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Gargoyles

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Comments for the week ending September 27, 2010

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Triple! First, a correction to my misspelling of genitalia.

Second, I dont know how to post an isolated comment link so I will copypasta two responses I found in the archives.


Question received on Sun, November 26, 2000 11:32:14 AM
Aris Katsaris writes...
This question (or one similar to it) was also asked in that adult Gargoyles chat of a couple months ago but I notice it was overlooked...
Do you feel that clothes is yet another custom (like names) that the Gargoyles species adopted from humans? (and probably for the sake of humans) With both their tougher skins and their better resistance against temperature extremes, gargoyles would seem to have less actual need for clothes. And the tidbit you've given us about Caesar Augustus seems to imply that it's again the humans who have a greater sense of "decency" related to clothes and nudity.
So... did gargoyles wear clothing before they started interacting with humanity?
If no, at what period of time do you feel the Wyvern clan started wearing clothes? 971? Decades before 971? Centuries before? Prehistorical times? etc...
Greg responds...
They might have. For example, modesty aside, I'm generally more comfortable wearing underwear (briefs) unless I'm asleep. I know my wife prefers to wear a bra if she's doing anything active.
If the above seems cryptic, I'm trying to be discreet, but it's an issue of, shall we say, "swingage".
Having said that, I'm sure modesty and humanity played a roll. Codified things, etc.
I certainly think humans have more uptight rules about this kind of stuff than gargs generally do.



Ruth Lang writes...
OK, this page is a great idea, and I'm glad I finally found it.
I've been trying to work out how GOliath's loincloth is tied. All the others (except Hudson,who has trousers) have their loincloth s just over front & back, nothing going underneath to keep things secure. ANd I just can't make a single piece of cloth fold around the way Goliath's seems to be. I'm sure it has be only one piece, because that's the way Scots did most of their clothes.
I'm going to have to spend a lot more time on this place and see if anyone else has come up with my theory on gargoyle sex etc, based largely on what they wear, or rather how. ANd figure out who all those characters are in the age list, I've seen all the episodes now but half of them I can't recall hearing of. What Othello & whatshername in Legion? COldstone's mate doesn't have a name, they're characters in something of Shakespeare.
Greg responds...
There is, of course, a part of the loincloth that goes "underneath". Trust me, Goliath et al are not just out there blowing in the wind. It is still one piece, it just folds over the belt with space cut out for the tail in back.
Othello is the name we use to refer to Coldstone before he became Coldstone. The actual character doesn't have a name. It's just a reference.
Desdemona is the name we use to refer to Coldfire before she became Coldfire. The actual character doesn't have a name. It's just a reference, though we did use the Desdemona name in the credits for actress C.C.H. Pounder.
Iago is the name we use to refer to Coldsteel before he became Coldsteel. The actual character doesn't have a name. It's just a reference, though we did use the Iago name in the credits for actor Xander Berkeley.


In both comments Greg makes comments that can lead one to assume the gargoyles have external genitalia.

Lurker

Sorry for the double.

Swinging is quite a descriptive word to use for female gargoyle mammaries.

Lets go with, jiggling and/or bouncing.

Lurker

Matt> Because all the adult fanart I have seen of Gargoyles has depicted it as such.

Im kidding. Well, obviously female gargoyles would have the problem of their chesticles swinging.

As for males, I was going off of fuzzy memory and a bit of logic. Didnt Greg say at a Blue Mug that gargoyles genetalia is like that of a human and that the loincloth holds everything in place?

Also, stuff doesnt have to be protruding to warrant protection. Simply having a form of protective covering, no matter how penetrable could be enough to keep some stray stuff from doing some damage.

Think of it like falling down while wearing a leather jacket. The jacket gets scratched but you dont suffer any broken skin.

Lurker

I've been in Greg's "Spectacular Spider-Man" office a few times. The board is real, and yes, he is a genius.

Don't let that swell your ego too much, Greg! ;)

Greg Bishansky

Batman: Brave and the Bold writers praise Greg's story-editing style: http://www.toonzone.net/news/articles/35199/toonzone-interviews-james-tucker-and-michael-jelenic-on-the-siege-of-starro

---
JAMES TUCKER: Sometimes, we'll talk about something early on, and then it'll just kind of go into the back of our memories and then as we get closer to the event, we'll say, "Oh, yeah, we said we were going to do this." So, it's not like we had...well, we do have a chart, but I don't know if he was on the chart.

MICHAEL JELENIC: (Laughs) If you could see how we plan our seasons, our chart is like on a giant Post-It note that we basically come up with in two hours, and (laugh) then that determines the next 13 episodes.

JAMES TUCKER: Some shows have this whole wall full of stickers and index cards...

MICHAEL JELENIC: Like Greg Weisman, who's working on Young Justice...

JAMES TUCKER: Oh, yeah.

MICHAEL JELENIC: ...I call him the Professor, because he's got that Young Justice stuff meticulously planned, and it's like perfect. He is, like, way, way smarter than me (laughter).

