Oh, no, I definitely don't think the Illuminati want to wipe out the gargoyles. I was just saying that the way they were presented in issue 3 of the SLG comic could make it seem like that was their plan to a new reader.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 11:47:21 pm EDT from 98.60.149.57

I think the advantage that the Illuminati have is that the highest echelon has been aware of the gargoyles for...well, for almost two centuries before even Hudson was born. Peredur and/or Duval have observed all the changes in the world, the status of the gargoyles, etc., over multiple millennia, and have been able to plan accordingly all along the way. They've been playing a much longer game than Xanatos or anyone else is capable of, by sheer nature of their staying power, and their ability to build infrastructure over time and have a sense of the broader picture. It's going to be interesting seeing how that type of advantage competes with Xanatos's sheer intellect.

And I certainly don't think they want to kill the gargoyles off, Todd. Whatever they're up to is a lot more pragmatic.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 9:16:29 pm EDT from 63.143.202.166

And I'm sceptical about the Illuminati wanting to wipe out the gargoyles; you can't do much with dead gargoyles, and I suspect that the Illuminati would regard killing them as wasteful. Disposing of them if the gargoyles were starting to become a serious impediment to their goals and there was no other way to stop them from interfering, yes, but the Illuminati strike me as the kind of antagonists who'd rather control than destroy.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 8:57:11 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

"Since you mentioned the Illuminati, they're inevitably going to be the ones pulling the strings for this whole puppet show, and it will go however they want it to. We may not see or hear about them in this storyline, and we don't know enough about their motivations to guess how they'll play it, but we can rest assured that they're calling the plays."

I don't really agree with this. They may be involved, but you can't assume it will all go exactly according to their plans. I think Greg has warned people about not overestimating how much control the Illuminati have. They are definitely pulling strings, but they can't be everywhere at once. And as you say, I don't think Xanatos and Thailog are going to follow strict marching orders. At one point, I thought X was a low rank largely because he didn't want to give up control of his own life for sake of advancing in a hierarchy, though we now know that he just hasn't been in the Society for very long.

All that said, like Xanatos I assume the Illuminati have a lot of back-up plans and are prepared to turn unexpected events in their favor. The brilliant thing about their creating the Quarreymen is that something like them was an all but inevitable response to humans finding out another sentient species exists. This way they can at least maintain some influence over the hate group as well as over more ambiguous figures like Xanatos and the NYPD via Matt. I remember way back when issue 3 came out, we speculated that a new reader might see Hacker tell Matt "we'll help with the cover-up," Xanatos "we'll help with the reveal," and Castaway "we'll help destroy them" and, through the dramatic rule of three, assume the latter statement represented their true intentions. But we know it's surely deeper than that.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 8:46:21 pm EDT from 98.60.149.57

Ed > Interesting. You may be right, and that would be a cool approach that hadn't really occurred to me before. That being said, my feeling was that the extreme higher-ups (Peredur, Duval, Fleur) have an agenda toward the gargoyles that people like Quincy snd Shari (and even seemingly the lower-tier Hacker) are probably in on, at least to some extent, but the extreme bottom-tier members like Xanatos, Thailog, Matt, Castaway, etc. are more like pawns in the Illuminati's chess game. I've always imagined that at some point way down the line they'll underestimate how much they can manipulate Xanatos and/or Thailog and it will blow up. For now, I think Xanatos and Thailog both realize that they're being used, but it's convenient for them to play the game and bide their time.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 5:51:49 pm EDT from 63.143.203.129

Alex: Nice one! Great to revisit issue #1. I definitely think the exposition in #1 will play a lot better when it's read back as a 12-issue arc and you can already kind of see that IMO. I'm also optimistic for Tony but then I always thought he was interesting.

Craig: I feel like "Invitation Only" set up that the Illuminati are really covering all bases. I'm not sure if they're necessarily that invested in any specific outcome. I mean, given the diversity of their make-up just based on the people we already know, it doesn't seem to me they'd have a corporate position on almost anything.

Matt: Glad it's not just me!
Ed
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 5:37:11 pm EDT from 31.94.25.103

Oh, I should provide a link to it I guess. So there it is. Where ever... links go. I think my name?

I'm super looking forward to whatever Halcyon has got going on. His friendship with Goliath was one of my favourite aspects of the original series. I think Dino has also kinda grown on me, I really loved what Greg did with Silvermane in the Spectacular Spider-man and Dino just seems like a similar archetype.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 4:50:16 pm EDT from 70.27.162.19

"Terminus" and "Into the Breach" first time seeing this kind of threw me off, the end of the first episode implied that the Anti-Life Equation was being spread across the universe and I didn't quite realize that the events of "Into the Breach" were happening simultaneously with that of the first episode.

I liked the point Karrin made when I reviewed this episode, that the goddess of oppression and abuse was defeated by a black teen and a gender queer character with rainbow powers. It's too appropriate to be coincidental.

Yeah, Darkseid has always been the "I have people for that" kind of villain. One of those characters where the heroes have to take down the underlings first before they get his attention.

The two remaining episodes aren't a two-parter, so I would suggest reviewing them individually.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 4:46:03 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew> Oh yeah. So while I knew it likely wasn't her as The Owl House had more particular VAs, did you find The Collector (Fryda Wolff) to sound like a Kath Soucie character at all?
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 4:31:38 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Nothing much to add except to say that I'm loving this conversation about what is going on in the comics right now. And I love the speculation about issues 5-12. I, for one, have never thought the theft of Egwardo was off the table. I agree there is a lot of hints that we are building to it.
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 4:01:33 pm EDT from 24.107.111.141

I finally recorded and released my review/dramatic reading of Gargoyles #1 for my new Podcast series "As Queer as a Painting"!

It should be up on Spotify & Amazon Music.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 3:51:51 pm EDT from 70.27.162.19

Ed > I certainly doubt we'll see any real life figures who are currently living, or even who have lived in the past century or so. Disney is pretty cautious about that type of thing, and I don't think Greg has any particular interest in that anyway (other than a rare example like Douglas Bader, with whom he had a personal connection). But I also don't think we'll be seeing fictional characters as President of the U.S., as you do in the Marvel movies. Gargoyles has always strived for historical accuracy, so I think we'll just get references to "the President" (as we saw in the SLG comics) or "the D.A." with the assumption that the historically appropriate people are filling those offices. As you say, there are enough go-betweens that it's easy to avoid seeing the actual folks or mentioning them by name.

Since you mentioned the Illuminati, they're inevitably going to be the ones pulling the strings for this whole puppet show, and it will go however they want it to. We may not see or hear about them in this storyline, and we don't know enough about their motivations to guess how they'll play it, but we can rest assured that they're calling the plays. Renard might be the only power player here who's beyond their influence, as far as we know, which makes him very interesting.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 3:18:27 pm EDT from 63.143.199.212

Todd: A memorable name for a town attracting hunters!

