Dynamite seems to contract a lot of Italian artists. All the color artists so far have been from Italian Arancia Studios, as well as the main series covers by Lucio Parrillo, Dark Ages covers by Mirka Andolfo, and now the Halloween Special with art by Diego Bonesso and a cover by Matteo Lolli...and the upcoming 'Quest' with Pasquale Qualano as the main artist.

[SPOILER] I was overall really happy with the art in this issue (minor quibbles like Goliath's four fingers aside). In particular, Travis Marshall (a favorite of mine) finally looks like he did on the TV show! This is one model Kambadais just hasn't quite gotten right IMO, nor did Hedgecock in the SLG books, so it's nice to see Travis finally looking like himself in a comic.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 2:44:32 pm EDT from 24.46.161.170

Hi Morrand, enjoyed your input on the Holiday Special.

[SPOILER] Yeah, I doubt this is the last we'll see of the Quarrymen, even in th short term. Unless he's made as Jon Canmore while in custody, I fully expect Castaway to make bail and try to spin himself as a victim of 'political correctness gone mad' or some such.

I mean, the Q-Men were technically just standing around before Gnash got the drop on them, and the GTF would only have his word that they were planning anything more nefarious than a peaceful protest. Arguably, this works out better for the Q-men in the long term than if Castaway had gone through with his original plan of 'cave in a bunch of random bystanders skulls and hope it somehow generates good plublicity'.

One wonders if this wasn't simply a desperate attempt by Jonny to satisfy his private vendetta by murdering Goliath and damn the optics? [/SPOILER]
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 2:14:46 pm EDT from 217.183.44.235

How about that, I've finally gotten caught up to current issues and can comment in time, at least a little bit.

I don't think I've seen it in cleartext so far, but I hope it's fair to confirm that the Halloween Special does sort of spoil the "Here In Manhattan" storyline, at least from issue #9 (which means my own comments are likely to do the same derivatively).

[SPOILER] Independent thoughts first: I absolutely, shamelessly, did an Ed Grimley dance at the end of this one. Not just a beautiful issue, but a true delight to have things turning out aces for the Manhattan clan.

I don't suppose that'll last, but you take your joy when you find it.

The artwork is just gorgeous. Right off the bat, you have the three Timedancers on the tower and you can read their thoughts just from how they're drawn, and then in the next panel you have this spread of lower Manhattan just glowing in the night.

Gnash scores a lot of candy on his first-ever stop. He, himself, points this out a little while later.

It's interesting to me that Gnash's new friends have decided to give themselves gargoyle names, as though that is a known thing. Possibly spoiling a minor detail yet to come from the main storyline. (It's obvious from a couple of pages later that Goliath's not the only one the public knows about, anyway. Beyond general appearances, I mean; the various costumes show that much.)

I agree with Hudson. I, too, would like to see Goliath on "Celebrity Hockey."

So we run into a couple of toughs with bad attitudes and low-watt brains. Terry gives away that these are wanna-be Quarrymen. From a strict storytelling standpoint, that is probably for the best: having the primary villains just be cheap bullies isn't setting up much of a conflict.

The subway is kind of cool, actually. I'm glad one of Gnash's new friends apparently had an extra fare on their Metrocard for him. I do believe this marks only the second time our protagonists have been inside the subway. (Also, quick cameo for Mr. Clean in the subway.)

So now we get to the street fair with everyone having a good time (except the one cop who knows where he is; someday, I want the guy who says, "you just jinxed it," to be completely wrong about that). In comes the oddly-named Careless Jones, who sets up a fun bit of wordplay about a "werefox" as well as setting up Elisa's entry. And before long we have everyone dancing, including Lexington...and of course that's our signal that Bad Things are about to happen.

If I may be petty for a moment, the entry of the Quarrymen makes it look like they have assembled an army of dads and a few aunts. That figures. I will agree with the change to helmets over hoods: a boss-looking helmet's probably going to convince at least a few more people to sign up.

And now we come to the point in the story where Gnash shines. He and the two beasts are able to scare most of the dads and aunts away on first appearance, as they would. And of the remainder, Gnash ably deals with them. He's not just a petulant kid anymore. He's a fighter. That's awesome. We've been seeing him suggest a lot of experience from bouncing around in time but it's nice to see it gel in this fight. And given the prevalence of electric weapons throughout the series, nice to see him not only think to insulate his hilt, but also insulate the hilt of his costume sword. Kid's sharp, I tell you what.

