Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

I once wrote in this comment room a scenelet where Brooklyn's commenting on the clan not doing much with familiar Scottish conventions: "We wear loincloths instead of kilts, we've never played the bagpipes, and the only time any of us ate haggis was the time Bronx got loose at a Burns Night dinner and scarfed all the food before Lex, Broadway and I could pull him out."

GOLIATH (sharply): "What was this?"

BROOKLYN: "Oh, boy...."
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 8:42:36 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Dark Ages #2 has a reference to haggis, yet according to Wikipedia there's no mention of it before 1430. It could be that it existed well before but didn't have its current name.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 8:33:38 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

I wonder what the Manhattan gargoyles think of haggis. Of course, aside from Hudson's accent, they don't seem to demonstrate that much in the way of "conventional Scottish culture" - a lot of which was developed after the tenth century, in any case.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 8:13:06 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

The haggis I had was drowned in gravy. And not even the good kind, a gray, mushy plate meant to enhance the fatty nothingness of the haggis.
I think that line from So I Married an Axe Murderer said it best.
"In fact, I think most Scottish cuisine is based on a dare."
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 7:58:49 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew > Rude! :-) I’m a big fan of spicy food. Love Indian and Mexican, the spicier the better. But during my trip to Scotland, I ate haggis every day and found it delicious.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 7:34:55 pm EDT from 107.127.7.21

I've never been to Scotland but I've had traditional cuisine when I visited the Scottish Games.
I can confirm that there is no flavor.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 5:35:19 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Just popped in my head: trans gargoyles wear colored contact lenses so their eyes glow the correct color.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 1:54:23 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

I figure that there are Mom and Pop diners in the same neighborhood, and Jaffe is their supplier.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 1:49:49 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Matt > That's even funnier. I'm imaging some poor schmoe lugging a sack of potatoes home on the subway. Maybe there are a lot of survivalists in Jaffe's neighborhood?
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 12:47:13 pm EDT from 24.46.161.172

Further thought on "Protection" - particularly the infamous "Jalapena" moment. Goliath probably wouldn't have had much experience with that kind of hot spicy food. It would have been extremely rare in tenth century Scotland; any spices that showed up at Castle Wyvern would have been most likely reserved for the nobles - and I can't picture the "pre-Wyvern Massacre" Princess Katharine being willing to share them with the gargoyles.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 9:59:46 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Just watched "Protection" again last night. I have not listened to the podcast yet. So busy these days, but I'll get there!

Just wanted to note that it wasn't a bag of flour that Dracon hit Elisa with. It was a bag of potatoes. It said it on the bag (or at least on an identical bag sitting next to it).
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Sat, Aug 26, 2023 8:51:51 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Just listened to the "Voices From the Eyrie" podcast on "Protection" and enjoyed it. I noted the contrast they brought up between Glasses and Tony; Glasses has the sense to phrase his threats in such a way that it'd be difficult to prove that they were threats, while Tony is a lot more careless. (And, yes, it definitely feels like good timing to have that podcast coming out in the middle of a story featuring the Dracons in the comic.)

Goliath's pronunciation of "dry-cleaners" (also brought up in the podcast) reminds me of how he pronounced "detective" in the first season.

And one of the highlights for me, both in the episode and the podcast, was just how disgusted Goliath was by Tony's use of "protection" - to him, using the word that way would seem blasphemous. (Of course, protection rackets of a sort were around in his original time period, even if they weren't called that. Around the time of the Wyvern Massacre, in England to the south, the then-king, Ethelred the Unready, tried solving the Viking problem by paying the Vikings to leave him alone. It backfired spectacularly; the Vikings quickly realized that threatening to invade England was a great way of getting more money out of him.) I've mentioned this before, but I have a creativity demon of Goliath, while being disgusted by the Ku Klux Klan in general, being particularly outraged at the fact that that organization dares call itself a "clan" (spelled with a K, but the derivation was obvious, all the same).

One bit that they surprisingly didn't mention was Chavez, during that "staged conversation" in front of Pal Joey, commenting that Elisa had been acting strange lately. I thought that was a nice touch in keeping it from being too obvious to the audience that the conversation was staged - we'd be expecting Chavez to be thinking that about Elisa ever since she'd met the gargoyles.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 9:33:51 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Greg B> No problem, and glad to be of help.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 6:44:47 pm EDT from 107.77.205.212

The young, hotheaded gangster who really shouldn't be in a position of power isn't a new character archetype. Usually they're depicted as young men, born into a position of privilege, smug, not as clever or smart as they think they are and prone to violence. Tommy from Goodfellas is one of the more well-known examples of this character type (probably because the real world mafia had plenty of these), one of the more recent examples I can think of is Young Jun from HBO's Warrior.

Tony Dracon fits most of the description minus the violent part, it is a Disney property. Instead he fills that up with an overabundance of slimy overconfidence. Yeah he's smart, but his ego constantly gets in the way and he makes some really dumb decisions that I'm sure other members of the family could see coming a mile away.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 5:52:10 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Jurgan: Huh. I wouldn't have said Tony is anything like Tuco. Way smarter, smoother and more in control - and I really can't see him sampling the product even assuming drugs was a major part of their business, which seems to more geared toward classic extortion. Dino has a bit more of a Lalo vibe to him. Tony... if there's any Gilliverse comparison (and I'm not sure there is), I'd say it's S1 Nacho. A little smarter, a little slicker and a little more in control than the rest but still ultimately a "colour inside the lines" thinker (unlike, say, Brod or Dino).

Craig: Good find. Interesting that they had commissioned a fair way ahead. A shame too. A nice Easter egg to find that Marie Severin was originally to draw "Reunion".

Phoenician: Maybe. We know it's possible for mortals to use it though as Boudicca did (twice, in fact). But I take the point. Probably depends which day they catch Oberon on I guess.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 5:03:59 pm EDT from 86.157.35.46

Just listened to the new Eyrie episode, when Greg talked about the danger of models getting mixed up I was surprised no one mentioned that that happened in the episode. In the final scene in the clock tower, Elisa switches outfits between shots. It happens, it's not a big deal, but Greg is usually hyper-aware of animation errors.

Also, in discussing Tony's role in the Dracon family, I realized he's their version of Tuco Salamanca. Young hothead is given command of his own district and isn't prepared to deal with the wild card that comes his way. I don't know if Dracon gets high on his own supply, but I wouldn't put it past him.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 2:59:20 pm EDT from 64.106.38.254

ANTIYONDER> "there is more than enough for one on Zehra Fazal"

I'm not sure she merits an entry at this point. Yes, she partially inspired the design of Shari and, in a perfect world, if we ever get new animated material she'll do the voice. But Zehra still lacks any official involvement with the property. And I love Zehra, I think she's wonderful and amazing... but until her name appears in the credits for something officially put out by Disney or licensed by Disney, I don't think it's appropriate.

Let's say, for example, we do get new animated episodes and Shari is brought in. Then let's say that, for whatever reason, Zehra isn't available. That's not fair to the voice actor that Greg Weisman and Jamie Thomason would end up casting. There's a reason Greg, years ago, stopped sharing his fantasy casting for comic characters. And why those were taken off of GargWiki. Zehra is mentioned prominently on the Shari entry because it's a little bit more than just fantasy casting... she inspired the design. But that's not enough to warrant an entry, it's just trivia. At this point in time, Zehra is another fan... albeit a high profile one.

I can name several fans who have had cameos throughout the SLG Bad Guys series and they don't have GargWiki entries.

Thank you for your edits and contributions to GargWiki, by the way.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 12:24:05 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Todd > I never thought that Greg's issue of the Marvel comic would be the VERY next one, as issue 11 (the final one published) sets up a major storyline that likely would have been addressed in the following issue (and I suspect would have taken at least two issues to resolve). But I figured Greg's would have been #14 at the latest. I had no idea they were working so far ahead of the publication date, and that so much unused material was created.

I was always curious how they would have transitioned from the ongoing storyline that Marvel had been telling for the first eleven issues (which was more or less a continuous series of events that took place between seasons 1 and 2 of the show) into the World Tour.

Interesting to note that if released as originally planned, "Reunion" would have been released the same day that "The Gathering, Part Two" aired. And just eight days before we saw Coldstone again in "Possession."

I also note that veteran Marvel artist Marie Severin (known for her 1960s and 1970s work on Doctor Strange and Hulk, among others, as well as for co-creating Spider-Woman) was to have drawn "Reunion." I'm not sure if this means Amanda Conner was leaving the title entirely, or if Severin was just a fill-in artist (I believe she was semi-retired by that point). It would be interesting to see this alternate version of "Reunion" (if any art was actually completed), although I doubt Greg would ever allow a different version of the story to be published as it might confuse the canon for some people. Perhaps it could make for an interesting "extra" in an eventual collection of the SLG issues. Although there is also that 'Twilight Zone' twist he mentioned that he wants to keep secret as he still may use it someday.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 11:33:17 am EDT from 24.46.160.191

Well here's the article: https://gargwiki.net/Roy_Sato

Gave thanks to Craig in the discussion page.

And if there is no objection, I was going to transfer info from Shari's article since there is more than enough for one on Zehra Fazal. Was going to do so this weekend.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 10:15:45 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

CRAIG - Thanks for alerting us to the latest "Voices From the Eyrie" podcast. I'd suspected that one would show up this week, since the last one (for "Upgrade") was two weeks ago, and look forward to listening to it.

Thanks, also, for the solicitations about the never-made Marvel comics. I was also surprised that the lost "World Tour" story featuring Coldstone was to be #17; I'd gotten the impression, from Greg Weisman's past statements, that it was to have been the very next one. I was also amused by the story about Brooklyn investigating a strange movie-making crew (with a hint of a "Ghostbusters" take-off), and would like to know more about it.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 9:13:37 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

An interesting post on the Gargoyles subreddit outlines some solicitations for unmade issues of the 1990s Marvel series: https://www.reddit.com/r/gargoyles/comments/160lzjn/marvel_comics_run_unpublished_issue_descriptions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1

The most surprising thing to me is that Greg’s “Reunion” script was going to be issue 17! It’s crazy that they were apparently working six months ahead of release date, if the issue 17 script was written when #11 was the final published issue before cancelation. The #15 description seems to indicate that the World Tour would have been addressed even before Greg took over writing duties, although the idea of the group returning to Manhattan is odd and seems like it would contradict the TV show.

It would be cool if some of these materials could be located and included in Dynamite’s eventual collection of the Marvel materials.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 1:14:48 am EDT from 166.198.251.4

Thanks.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 12:23:08 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Antiyonder > Roy was going by production numbers, not the airing order. The episodes he's credited on are "Awakening: Part Two" (4319-002), "Awakening: Part Five" (4319-004), "Her Brother's Keeper" (4319-012), and "Leader of the Pack" (4319-017). (Yes, I'm a nerd.)
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 12:16:07 am EDT from 24.46.160.85

So I was setting up to do a page for Roy Sato on the wiki. According to his letter to #4 of the Marvel Comics series, he specified his work at being animator for Episodes 2, 4, 12 and 17.

So the first three are Awakening Part Two and Four, plus Her Brother's Keeper. 17 is A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time, but the wiki credit doesn't mention Walt Disney Animation Japan. His second imdb credit says Leader of the Pack, but then the episode following is 18, The Mirror.

Any idea what his 4th episode was?
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 12:08:18 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Speaking of Voices from the Eyrie, the newest installment dropped tonight, focusing on "Protection." Entertaining discussion as always. Of course, the (in)famous "jalapeña" is addressed at length. Although Jen and the Gregs all have some fun joking about the giant bags of flour in Mr. Jaffe's store, they don't address the absurdity of room service serving an entire jar of jalapeños (and a giant one at that--that thing is like twice the size of Elisa's hands!). Another thing alluded to on the podcast but not really explained is the moment where Broadway uses "jalapeña" earlier in the episode, before Goliath's astounded utterance at the end (presumably) turns it into a running catch phrase within the clan. I've never been quite clear on why Broadway says it here.

Some other fun "jalapeña" facts from me, in honor of this episode:

Although Greg (jokingly?) claims on the podcast that the brand name of the jalapeños in the episode is "Jalapeña Brand Jalapeños" (thus explaining Goliath's utterance), the label on the jar in the episode reads "A La Jala Pino."

Goliath and Elisa are tied for the most utterances of "jalapeña," with three each throughout the series. Hudson comes in second, with two. Broadway, Brooklyn and Lexington have one each.

There has yet to be a "jalapeña" in the Dynamite comics (although on the podcast, Greg promises there will be), and the only two in the SLG run were in "Nightwatch" and "Reunion," both of which were of course 1990s scripts originally. So Greg to date hasn't written in a new "jalapeña" since the TV show ended (at least, not in any of the issues we've seen so far).
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 25, 2023 12:07:40 am EDT from 24.46.160.85

Yes, it was probably another of those moments mentioned in "Voices From the Eyrie" where the animation studio got the wrong idea and it was too late to correct them on that.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2023 8:53:46 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Sorry for the double post. Meant to add: Immediately after this, it starts to rain, and Elisa says, "Didn't you say there were caves around here?" And they then go on a long walk in the rain to the viking/Archmage cave! So the clear implication is that the thing that looks like a cave entrance and is implied to be the rookery...isn't a cave, I guess? It's very difficult to determine what the intention there was. It's one of the most beautifully animated episodes of the entire show, but I guess that moment is not particularly well executed.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2023 8:49:57 pm EDT from 24.46.162.27

Todd > Yes, that potential discrepancy with the rookery was mentioned by several people here when "Idyll or Nightmare" was first released. The best explanation was that when Angela asks Goliath, "What used to be here?" she's referring to the crater they all climb into at that point, not the cave entrance. Looking back at it, it is a somewhat confusing scene. The crater as depicted does not appear nearly big enough to have contained the rookery we saw in "Awakening" (or in "Idyll or Nightmare" for that matter). And Angela does indeed seem to be talking specifically about the cave when she says, "It must have been beautiful" (she's looking directly into the cave when she says this line, and is shot with the viewer looking out of the cave toward her, with the cave entrance framing her, drawing extra attention to it).
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2023 8:47:15 pm EDT from 24.46.162.27

I rewatched "Shadows of the Past" today. One odd feature about it - when they visit the former site of Castle Wyvern, it looks as if the rookery cave is still there; at least, I spotted what looked like the entrance to a cavern. This contradicts the revelation in #2 of the Dynamite comic that the rookery was moved along with the rest of the castle, of course; I wonder if this could be another animation error. (It'd certainly make more sense for the episode if the rookery cave was no longer there, to explain why Goliath and his companions didn't take shelter in it from the storm, instead of heading for the Archmage's cave, which was further away.) This could make a good discussion point when "Voices from the Eyrie" reaches "Shadows of the Past".

And, yes, it'll be worth seeing the first two seasons anew through the light of the events in "Dark Ages". [SPOILER] I wonder whether Angel's abduction by Culen will help sow the seeds that will develop into her hatred of humans as Demona. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2023 7:57:39 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Jurgan> I watched "The Price" a week or two ago (binging Gargoyles constantly lately!) and I had the exact same thought. Love that Dark Ages is putting new spin on old episodes.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Thu, Aug 24, 2023 10:26:37 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Thank you for this amazing blog!
Tree Service Clarksville TN - [buluksura at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 10:26:35 pm EDT from 120.29.76.143

[SPOILER] Verity's Wind Ceremony in "Dark Ages". [/SPOILER]

I just rewatched "The Price" last night, and Hudson's line about how "all of my clan are dead and dust" hits harder now.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 10:22:50 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Ed: True, but my thinking is that Oberon's Mirror was a Third Race avenue of travel/communication, not necessarily for the mortals living there. Titania does demonstrate a fondness for Goliath's clans, and Puck and Alex are clever ones (even with their current constraints) so we'll see.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 9:39:20 pm EDT from 72.216.220.229

Phoenician: Mind you, there are more reliable ways of leaving Avalon - as Oberon demonstrated in “The Gathering”. It might be a good excuse for Titania to check in on her grandson a couple of weeks (to her) after her last visit. My hunch is that Puck and Alex could find a way to get a message through without a great deal of fuss.

Masterdramon: Yes, I’m not saying the creator is always the *best* writer but for good or ill I’d always defend their absolute right to do what they want - whether it’s to let someone else take it over or drive it into the ground and salt the earth themselves.

The case of superheroes is an odd one because although you get amazing runs, there are also some truly dreadful ones too. One of the things that really turns me off the Marvel and DC universes is how it’s a mishmash of these wildly differing authorial voices with little coherency of vision and no ability to enact permanent changes.

I prefer where writers have - in the manner of Malory, Tennyson and White with the Arthurian canon - reworked the stories into something in their own right. Newer franchises like TMNT and Sonic are better at this than Marvel/DC although obviously there are a few good examples, like SSM and YJ.

I guess I’m far more drawn to individual creators’ work (or, on occasion, teams of creators) than I am to franchises in themselves.
Ed
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 4:46:37 pm EDT from 31.94.7.122

Todd> Oh right! That too!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 1:51:39 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

MATT - And, on a more somber note, there'll most likely be [SPOILER] Verity's Wind Ceremony in "Dark Ages". [/SPOILER]

MASTERDRAMON - I recall it was Brooklyn and Lexington, actually. (The "Broadway and Lexington" part, though, reminds me of an occasion some years ago when someone submitted a question to "Ask Greg" about an episode of "The Goliath Chronicles" he claimed to remember, where Xanatos betrayed the gargoyles in order to protect his family from an anti-gargoyle mob, and all of them were killed - alongside Elisa and the Mutates - except for Broadway and Lexington, who were captured and sent off to a lab, grieving over the deaths of the rest of the clan. Needless to say, the question was immediately deleted as an idea (and an especially dark one) masquerading as a question, followed by a discussion in the Station 8 comment room along the lines of "We don't know what's more disturbing - that this person tried to pass off his own idea as if it was an actual episode, or that he came up with such a bloodthirsty end for the series". It was definitely worse than even the rejected "the clan leaves Manhattan and scatters" ending for "Angels in the Night".)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 1:26:05 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I'm really looking forward to the commitment ceremony. I love all the gargoyle culture and biology stuff. So, it'll be fun to see a new facet of their culture. Similarly, I'm looking forward to the hatching of Egwardo as, I suspect, there are some traditions associated with the hatching of eggs as well. And I'm loving the idea of a priestess role among the clan.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 10:02:39 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

It's also worth pointing out that this is a "commitment ceremony," not a wedding. Obviously there are many elements in parallel (officiated by a spiritual authority, the role of "Second" seeming to be roughly equivalent to Best Man/Maid of Honor, etc.) but for all we know, a big extended family gathering may not be a traditional part of the ritual.

Jurgan: That was part of the scrapped TGC ending that was discussed at length last week. I think it's pretty safe to say no inspiration is going to be drawn from it.

[B]Ed:/B] I think the "consent" term is key here, as there are many cases where a showrunner voluntarily steps back and the quality of the product stays consistent or even improves. Many of the best Adventure Time episodes, for example, happened after Pendleton Ward largely handed off the reins to Adam Muto.

While being the creator of a property will always give someone a unique and irreplaceable vantage point on it, there's no guarantee that it makes you the best person to write that property. Far and away the best series in the Fate franchise (Fate/Zero) was written by Gen Urobuchi, not Kinoko Nasu. And obviously, over the course of their many decades of existence, characters like Superman or Batman have been written by a number of talented pens in ways their original creators would've never dreamt of.

Please don't get me wrong...I do think honoring a creator's right to their own work must be absolutely sacrosanct. But I think there's also something to be said for a creator equally having the freedom to step back and let someone else play with their toys, if they so choose.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Wed, Aug 23, 2023 12:12:35 am EDT from 98.150.138.224

Avalon already sent some of our cast to one wedding in Paris . . . and sure, there was plenty of shenanigans in that ceremony for our heroes to get involved in, but what's to stop the island from sending others to Angela & Broadway's Commitment Ceremony? For that matter, who's to say what rationale catches the whims of a mystical island in terms of said island sending individuals where they "need to be" (save for Greg Weisman, lol)?

It'd be lovely if some of Angela's rookery siblings (and parents) were in attendance, but I figure the real hang up in their attendance might not be the natural complexities of traveling the world via Avalon skiff, but in the current lack of communication between the Avalon and Manhattan clans. No internet at Oberon's Castle, far as we know (unlike at Knight's Spur).

Which means, for anyone on Avalon to have a chance to make the Ceremony, someone on the island has to want off, for whatever the inclination. And from there, then the island can get people where they need to be (because, overthinking aside, who knows: the island just might like sending people to weddings, hehehe).
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 8:31:33 pm EDT from 72.216.220.229

CRAIG - Yes, the logistics are another reason why I'm doubtful about the Avalon clan being present.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 7:55:03 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

ED> I think "Babylon 5" is the greatest piece of science fiction ever put to film... and as much as I enjoyed "The Road Home", I agree that I am sick of [SPOILER] multiverse stories in general [/SPOILER]. I give the movie a solid 9 out of 10, I am beyond ecstatic to have it, and I loved in in spite of all that... but if everybody would please stop doing [SPOILER] multiverse stories [/SPOILER], that'd be great.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 4:28:16 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Greg: Yeah, nothing in there I'd disagree with. Like I say - empathy. Which is not the same as sympathy, still less giving them a soft ride. And for what it's worth, I have what always seemed to be a quite controversial view of Lucas which is basically - his toys, his rules. He built the ship - if he wants to crash it into the rocks it then that is also his prerogative. Don't get me wrong, of the five films I've seen, three were dreadful and "Clones" especially is almost uncannily dreadful in every conceivable way. But I think if you're the creator, you have the right to fulfil your vision and I wouldn't have wanted someone to step in and take the reins without his consent.

Jurgan: I think Sorkin was clean after season 2 but he was finding the deadlines tricky and it was an incredibly expensive production to keep delaying - a lot of expensive talent. I think the network tried to push for big cost savings and he jumped instead which probably backfired on them. Having said that, I do think there was a clear drop in quality in S3 and chunks of S4 and I think it's a real shame that Rob Lowe was sidelined as he was because I thought Sam was a really important part of the ensemble and Will never quite replaced his energy. I think mid-S6 they basically began creating a quite different show - the White House stuff never really recovered in quality (and I think Richard Schiff still has strongly negative views about how Toby's arc ended) but the campaign stories, built significantly around new characters like Smits and Alda with only a handful of pre-existing characters, had a real buzz about them and were well told.

Incidentally, the new 'Babylon 5' movie called to mind a recent discussion. [SPOILER] The plot focuses on time-travel and alternate dimensions. While the film was a nice nostalgia trip, really well-made and good fun with one particularly jaw-dropping set-piece, it did absolutely nothing to convince me that multiverse stories as a genre dial down the consequences and sense of jeopardy hugely and are intrinsically far less interesting than sticking with a single timeline. The whole Marvel-style "What If?" thing never really appealed to me that much. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 4:11:30 pm EDT from 31.94.3.41

The West Wing is an interesting parallel to our discussion. It was very much the brainchild of Aaron Sorkin, but he left after season 4 (I think due to a drug problem) and a new writing team had to pick up. It didn't help that he ended the season on a massive cliffhanger that would have to be resolved by the new people. So much of seasons 5 and 6 were a depressing slog, but the cast were so talented that it still managed to work okay. And season 7 was considered roughly on par with the Sorkin years. I think the main difference is that NBC was still making pretty good money off West Wing even after its prime, while Gargoyles was already on its last legs when TGC was airing.

Regarding the Avalon trip, wasn't there at one point a plan to give Lex and Broadway their own world tour? I assume that's still going to happen sooner or later.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 2:39:30 pm EDT from 64.106.38.254

The whole "Avalon sends you where you need to be" premise makes future uses of those characters an interesting challenge. If some Manhattan clan members were to travel to Avalon to invite the Avalon clan to the commitment ceremony, wouldn't they then potentially be stuck on a months-long World Tour when they tried to return to Manhattan? For that matter, would Gabriel & co. also not be able to guarantee a direct trip to Manhattan if they left Avalon? Would the ceremony have to be postponed indefinitely while they waited for some catastrophe in NY that allowed everyone to finally return?
Craig
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 10:14:32 am EDT from 24.46.162.114

One other thought I've had about the upcoming issues - namely, Broadway and Angela's commitment ceremony. I wondered whether the Avalon clan (including Princess Katharine and Tom) would attend.

Maybe not, since it would make the stage extra-crowded (especially that close to the end of "Here in Manhattan"). (Not to mention the logistics of bringing them to the Eyrie Building from Manhattan). It could offer some good dramatic potential, though. Hudson, the trio, Coldstone and Coldfire getting to meet the now-hatched-and-grown-up eggs, for example; that could certainly make a moving moment (and reinforce Hudson's big line from "The Gathering Part One"). (I doubt that Coldstone would be too thrilled to see Princess Katharine, of course. He's displayed a lot of bitterness towards humans, and would remember the Princess largely for her dislike of the gargoyles in the period before the sack of the castle. Goliath and Angela could point out that Katharine's changed since then, but I'm not sure he'd be that ready to accept it.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 22, 2023 9:43:22 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Craig> After reading "The Disaster Artist" everything that went horribly wrong begins and ends with Tommy Wiseau.

Greg brought up Dexter which brings to mind Scott Buck. While it is certainly true that executive decisions can seriously harm a show's production and creative structure, sometimes you get a name attached to so many undeniable stinkers like that end run on Dexter, the first season of Iron Fist and all of Marvel's Inhumans (Ike Perlmutter is also to blame for that one), that sometimes you just have to wonder.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 9:23:55 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

ANTIYONDER - Thanks for the Gummi Bears article. I got a peek at it, and it looks like a good start.

I'm certainly hoping for more issues (if renumbered) past #12, though the fact that we're getting "Dark Ages" and the Halloween Special indicates that Dynamite wants to do more. Those are good signs.

I also noted that the Halloween Special is scheduled to be released before #11 and #12, so presumably it'll be taking extra care to avoid spoilers for those two issues.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 8:18:00 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Well, it's certainly a curiosity. "Fascinating" in that it's an indelible part of the series history for better or (obviously) worse, and it does have many of the same actors, some of the same writers, same composer, etc. Its existence in and of itself is fascinating to me. Even Greg has chosen to pay tribute to one line of dialogue from it, so it's had a very slight impact on the canon. It's fascinating for that reason, and also fascinating in the same way that 'The Room' or 'Plan 9 from Outer Space' are fascinating, in that there's an appeal to wondering how a creative endeavor could go so horribly wrong.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 7:59:00 pm EDT from 24.46.161.2

CRAIG> "it's just a fascinating curiosity"

Now that is giving it way too much credit, I think.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 7:49:39 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

I've been bothered far less by Goliath Chronicles since we started getting new material in 2006. Now instead of being a missed opportunity, it's just a fascinating curiosity. True, it's unpleasant that many people watching on Disney+ won't know the history. But the good news is, I think today in 2023, it's far easier to tell people, "Season 3 was done by a different creative team and isn't canon," and most people immediately know what you're saying. There's more understanding of the TV medium today than there was in 1997.

Anyway, on another topic, the first page of "Three Brothers" has again disappeared from my copy of Dark Ages #1 after previously being there. What the heck?
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 7:27:26 pm EDT from 24.46.161.2

ED> "I agree with Craig that we should have some empathy with the TGC crew - can't be nice that a year of your working life is still being roundly panned nearly 30 years later."

The Star Wars prequels, Star Trek V, Battlefield Earth, Nothing But Trouble, Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, Jaws the Revenge, The Garbage Pail Kids Movie, Bio-Dome, Howard the Duck, The Room, etc.. I could go on. I am sure the final seasons of "Game of Thrones", "Dexter", and others will always remain infamous.

I do agree that we can dislike or hate movies and TV shows for years and decades without making it personal, though. I've never seen a negative comment about TGC that called out anybody by name... and let's not start. That's where the empathy comes in. But we can critique TGC as a piece of art and discuss where and how it fails. Personally, I'm not a fan of discussing TGC at all, and thankfully at this point, it's been so long since I've seen any of it that it's mostly an unpleasant memory... like Dexter becoming a lumberjack.

Aw well, I can't think of anything better to punctuate this point with: https://youtu.be/Lr-tiLHVjIM
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 6:51:26 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

Antiyonder> Artists and animators get work where they can it would seem. I remember reading about artists who worked on Thundercats Roar moving on to Helluva Boss not long after and those shows can't be anymore different.

On the topic of Elisa, when I wrote up a review on "Her Brother's Keeper" I talked a bit about the deconstruction of the secret keeper role she occupies and how that hurts her relationship with Derrick. I pointed out that the gargoyles were at one point public figures and would like to be so again in the future, but they left the decision up to Elisa on whether to reveal their existence and that had consequences in the future.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 6:41:18 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

I agree with Craig that we should have some empathy with the TGC crew - can't be nice that a year of your working life is still being roundly panned nearly 30 years later. On the other hand, it's frustrating that casual viewers on Disney+ will still treat it as the third season and so the franchise will probably always be tainted by it to some degree.

Todd: Interesting speculation. I hadn't realised the #12 blurb was out and what caught my attention was the "FINAL ISSUE of this series" comment which suggests we will be getting a new #1 instead of #13. This is fine - while I quite like the simplicity of a single number system, it's great to get new readers on board. Having said that, I hope "Season 5" as it will effectively be doesn't need to get quite as exposition-heavy.

Craig: It doesn't shock me that Elisa doesn't have other close friends (that we've seen). She works antisocial hours, she's by nature quite secretive and suspicious and independent - quite a loner. Her wish to keep the gargoyles from Matt because of liking being special speaks to someone who is lonely. But even if she had other friendships in 1994, two years of spending huge chunks of her non-working life supporting the gargoyles -- and the rest of her time lying, by omission if nothing else, about their existence -- was always likely to extinguish her other relationships.

Antiyonder: Looks great.
Ed
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 6:04:38 pm EDT from 5.159.125.189

So one of Gargoyles' storyboard artists, Brad Rader is storyboard revisionist for the current run of Beavis & Butthead.

That's cool. Huh, huh.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 4:35:37 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Well started on this. My Gummi Bear article: https://gargwiki.net/Adventures_of_the_Gummi_Bears
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 3:24:12 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Good points on why the new production team made the errors it did. I remember Greg Weisman indicating that he didn't hold any animosity towards his successors, who were placed in an almost-impossible situation.

Here's a speculation on events in the last couple of issues of "Here in Manhattan", based on the solicitations.

[SPOILER] The solicitations stated that "a desperate Dino Dracon is about to make one last play to take over all of New York City" (#11) and that the gargoyles will "need to prevent New York's crime bosses from combining their resources to wreak havoc on the city" (#12).

In #8, we saw the first cracks forming in Dino's scheme to pit the rival crime families against each other (Slaughter noting that these frame-ups seem a little too convenient). I've a theory that the trio will rescue Rosaria and Stephen (in the process, confronting their kidnappers in the "trio masks"), based on the solicitation for #10, resulting in their crime boss relatives discovering who was really responsible for the kidnapping. the result: the rival crime bosses re-unite, returning to their original plan to team up against Dino, before he started on his "divide and conquer" scheme.

Dino engages in a bit of quick thinking, however, and convinces his rivals that they don't have the luxury of fighting him when there's a bunch of winged creatures in the city bent on opposing them all. (I wonder how much about the gargoyles' oath to protect the city will get out from Goliath's hearing in the next issue. Maybe not much, officially, since the solicitation for the Halloween special indicates a similar response to the gargoyles that we've already seen; Halloween being the one time they can safely venture out with nobody knowing that they're gargoyles, and the Quarrymen launching a new attack. But maybe enough to convince the heads of the rival families that the gargoyles are bad to business - bad enough that they can get back to going after Dino later.) Which results in an alliance that the gargoyles will be doing battle with.

though I don't see any major steps for "public perception of the gargoyles" taking place in "Here in Manhattan" (again, because of the solicitation for the Halloween special), I can imagine their defeating this "organized crime alliance" would have some consequences for later adventures. I doubt we'll be seeing an official public alliance between the NYPD and the Manhattan clan in the immediate future, but maybe some "behind closed doors" discussions. With each succeeding issue, we'll probably get a clearer picture of the most likely outcome. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 9:23:19 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Fair enough. Besides, all terrible creative decisions can usually be traced back to the executives anyway.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 6:33:42 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew > That's probably true. But while it's easy to crap on the show, it's important to remember that Greg has always encouraged compassion toward the people who worked on The Goliath Chronicles, due to the impossible conditions Disney gave them. This sort of ties into what's going on now with the WGA strike. Writers and artists being given impossible deadlines and terrible budgets are inevitably going to produce subpar work. Furthermore, I'm sure their working conditions and hours were absolutely terrible in trying to produce even a project as semi-professional as it ended up being, given the circumstances. So, in that sense, the creative team really shouldn't be blamed.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 21, 2023 12:34:23 am EDT from 209.140.48.0

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