Craig: There's a British town, Hartlepool, famous for having once hanged a monkey. I'm not sure that the great and good of New York are going to want to risk humiliating analogies like this when it comes to their handling of their management of a newly-discovered endangered species.

It'll be interesting to see what balance Greg strikes between real-life individuals and original characters. Although using real-life people for the president and others has the advantage of keeping the world feeling grounded and realistic (and to some degree it probably helps that the narrative is set a quarter-century ago as events can't derail the narrative), I expect there's a lot more latitude with original characters. I guess this is where the Illuminati are narratively helpful - you don't need to show scenes with Clinton and Bush if you have Quincy Hemings influencing proceedings. Presumably Hacker speaks for the FBI as well.

Regarding Robyn, I don't have my copy of "Redemption" to hand (roll on the rerelease with hopefully a digital edition!) but I recall Christopher Jones did a brilliant flashback image of Robyn firing on the Clock Tower in the issue where they return to New York despite her being a fugitive. That's not proof positive that the Clock Tower incident was the one she's evading justice on but it does somewhat imply it (I mean, clearly there were any number of crimes they were involved in as well). I don't know how Elisa remains close to Jason in a world where he hasn't taken responsibility for that.

And yes, I've been wondering about Renard too. It did occur to me to wonder whether the team that apprehends Goliath in #4 could in fact be working for Cyberbiotics. I guess in this scenario, Renard would put his considerable resources to work on behalf of the Gargoyle Task Force - ostensibly because he wants to lend the city the wherewithal to solve the gargoyle issue but actually because he then has a good deal of control over the situation and can interpolate himself into their affairs if he feels they overstep. This way, he preserves influence while ensuring he can keep Goliath safe and indeed giving Goliath the best chance he can to argue his case. This would explain the somewhat ambiguous nature of Goliath's assailants in #4.

However, this doesn't seem very Renard (then again, neither did body-napping the Golem - I'm not sure we've ever really established how much of Fox's trickster spirit resides within her father. He held Titania's interests for a while and he built a major corporation). But there's a more pragmatic thing Halcyon can do: hold a press conference where he introduces his friend Goliath to the world. Something he can't do if he lies about having met him before.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 2:51:08 pm EDT from 31.94.25.103

Young Justice 3x23 and 3x24: "Terminus" and "Into the Breach"

This is a two-parter so I watched them together. I actually watched them twice, because the first time I was too tired to focus. I feel like I should have a lot to say, but I really don't. The story came to a conclusion. Successfully using the Anti-Life Equation on Superman and the rest of the JL raised the stakes, and then capturing Alpha Team went even further. But Cyborg finally accepting his identity and growing into his powers saved the day. I think the idea was that Granny was split in to two vessels, and defeating the one on Earth stunned the main one long enough for Cyborg to free Halo. It worked on a character level, though I don't know if it was a philosophical defeat of Anti-Life. I guess maybe Beastboy's refusal to back down in his fight was an example of free will. Also, Darkseid has a real case of "Orcus on his Throne." The guy hasn't actually done anything, he just stands there looking at his lava pit while Granny does all the work.

So, yeah, satisfying but not amazing conclusion. Although there are two episodes left in the season, which means we get some epilogue. Conner and M'Gann fighting needs resolution.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 1:38:20 pm EDT from 98.60.149.57

Todd > It had crossed my mind that perhaps Goliath could be held in some zoo or abandoned zoo-like facility under heavy guard, which as you intimate would probably better suit how the public would view him, at least initially.

Ed > Non-citizens can be (and often are) prosecuted and tried for crimes committed within the jurisdiction. I'm not so sure about another species; that's obviously untried legal ground in this country. I don't believe there is technically anything in the NY statutes, or for that matter the federal Constitution, that specifies that legal cases can only be brought against humans (because why would there be?).

I did just come across this truly bizarre Wikipedia article on trials against animals, which apparently occurred in Europe through the 18th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial So I suppose there is some precedent!

Returning to more modern law, mental competency hearings usually will involve several psychologists testifying who have interviewed the defendant beforehand. They have a standard barrage of questions, so if Goliath was able to answer those intelligently, they would likely reach the conclusion that Goliath is indeed competent, and it ergo would follow that he is sentient (if he can understand complexities of human law, the legal system, etc., he's clearly more intelligent than a parrot). But as you say, the initial reaction might be to have zoologists do testing on his mental functions, as well as his physical structure of course.

I don't think the decision on how to proceed would be Margot's (although she'd probably have input as a member of the Gargoyles Task Force, and there's no doubt she'll be the one handling the hearing or trial if one occurs). I imagine the initial decision on what to do with Goliath would be the mayor's and/or the governor's. If they did decide to refer the case to the D.A.'s office, the D.A. himself would certainly be heavily involved and would make the major decisions on how to proceed due to the high public interest and considerable press. The eyes of the world would be on his office, so Margot or whoever handled the case would be under his close scrutiny. (I say "he" because presumably the Manhattan D.A. is Robert Morgenthau, since it's 1997.) Margot might end up being forced to take an approach to the case that she disagreed with and objected to (i.e., treating Goliath as human when she views him as anything but), which could be interesting.

As to the clock tower, I don't believe it was ever specified what crimes Jason and Robyn were arrested for. Initially, probably the property damage to St. Damien's Church. (Desecrating a church, even a condemned one, is frowned upon.) One would hope that Jason and Robyn would have done the right thing by the gargoyles and also confessed to the destruction of the clock tower, if the police didn't already make the connection (and Elisa would certainly do everything she could to clear the gargoyles). But if that's the case, I can't imagine any other crime Goliath could be tried for. If it were purely a "sentience trial," whatever form that may take, it's difficult to even see why the D.A.'s office and Margot would be involved, since there is no crime at issue.

There is also the Renard factor to consider in all this.

One last thought, and then I'll shut up on this. We don't know exactly where we are in 1997, but we are presumably coming up on the first "future event" in the timeline that Greg cryptically teased years ago on Ask Greg: [SPOILER] July 19. Goliath makes a bargain. [/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 12:56:28 pm EDT from 63.143.199.68

Happy Easter, everyone!

I enjoyed the last episode of "The Owl House", and thought it made a lovely end to the series.

[SPOILER] A few favorite elements.

1. We got fitting resolutions to both the Collector and Philip/Belos. The Collector came to understand better the effects their actions were having and developed a better friendship with King. (I especially liked the bit at the end where King gave them Francois to take home with them.) Philip/Belos learns nothing, which also struck me as the right direction for the character; Philip, of course, starts putting on an act of being free, making it look as if all his actions were due to evil magic being imposed on him from without (which we'd seen no sign of anywhere in the series), but it became clear that it was just his usual outward show.

2. Luz is the one who actually does get to speak with the Titan (fitting in with she and Philip being foils for each other), including her concerns about what makes her desperation to protect family and friends from Philip from Philip's conviction that he's doing what he does to protect humanity (those concerns are a testimony to the difference between them, of course; I can't imagine Philip voicing such doubts). And the Titan shares King's love of bread puns, making the message he delivers to his son through Luz both funny and sweet. (I did wonder at first, when he whispered it in Luz's ear, if we were going to get another "mystery whispering" like Titania and Fox.)

3. Luz delivers a (modified) quote of the Good Witch Azura's words at the start of the series in her final showdown with Belos. A really great touch.

4. Luz and Camile stay in contact with the Boiling Isles, and we get at the end Luz's friends in the Isles throwing her a delayed quinceana (I hope I spelled that right), with its own inevitable touches - such as who they got for a pinata. I also enjoyed the glimpses of life afterwards, such as removing the Coven signs from everyone, and Eda now Headmaster. And the cast waving to the Collector at the end in a way that could be seen as a good-bye to the audience. A lovely conclusion. [/SPOILER]

ED - Good points. I certainly suspect that they'd be holding Goliath more in the manner of "dangerous predatory wild animal roaming about" than "human charged with a crime" - as if he was a mountain lion or grizzly bear found on the loose in Central Park. (The analogy felt almost amusing, because earlier this week, the local PBS station aired a documentary about rabbits - no doubt to match Easter - which featured a small town in Canada that was overrun with rabbits, resulting in lots of local predators visiting town to try eating the rabbits. The town's name, believe it or not was Canmore.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 8:45:37 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Antiyonder> [SPOILER] No joke, that was the first name that popped into my head when I saw the little bird. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 8:20:05 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

So regarding a detail in TOH finale:

[SPOILER] https://www.tumblr.com/megadan94/714122470927532032?source=share

Hunter's Palisman is called Waffles. Though my mind also went to Goof Troops. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 8:03:16 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Craig: Really interesting. My thought with prison is more that if they had the capacity to hold Wolf (not for very long but still), they probably could hold Goliath, at least until a more suitable venue could be secured. He's hardly an easy customer to keep locked down. (I wonder what they did make of Wolf since he must have been the first mutate the authorities came across).

The mental competency hearing would be interesting. Would there be different treatment given he's not a citizen (let alone the fact that he's a different species!)?

However, can you imagine Margot even letting the idea of treating him like he's a sentient creature get traction in any discussion? I just can't imagine any existing framework - the ones intended for humans - being used in the first instance, any more than you would with a parrot just because it "talked". Even if someone spoke to Goliath and made a case, there'd be outcry over spending public money to try an animal. A panel of zoologists is perhaps more plausible.

As far as the clock tower goes, I know in "Hunter's Moon" David and Fox seemed to think the city would blame the gargoyles for blowing it up but surely by now everyone knows it was the Canmores? I can't think there's any crime that can really be laid at Goliath's feet.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Apr 9, 2023 3:28:34 am EDT from 31.94.25.103

Wanted to thank everyone that encouraged me to check out The Owl House. Might not have been the season we should've had. But I'm glad we have it all the same.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 10:33:39 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew> Just a minor headcanon I posted in spoilers before, but I just imagine Hunter watching Steven Universe sometime in the Human Realm during TtT, and feeling like he's losing his mind everytime Amethyst speaks. Thinking every so often his sister is talking.XD
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 9:20:33 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

B> That's what I figured. I personally was leaning towards an otter (possibly with a dark side).
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 9:10:15 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Thanks for your thoughts on the direction the story might go in, Ed. You certainly provided a lot for us to think over; I look forward to seeing what course the next few issues will take.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 7:55:01 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Matthew> Oh, I meant to say, the ideas that Luz's friends called out for her what her Palisman was were indeed all things the fandom speculated, which was intentional.
B
B
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 7:41:19 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

But yeah, a source for the casting, was Turtle Power which was a 2014 documentary and on Paramount Plus.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 7:08:13 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

So on the note of the Goodtimes film, actually Aladdin as well as the 1987 TMNT, I actually found a source for a comment by Phelous that it was up in the air on which of the VAs would voice Leonardo and Michelangelo. So the former might have been voiced Townsend Coleman and the latter by Cam Clarke instead of the other way around.

But yeah, as Phelous points out, in GT's Aladdin through the Vizier's son, you get a taste of Cam Clarke Michelangelo.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 7:06:56 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Ed > A "sentience trial" would certainly be a very novel and unprecedented use of the American legal system. In terms of the legal standard that could be applied or what it might look like procedurally, NY does routinely hold mental competency hearings to determine whether a defendant is capable of understanding the proceedings confronting them and is capable of intelligently conferring with their counsel. I suppose it could be a similar type of proceeding to that, but what then? Perhaps that would be a precursor for determining if charges could be brought against Goliath for, say, blowing up the clock tower (which is presumably what most of the public believes based on the news footage). This is the most plausible thing I can think of.

I'm not sure where the DOC would hold Goliath pending the proceedings, but it strikes me as unlikely that they'd put him in a normal prison/jail. He'd be too disruptive a presence, and they don't know what he's capable of.

I would hope that if Goliath is arraigned and the topic of bail is addressed, the judge will determine Goliath a flight risk, leading Goliath to growl, "I cannot fly. I can merely glide on currents of wind."
Craig
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 5:19:56 pm EDT from 209.140.40.10

And also on Disney's YT channel is Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur "Today I Am Woman": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2uXsbKEOj0
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 3:34:40 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Todd: Good point about the speech bubble issue - I'd hope it would be fixed. It would also be nice, if it's not too late, if the trade were dedicated to the memory of Michael Reaves in the same way "Redemption" was dedicated to Gary Sperling. I guess we'll see.

As for the egg blurb, I still think on balance of probabilities it's not a mistake. Surely the text of these blurbs come from Greg or Nate? I think it's describing the whole 12-issue arc - i.e. events yet to come.

**Speculation for #5-12 and beyond:**

The egg was given a lot of attention in #2 and the theme of parenthood was heavily seeded in #1-3. So far we've been introduced to a lot of villains with different motives - Thailog is still short an heir, Dino gets at his enemies by targeting their children, Demona is... Demona and the authorities have every reason to want to find a secure an unhatched gargoyle egg. With Goliath in prison, Brooklyn is leader but his judgment may come under serious question if it's his own child being threatened - as much as eggs are children of the clan, the time dancers are effectively a nuclear family and may feel quite differently from other gargoyles.

We also have the emerging theme of the split (and hopefully, eventual reunification) of the Trio. Goliath anticipated a crisis would draw them together but I could imagine something like this could crystallise still further their quite different approaches and methods. If the egg were stolen or even threatened, whose advice would each of the brothers seek?
- Brooklyn - surely Katana but perhaps he'd even be receptive to Demona. After all, with his journeys up and down the time stream, he may know Demona better than she even knows herself (which in her case, I grant you, probably isn't hard).
- Broadway - he'd look to Elisa and Angela and a probably try to figure out "what Goliath would do".
- Lexington - well, I'd assume he'd go to the smartest guy in the room, which would be Xanatos. Of course, this would have an awkward parallel with Brentwood but the prospect of saving an egg would be motive enough to move past such qualms I imagine.

In this sense, #1-3 serves as a thematic bookend to the egg story: we introduce a key antagonist and see how a misunderstanding like this is resolved fairly benignly through Goliath's presence. Then we see a parallel crisis play out under very different parameters. We've seen elements of this structure before in Greg's work: the terrorist at the start of "City of Stone", the Green Goblin reveal in episode 9 of SSM.

And then of course, there's Goliath. "And Justice for All" has primed us to some degree to expect some form of trial. But there is no legal proceeding that exists to establish a threshold of sentience and no law governing non-humans. Even if all parties were willing to take Goliath's case any form of hearing - and what legal framework is there for this situation? - even a standard case would take months or more than a year to come to trial. Goliath could be waiting for decades.

Therefore Goliath will be held indefinitely, presumably, in Riker's Island - they held Wolf and Hyena until "Phoenix" so evidently they are somewhat equipped to deal with superhumans. A gargoyle in prison - not a safe place at night. Definitely not a safe place in the daytime, especially since you can assume that there would be people there sympathetic to the Quarrymen quite apart from any number of crooks Goliath has helped to apprehend.

There are two potential allies but both are tricky. One is Jason. The other, Tony (and to some extent Brod I guess).

Pragmatically, there's not a lot that Jason can do to help Goliath although Jon would doubtless want to use Jason to get to Goliath so in that sense any proximity to Jason actually increases the threat to Goliath substantially.

Tony though is still a Dracon and in prison I imagine that name carries significance: he might be Goliath's only viable option for, ironically, protection.

Because if Goliath can't get to even argue his case, the only option he really has is to escape. But even then, I think he may need a broader inducement than self-interest to ally with the criminals he's worked to defeat -- a threat to his child (in the clan sense) would easily qualify.

The notoriety of escaping with the world's most famous gargoyle might even be enough for Tony to re-establish his position in the five families... if he can deal with Dino before Dino deals with him.

Of course, if Goliath does help Dracon escape, that definitely puts him on the "threat or menace" side of the ledger in the court of public opinion. It also means that he would have committed a definite, conscious crime - albeit with the thin defence that, since he's not human, he's not subject to human laws. I think Goliath would find that position uncomfortable. For Elisa though, that has to really make life tough: effectively she would become an accessory after the fact. I wonder how long she can justify (or sustain) keeping Chavez in the dark about what she knows and how she can possibly keep her job after that.

Anyway, there are so many possible directions this could all go but it does feel like this is a plausible trajectory for the rest of this arc. I certainly feel like Greg has already lined up a lot of dominoes and I'm really hyped to see how he starts knocking them down.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 2:17:22 pm EDT from 31.94.25.103

B> That too. Heck back when I got Plus, I was able to fully see the entirety of Amphibia, plus Elena of Avalor cause of On-Demand having the rest.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 12:54:22 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Both prior episodes of Season 3 are available On Demand for free if you have Spectrum cable.
B
B
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 9:22:05 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

For those who don't use Disney Plus, The Owl House episode Thanks to Them is viewable again via Disney's YT account.

And will along with For the Future be on the channel still as of the finals Sunday upload.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 8, 2023 1:57:07 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

JURGAN - Yes, that could be it - though if so, it's a pity that nobody caught the error in time to correct it before the blurb was released.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 9:04:35 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Jurgan> Hmm, big coincidence, then, that there actually is an unhatched egg in the rookery right now. But if Demona does go after it when she shows up, that would be repetitive.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 8:52:39 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Or maybe it's even simpler than that: someone saw "gargoyles" and "baby" in the same description and assumed it was a gargoyle egg in question. If you change the word "egg" to "baby" it's a decent description of the first story.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 8:26:28 pm EDT from 98.60.149.57

My theory on the egg thing: The story we got was about kidnapping Maggie and Talon's baby, while in the Marvel comics that are to be rereleased there was a story about Demona secretly running a cult that had a gargoyle egg. I think someone at Dynamite saw those two descriptions, got confused, and combined them into one by mistake.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 8:08:42 pm EDT from 98.60.149.57

ED - Thank you. And thanks for sharing about the trade paperback. I'd also all but forgotten the blurb about the egg, which definitely doesn't match the story so far, and wonder how that got in there. Incidentally, I hope the trade paperback fixes the missing speech balloon problem from #2.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 7:43:23 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I really like the Collector's theme. Like the pastel colors, the instrumentation used stands out from the rest of the soundtrack:

Version from "King's Tide": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPJ2DYrcUgw

Version from "For the Future": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBWfk7nXKdU
.
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posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 4:52:44 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Unicorns in mythology could be violent and even eat people.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 2:57:49 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

As an aside, I like to imagine that Hunter would easily be a Brony (I mean I enjoy MLP and Star Trek myself), but thinking about it an obstacle for any Isle residents (Even Skara in the reference given in Something Ventured, Someone Framed) would be if any of them had an experience with unicorns on the Isles as we see how they can be in Really Small Problem.

B> Maybe, though it could always be a case of any descendants or child(ren) being poisoned with anti-gargoyle views to the point that any remorse or change on his part wouldn't make a dent.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 2:35:16 pm EDT from 107.77.212.170

Matthew> The part of the credo that King read was "Collectors live long, we watch things pass. To preserve, to observe, we must amass. What flies, what swims, be it predator or prey, seal them up so that they never fade." The next part, which the Collector had him skip over, was "But should they meddle in our affairs, we'll clean the planet and scorch the air." Underneath, the Collector had written in "But playing is more fun. Make friends instead, and the others STINK!" So it would seem that he's the least malevolent of his species.

The pictures in the gallery in this latest episode included a painting of adult Collectors giving Titan skulls to people who would become the Titan Trappers, and a painting of "our" Collector playing with young Titans. The figure in the Owl Beast's flashback episodes ago who had trapped it was the height of an adult Collector. So it wasn't actually this Collector who did either of those things. And when the conspirators were huddled near the end of the episode, they mentioned it was the Collector's "predecessors" who had wiped out the Titans upon discovering they could nullify Collector magic, and the Collector looked sad when they said that.

Antiyonder> I question a redemption for Jon simply because Greg Weisman mentioned his descendants, the Castaway family, will still be an antagonistic force in Gargoyles 2198, in conflict with Robyn and Dingo's descendants, the Monmouths.
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posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 2:28:19 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Todd: Thanks belatedly for the April poem and thanks for mentioning the Comics Continuum article which has some nice hype.

I also noticed the TPB pre-order now has a cover image. Two points that have my curiosity piqued:

1. The title is given as "Here in Manhattan" - no indication it's part 1 or volume 1 or what have you. Not sure if this means #7-12 will have a different title after all.

2. I also completely forgot that the initial tease for the storyline last year included a conspiracy by factions around the world to steal a gargoyle egg. This is recycled for the TPB blurb despite the fact that, two thirds into this volume's content - it doesn't even look particularly close to happening.

Looking forward to it, at any rate.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Apr 7, 2023 11:35:08 am EDT from 31.94.25.103

Thanks Todd, one thing I noticed about Belos and his ghosts is that he starts off trying to justify it, for the sake of his soul and all that. And by the end he's just dismissing Caleb and all the Golden Guards out right. That he know longer needs to justify killing them anymore.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Apr 6, 2023 9:34:59 pm EDT from 98.248.2.24

Thanks for the latest (and almost the last, with the final episode being just two days away) review, Matthew.

A couple of my favorite moments in that episode:

1. Terra having to play the part of Eda's "monstrous form", and exactly how she does it.

2. Philip/Belos seeing the ghost of Caleb, complete with a sword or dagger hanging over him (reminiscent of "Macbeth"), and his response is "Oh, shut up!"

3. On a more serious note, the Collector misses the part where King's talking about how they're, underneath all that terrifying power, a lonely child who needs help. Another example of the trouble that comes from "stopped listening in too early" (alongside Demona in "City of Stone Part Four").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Apr 6, 2023 8:43:56 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

1. Just a recap of a comment in regards to Belos, not of the episode. But you notice the two times he saw Flapjack he said either Caleb or Evelyn.

Basically he knows he loses intimation factor by using the Palisman's name.

Oh yeah, basically another significance being that flapjacks according to the charity stream weren't known in the Isles.

And yeah a canonical bit of Hunter cursing ("Damn you pancakes!".*)

2. Even before Camila mentioned cursing Luz's principal, I tend to imagine she would have dropped some curses when dealing with Jacob Hopkins and more recently Kikimora. She just doesn't cause kids are watching. Her kids of course.XD

3. Yeah I never had strong thoughts of John Castaway before an old blog post Bishansky did a long time back (Yeah still odd to refer to the 2000s or early 2010s like that.).

Basically I do think his assessment of John finding redemption/remorse likely.

And it's cause of the difference between him and Belos that I never really considered the Owl House bad guy to be redeemable. Not a complaint of how the character is handled, just that I see Belos as Castaway, but without any of the good or restraint that the former has shown. I think the big thing is Jon not being so eager to hunt gargoyles while Philip as his background (Like pics in Hollow Mind show) demonstrates that witch hunting was a fun game that makes him feel good.

4. Incidentally cause of the noted shared casting of Zeno Robinson, I have occasionally imagined a common mold delirious Hunter to imagine himself as the expert at capturing Pocket Monsters (Again, the term even used on Hooty's blackboard).

Come to think of it, even if the reference was toward the Borg on Star Trek, we fittingly got Zeno's character dressing up as a well borg.:-D

*Makes me think of Hal Jordan in All-Star Batman and Robin shouting "Damn you and your lemonade!".
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Apr 6, 2023 1:11:57 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Today's just so wonderful, I feel like chuckling
Ha ha ha
I feel all fuzzy inside like a duckling; full of tarantulas
And now that I'm here, tonight, it's gonna get weird!

Watched "For the Future" today which brings our heroes plus one of the best moms ever to the Boiling Isles. And again, if given a full season the impact of the return home would have a much bigger impact, but what can ya do? Blame it on the executives.

One thing I haven't talked about much is the color used in the series, while it's certainly colorful, the colors used tend to be more muted, favoring reds above brighter shades. That's in part one reason the Collector looks so out of place, especially when they go whole-hog on the magic bizz. The colors that look more like something from a Lucky Charms commercial just don't match the overall background, I'm half expecting one of the characters to go all, "You got Rainbow Brite all over my Gargoyles!"

The element of the episode is character development and how that's improved the character's lives, how it's made things more difficult, and how ignoring it has made things worse. Camila is undeniably uncomfortable about nearly everything about the Boiling Isles just as Luz feared way back in "Enchanting Grom Fright" but a key thing is that she's also aware of how much she unintentionally hurt her daughter by trying to get her to behave more "normally." And because of that, she's knows that this is normal for the other kids (relatively speaking considering all that's happening), and while still being weirded out by the Boiling Isles, still tries to be as respectful as possible.

Now that I think about it, it's funny to look back and see where our heroes are compared to where they were. It's hard to believe that Amity was once an elitist snob or that Willow was so demure and uncertain of herself. Meanwhile, the central antagonists of the episode are folks who have completely refused any kind of change or accepted that they need to change due to everything that's happened. Belos of course remains the puritanical monster that he's always been, Odalia keeps trying to suck up to the highest power around without any concern towards her family, Terra made the big mistake of thinking she could just continue to bully anyone she wanted to and Kikimora continues her own thing even though its detrimental to long term survival at this point. That's why it was necessary for Boscha to have her breakdown, to come to terms with the fact that the time and situation means she can't continue her queen bee of Hexside act with everything going on. She's been hurt by the loss of her team and has retreated into her worse self because that's the closest thing she's had to normal lately. But being a leader isn't just about looking after the welfare of the team and it's certainly not showing no weakness at all. It also means looking after your own welfare too.

Speaking of breakdowns, we get a couple of big ones from Hunter and Willow and I guess it's not just Gus who's magic goes haywire when stressed out. Hunter has being dealing with PTSD for some time now and losing Flapjack by his own hand has probably hit him harder than he could've imagined. But Willow and Gus's comments help snap him out of going down a dark path and in turn helps save Willow. Willow has always been the reliable one but unfortunately Gus' constant reminders of that fact have only upped the pressure and anxiety that she's going through. Hunter may have found his family but Willow has lost hers and it's only after she opens up to that and has that moment of weakness is she able to have that catharsis and regain control.


There's a fascinating look into the Collector and what they're about here too. The episode doesn't hide the fact that this kid is dangerous, but also not intentionally malicious either. I talked before about how frightening a child with god-like powers can be and it's certainly displayed here. And it's even worse because in spite of being older than the Boiling Isles, they're still just an excitable and naïve child. Easily swayed by King (for the attempted benefit of all) or Belos (to the good of no one) and the Collector is just impulsive enough to The story King reads sounds more like a credo that other Collectors or children of the stars are supposed to abide to. But the Collector would rather play games and have fun and doesn't seem to be aware of the full implications of their actions. There's still a lot of mystery about why they were sealed up in the first place. For all we know the Titan just put them away for a time-out until they could learn to behave (and wouldn't that make for a surprising origin or the Titan Trappers), only for their behavior to get worse from being stuck all alone. And made all the more easier to be manipulated by Belos.

To wrap up, I can't imagine what kind of speculation went on while waiting for Luz's palisman to take shape, and I rather like that her friends all list creatures that would be thematically appropriate for her. And it turns out to be all of them in the case of Stringbean the Snakeshifter. Stringbean strongly resembles a dratini from pokemon so I can imagine that's another real life influence from Dana Terrace. I also like that it was hatched from the moment of honesty between Luz and her mother. Luz is an oddball to be sure, someone who is Bi, undeniably on the Spectrum and always had a unique perspective on things and interests that leaned heavily towards the macabre. But none of those ever made her a bad kid, she's always been an open and friendly girl hoping for the best outcome for everyone else. Someone who's struggled and has doubts but still wants that best outcome. And the moment of understanding is the moment she knows exactly what she wants. To be the Good Witch Luz Noceda.

