon.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Well, some people might think this is just too "convenient", but I suspect Puck's spell on Demona has some way of compensating in the event she got pregnant (whether by a human or a gargoyle). Magic in the gargoyles universe sometimes does some convenient things for the people affected by it. For example, the fact that the Mayan pendant wearers do not age twice as fast as other gargoyles despite being flesh twice as much. Of course, that is mortal magic, which is a different kettle of fish, but still.

Anyway, I just don't think Demona becoming essentially infertile due to transforming into a human every day is something that would be very interesting in a story at all. It would be much more interesting (in my opinion) if she was still able to have children, albeit perhaps with some serious complications.

Rebel

Brook> I know. I wasn't saying it was impossible, just that certain things had to happen for her to be able to carry a baby to term. :P I admit, Puck forcing one on her was something I hadn't thought of, though.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd

@ K Boyd: Remember that we're discussing magic here. Who knows what Puck was up to when he cast the spell.

Demona: "I WANT to have somebody just LIKE ME, who's NOT going to make me ANGRY, who's JUST LIKE ME, somebody I can LOVE!!"
Puck: "OK! *snip*"

...


...

Demona: "SO WHAT?? WHERE IS SAID PERSON, TRICKSTER??"

Puck: "In your belly."

Demona: "... *christ*, I need a new job..."

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

spideyforever> When the gargoyles were bespelled into human form in "The Mirror," they truly were human. If they'd stayed that way, they would have been able to procreate with other humans and the children would have also been fully human.

Demona's transformation is related to this in that she is fully human during the day. If she were to have sex with a human male in the daytime, it would be just as possible for her to become pregnant as any other human woman. However, there are several problems in the way of a successful delivery.

1. The transformation process itself. This is extremely painful for Demona, and the physical stress alone might cause her to miscarry, making it impossible for her to carry any child to term regardless of the father's species.

2. There is no guarantee that the transformation would affect the unborn child. Thus, a human baby might stay human, and a gargoyle child a gargoyle. Either situation would very likely cause Demona's immune system to tag the child as an unwelcome foreign body after the transformation was complete, again causing miscarriage. Even if her immune system accepted the kid, the human and gargoyle reproductive systems are too different to keep a baby of the wrong species healthy.

3. Demona's personality. It may be canon-in-training that she and Thailog were in a sexual relationship, but I have sincere doubts that she would allow any human male the same for any reason. Now that Thailog has betrayed her, I don't really think she'd let ANYONE that close to her again, at least until the also canon-in-training second "great love" she's predicted to have.

So, for Demona to have any kids at all, many things would have to happen. She'd have to actually get pregnant (by a human before sunset or a gargoyle after), the child would have to be affected by the transformation spell, and not die from the physical stress put on either itself or Demona during each change.

In regards to a garg-human hybrid, Delilah is currently the only one, and she is definitely more on the gargoyle end of things. I suppose technically any gargoyle out of Delilah's line could be called a hybrid, but the amount of human DNA in there would dwindle to insignificance very quickly, so I'm not sure that would really count. For others, someone would have to make them, either through science, sorcery, or both, and there's no telling what they could look like if this happens. They could end up looking almost fully human, almost fully gargoyle, or anywhere in between. So far, we don't know whether this is going to happen, but I wouldn't really expect more hybrid characters. As for whether Goliath and Elisa's DNA could be combined... I'm not sure. I don't know how difficult it is to combine the genetic material of two individuals who are not the same sex.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

To me, 2198 was always a bit like Batman of the Future, and therefore the least interresting Spin-off.

But then again, since I read the comics, Greg has a green card with me, he really can do whatever he wants, and I suspect to like it. The only thing he has done post Hunters Moon that I didn't really like was Vol. 6, and I can see why he did it. Damn, before I read it, I also wished to see this story for a long time, it wasn't his fault that it felt rushed and a bit short and pointless... I guess would it have been a 2 issue comic, I would have liked it a lot more.

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Demonskyre > I sorta agree with you on Samson. In fact, I think it's kinda weird that so many members of the 2198 cast will be cast members from the main series, or characters who look similar to them.

Brooklyn will be like Brooklyn
Demona will be like Demona
Delilah will (probably?) be like Elisa and Delilah
Samson will be like Goliath
Owen will be like Owen
Nokkar will be like Nokkar
The LXM robots will be like Lexington
Zafiro will be like Zafiro
Nick will be like....okay, I dunno yet

I'm sure that all the "new" characters will have their own distinct personalities and whatnot, but the whole cast just seems a bit to me like it isn't fresh enough. Also, I really don't see why it has to be Samson leading the resistance. Samson leading the resistance seems to me like it's just going to end up being a close parallel to Goliath leading the Manhattan clan. I wish it were Delilah, or maybe Zafiro leading it. To me that would be fresher.

I suspect the reason why so many of the 2198 cast members are similar to (or the same as) main series members is to make it more accessible to audiences. Filling the 2198 cast with characters we already know or characters who are similar to those we already know means the audience can feel more "familiar" with things and less characterization is necessary.

Rebel

@ spidey: That is one of the major discussions concerning Demona right now. Nobody knows for sure.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Oops, should have had an "and Delilah" in there.

Spidey>Nobody knows.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

When the gargoyles were in their human form couldn't they have human children and if they did would they be part gargoyle?
spideyforever

Spidey> They did do that--combine Goliath and Elisa's DNA--in the Marvel comics. It was called Venus, and behold, it was creepy. D: (Because the creation had romantic desigins on Goliath, y'see, and.....you know, I should have stopped right there)

Not canon.

A human-gargoyle hybrid, we've already gone one. We've got Elisagoyle in "The Mirror".

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

In other words I know Demona turns human in an episode so if she kept her wings and fangs that's what a humoyle/garghuman or whatever you want to call it would look like.

Second of all, what if Xanatos decided to make a humoyle/garghuman to serve him and did it by mixing together Goliath and Elisa's DNA? Is it even possible to mix their genes together?

spideyforever

Battle Beast> I agree with Algernon here. Hudson was too old to have fathered a child in Angela's generation and the Trio and Bronx are all too young. So Angela doesn't currently have any other rookery parents in the clan. If Coldstone and Coldfire had been present at tthe time (which would have been tough since "Coldfire" didn't exist yet), Goliath might have referred to Angela as "our daughter." Or maybe he wouldn't have. I'm not sure it would necessarily mean that he thinks he has exclusive rights to the title of "father" with Angela. In fact, I'm fairly certain he would encourage Angela to look upon Coldstone and Coldfire as her parents as well and would be quite happy with any relationship that develops between them.

Greg B> My guess is that Samson is at least aware that he's descended from Goliath. There's evidently a fairly strong resemblance and since Goliath was alive during the age of photography and video and evidently became a very famous figure, it would probably be hard to avoid noticing it. Though nothing is certain yet, it would seem that he's not someone who is particularly concerned with his biological parentage, though the fact that he's descended from Goliath may have some effect on him, for better or worse.

Speaking of Samson, one of my few concerns about "2198" is that Samson will just look like a recolored Goliath and be voiced by Keith David. Much as I like both Goliath's design and Keith David, this isn't something I really want to see. Samson is at least three (right?) generations removed from Goliath, so I feel like he should look at least a little different from him. Certainly not as close as Thailog. Again, Keith David is fantastic, but I worry that having him voice Samson would just make the characters too similar. He's not the kind of voice actors who does a huge range of really distinctive voices, so I'm not sure his take on Samson would sound very distinct from Goliath. Samson needs to be his own distinctive character and that's going to be a lot easier to achieve if he doesn't look and sound so much like Goliath that even the fans keep slipping up and calling him "Goliath."

spideyforver> The closest thing we've seen to a true human/gargoyle hybrid is Delilah, though Greg W has said she's pretty much a gargoyle with a few largely cosmetic human fatures. So probably something like Delilah, but skewed a little more human. Rgardless, it's a moot point, since humans and gargoyles are not biologically compatible and can't have children.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Spidey> Only fanon knows, since the two of them can't reproduce. Check fanfic sites, and you'll find several variations. :P

Everybody else> We all know it's not going to happen, but if the stories tried to introduce greater curiosity about gargoyle pareting into modern clans, it would have to be done *very* carefully to avoid anthrocentrism, presuming that one family arrangement is "superior" to the other and that gargoyles didn't come up with the idea of a truly loving parental arrangement until humans showed them how.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

@ Greg B: I'm not that into source citing, so thanks for the info. :) (To me, pretty much nothig is canon until it is in the show, since I'm way too used to creative changes during the creation of a story myself.)

That is indeed interresting.

I'm still with Battl Beast though. Sorry Algernon.

@ spidey: We do know that humans and gargoyles can't have children, biologically. If, it might be close to The-Mirror-era-Elisa. Watch that EP, and you will know what I mean. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

If Goliath had a child with Elisa what would they look like a human with wings or something?
spideyforever

Battle Beast> Keep in mind under the Gargoyle Way neither Hudson or trio would have been considered Angela's rookery parents. Otherwise "Turf" would have made seriusly disturbing viewing. :P
Algernon

Brook> <<My question therefore is still unanswered, if there is awareness of parentage (or let's say "caring") in future clans. Not a nuclear structure, but if it starts to matter.>>

Well, in the 2198 document, it is said that no one knows who Samson's parents are. He could be the biological son of Lancelot, or the biological grandson of Artus or Gwenyvere. But that to look at him, it is obvious that he is descended from Goliath.

