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Gargoyles

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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending May 27, 2012

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ANONYMOUS> [SPOILER] I think it was mainly just a red herring. All throughout the episode, both Jamie and the audience are led to believe that Maurice had something to do with Tai's disappearance. I'm sure Jamie probably was expecting to find Tai's dismembered corpse in that shed. But no the twist is that Maurice really did have nothing to do with it and Tai is now a prisoner of the Light. For the story to work Maurice has to be hiding something in that shed and pirate dvds work as well as anything else. [/SPOILER]
Algernon

Blather> There may be a connection to the post before it about the new YJ ep because both reference "giant invisible flying monkey brains". Although it may just be a coincidence.
Myhne

Did anyone feel like the end of Beneath [SPOILER] where blue finds the pirated material that will get Maurice arrested [/SPOILER] seemed unnatural to the rest of the story and acted as a deus ex machina?

The addition of that scene seemed unnatural to the plot of the episode [SPOILER] which I believed was trying to focus on domestic abuse issues. And the resolution was not solved by addressing Maurice's crimes of violence, but rather by exposing his crimes of piracy, which were never addressed earlier, but haphazardly revealed at the end [/SPOILER].

I'm wondering if this was something suggested/forcefully added by the higher ups to demote [SPOILER] piracy [/SPOILER] by associating it with the crime of [SPOILER] wife beating [/SPOILER]. I can understand why Warner Bros is against piracy, but they don't need to change the episode for their own purposes. The two are crimes, but Warner Bros shouldn't subliminally/liminally (depending on how you see it) attack [SPOILER] piracy [/SPOILER] within the episode if it doesn't fit with the theme of the episode.

I do know this sounds very paranoid and conspiratorial, but its the only way I can make sense of the ending of the episode. I think Greg would have made a more on topic conclusion to the episode.

Also, if this was something that Greg did not want to add to the episode, it could possibly explain the weird blather he said earlier.

Anonymous
Anonymus

Matt> I'm pretty sure it's the same, down to the spelling error, but I don't know about secret messages: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=328
Supermorff

Blather> I can't help but suspect that there is something Greg wants us to know, but doesn't want to tell us outright encoded in the Blather. Why else would he post an exact copy of the document from six years ago? It is an exact copy, right? It didn't occur to me to check.

Even if we don't figure it out, it gives me some satisfaction to know that a lot of Young Justice fans will be scratching their heads assuming it must be about that show.

Maybe it is...?

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"It's almost as if he is trying to keep us offguard while something else is happening." - Goliath, "The Price"

Re: Blather> I missed this the first time around, but what was the epiphany regarding Lego?
Supermorff

Kinda sad that tonight's Blather was the same from six years ago (the minute I saw "It's that time again: Blather." I was hoping for a sequel of sorts) -- still, now I'm crazy curious where the giant invisible flying monkey brains will show up in tomorrow's YJ ep d:
Phoenician - [onephoenician at gmail dot com]
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

I think so too. The DVD's already out are uncut. On that note, dropping this off here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRmVeZYXNr8

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

Greg B,

I agree with you about the after the fact censoring where Gargoyles is concerned. My point was that from the *studio's* perspective an uncut DVD is 'safer' for them than an uncut tv airing. So if we do get Gargoyles on home release, I think it's likely it will be the original versions of the episodes.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Honestly, at the end of the day, when it comes to content... it's the parent's responsibility, not the studio. Each kid is different, each parent is different.