Favorite Lines:

Hunter: Oh come on! It's not like a swarm of ghosts will inexplicably appear if you say his name!...I think. Anyway, if Belos was here, he's long gone now.
Camila: Well, he better stay out of our way. This mama's HUNGRY FOR VENGANCE!
Gus: Now that is a fight I'd watch!

Camila: Mija, you never told me how pretty this place was! The trees, the sky, qué bellezaAHHHHH!!
Camila: Kids, stand back! Who knows if that monster is alive or not?
Amity: Actually, the...Titan skull is normal. Everything else is...wrong.

Luz: Mama, you're pretending to like this place, aren't you?
Camila: (Awkwardly) Nooooo! I love the fact that you've been living on a giant... carcass.
Luz: It's sweet of you, really. But I haven't changed my mind. After we rescue Eda and King, I'm staying in the Human Realm. Permanently. It's for the best.

Amity: Remember what the Bat Queen said. To connect with the palisman, you need to express your deepest wish.
Luz: I never asked. How did you connect with your palisman?
Amity: Well, after being handled the staff, I said "I wanna be a great witch! Or... uh, I don't know, I... wanna be an author like Mildred Featherwhyle!" But... she wouldn't move, until I admitted that... I don't know what I'm gonna be when I grow up, but... I wanna choose the path myself. And that was enough.

King: I should probably uh, go check on the ol' Owl Beast. Maybe get her something to eat?
The Collector: What do mortals eat again? Rocks? Fire? Gravity?

Lilith: Hootsifer! Is he okay? Can he hear me? HOOTSIFER! CAN YOU HEAR ME?
Hooty: Sequestered at a darkness like unto death, the dulcet tones of an angel wakes me. Be it you?? LULU??!!
Lilith: It be, IT BE!
Eda: Hooty, you keep finding new and impressive ways to creep me out.

Gus: We're all gonna miss Flapjack, but... we know he loved you the most.
Willow: And we just wanna let you know, we don't care who you're supposed to be. ‘cause you are one of us now. Never forget that.

Luz: What gives, Kikimora?! Are you working for The Collector?!
Kikimora: The days of Kikimora the underling are over. I prefer partnership such as ours. We need to establish our rule now, for the well-being of future generations.
Camila: Okay, I'm still catching up. What's the little red kitten trying to do?
Luz: She's just copying Belos' "scare people into worship" thing because she has NO IDEAS OF HER OWN!

Luz: My whole plan fell apart, I- I messed up again!
Camila: What are you talking about?
Luz: (sigh) It doesn't matter.
Camila: No, mija. It does matter. You don't want to leave the Demon Realm, do you?
Luz: Of course not! But...
Camila: You keep messing up? Messing up is a part of living! You don't think I've ever messed up before? Ha! Okay, well, once I scheduled my wisdom tooth surgery the day before my wedding. Oh, then there was that time I got road rage and didn't realize I was cursing out your new principal. And, you know, I sold energy drinks for a pyramid scheme for 3 years! And of course, I was convinced we should move to Gravesfield to be closer to that fancy hospital. You know how that ended.

(Both Nocedas begin tearing up at that last part)

Camila: And worst of all, I didn't stand up for you when you needed me most. I forgot about the Astral Oath.
Luz: The what?
Camila: The Astral Oath is a promise made between Captain Avery and his family, to love and protect each other just as they are... Through supernovas, and solar winds.
Luz: Mom... are you a secret nerd?
Camila: I had a hard time growing up. I was afraid you would too. My biggest mistake was trying to protect you, by changing this beautiful Good Witch into something she wasn't.

(As Camila speaks, she puts the hat back on Luz's head and caresses her cheek. Luz becomes touched and starts sobbing. Inside her waist pouch, her Palisman egg starts glowing. Luz wipes off her tears without noticing it.)

Luz: I think I just... realized something.

(The Palisman egg starts to crack.)

Luz: I don't know why it took me so long to figure out.

(The Palisman egg cracks further. Camila stares at Luz and smiles.)

Luz: The only thing I've ever really wanted...

(The Palisman egg's glow becomes bright enough that it grabs Camila's attention. Luz however, still didn't notice this.)

Luz: ...was to be understood!

Hunter: You didn't make anything worse, you didn't do anything wrong! You guys mean the world to me, and I... I didn't know how to say that yet. Just please don't call yourself that ever again. You've been holding in a lot, haven't you?
Gus: Willow! Reliable people need someone to rely on too! Just let it out, we'll be fine!

Gus: Hunter, how did you do that?
Hunter: Do what?
Gus: You have magic, dude!
Hunter: The... magic of friendship?
Willow: No! The magic of FLAPJACK!

Camila: What kind of magical creature will it be? A dragon?
Hunter: A bird?
Amity: Oh, an otter!
Willow: A spooky bat?
Gus: A... snake?
Luz: You're close.

(The swirling cloud at the end of her staff transforms into a serpentine, spooky bat, then a scorpion with a mischievous otter face, then an Oriental dragon before it settles on it's true form, a Snakeshifter.)

Luz: She's a Snakeshifter! Her name is Stringbean and she's perfect!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Apr 6, 2023 12:17:20 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Today's Comics Continuum ran a story about Demona returning in "Gargoyles" #7. No new information, but it showed the various covers of that upcoming issue.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Apr 5, 2023 7:45:00 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Greetings from https://www.drywallgreensboro.com/
Miko - [ampva300 at gmail dot com]
Miko
posted @ Tue, Apr 4, 2023 8:14:03 pm EDT from 138.199.21.202

Well we got Paramount Plus recently, so I'm going to binging Beavis and Butthead, new and old.

And yeah, I even have a handful of the comics published by Marvel. First issue specifies the series to be for Immature Readers Only.XD
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Apr 4, 2023 6:15:59 pm EDT from 166.216.158.20

You mean Unicorn: Warriors Eternal? I'm definitely interested.

I didn't catch Primal. I'm not sure I knew it was by him. Is it good?
B
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posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 10:40:53 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Yeah, it's some kind of fantastical steam punk which I think is worth checking out.
Which reminds me, I still need to watch "Primal."
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 8:42:38 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Hiya! I've been lurking in and out, just didn't have much to add in with the Young Justice discussion mostly dying down.

But speaking of cartoons - is anyone else excited for Gendy Tartakovsky's new show? I hadn't heard of it before now but apparently it's been in the works for quite some time.
Karrin Blue
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 8:37:45 pm EDT from 68.9.88.39

Disney did a "Chibi Tiny Tales" birthday salute to the Disney Channel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62gnshX8cE

Take a look at who appears at 0:47.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 8:32:17 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

And Billy Kametz (voice of Nevareth) also did voice work on Journey as a Professor Cerise's assistant Ren and also Rotom Phone
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 5:42:27 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Matthew> Yeah and Hooty's attempts to figure out what he was in KKKoHD among speculations involved "Pocket Monster".

Plus Luz's sea garb resembling Team Aqua uniforms from Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald and the remakes Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire.

And as a nice coincidence is Zeno Robinson (Cyborg on Young Justice), Hunter's VA also having voiced Goh on the English Dubs of Pokémon Journey.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 5:36:09 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Hey, Karrin. It's been awhile.

I remember that interview Dana gave about the last gift from her father, I think that's why King's design is reminiscent of Cubone.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 4:59:28 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

But yeah some of the overall details leading to the Clawthornes being connected to the Wittebanes:

1. Minor, but Hunter initially having that same departure Eda would have (Byyyye!). Maybe something Caleb did.

2. Well the portal door and key being on the Clawthorne residence (Keeping Up A-Fear-Ances).

3. Dell looking oddly close to the younger Philip and even having a similar looking Palisman as Caleb.

4. Yeah I think Dana even said that Bird Palisman are just a Clawthorne thing.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 3:11:51 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

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Jordan
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 2:31:33 pm EDT from 51.81.153.189

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Jordan
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 2:29:24 pm EDT from 51.81.153.189

One thing mentioned I think even before Thanks to Them and is acknowledged through Manny giving Luz her first Azura book is Dana being given Pokémon Red from her own dad before he passed on.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 12:51:17 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

*insisted*
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posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 11:56:41 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

I found it an improvement on Amphibia that Camila insisting on accompanying Luz back to the Demon Realm. While it may have been touching that Anne's parents had faith she could handle going back to Amphibia to fight King Andrias without them, it was a tad unrealistic. I'm not a parent (yet), but know I would definitely have done what Camila did in her place.

I also saw a parallel to Jason and Jon in Caleb and Philip given it was the younger brother who was still on the hunting track in both cases. Although Jason didn't die and is still around trying unsuccessfully to talk sense into his brother.

It was nice to see Masha, Vee's non-binary friend and probable love interest from camp, again, and I hope it's not too difficult for Vee to re-establish her relationship with them in another guise. Masha seems like someone it would be safe to tell the truth to, too.
B
B
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 11:56:21 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

A blink and you'll miss it addition to Evelyn, Edalyn, and Gwendolyn - Eda's fake human name is Marilyn.

I still hope we might get some sort of lost-episodes miniseries, someday. It really would be great to see that montage expanded on.
Karrin Blue
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 10:43:41 am EDT from 72.10.127.194

Second.

I open wide the portals of the Spring
To welcome the procession of the flowers,
With their gay banners, and the birds that sing
Their song of songs from their aerial towers.
I soften with my sunshine and my showers
The heart of earth; with thoughts of love I glide
Into the hearts of men; and with the hours
Upon the Bull with wreathed horns I ride.

"The Poet's Calendar", "April", Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Thanks for the review of "Thanks to Them", Matthew. That was a very good episode.

While, as you point out, it's a bit of a pity that Luz's friends' time on Earth had to be compressed in a single story, that element only entered the series after they found out that the third season was going to be just three hour-long episodes. Apparently the Day of Unity was originally planned for Season Three instead, though we don't know the details (the Collector also got in only after they got the "truncated third season" news).

And we got some great moments in it. (Including Luz's friends meeting a giraffe, and discovering how how freakish it is, bringing back that line from the first episode. I noticed, also, that the cameos from the opossums might have been inspired by a moment in "Elsewhere and Elsewhen" when Eda includes opossums on a list of mythical creatures, and when Luz points out that they're real, laughs in a sceptical way. And you mentioned Hunter's belief that wolves were mythical - admittedly, they do have a major presence in myth and legend. I also noticed Amity's encounter with the card catalogue at the local library - a very old-fashioned library if it still has a card catalogue, by the way.)

As you point out, we get more background on Camile (I particularly liked the revelation that she'd been a "Trekkie-counterpart" when she was younger) - and that big moment at the end where she accompanies Luz back to the Boiling Isles. How often in portal fantasies does that happen?

Note another clue that Evelyn might have been a Clawthorne (besides the ones you mentioned, including Flapjack) - Eda's full first name was Edalyn, and her mother's name was Gwendolyn. So, when the witch who met the Wittebane brothers has a name also ending in "-lyn"....

And as you note, we get hints that Philip's plan to wipe out the population of the Boiling Isles was based not just on 17th century superstition and glory-seeking, but also a possessive tone towards his brother. (The fact that Philip's genocidal campaign is linked to his killing his older brother might seem a bit familiar to us "Gargoyles" fans, except he killed Caleb on purpose rather than by mistake.)

Another of my favorite touches was Luz's outburst in English about a heroic traveler (unidentified, but I wonder whether the writers had Odysseus in mind) whose misfortunes she saw as mirroring her own (especially her guilt over having unwittingly helped Philip/Belos come to power).

Am looking forward to your thoughts on the next episode.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 8:49:41 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

And so we come to the start of the end.

Watched "Thanks to Them" today and I feel just a little sad while watching this. On the one hand, I'm glad that Owl House got to have a proper conclusion, on the other hand I wish it got a proper season's worth of episodes to tell it. There are several montages here and each of them showing what could've been worthy of an A or B plot in an episode. Like Luz and Amity trying to find the best way to announce to Camila that they're dating (maybe getting a "Hola Bi, soy mamá" in response). Or even Gus exploring the human world and all of its fascinations. Or most importantly, some time dedicated to these kids and the impact of being stuck in an even stranger world (for them) and losing everyone they know and care about as it's left to the whims of the Collector. Oh well, I guess that's what fanfiction is for, or hopefully future comics.

One of the big things of the episode is Camila and how she deals with all the craziness of the situation. One great thing about her is that despite Luz's fear that her mother wouldn't accept all the strange and wonderful things about the Boiling Isles, she's actually fairly open to them. "Yesterday's Lie" shows that despite her apprehension once she saw a distressed Vee in a cage, that was all that was needed for the maternal instincts to kick in and she laid the smackdown on that idiot curator (who I see is still an idiot). Likewise, despite the fact that she was not prepared for four magic-using teens suddenly bunking with her, she still goes out of her way to make sure that they're properly cared for and have a place to call home for the time being. I guess that makes them the Camila's Dumb Kids Club for the time being?

Another thing of note is that despite the series starting with Luz and Camila not being on the same page, it turns out that even if she didn't fully understand Luz, she was supportive of her for most of her life. And that this shift was a more recent thing than anything else, in part of losing her husband and because of years of social pressure. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that judging by her accent, English wasn't Camila's first language, or she was raised in a more insular community during her formative years. I did a quick check of Connecticut's demographics and while there is a sizable Hispanic and Latin community, they're still very much a minority. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if Camila was bullied in school because of her ethnic background. I actually kind of like that Luz's mother figures, Camila and Eda, were both outsiders from the school norm.