I'm really liking Gnash now that we've gotten to know him a bit better.

Odd graphic detail on his last line in this sequence, having one eye lighted. I'm not sure of the significance, although having Gnash not really bear a lot of ill will toward the leader of the group that's currently trying to kill him and his friends is one possibility. If he already knows the Quarrymen are defeated elsewhere in time, I could see that. No point in hating the dead.

And so Elisa gets to perform what is probably her most satisfying arrest in a while, and we also get to see the G.T.F. working to protect the gargoyles instead of against them (possibly another spoiler for the main storyline).

You can really see that Gnash takes after his mother. And Katana really is the mother through all of this. I'm still hoping to see her develop further as we go along.

And so we wrap up with Gnash (and Bronx and Fu-Dog) making a few new friends, and life being very good, at least for one night.

And now reading back through other people's comments: Oh, we know Careless Jones? Well, this is what I get for not finding the fandom for nearly 30 years...

I'm not worried about the characterization of the Quarrymen, myself. As mentioned, it's not out of line to have them be, well, jerks. It's possible they continue in that vein, sure. But I have to think this is setting them up for a serious upgrade of some sort--possibly even flowing out of "Quest." Time will tell.
[/SPOILER]

I had to fight the comic store a bit to get this one ordered, and it was well worth it.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 11:11:36 am EDT from 99.74.15.252

TODD> [SPOILER] 'Tis a fair point, though I'd argue a lot of real life bigotry and - for lack of a better word - dehumanization is motivated by plain old greed and self-interest. Much of modern racism as we understand it today was largely constructed after the fact to rationalize the transatlantic slave trade. Same thing with colonialism in general.

It's easier to get away with exploiting people if you can claim they're 'not really people'. [/SPOILER]
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 9:40:53 am EDT from 217.183.44.235

[SPOILER] My thoughts on the Quarrymen were less about nuances, and more about the fact that guys like Banquo, Fleance, Chaz, and Lou would be likely going after Goliath's clan even if they weren't prejudiced against gargoyles, for being protectors and crime-fighters.

Of course, as I also brought up before, the gargoyle massacres and attempted massacres in the series did have that element. Hakon and his Vikings carried out the Wyvern Massacre to keep the gargoyles from interfering with their sack of the castle. Constantine threatened the Eggs to force Princess Katharine to marry him as a way of solidifying his hold on the just-seized Scottish throne. The gargoyle massacres carried out by the early Hunters (including Constantine as a proto-Hunter) were motivated as much by politics (keep the gargoyles from supporting the opposite side in the struggles over the Scottish throne) as by hatred of the different. The slaughter of most of the Mayan gargoyles in "The Green" was carried out by looters who'd come to the pyramid to steal artifacts, and who'd have likely just as ruthlessly eliminated, say, a human archaeological team if it had shown up, to keep it quiet.

It does raise the question of how much the gargoyles' plight of being on the verge of extinction stems from "Humans fear what they do not understand", and how much of it stemmed from "Marauders and tyrants hate and eliminate whatever gets in their way." [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 9:11:57 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Jurgan >
[SPOILER]
I took the "You know I'm a man" line as functioning on several levels at once. On one level, he's playfully throwing Lex's line back in his face--"Yes, you're a gargoyle! And I'm a man. So what?" I.e., indicating that he doesn't find gargoyles to be overly alien or intimidating. On another level, it alludes to the fact that Careless Jones recognizes Lex as homosexual, and is sort of saying, "We're both men, regardless of species, so what's the big deal? Let's dance and have a little fun." And on yet another level, it's alluding to the fact that, in 1997, homosexuality was still almost as taboo as hooking up with a gargoyle in many parts of the culture. So Careless presumably understands the feeling of being an outsider.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 1:40:28 am EDT from 24.46.160.98

Also, I’m not sure Xanatos is still one of the big villains. I know he’s not a perfect saint, but really, what villainy has he done lately? The only thing I can think of is trying to steal the Stone of Destiny. That puts him in the Carmen Sandiego tier, a far cry from forcibly transforming people into monsters.
Jurgan
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 1:37:43 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

[SPOILER] "And I remember some of the discussions that have taken place in this space and others, people betting me.... betting me... that Demona was going to calm down and be less of an enemy towards the Manhattan Clan due to the "greater threat" of the Quarrymen."

Yeah, definitely not. I could see a very temporary alliance in an emergency, but nothing long-term. If anything, Demona would expect the clan to join her and get frustrated that Goliath is too stubborn to appreciate the threat. And unlike Xanatos, she would not honor any alliance and betray them at the first opportunity. The last time Goliath temporarily allied with Demona was Hunter's Moon, and that didn't exactly turn out well.

I'm not sure what to make of Castaway's latest appearance- it was certainly a shift from his more recent ones. I guess he got impatient with gradually building up a public hate group.

Most of what I would say about the Halloween issue has already been said.
Blackbeard must have had a trusty human first mate to run things during the day. I find it funny that we find out Blackbeard was a gargoyle at about the same time a new season of Our Flag Means Death comes out. Wonder if Steed Bonnet was also a gargoyle.

Speaking of gay things, Careless Jones and Lexington was a fun interaction. It's always nice to see a minor character reappear, though I thought his using the "great, great" phrase twice was overindulgent. Does he just say that all the time? Also, question: what did Jones mean by "you know I'm a man, right?" Was he saying "you know I'm a male and this is gay" or "you know I'm a human dressed as a witch?"
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Oct 22, 2023 1:30:36 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

[SPOILER]
Very interesting discussion about how the Quarrymen are presented, and I think it's a very pertinent discussion to be having given everything that's going on in the U.S. and in the world. It's an interesting idea that while the story is taking place in the 1990s, it's being told in 2023 and potentially can comment indirectly on current events. Not that bigotry, racism, or insurrection are new or novel phenomena, of course.

I'll admit that I always prefer my villains with nuance, as opposed to just being outright thugs (which is a major reason Gargoyles drew me in as a kid). Even when we're talking about racists, terrorists, what have you...there's the old adage when an actor plays a villain role and is trying to find a mindset for the character, "no one considers themselves the villain in their own story." I think probably most of us have had people in our lives the past few years who have surprised us (in a bad way) by espousing some views that make us VERY uncomfortable, whether it be relatives, friends, coworkers, etc. Ideally, I think the story SHOULD show us people in the Quarrymen like Sarah Browne. No one just wakes up in the morning and decides, "I want to be a racist jerk today." It comes from a place of fear, anger, vulnerability, insecurity, disenfranchisement, loneliness, etc. In other words, things that we all experience regularly. There's an element of "There but for the grace of God go I" that I think shouldn't be forgotten. I would be disappointed if all portrayals of the Quarrymen going forward fall along the lines of what we saw in the Halloween Special.

That being said, OF COURSE that won't be the case. This is just one story, and it was told for a very specific purpose. It was a really fun Gnash adventure, and it was seen through his eyes. There wasn't room in the 28 pages to go into a deep nuanced characterization of the bullies or Banquo & Fleance. Although now that I think about it, I really do want a character study of Banquo & Fleance...who the hell ARE these two, anyway? I'm picturing a backstory issue along the lines of "Best Man Fall" from Grant Morrison's The Invisibles...
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 11:38:44 pm EDT from 24.46.161.93

Sorry for another double-post, but I just had a thought about "Gargoyle Quest". [SPOILER] I wonder if Goliath might, in a way, welcome the opportunity to leave Manhattan in pursuit of Demona on her quest for the Three New Keys.

In "Trick-or-Treat", he's clearly not too comfortable with the new state of things, the celebrity status that he and the clan now have - both in his discussion about it with Hudson and when he's in the DJ booth. (He's even doing all that he can to avoid being interviewed by Travis Marshall.) He wanted to make progress in gargoyle-human relations, of course, and a major step has happened here, but all the same, I get the impression that he doesn't welcome everyone staring at him and his clan like that. Though he's more at ease when it's talking to just one human, like "Careless" - and is definitely happy to dance with Elisa again.

Heading abroad to stop Demona would get him away from all those staring eyes (we'll assume that his departure isn't going to get media coverage), and he might find that a relief. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 8:00:30 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

BISHANSKY - [SPOILER] [Let's be honest, the reason the Quarrymen likely became the main villains of "The Goliath Chronicles" is because "The Journey" was the script that Greg wrote to open the season. Hypothetically, had Greg and his team left the second season after turning in the script for "Leader of the Pack" and the TGC creative team was brought in, Coyote and the Pack might have been the most frequent villains of that season.]

I've suspected the same thing myself. Very good point.