I don't think "Deadly Force" should be censored because one parent found the content offensive. Just change the channel.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

Generally DVD releases are better about that kind of thing (with the exception of music rights situations). I think part of it is because a customer has to actively purchase them. So if someone complains about the content, the studo can turn around and say "Well you bought it for your kid and let them see it without watching it yourself to gauge it's apropriateness. That's on you."
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

I just hope when they finally release everything on DVD, we get the episodes without edits as they originally aired.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Anthony Tini: Re censoring: I agree. Astral-the company that owns DisneyXD Canada is the same company that owns Family Channel Canada. Between October 1999 and August of 2001-Family Channel Canada not only aired Gargoyles without commercials-but unedited! So for them to air them edited now is hypocritical. They say they're limited to airing what Disney sends them-but back then, it was Toon Disney that was airing edited episodes while we were getting unedited ones. Maybe because they've now attached the Disney name to the end of the program and killed of the Buena Vista credit that was originally there-who knows their warped reasoning.
Wingless

@bookworm I'm assuming the moderators are answering what they can and leaving questions for Greg when he gets to them.
Anthony Tini

Wonder why a bunch of unanswerd questions got jumped over?
bookworm

I support that Disney or any company has the right to censor what they want and don't want, but if something was NOT censored back in 1994, in my opinion, it should NOT be censored now. You would think there should be some sort of "grandfathering" thing with censorship, but it appears not which is a shame since it throws off pacing of the source material. Oh well. Even more reason for people to buy the DVDs!
Anthony Tini

Re: Handgun edits - Because there's NO chance any kid's going to flip the channel off Disney to TBS or USA or any of the other twenty channels that run Law & Order or CSI in endless rotation. :P
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Here's a bit of news related to Walt Disney Home Entertainment, Fox & other studios doing a deal with Amazon's Creative Space manufacture on demand for a "Never Before on DVD" project: No TV shows planned right away-but as it says in the article, this is a foot in the door. Click my name for details.
Wingless

I don't see Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 and Gargoyles Season 3 all on DVD announced at Station 8 by Disney yet?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

I tend to consider myself a mild spoiler hunter. Generally speaking I don't want blow by blow descriptions of exactly what's going to happen. I like tidbits. Press releases with a two-sentence episode synopsis, upcoming guest stars and episode titles. Because then it becomes like a puzzle:

If X is supposed to happen next week then what does that mean for *couple* and is *character* planning Y like it was foreshadowed they would, and how will Z affect the overall seasonal arc?

And especially if you're involved in an online community it can be fun to spin theories and try to analyze all the little hints and psyche yourself up for the next episodes.

On the other hand if a show you've formerly liked is somewhat going down hill, or maybe some elements are really strong while others are downright awful, spoilers can also be a good way to mitigate disappointment or cushion a blow.

I remember as Buffy Season 6 was airing I was heavily spoiled for [SPOILER] Seeing Red [/SPOILER] and I was glad because I hated both [SPOILER] the bathroom scene and Tara's death [/SPOILER] with a vengeance. And going in blind would have sucked.

On the other hand for the Season 5 finale there were contradicting and mostly inaccurate spoilers floating around and I'm happy I ended up *not* knowing what was going to happen for that episode.

Basically spoil yourself at your own risk and judge whether it's going to increase or decrease your enjoyment of the story.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

I probably am a bit of a spoiler hunter. A lot of times it's by accident. Like for example a few years back my big show was Death Note. I tried to find the coolest wallpapers for it and eveyrthing. In my search I would come upon many spoilers by accident, many huge mega spoilers too, it was kind of a bummer. I try to exercise some restraint anymore though. For the most part I am somewhat successful. But then again I am also very not sometimes too, such as with FMA Brotherhood. I was recently real into that one and I spoiled aome parts of that show so bad that I ended up knowing nearly exact lines some characters would say after certain situatioins in what not. I blame it on everything having a wikia now >_>

lol. One reason I am thankful to watch shows as they air such as Young Justice and Korra. I can't spoil those for myself. Well I think I could actually spoil Young Justice for myself since apparently it airs earlier in other countries...

Oh, and did anybody else have a big smile when after everybody gave their talk to Red Arrow, Red said "I'm whelmed."? I started out hating how Robin did that with words, but now I love it.

Ice

I don't like being spoiled either but I'd be a liar if I said that I didn't type "Partner Kevin Grevioux" into Google hoping for just a little bit more info. ;)
Anthony Tini

Me, I don't hate spoilers. If we get them we get them. But I never go out hunting for them. That's the way it should be. Too bad children can't be satisfied with the snippets they are given.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Obama eats DOG!