I'm quoting from memory, and I don't have time to go check it though.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

I think that Goliath has adopted some human ways... IN "The Gathering" he introduces Angela as "My Daughter," not "Our Daughter"... so I think he does feel that she is HIS daughter on one level but still a daughter of the entire clan, too.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

@ Demonskrye: Seriously, whenever I want to make a statement, I should just wait for you to post. :) Again, you formulated my views and questions a lot better than I ever could on here. :)

I think he problem is that a lot of people see this black and white: either communal parenting, or nuclear family. But what about communal parenting with the awareness of biological parenting?

@ Algernon: I would disagreee, for the point that Angela is Goliaths biological daughter is quite a big point to the show. I think, as stated before, it was pretty obvious to Goliath that Angela is his daughter, but he wasn't used to this way of thinking. Biology doesn't matter that much to him, and whilst I'm sure he was happy that he had his daughter close to him and her joining the Wyvern clan, I do not think it is something which h gave a lot of thoughts. But I think that the world tour, and the entire Goliath, Demona, Angela triangle really complicated the situation. Not only was Goliath influenced by Angela, but also by Demona, which is pretty well depicted by her confronting Goliath again and again with the fact that they have a daughter. (if only by yelling "Safe our daughter, Goliath!")

Personally, I tend to see the relationship they have like looking at a big family, with Goliath as his daughter and Gabriel as his nephew or whatever. He loves both of them and sees them as children of his, but with the shared history, and I not just meen the Avalon tour, but also Demonas and Elisas and, foremost, Angelas talk about biological parenting, Goliath has very personal feelings about Angela. I mean, she's basically the last element that ties him with Demona, in one way or another.

My question therefore is still unanswered, if there is awareness of parentage (or let's say "caring") in future clans. Not a nuclear structure, but if it starts to matter.

On another note - are there any Ask-Greg related entries about how Angela was born, creatively??

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

I would think that Elisa has somewhat, if only a subtle influence on Goliath acting more human than he ever has before in his life.
Anthony Tini

Demonskrye > Very interesting point you make about Hudson. I can think of no reason for Hudson not to be called 'Father', especially seeing as he is the biological father of Broadway. Well, Goliath has a reason to call him 'old friend' and 'mentor' because thats what Hudson has always been to him. Before getting modern names, the Trio didnt call Hudson anything in the parts we saw. One would think he would be considered 'father' to them. Maybe they just simply grew up and dont say 'mother' or 'father' any more. Maybe he did just become 'mentor' to them.

Thats a puzzling observation.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Rebel> While I do agree that Goliath is much closer to Angela then any of the other Avalon gargs, I think that has more to do with the fact they've spent the most time together and have had their relationship put to the test. If it had been Gabe or Ophelia on that skiff instead, things might have turned out very diffrently
Algernon

Gargoyle Parenting> Personally, I think the biological relationship between them has had much more of an effect on Angela than on Goliath. Her reaction when Sevarius tells her that Goliath is her biological father seems to suggest that the idea really hadn't entered her mind before. Which is understandable, considering that Goliath isn't biologically old enough to have a daughter Angela's age. She may have grasped the concept in theory, or possibly not, but she clearly hadn't really considered Goliath to be her father before that moment. The main role that biology plays here is that Angela is the only gargoyle in the Avalon Clan who could have received this revelation from Sevarius. If Gabriel had been the one to go on the world tour, Sevarius probably would have been able to determine that Gabriel and Goliath are from the same original clan, which wouldn't really change anything, since both gargoyles already know that. But since Sevarius is presumably unaware of both Avalon and gargoyle culture regarding raising children, he wouldn't have been ab;e to tell Gabriel that he is part of the same generation as Goliath's biological child. I think Goliath still would have felt very paternal towards Gabriel; he really didn't have trouble being loving towards Angela until he felt like she wanted a relationship with him based solely on their biological ties. And maybe Gabriel would have responded to Goliath's attitude towards him and come to regard him as a father. Or maybe he would have always thought of Goliath as simply a leader who he greatly respects. The main difference is that biology forced Goliath and Angela to confront their relationship in a much more head-on way than Goliath would have had to with any other member of the Avalon Clan.

I think modern gargoyles are definitely going to be more aware of the idea of biological parentage than clans of the past were, assuming they aren't already. Modern clans with access to modern technology probably get exposed to a lot of human culture, given that we're probably still many decades away from media tailored for a gargoyle audience. In tenth century Scotland, the Wyvern Clan could live alongside humans and still feel like there was a distinct separation between the two cultures. But nowadays, human culture can travel to places humans don't usually go. I am fairly certain Knight's Spur has at least one TV. So I'm sure young gargoyles will observe how human children usually have just one set of parents, the ones who gave birth to them, and start asking questions. Heck, i wouldn't be surprised if some tenth century gargoyles were curious about the subject as well, even though they weren't being bombarded with images of the human nuclear family. So some young gargoyles will probably ask about it. And I imagine most gargoyle parents would tell them that so-and-so and such-and-such are their most likely biological parents. I think there's a misconception that gargoyles view biological parentage as a big secret, when actually, it's just not something they're concerned about. Broadway isn't concerned about who is biological father is because no one he knew in the Wyvern Clan cared about such things. So I don't think it would be kept from a child who was asking, but the child would likely also be told that he or she has a whole clan to love and care for him or her and that it's just a different way of doing things from the human way (or ways, as there are many kinds of human families.)

Having given it some thought, I wouldn't completely discount biology as one way, among many others, that gargoyles of parent and child generations might bond. Have you ever felt particularly fond of a fictional character in part because he or she kind of resembles you? Young gargoyles could sometimes feel a particular kinship with gargoyles who more closely resemble them, not realizing that it's because of the biological relationship. Sometimes this might happen, sometimes it might not. Sometimes a biological parent and child may form a bond completely unrelated to anything to do with them being related, and sometimes they may never be tremendously close. Broadway is Hudson's biological son, yet I've seen no evidence that Hudson is any closer to Broadway than he is to the rest of the Trio or Goliath.

Speaking of Hudson, does anyone else find it odd that none of the other gargoyles ever refer to Hudson as "father?" With the exception of Angela, he is a rookery father to all of the Manhattan Clan, Bronx included. Yet the relationship is never acknowledged. I suspect to some degree it's like the use a "rookery brother," a way of avoiding audience confusion. But still, I find it odd that it's never come up. You could have Goliath call Hudson "Father" in front of a less informed human, who would then ask "So Hudson is your father," to which Goliath would reply "Gargoyle children are raised by the whole clan and ale males who fathered an egg are fathers to that generation, so..."

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I still don't think Goliath would have reacted as strongly had it been any other member of the Avalon clan that got injured. Could I be "thinking too much like a human"? Absolutely. That's definitely a possibility.

Either way, Angela and Goliath/Demona, and Brooklyn/Katana and Nashville, are all exceptional and unusual cases. I think in most situations with a decent-sized clan and a decent-sized rookery, gargoyles would not know (with any kind of conclusiveness) whose hatchling is whose (biologically). And even if it was blatantly apparent that a particular hatchling was the biological child of a particular pair, in most cases the parent/s and child would not be isolated on a lengthy adventure together.

Rebel

@ STittch: It should work now - if it still doesn't work, just post here, and I'll send you my mail addy. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

HEY BROOK
i've been trying to get into the forum, but everytime i try to go somewhere after logging in, it kickes me out. i cant even read the PMs you sent me.

sTiTcH

Greg B > I agree, the irony is delicious *gobbles down irony for dinner* Yum! ;)
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Greg Weisman stopped by here cool.
spideyforever

Speaking of Demona's "human" aspects, I always found it amusing that Demona seemed to like the idea of having a name, what with naming being a very human custom. But, she still loves it when Macbeth gives her a name (though that's probably also because he gives her a name that will inspire fear).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

Goliath would most definitely be upset if anyone from his clan or anyone one of his rookery children were hurt or killed.

Here's the thing though...like it or not, the fact that Angela is the biological daughter of Goliath and Demona is a VERY important plot point to the series. Here the creators themselves are actually "thinking more like humans." Because in general, they know that her being the actual offspring of Goliath and Demona will have a much more emotional impact *TO US* than if it were some random rookery kid.

Hey, we're humans. We're very attached to our offspring. Applying human traits to things we don't understand is a natural thing for us to do.

And Goliath does have a strong bond with Angela more than the other kids because he spent the most time with her. But I do believe the biology thing has some bearing..because it was such a MAJOR plot point.

Also, I really can't see how the Manhattan clan can raise the kids in the strictest sense of the gargoyle way. It's a small clan, and they also have very strong human connections. Throw in the Timedancing family and a human kid adopted by Goliath and Elisa... this is not your typical clan.

I have no desire to see the gargoyles give up their ways and start separating into little nuclear families, but I do think there is a lot of black-and-white in this area, and no clear cut answers.

Purplegoldfish

Litwolf> Again, I think most of us can agree that Demona is very atypical. She is corrupt. And I always found it ironic that she was the most human out of all of them. She is the most like what she despises the most. The irony is just delicious.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin

Well, yeah, he would've been upset if any members of his clan were almost killed in that manner. I don't know if we can really quantify Goliath's rage or whatever. He would've been mad whoever it was given that they are all his family.

It's like asking "Would you be more mad if I killed your mother or your father?" Some things don't need quantifying, especially in such a big hypothetical.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

"LITWOLF> Well, Demona is very atypical. Kind of ironic that she, maybe the most corrupt of all gargoyles, is also the most "human" of all of them.
But also, keep in mind, Angela is the only one of her children that she knows. Who knows what might happen if she met Gabriel, Ophelia, or any of the rest." Greg B

True, Angela is the only rookery child she knows but she also knows Angela is her biological daughter, not only because Angela told her so but because Sevarius ran a DNA test (that last part is still cannon-in-training but its still relevant). Without that DNA sample, Demona would never have known that any of the eggs had survived, let alone her very own. If it wasnt Angela, the DNA test would not have shown anything, unless Demona and the Avalon gargoyle were cousins or something like that. I doubt she would have been so attached to Ophelia or any other rookery child. She tells Thailog that Angela is hers, even if Angela doesnt see Demona's side of things. I think Demona sees Angela as a blood daughter rather than just a rookery daughter.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Okay, back to the discussion. Someone asked if, hypothetical situation, if Gabriel were the one who was injured in "Hunter's Moon" and near death, and not Angela, would Goliath have been as enraged towards vengeance?

I tend to think the answer is a resounding yes. By gargoyle definitions as they've been presented, Gabriel is Goliath's son. And, I do think he bonded with him. But even without that bond, Goliath is still a father to each and everyone of those eggs. They are his children. They are his clan.

Frankly, I think Goliath would have been just as enraged if it were any single one of them who was nearly killed, or killed. Look at how he reacted in "The Price" when he thought Hudson was murdered by Macbeth. And he had no idea that was a robot, he was willing to take a life there.

If it were any of the trio, I think so to. Goliath had practically his entire clan massacred. He doesn't want any more of them to get killed.

So, if it were Gabriel, or Ophelia, then yes, I do think he'd have still gone after the Hunters with the same intensity. It may not be the human definition, but they are his children.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Well, I definitely wasn't trying to shut down discussion. I love a good discussion and a good debate. But you're right, Greg. I got overzealous, and should have tempered my word choices.

You are absolutely correct in that I am quoting from memory stuff that was said at a Gathering, and my memory may be faulty. And, in any event, it's not canon.

In any event, that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was "quoting evidence", got carried away, and as someone who often asks others to cite their sources, I should have stuck with Ask Greg instead of "this is what he said at a con."

Mea culpa.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Let me temper my last post, which was written in haste before I read the entire room. Quoting my words in writing from Ask Greg is obviously much more reliable than quoting me from memory from the Gathering. I think my main point, the main reason I was concerned by the tenor of some of the posts here was because they seemed to be trying to shut down discussion with the language of absolutes, and they were invoking my name to do that. That's what I objected to. I obviously have my own strong feelings on these issues, but this is a forum for discussion, so I don't see the language of absolutes as being too useful in that regard.
Greg Weisman

GXB - Stop speaking for me, dude. You know I love you, but it is NOT for you to be telling people here that they are "wrong". Whether or not, I would agree with your assessment is immaterial. You are making the place less welcoming when you speak in absolutes, and when you throw out my name to do it, you are by implication suggesting that I don't welcome discussion of these issues. If you want to quote something I said once at a Gathering, fine. But keep in mind, all you are REALLY doing is quoting me to the best of your recollection, which may or may not be faulty -- and that's on top of the fact that nothing said at a Gathering is canon.
Greg Weisman

"I'm your father Angela!"

"Yeah, I figured that, so?"

"... She's your mother, Angela!"

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

<Brook Know what you mean they're pronounced the same way. I'm a star wars geek so just so you know there is no A in Qui-Gon.

Also, as a magazine pointed out In a world of Qui-Gons, Obi-Wans, and Anakins, where did Padame come up with Luke? Did George Lucas name him after himself?

Imagine of James Earl Jones had voiced Goliath

Goliath to Demona "I find your lack of faith disturbing"

spideyforever

Greg B> "Sometimes, I just think that there's a desire, maybe even not a conscious one, to "Christianize, educate and civilize them lowly savages."

Come now Greg, don't you secretly believe in your heart of hearts that the world would be much better off if everybody agreed your values and ideals. ;)

I imagine everyone feels that way on some level or another.

Algernon

@ Greg B: Every time I watch this dialogue in Awakening, I must think of Ralf Wiggum:

Hudson: "Why must you humans name everything! Does the sky have a name? Does the river have a name?"

RW: "... I once fell in the Hudson, but I was saved by a whale baby!"

Hudson: "Fine, so be it..." etc.

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Sometimes, I just think that there's a desire, maybe even not a conscious one, to "Christianize, educate and civilize them lowly savages."
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

At one time, I would have agreed with those who are saying that when looked at alone, the way Goliath and Angela interact in the later World Tour episodes might seem to privledge biological parenting over the latter.

BUT, as time's gone on, I'm beginning to change my mind, and it started when I began digging under the surface of those lines instead of taking them at face value. How much of what Goliath, Angela, and Demona do and say to each other actually could absolutely NOT be reconciled with a gargoyle view? Couldn't referring to "our daughter" in "Hunter's Moon" mean, "our daughter from the rookery generation that we both should be parents to"? The idea that since Goliath says it with such depth of feeling means it *has* to be in favour of biology doesn't hold water if they're from a culture that doesn't make biological parenting the be-all and end-all.

Couldn't Demona's obsession with Angela and comparative disinterest in the rest of the Avalon Clan be because the only time Demona was interacting with them, she was under a spell that drove her to kill them? (a spell, mind you, that was temporarily broken at the sight of Angela AND Gabriel when Goliath referred to them?). And Greg W. did say that Demona was influenced by humans more than she cared to admit, also, making anything privleding biology to be a gargoyle fluke, and not a sign of a change in overall parenting attitudes.

I know it's hard not to think like a human because we *are* human, but what sounds like something to a human might sound different to a gargoyle, and it would be good to keep that perspective. Ask yourself if trumping biological relationships is really that essential and unnmovable a trait.

I wonder if it would be different if the series had shown Goliath, or someone else, be a vengeful protector of a non-biologically-related rookery child?

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

LITWOLF> Well, Demona is very atypical. Kind of ironic that she, maybe the most corrupt of all gargoyles, is also the most "human" of all of them.

But also, keep in mind, Angela is the only one of her children that she knows. Who knows what might happen if she met Gabriel, Ophelia, or any of the rest.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

As for Luke and Han: I just twisted their names up. I'm not too much into Star Wars, to me it's like confusing Obi Wan with Quai Gon's firt name.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

@ Greg B: Yeah, I meant a more modernised aproach to the communal way, kind of like how Gargoyles did apply names over time, that is still raising the children int eh social community, but with an awareness of who your parents are, in contrast to the middle ages, where they did not seem to be aware. That is what interrests me. For example, Boradwaydoesn't seem to be aware of being the biological son of Hudson, probably because he does not care. Although Angela also regards the clan as her family, she is interrested in the awareness who are her biological parents, similiar to an adopted kid who wants to know who are his biological parents, yet regards his adoptive parents as his parents still.

I know it is tiny and might not really matter, but it interrests me in what way the Gargoyles POV might have changed here.

As for the image, I wasn't aware o that. Could you provide me with an email, then I'll be glad to ask her. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Even if Goliath does his best not to care about the genes he and Angela share, he does use that bond at times, mostly when he's talking with Demona.

In the last part of Hunter's Moon, after breaking the Praying Gargoyle, he tells Demona that now they can all die... including THEIR daughter. And, in the Reckoning, Demona tells Goliath to save THEIR daughter. I feel like they both meant 'Our biological daughter' and not 'a rookery daughter'. I feel like there was a possessivness in saying 'our/their' daughter.

Anyway, my point is that, even if Angela has moved on from focusing on Goliath as her biological father, she still seems to actively seek Demona to be her biological mother and Demona is all for that. Demona, at the very least, cares about the genes they share. Demona's forgotten about living in a Clan; she also seems to forgotten about being a rookery mother to the entire rookery.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Sorry for yet another post, but...

Brook> I see that you still have the Coney Island pan that you stole from DTaina up on your forum. She made that, those pans can take a long time to edit, and a lot of hard work. I know you didn't have permission to use it. That's called stealing.

Take it down, or ask her permission.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Okay... time to quote the Weis Man. ;)

***

Goliath was very concerned about playing favorites. Angela, to his mind, was way too concerned about him as her BIOLOGICAL father. To his upbringing, that showed bad taste. Of course, she was raised differently. Once Diane Maza pointed out to Goliath that Angela was the only daughter in the vicinity, Goliath lept at the chance to be her dad. It's not that he didn't love her, but he was a novice father and he didn't want to screw up.

***

1) Did Goliath kind of already know that Angela was his biological daughter before the events in 'Monsters' happened but just didn't say he already knew? The reason i ask this is that in "Avalon: Part 1" Elisa points out that Angela looks like Demona, but with different coloring, Goliath knows what he looks like and what Demona looks like, so maybe he figured in his own head Angela was his biologic child. Also, in "Shadows of the past" as Goliath shows Angela the rookery he looks at her, at that same time he hear Demona saying "Come to me".

Greg responds...
Yeah, I think Goliath figured it out instantly. And I think he instantly felt a kinship with her. But also with Gabriel, who isn't his biological son. Goliath doesn't have the same "social programming" we do with regard to biological offspring.

***

That Angela was his daughter by anyone's definition, including his own. In the interest of trying to make her see the difference between gargoyle and human definitions of parenthood, he had neglected to be any kind of father. A lot of this came out of paranoia involving Demona. If Angela gave him special status as her biological father, she might also grant Demona special status too. Which in fact, she did. Though I don't think it harmed anyone.

***

I believe you've said that Gabriel will learn he's Coldstone and Coldfire's son (and I think vice-versa as well). To what extent will he *care* about this? As much as Angela cared about her own parentage? Less so? Will he be completely uninterested, considering only the Princess/Guardian/Magus to be his real parents?

Greg responds...
I think he'd care more than, say Broadway. Probably not as much as Angela. The difference is that Coldstone and Coldfire wouldn't care at all. That is, they'd be thrilled that all their children survived. To them, Angela is as much a daughter as Gabriel is a son. They were too distracted to deal with that in Possessions. But if I had been able to get back to that....

***

Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one.

***

In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.

As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.

Later, he NEVER denies her as his child. He simply is uncomfortable with her focus on him as her biological father. This also mixes in guilt -- survivors guilt this time. And a healthy fear that if she responds this way to him being her biological father, then how will she respond when and if she learns that Demona is her biological mother. If she had simply been calling him father from the get go, he'd have had no problem. But she didn't until she got word from Sevarius about biology. That's what troubled him. She wasn't thinking like a gargoyle. When "Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan" that's not just a means of putting her off, it's not just something to say. That's how he was raised. That means something to him.

In any case, the Thailog and Angela situations are so widely different, it's really comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly don't see any inconsistencies in Goliath's behaviour.

***

Some gargoyles will develop stronger relationships with some. With that many parents, siblings, children, etc. running around, it's natural. But neither "shunned, frowned upon, or generally accepted" fits the bill to my mind. Amd citing Hudson/Goliath hardly proves anything. Hudson's pre-massacre relationship with anyone else in Goliath's generation has not been explored. Nor has Goliath's relationship with anyone else from Hudson's generation even been touched on.

In Panther, Goliath is NOT having trouble with Angela's "unusal need for parents". He's concerned about what her specific need to acknowledge their BIOLOGICAL relationship might mean... both in terms of his relationship to the rest of the Avalon Clan and especially HER relationship to her biological mother.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

I think I've found promo material for the long-lost Gargoyles comedy development: http://is.gd/jZl5
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

REBEL> <<Let's pretend for a moment that Angela WASN'T the one to choose to go with Goliath. Would he have reacted as strongly in Hunter's Moon as he did when he thought Angela was dead? If Gabriel had been the one to go, would he have said, (paraphrased from Hunter's Moon) "I swear on my son's life that I will hunt them down. And I will kill them.", with the same vehemence that he did when he thought Angela was dead?>>

Yes. Gabriel is his son.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

BROOK> <<I think in the future, the clans will still regard one generation of offspring as their children, but also have a more humanised/modernised way of looking at their children biologically. >>

Greg Weisman has said, at the recent Gathering, that that is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Dude, you're wrong on this. He called the communal raising something that's just fundamental to them. Sorry.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Brook<What if Luke and Leia had done it before finding out they were related? How can you confuse Han with Luke that's just wrong. It's like confusing Spider-Man with Batman.
spideyforever

I personally think that the show itself makes Angela and Goliath's relationship unclear. If I never went to this website, I would assume from watching the episodes that Angela and Goliath have a special relationship because he is her biological father--a special relationship that he does not share with the other gargoyles in her rookery. Sure he loves them and feels that he is a father to all of them, but it seems to me (from watching the show) that his relationship with Angela is different and special.

Let's pretend for a moment that Angela WASN'T the one to choose to go with Goliath. Would he have reacted as strongly in Hunter's Moon as he did when he thought Angela was dead? If Gabriel had been the one to go, would he have said, (paraphrased from Hunter's Moon) "I swear on my son's life that I will hunt them down. And I will kill them.", with the same vehemence that he did when he thought Angela was dead? I know that according to "the Gargoyle way", he supposedly would, but I find it really hard to believe that he would have reacted just as strongly if it was any other hatchling. I think finding out that they were biological parent-and-child, and the subsequent drama over it, brought Goliath and Angela closer together. While I suspect that he cares deeply about all of them, I think he cares more about Angela (partly due to having spent more time with her and partly due to the biology thing).

I wish that someone else had joined the World Tour in addition to Angela. This way, we could have had an additional character in the main cast, AND we could have seen gargoyle parenting in action, because we would have seen Goliath acting as a father to BOTH Angela and the other gargoyle. If there had been two gargoyles that joined the quest, it could have been made really clear that he feels the same way about all his children regardless of biology. But as it is, I think the show itself doesn't make this clear. I don't think I would realize the true nature of Goliath and Angela's relationship (and Goliath's relationship with all his children) if it weren't for coming to this site and reading what Greg W has to say about this.

Maybe there will be a future adventure on Avalon in the comics and this issue will be touched upon.


Also, I have a question about rookery parents. Are ALL the gargoyles who are capable of producing/fathering an egg considered the rookery parents of a given generation, or just the ones who ACTUALLY produce/father an egg? I've heard it said that Lexington will be a rookery father to Artus, despite him not producing/fathering an egg in that rookery. If this is the case, doesn't that also mean that Goliath is a rookery father to Artus? After all, if Goliath had a gargoyle mate he would be capable of fathering an egg in Artus' rookery. I hope this makes sense.

Rebel

*just no figures he confused Han with Luke*

Oh no...

OH!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

"Luke/Leia/Han love triangle "

I will never understand why peple speak of a love triangle... For one, Han Solo is pretty A-Sexual, just look at him. And I can't remember one scene where he tried to 'give it' to Leia, ya know...

*shudders*

"So "not at all"? Unless you mean that Angela saw Demona as her mother much as Luke saw Vader as his father."

Well, yeah. If Han never saw vader as his father, the films would have been so much more... lame.

ANd what you just wrote about 2198 lifted some lead off my shoulders, for I'd love to see them around a bit longer. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Brook> "And that thing with Angela further confuses me... the show really pushes it into the direction that Angela wants to have a strong bond with her biological parents - or at least the knowledge that these two are her parents and accept it, instead of going "Hey, we are all your parents, eat your food and shut it!". This is one occasion where Greg Ws posts almost contradict the show, because I've always understood it the way that Angela saw both Demona as her mother, equal to, say, how Han Solo saw Darth Vader as his father."

So "not at all"? Unless you mean that Angela saw Demona as her mother much as Luke saw Vader as his father.

My feeling is that Angela still does have more of an interest in biological parentage than the average gargoyle. It's understandable: she was raised by humans and Goliath did a rather awful job of introducing the communal parenting concept to her by taking it to mean "Since Angela is my biological daughter and I can't favor her because of it, I'm going to stop treating her like my daughter and resist having any kind of special relationship with her at all." At this point, I think it's something she understands in theory, but she hasn't internalized it yet. Even as late on as issue #6 of the comic (although it is a flashback), she's still dwelling on biological relationships, even thought she admits that she knows she shouldn't. Arriving in Manhattan may have helped things a little, showing her that she did have a larger family of gargoyles ready and more than willing to accept her as one of their own, even if it wasn't as big of family as she was accustomed to. But still, Goliath is the only rookery parent she's had a long term positive relationship with. Talking to Broadway about his own childhood may help Angela understand communal parenting more since she'd be getting a first hand account of the experience from someone she's very close to. But again, I think she'll only see it as something she'll be doing with her own children when she gets to experience it for herself.

"(I just now realised that both Coldfire and Coldstone will die, for they're not in the 2198 pitch)"

Maybe. We still don't have everyone who might be alive in 2198 present and accounted for. Macbeth isn't in the pitch either and if Demona is still around, there's a high probability that he is too. And we don't know anything about the potential descendants of Brooklyn and Katana and what they're up to in 2198. So they may be alive but, for some reason or other, take more of a supporting role in 2198.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

BROOK> "I've always understood it the way that Angela saw both Demona as her mother, equal to, say, how Han Solo saw Darth Vader as his father."

And the Luke/Leia/Han love triangle just got even ickier! Damn, Anakin got around didn't he? ;)

Algernon

It's pretty cool to see the "evolution" of gargoyle clanship. When we first meet them in the show, only one of them has an actual name and it was given to him by a human. The gargoyles themselves call each other "friend", "mentor", "brother" or in some cases, "angel".

I guess for us, as humans, we feel that there is a special connection between those that we call friend, mentor, brother or angel, where to a gargoyle it's like saying, "hey you". For to a gargoyle you are part of a clan, a family, and you should love and protect each other equally. You don't play favorites. You find a mate, you make some eggs and your species survives. The clan protects the eggs and treats the hatchlings just like they treat any other gargoyle.