Of course, I also think that the Quarrymen seemed all the more important in "The Goliath Chronicles" because of the anti-gargoyle attitude that they represented; there were many episodes which didn't feature them, or which gave them only a bit role, but the hostility towards the "Gargoyles" was a major element. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 7:46:05 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER] To me the Quarrymen are more of a danger because of what they represent rather than who they are, and what they are is a fearful, violent bigotry that refuses to change and refuses to look inward on themselves and what their actions might do.

That every time some public speaker, media spokesperson or politician speaks out against gargoyles, in their minds it legitimizes any action they want to take against them or their allies or their admirers. A "who cares if some people got hurt? They were gargoyle-sympathizers in the first place!" kind of mindset. An unfortunate truth we're seeing these days is that all it takes is a few words to inspire paranoia and violence. And that's what makes the Quarrymen dangerous. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 5:06:59 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

TODD> [SPOILER] The Goliath Chronicles colored perceptions of the Quarrymen in many ways. I think one of them is that a lot of people assumed, even under Greg's pen, that they'd be higher on the villain totem pole than they actually are. The top three villains are Demona, Thailog, and Xanatos. Easily. By far. After that, we get into the Pack, the Dracons, Coldsteel, the Weird Sisters, the Archmage, the Illuminati, the Quarrymen, and so on and so forth. Depending on the story being told. The Illuminati might be by and large a greater scope villain, and Xanatos and Thailog are members... but I'd place Xanatos and Thailog themselves on that totem pole above the Illuminati. And definitely above the Quarrymen. [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] And I remember some of the discussions that have taken place in this space and others, people betting me.... betting me... that Demona was going to calm down and be less of an enemy towards the Manhattan Clan due to the "greater threat" of the Quarrymen. Well... I never once thought that, even for a moment. And I think the announcement of "Quest" proves I was correct not to think it. We still haven't seen Demona's response to the Quarrymen. But at this point in time, I would not be surprised if it falls between using them as fuel for her overall argument and not taking them seriously because she views them as idiots... useful idiots are otherwise. Witness her amusement at Goliath being placed "on trial" in "Everywhere". [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] Let's be honest, the reason the Quarrymen likely became the main villains of "The Goliath Chronicles" is because "The Journey" was the script that Greg wrote to open the season. Hypothetically, had Greg and his team left the second season after turning in the script for "Leader of the Pack" and the TGC creative team was brought in, Coyote and the Pack might have been the most frequent villains of that season [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 3:19:10 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

TODD> [SPOILER] Okay, now that you put it like that, I do actually see your point regarding the Q-Men's 'rank-and-file' Banquo and Fleance are mercenraies, and neither Lou or Chaz seemed to have had much problem working for a "bat winged freak" when they were getting something out of it. It does make Castaway's 'inner circle' feel a bit more like a buncha goons he's hired than true believers in his crusade.

Admittedly, that would bother me more if the Quarrymen were being positioned as THE overarching villains of the series like they were on TGS. But as it stands, they're just one set of antagonists among many. [/SPOILER]
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 1:33:36 pm EDT from 217.183.44.235

Quest #1> [SPOILER] I hope this arc will finally give us a chance to see the Mayan Clan (or some of its members at least) again as "Religious Studies 101" did. They are a favorite of mine and the only clan we've not seen since the animated series. I'm really wanting a follow up on the Mayan Sun Amulet and Jade and Turquesa's mission in particular. However, I suspect it will be Zafiro and/or Obsidiana who show up in Manhattan if any of them do ala the Radio Play. We will see. Aside from one of the New Keys being somehow associated with the Mayan Clan, it'd be fun to have another sitting in the London Clan's magic shop. It'd provide a way to get Amp and Lex together again. And a big plus for both these angles is to have Demona's perspective on these other clans. So many questions remain there. Do these clans know about her? Does she know about them? What is the relationship there, if any? [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Sat, Oct 21, 2023 10:22:43 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Sorry for the triple post, but:

[SPOILER] "Voices From the Eyrie"'s "Twitter" page posted a bit more information about the upcoming "Gargoyle Quest" - the biggie being that the Three New Keys to Power will turn any humans within range into Demona's puppets. It looks as if a bit more of "Religious Studies 101" is going to become canon. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 9:21:05 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Sorry about that; I should have proof-read the "SPOILER" tag.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 8:20:05 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPIOILER] My point isn't "the Quarrymen are coming across as simplistic thugs". Castaway is certainly coming across as driven by fanatical hatred rather than by conventional super-villain mentality. The point I've been trying to make is that when the most prominent gargoyles in Manhattan - indeed the only ones whom the public are familiar with - are protectors, the "thuggish" sorts are likely to be odds with them even if racial hatred didn't exist, which could potentially blur the motivations of the "rank-and-file" members.