J29> Using a recent example from Greg Weisman....
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=14802

So in that he states that the network gives them a particular time. And reading further from that, if the episode is preped before the time frame is actually given, then it gets trimmed down accordingly for airing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the DVDs have the original cuts (just like iTunes did) which is how thoe might come out to an exact equal length while on air they don't?
Anyway, just lots of conjecture and reading in to things... but that's my take on it based on Greg W's response.


So I'd say that the

Some Geek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons

Thanks for the info Spen! So for Gargoyles any edits are definitely for content and not time.
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

J29: On the DVD's at least, the episodes all came out to the same time.
Spen

> Masterdramon

That gave me a good laugh. Actually I kinda understand spoiler hunting, or at least in regards to this one lady I knew. Her husband was real into Survivor way way back in the day, like in 2000 or something. He died before the show ended though, so she has been kinda quick to get the spoilers after that, since I suppose she wouldn't have wanted to die never knowing what happened at, say, the end of Death Note, for example. (Or that's the one I remember anyway, because she kept spoiling details from that show on a forum I posted at, and people complaining to her about it got her to reveal the part about her husband dying.)

Ice

I don't know specifically about Gargoyles, or animation in general, but I know that every episode of a show is not necessarily the exact same length. There likely has to be an established maximum, because they'll have a set amount of time given to the advertisers, but I could see some leeway if one episode is a little shorter than another.

Maybe instructions would be something like "It can't be longer than 22 minutes, or shorter than 20." For a half-hour show.

That's all just my conjecture though.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Patrick: re edits due to commercials-the problem now is that not all the episodes have edits, so that theory doesn't fit quite right-unless some episodes were longer than others.
Wingless

For anyone here who's a fan of "The Legend of Korra" and not such a fan of the amount of spoiler requests that have littered the queue in recent years, I think you'll get a kick out of this. I know I did.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m41n0muX841rptk5lo1_1280.jpg

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"How does it feel, to be on your own...with no direction home...a complete unknown...like a rolling stone?" - Bob Dylan

Yep, Brainiac. I guess from an S&P perspective the nightmare is that *one* kid does something stupid and it gets out that they may have gotten the idea from one particular show or movie.

Le sigh.

Fun example. A Sailor Moon episode had the title heroine (in civilian garb) and her love interest Tuxedo Mask end up falling from a balcony but are then able to float down using an umbrella sort of Mary Poppins style. So when the English version came out that was NOT gonna fly. They reversed the footage her falling and Tuxedo Mask trying to hold onto her hand so it looks like he pulled her up, dubbed in a line about her meeting him downstairs, reused a shot from her on the stairwell from earlier in the episode, and then went to her on the ground floor fighting the baddie.

http://www.smuncensored.com/comparison.php?episodeid=22

All that and then in a later episode a quick freeze-frame flashback of the scene in question is shown.

Oh, censorship.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

J29> Imitability or actual knowledge on the usage of a gun. After all, children always immediately go and do anything they've been shown how to, don't they? </sarcasm>
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

I'd guess it has something to do with imitability, maybe?
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Brainiac: Also, every close-up of a trigger being pulled has been censored in the US. It's been so long since these episodes aired uncensored that it's easy to forget those split-second scenes were ever there. When Thailog starts pulling the trigger in The Reckoning, that's gone. When Vinnie starts pulling the trigger on a friggin' PIE GUN, that's gone, too. They accomplished this by removing the scene and slowing down the one that comes after it. Angela flinches longer, and Goliath takes longer to land in front of the crosshair. There are other examples but those are the two that I can remember right now.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..."