JAMES TUCKER: (laughing) Yeah, it's the polar opposite of this show. Not to plug that show indirectly, but we are (laughter). I think fans will enjoy that, too, but it's like the antidote to us.

MICHAEL JELENIC: (laughing) It's just a different way of working.

JAMES TUCKER: It's not better or worse, it's just...

BOTH: ...different.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Not Demona; she no longer turns to stone during the day.

Once a spell is cast, I don't think that moving away from point zero would make any difference (unless the spell specifically says so, e.g. the Magus' sleep spell).

Now, it's possible that the Humility Spell has some clause to the effect that it will last until a gargoyle escapes the earth's gravitational pull, but that's highly unlikely.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

VINNIE> Demona turns into a human during the day, you know.
Greg Bishansky

Another random silly thought. Is there a range to the humility spell? Like if a gargoyle perhaps Demona after the spacespawn war chased the former alien rulers to far and then woke up on another world without clothes.
Vinnie - [tpeano20 at hotmail dot com]

I hope everyone is writing letters to Disney about the MODs for Gargoyles season 2 volume 2...it may seem like a hopeless effort, but I actually think this stands a decent chance if enough people write. :)
Patrick Gilchriest - [prgilchriest20 at yahoo dot com]

BRIAN> Most likely, it's just a bootleg.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Ehi guys I've been in this site: http://www.newwebstar.com/video/107911-gargolas-heroes-goticos-completa-dvd-full-8-dvds.html
Did gargoyles DVDs arrive in some spanish country? Could some one of you explain to me this?

Brian Bartoccini

Random thought of the day: A gargoyle who slept nude wouldn't be affected by the Humility Spell at all.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

See the kind of mental gymnastics that are required to apply logical to an in-world explanation of something that's really a animation cheat mandated by S&P?

"A wizard did it." That's all you need to know. :P

Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

BRAINIAC> One tthing to keep in mind is that as far as we know, the "You have to see and hear magic for it to effect you" rule only applies to mortal magic like the spells in the Grimouroum. The Roman Magus was using both the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gat when he cast his spell. Tapping into their Avolonian sorcery may have allowed him to circumvent the normal rules.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Brainiac> Bit more: how does an object 'know' if a gargoyle considers it to be a possession? It's in the mindset of the gargoyle, so how can the spell work without affecting the gargoyles if, on any given night, the amount of 'possessions' affected by the spell is determined by the gargoyles?
Supermorff

Brian> We don't know. Greg hasn't revealed that. Presumably yes, at least in some form, because the idea of a 'Liberty Clan' would seem to indicate that the earth has reclaimed some form of liberty after the invasion. Is it as simple as 'the gargoyles beating the evil alien'? Not a clue.

Brainiac> Ah, I've gone back to Paul's original question - I must have totally skipped over that paragraph, my bad.

Anyway, I don't see how the spell could have been thought to affect the gargoyles' possessions, since any given item can be a possession on one night and not a possession on another, depending on the gargoyles' point of view. So that would mean the spell wouldn't just have to affect the possession of the gargoyles at the time it was cast, but all objects that then existed and ever would exist, on the off chance that someday some gargoyle might possibly consider it as a possession. On the other hand, a gargoyle is a gargoyle is a gargoyle, and every gargoyle that would ever exist must have descended from those gargoyles alive at the time the spell was cast. I just kinda think that it's more reasonable to assume the seeing-and-hearing clause was broken, considering the Eye of Odin is an object of Oberati magic and we've already seen instances of Oberati magic not being bound by that restriction.[/WALL OF TEXT]

Lurker and Matt> Let's assume that there are reasons for gargoyles wearing clothes while active. That's not necessarily a reason to keep them on during the day, knowing that they'll be completely destroyed at sundown.

Supermorff

Matt> What do you want say, exacly?
I know that maybe my question is stupid, but I read in Gargwikipedia what will happen in 2198.
In there I did not find nothing that can tell if gargoyles will win the aliens, so I've asked it in the C. Room

Brian Bartoccini

Brian> Good question.

Lurker> What you are assuming is that gargoyle genitalia just swings in the wind. I see no evidence of external genitalia in gargates. The various beasts we've seen have never shown obvious genitals on the males or females. Neither has Zafiro.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

Thank you Mr. Bishansky; there is an other thing that I did not understande: Will the Gargoyles win the invaders alien in 2198?
Brian Bartoccini

It sounds like everyone is assuming that the only reason gargoyles wore clothes was because the Romans wanted them to. And because it was the Romans, the other gargoyles in the world were naked. I could be wrong in that assessment but thats how I interpret these comments.

What people arent considering is the functionality of clothes. They dont just cover your bits and goodies. They protect and secure them. Gargoyles have seen their share of battle and the last thing anyone wants is for their various sensitive areas to be swangin' freely. So, one could assume, they started wearing clothing to keep their pleasure points out of harm's way.

This would explain why gargoyles around the world were wearing clothes as well.

Lurker

escofolly >> Assuming it's San Diego Comic-Con you're referring to, then Greg has been attending the last 2-3 years (as far as I know) promoting projects he's been working on along with signing autographs.