Angela, of course, is a special case since she was raised by humans. I think when she calls Goliath "father" it's like when Goliath calls Coldstone "brother". There is a bond there, but not the same bond one would think that would be if they were humans using those same words.

It's like the old saying goes - "Any man can be a father, but it takes a special kind of man to be a dad." And Goliath is a "dad" to the entire clan, and that's what he was trying to stress to Angela that that is the gargoyle way. So call me father if you wish, but understand that you get no special treatment from me, and you'll be treated as I treat the others.

At least, that's how I've always seen it.

Anthony Tini

I think this might be nitpicky, but I see a difference in the clan-family term and the biological-family term. I mean, Nashville obviously will see the clan as his social family. But I guess he is one step further towards the biological parenting than others.

I think in the future, the clans will still regard one generation of offspring as their children, but also have a more humanised/modernised way of looking at their children biologically.

And that thing with Angela further confuses me... the show really pushes it into the direction that Angela wants to have a strong bond with her biological parents - or at least the knowledge that these two are her parents and accept it, instead of going "Hey, we are all your parents, eat your food and shut it!". This is one occasion where Greg Ws posts almost contradict the show, because I've always understood it the way that Angela saw both Demona as her mother, equal to, say, how Han Solo saw Darth Vader as his father.
How she will react towards Coldstone and Coldfire - and Iago - is indeed interresting.

(I just now realised that both Coldfire and Coldstone will die, for they're not in the 2198 pitch)<

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Supermorff, you make a good point. But Nashville will be the exception, not the rule. Both Brooklyn and Katana were raised traditionally according to the Gargoyle Way. I'm sure that, like Angela with Goliath, Nashville will have a special and close bond with his biological parents, but probably not because they are his biological parents, but because he spent so much time with them alone. Brook and Katana view their home clans as their families, and I'm sure they would talk about their clan's to Nashville and relate that they are his family then too. Upon returning to Manhattan, Nashville will view the Manhattan Clan as family already, with various relationships sure to follow. As for Tachi, hatching among the Clan, Greg has indicated she will get a lot of community parenting and that doesn't surprise me at all. Even if she is the only egg in her rookery generation, the whole Clan is her family. She may realize one day that her only rookery parents are Brook and Katana, but after being raised by the Clan as a whole, I'm not sure if that information will be all that meaningful to her.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Supermorff> "I also tend to agree with Purplegoldfish. There are times when Greg W's comments are not only interesting tidbits, but actually necessary to understand what's supposed to be going on in the show. Sometimes, it just isn't clear from the TV series or the comics alone."

I can accept this for a few little minor points here and there that would largely only come to the attention of fans who are analyzing every little bit of the show and comics. But if Greg's comments are necessary for understanding major themes and plot points in either the show or comics, I think that's a problem. Any story should stand on its own and should not require the author to hand out additional tidbits of information in order for the audience to understand it. If you need Greg to tell you that Goliath is still not at full strength even the night following being stabbed by Thailog because healing the injury still took a toll on his energy level, fine. Readers who are not such big fans would probably just accept that and it really doesn't take away from the story if you don't have that information. But if you need Greg's explanation to understand what haapens with Goliath and Angela's relationship in "Mark of the Panther," that's a problem. Personally, I'm not sure this is the case. I'd have to watch it again, but I'm fairly certain that Diane Maza never tells Goliath that he should be more loving to Angela because he is her biological father. My impression is that she's very used to being around cultures different from her own and, having raised three kids of her own, she's quite familiar with the challenges of ensuring that all of your kids get treated fairly and not "playing favorites." What she points out to Goliath is that Angela is the only one of his rookery children with him at the moment and he is the only rookery parent she's ever known. So if they develop a special relationship, it's not because they are biologically related, but because their choices and fate have brought the two of them together. If Gabriel had been the one to choose to leave Avalon, Goliath probably would have developed a special parent/child relationship with him as well.

I think the distinction between "father" and "rookery father" is largely irrelevant. Keep in mind that to most gargoyles, there is no distinction between the two terms. I think a lot of the use of the term "rookery brother" in episodes like "Her Brother's Keeper" and "Reawakening" is mainly for the benefit of the audience, so that we wouldn't get the impression that the Trio or Goliath and Coldstone were biological brothers. Once the concept of rookery siblings has been established, though, we see most gargoyles freely using the simpler terms "brother" and "sister" to refer to other gargoyles of their generation.

Does Angela use the term "father" in the more human sense? I'm not sure. I've heard it suggested that Angela is already familiar with the idea of communal parenting from a more practical standpoint because she and her siblings were raised by three humans, but I'm not sure if this is the case. We're talking about three humans with very little knowledge of gargoyle culture. Even though we know at least Tom was aware that gargoyles traditionally don't use names, all of the Avalon Clan members are named. I'm sure the Magus was involved in raising the young gargoyles, but because of their human upbringing, they may have regarded him more like a favorite uncle than one of their two fathers. Aside from which, three humans can't really provide the full effect of communal parenting, which would normal involve numerous gargoyle parents.

I think Coldstone and Coldfire will play a big role in the evolution of Angela's understanding of how communal parenting works. They will automatically regard her as a daughter and though she may never be quite as close to them as she is to Goliath, over time she may develop a parent/child relationship with them as well. It's also possible that Angela may get a chance to visit another clan someday and see communal parenting in action. Or maybe Broadway will tell her about his own childhood and give her some insight into what it's like to be raised by multiple gargoyles.

On the flip side, I think it is important to keep in mind that the Manhattan Clan will be something of a "blended family," with human and gargoyle members. So there may well be some cultural give and take. And I'm fine with that, just as long as neither culture becomes totally subservient to the other.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I also tend to agree with Purplegoldfish. There are times when Greg W's comments are not only interesting tidbits, but actually necessary to understand what's supposed to be going on in the show. Sometimes, it just isn't clear from the TV series or the comics alone.

Matt> You mentioned the possibility of a single gargoyle pair protecting their egg alone, without the support of a clan, and mentioned that if this happened frequently then perhaps gargoyles would treat offspring differently. Isn't this exactly what happens with Brooklyn and Katana's first two children? Admittedly, Tachi does hatch with the rest of the clan around her, but she's still technically only got 2 rookery parents. This is what surprised me about the suggestion that both Nashville and Tachi would see the clan as their parents: the clan AREN'T their parents, by even a gargoyle's definition. Only Brooklyn and Katana provided eggs for these two hatchings.

I'm not saying this will change the way any of the four think. If Brook/Katana lay a third egg, they'll probably raise it communally with Angela/Broadway's (and perhaps others?). When Nashville and Tachi eventually produce offspring (if they do), then they'll probably raise their children communally as well.

Angela calls Goliath "father". Would she call her other fathers that as well? Let's assume so. Nashville only has one person to call "father". Are we saying now that he never would?

Supermorff

I'm actually pleased PGFish has brought this up, since I tend to agree. Before finding my way to this site nearly a decade ago, I was very confused about what was going on with Angela and Goliath. I understand it now and totally see that they still are following the Gargoyle Way, but it took clarification from Greg W and re-viewing of the episodes in that light to see it.

I do feel that be all that as it may, Angela does have an interest in biological parentage and that that does influence her relationships with Goliath and Demona. Furthermore, I do think that Goliath sees all the Avalon Clan as his children, but I think it is obvious that he has a special relationship with Angela in particular. This is most clearly due to the fact that they've spent more time together than he has with the others, but Angela's insistence on him being "daddy" has clearly had an impact as well. It is easy to see how fans could misunderstand what is going on.

And Greg B, this isn't so much about the misconception that Angela is "culturally human". I don't think she is, and that is clear to me, but the problem here seems to be to what degree has Goliath become "culturally human"? Has he stuck to the Gargoyle Way completely? Does he feel a special kinship to Angela due to biology? Does he see Angela as more of an offspring than Gabriel or Ophelia? These are questions that are more difficult to answer, and not always clear by watching the show, though I hope in time it will become more obvious.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Greg B: yes, I know she calls him by his name as well, but that doesn't disprove the fact that he's the only one she calls father- and hasn't used the title for anyone else.

A person who's never looked at Ask greg could have a very valid argument for a more parent/child biological relationship.

Purplegoldfish

Purplegoldfish> I can understand where you're coming from. But here's the thing also. After "Mark of the Panther", she has called Goliath by name, on screen, thirteen times, and father only six times.

Yes, I counted.

We devoted a section to this at the GargWiki on the Misconceptions and Urban Legends About Gargoyles page.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Misconceptions_and_urban_legends_about_Gargoyles#Angela_is_.22Culturally_Human.22

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Coming out of lurk mode...

Rebel> As Patrick and Kerry Boyd have pointed out, there is biological precedent for communal raising of young and of animals raising young that is not their own. This happens especially among social species and probably a lot more often than you think.

But even if no other species did this, it would still make sense biologically. A lot of you are saying the Gargoyle Way is cultural and not biological and I don't wholly disagree, but I think culture follows biology. The Gargoyle Way evolved because of the realities of gargoyle reproduction and social setup. Gargoyles live in clans, family groups. Even in a large clan, there is a large degree of shared ancestry. (That alone suggests it is evolutionarily profitable to raise all the young, not just one's own.) Furthermore, all gargoyles of certain ages lay their eggs together. All at once. They all participate in protecting the rookery over the long haul and thus are already being very parental to the eggs before they have even hatched. Imagine a single pair of gargoyles laying an egg. They would have only themselves to rely on to protect the egg for 10 years. Instead, gargoyle clans all lay their eggs together and keep them in a central rookery, thus there are dozens or more adults watching over the clutch. This benefits everyone's genes. And when the young hatch, having dozens of parents continues to insure a better life for all. Some gargoyles can care for the young hatchlings while the others are hunting or whatever. For gargoyles, die to linked breeding cycles and clan social structure, communal raising is actually a boon to the species.

Brook> Broadway is actually two generations older than Angela's, though due to the sleep spell and the Avalon time thingie, they are nearly the same age.

As for the new Wyvern Clan, I tend to agree that they will be going basck to basics in that they tend to avoid advanced technlogies, rather relying on their natural assets to provide food and protection for themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if they did not take names either.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Just to play devil's advocate here... I just want to point out that at no time does Goliath call Angela his rookery daughter. He's referred to her as "my daughter" several times...and he's never called any of the other Avalon gargoyles "daughter" or "son". So I can see where people are getting that he picked up on the more human way of thinking. The fact that he regards Angela still as one of his many clan daughters is not readily apparent-in fact I was surprised when I first read that. Not to mention that Angela doesn't call anyone else "father" except for Goliath, not even Tom or the Magus. And she has also referred to Demona as her mother, but never Princess Katharine, who is more of a mother figure to her.
I'm not saying that this means anything in particular, I'm just saying that it's understandable that to a casual observer it does look as if they're putting biological relations above gargoyle culture.

Which is also why I hate that know it all snarky attitude from people on the other side of this argument. Whatever Greg Weisman's intent is, it's not something that's obvious. And not of all of us have the advantage of getting the inside scoop from Greg at the Gatherings.

Purplegoldfish

For the record, gargoyles are not the world's only communal nesters/caretakers. Many kinds of birds, as well as some fish and amphibians, have many females that lay eggs in the same nest (though obviously the level of parental care varies). Many social mammals also have some/all the members caring for (and the females nursing) all the young regardless of parentage.

Thus, there is biological precedent for the Gargoyle Way. And if we assume that most if not all of a clan is even distantly related, raising any child to adulthood is furthering the genes of the entire clan.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

A species that communally raises its offspring makes perfect evolutionary sense when the reproductive cycle takes ten years to go from egg laying to egg hatching. A lot can happen in those ten years. Biological parents can become injured or die. Communal care of the offspring ensures that all offspring of the group have the best chance of surviving.

This is hardly an unheard of concept in the animal kingdom. Not every organism on the planet cares only about its own personal survival. Just look at ants and bees, for starters.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Brook> That PAN of Coney Island in your forum was made by DTaina. I hope you asked her for permission to use it, and didn't just swipe it from her page or the GargWiki. Because it's not nice to just take things people work hard on.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Like this??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsfVw9xxoNY

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Brook > I always figured that the 'back to the roots' Clan would simply be doing their best to remove themselves from humans and modern day technology. Live a simpler like. Forgive me if this offends anyone but perhaps the Wyvern Clan could be considered to the Amish Clan, when compared to other modern day gargoyle Clans ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

I'm so fascinated by the Wyvern clan (the future Wyvern clan) because it is going "back to the roots", but from what we've seen and heard, most clans are still "on the roots"... My interrest is not that of a human, saying "Oh, they must live like this." but rather in what ways the clans will keep their identity in the near future, and how (and when) they change, or rather, "humanise".
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Rebel > The Gargoyle Way of raising children came from the time where gargoyles were often in very bloody battles, usually with humans. Because gargoyles died in these battles, the Clan didnt want a hatchling to grow up feeling alone because his/her birth parents were killed in battle. So, by being a child of the Clan and having dozens of mothers and fathers, in ensures that all hatchlings are loved and cared for with equal attention. Of course, a hatchling may become attached to a certain rookery mother or father, like how one can feel close to a particular aunt/uncle/teacher, but the Gargoyle Way ensures that all hatchlings are raised equally.

Youre thinking too much like a human, which is probably why some people do have a problem with how gargoyles raise their young. Gargoyles dont care about genetics or anything like that. They see the whole rookery as their children to be protected and raised at all cost. Personally, I would favor this over the human way if it could be done. I can imagine one could get sick of siblings after a while but you would always have someone to play with and there would always be a parent around to if you need them.

So yes, the Gargoyle Way seems to be cultural rather than biological.

Brook > I doubt any Clan is going to change their style of raising children any time soon. One, we know that Samson way down the road is considered a child of the Clan. And two, even the Clans would have been among humans for a long time (Ishimura and London) have not changed their ways.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

@ Rebel: Trust me, this changes when you get older. ;)
You can love a child as if it were your own, and adopting it is one way of making a lot of people lucky, because on the end, it doesn't have to be the genes that you pass on, but also your views on the world, character, sometimes even looks.

However, you made some really interresting and intelligent comments in there... I wonder about this a lot also. I's love to know from Greg if there has evere been any clan who changed their ways.

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Patrick > I certainly dont want to see the Gargoyle Way to raise children die but I think the only reason people question if modern day Clans will turn from this way is because of certain events that might see the human way of raising offspring come into play, such as the fact that Nashville will be raised by his birth parents during the TimeDance and Angela's slight obsession with her birth parents. Also the fact that the Manhattan Clan is so small that it would be impossible, with only two breeding pairs, to not know which hatchling came from which pair.

Of course, we do know that she sees Goliath more as a leader and less as a father and that Nashville will view Broadway, Angela, and Lex as more parents. As for Manhattan's small rookeries, I think there is a difference between simply knowing who your birth parents are and activly seeking them out for attention.

In other words, I dont think its that big of a deal if a gargoyle knows who its birth parents are as long as there is still a distance maintained so that the hatchling can be raised by the whole Clan.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

@ Patrick: By all standarts, this here is a board, where most, if not all information is lost after 2 weeks, and most discussions tend to end when another discussion is brought up.

This CR is missing structure - which is OK, because it is only a CR, but I was hoping for a more organised and differentiated place to discuss things, with people being able to contribute interresting ppoints 2 weeks in.

So I just thought "OK, why not try and do one?" after all these years of waiting...
So, if you'd join, it is highly anticipated. :) I hope that the forum gets rolling and starts standing on its own feet etc. Would be cool. :)

@ Greg B.: What exactly was I wrong about? I know that they will, I just stated that the EP Monsters and her comment towards Coldstone seemed to indicae that there is a more "human" touch to her POV, not that she is 100% into it and adapting it in the future. I was just wondering why she had this mild change of POV during the Avalon tour, in contrast to, say Broadway, who doesn't question her. (OK, he's one generation older...)
Then again, it is easily explained by Tom and the Princess raising them.

This is f particular interrest, because we know that various clans have adopted human behaviour over the decades and centuries, yet we do not know of any case where the parents "claimed" their children (god, this sounds awful). I cannot remember really, but didn't the Spartans have a view of children that was quite close to what we see in GARGOYLES?? I might be wrong here, but I remember from far away that Spartans did send away their kids and gave them an own identity by this...

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

It's not that I have trouble wrapping my head around a different species with different customs, and it's not that I want them to act human.

The problem I have is that I simply don't see how "the Gargoyle way" could have evolved in the first place, as it doesn't make sense to me, from a biological standpoint. In a nutshell, it simply doesn't make sense for an organism to devote time, energy, and resources to offspring that are not genetically their own. Why spread your attention around to all hatchlings equally when you could just give all your time, energy, and resources to your OWN child/ren, and thus MAXIMIZE the chances that you won't be a genetic dead-end?

If even a handful of gargoyles in the history of gargoyles ever felt that biological parentage was important, then "the human way" would have taken over, because the children of those Gargoyles would have been the most advantaged because their parents would have given them special treatment, and the children of Gargoyles who followed "the gargoyle way" would have been the least advantaged, because their parents would not have given them special treatment. Thus, the offspring of those who cared about biological parentage would have been the most likely to survive and pass on their genes, thus eventually a biological urge to care for one's own children and disregard others would have become the norm. So, I don't see how "the Gargoyle way" managed to survive. This is all presuming that "the Gargoyle way" is a biological imperative, rather than just a cultural thing. If it's purely a cultural difference then disregard all this.

And yes, I know humans sometimes adopt children and surely love them as much as biological children are loved, but usually they only do so AFTER they have discovered that they are personally infertile or have some terrible genetic disease. How many people who are capable of having their own children actually choose to adopt? Not many. And it probably has less to do with the fact that it takes forever to adopt and more to do with the fact that most people want to have their own kids. Frankly, I really want to have kids and I know I would be a great mom but if for some reason I can't have kids, there's no way I would adopt. Why spend all that money, time, and energy on someone else's kid? If I'm going to be a genetic dead-end, I might as well be rich and have a more stress-free life.

Rebel

If people weren't arguing about whether the gargoyles will switch to a more human style of raising families, they'd probably be arguing over why you can't change the past in the Gargoyles Universe if you travel back in time, or the limits of the link between Demona and Macbeth.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

spideyforever> The DVD isn't a sure thing yet. Timm wants to do it, but the question is whether the higher ups want it to be done.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Pardon my bluntness, but why do we need another Gargoyles forum? I'm happy with what we've got right here, and if overflow is needed for anything about the Gathering, we have a forum over there, too.

Re: "The Gargoyle Way" - I've never understood why this fandom has so many that can't wrap their heads around the concept of a different species with different customs, and wants to see gargoyles act like humans. I've never met a Star Trek fan who doesn't understand why Klingons and Vulcans have different customs and wants to see them act like humans. Maybe Goliath should have been more grouchy with Angela about her "acting human" just like Worf was with his son? :P

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Victorious> Fall 2009 or 2010
spideyforever

Greg B<Unless it was updated Bruce Timm's wiki or the DCAU wiki.
spideyforever7o

Brook> You do realize that Broadway and Angela are going to raise their hatchlings according to the gargoyle way. Right? Again, this came up at the Gathering, this year, and sorry. You're wrong about this one.

Also, the conversation started here, no need to try to re-direct it elsewhere.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Brook: Angela was raised by Tom, the Magus, and Katherine . . . she's been more exposed to human tendencies (such as names), regardless of only being one generation from Goliath's rookery.

As for Demona, I don't think she is the best bellweather for anything close to the "Gargoyle Way" :P

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

"3. An animated version of The Long Halloween."

^This!!

And 50/50 is pretty much only "We're missing the money, but once we have it, we are ready to go." which is far from "I'd like to do 65 Eps and then go adult on the DVDs."

Coldstone: I think both. I think it is alien to him, but also makes him realise something, at least for a bit. It also made a huge difference to Demona, and I guess it was a bit strnge for Goliath aswell to personalise Angela in the first place (what I thought Monsters dealt with... that and friggin Nessies).

I'm surprised how Angela rants in front of Coldstone about his son and how "He must know!" We were told many times that Gargoyles did not adapt that kind of thinking, yet Angela, who is only one Generation away from Goliath, has another POV on this...

(AGAIN, this discussion would make a great great thread in the new GARGOYLES forum, see link below. ;P)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Litwolf> Yeah, I'd tend to think they'd know when their mates lay eggs... unless they are completely inattentive assholes ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Rebel > I agree with Greg B. The way Coldstone said 'biological' always made me think of a young child saying a really long word that is difficult to understand. Like asking a five year old to say 'quadratic equation' and then asking that child to explain what that is.

Also, notice that Coldstone calls Angela a rookery daughter. Not Goliath's daughter, but a rookery daughter. One of dozens of other young gargoyles that Coldstone would consider to be his own child. I doubt Goliath even introduced her as his own daughter but rather said a rookery daughter or something like that. And he even tries to prevent Angela from saying anything about a biological child of Coldstone and his mate (Coldfire). So I dont think Coldstone cared about genetics at all.

Which brings me to a question I have always wanted to ask: do you think males (such as Goliath, Coldstone, Hudson, and any other mated male) know that their mate has laid an egg for the rookery? When learning that the eggs had survived, Goliath never mentioned or thought, 'That means the egg Demona laid survived!'. Not that he cares about that hatchling since it will be a child of the Clan but that a piece of his happiness with Demona was still alive. I think Im getting off track. We know that gargoyles dont care about genetics but would a mated male know or care that his female had bore an egg from their union? Well we dont know how much a female grows when pregnant so it might be obvious... sorry, I think Im rambling a bit.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

So, in other words, an idea was mentioned. That's not the same as an announcement.

If it was, Greg's Master Plan and all his spin-offs would be announcements. They're not.

50/50 in Hollywood Land is not an announcement. Once the money is there, and production begins, then you have an official announcement.

It seems to me a lot of people don't know the difference, for reasons I can't fathom. During an interview, Greg Weisman mentioned a desire to do 65 episodes of Spider-Man, and then some DVD movies. He even stressed that was not an announcement, and not even a business plan. Just a desire on his part... and people across the internet are running around like that was an official announcement and that's what is definitely going to happen.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Greg B> There's at least the DTV which is suppose to bridge the gap between JL and JLU (As well as The Crime Syndicate being introduced): http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=222

Other sources have said though that the chances of it being made are 50/50, so it's not guaranteed yet.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Spideyforever> There is no announcement from Bruce Timm of any Justice League Unlimited DVD film that I can find.

Please cite your source.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Rebel> Actually, I think this came up at the Gathering. Greg mentioned that the way Coldstone said the words "biological son" were meant to show just how alien the concept was to him.

He did call Angela his child later in that same issue.

Sorry.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Grrr, my pic. . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Rebel: But also realize that when he heard of Gabriel (through Angela, no less), he also realized that the Wyvern Clan's eggs somehow survived the Massacre that he couldn't even escape. Gabriel in a sense is just one of many eggs that are his children that he realized are still alive.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I think biological parentage does matter to some gargoyles. Look at how Coldstone reacted when Angela mentioned that Gabriel was his biological son in #6. Finding out that he had a biological son seemed to be the tipping point that made him realize he couldn't go with Goliath and co.
Rebel

AWESOMENESS can't wait do u know or did he stated when they are going to be out cause for DAMN SURE wonder woman won't do for me LOL
Victorious

As most people probably know Bruce Timm has said that there are going to be several DCAU direct to video films made. The first will be Justice League Unlimited which is about how they extended the league. Anyone want to see the following Batman projects

1. A movie starring Red Hood about his revenge on the Joker (which could be another reason Batman went solo after what happened to Tim Drake) Quote: Joker killing Jason Todd Bye, Bye, Birdie HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2. An movie about the Apocalypse of 2009 (it was stated in Batman Beyond that an apocalypse happened this year and was caused by Ra's.

3. An animated version of The Long Halloween.

4. An animated version of The Dark Knight Returns.

spideyforever7o

Phoenician> I'm not going to debate Sony Pictures marketing strategy, but spending a total of $62.96 for one complete season consisting of 13 episodes is crazy. SS-M is a great show and I'd love to buy it to support Greg, but I'll pass for now.
IAnthony Tini

Hey Stitch,

cool thing. :)
Could you register in the forum and PM me? A bit safer than posting it all here. ;)

I'm also looking for co-Admins and Mods, so if you want you could apply? Just drope me a PM. :)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

hey brook, if you still need help makeing the forum all "purdy-lookin'", im pretty good at photoshop and html.. i never did a forum before but if you wanna give me whatever links and access codes, i can take a crack at it.
sTiTcH

Sorry, meant to say April 28 . . . don't know why I said 15. DX
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

In the Spectacular Spider-Man news, TVShowsonDVD has the latest on the DVD:

Volumes II & III are coming out March 17. Volume IV comes out April 15.

Click on the link for Volume IV's cover art:

http://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Spectacular-Spider-Man-Volume-4/11325

I'm really tempted to buy these sets, though I'm still curious if there's a season set coming out as well . . . .

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

oh, thanx Battle Beast.
yeah, i know, Greg B. Just curious. :)

Irina
bf878b

Irina> Yes, but biological parentage really doesn't matter to gargoyles.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

Irina> Yes, Gre Weisman ahs stated that They are his Biological parents although he would have been raised by the whole clan.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

ARE COLDSTONE AND DESDEMONA Gabriel's biological parents?! I just noticed they look exactly alike!


THanx for the answer, Greg B. and Samuel. I guess I can see Goliath being more apologetic then anything. And also the fact that Angela was raised by humans also contributed to her curiosity about her biological parents, and Goliath wasn't used to that kind of behavior from a gargoyle.

Irina

Brook> IIRC, the specific reasons weren't given, but a common theory is because of the violent, wild lives that gargoyles often lead, not to mention their low birth rate, it makes more sense to have an arrangement that ensures all hatchlings are protected and raised. If gargoyles wanted to adapt nuclear family patterns, they could mark the eggs or something, or partition them off during the collective laying. But we have the word that they don't use this arrangement, and won't come to.

The reason some fans might feel touchy about this is that gargoyles' collective parenting is one of the few times that animated fantasy creates family arrangements alternative to what most of the human audience knows, and doesn't privlege the human experience over these new conceptions. Such things are important for ensuring creativity and diversity in media.

That, and a large chunk of gargoyles fandom has already gone to work at ignoring this factor for their personal universes. Which is fine for them, except when making gargoyles into nuclear families is presented as a superior form of parenting to the Gargoyle Way. It's more than a little anthrocentric to assume that gargoyles need humans to teach them to create stronger relationships.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

His wife? And kids?

Plus I'd rather have Greg Ws comics than anybody elses. ;p

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Clan structure: Wow. Greg Bishansky knows it all. There ya go. Who even needs Greg Weisman?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Now, now... Language.

REGISTERING TO THE FORUM:
http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/ucp.php?mode=register

:)

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Thx Spidey and stitch, looking forward for you signing up. :)
This is a hard thing to establish, so all help is appreciated.
Really, I want to make this a place for varried discussion and stored information. With the CR, we have to answer the same questions over and over again, with a proper forum, we can just re-direct people or bump threads. :)

@ Greg B: Haha, I wasn't saying that it would be like this, just curious if this would turn out that way. :)
But this is de-facto interresting.