In "Long Way to Morning" Elisa's gun discharges when she's hit by the dart Demona blew at her.
Richard Jackson

J29> What's interesting is it's contextual. Elisa is allowed to be shown pulling her gun on people, including Goliath (Sentinel) and Oberon (Ill Met By Moonlight). She's even allowed to pull the trigger...as long as it doesn't work. What she's NOT allowed to do is demonstrate the chamber release or actually threaten someone verbally with being shot.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

It sounds like references to realistic gun violance spooked somone. And again probably due to events that happened after Gargoyles finished airing. Columbine being the big one.

In fact Columbine affected Buffy while it was in production. The episodes "Earshot" and the season finale "Graduation Day Part II" from Season 3 had their airings postponed for content reasons. And I'm betting they didn't rerun "I Only Have Eyes For You" for a while as well.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Matt> I believe the "Ill Met By Moonlight" cut isn't about the words, it's about the visuals. I think they weren't comfortable showing Elisa opening her gun's clip.

Most of the remaining cuts in those episodes not yet on DVD are for visuals rather than words. In Golem, they dumped the unopposed racial violence in the flashback. They also removed the Golem tossing Angela around; couple that with Hyena getting tossed and hitting her head in The Green and it appears they will not show violence against women. For The Gathering Part II, an iron harpoon to the chest was a step too far while in Turf, the actual shooting of cars and leaving obvious bullet holes was the breaking point.

The cuts in Sentinel and The Reckoning are for words. The former is "Not another step...or I'll shoot you where you stand." The latter is, of course, "Kinky."

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Some of the cuts have no point other than to add time for more commercials. The standard ratio of episode time to commercial time has decreased since the early 90s.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

The cut in "Ill Met..." is especially stupid. Why exactly is it a problem to inform viewers what silver bullets can and cannot kill? Sounds like someone doing the censoring has something to hide, if you ask me.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Growing old terrifies you, doesn't it?" - Hudson, "The Price"

They didn't censor out "terrorist" in "City of Stone" until after 9/11. Guess they decided kids couldn't handle a word they were only hearing 100 times a day on every other channel. Not only does that edit make the dialog sound silly, it ruins the pacing of the lines, too.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

J29: oh, there are tons of edits in the Broadcast versions of Gargoyles...In no particular Order:
"Long Way To Morning": Hudson builds & Lights a torch-they cut that scene entirely-and just show him holding it(senseless).
"Ill Met By Moonlight" When Tom is creating the bell in the forge, Elisa mentions how Oberon backed away from her gun-and how she's been out of bullets for weeks-and that she'd likely need silver ones-this whole bit of dialogue is cut, but the princess's answer to her is left in-which makes the scene make no sense.
"The Golem" Part of the background scene of why the Golem is needed-some of the violence is cut. Also, Renard in the Golem body throws Angela up against a wall, and she hit's it hard- You hear the sound but you don't see her hit.
"The Green" Similar to the Golem. Lex and Broadway tag team and throw Hyena up against a wall-she hits hard, and falls flat(also cut).
"The Gathering: Pt 2" - When Xanatos' Father shoots Oberon with the spear gun. You see him with the spear in his chest, but you no longer see it hit!
"Leader Of The Pack" - The cut when Goliath kicks off the head of the Xanatos robot - also removed is when the head blasts off from the deck of the oil tanker. Strange-since that is left in one of the "Previously on" segments.
*Upgrade* Brooklyn & Jackal are battling. Jackal uses his upgraded hand as a blade(for the second time) this time it gets stuck and while he tries to pull it out, Brooklyn whacks him with a railroad tie - leaving his mechanical arm dangling there. The scene with the arm hanging there is cut.

Okay. I could be writing here all night, but that's a handful I remember. Anyone else care to add a few?

Wingless

*Demona
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Oh that's right! Funnily enough I actually just watched City of Stone (easily my favorite set of episodes) with a friend and voiced the thought that if the show had been made post-9/11 there was no way S&P would have allowed that word to be used.

The term is accurate and truthful to what the woman and Demona are and I'd argue its use is appropriate and cesnoring it only gives it power it doesn't deserve. "Fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself." But I couldn't see it not getting a note in red pen from S&P or the execs.