We have yet to find out if he'll be attending in 2011...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>**)> Full of chicken...

Supermorff> You're missing the point of the question Paul raised. You can make the argument that the Humility Spell affects the posessions of all gargoyles rather than the gargoyles themselves. It could thus be considered an indirect magical effect, much like fulmenos venite or saeth. Like Greg Weisman once said, "Robbins would not be immune to Archmage lightning, because the magic creates the lightning. Once created it's free to zap as many blind men as it can." As such, the escape clause and see/hear restrictions may not be in effect. It's therefore possible to claim that the combination of artifacts was more to power the long-lasting and global effects of the spell rather than removing the restrictions of sight and sound as well as escapism for mortal magic. It all depends on whether or not the spell was being thought of as effecting gargoyles or effecting their inanimate posessions. It's all about mindset.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Escofolly> I'll add an entry for them asap.
Greg Bishansky

good discussions does anyone know if Greg is attending comic con? I will attend anime con anyone else got the same idea?
escofolly - [escodr3s at yahoo dot com]
Dres

I'd like to suggest a profile or maybe profiles for Garg Wiki. Demona's henchmen from The Mirror, the ones who stole Titantia's Mirror and the henchmen from Hunter's Moon Part I. In fact, in his ramble for Hunter's Moon Part I, Greg Weisman mused if the henchman who delivered the bad news to Demona that they were not successful in the theft could possibly be one of the henchmen from The Mirror.

Apparently, one of them has a history with Demona because when they deliver ed Titania's Mirror, the thief said he had done this before, i.e. stole for Demona and dropped off merchandise for her in the past.

Richard Jackson - [rickymtj at yahoo dot com]

BRIAN> Where on GargWiki did you read that? You don't mean the Liberty Clan, do you? Because that clan won't exist until shortly after 2198.
Greg Bishansky

That is hitting me now: I've read in Gargwikipedia there is a clan of gargoyles in Canada; did the gargoyles collaborate with native americans too as well as the romans and the japaneses?
Brian Bartoccini

Brainiac> Well, the three objects must have been used to override the usual restrictions of mortal magic, since the spell affected all gargoyles and yet magic requires someone to both see and hear it in order to be effective.
Supermorff

Thank you again Algernon.
I have an onther comment: 3 weeks ago I saw an episode of Scooby-Doo, he was in Paris and he met a(false) gargoyle.
Do you imagine this?: Goliath and his clan possibly meet Scooby-Doo and his friends.
I know it can't be possible because they live in two different universe.
And I saw a Dragon Ball video with Gargoyles song; I red a comment of guy, to imagine Demona and Dott. Gero allies against Goku and his friends and the gargoyles. I know this too it is impossible like a canonic story, and is it like, for example, Hulk vs Superman.
What do you all think of that I've wrote.

Brian Bartoccini

Actually, Paul makes a good point as well. The spell is affecting gargoyles' posessions, technically not gargoyles themselves. It's kind of like how a bolt of fulmenos venite can still hurt a person; the magic affects the lightning directly and the person indirectly. If the spell was based in mortal magic, that could have been a key point; perhaps the Grimorum, Eye, and Gate were more to fuel the "size" of the spell rather than to override the restrictions of mortal magic.

As to the Roman Magus having advance knowledge of the potency of those objects when used in combination, there is one way he could have gotten it...just apply a little circular logic and a closed timelike curve.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

BRIAN> Here's the full transcription of what the Spirit of Destiny said to Xanatos...

"…Pointless, David Xanatos, to substitute yet another stone to fool the Illuminati… Do you think the Spirit of Destiny can be contained in one vessel? I am the Fatal Stone. The Lia Fáil. The Stone of Bethel and Jerusalem, of Egypt, Samothrace and Portugal… The Stone at Tara and of Mora, at Iona and of Scone, in London and in Edinburgh… I am the Blarney Stone, the Coronation Stone, the Hero Stone… I am the Pillar Stone, the Stone of the Sword, the Stone of the Waters, Clach-na-Cinneamhain… The Tanist Stone, the Philosopher's Stone, the Standing Stone, the Cornerstone… The Foundation Stone, the Megalith Dance, the Burden of Sisyphus… I am the Rock of Gibraltar, the Pillar of Hercules, Uluru, Clach Sgà in… Jacob's Pillow, the Rosetta Stone, the Rune Stone, Sire of the Wyrd… I AM THE MANTLE OF FATE… I AM THE STONE OF DESTINY… I AM THE ROCK OF AGES! Do not dream of possessing me, mortal."

The Stone of Destiny doesn't seem to have any actual power of it's own, it's just a mouthpiece for the Spirit of Destiny.

Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Thank you Algernon, I have an other question(and sorry if this has nothing to do with you talking about now): what is exacly the power of the stone of destiny?
And what exacly the spirit of destiny said to Xanatos?

Brian Bartoccini

I should have known. Thanks, Greg.

The Roman Magus created the Grimorum, as I recall. (Correct me if I'm mistaken.) So he must have been the first wizard to have it, the Eye, and the Gate in his possession. I wonder if he knew instinctively that those three artifacts would make his spells so much more powerful, or if he found that out through trial and error. (He couldn't have had prior knowledge of that, as the Archmage and Brother Valmont did, if there was no precedent, could he?)

Not that it really matters, but I had this weird idea that he might have wanted to cast the Humility Spell just on gargoyles within the Roman Empire, not knowing that the three artifacts would make his spell powerful enough to work on every gargoyle on the planet.

It's probably wrong; he probably knew instinctively that his magic had been amplified; but I thought I'd throw it out there nonetheless.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

PAUL> Keep in mind that the Roman Magus had the Eye of Odin, the Phoenix Gate, and the Grimorum when he did it. So, yes, he was THAT powerful.
Greg Bishansky

Good point; I hadn't considered what the shards of stone skin would do to cloth or leather.

I didn't see this question in the archives, so... does the Humility Spell have a "curse escape clause" like most other spells of that caliber, or was the Roman Magus such a powerful wizard that it wasn't necessary?

Also, does the Humility Spell directly affect gargoyles, or does it only affect their possessions? I know that most spells that directly affect a living being have to be seen and heard by said living being, although not seeing or hearing the spell doesn't make one immune to any indirect effects of it. I'm inclined to believe, therefore, that the Humility Spell only affects items on the gargoyles' bodies and in their possession when they go to sleep, and that it does not directly affect the gargoyles themselves.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Algernon> I think the issue is why would gargoyles living outside the Roman empire even bother to start wearing clothes if they didn't know about the Humility Spell.

Paul> They probably don't know what does and doesn't turn to stone with them for the most part. (I'd guess Hudson is unaware of whether his sword turns to stone or not on any given night.) But they would notice the results in the case of clothing. Pre-Humility Spell, their clothes would have been destroyed as soon as they woke up. After the Humility Spell, gargoyle clothing could be worn during the day without being shredded when the gargoyle awakened at night.

Demonskrye - [<---"When The Wind Blows" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

BRIAN> The situation with the DVDs, Comics and film has not changed since you last asked. Believe me, when there is any change we'll be the first to know.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Interesting thing that you're talking about guys; so the gargoyles started to protect castles according with the romans, right?
That is very interesting.
(I do not want to be too annoying to you but could someone of you answer to my first question about the situation of the DVDs and the comic books, please?).

Brian Bartoccini

Do gargoyles even know what happens to their clothes when they turn to stone? Coldstone's memory (or lack thereof) in "Reawakening" suggests that they lose all consciousness when they turn to stone.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

VINNIE> I'm not sure I understand your argument, presumably the Humility Spell affected gargoyles all over the world more or less simultaneously. Clans outside Rome's sphere of influence would probably have no idea why their clothes were suddenly turning to stone with them, unless they had enough knowledge of sorcery to make an educated guess. But either way, lack of knowledge wouldn't prevent the spell from effecting them
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Aren't any of you forgetting how distant Japan is from the Roman Empire? If you follow the logic of distance then Ishimurans have been naked when the met Goliath and company. After 2 thousand years they probably just found out on their own and let's not forget Scotland's Gargoyles weren't whereing much in the way of clothing after a thousand years.
Vinnie - [tpeano20 at hotmail dot com]

Bonne anniversaire, Demonskrye! :D

As for the Humility Spell, I feel like the gargoyles of the world should have felt something as the Roman Magus cast a spell that affected all of them at once. Perhaps they didn't realize what it was at the time, but as time went on with the spell in place and news of its casting spread from Rome, I'm guessing that the clans of the world (or at least of Europe) managed to put two-and-two together until it was common knowledge.

I do wonder whether clans like Xanadu or Pukhan are necessarily aware of it, though. Bit more distance for the news to travel in those cases than it would have been for Scotland.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"That deaf, dumb, and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

Hello guys, it is been a quite long time.
How are you all?
At these days I have school until June, and so I can't in the next days chat with you a lot.
What about the situation of the DVDs and the comic books of the Gargoyles? And that movie will call 'Gargoyles'?
I hope my english it is understandable, goodbye and thank you for the answer.

K7OP

I've always wondered how gargoyles in areas well outside of the Roman empire found out about the humility spell. Presumably if they did wear clothes at all, they would take them off right before sunrise to avoid shredding them when they awoke the following night. So maybe you'd have a gargoyle who forgot or didn't have time to undress before dawn and lo and behold, his or her clothes turned to stone and weren't ruined in the morning. But that's assuming clans outside of the Roman empire even bothered with clothes.

On a completely unrelated note I am now 16 in gargoyle years.

Demonskrye - [<---"When The Wind Blows" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

SUPERMOFF> It's not that implausible for Brook to know about the humility spell. I don't see why Augustus would want to keep it secret. Plus it's not outside the realms of possibility for him to have issued some kind of Imperial proclamation on the matter, a proclamation that was carried to every corner of the Empire.
Algernon

Todd> What I want to know is: how did Brooklyn know that the reason Goliath's pouch turned to stone was because of the Humility Spell? Somehow word must have come from Rome about it and then - what? - they passed it down through teaching and stories? How much about the spell does he know?
Supermorff

Here come the viruses again. *sigh*

Trivia entry: today is the birthday of Caesar Augustus, first Emperor of Rome, and one of those humans who had a major impact on gargoyle history as well as on human history, thanks to his getting the Roman Magus to cast the humility spell over the gargoyle race. Since the humility spell seems to have been a side effect of Augustus' campaign to clean up Roman morals (which had gotten pretty wild by the time he became Emperor), this seems to be yet another case of the truth in Goliath's statement "Human problems become gargoyle problems" (not that the humility spell is a problem - unless you're Brooklyn trying to get the Phoenix Gate out of Goliath's stone pouch in 997 - but it's certainly a case of human problems affecting the gargoyle species).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Girls, if you receive an e-mail from someone calling himself "Fox Boy"... don't open it. Trust me on this.
D. Taina - [<-- DeviantART]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

[SPOILER] Well, now it looks like Magica is teaming up with NegaDuck to cause trouble in DW's life. And if Magica is involved...Well, let's just say I think Scrooge will be appearing in DW#5 as well. [/SPOILER]
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

[SPOILER] Gyro and Magica's presence gives me an extra tingling even greater than Launchpad and the Gizmo-Suit; both go back even farther than "DuckTales" to Carl Barks. That was one thing that I liked about "DuckTales" when it came out - it brought back all those memories of the Disney comics that I'd read years before: Magica de Spell going after Scrooge's No. 1 Dime, the Beagle Boys, Gyro Gearloose - even Gladstone Gander showed up a couple of times, including an episode where Magica exploited his good luck by tricking him into stealing Scrooge's No. 1 Dime. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Sir Griff> Concerning those Ducktales spoilers [SPOILER] do Launchpad and the Gizmosuit/Fenton really count as they are both crossover characters that got significant play in both series? [/SPOILER]

Hudson's name's> I seem to recall that both Goliath and Coldstone called Hudson 'Mentor' or 'My Mentor' at times before Hudson acquired the name Hudson or before Coldstone knew of the new name... So, I think the moniker has been established in the canon already.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

Todd> I just picked up Darkwing Duck #4 and if you liked the Ducktales cameos so far [SPOILER] there are no less than 7 Ducktales cameos in #4. Counting Launchpad, The Gizmosuit, Scrooge, Huey, Dewey, and Louie, Gyro Gearloose, and Magica DeSpell. It rocks! Check it out [/SPOILER]
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

If Greg ends up doing The Dark Ages as a comic, then the name thing becomes pretty easy to get around. Just include an intro page that lists all the casts' out-of-universe names roll call style. The human readers have the convenient labels we so desprately need but no one has to use them in-universe. A lot of superhero team books use something similer.
Algernon

Dark Ages Hudson> Greg has, on a number of occasions, indicated that the most frequent 'designation' given to Hudson while leader of the clan during Dark Ages would be 'Mentor'. Torvik mentioned that Greg said this at a Mug-A-Guest at the 2004 Gathering (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8473), and Greg refers to the younger Hudson from the episode "Vows" as Mentor in his memo for that episode (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=131). Most explicitly, in the Ramble for "Legion" he says that he considered Mentor as Hudson's designation for Dark Ages (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=101).

And before anyone says that this doesn't gel with the Biblical/mythological names for gargs in Dark Ages, I'll point out that we get the word mentor from a character in Greek mythology who was a friend of Odysseus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentor

Supermorff

I wonder if Samson's friends will call him Sam.

Random thought.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

If the name "Samson" is to show improvements in relations, it also shows there's a long way to go (the angelic names of the Avalon clan do this better, but that was only the work of three humans). Samson wasn't exactly the most noble character in the Bible- he was a violent brute who consorted with prostitutes and was stupidly deceived by his wife into betraying himself to his enemies. On the whole, he might be considered a hero, but his actions were still pretty twisted. It always amazes me when people use Samson as a role model for kids, coming as he does from Judges, which Slacktivist described as "an R-rated, Quentin Tarantino version of the Bible."
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

So, yeah... I don't see Prince Malcolm naming any gargoyles after Biblical heroes. Sure, while he got along with the gargoyles and didn't hate them, maybe even liked some of them, he still told stories about them to frighten his daughter into behaving.

Prince Malcolm was a different kind of bigot. He was the guy who has "friends that happen to be black."

Greg Bishansky

Bishansky>"I think Goliath being named after a monstrous, biblical villain in the Dark Ages was intentionally done to depict what humans thought of gargoyles." I've thought this as well.

"Samson being named after a hero in a way represents that things have gotten better (even though bigotry is still very much alive)." I must admit, I hadnt thought of this point of view before. Very cool interpretation.

Lurker

Another reason why the name Samson wouldn't work in the Dark Ages is that Samson was a biblical hero. I think Goliath being named after a monstrous, biblical villain in the Dark Ages was intentionally done to depict what humans thought of gargoyles.

Samson being named after a hero in a way represents that things have gotten better (even though bigotry is still very much alive).

Greg Bishansky

Bishansky> Yeah, we also have a Delilah and a Zafiro. Does that mean Greg should change the names for 2198? I guess we arent smart enough to tell the difference between a Dark Ages or modern times character compared to a 2198 character of the same name.

All joking aside, I wasn't saying the names I gave should be canon, I just meant they are the names I feel are appropriate. This doesnt mean I will be upset if/when the names arent used, I just thought Algernon's query would be entertaining to give my OPINION on.

By the way, I have visited Gargwiki. Every now and then I enjoy spending hours getting lost in the articles. Good stuff there. I also like the Gargoyles entries on Wikiality.

Lurker

LURKER> Pretty sure Hudson won't be a Samson either. We've got a Samson as the planned main character for "Gargoyles: 2198."

Check out GargWiki some time, if you haven't already.

Greg Bishansky

Bishansky> Thanks for that. I must admit the line of royalty was something I never delved into. My dvd's are with a friend and I didnt feel like looking elsewhere.

I understand that "Goliath" is not a title but that is why I likened it to the "Codename: James Bond" theory.

Algernon> I have always thought of Hudson as a Samson. Not quite sure why, it just fits for me.

For Demona, I am inclined to say "Delilah," due to the deceitful nature of both, but I am trying to keep in mind that this is BEFORE she turned evil. The other name that comes to mind is Esther. Given what I have read in The Book Of Esther, this name seems to fit a pre-fall Demona.

The name that strikes me for Iago is Judas, but this is from an audience POV. In story, I would say Saul. This king had strength and power, so I can see Prince Malcolm (Thanks again Greg) calling him Saul. Of course, Saul was jealous of David and even put him in life or death situations many times. This suits Iago perfectly. I suppose one could call Coldstone David for symmetry.

Lurker

Greg> Yes I am aware. I DID mean it in a teasing lighthearted fashion. Personally, I like MOST DA shows, but I do understand that tastes differ and your milage may vary. Personally I will purchase any DA comic (with minor exceptions, such as Quack Pack or Bonkers) just to prove to BOOM! that DA titles are profitable. But again, I DO know that not everyone will do that or feel that way. I really was teasing. I hope Matt and Todd understood that.
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

Sorry for the serial posting but I thought this was an interesting train of thought. Greg is undecided about whether he'd use in-universe names for the Dark Ages cast but if he did he would use the biblical/mythological theme mentioned below. So far we have Goliath of course, and Greg has refered to Hudson's biological daughter as "Hyppolyta". Given all that, what names do you think Prince Malcom would have bestowed on Hudson, Demona and the Coldtrio?

And yes, I know I'm thinking like a total human. From now on I shall refer to the sky as Fred.

Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

CHIP> Just because someone is a fan of "Gargoyles" doesn't mean they're going to be a fan of the other Disney Afternoon shows. Now, I personally think "Darkwing Duck" was awesome, and so is the comic. But I doubt I'll buy "Rescue Rangers."
Greg Bishansky

In my case, it's been a long time since I was last in the neighborhood of Starclipper Comics.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

LURKER> As a matter of fact Goliath seems to have had his name even before becoming leader in 984, since it was known to the time displaced Archmage in Avalon Part 2. In fact, Greg has suggested that Prince Malcom may have named all of the main cast of Gargoyles: The Dark Ages after biblical and mythological characters, though the gargs never used the names among themselves so they didn't stick.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

LURKER> I don't think Hudson was ever called "Goliath." For that matter, I'm not entirely sure if King Kenneth ever met Hudson or Goliath. Well, maybe he met them once during the overthrow of King Cullen...

I think you meant Prince Malcolm, King Kenneth's younger brother. If he did have a name for Hudson, I doubt it was "Goliath." Goliath is a name, not a title.

Greg Bishansky

A bit late to the party on this one but on the subject of Hudson and names.

Was Hudson ever "Goliath?" It was said that only Goliath had a name but one would assume he only received that name after he took leadership of the clan. Since Hudson established the pact, was he given a name by the king, even if he didnt wholly adopt it? For example, the king called him "Goliath" so he went with it only in his company. Then when Goliath took was given leadership, he was more accepting of it. I always wondered if "Goliath" would have been the handle passed onto the leaders, like the James Bond theory.

Lurker

Fire can be used in hunting to trap or flush out game. Fire can keep pests, predators, and rivals away. Fire can be used to purify water and cook food to avoid disease. Fire can be used to make tools. There's plenty of reasons to want fire even if you're not cold.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Chip> Well, money is tight these days. And I know the comics are not all that expensive, but to be honest I was never a huge DW fan. Like I said, I loved Scrooge and Donald comics and Ducktales was largely a televised version of those comics and it was alright, but Darkwing always seemed a bit too cartooney for me. Getting flattened by anvils and the like. Maybe the comics have grown up the series a bit as the Gargoyles comics did, I don't know. Again, I think it is awesome that Gyro and Magica are getting some play in the series. I've heard lots of good things about DW, so I may read it down the road, we'll see.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

So of the hard core gargoyles fans in the St. Louis area, I'm the only one who has been getting the DW comics? For shame Todd and Matt. Support the Disney Afternoon Boom Comics. (I'm just teasing, but I was surprised that I was the only one picking it up. If either of you want to read em' I can loan you my copies, since we're relatively close.)
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

Darkwing Duck> I have not been following the comics either, but in my youth I was a huge Uncle Scrooge/Donald Duck comics fan and I'm thrilled that Gyro and Magica are getting cameos in the DW comic.

Gargoyles & Fire> I suppose that for a species as old as gargoyles, the manipulation and creation of fire would be useful in a way that tools and weapons might not be. Gargoyles can still get cold and their eyes only provide light in certain circumstances. Certainly gargoyles living in high mountains, cliffs and caves would find fire very useful. And they are certainly smart enough to create and use it.
I suppose what got me thinking along these lines is that when Hudson, Goliath and Demona went into the Archmage's Cave, they created and took a torch in with them. There were no humans with them. And we know from the rookery that gargoyles naturally use caves. So I just put two and two together.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

Patrick> I'd say that a higher intelligence can be a liability in a survival situation, but that isn't always the case. Higher intelligence can help an individual identify and avoid potential danger that might not be evident to a smaller-brained creature.

Matt> Why do you think gargoyles learned to use fire? I'm not doubting your logic - whatever it is - but two of the big benefits of fire to primitive man were light and warmth, two things that gargoyles don't really require. So what do you think drove them to learn to make and utilize fire?

Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

ALGERNON - Whoa, you're right! Now that would really make a great confrontation. (Poor DW, though.)

(I've long suspected, incidentally, that the "Morgana" part of "Morgana Macabre" was an allusion to Morgan le Fay - it's all the more fitting, since Morgana Macabre is not only a sorceress, but an ambivalent one; at times up to super-villainous schemes, but also Darkwing's love interest-of-a-sort and periodic ally.)

Todd Jensen

TODD> If you liked that, you'll love this...

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3692200&postcount=249

Algernon

Saw a preview of "Darkwing Duck" #4 at Comics Continuum yesterday. (I haven't been getting the book - I don't visit comic book stores often enough for that - but I've been following the discussion about it.) One pleasant surprise in the preview pages was [SPOILER] a cameo from Gyro Gearloose - which, given that "Darkwing Duck" exists in the same universe as "Duck Tales", does make sense, but which I still hadn't expected [/SPOILER].
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Algeron > Actually, higher intelligence is a liability in a survival situation. Instinct would save many people from death and injury in situations where constructs of higher intelligence such as courage, duty, honor, overrule the natural instinct to flee from mortal danger. The most primitive reptile part of our brains would never send us charging towards the bullets or running into a burning building.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Algernon> If that were true, every animal group would develop a brain as complex (or moreso) than humans have. Higher intelligence is great, and it is true that animals with higher intelligence would have a great chance of survival, but one must remember the costs. Higher intelligence means bigger, more sophisticated brains. And bigger, more sophisticated brains means the brain takes a lot more energy to keep it running. I think humans take for granted how much of our energy intake goes into keeping the brain running. The average human brain only comprises 2% of their body weight, but uses 20% of their energy. That is a lot. And the shear size of our brains has led to other costs. There is a good reason human women have such painful childbirth and our newborns are so undeveloped. In the history of evolution, there are few instances of animals going anywhere near as far as humans have in terms of brainpower. For many species, a brain like ours would be a liability. Our species took the evolutionary risk, and so far it has panned out well for us.

And apparently in the GU, it worked out for gargoyles too. Perhaps it was the strategy involved with hunting that led to the evolution of powerful brains in gargates. Or, given how intensely social they are, it was the need to process and remember complex relationships that pushed the higher intelligence. It is hard to speculate. It could've been tools also. Though gargoyles had little need for weapons and didn't develop agriculture, I suspect they had learned to create and manipulate fire long before humans. This would lead to some tool use, though nothing as complex as humans later accomplished. So, yeah, I dunno.

And I also don't like the psychic abilities idea. For gargoyles, I don't see the need, the plausibility or the desire for them to have had this ability, even mildly.

Then again, Greg might be going this direction. Una and Obsidiana have both seemingly been sensitive to such things in canon and CiT works...

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

DEMONSKRYE> I would imagine higher intelligence to be an advantage in just about any survival situation.
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

I'm still not sure how I feel about the idea that primitive gargoyles had mild psychic abilities. Greg notes in that particular ramble that he's just thinking out loud, so I regard the idea as somewhere below canon-in-training, something that hasn't even been put forth as something that probably will turn out to be true, but is subject to change.

I'm not crazy about the idea of even early gargoyles possessing another trait not proven to exist in nature. They've already got turning into organic stone during the day. Mild psychic abilities might be stretching credulity a bit. Additionally, I think the idea that gargoyles never developed a complex language of their own could be fascinating. I mentioned a few weeks back - and got no response to it - a radio program I heard about a woman who temporarily lost the ability to think verbally. She talked about how during that time, she felt like she was experiencing the world around her in a more direct way because she wasn't able to label everything. Rather than looking at a sunrise and think "Oh, the sun's coming up," she was just taking in the information about the sunset her senses were receiving. I imagine early gargoyles saw the world in a similar way. I tend to think that they did have a very simple gestural language to convey basic information. And they were probably very attuned to both the world around them and each other, so they could tell when someone in their clan was, happy, sad, tired, hungry, nervous, or what have you through subtle cues.

On the other hand, mild psychic ability would answer the question of what exactly gargoyles were doing with those big brains. If larger brains were a mutation that the species kept, then they must have been of some use. The basic idea of evolution is if you have a big-brained caveman named Smartypants and a pea-brained caveman named Durr, and Smartypants spends his time making tools and finding a good dry cave to live in while Durr picks his nose and pulls on sabertooth tiger tails, Smartypants is going to live longer and produce a lot more offspring than Durr and pass down his larger brain to them. We're told that gargoyles are comparable to human in brain size and intelligence. But gargoyles, so far as we know, didn't build tools, construct shelters, sculpt, paint, develop complex language, or do anything that humans did with their larger brains. So what was it about higher intelligence that made the primitive gargoyle more able to survive, more attractive to the opposite sex, or otherwise more successful?

Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

I was going to say I agreed with Algernon--that you could substitute "The River" for "that particular river over there that I am currently referring to". Proper names like "Hudson" are different from nouns like "river" in the English language.

But Supermorff's link pretty much answers the question. If language is just sophisticated naming, then that explains why the clan members were so quick to give themselves names and why Hudson didn't need much of a reason himself. They had already adapted language to suppress their primitive psychic instincts. Their preference to avoid names was just a vestigial extension of that and could be readily excised.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

ICE> Greg Weisman made a very similar comment halfway through this ramble: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=387
Supermorff

ICE> "The sky" and "the river" aren't really proper names though, they're just convieneant terms of reference like "the couch" or "my dog" or "that creepy guy in the trench coat who's always hanging around the liquor store".
Algernon

Names> I agree with Matt that Hudson's rationale is probably based i part on the fact that 10th century gargoyles coud live their entire lives without seeing more than one river. Greg Weisman has also said that gargoyles never had their own verbal language, an idea which also seem to rely on gargoyles never being too far away from anything they wanted to draw attention to. (Unless gargoyles had a complex gestural language that would have allowed them to refer to gargoyles and objects not present at the time.)

I don't think Hudson necessarily has first hand experience living without a spoken language; "Once Upon a Time There were Three Brothers" seems to indicate that the Wyvern Clan gargoyles were talking before they were allied with Prince Malcolm. So I think what Hudson is complaining about is less the human tendency to label things at all and more what he sees as overlabeling. Why does every river, every stream, every patch of land that seems the slightest bit different or not at all different from the land around it need to be named and defined and limited?

Of course, Hudson ends up losing the argument, even though Elisa's defense of naming is extremely weak. This is one aspect of gargoyle culture that couldn't survive in modern times, where the world is a smaller place and gargoyles need to talk about things beyond what is right in front of them.

I recall reading a piece by (I think) John Muir which could be summed up as "You don't have to name every little stone and twig you come across; just appreciate it for what it is." I hope Robbins introduces Hudson to that particular passage some day.

Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

Ice> You are right. Hudson does call the river "The River" and the sky "The Sky". You must remember though that gargoyles are very territorial and (esspecially in Hudson's time) were not prone to travel much. The river in their world didn't need a name, there was only one river. At least that is one theory. The fact is that this is just a cultural difference with gargoyles. Hudson didn't think he needed a name because there is only one of him. For humans, a name is still required.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

I mentioned last week the question of "What's stopping the antagonist from using the same scheme - or almost the same scheme - in a later episode?", with the Stone of Destiny story in the "Gargoyles" comics as a good example of solving that question.

Then I realized that the infamous "To Serve Mankind" episode in "The Goliath Chronicles" is an equally good example of the question not being solved. For what's to stop the Illuminati from trying to assassinate E--n P-x again - and this time using a human operative rather than a gargoyle (which, as I've mentioned before, would have been a much better plan)?

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano20 at hotmail dot com]

A perfect 10!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

9th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

8th~!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> Meh...

Seven!
mage_cat - [mage_cat14 at yahoo dot com]

"You are Number Six."

"I am not a number! I am a free man!"

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

The sun shines in as the Age of Aquarius crosses over into the Fifth Dimension!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"That deaf, dumb, and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

I know it's named the Hudson, but he didn't know that> He called it the River, like the river was a name for it. He was just complaining about why things need names though, so it confused me.
Ice - [lcetyrant at hotmail dot com]

Fourth!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

ICE> The river is named the Hudson.
Greg Bishansky

I have a question to ask. I was watching the pilot of Gargoyles just now, and Hudson says "Does the sky need a name? The river?"

What I'm thinking, is that "The Sky" and "The River" are names for the sky and river. That line has bugged me for awhile.

Ice - [lcetyrant at hotmail dot com]

FIRST time being FIRST!
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.