"If that was true, why haven't gargoyles adopted a nuclear family structure *already* if it creates stronger parent/child bonds? Brooklyn and Nashville are going to be a fluke, not a revelation."

That exactly was my question, if any clan has "adjusted" this way...

Anyways, I don't know if this waas discussed - but were we ever given a reason why it is this way?
My guess would be due to the rookery and the various eggs, it simply would be impossible to say who fathered/mothered who.

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

@ BROOK
yea i never did understand the mistreatment of noobs.. how the hell do people become..lets say "veterines"..at something if they're not welcomed into the community to begin with??
i have a friend who likes to play D&D, and she met a fellow player at a starbucks. then after learning he was a noob she said "oh hell no i dont play with noobs! are you kidding!" and dragged me away. ..WTF!?! like she was never a noob!! like she was BORN an expert at the game!
*psh* anwyay, i'll try to sign up on that forum later.

sTiTcH

Brook> I had trouble signing up for your forum you know how?
spideyforever7o

Brook> Greg has talked about this before. Nashville, and later Tachi, will see the whole clan as their parents. Brooklyn and Katana, Nash will be closer to just because he's traveled with them and they were the only rookery parents around.

And no, no gargoyle clan has ever raised their eggs "the human way" and probably never will. Greg has called that a fundamental to gargoyle nature.

Sorry, you're wrong this time.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds

On the lighter side, Gargoyles TNG -> http://www.lilformers.com/index.php/2008/10/13/lil-formers-118-gargoyles-tng/

I fear it's the only Gargoyles related strip he has done (Transformers fans should take a dip in the archive, so be warned, the author apparently isn't a fan of the Bay movie.)

Anonymouse - [http://www dot lilformers dot com/index dot php/2008/10/13/lil-formers-118-gargoyles-tng/]

Brook> That's too much like saying adopted or step-children or the children in large families can't be loved just as much.

Brooklyn might have some trouble readjusting to the gargoyle fashions, but I doubt he's going to out and out feel that his circumstantial nuclear family is a de facto superior bond.

If that was true, why haven't gargoyles adopted a nuclear family structure *already* if it creates stronger parent/child bonds? Brooklyn and Nashville are going to be a fluke, not a revelation.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Illuminati -- Another thing, I do beleive Greg has hinted that all of the membership 'slots' aren't ALWAYS necessarily filled up. The death of an Illuminatus doesn't really mean that another member gets promoted. For all we know, Mace's old seat in the High 20's is still empty . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I didn't say that. I just mean if you stuck with your child for such a long time and you have such a very, very close bond to it and the knowledge it is your child and ALL your child, it would be hard. I mean sure, the clan is his family, but from what i understood, the clans shared the parenthood of the children, their education and all that. In a clan with 40+ children, this would be far less personal than 2 parents sticking with a hatchling for... how long, 20 years?
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Hey, Brook, what makes you think an acknowledged biological bond is stronger than The Gargoyle Way?

The message of the series was *not* that collective parenting was inferior and it weakens the parent/child bond. That very likely won't be turned around for Brooklyn's nuclear family, which is just an alternative due to circumstance.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

I would like to know if there is any clan at all that handled the issue of parentage in a human way.

I think it will be impossible for Brooklyn to see it 'in the old way', just as an example. He's got far too much of a bond with his child for this.

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

In a response to Irina's observation about Goliath accepting Thailog more readily than Angela, I think Goliath's acceptance of Thailog as "son" might have been almost an apology for calling him an abomination. Also, Goliath doesn't seem to have rejected Angela as his daughter, as much as trying to discourage her from focusing on actual genealogy. (of course, I could be imagining that, given that I haven't seen non-DVD episodes in some time)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Now, now... Language.

Vinnie > At the very least, their souls are. Even in a metal body, were Coldstone and Coldfire to meet the Avalon Clan, they would veiw those gargoyles as their children to protect and nurture. Coldstone did refer to Angela as a 'rookery daughter' when they met on the World Tour in the mountains.

Sorry, Im nitpicking right back =3

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Greg B.-<And, as for Angela. She has several living parents. Katharine and Tom. Goliath and Demona. Coldstone and Coldfire. May the Magus and the rest of her parents massacred by Hakon rest in peace.>

Coldstone and Coldfire aren't really alive though. Sorry to nitpick.

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Triple post sorry to avoid unnecessary comments I meant to type in don't know at the end.
spideyforever

Sorry about the double post but a youtube user called webslingspideyswing has uploaded the first 4 episodes of season 2 of The Spectacular Spider-man from Canada. Just in case you know.
spideyforever

@ Spidey: I incorporated a TSS-forum in the GARGOYLES Forum: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/spectacular-spiderman-f19.html :) Hope you'll like it. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

<Antiyonder There was some unnecessary insults and I'm not putting up with any kinds of nonsense towards me on here. I'm just ignoring them.
spideyforever

GUYS AND GUYSETTES!!

I am very glad to announce that http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/ is open!!

I suck at web design, so this is still pretty... rough... (if somebody knows how to upload rad looking headline-pictures, let me know.)

After The comment room is getting more and more crowded and harder to look over, I decided to do this. Let's face it - as cool as the comment room is, spamming retards, fighting and theme-jumping made it all a bit hard to digest. Many newbies got scared off (regardless of how they were treated) because they were not welcomed or weren't taken seriously.

So, here goes this all new Garg forum!! With a huge OT-section and all. Rad designs comming up. :)

Have fun.

http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/

You can get the trade paperback of the first six issues at Amazon or about every other book store (ISBN-10: 1593620969; ISBN-13: 978-1593620967, either should work, they are just switching formats).

The second trade paperback with issues 7-12 and the Bad Guys trade paperback are supposed to come out some time this year.

Anonymouse

Hello all, it's been awhile since I've been here but I am in need of some help.

The store in which I buy my comics has only been able to get the first 5 issues of the New Gargoyle comic book series and no matter what the store owner has done he has yet to tell me anything different other than the usual "I'm sorry but nothings come in"

Have any of you ran into this problem?

If not or if so how can I fix this problem?

In all Honesty I am getting majorly irritated (owing to the fact that I haven't even seen the issue with Griff who was a favorite character of mine since the animated series) what ever anyone could tell me would be greatly appreciated) Thanks!

April - [violet_twister8 at yahoo dot com]
"To weird to live, to rare to die."~Hunter S. Thompson

Denis? My condolences.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I remember a discussion once about the portrayal of the Illuminati in the Goliath Chronicles which gave a possible credible argument for why they'd wear those hokey-looking hooded robes during meetings: to keep the members from finding out each others' identities. (Though I doubt that the people who made that episode had it in mind; they seem to have just followed the familiar portrayal of the Illuminati, in other works, as a moustache-twirling secret society of evil-doers, ready to bring chaos and misery to the world just to increase their wealth.)
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

It wouldn't be much of a SECRET society if everybody in it knew everything.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

From what I've seen, a lot of the Society's members don't seem to know who else is in the Society. For example, I think Greg said at the last Gathering that Xanatos doesn't know Thailog is a member. Castaway obviously doesn't know about Thailog, because of what the Illuminati have been telling him. And on that note, Castaway didn't know who Hacker was until he saw the emblem on him, and the same thing with Thailog and Shari at the end of Gargoyles #5.

So, theoretically, a member could live most of their lives without meeting another member, unless they come to him. And whoever Number One is, I'm sure they'd hear about it if someone else was killing other members of the Society.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Once a man has seen, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled." -Rorschach ("Watchmen")

Okay, I thought of this question after watching "Revelations", wrote it on a sticky note a while back, and then forgot. I found the sticky note.

What keeps the Illuminate from killing each other off? I mean, wouldn't some of the members (if not all of them) want to go up in rank in the secret organization? And the only way to do that is if you take the position/rank of someone else who has either been promoted up in rank or has died. So what keeps these members from doing each other in? So, anyone wanna take a stab at that?

Charisma82
"Why should things be easy when they can be hard?"

Denis> Sorry about your godmother. Hope you and the rest of your family are feeling ok.

spideyforever> This is the last time I'll say it. Criticism doesn't equal insults. Discussions would be boring if everyone involved had a yes man attitude.

Antiyonder

This is with a heavy heart that I announce you the passing of my dear godmother, this morning at 5:15 am CET.
She has suffered last week of a major heart attack. She joined her husband peacefuly in her sleep.
May she rest in peace

Denis - [quinceyfordersl at gmail dot com]
He's fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun

(9)Niner, Niner!(9)
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Eighth in the name of...pudding?
lonerider26

Seventh.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Purplegoldfish: Heheheh...

I claim sixth! Unless someone posts before me, then it's seventh!

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Fifth!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

I claim the spot indicated by 2 raised to the 2nd power in honor of February
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Third!

Spideyforever:...nah, too easy

Purplegoldfish

Oh now I get it It was confusing at first but he said he thought isn't that bad. I thought he thought I called him bad. My response made it even more confusing. Sorry for the mix-up Victorious.

BTW Anyone who bashes my comments or sends out insults or calls me names or any other such nonsense is just wasting time typing and wasting time typing because guess what I'm ignoring it all which is you mature people should be doing instead of adding fuel to the fire. No one's perfect sheesh.

spideyforever

Ooh, first at (roughly) the stroke of midnight.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."