A couple other thoughts on City of Stone:

Macbeth=<3 and I feel so bad for the guy. The scene where he told Gruoch he didn't love her rubbed me the wrong way though. Dude, be honest and let her make her own decisions. Which isn't to say that the protective/slightly sexist line of thinking was unorganic to the time and place or even the character. But not his finest moment.

And how much would it suck to be that one woman Demoma shot and wake up from a blackout without *arms*? *shudder*

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

J29> The other instance I can think of off the top of my head was the removal of the word 'terrorist' from City of Stone, which made an early scene with the Weird Sisters quite confusing.
Supermorff

I set the DVR to record Gargoyles every morning but I rarely watch it anymore. Though I have most of it on DVD anyhow too. If Disney did start censoring it I most likely never noticed.
Ice

Chris, all you had to do was ask.

*HUGS*

Best of luck getting into the swing of things at the new job!

For US censorship of Gargoyles the only one I remember hearing about about was editing some shots out of "Deadly Force." IIRC it was the full body shot of Elisa lying on the floor with the pool of blood that was the biggest issue.

I understand the reasoning behind the editing decision (OMG the blooood, will no one think of the children?) even though I disagree with it. Given the message of the episode, IMO the original shot was warranted.

J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."

Wingless> I do watch them, and I thank you for your trouble in getting them in the correct order! :)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

@Wingless To answer your question I went to tvguide.com and here's the US schedule that they have listed:

Gargoyles - The Mirror Mon,May 21 4:00am
Gargoyles - The Silver Falcon Tue,May 22 4:00am
Gargoyles - Eye of the Beholder Wed,May 23 4:00am
Gargoyles - Vows Thu,May 24 4:00am
Gargoyles - City of Stone Fri,May 25 4:00am
Gargoyles - City of Stone Sat,May 26 4:00am
Gargoyles - City of Stone Sun,May 27 4:00am
Gargoyles - City of Stone Mon,May 28 4:00am

So everything appears to be in order, but I don't think it was ever out of order here in the states. I do recall they have censored things. If you want me to do more research let me know which episode you'd like me to record and I can report back once it airs. (Good week of episodes if I don't say so myself!)

* * *

To all the Canada's in the room, Happy Victoria Day! I look forward to celebrating US's Memorial Day this coming weekend with some good friends and some BBQ.

Anthony Tini

Wingless> The US version of DisneyXD continues to broadcast the censored versions of Gargoyles episodes in the correct scripted order rather than original broadcast order. The channel has also recently expanded the program to every day of the week (though still at 4 AM).

I must say, I was pleasantly surprised to see that the Comment Room properly rendered the grave accent mark in my French contribution to the starting count. Diacritical marks often tend to give it fits.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

X.
Spen

Ninth? I don't even know how this game is played. oh no

If J29 shows up again, uh, I could definitely use that hug ASAP. Third week of my new job started today, still finding it rough to get back in the swing of things.

Chris Adams - [mhacdebhandia@yahoo.com]

Eight in the name of starting a new internship today!

...Still not paid, but eh. That's how the cookie crumbles in this biz.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"How does it feel, to be on your own...with no direction home...a complete unknown...like a rolling stone?" - Bob Dylan

Seven
Supermorff

VI:
I thought some of you'd like to know that DisneyXD Canada appears to be keeping their word. Although they're not going to be airing uncensored episodes, they do appear to be running the season 2 episodes in the correct order (At least during the Tuesday through Saturday at 4AM airings). The weekend 2AM and 4AM Airings are running at a different pace from the weekday ones. You'd think the 4AM eps would at least all be part of the same sequence-but hey, beggars can't be choosy.

How about DisneyXD in the US? What's happening there(or does anyone care?)

Wingless

Fiver!
Chip
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado

(4)FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Obama eats DOG!

Troisième!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

SECOND! :D
Anthony Tini

FIRST! :D
Phoenician - [onephoenician at gmail dot com]
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka