It's a beautiful line with a heartbreaking reading by Ed Asner.

Sorry, we just recorded "The Price" (it'll come out after Upgrade, Protection, and The Cage) and Ed's work is just fresh on the mind.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Sun, Aug 6, 2023 9:01:40 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Yes, count me as another viewer who really liked Hudson's line, and saw it as a big moment in the series.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 6, 2023 8:58:07 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

The Ninja Turtles has done their fair share of dark future stories as well. "The Last Ronin" series is built around it, the 2012 series had one with a Mad Max flair. Even the 2003 series had one with an episode that was really similar to "Future Tense."
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 6, 2023 7:49:46 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Todd: Well there are dozens of TMNT continuities and the Archie one is now probably one of the most obscure but yes, the story had the future Donatello and Raphael come back 100 years from 2094. It wasn't a "dark future" necessarily (although one of the issues was called "Future Tense'). Raphael had lost an eye because of the battle that caused them to seek out their past selves and New York was like Venice because of rising sea levels, but in other respects the turtles and other mutants were now living in the city as ordinary citizens and had careers and in some cases relationships.

Jurgan: Yes. Amazing line. Beautiful delivery. Rewatched "The Gathering" last night. Only about one minute in the first two thirds of the story isn't exclusively about the villains - and yet I find it so emotional. And it has one of the most gorgeous Goliath/Elisa scenes.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Aug 6, 2023 4:26:45 am EDT from 86.160.27.155

Yeah, I think especially as it is in comic form, Gargoyles is an easy favorite as it's an example of how say Marvel and DC could have taken after Watchmen with strong story telling, but not taking itself too seriously to the point of being joyless.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 11:07:35 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Heh, forgot my icon and color.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 8:32:06 pm EDT from 24.11.173.82

"The revelation that the eggs have survived and thrived, plus the finding of other clans all over the world set the series apart because it gives the characters genuine hope for the future and not in the "their names and deeds will live on as long as we remember them" thing."

One of my favorite lines of the series is when Hudson learns about all the other clans around the world. "We're not the last. We're not alone." Asner read it beautifully, you could feel Hudson's joy in the moment.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 8:31:30 pm EDT from 24.11.173.82

ED - Good point. I suspect that the show most likely wouldn't have addressed the issue if they *had* taken the approach of "No other gargoyles out there", and drawn the audience's attention away from it whenever possible.

The main challenge of that approach would have been setting up a long-term direction for the gargoyles. At the start, it would still be the same - needing to relocate from the castle before Xanatos came back, finding a purpose through protecting the city - but with no other gargoyles out there, where do you go next? The closest I could think of was searching for successors to take over their role of protecting Manhattan from threats that the NYPD wouldn't be able to handle on their own, leading to the possibility of "high-tech substitute gargoyles" (like Xanatos's aspirations for his own gargoyles, though for a higher purpose) - but that wouldn't fit the series' focus on the gargoyles as gargoyles, not just "super-powered crime-fighters".

On your mention of a conversation with a "future Raphael" - I'm not a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles expert, but I've read that they once did a "Future Tense"-type story about a dark future. Was the "future Raphael" part of it?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 8:02:18 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Craig: Yow! 16 pages for a full issue is pretty dreadful. (In the UK, anthology comics are a lot more common so 2 pages every week or 5 pages a fortnight weren't unusual -- but the total number of pages in the book was much bigger). The best book (apart from ‘Gargoyles’) that I currently follow is ‘Lazarus’ which has some unbelievably long gaps but, all credit to Greg Rucka, he’s said that he’s going to go away and only start up again once he’s ready to put out the next (and final) arc consecutively. Might not be this year or next but it’ll be exciting to see it wrap up.

Todd: Well it’s hard to prove a negative so it wouldn’t be possible for the gargoyles to positively know they’re the last. I imagine tonally it would be more like the first 33 episodes where the lack of a future simply isn’t referenced. As the gargoyles aged, clearly it would become more of an issue, but not in the timeframe the show (or comics) covered. (In the TMNT comic, it was a conversation with a future version of Raphael).
Ed
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 4:40:11 pm EDT from 86.160.27.155

Well-summed up, Matthew.

I've also thought that the "hope for peace between humans and gargoyles" would have felt pointless if the Manhattan clan of Season One and Demona really were the only gargoyles left. It'd come too late if achieved; the most it could ensure was that Goliath and his clan would be able to live out their lives in some sort of peace with humans - and maybe that humans would learn from this and not wipe out other such beings. But it wouldn't have been as strong.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 9:26:49 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

"Last of their kind" stories are fairly common, especially in comics. My favorite play on this story was in 8-bit Theater when one of main characters decides to start up a support group made up of people who are the last of their kind.

But one big problem that it runs into is as often spelled out, that once the character or small group of them is gone, the narrative possibilities dry up fast. Comic books have done this a lot, the MCU has certainly overdone it, and Star Wars can't seem to stop doing it. After awhile it becomes tedious and I just want to say, "You can prop up your characters and make them special without all the genocide."

But that's what makes Gargoyles as a series unique; early on in the series the loss of their whole clan and nothing about their eggs weighs heavily on the heroes and especially Goliath. What I liked about "Her Brother's Keeper" is near the end where Goliath near explodes over Eliza and Derek's argument, because he would do anything just to have his rookery brothers and sisters with him, even for a petty squabble.

The revelation that the eggs have survived and thrived, plus the finding of other clans all over the world set the series apart because it gives the characters genuine hope for the future and not in the "their names and deeds will live on as long as we remember them" thing. There's a substance to it that not every franchise engages in because one of the themes in Gargoyles is what I would call "Growth and progression through traditional and unconventional means."

At the very least, it's already a mature enough show, no need to add the existential dread of extinction along with it.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 4:29:59 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Love the discussion! <3
Paving Everett
posted @ Sat, Aug 5, 2023 3:03:09 am EDT from 180.191.198.185

Sorry for the double post, but - while I've pre-ordered the Fleecs cover for my copy of #8, as always, I rather like the Conner cover of Elisa and Bronx having a quiet evening together. It's a charming scene - though I wonder what Cagney must be thinking of the gargoyle beast's presence in his apartment.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 9:05:24 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

ED - Good points about the differences between the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the gargoyles, and the Mutates.

I've wondered whether a series where the Manhattan clan and Demona really were the last gargoyles could still have preserved a sense of hope by focusing on the difference that Goliath and his clan are making in protecting the city, and downplaying the fact that they're the last members of an ancient species which will die out with them. That would have probably meant downplaying the gargoyles as gargoyles, with all the delving into their nature (one of the major strengths of the series), however.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 8:41:49 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

The final thing I want to say on the subject of the exposition dumps is this: I hope I don't sound ungrateful. I'm obviously very passionate about this franchise, as are we all, and want to see it be as great as possible. But I also want to see it be as successful as possible. And if that means we have to eat some vegetables now and then in order to get our ice cream, I can fully accept that. I'd rather have 100 issues with the occasional exposition dump than 12 issues without. So, having vented my criticism, I want to once again give proper thanks to Greg for the volume of high-quality work he's producing every month. I wouldn't be nearly as invested if these comics weren't overall awesome, and the way the storytelling has truly evolved into a "monthly comic book" feel in a way that the SLG run never truly accomplished is very very cool. The only other title I'm currently following is 'Miracleman,' and while Neil Gaiman and Mark Buckingham are undeniably masters of their craft and I'm really enjoying it overall...the issues have dwindled to being 16 pages long, and even with that short page count, the latest issue is now three months late. It's not easy to produce content on a monthly pace (although I know Greg says that a lack of ideas is never his problem), so I'm very grateful that they've been able to keep such a high level of quality on two books now while sticking to the schedule.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 5:46:58 pm EDT from 24.46.161.234

I'm not sure Coldstone has any "living bits". He is a mix of a magically animated corpse and cybernetic parts. He and Coldfire won't age biologicaly, though, as you said, their parts might wear down without maintenance or replacement over time.
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 4:36:06 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Ed > Those are all fair points about info-dumps on the original show, although the "Previously On" segments were a preferable way of going about this to me because it wasn't shoe-horning in unnatural-sounding dialogue (monologue, I guess) into the story itself. And the "Outfoxed" flashbacks came about not because the creators felt they were strictly necessary for understanding, but rather because the animation for that episode came back very short, apparently. I think comic book fans typically have pretty good patience for deep continuity and callbacks to events years in the past, but I take your point about adults vs. children. (I relate to it much more than I'd care to admit.)

One thing that occurred to me with this talk of various characters' roles in the future of the clan is that Coldfire is potentially semi-immortal. I mean, machines break down eventually, but if she's well-maintained, she has the potential to outlive everyone else (even Coldstone has some biological bits). It will be interesting in the long run to see how her relationship to the clan members develops as they all age and she doesn't.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 2:41:44 pm EDT from 24.46.160.147

Alex: Interesting, as ever. I think the point of divergence from which most of the rest flows is your view of the Archmage as a “vague existential threat”. But giving them a day to live is a very specific, imminent, existential threat — and it’s a threat from Goliath’s past very much affecting his future (the eggs). I think the Archmage is a tangible, personal menace that Goliath can parse in a way the Weird Sisters just aren’t - he was responsible for defeating the Archmage and failed. He's had opportunities to defeat Demona and Macbeth and failed. He was responsible for protecting the eggs and failed. Now he is given a second chance by the extraordinary sacrifices made by three humans he could barely even stand. I think Keith David carries the weight of so many emotions in the “more than I could have asked for” scene impeccably - guilt, joy, grief, awe… I find it an incredibly moving scene. I also think Goliath rescuing the eggs from the Archmage is redemptive in some ways and allows the show and the characters to move past the fact that he abandoned them. (And given the complexity of the narrative around Demona and Macbeth, I'm happy they were kept as pawns here - they'd have taken too much narrative oxygen to service otherwise).

Craig: (Taking this out of spoiler text as the discussion has moved on.) I dunno, I think there was quite a lot of, as you say, “info-dumping” on the original show. 30 seconds of “previously” material whether needed or not. Several episodes have extensive flashback sequences on top - “Outfoxed” and particularly “The Cage” spring to mind. Other episodes cleverly work flashbacks into new scenes so it didn’t feel like they were flashbacks - “Avalon” is a masterclass at this. And let’s remember - very few of the original series episodes were anywhere like as continuity-intensive as the comic. Outside the multi-parters, the casts tended to be a lot smaller and more focused and even B-plots disconnected from the main action were relatively rare, let alone the many storylines we have going on here. Only towards the end - “The Reckoning”, “Possession”, “The Journey” if you count it, did we get single episodes with quite so many moving parts.

Although the episodes are currently available on Disney+ (although with the implosion of streaming and the decline of DVDs, who knows how long they’ll remain as accessible), I’m not sure how newbie-friendly it is to put a big ancillary price tag on understanding current plot points. A part of me wishes that, rather than use two pages of precious Kambadais art, some of these expeditionary points could be put into back-up material a bit like the text stories but then you risk conveying the sense that people need to “do homework” instead of, as here, you just read the story and it tells you what you need. It allows the Dynamite books to stand alone so if this is the only experience of the franchise people have or are able to have, it still feels relatively complete. Also, there’s a difference between readers being able to keep up and feeling invited to keep up.

I also suspect that you need to “hand hold” just as much, perhaps in some ways even more, with an adult audience than a child one. 10-year-olds swallow mountains of continuity wholesale — they have the time, enthusiasm and attention for colossal level of details about topics that interest them and usually have a ready-made community of people to talk to and remind them through school. People in their 30s and 40s are usually busy and even people who love the show and the comic, even people who’ve watched the Disney+ run relatively recently and bought the SLG books back in the day, can be forgiven for not having an encyclopaedic recall of it. I often can’t remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone the intricacies of the backstories of secondary characters from a 90s TV show and a 00s comic book and being set 80 minutes of homework by being referred to four television episodes isn’t going to help with that. If I were a more casual fan, I’d be exactly the kind of reader who would be interested in picking it up and would have the disposable income to potentially keep buying but would be liable to drop it or lose track of it if I kept going “who’s that again?”

Todd: The mutants and mutates are similar in the manner of their becoming “the last” and the gargoyles are different in they have their own long-standing culture and traditions. Emotionally, though, I think the turtles are very different from the mutates and much closer to the experience the gargoyles would have. The difference with the mutates is that they saw themselves as humans who were changed, in the same way people may have an acquired disability later in life. My guess is that Maggie would have wanted a child who was human - or as human as possible. But even then, they could potentially (albeit with extreme logistical difficulties) adopt a human or simply accept as many people have to that they are unable to reproduce. However, the race they are born with with - humans - would continue. I think the point in the TMNT comic was that, with four male turtles who had been turtles all their living memories, they could never have children in a traditional manner and so their line ended with them. In a similar way, the gargoyles would have had to face the fact that there was no way to procreate, no way to have a new rookery. (It would be interesting to see a Birnham Wood scene or just Greg’s take on talking trees.)

Matt: [SPOILER] Yeah, I don’t see Coldfire in a leadership role. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 11:09:08 am EDT from 86.160.27.155

Chapter 8> [SPOILER] The Second in Command thing has been on my mind as well. On the one hand, Brooklyn is highly qualified and capable. On the other, he's now older and his priorities might've shifted a bit. From his perspective, he stopped being Second for 40 years essentially. It might have even been a shock to him to return and still be expected to fulfill that role. I do think he will eventually step down. However, I don't think that is going to happen for a bit yet. I think we are starting to see the beginnings of it, but things will get a bit easier for Brooklyn when Goliath returns to the clan. He'll have some time to reflect and then he might have that discussion with Goliath.

As for who might be called on to be Second? Angela does seem the obvious choice. Partially through her own merits and partially through lack of other options. As I've said, Coldfire is totally growing on me as a character and I want to see her role in the clan expand more, but I don't see that being as a leader, but rather more as a spiritual advisor or priestess. The one who presides over ceremonies (like the Commitment Ceremony and Wind Ceremony) and keeps traditions alive (like whatever gargoyles do when its time for eggs to hatch). I can't see Coldstone, Broadway, Lex, (or Gnash yet!) in the role of Second, so I'm thinking Angela when the time comes. [/SPOILER]

Not much to add to the "Avalon" discussion except to wonder what would've happened had the Archmage+ taken over the island as he planned. The Sisters never seemed to know about that part of his plan and once it would've happened, they surely would've informed Oberon. The battle between Oberon and the Archmage+ would've been fascinating and fairly epic, I believe.
Matt
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 10:08:11 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

ED - Some good remarks on that alternate "Gargoyles" where they really were the last of their kind. I remember, a few years ago, seeing a comment from someone who thought that they should have gone that route, and who cited "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" to back up his argument. I'm not sure, though, that the Turtles are the best example; they were portrayed as originally ordinary turtles turned into mutants, rather than the remnant of an ancient species with a long history, its own culture and world-view, etc. They'd be more analogous to the Mutates than to the gargoyles themselves. (Tolkien's Ents, as I mentioned in a previous post, would be a stronger analogy. If Goliath or any of the other Manhattan clan had read "The Lord of the Rings", I wonder what they'd have made of the Ents. It feels all the more appropriate to bring them up here, incidentally, since one of Tolkien's inspirations for coming up with them was a wish to do the Birnam Wood scene in "Macbeth" the way he felt it ought to have been done - although, of course, that's one part of "Macbeth" that didn't make it into "City of Stone".)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 8:39:41 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I'm a little late with the discussion in regards to the Avalon Trilogy, but it was pretty clear to me that it was the Weird Sisters who were the primary antagonists, the ones manipulating things by acting as the subservient. Meanwhile the Archmage was the primary threat of the trilogy but acted merely as the Heavy (the central character that drives the conflict of the story), because he was only a tool to the Triplets' schemes.

The difference between the two I think was well summed-up by a quote from The Order of the Stick, where the heroes' wizard companion has their borrowed magical power quite literally beaten out of them by the main villain, a lich sorcerer.

"You seem to have an interest in power, so let me educate you a little while I search for you. It's sort of this thing I like to do sometimes, especially for learned wizards such as yourself. Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE. If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?"

And that's the key difference between the Weird Sisters and the Archmage; it doesn't matter that he's nigh-omnipotent and wielding the Three Keys of Power because all it takes to strip that away from him and trigger his undoing is a lucky grab to the bauble he wears on his forehead. Meanwhile the Weird Sisters, like all of the Third Race, are magic and are fighting in the bastion of that magic.

Though for the sake of irony, both the lich and the Weird Sisters are beaten but not defeated by use of cleverness rather than trying to match power with power. The lich's phylactery is stolen because he's too busy playing with his food to make the kill and the Sisters are lured to one of the few sources of cold iron where their weakness can be exploited.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 6:50:49 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

[SPOILER]
I think what bugs me most about the exposition dumps is that it feels like Greg suddenly trusts his audience less than he did in the 1990s, or even in the SLG days. I understand the desire to build the fan base, and the need to hand-hold to some extent...and if the sales numbers and the data Dynamite gathers show that this strategy is working, then fine, I'm all for it, if it keeps giving us the gift of new Gargoyles stories at this level of quality (because overall, the stories have been really strong). But the original show was fairly serialized for its day, and it was targeted at ten-year-old children, and if a kid missed an episode, there was no way back then to see it until it reran months later...and yet, the show never did this type of information dumping. There was an implicit trust in the intelligence of the audience, which I (as a ten-year-old at the time) really appreciated. In contrast, the Dynamite comic is presumably targeted at a slightly older and more sophisticated audience, and the entire original show is now easily available on Disney+. It would be easy, when necessary, to just add a footnote saying, "See Season 1 Episode 13 'Reawakening'" in classic comics fashion, without going through these narrative contortions to rehash old plot lines. I don't know; like I said, I can see both sides of it. If this kind of thing is truly necessary to bring people on board, and it's working, then fine, I can deal with it. But as someone who was intelligent enough as a ten-year-old to not need this kind of spoon-feeding to keep me interested in the property, those pages are aggravating.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 4:27:51 am EDT from 24.46.160.140

#8: [SPOILER] Sorry for the double.

Didn't super mind the two page spread showcasing Coldfire's backstory. I think it's just to outline more about who she is. I kinda wish there was more *new* information here, beyond the sort of subtle nod to her spirituality, but there's gotta be a balance somewhere I guess.

I think that's an interesting thought on the second in command, Ed. It honestly feels like Brooklyn's just grown out of the role. He's older than Goliath, and really fundamentally he's lost the trust of the clan I think. So he either has to make an effort to reclaim it, or pass the title off to someone else. And I think Angela or Broadway or even like... Coldfire are good choices. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 4:26:59 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

Ed: No, no, the *pacing* is perfect. I have no complaints about the pacing. And if there's one thing I don't think *anyone* can clock about a Greg Weisman show, it's the attention to detail and the pacing. They're almost always spot on. Things just *flow* perfectly.

I'm gonna try and break this down, because I feel like I'm not explaining myself very well (and I think sometimes it sounds like I'm criticizing the show when I'm really just observing things), and I'm enjoying this discussion and analyzing these old shows. I do not take issue that the three Avalon parts are a delineated triptych. I think that's a fine structure for the story. In fact it's an excellent structure for the story. Let me try and go into detail here.

Part 1: Part 1 I think is the strongest part of the story in of itself. The structure's pretty clean here. A character from Goliath's past appears asking for help, a foe from his past has returned and they need his help battling him. Interestingly, this is a common sort of genre story trope, the past catching up with the lead. It pops up in anime a lot. But usually when you use it, there's some sort of nostalgic pain associated with it. Which isn't really the case here. More on that in part 2.

The flashback story that runs parallel here, though is fantastic. The stakes are clear. They are carrying around 36 Gargoyle eggs and they need to make sure they survive and thrive. Tom is made guardian of the eggs, and Katharine has promised to care for them. The Magus is carrying around a bunch of guilt from turning Goliath and the others to stone, so he's got a lot invested in what's going on here too. He feels responsible. And the whole episode carries this through really clearly. Right down to "you have 36 very good reasons to obey then" quote from Constantine. The eggs are in danger. We need to save the eggs. Clear focus. Awesome.

The whole final sequence is great too. They use magic and trickery to dupe Constantine and they run away. The whole Magus/Katharine scene where they decide to run away to Avalon is amazing, and the Magus is pretty sexy when he says "then I will take you beyond them". And even though it's in the third act, needing to give up the Grimorum to go to Avalon with Katharine is a beautiful moment and works as a second act twist of sorts. Even though, logically the Magus should go with Finella because he can actually use the Grimorum and can use it to protect her, and Mary should probably not abandon her son for what I think are flimsy, arbitrary reasons. I find this more amusing than anything, though. And really, the Magus wants to be with the woman he loves and look after the eggs he's sworn to help protect. It's not logical, the script doesn't address it, but it makes a ton of sense and is really quite profound and beautiful in it's own way. Sometimes it's okay for the viewer to do the lifting. I'm fine with it.

So the whole first episode, despite having lots of characters and being really ambitious is great. Clear focus on the leads (Tom, Magus, Katharine), clear journey for the characters. Part 1 ends with revealing the Avalon Clan, cool.

Part 2 is where things kinda slip a bit. Largely because this is where it becomes apparent to me that there is just too many things going on. The story comes back to Goliath, and Goliath is the lead, there should be things happening to Goliath here, but there isn't. There's just no real tension. Goliath is happy the 36 eggs survived, he's happy to see the Magus, Katharine and Tom alive and well. There's no tension between him and the Magus, there's no tension between him and Katharine. All is forgiven. Goliath has nowhere to go emotionally or spiritually or anything, he just has to deal with the vague existential threat posed by the Archmage, who wants to kill them all but isn't in a rush to do it so there isn't a lot of tension there.

The strongest emotional beats are the Elisa/Magus stuff. And Elisa is really just out of her depth in this episode. She has no real investment in anything that's happening other than that she cares about Goliath (which is a nice motivation, but not a strong one, not a personal one), but she works as a nice foil so the Magus can basically explain how he's unfulfilled because Katharine and Tom got together and how his guilt over casting the spell on the Wyvern Clan left him kinda broken. There's not enough time to really go into it, they need to get to the next plot beat, but it's powerful stuff, and the scenes where they need to work together to awaken Arthur are great too.

The Archmage stuff is a lot of fun, extremely necessary and also extremely perfunctory. It doesn't really tie into any themes, it's really just 10 minutes of justifying how the Archmage is alive again. Which? Absolutely fine. Great design, great actor, threatening villain. Perfect. And the time travel stuff is just enough fun that I think it succeeds in justifying how he's alive again without making it feel like the writers are cheating or cheapening death. This is a specific circumstance.

Part 3 is kind of just a big wrap up. The battle with Demona and MacBeth is the weakest thing I think. They're just puppets. There's a tiny attempt to free them from the Weird Sister's control, but it goes nowhere and ultimately they just beat them in a fight. Goliath forces the Weird Sisters to release them. Rather than any sort of revelation or twist or anything. Is that okay? Probably. There's no time for Demona and MacBeth to have another epiphany here at all. But I find it kind of weak that the really strong arcs they had built up in City of Stone kind of fizzle out here. And then in Sanctuary they've just moved on to new plots really. But for Avalon, it's fine. Not a huge flaw, but kind of unfortunate.

The Weird Sisters-Magus stuff comes to a head here. I've decided the Weird Sisters are just kind of the main antagonists of the piece really. They're the ones who have a really strong motivation to get rid of the mortals squatting on Avalon. They're the ones who *HATE* the Magus and want to dispose of him, and the feeling is absolutely mutual. I know, and I wasn't around for this, but I get the feeling at some point there was a sentiment among some fans that the Weird Sisters kind of just... turn out to be these petty hags? When City of Stone puts on airs that they're these incredible, celestial cerebral beings. I kinda get that, I think that's a legit criticism of sorts, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Vengeance is petty and largely a waste of time (A "Sucker's game", yes?), but it can also be very profound and emotional and personal. MacBeth succeeding his throne through killing Duncan is a cathartic, powerful, emotional moment even if it ultimately is a hollow victory. The Captain choosing to break the Megalith Dance and stop Hakon is an act of vengeance in a way, but he did it for the right reasons and he redeems himself in doing so. Helps Goliath.

The confrontation between the Magus and the Weird Sisters is great. And extremely powerful, I wish there were more immediate stakes here, something on the line, but King Arthur isn't even in the hollow hill anymore. So it's just a battle. But the Magus's sacrifice to finally trap them and defeat them is strong. A good end for his arc where he gives up his life to make up for his failures and save the island and the Avalon Clan is really bittersweet and emotionally impactful.

So yeah, as I kind of outlined before, I think the Weird Sisters were the real threat. They were the ones who truly made the Archmage, they were the ones who enabled his plan to succeed, and as soon as they'd taken the island they very likely would have turned on him. Either by ratting him out to Oberon or dealing with him themselves. At least that's my take on it. The Archmage was more or less just a tool to them.

Then the Archmage and Goliath's battle happens, and Goliath (with Angela's help) wins. The Archmage is done in by his lust for power because he cannot control the Grimorum Arcanorum. Hoist by his own petard so to speak. I'm not sure it's a profound or particularly powerful end for him and it's not a strong or overt theme of the story outside of a brief line where the Archmage comments that "The Fool has given up the source of his power". Though I do have to admit thinking about it, it's a very powerful *subtle* theme (showcased with Katharine and Finella giving up their titles and the Magus giving up the Grimorum, vs. Constantine and the Archmage doing everything they can to obtain it). But the Archmage is a relatively minor villain, and it's an effective, cool moment. So it's fine.

Then the rest of the episode is mostly just wrap up. There's a lot of plot to wrap up and cover. All of it very necessary. So another kind of long exposition drop is needed. It doesn't drag and it does it's job, but doesn't leave a *ton* of time for any emotional beats, and poor Angela doesn't ever really get a strong motive or reason to come along with Goliath other than that they fought alongside each other to beat the Archmage. It's fine to a point, this isn't *really* Angela's story outside of her clan being the focus (going back to "36 reasons"). And if there was a great World Tour episode which really exemplified Angela's character (something along the lines of "Long Way to Morning" or "Deadly Force") I don't think this would bother me as much as it does.

Now primarily, the issue I outlined is that Goliath does not have a strong internal arc or emotional story here, while the Magus does. Is it a problem that the Magus has a really strong emotional arc, and Goliath doesn't? Not necessarily. Certainly as those of us who watched Young Justice season 4 and rambled/discussed it together, sometimes just because someone's the main character doesn't mean that the story has to belong to the main character. Kaldur doesn't have much of an arc in the 4 episode Atlantis arc, while Orm absolutely does. That worked fine there. Does it work here?

For me? I think it's apparent Goliath really SHOULD have a strong arc in this story. He's the lead of the show, and this is very much a story in his wheelhouse. With lots of characters he knows and should have really strong feelings about. But he doesn't, I think largely to keep him in this sort of stoic heroic space, he doesn't have any complicated or hard feelings about the Magus, or about abandoning the eggs for Katharine to deal with, and while it surprises him that the Avalon Clan follow so many human traditions, it doesn't bother him in any overt way.

Frankly, it's something Hunter's Moon, I think, *deliberately* goes out of it's way to iterate and course correct on, Greg compared Hunter's Moon to City of Stone at one point and how that wasn't really Goliath's story, but I think it applies here to a large extent too.

Is that me wanting the show to be something it isn't? I don't think so. I'm basically saying the main character doesn't have a strong internal, emotional arc. I think that's a legitimate criticism made in good faith. I don't hate the episode as a result, I don't think the people behind it are untalented, or that they dropped the ball even or anything, I just think the things I outlined are flaws that are worth discussing in detail. Not necessarily arguing about or taking personally, just talking about. I think it's fun.

And to be clear, I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with any of this, or feel the way I do. But I hope my perspective is appreciated and that people think it's something worth talking about. And I hope it's clear there's *A LOT* about the Avalon 3 parter I think is extremely well done, emotionally impactful and well worth revisiting.

...hopefully, because this post wound up being *really* *really* long.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 4:17:53 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

Chip: Ahh, you’re right, thanks. What a goof.

Craig: [SPOILER] I don’t mind the info dumps - they’re not my favourite but I figure it’s the cost of doing business in terms of reintroducing the series after such a long break, and we’re getting fewer of them now - but I do wonder why Coldfire’s backstory was needed right now. I kind of liked #1’s approach: “trust me, that’s all you really need to know” so there are two possible explanations: one, that it was Coldfire’s turn to narrate and so at this point we needed to understand who she was; or two, the Coldtrio’s backstory is about to come into play somehow. Almost certainly it's (1) but it'll be fun if it turns out to be (2). [/SPOILER]

Greg: [SPOILER] I read it as a bazooka instead of a pipe bomb from the way she was holding it and the smoke. (Although personally I found the intent of the panels tracks clearly irrespective of the specifics.) [/SPOILER]

Todd: I think it would be possible to do a series where the gargoyles were the last of their kind (the Archie TMNT series did a great arc during which Raphael reflects on the fact that they’re the only mutant turtles). I think it could even be quite moving and I think Greg would do a good job. But it would be much darker and, fundamentally, not ‘Gargoyles’ as we know and love it which is fundamentally optimistic, while tempered by realism and tragedy. It would be something different and less rich.
(Also - great news about your library).

Phoenician: Great comments but in particular I think that’s a very perceptive and important point about “Avalon”. In many ways, it’s the most important story told yet because it completely changes everything we’ve come to assume since “Awakening”.

#8 speculation question:
[SPOILER] Are Brooklyn’s difficulties with leadership presaging him handing over being second-in-command to someone else? Originally, the hope was to hand over the second slot to the next generation but Brooklyn is now older than Goliath. Of course, the clan is much larger now. Also, Brooklyn may feel that not just being older but being in a position of command might damage his ability to continue rebuilding his relationship with Broadway and Lex (I don’t see why it would but he might perceive that to be the case).

At present, I’m not sure who else would take over.

I think Angela would do a good job and is the most likely - she’s intelligent, tenacious, has good judgment, now has had a year to acclimatise to Manhattan (which is roughly as much as Brooklyn had) and apparently was the second on Avalon. She has to be the leading contender.

We don’t know enough about Katana to make a judgment and she’s, seemingly, the same age as Brooklyn. Elisa would make sense but I’m not sure if others would accept a human second or whether it would even be practical given her career.

However, for an outside shot I don't see people mentioning - Broadway. Note that he's made two big judgment calls (of Xanatos in #3 and of Antoinette in #6) so far although arguably he hasn't 'managed' Brooklyn well. I feel like he's grown up since "Upgrade" but perhaps may still see himself more as a lone detective than the leader of the clan.

I will say that I'll be sad if Brooklyn steps down in a way. I was incredibly impressed by his rescue plan in #6 in which I think he really displayed his strategic mind. Of course, Goliath's choice derailed the plan but that wasn't a failure of Brooklyn's. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Fri, Aug 4, 2023 3:30:07 am EDT from 86.160.27.155

Looking at some of the upcoming covers while doing my preorders...

[SPOILER]
It looks like the Fleecs/Forstner covers are going to be a continuing picture when put side by side starting with #9. That should be fun.

Dark Ages #3 appears to involve Demona chained up, as depicted on two covers. Interesting parallel to Goliath's current situation in 1997.

Based on the Nakayama cover, it appears we may be getting Broadway and Angela's commitment ceremony in #11.

The Kenya Danino cover for Dark Ages #4 hints that those who suspected we would be seeing a dragon were on to something... Meanwhile, Erica Henderson's cover seemingly alludes to those mysterious gargoyle engravings in the Archmage's cave.

Lucio Parrillo's cover for #11 depicts Angela in a medieval setting, which I'm assuming was just a cool stylistic choice that has nothing to do with the story, but it looks great.

A variant cover of the Gargoyles Halloween Special depicts Demona, although again, it's unclear if this actually reflects the story...but it is interesting.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 9:28:32 pm EDT from 173.229.64.0

CRAIG - Hadn't thought that about "Gummi Bears", but it's a good point. Of course, the show's more comedic tone might have it less likely that the audience would immediately contemplate potential extinction of the leads. (I think it says a lot about the difference between the two shows that the reason why there were so few Gummis left was that most of them had fled overseas - though the flashback to their doing so was effectively poignant - while the reason why there were so few gargoyles left was that most of them had been slaughtered.)

Incidentally, I found out today that the Phoenix Public Library has pre-ordered five copies of the "Gargoyles: Here in Manhattan" trade paperback (with one of those copies going to my local branch). I'd say it bodes well for the Dynamite comic that the library pre-ordered that many copies of its first trade paperback. (I'll be purchasing a copy when it gets published, of course, to help the series, but I'm still delighted that the public library's going to get some.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 8:33:06 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Greg B >
[SPOILER]
Yeah, it makes sense that they wouldn't have left a gaping hole in the side of Rikers for days. I'm sure that plate went up pretty quickly.

That would be one large pipe bomb in proportion to Hyena's hand, no? And do pipe bombs smoke? (I don't want to do too much googling on this because I'm afraid of ending on a watch list.)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 4:08:56 pm EDT from 24.46.160.62

Okay, double-checked Gargoyles #8, this was easier to see on my phone with guided view.

[SPOILER] The hole Brooklyn made in the side of the prison was covered with a steel plate. I think the tube we see Hyena holding is a pipe bomb. And Wolf is digging through the wall, and then Jackal finishes the job with a particle beam. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 2:43:42 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Todd > This was something I often thought about on Gargoyles's spiritual predecessor Gummi Bears. The main characters would occasionally lament how they were the last ones of their species (although there was the possibility of the Great Gummis retuning to make it a little less bleak, and there were other occasional scattered gummis who would pop up). But I always wondered: where were Cubbi and Sunni and Tummi's parents? All three all relatively young; had they all their parents died already? Also, whereas all the other Disney Afternoon episodes did the occasional episode focused on a love plot, Gummi Bears never could (or at least, it would have been very difficult). Ultimately, there's something very depressing at the core of that show, realizing that the Gummi Glen clan may not last beyond these characters.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 11:42:33 am EDT from 24.46.161.42

PHOENICIAN - Yes, I think that the revelation that the eggs had survived (and, in the course of the Avalon World Tour, that other gargoyle clans had survived elsewhere in the world) was a crucial moment in the series.

Until "Avalon Part One", I hadn't given the eggs much thought, in fact. I remember Greg Weisman, in his ramble on "Awakening Part Two" asking whether, once we found out the truth about Xanatos, we reconsidered his claim that the eggs were gone; in my case, the revelation about him didn't lead to that, since we knew independent of him that the gargoyles had been in stone sleep for a thousand years. So I assumed that the eggs had long since hatched, and the gargoyles hatched from them lived out their lives and passed on. I hadn't taken into account the possibility of a place like Avalon where time flowed at a different pace. Of course, now it becomes obvious that the eggs would have to have returned, since why else would they have been mentioned earlier (complete with the scene in "City of Stone Part One" where we see Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom loading them up in the cart and departing the castle with them)?

I've sometimes speculated whether the series would have worked as well if they'd gone for the idea that Goliath, Hudson, the trio, Bronx, and Demona were indeed the only gargoyles left - with maybe Coldstone and Thailog added in later (and a different reason given for the Weird Sisters to involve themselves in Demona and Macbeth's lives, since "City of Stone" was far too good a story to lose). And I concluded that while it might have made the series simpler, it would have led to some drawbacks. Having your species irrevocably doomed to extinction can provide some effective tragic drama, but the sort that I think would be better suited to a single story, like a book or a movie, to a television series. (For a good example of that, I suggest "The Lord of the Rings", where the non-human "speaking-peoples" of Middle-earth know that their time is ending, no matter how the war with Sauron goes - especially with the Ents, who are also permanently estranged from the females of their species, if in a different manner than that of Goliath with Demona.) I do remember bringing up this question here many years ago, and one poster (I forget whom) admitted that, in that scenario, we could have gotten some powerful stories with the trio realizing that there wouldn't ever be anyone for them. (Mind you, I suspect that the Disney higher-ups would have argued for the show not dwelling on that element, as too gloomy for the Disney Afternoon.) But I think that the revelation that there were other gargoyles out there, that the species had the possibility of survival (if not an easy one), gave a necessary sense of something for the gargoyles to strive for (beyond just doing the regular "patrol the city at night and fight crime").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 9:33:16 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER]
One thing I noted in this issue that I hadn’t given a ton of thought to before is that Coldfire is incapable of any facial expressions, which is an interesting challenge for the artist when she is the emotional core of a scene. On TV, at least the character would have the expressiveness of CCH Pounder’s performance, but here, George simply has to find different angles on the character that appear to give her some level of expressiveness even though her face isn’t actually changing at all.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 8:38:12 am EDT from 107.123.49.37

Assorted takeaways for #8, "Mayday" -- [SPOILER] As we close in on the final issues for this arc, even when a character is not necessarily in the center of the action, all the different perspectives from the various narrations have been effective to demonstrate where everyone stands, well, here in Manhattan.

Only a few days since Brooklyn's rescue attempt, so it makes sense to see the hole in the prison wall before the Pack attacks. So Wolf's panel with the rubble and Jackal's firing some projectile are creating an additional breach at some other part of Rikers. Jackal and Hyena do clarify that there are multiple explosions distracting the prison staff, so that all adds up fine for me.

Dracon's shocked face after hearing Wolf's bit of news that Dino doesn't care if Tony makes it out alive or not after taking care of Brod really does demonstrate how quickly things have gone south following the first time we saw Antoinette visit him.

Speaking of Brod, the man does not blink even when he's about to become the proverbial fish-in-a-barrel. It's a subtle detail that further contrasts that Tony might not have been cut out for this line of work (or, at least, not cut out for it once undercover cops, gargoyles, turf wars, and despotic uncles entered the fold).

Coldstone, Coldfire, and Coldsteel (and their pre-massacre bodies) continue to be iconic designs. Here's hoping after they release Coldstone that the NECA line remains successful enough to see the others!

Fingers crossed for NECA Pack figures as well. Post-Upgrade accessories for Jackal and Hyena have endless possibilities that we can speculate about.

Considering Goliath could take off his entire barred cell wall moments after getting tased, I have a hunch that he probably could have gotten out of those shackles on his own too. Of course, the time it would take to snap them would likely have robbed him of any element of surprise.

Maybe its the mutual Clancy Brown casting, but after this latest defeat, I can almost anticipate Wolf utter a Rhino-esque "I hate you. So much." to Goliath should we see him locked up in a nearby prison cell in the next issue or two.

Humbling Renqvist (that hopefully lays the pipe for some personal growth) was certainly an unanticipated, but welcomed development. The reactions and comments from Renqvist, Tony, and Tomas just solidified the scene for me as nothing less than momentous for this arc. I continue to be on the edge of my seat for Goliath's hearing. [/SPOILER]

Ed and Todd: Happy to return the favor to this Comment Room. I for one have definitely picked up a recommendation (or three) from here over the years :)

Three Races: Knowing that gargates (not necessarily Gargoyles and Beasts) date to Pangea, and humanity's recorded history is roughly the last 12,000 years out of the 3 million-odd that Homo Sapiens have been around (and who knows what branch of homininians marked the introduction of humans as the Second of the Three Races), I can see the early Children of Mab making their presence known to their mortal neighbors during any span of time between when gargoyles-as-we-would-recognize-them first became ascendant to that point of time when humans would have begun to consider many of them gods in their various pantheons. And yes, that is a *massive* span of time (and largely undefined since we don't have much more detail to distinguish the first gargate species to the modern, surviving branches of gargoyles), but it does make add to the context that the Third Race, are in fact, 'children' in the grand scheme of things.

(And no, I didn't forget about the Lost Race. But that's a speculation for another day.)

The three-parter "Avalon" is overflowing with themes of vengeance and fate, but the real gift it gives the show as a whole moving forward is hope (which I know isn't the same as grace. Sorry Phoebe). Characters long since considered dead (save for a flashback) are not only suddenly revealed to be alive (a wonderful twist on our intro's "We live again!"), but we witness that contrition and rehabilitation for the Magus and Princess Katharine, summed up in Goliath's last interaction with the sorcerer that cursed his clan, by emphasizing that, for all his actions, the Magus saved and raised the Wyvern eggs. I love the additional Scottish history, the Archmage's antics, and (you all know I love) the time travel, but the hope Goliath experiences and shares with the Manhattan Clan in "The Gathering" (beautifully summed up with Hudson's "We're not the last. We're not alone") stand as some of my favorite moments in the whole series.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Aug 3, 2023 2:47:49 am EDT from 68.2.64.232

Ed> Gargoyles evolved before humans. That’s why they’re the “First Race”. “Gargoyles, humans, and Oberon’s Children.” In that order.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"Become a writer; you can be petty." ~~Roshni Chokski
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 11:24:56 pm EDT from 174.209.228.51

ED - The timing of your thoughts on gargoyle migrations in prehistory and early history felt particularly apt; the local PBS station has been recently re-airing a series called "First Peoples" about how humans settled in every continent in prehistoric times. Your post reminded me of that.

An interesting theory on Atlantis being a gargoyle homeland on the scale you speculated on. That would certainly make it a very different take from conventional versions - including Plato's - which generally depicted the Atlanteans as humans. (Of course, humans might have taken over Atlantis from the gargoyles before its downfall.)

And an interesting theory on the noise the Manhattan clan made upon awakening. (Presumably they weren't too worried about the New Yorkers overhearing them, while they were way up on the clock tower or - later - the castle battlements. One good reason to perch on high places.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 7:55:10 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

More thoughts on #8:

[SPOILER]
Only three days have gone by since Goliath's arrest. Which makes sense, I suppose, given that the action has been relatively continuous for the past five issues.

I particularly like the closeup on Goliath's eye when he's waking up, with the light from his eye coming through the stone as it starts to fracture.

Do Kambadais's Dracon and Brod feel a tad off to anyone else this issue? I felt his drawings of them in prior issues were dead-on, but here a bit less so.

Like Matt, I'm also a bit confused by the Pack action on page 4. I thought that the middle tier was Goliath's hands with the stone shards falling off (Matt interprets this panel as Wolf digging). But I'm really not sure about the first panel with Hyena holding some sort of smoke-making device (maybe?). It is mentioned later that the Pack have set up explosions throughout the facility somehow, so perhaps Hyena is firing some sort of cannon that implanted the incendiary devices on/in/around the building? Usually Kambadais's art very clearly lays out what is going on, but this is a rare instance where it doesn't quite come across.

Kambadais's drawings of the Pack look just great. Completely captures the personalities (as does the writing, naturally).

While I liked parts of Coldfire's narration a lot (particularly the line about bringing back knowledge to the land of the living), I am getting weary of these long exposition dumps eight issues in, still. I get the necessity of it, but it really grinds the story to a halt. The SLG run never featured this much exposition after the first issue. There must be a more elegant way of getting this information out. I'm also not entirely sure why Coldfire was the narrator of the issue, as she isn't involved in the action at all. I guess Greg just felt an explanation of these two members of the clan and their history for new readers was overdue.

Speaking of the expository double-page spread, the Guided View feature has a few panels sequenced in the wrong order.

It's fun having two Clancy Brown characters in the same scene again, although they don't really interact.

Goliath just tearing the prison gate right out the wall and whacking Jackal with it is pretty gnarly.

Thank you to Bishansky for correcting my incorrect supposition earlier today that the soundless Goliath/Wolf fight was an error (and thanks also to Greg Weisman, who I'm assuming confirmed this for Bishansky). Interesting stylistic choice. The art certainly carries it.

I love Tony's "big swing" line, and nicknaming Goliath "G." It's fun to see him actually a little impressed with Goliath, but also still his usual smooth-talking self (I definitely had no problem hearing Richard Grieco on that line).

I believe this is the final Amanda Conner cover we're going to be getting, based on the solicitations. Too bad. This one is a nice way to go out, with Elisa looking great as usual, cuddling with Bronx and eating Chinese. I'm very excited to receive my physical copy.

And looking forward to Goliath's night in court! Very interested to see what this hearing will look like. This is going to be a really pivotal moment with vast repercussions for the story going forward, I suspect.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 6:29:56 pm EDT from 24.46.162.90

One thing I've been wondering about the new issue.

[SPOILER] The growing estrangement of the Trio. When did it really begin? I mean, I know it's progressive, but it's been build in so subtly that I really struggle to think of a transition point where they went from "Three Musketeers" to borderline estranged.

Evidently since the beginning of "Here in Manhattan", the division has been there - Elisa comments on it in "A Little Crazy".

Going back to "Clan-Building", we get Brooklyn's "sweet sorrow" moment but the Trio do have a moment as a team in "Masque" and "Bash". However, even then Brooklyn is struggling with his jealousy.

Before that? They were at each other's throats in "Turf". In "Kingdom", Brooklyn really had to stand alone so we go back to "Upgrade" where they were bickering but, essentially, harmlessly.

I think it's an amazing piece of writing that this arc has gone so far and yet, thinking back, I really couldn't precisely say "this is the beginning." [/SPOILER]


Matt: [SPOILER] The idea of Coldstone seeing Goliath and Elisa as an "inconsequential kinky fling" made me laugh. [/SPOILER]

The different forms of awakening are really interesting - season 1 awakenings being more gentle than S2. I guess it was a behind-the-scenes decision to make the awakenings more dramatic but I wonder if there's an in-universe cause for it. Perhaps, given the tensions in Wyvern, the gargoyles were conditioned to temper their wake-ups so as not to scare the local populace. However, in Manhattan, they no longer had to worry and went back to their natural instinct to roar themselves awake.

[SPOILER] The potential acronym is fascinating. Super spot. [/SPOILER]

I'm intrigued by the idea the gargoyles started from the Americas but if they headed west, London (even Europe) is a long way off.

I'd have thought if the dragon-like features originated in Asia - which benefits from secure mountains but also fertile land with people to protect - you could imagine them heading both west to Europe and east across the land bridge.

My hunch would be more that gargoyle evolution mirrored human evolution in West Europe with the native Scots being pushed back into the Celtic fringes while European gargoyles would have come over particularly from Rome and Greece - the "selective breeding" of gargoyles would have taken a long time to manage something as diverse as Leo and Una (and my bigger confusion is, with limited numbers and presumably interbreeding, surely you'd quickly end up with gargoyles that were a mix of features.

One thing that might be interesting to consider is prevailing wind currents. Gargoyles wouldn't be able to glide across oceans but if any explorers ever aimed to cross the Atlantic, it would make sense to have gargoyles to scout for land - and if ships were ever in distress, a gargoyle with good currents would have a lot better chance of reaching land than a human. From Europe, the prevailing winds would likely make it easier to reach Central America than elsewhere. But then we consider, from Atlantis, if it's in the Atlantic...?

I've wondered, linked to the name "Gorlois" being Atlantean and the praying gargoyle originating in Atlantis, if they originated in Atlantis which potentially could be a gargoyle civilisation - not just a civilisation with gargoyles, I mean an island with potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of gargoyles and potentially no significant human presence. An island that is completely cut off could create a distinct evolutionary eco-system that could foster gargoyles and beasts and yet if they developed the capacity to travel across oceans, you could have gargoyles dealing with and settling across Europe and the Americas. We've only ever seen gargoyles in small clans... a whole civilisation of gargoyles would be intriguing. Did they still protect back then or was this an adaptive feature from after their home sank and they travelled to other places? What would they be protecting? And against whom? And was the loss of Atlantis a sign they failed?

One thing that's always confused me is the chronology of the three races though. I'm not sure at what point you consider humans to have truly emerged but if gargoyles were more recent and evolved separately that makes me think there must have been some separate eco-system away from humans such as Atlantis. But the really weird one is Oberon's Children.

If we assume they emerged 240,000 years ago - still early in the journey towards modern humans - they've only been alive 10,000 Avalon years and some of them are, as far as we can tell, thousands of years old. I suppose that makes sense insofar as they're immortal but it does seem strange and I wonder if we'll get insight in future into how and how often Oberon's Children have pureblood children and the history of the race.

Greg: [SPOILER] Good shout - forgot about that. And yeah, I feel a Trio/Faux-Trio smackdown would be too much fun. [/SPOILER]

Alex: Yeah, I see the perspective. For me, the pacing worked fine - I would have loved to have the cut Belvedere Castle Archmage scene and others but I actually found the pacing of all three spot-on.

Also, I know "City of Stone" is incredibly ambitious in its own right, but the scale of "Avalon" is really immense and yet for something so intricate, it wears that complexity very lightly. The scale of it, the ambition, drawing in history and mythology and swathes of continuity and stitching it together. I can't imagine how turgid and overburdened something this epic could be with a different creator but "Avalon" flits from one thing to the next, has some of the best arcs in the show, one of my favourite villains and even characters like Finella are incredibly precisely and wonderfully drawn even with just a handful of lines... and yet as a viewer, I never remember feeling anything but enthralled.

And, to boot, "Avalon" Part Two especially low-key reuses a bunch of animation so it was ticking boxes for Greg's "producer" hat too. I know it's not as showy as "City of Stone" or as iconic as "Awakening" or as beautifully-drawn as "Hunter's Moon". That's not really what it's for. And I accept it might not work for everyone for one reason or another. But just as a writing exercise... it's... well...

I think it's pretty miraculous.

(Not as underrated as "The Gathering" though.)
Ed
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 3:09:46 pm EDT from 86.160.27.155

Sorry for the double (or really triple, don't know what happened there) post!

Ed> "I can't remember if I saw it suggested here or just imagined the speculation that non-heraldic gargoyles were smashed leading to an extreme selective breeding for heraldic qualities but that makes it work a little better for me"
- Yeah, that was an idea of mine to explain why they look so different. The fact that gargates in Scotland were so nearby and different also made me suspect something else: I think gargoyles originated in the Americas. Some went west and eventually got to Europe where their descendants are the London Clan. Others spread East and came to Atlantis (inspiring the design of the Praying Gargoyle). Scottish gargoyles were something of a colony of Atlantean gargoyles, or were descendents of the survivors of Atlantis' fall. Anyway, that might explain why two groups of gargoyles (and maybe more when we see the Loch Ness Clan) were so diverse in the UK: it became a mixing pot for gargoyles coming towards it from different directions.

Anyway, I personally love M.I.A., but I hear and appreciate your criticisms and perspective as a native.
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 12:04:42 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Good morning!

My thoughts on Chapter 8. As usual, I've talked to no one else about this story yet so that my thoughts are purely my own. I expect to have missed some things, but I look forward to discovering them soon enough. Without further ado...

[SPOILER] - The title: Mayday. Interesting. I think several other chapters showed more mayday than this. Perhaps Greg chose it for the in joke of literally pointing out a specific day in May. That first letter "M" should also be noted. Now we have AIMTRUEM.... "Aim true my lad"? "Aim true Magus"? Or are we all just losing it and this is pure coincidence...? All things are true.

- I was just thinking the other day that Coldfire has really been growing on me lately. I never thought too much of her during the 90s run, but a couple decades ago when Greg mused that she could be some sort of spiritual priestess that intrigued me. I love the gargoyles culture stuff. Sounds like we'll get more of that to come in Dark Ages. Meanwhile, she is our narrator and I was pleased to see it. I find her more and more interesting and fun.

- A lot of Coldstone dialogue in this one. Some really good stuff too. I love that he says that he loves Goliath. They've had a complicated history, so that is sweet to hear. And while he's very loyal to Goliath (and even misses his guidance and support) he doesn't get his choice to remain in prison or his trust of humans. I'd love to hear his thoughts on Goliath's relationship to Elisa. Maybe he just thinks of it as some inconsequential kinky fling. Also, the human-gargoyle Alliance is mentioned giving us that companion story feel with Dark Ages.

- Dracon calls Goliath a drama queen as he wakes. Can't argue with that. Note that in Season 1, with the exception of the first awakening after Xanatos moves the castle that all of the wake ups are quite calm and subdued. The stone skin is just kinda shrugged off. Only in Season 2 does that bursting from stone become standard. Not sure that has ever been brought up before, but its something I've noticed.

- The cut aways to the Pack while Dracon, Brod, and Renqvist (hey, he's got a name now!) are chatting confuse me a bit. Hyena is holding a tube? Not sure what that is. Wolf is digging? Not sure what that's about either. And why does Jackal need to blow a hole in the wall when the one Brooklyn made is still there?

- Renqvist is starting to come across as a bit sadistic with that shock collar. I was thinking he'd make a natural Quarryman down the line until his actions later in the chapter made he think less so. At the very least, I hope he quits using that thing.

- So the Pack is back onscreen for the first time in a while. I don't think we've seen more than two of them together at once since Grief. These three did get together in Phoenix, I suppose (and we learn that they fled against the might of the Manhattan Clan). Still, they seem weak in number. No Fox, Coyote, or Dingo. And they were put down well enough by Goliath alone. Pretty impressive, though maybe he's tapping into some pent up emotions. There seems to be an art error in that Hyena is shown in her old pre-upgrade costume when Coldfire battles her. Just thought I'd note that.

- I like that Slaughter and his men are putting the pieces together on the Cybot attack. And we learn how RECAP ad cybots were combined. They were stolen. I wonder how many of those wasp cybots can fit in a sinle shipping container. Anyway, not much to say about Murray yet, but Alphabet has an interesting name and seems pretty clever.

- We get the Coldtrio story in a nutshell. Notes of Commitment hint on what is to come. Notes of Reunion and Journey look backwards. Nothing groundbreaking, but nice to see even from someone who has those stories memorized. Coldstone episodes were always among my favorites (Reawakening, High Noon, and Possession in particular). Seems Coldfire is having the same thoughts that Goliath had in Nightwatch. The struggles, battles, and bad guys never seem to end.

- Wolf, perhaps unwisely, makes it clear that Dino might prefer Tony dead. Tony seems shocked. Maybe this is the beginning of a change of heart for Tony. We'll see. Also, him calling Goliath "G" is cute. Reminds me of Masque and Bash.

- I like how Goliath's whispering was done in his text bubbles. Maybe I just don't read enough comics, but I've not seen that before. And again, to Renqvist's credit he does the unthinkable and lets Goliath out so he can help. Makes me think of Renqvist's first episode actually when Fox was given the opportunity to escape when the Pack broke out of Riker's and instead chose to help the guard and stay just as Goliath does now. Will Goliath benefit as Fox did?

- We get our first look at Rosaria and Peter in a while. We learn that saving Ollie from the lake is how they met. Nice. We see the trio-masked men again. I know there's every reason to suspect that they are Dino, Glasses, and Joey. And I know they might want to keep their indentities hidden from the teenagers. But I still can't shake the feeling that there is something else we are missing here. And while we have not known Dino long, I can't see him using the phrase "co-inky-dink". I dunno.

- Back to the real Trio and we see them as never before. They squabbled and bickered in the past plenty, but this is the most tense I've ever seen the vibe between them. Even Coldfire wonders if the clan is salvageable. Yikes. I love this character stuff with the trio. It has been epic throughout Here In Manhattan. And so well done that even here I don't think any of them are wrong. Just different perspectives. We'll see how things get resolved over the next four chapters, assuming they do at all.

- And that's about it. Just like Chapter 7, I'm left feeling that we are laying a lot of groundwork here. A resolution to the Pack part of this, I think, but most of the stories just took a few steps forward here. I look forward to the next four chapters as we start wrapping these things up (for Here in Manhattan anyway!). I'm particularly excited for Goliath's hearing, Broadway and Angela's ceremony, the reconciliation (I hope!) of the Trio, and figuring out whatever Demona's up to (perhaps even revealing the three new keys of power!). [/SPOILER]

Looking forward to hearing what everyone else thought. And hey, Dark Ages Chapter 2 in less than a week! How lucky are we!?
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 11:37:45 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Good morning!

My thoughts on Chapter 8. As usual, I've talked to no one else about this story yet so that my thoughts are purely my own. I expect to have missed some things, but I look forward to discovering them soon enough. Without further ado...

[SPOILER] - The title: Mayday. Interesting. I think several other chapters showed more mayday than this. Perhaps Greg chose it for the in joke of literally pointing out a specific day in May. That first letter "M" should also be noted. Now we have AIMTRUEM.... "Aim true my lad"? "Aim true Magus"? Or are we all just losing it and this is pure coincidence...? All things are true.

- I was just thinking the other day that Coldfire has really been growing on me lately. I never thought too much of her during the 90s run, but a couple decades ago when Greg mused that she could be some sort of spiritual priestess that intrigued me. I love the gargoyles culture stuff. Sounds like we'll get more of that to come in Dark Ages. Meanwhile, she is our narrator and I was pleased to see it. I find her more and more interesting and fun.

- A lot of Coldstone dialogue in this one. Some really good stuff too. I love that he says that he loves Goliath. They've had a complicated history, so that is sweet to hear. And while he's very loyal to Goliath (and even misses his guidance and support) he doesn't get his choice to remain in prison or his trust of humans. I'd love to hear his thoughts on Goliath's relationship to Elisa. Maybe he just thinks of it as some inconsequential kinky fling. Also, the human-gargoyle Alliance is mentioned giving us that companion story feel with Dark Ages.

- Dracon calls Goliath a drama queen as he wakes. Can't argue with that. Note that in Season 1, with the exception of the first awakening after Xanatos moves the castle that all of the wake ups are quite calm and subdued. The stone skin is just kinda shrugged off. Only in Season 2 does that bursting from stone become standard. Not sure that has ever been brought up before, but its something I've noticed.

- The cut aways to the Pack while Dracon, Brod, and Renqvist (hey, he's got a name now!) are chatting confuse me a bit. Hyena is holding a tube? Not sure what that is. Wolf is digging? Not sure what that's about either. And why does Jackal need to blow a hole in the wall when the one Brooklyn made is still there?

- Renqvist is starting to come across as a bit sadistic with that shock collar. I was thinking he'd make a natural Quarryman down the line until his actions later in the chapter made he think less so. At the very least, I hope he quits using that thing.

- So the Pack is back onscreen for the first time in a while. I don't think we've seen more than two of them together at once since Grief. These three did get together in Phoenix, I suppose (and we learn that they fled against the might of the Manhattan Clan). Still, they seem weak in number. No Fox, Coyote, or Dingo. And they were put down well enough by Goliath alone. Pretty impressive, though maybe he's tapping into some pent up emotions. There seems to be an art error in that Hyena is shown in her old pre-upgrade costume when Coldfire battles her. Just thought I'd note that.

- I like that Slaughter and his men are putting the pieces together on the Cybot attack. And we learn how RECAP ad cybots were combined. They were stolen. I wonder how many of those wasp cybots can fit in a sinle shipping container. Anyway, not much to say about Murray yet, but Alphabet has an interesting name and seems pretty clever.

- We get the Coldtrio story in a nutshell. Notes of Commitment hint on what is to come. Notes of Reunion and Journey look backwards. Nothing groundbreaking, but nice to see even from someone who has those stories memorized. Coldstone episodes were always among my favorites (Reawakening, High Noon, and Possession in particular). Seems Coldfire is having the same thoughts that Goliath had in Nightwatch. The struggles, battles, and bad guys never seem to end.

- Wolf, perhaps unwisely, makes it clear that Dino might prefer Tony dead. Tony seems shocked. Maybe this is the beginning of a change of heart for Tony. We'll see. Also, him calling Goliath "G" is cute. Reminds me of Masque and Bash.

- I like how Goliath's whispering was done in his text bubbles. Maybe I just don't read enough comics, but I've not seen that before. And again, to Renqvist's credit he does the unthinkable and lets Goliath out so he can help. Makes me think of Renqvist's first episode actually when Fox was given the opportunity to escape when the Pack broke out of Riker's and instead chose to help the guard and stay just as Goliath does now. Will Goliath benefit as Fox did?

- We get our first look at Rosaria and Peter in a while. We learn that saving Ollie from the lake is how they met. Nice. We see the trio-masked men again. I know there's every reason to suspect that they are Dino, Glasses, and Joey. And I know they might want to keep their indentities hidden from the teenagers. But I still can't shake the feeling that there is something else we are missing here. And while we have not known Dino long, I can't see him using the phrase "co-inky-dink". I dunno.

- Back to the real Trio and we see them as never before. They squabbled and bickered in the past plenty, but this is the most tense I've ever seen the vibe between them. Even Coldfire wonders if the clan is salvageable. Yikes. I love this character stuff with the trio. It has been epic throughout Here In Manhattan. And so well done that even here I don't think any of them are wrong. Just different perspectives. We'll see how things get resolved over the next four chapters, assuming they do at all.

- And that's about it. Just like Chapter 7, I'm left feeling that we are laying a lot of groundwork here. A resolution to the Pack part of this, I think, but most of the stories just took a few steps forward here. I look forward to the next four chapters as we start wrapping these things up (for Here in Manhattan anyway!). I'm particularly excited for Goliath's hearing, Broadway and Angela's ceremony, the reconciliation (I hope!) of the Trio, and figuring out whatever Demona's up to (perhaps even revealing the three new keys of power!). [/SPOILER]

Looking forward to hearing what everyone else thought. And hey, Dark Ages Chapter 2 in less than a week! How lucky are we!?
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 11:37:45 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Issue 8: [SPOILER] It was a chill issue, a good palette cleanser of sorts. I like all the little idiosyncrasies of the gangsters and how quickly I've taken to most of them. Slaughter's little team were really neat. Slaughter is growing on me.

The Pack makes kind of a poor showing, Goliath barely breaks a sweat taking all three of them out. Fun seeing them, though. The comedy/dialogue here is great. I really like the idea that Wolf was a member of the crime community before becoming a member of the Pack, really adds a lot of layers to his character.

The Coldfire/Coldstone scenes were neat and just leave me wanting more. I really think Coldstone adds a lot to the cast so it's nice to see him having a bigger role in stories. I think this issue also added a fair bit to Coldfire's character in little ways. The fact that she thinks to comment on the afterlife for example. [/SPOILER]

Ed: I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion, but just to address one more point because I really don't want to come across harsh: again, I'm not comparing City of Stone and Avalon as like... look how much better City of Stone is than Avalon, how dare Avalon not be as good. Just that it illuminates where I think some of the weaknesses of the episodes are. I'm not being critical to tear at the episode or the creative team. I just wanna be very clear about that.

And largely I think the weaknesses of the tryptich come down to the fact that the episode is:

+Introducing Gabriel, Angela and the rest of the Avalon Clan. As well as Constantine, Kenneth, Finella in the flashback. And King Arthur.
+Reintroducing Tom, Katharine, the Archmage, the Magus. And then their older selves too. And the Phoenix Gate, Eye of Odin and Grimorum. And Demona and Macbeth. And the Weird Sisters.
+Introducing Avalon and the whole concept of the World Tour (which has to happen in like 30 seconds at the end of part 3).

That is *so much stuff*, something's going to be neglected by virtue of just how packed it is. If anything, it's a *testament* to the creative team that it's as cohesive and clean as it is.

There, I think I hopefully covered myself. :P
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 8:59:20 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

ED - [SPOILER] "Great to see the Trio-masks back. Still no closer to IDing them. We've not really seen this side of Dino but the talk of "his men" and the general attitude still makes me think it is him."

Well, aside from the fact that Greg mentioned on "Voices" at one point that the identities of the masked guyss aren't meant to be a mystery, Dino mentioned in #6 that he read the article about Peter and Rosaria rescuing Ollie from the lake, which is what led him there. Then he referenced that article again in this issue.

Hmm, I wonder if the real trio will come face to face with this faux trio in a future issue. [/SPOILER]

"To be fair, "Avalon" was always intended as a 'triptych' whereas "City of Stone" was conceived as a single film."

Thank you for saying this; I just don't quite understand critiquing something for not being something it's not trying to be, has no intention of being, etc. When I critique something, I ask myself what it's trying to be, what it's trying to do and then I go from there.

CRAIG - [SPOILER] "I'm pretty sure we have yet another error on the initial digital release. The Goliath/Wolf fight scene lasts for three pages and doesn't have a single bit of dialogue or sound effect. It's possible that it was intended this way, but I tend to doubt it."

It was intended to be that way. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 7:41:59 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

So, time once again for some quick thoughts on issue #8.

[SPOILER] Wasn't expecting the viewpoint character to be Coldfire to be honest, I guess this was a way to fill in new readers or fans who had forgotten the details of her and the others' deaths, resurrection and separation. I do like the little detail of her talking about being able to walk out in the sun considering how rare that is for the species. That's something I wouldn't mind the characters going into a little more detail, just some of the characters or any of the Mayan Clan talking about the warmth and brightness of the colors that can only be found in the daylight.

This is an action heavy issue as Wolf brought along the gruesome twosome as backup, this could've a serious coup for the Pack if they could only curb their sadistic tendencies and stop playing around. But a Hyena can't change their spots so to speak. This was a great way to demonstrate the inherent nobility of Goliath, not only does he once again refuse the possibility of escape, he goes out of his way to save Brod, Drakon and the guard who didn't give up any chance to flex his own sadism. I doubt they're going to be allies, but it would be nice for the gangsters to take stock in their position and just who they have on their side and who wants them dead.

Which brings up Dino (who I'm fairly certain is the one in the Brooklyn mask), I love the bit where it's confirmed that his whole reasoning and scheme was basically dependent on a major coincidence, nice to know he can laugh about such things. But now, he's got a big problem with loose ends that weren't taken care of, once it gets out that he tried to have a member of the family knocked off he's going to lose any support or security from the Drakon higher-ups. Though I have a nasty feeling this is just going to make him more dangerous...

And finally, the tension with the Trio is still unresolved. And I don't think it's going to be resolved until it reaches a boiling point now. [/SPOILER]

That's all for now, can't wait for issue 9!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 3:57:21 am EDT from 73.222.9.213

GARGOYLES #8

[SPOILER] So we've now matched the SLG run (on the core title, at any rate). Three months and we'll match Marvel too. So hype.

This is a really interesting issue. More than any issue so far, even more than #7, it really does feel like a self-contained chapter rather than a section of an episode. Closer to the way "Redemption" was structured than either "Clan-Building" or the first half of "Here in Manhattan". And I really liked that. A good amount of time was spent with Goliath and although fundamentally it's the theme as #6 - he had the chance to escape but didn't - there's so much great character stuff along the way.

"Mayday" - Greg's really back on the one-worders. There's also a reference to the Alliance - wonder if there'll be more cross-referencing.

Nice to get Coldfire narration and the date is getting specified which I always like. Quite a lot of time on backstory which is fun but not too exciting. Calling Iago "cursed" is a little coy given I'm fairly sure Desdemona has flat-out called him "evil" before. I thought she was catastrophising the Trio's disagreement by wondering if the clan is 'salvageable'... and then she basically says the same at the end. Cool.

I really like Tony and Brod here. Brod's pragmatism and ruthlessness is on display - he knows there's a weakness for the gargoyles now. But for Tony it's a show (same word Dino used of watching the car bombing in #6 - guess the penchant for drama runs in the family). His final metaphor is sports. It's not clear that he's grateful to Goliath but I think even he has to be kind of impressed... I'm really interested by where this arc takes Tony. Meanwhile, Brod's question is tantamount to calling Goliath an idiot for not doing the pragmatic thing.

Renqvist meanwhile goes from sadism to seeming quite humbled. Will that factor into the outcome of the hearing?

Fun to see the Pack back as nearly a team. Also, there's a strange thrill to seeing Dracon and the Pack in the same story. Whereas the rest of the 'Gargoyles' universe heavily cross-pollinates, the Dracon stories were always quite compartmentalised - two of them don't even have a speaking role for Goliath. It's nice to see the Pack and Dracon meet.

Interesting to meet more of Slaughter's people -- Murray and the interestingly-named Alphabet. I really like Slaughter so far. Actually, all the crime bosses fascinate me. I always thought the crime plots were an under-appreciated corner of the universe but the comic has really done a fantastic job.

Great to see the Trio-masks back. Still no closer to IDing them. We've not really seen this side of Dino but the talk of "his men" and the general attitude still makes me think it is him.

A good Trio scene although it's not clear what Broadway told Brooklyn about Antoinette. What is happening with her? A Dracon turning up at Castle Wyvern and asking for help is a huge deal in so many ways and I'm interested to see where that thread goes. I also really like Broadway's self-deprecating joke - but I also like that Lex (who in the past has poked fun at Broadway's weight) hangs a hat on why these jokes, relatively common in the classic series, might not be the best. As written, it clearly shows Broadway's self-confidence and is quite sweet.

The Wolf/Goliath battle is visually great. Interesting choice not to have dialogue or SFX at all.

I laughed out loud at the "next" lines. But it's also a clever way to reiterate to readers who don't follow "Voices" etc that this is a hearing. Evidently #9 is going to be a big one...

Another great issue. And only one week until new 'Dark Ages'! Amazing! [/SPOILER]

Craig: (Avalon) To be fair, "Avalon" was always intended as a 'triptych' whereas "City of Stone" was conceived as a single film. The structural differences are functions of design (and I actually like both). And I agree, comparing another story to "City of Stone" is like saying, "Well, it's not as good as 'King Lear'!" What is?!!

(M.I.A.) Thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard of those specifics.

Alex: Interesting views, though I don't have more to add than my previous posts really.

Todd: Yes, I've been reading it too.
Ed
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 3:48:39 am EDT from 31.94.12.11

A few preliminary thoughts on Gargoyles #8 (will certainly have more later)...

[SPOILER]
I'm pretty sure we have yet another error on the initial digital release. The Goliath/Wolf fight scene lasts for three pages and doesn't have a single bit of dialogue or sound effect. It's possible that it was intended this way, but I tend to doubt it.

I'm really glad that Slaughter perceived that he's being duped. Dino's machinations have frankly felt very transparent to me and it annoyed me that the other crime bosses didn't see through it, so I'm glad that Slaughter did.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Aug 2, 2023 3:45:58 am EDT from 24.46.160.185

Good read.
Gabion Walls
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 10:44:23 pm EDT from 180.191.198.185

While we're on the time travel subject, I checked out from the library today James Gleick's book "Time Travel", which Phoenician had mentioned here last week, and have been looking through it. It's a good read, and I'd like to thank you, Phoenician, for speaking about it.

Oh, and [SPOILER] I've got a look at the preview pages for #8. I was amused to note that it's titled "Mayday" - another one-word title - and that at the beginning, Coldfire mentions that the events are taking place in May. (Actually, the term "Mayday" is based on the French "m'aider" for "help me" and isn't connected to the name of the month at all; Greg Weisman might have intended a bit of wordplay here, though.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 8:48:04 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

To be clear, again, I like Avalon. It's a good time. Really, the only reason I even take issue with it is it's such a tentpole story that is the bedrock for other stories and I think it lets them down a bit.

Yeah I agree with you about Future Tense. I don't actually remember what my purpose was in bringing up that there's multiple ways to use the gate.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 8:03:21 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Alex > I agree that “Avalon” isn’t as good as “City of Stone” (which is a very high bar!), and is much more episodic than most of the multiparters Gargoyles did. Part 1 is the 995 flashbacks, Part 2 is the Archmage time travel story, Part 3 is the battle. It’s very clearly delineated, which isn’t a bad thing, but perhaps it doesn’t hang together as a unified whole quite as well as it might. But to me, this is kind of like complaining that every movie isn’t Citizen Kane. No one hits a home run every time, and even if “Avalon” doesn’t compare as favorably to some other Gargoyles multiparters, it’s still great.

As to “Future Tense”: I like your idea of using the Gate to teleport through space without traveling through time. But this probably enters into “Goliath as Winnie the Pooh” territory: he’s a very linear thinker, and he’s going to envision use of the Gate only in the way he’s seen it used before, so this likely wouldn’t even occur to him. In any event, isn’t teleportation in its own way a form of time travel? You’re cheating time by getting from Point A to Point B faster than should be possible. From that mindset, personally—if I’d had Goliath’s experiences—I would absolutely be leery of using the Gate even in that method.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 7:20:20 pm EDT from 166.198.251.8

Ed> See, a lot of this was kind of in the back of my mind when I was writing my post. Avalon being about the pettiness of revenge is definitely a B-theme of sorts of the story.

But to compare it to Gillecomegain, I think largely just makes it clear where Avalon kinda falls short where City of Stone succeeds in a really big way. Gillecomegain is a much more human character than the Archmage, and a much more pitiable one. Despite being likely equally monstrous, it's very sort of relatable that he was just this young boy working the farm when a monster came out of nowhere and slashed his face. I think even though Demona doesn't remember Gillecomegain, she certainly *HATES* the Hunter. So the sort of thrust of the story is really powerful in that respect. The venom and heat and hatred of Demona and the Hunter's enmity is offset by the tiny, petty actions of Demona scarring Gille as a boy out of anger.

I think the episode is also just structured better and showcases it's themes in a stronger way. The follow through of the pettiness of Demona is better demonstrated as part of the narrative. It's also so much more focused because those episodes are really situated around Macbeth & Gillecomegain & Demona in their totality. The orbit of it is *very* powerful. Avalon is a lot more aimless by comparison.

My point with the Archmage is more... I dunno if I buy into this epic conflict between Goliath and the Archmage as much as that and I think for the purposes of that story I really *want* to, I think it *should* be there. Goliath just doesn't hate the Archmage enough. He just wants him to go away and if he never saw him again he'd never think of him again, despite the Archmage's tremendous power, Goliath just kind of treats him as inconvenient. Which is consistent with his character, he's extremely stoic, but it makes for kind of an underwhelming conflict.

Which kind of brings me to the point I alluded to with the Magus, the most powerful *feelings* of sorts in Avalon come from the Magus. Avalon, largely, is a redemption story about the Magus and Katharine. Which is... strange, because he has so little to do in the A story really. He doesn't confront the Archmage in a magical duel, he doesn't even really play into anything except waking King Arthur. Which is more of a set up for future stories as he's really just another footman to take on Demona & Macbeth in Avalon. He deals with the Weird Sisters; who... the more I talk about this, feel more and more like the true antagonists of the story but they're not really framed that way.

And in that respect, it's lovely. I think all the Magus & Katharine scenes in Avalon are really effective. The most effective. But it takes away from all the other beats the story is trying to accomplish. Namely Angela, but I've ranted about that already.

I dunno if I'm bothered by the sort of basicness of the Archmage in of himself, though. I think it's fine to have a campy, shallow villain, especially when he's as much fun as the Archmage; but I think he ends up punching above his weight class because of that. He's really just an excuse for the story to happen at the end of the day and the script is pushing him to be more when he isn't.

Also I am *very* aware that Xanatos is really just lucky too. Pretty much just as lucky as the Archmage. And I think that's both fitting and extremely ironic. I enjoy that aspect of the episode that he's really taking credit for something he stumbled into. It's a neat level.

I don't actually dislike M.I.A. honestly. I'd rate it pretty much smack dab in the middle. I don't like the designs of the London Clan; they're too furry -- not that I have a problem with furries generally they just end up not looking like any other Gargoyle and I think there were cleverer ways to evoke the heraldry theme. Also the portrayal of London is a bit "Chim Chim Cheree Mary Poppins", but other than that it's a solid story with clear goals and stakes.

I'm more saying, M.I.A. implicates that fate is a real, driving force on the world at large. Which I mean it'd have to be. Effects can't happen before causes, it's impossible (time travel is impossible actually, but we'll ignore that for the sake of this discussion). So fate has to play some role in these loops. I don't actually dislike the loop itself. For the record I don't dislike any of the loops. Avalon Part 2 is a great story in a vacuum. And all the causal/moebius loops are cool as hell.

Craig/Future Tense> Well, as I said, I think there are ways to use the Phoenix Gate that don't involve changing history. Also the episode, in it's totality is really a conflict of:

Puck shows Goliath scary thing to make him give up the Phoenix Gate.
Goliath does not want to give up the Phoenix Gate.

It really has nothing to do with the time travel discussion frankly, I just think Goliath could have had a stronger reason to not want to give up the Gate. But he's just kind of indifferent.

And I don't think the Archmage is driven by fate or anything, that's not really my issue with it. I think the Archmage has agency. But I think the story ends up feeling too deliberate because despite being so complex in terms of the mechanics of the time travel and it's impact on the show at large; it's actually very straight forward how it came to be.

I also think it's interesting, Ed, that you say the inciting incident of Avalon is Goliath's suicide. I think that's the more generous interpretation, and I prefer it as I think the Magus/Katharine story is the stronger one. But there's an argument to be made that the inciting incident is the Archmage+ saving the Archmage. But I think that is the weaker interpretation. I think it does really come down to what I dislike about Avalon (even though I really like it overall) is that it's trying to combine 2, maybe even 3 very different narratives into a single story and it's cumbersome. Especially given that it's introducing 4-5 new characters, reintroducing 3 old characters who are like new characters, and the whole new setting of Avalon.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 6:51:51 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

Ed > It gets even worse than that. I'm going to try to tread lightly here, because I know it's a very personal subject for Greg Weisman. But after a rewatch of "M.I.A.," I did some reading on Douglas Bader, the pilot portrayed in the episode, who was a family friend and hero of Mr. Weisman's, and a major inspiration for the whole idea of doing a Battle of Britain story. While Bader was undeniably a hero and achieved feats of which I'd never even dream of being capable (a double amputee who despite his disability heroically served his country in several air battles, and spent years as a POW), he was also extremely xenophobic, arguably even racist, in his later years. Among other opinions, he vocally supported apartheid, and proposed that immigration into Britain should be put on indefinite pause, and made some demeaning comments about other races as well. I'll assume Mr. Weisman was unaware of these facts at the time (and, again, I hate to mention them, but they do appear to be verified facts from public statements he made). Watching the episode with this knowledge makes the somewhat clunky attempts at addressing racism feel even more muddled, even if it wasn't really anyone's fault at the time.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 6:44:47 pm EDT from 24.46.161.157

Ha! Thanks, Greg.

As for "M.I.A." - look, I'm being very specific with my wording. It has flaws in some respects (almost all details of its execution rather than concept or plot). And it's one of my least favourites.

None of this is to say that it's not a great episode. No denying it has an evocative setting, a great time-travel plot, some pivotal scenes ("human problems become gargoyle problems") and sets a lot up that pays off within episodes in season 2 (and echoed as recently as "The Reach"). Its animation is also terrific and gives it a prestige feel, though there are several other episodes ("Golem" especially springs to mind) that I think would be this well-regarded if the animation were as good.

There are lots of tiny annoyances but those I can waive. The "cor, chap, speak backwards I do" dialogue which, growing up in 90s London, hits as pure uncanny valley (unless you're Garth Ennis, a little of that stuff goes a long way). The misty London cliche is fine because you need the mist for the skiff to materialise. The 70s throwback feel to the thugs fits the role they need to play and probably use stock designs. The gargoyle designs, notably Griff, aren't my favourite - more talking animals than heraldic gargoyles: Fu-dog and Zafiro have animal influences but still feel like the same species in a way Una and Leo barely do. (I can't remember if I saw it suggested here or just imagined the speculation that non-heraldic gargoyles were smashed leading to an extreme selective breeding for heraldic qualities but that makes it work a little better for me).

But the stuff that really makes me leery... 90s London -- Soho no less! -- is presented as all-white, except for one person who is an ethnic minority. In an episode that explicitly highlights race (though not, oddly, when the Nazis are discussed) and explicitly plays off the location's reputation by putting the gargoyles there... the citizenry looks basically like it did in the 50s.

And I know in a 90s cartoon some of the more realistic aspects of Soho couldn't be spelled out but in an episode explicitly about tolerance for marginalised communities, set in the absolute heart of London's gay community... the only humans who present themselves (leave skin tone aside) even remotely counter-culturally... are Nazi thugs.

Leo, a literal curtain-twitcher who says "there goes the neighbourhood" -- let's be clear, a full-fat racist dogwhistle -- then gets his hero moment to stand alongside a granny and a little kid (who are, I guess, in the red light district after dark for some reason) and an ordinary shopkeeper (which in Soho then probably meant pornographer) as the unwanted elements go running off. Yes, they're Nazis, but mute it and look at the imagery that closing tableau presents. It's, shall we say, discordant.

It's not the intent. I know that's not the intent. It's not the text which is as explicitly anti-racist as anything the show has put out. I know that's not what Greg, who is more careful and forward-thinking about this stuff than most, would have ever want to convey. I know most people here won't be bothered now. I know the bullseye audience of 8-12 year-old Americans certainly didn't give a hoot. I know the 90s were a different time. I know a more diverse London may even have read as confusing to people whose preconceptions of London were different. I know it's a minority view and I'm not trying to persuade anyone to re-evaluate the episode - I hope most people enjoy the episode as it's intended to be enjoyed as there's so much to appreciate.

But nevertheless, the modern London scenes pull me out of the episode in a way Broadway's cartoon eyes in "Kingdom" or the overly long flashback scene in "Outfoxed" just don't. They nagged at me when I first saw them. Looking at them with wiser eyes now, they still nag at me still and I have to mentally account for them in a way I simply don't have to do for any other 'Gargoyles' story - hence, I enjoy it less. The scenes aren't bad. They're just... the only word I can find for it... flawed.
Ed
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 6:10:13 pm EDT from 31.94.12.11

Cheers, Ed. I love that post (not that last paragraph, but we'll table that for another time).
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 2:04:44 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Some of these arguments mirror a longstanding issue some fans have that “City of Stone” has a very grand and foreboding tone while the Archmage’s actual plot and character is extremely provincial - he doesn’t even think outside conquering Scotland until his future self tells him to do so.

So while Xanatos IS slick and extremely smart - he set the whole "Vows" plot up, albeit on his own instructions - the Archmage needs his future self (with the benefit of the Grimorum and the Eye to power him up) to explain his own plot to him. But that's just true to their characters - in any plot you put Xanatos in, he's going to appear smarter because he is.

This doesn’t bother me personally - one of the things Greg always does really well is match tiny actions to outside, often quite unintentional, consequences.

Gillecomgain starts a millennia-long blood feud because of an incident Demona doesn’t even remember. Macbeth teaches Lulach a lesson which Demona misinterprets. A vengeful wizard from 984 indirectly causes Demona to be immortal. Xanatos' desire to be immortal leads to Talon and Maggie coming together and therefore indirectly to Michael's birth.

"All things are connected... there's no separating fate from fate."

Most of these characters have petty motives (even in "Avalon", the inciting incident is Goliath's apparent suicide) but the cumulative effect of all these actions is grand events that we class as "fate". I think that is very true to life.

The existence of the Gate and its capacity to bend time into a Möbius loop doesn't negate these motives - it just adds another dimension to the complexity.

MIA: I mean, fate IS taking a hand… but the cause of that hand is Goliath’s free choice. He creates the fate but he feels the consequences before the point of decision.

I don't personally have a problem with Griff's repeat near-misses. Goliath is shot as well!

I do think "M.I.A." is a very flawed episode in other respects - a good contender for my least favourite of them all. But not for the time travel.
Ed
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 12:49:32 pm EDT from 195.110.171.60

Great conversation. I have nothing to add, but it is interesting. I agree with Bishansky that one timeline is all I want and need for this property. No multiverses, no alternate timelines.

Probably won't check back in here until tomorrow with my review of Chapter 8. Enjoy it, everyone!
Matt
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 11:00:53 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Alex > I suppose it's a matter of personal storytelling preference. That inter-tangling of "cause" and "effect" (the "chicken or the egg" kind of thing) is fascinating to me. It's a major part of Xanatos's arc in "Vows" (which is perhaps part of why you find that arc more satisfying). He insists that he's a self-made man, and you get the sense that on some level, he's really trying to convince himself that this is true, because he's insecure about the fact that he never truly originated the idea himself. The Archmage is inherently a more shallow, self-serving character. When provided with the opportunity to survive and gain power, he simply takes it, no questions asked. Clearly, "Avalon Part 2" isn't trying to be any kind of deep character study, it's just a fun clever time travel story setting up an action-packed battle in Part 3. I guess ultimately, to me, the Archmage isn't just doing what he does because he HAS to, or because he's done it before. He's doing it because it serves his interests, and conveniently, he knows what steps to take from experience. Just as we all act every day from experience, doing the things that we believe will serve our interests and values. So it's still very much motivated by character and choice. But I certainly won't argue with you that "Vows" is the most successful time travel story Gargoyles has done. It's just packed with everything you could ask for. It almost feels like the episode itself manipulates time, because you can't comprehend how so much was packed into a 22-minute episode.

As for "Future Tense," I don't think Goliath is being stubborn. He's learned his lesson that the past cannot be altered or erased, so using the Gate is a fool's errand. This is also where "M.I.A." serves its purpose: by trying to prevent an event, Goliath caused it to occur. I agree with you that parts of "M.I.A." are a bit sloppy (to use that word again). Griff repeatedly falling prey to various dangers becomes comedic (I'm not sure if this was intended or not, but I always laugh...it starts to feel a bit like a Looney Tunes cartoon). But in "Future Tense," Goliath remembers his "M.I.A." experience, and realizes that traveling back in time would not only be futile, but could ultimately make things worse. (I mean, technically it wouldn't make things worse because you can't change anything...but if he traveled back in time and then inadvertently caused the entire future he was trying to prevent, he would FEEL worse...so, the heck with time travel!). I feel like his motivation makes so much sense in that episode. I never questioned it.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 10:49:51 am EDT from 24.46.160.31

I think you're mischaracterizing what I said. When I use the word "sloppy" in terms of character motivation, I don't mean that the mechanics or events are sloppy or confusing. I mean that in Avalon the Archmage goes back in time to save himself because the Archmage went back in time to save himself. The effect comes before the cause. The cause is really in fact *the direct result* of the effect.

It's clever, and it makes sense, I never said otherwise, but it's basically just something happened because fate decreed it because just about everything that allowed the Archmage to go back in time with the Phoenix Gate to save himself was him using the Phoenix Gate to set it up. And then we find out that the Archmage's time hopping is the thing that resulted in *lots* of story beats and character points. It's just a lot more basic and I'm not the biggest fan of it as a conceit, even though it is very clever and extremely coherent. And the scenes between Archmage and Archmage+ are a lot of fun.

Whereas in Vows, there's a lot more moving parts going on. So yes, Xanatos takes advantage of the situation Demona & Goliath have created to set himself up and make money, but the sequence of events isn't almost entirely dependent on Xanatos traveling back in time by himself. The onus of the events is more complex. Even though, at the end of the day, the ONLY reason Goliath and Demona are able to go back in time is because Xanatos set it up. It just *feels* better to me.

I guess ultimately -- I really don't think the Archmage was chosen by time or anything, so I suppose *ultimately* the Weird Sisters are really the mechanism through which he is ultimately able to achieve the Gate & Eye and do everything he does. But that feels manipulative to me too. I think Vows plot makes Xanatos look *slick* and *really smart* and Avalon makes the Archmage look really lucky.

And to be clear, in general, I'm not trying to argue that the story doesn't add up or doesn't make sense. Rarely when I criticize something is it because of some cinema sins-esque "well that doesn't make total sense to me" (unless I'm trying to be funny). Stories generally aren't going to make total sense, the job of the writer is to make the audience/viewer accept the things that don't make sense anyway because there's something moving or engaging about it. And I think trying to make things make too much sense can make really boring art anyway. And is largely unnecessary.

Just to criticize Avalon for a minute, because I think I have a unique, albeit critical point to make. I think largely while Avalon is cool, and I think I've said this before, I just find it's trying to do way too much. The through line of the sort of epic unrequited romance of the Magus & Katharine is touching and is the strongest thing about it (which... ultimately I think is actually kind of a flaw, and I can expand on that if people are curious), the piece is mostly underserved by how hollow the Archmage ultimately is. I love David Warner, I love how wacky and over the top the character is, but his conflict with Goliath (which... has apparently defined entire world events and historical wars) just ends up lacking poignancy because the extent of their encounters is just Goliath beating on him. And to attempt to clarify this point I don't think I'm explaining very well, it's not like the Archmage needed a sick mother or for Goliath to have bullied him as a child. Just that the Archmage's beef comes down to "he made me jump off a cliff by accident one time".

An opportunity for Dark Ages maybe. But it feels like something Avalon really needed.

On M.I.A.: Is Blitz-era London trying to kill Griff just a figment of his imagination? Or is fate actually conspiring against them? Was more or less a question I was asking. I think it's an interesting point. But the show as presented isn't even really ambiguous about it, the narrative is at least strongly implying that fate is taking a hand here, even if we as objective observers can recognize that may not necessarily be the case and Goliath is just jumping to conclusions.

On Future Tense: Yeah I want to be clear I think there's lots of good reasons for Goliath not to use the Phoenix Gate. It seems... extremely stubborn and odd given the severity of the (fabricated) situation, but Goliath is an extremely stubborn character at times. I'm just not sure Goliath's reasons for not using the Gate are fleshed out as well as they should be when they're so core to the point of the episode.

Multiverses are just silly fun, and I think they work well as silly fun. I think multiverses that just... exist are cool. Like Spider-verse or No Way Home are really just cross over stories with different versions of similar things. It'd be hard to make an engaging Sinister Six story in a film because you gotta introduce 6 bad guys, but by using old versions of the characters we already like and are familiar with, No Way Home was able to do it.

I think String Theory specifically (like there's a universe that exists for every decision a person can make, and that changes history) is dumb and way more problematic than a generic multiverse. And Greg's often talked about disliking hypotheticals, which I think really ties into that and his preference for closed paradox time travel. String theory multiverses are really just the idea that every hypothetical ("what if Demona didn't betray the Wyvern Clan!!?") exists somewhere.

Though Everything, Everywhere All At Once made it work. So... I mean most ideas come down to execution anyway.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 4:59:06 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

All of our decisions are influenced, to one degree or another, by external factors. In the context of closed-loop time travel, that decision process just happens to include foreknowledge of certain future events. Personally, I don't find this at all confusing or "sloppy." It's intensely fascinating. If I know on a logical basis that I can't change things, but I really want to do so for personal or moral reasons, how would I behave? I don't believe this negates free will at all; rather, whatever choices I ultimately make are already embedded in the timestream...I just don't fully know the repercussions yet before I act. I don't think the Archmage was "chosen" by the timestream...he just experienced things, and made choices based on those experiences in order to achieve a desired result, which led to a loop. And of course, he ultimately brought about his own undoing, so his story retains a human element. He's not omnipotent, he only knows what he has experienced.

I find the other manner of time travel much more aggravating from a logical standpoint. If I go back in time and kill my grandfather, then I cease to exist...so I couldn't have killed my grandfather...so I do exist again...so I kill my grandfather again. It's an endless branching of alternate universes, none of which can actually internally make sense unto themselves. (And I agree with Bishansky that alternate universes are boring and way overdone anyway.)
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 1, 2023 12:22:37 am EDT from 24.46.162.79

B: Hmmm. I think you can entertain the "what if" as a mental exercise without there actually being a different character who embodies a different path. That's what tragedy is - a character who is able to choose but chooses wrongly. The alternative path, like life, is always unknowable and therefore open to an infinity of interpretations which is what makes it so tantalising and poetic.

The problem comes when you introduce a second universe version who chooses differently.

So in the case of Demona, either the other Demona is a different character with some imperceptibly small difference in brain chemistry that triggered a different choice - in which case our Demona is just out of luck because she was the one wired to make a mistake.

Or they are exactly the same character but in this case the only difference is the choice. But if all configurations of a choice exist somewhere then there is no true free choice - it just depends which version of the universe you're in, in which case our Demona is, yet again, SOL.

And obviously Demona is an extreme example but the same concept basically applies to any multiverse.

As for Griff, if you hang out in the London Blitz it's probably not a surprise you're going to be in danger. Goliath interpreted this as he did because he was viewing it through the prism of Griff's absence in the 90s but there are lots of times when the gargoyles are in constant danger and need rescuing - the first Wednesdays of the month seem particularly tricky for them lately - but we don't think fate is conspiring against them. War is simply dangerous.

Plus, the only other plausible explanation for Griff's absence other than the Gate is that he did indeed die that night. So in that sense... yeah, fate is gunning for him but only insofar as he put himself in the path of the bullets.

Now I think you can interpret the episode as meaning there was a force of fate influencing events - we know fate exists and is embodied in Luna in the 'Gargoyles' universe. But I feel like at some point this lessens the agency of the characters and Greg is very clear that the agency of the characters, whatever the circumstances, remains intact. I see the "fate is conspiring" stuff as the dangers of the night becoming very concrete to Goliath rather than there literally being some force yanking Goliath around to do what he needs to do.

Incidentally, a quick look-up in Ask Greg and Greg talked around time travel in the comment room way back in 1998:

https://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=2
https://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=3

They're worth reading in full but a couple of sections that seemed particularly relevant to this discussion. I think "pretending worms aren't there" sums up near every multiverse around.

"It also explains why our guys just don't go back and
fix things so that the Wyvern Massacre never happened. Once you open a a can
of worms, you're stuck with a lot of worms (or worse, you pretend they aren't
there). That seemed lousy to me, so I made it clear that once an event is
absolutely known, you can't dodge it. Only work within it's frame. It's all
a matter of opinion, but that seemed like MORE fun to me."

"To Goliath, in the 1990s, the past seems fixed. The present and
future, not. To Goliath in 1940, the past and present seem fixed, and the
future seems fixed for a few decades, and then past the mid-nineties, not.
To Greg Weisman, in his capacity as god of the Gargoyle Universe, the past,
present and future seem fixed.
But what does this mean? It means we are bound by what we know and nothing
more. What does "fixed" mean? Goliath realizes that Griff can't return to
his clan in the forties, because he didn't return in the forties. But that
doesn't mean Goliath cannot affect their mutual futures, by bopping Griff
forward to the nineties.
Greg Weisman knows that something big happens in the year 2158. But he
doesn't yet know all the results of that. For that matter, Greg has a lot of
knowledge about what happened in 984. But what exactly happened between 984
and 994? I've got a basic idea, but there's room for movement. There are
facts I can't dodge, therefore facts that my characters can't dodge. But
that doesn't remove their free will.
Pre-destination does not NEGATE free will, unless the character abdicates
free will in the mistaken belief that he or she has none. And even then, the
"act" of abdication is a choice, an act of free will."
Ed
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 5:14:51 pm EDT from 31.94.2.199

Ed> But it's not just Goliath causing Griff to go missing because he heard about Griff going missing. As Alex said, various things in the environment all started trying to kill Griff in rapid succession to push Goliath into taking him into the future, like Fate was saying, "Do it or he dies tonight like Una and Leo thought."
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 3:43:53 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Hmm, no I agree with Ed... I'm glad there's no multiverse in "Gargoyles". Also, to be 100% honest, I am sick and tired of multiverse stories.

One timeline is all I need for this franchise.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 3:40:06 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

I have to disagree with one of Ed's points from last week. The existence of an alternate Demona who made the right choice only reinforces that Demona *could* have chosen differently when the moment came upon them - but didn't. That's not her being a victim of being born in the wrong universe, that's her making the wrong choice. That's what differentiates her from Alternate Demona. It shows that the path she took wasn't inevitable and she's not just a victim of fate.

In this model, alternate timelines should only exist for choices that characters could actually have made when the moment came, not any random thing being different. If there's no way in heck a character would have made a certain choice, there's not going to be a corresponding timeline.
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 3:36:07 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Interesting thoughts, Alex.

I don't see any difference between the treatment of time travel in "Vows" and "Avalon". Both have a bootstrap paradox at the heart. I appreciate "Vows" has the time travel directed more by the core characters but fundamentally both play around with time in a similar manner.

In "M.I.A.", I agree that the hand of 'fate' is completely Goliath's point of view. He caused Griff to go missing because he worried about Griff going missing. I agree that the drama only exists because of Goliath's foreknowledge - but generally speaking, certainly up until the events of "Phoenix", characters (and certainly the audience) don't have foreknowledge so this isn't a problem.

(Then again, sometimes drama is contrived from exactly this reason. There's the old Hitchcock thing that if you explode a bomb, you get a few seconds of drama, but if you show an unexploded bomb under the table and then have a long scene of characters talking, you have minutes of unbearable suspense. Effectively, Griff's disappearance is the bomb under the table.)

I agree that there are things that could have been done in "Future Tense" using the Gate but I think (1) it falls into the "Goliath as Winnie the Pooh" thing - the Gate isn't something he's used to using; and (2) flaunting his ownership of an immensely powerful artefact in a future where he's very much a stranger perhaps wouldn't be the best strategy anyway.

Of course, added to all this is the likelihood that we would get some more insight into the reasons for some of these ontological paradoxes through 'Timedancer'. Greg mentioned the idea of the Phoenix as a 'valve' and there are various hints of forces controlling destiny such as Avalon sending the travellers where they "need" to be.
Ed
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 6:38:46 am EDT from 195.110.171.60

Comment room doesn't like my hiragana. One is what that was supposed to be.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 5:07:25 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

いち

Honestly, maybe this'll be inflammatory (I hope not) but I think Gargoyles's use of time travel varies. I think the first one (Vows) is great, and Avalon is a lot sloppier in terms of character motivation. In Vows, the actual time travel is motivated by Demona and Goliath's wants and desires. Xanatos is kind of just tagging along and taking advantage of the situation, and isn't really the focus of the story.

Avalon *toys* with this idea, but ultimately the whole impetus of the time travel is just the Archmage choosing to go back in time to save himself. It's kind of an entirely self-contained loop where it just seems like history chose the Archmage to be relevant. Rather than him actively doing something from the onset. I dunno if I can justify how objectively that's different than how Xanatos uses it, but it *feels* different to me.

And then M.I.A. isn't really too concerned with it, M.I.A. has way lower stakes; but it's just like, how do these Paradoxes happen? The effect happens before the cause. And I think Vows is the only story where the cause and the effects aren't inextricably linked. Demona is the one who goes back in time not Xanatos, and I don't *believe* Demona does so knowing that she'll create a stable loop; whereas the Archmage and Goliath are *very* aware they're creating loops. But, because time is irrevocable, it doesn't matter that she didn't know ultimately anyway.

M.I.A. also implies that fate itself is trying to kill Griff. It's mostly just Goliath's interpretation of Griff constantly being in danger, but I always think the excuse of "you won't because you didn't" is strange, because it could apply to anything. If it were a forward-moving story without time travel, and someone didn't do something obvious, we'd be right to question that. But with paradox-based time travel we're wrong to.

Future Tense even, Goliath knows history can't be changed, but there're *so many* other ways to use the Phoenix gate. Teleport all over the place to set a bunch of bombs that go off 1 minute after he traveled back, but before "Xanatos's" plan can go off. Or just use it to teleport into the pyramid. Or just about anywhere. And I get that Future Tense intentionally doesn't make sense, it's a maddening vision meant to drive Goliath exhausted enough to give up the Phoenix Gate but it is rather inscrutable on another level.

I think the main thing with time travel stories is just... don't use it as a crutch to cheat. Don't use it as an easy answer, or change your rules on a whim because they're suddenly inconvenient for how you want the story to go. But that's also something Greg does well in Gargoyles. He cheats with magic sometimes, but in a way that *feels* fair. Magic is totally linked to the characters feelings and circumstances. The Weird Sisters can only make MacBeth and Demona immortal BECAUSE of who they are and what they do, but there's no scientific or objective truth that allows this.

So I think really as long as a story *feels* emotionally true and right and you're not breaking your own rules, it doesn't matter what form of time travel you really use.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Jul 31, 2023 5:06:52 am EDT from 70.27.163.9