Deciding to set the episode around Halloween was a good choice, and not just because it's pretty obvious that the creative team behind the show are definitive halloweenies, but because it fits the horror theme of the episode's climax. Belos' long process of rebuilding his body is all kinds of messed up and reminds me of the Mindflayer from Stranger Things. Guy spent centuries destroying palisman to extend his life and his first day back he does the same thing, killing animals to build back his body. And not only that, we have the possessed-body story too. I actually thought that bit of Belos was absorbed into Hunter during the last episode rather than here, but it does make more sense for it to be a more recent development considering how quickly he goes back to being a veritable monster again. It's a bitter development that Hunter manages to start overcoming Belos' control after he mortally wounds Flapjack, Hunter's first real friend. It's a somber parallel that Belos destroyed palisman in order to preserve his own twisted life and Flapjack willingly gives up his own life to protect Hunter.

Finally, I want to talk a bit about the story of the two Wittebane brothers and the little details of that story. On the surface, the story is pretty clear cut; the two brothers stumbled their way into the Boiling Isles where Philip refused to let go of his witch hunting attitude and eventually set himself up as emperor. But the montage also shows the witch Evelyn enthralling Caleb with a cardinal on fire. The very sight of Flapjack causes Belos to flip out and shout "Caleb!" then he takes a certain level of satisfaction over crushing the little guy. Flapjack was part of the group of palisman who were up for adoption, who's to say how old the little bird was? And since he knew an awful lot about where the rebus was, whether this was his first time in the human realm? And whether he was the palisman of a certain witch that tempted the Wittebane brothers back in the day? And was their a connection perhaps to a certain witch family with a history of bird-themed palisman?

Some Final Thoughts:
So that's why Luz is so attached to "The Good Witch Azura," it was probably the last gift her father gave her, pretty tragic actually. Still, it's nice to know that he gave her something she knew she would love, sometimes it's the little gifts that stay with us, keep memories of our loved ones alive. I loved the hobbies the Boiling Isles kids picked up in the human realm. Willow and her photography, Gus with sci-fi and Hunter and his sewing. You know, with the shaggy hair, scars and wolf shirt he looks like the headliner for a grunge band. The little bits of the kids in the human realm are pretty hilarious, especially the fact that the shape-shifting, magic-eating basilisk is more acclimated to the human world than any of them. I also like Vee's new form, she was already adorable in the mostly Luz look, but this works out well for her.

Favorite Lines:

Camila: Hi. Ooh! I like what you've done with the place. No more exposed nails or possum nests. But this still confuses me.

(She gestures to a freaky Hooty painting on the door)

Willow: Yeah. He still confuses us too.
Gus: Hola Camila. We're learning Spanish from this scary owl app.
Tablet: Hoot hoot! Practice every day, or I'll appear in your nightmares.

Hunter: Camila taught me how to use this sewing contraption. Even Darius's stitches have never been this neat. Oh, and look at what I made! These are mystical beasts called wolves, and I love them!
Gus: That looks great. You know, you've been smiling a lot more since we've been here.
Hunter: It's not like I don't want to return! I just need a way to pass the time. That's all.
Gus: No. It's good to see you happy. One of us might as well be....What was it like to be in the Emperor's Coven for so long?
Hunter: I trained a lot. I studied a lot. I wasn't really allowed to be around the other scouts. But weekends were nice. I got to leave the castle for missions.
Gus: Do you miss it?
Hunter: I miss knowing who I'm supposed to be.
Gus: I miss my dad.
Hunter: We'll find a way back. We have to.

Hunter: [walks between Gus and Vee, the former amazed] According to Cosmic Frontier, this is what the modern human male wears.

Vee: This was written in the '90s about the year 2008.
Hunter: Yeah. Can't wait for that New Year's party.
Gus: And did you get to the last chapter?
Hunter: O'Bailey is still hiding the fact that he's a Duplicant in hyperdisguise. But Captain Avery is figuring it out.
Gus: I think he already knows but-
Hunter: Ah, bup-bup-bup! No, no, no, no, no spoilers!
Amity: Hunter, I don't think the world is ready for the brave fashion choices of the year 2008. Please change.
Willow: Don't listen to her!

Masha: I hope you're all prepared for a truly scary ride.
Gus and Willow: Make us cry! Make us cry!
Masha: Because there's nothing scarier than knowledge.
Gus: Boo, just lie to me!
Masha: Let me tell you the eeriest unsolved mystery of Gravesfield. The Tale of the Brothers Wittebane.
Amity: (to Luz and Hunter) Wittebane? Isn't that Belos?
Masha: The year is 1613. Two orphaned brothers arrive in Gravesfield. Their names? Philip...and Caleb.
Hunter: Oh no.
Masha: Caleb did his best to take care of his younger brother. They tried to fit in with this town, and its unsavory practices. They became witch-hunters! Local lore suggests that the Brothers Wittebane met a real witch from another world! Her name was Evelyn. And the older brother was spirited away. She dazzled him with magic and visions of a strange yet beautiful place. They used a secret code to travel between worlds. Philip set off to save his brother and bring the witch to justice. But neither were ever seen again! Maybe Philip saved Caleb, and they went on to lead peaceful lives. Or maybe he's still chasing his brother, caught in a cycle of horror and strife!

(Gasp!)

Masha: Sounds like big bro got a hot witch girlfriend and little bro got upset. But that's just me.

Hunter: You know what I'd like, Belos? [groaning] I'd like to leave the Emperor's Coven and never step foot in that throne room again. I'd like to study wild magic, and learn how to carve palismen. I'd like to attend Hexside as a regular student and play flyer derby with my friends. But most of all, I'd like to make sure you never hurt anyone again!

Amity: Um, Luz. What did Belos mean when he said you helped him meet The Collector? I mean, that was a lie, right?
Luz: No, it was true. If it weren't for me, the Day of Unity would have never happened. There was this time pool, and I met him. I met him when he was still just Philip, and I taught him the light spell. I introduced him to The Collector. I set everything in motion. I'm sorry, everyone.
Amity: Why did you keep all that a secret?
Luz: I was scared. I thought you'd all hate me for it. Which is why I've made a decision. I think it'd be in everyone's best interest if I-
Camila: Took your mama to the Demon Realm!
Luz: What?!
Amity: (Hugging Luz) I couldn't hate you, Luz. The fact that you still stand up for us means enough to me.
Camila: Mija, now that I've seen what you're up against, there is no way I'm letting you go back there alone. It is our duty to help your friends get back to their families.
Luz: But...
Hunter: You were tricked. That's what Belos does. He tricks people. But if it weren't you, it would have been someone else, and then there'd be no one left to fight back. So let's do that. Let's fight back. Please? For Flapjack?
Luz: ...For Flapjack.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Apr 3, 2023 5:08:34 am EDT from 64.85.245.77