As I recall in the FOX "X-Men" series, there were many mutants who weren't super-heroes or super-villains, who just wanted to live quietly and whose mutancy consisted of being covered with fur (for example) rather than having super-powers, and whom the Friends of Humanity were portrayed as ruthlessly hunting down the same way they'd hunt down the X-Men. That element effectively brought across that their hatred was aimed at mutants for being mutants. This was similarly why I wondered whether it might help if the Quarrymen were portrayed as hunting down gargoyles who weren't interested in crime-fighting (of a sort like Leo and Una at the start of "M.I.A.").

On the Quarrymen as portrayed in "The Journey": I think it made sense to have a lot of them being ordinary people at that point. To them, the gargoyles aren't a race; they're more like cryptids that turned out to be real - and large and scary, at that. They'd be fearing them the same way a lot of humans fear wolves or mountain lions or sharks - even more, because they don't yet have scientific information available about gargoyles, the way we have scientific information about those real-life predators. After Goliath's hearing, of course, with it being made clear that Goliath's intelligent enough to explain his position in the courtroom on live television and converse with the lawyers there, the gargoyles would indeed be perceived as a race, and anti-gargoyle activities would seem far more "hate group" as a result - meaning that the degeneration of the Quarrymen we saw in the Halloween issue would be a natural development; the people who were simply fearing for their safety would naturally leave, the ones who were much more mean-spirited would stay.

On to other matters. I don't know if anyone's commented on this, but Goliath didn't wear a costume again. He's the one member of the clan (well, Hudson hasn't, either) who's consistently not bothered with one - which makes sense to me. Costume-wearing just doesn't seem his style, though it matches the younger gargoyles' style.

I like the idea of Broadway being the gargoyle whom Alesand called "Charlemagne". It'd be especially apt for him, since Charlemagne was renowned for his size (though it was more height than bulk - he stood over six feet tall) and strength. Though, unlike Broadway, he had a high voice that his contemporaries compared to that of a twelve-year-old boy. Of course, Broadway was a lot younger when Alesand knew him and (presumably) gave him that name.... [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 8:19:27 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

TODD JENSEN> [SPOILER] I'm not sure I see your logic RE: the Quarrymen.

Castaway doesn't want to kill the Clan 'cuz they're getting in the way of his world domination schemes or undermining his criminal empire. He wants to kill them because he's a frothing bigot who believes their entire species doesn't deserve to live.

That's a hell of a long way from Tony Dracon who'd probably say his conflict with the Clan is 'strictly business', or even Wolf who's vendetta is largely with Golaith as an individual.

You might argue that the Halloween Special paints the Q-Men as simplistic thugs, and frankly I'd agree. But only 'cuz the reality is most inverterate bigots ARE simplistic thugs ILR. [/SPOILER]
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 4:17:13 pm EDT from 217.183.44.235

To be specific, spoilers for the Halloween special and I think comic #9: [SPOILER] Todd> I think there's some re-contextualizing going on here. Greg likes to write villains who are smart and pragmatic. Largely as a response to 80s bad guys who were really wasteful and dumb. But the quarrymen aren't sophisticated businessman, or tragic immortal warriors, they're a bunch of hoodlum gangsters. More akin to Tony Dracon than Xanatos.

I think there was an effort in the Journey to portray the Quarrymen recruits as being regular, scared people -- mixed with mercenaries like Banquo and Fleance to give the group a little more edge, also as a kind of turning point for Macbeth transitioning into being more of an ally for the clan. But I think it portrays what is effectively a racial supremacist/hate group as a little too sympathetic. Which is also why we have the throw away line about "mom didn't join that group after all". I think there's a concerted non-diegetic(ish) effort here to move the Quarrymen from scared regular people like Billy's mom and instead street thugs willing to pick on kids. Which is... I think far more authentic. Racial hate groups aren't trying to trick people or be subtle about it. You're either with them or against them.

Especially after Charlottesville and January 6th, I think portraying them so reasonably and sympathetically would honestly be irresponsible.

I think Greg's also dipping into kind of the... pseudo-myth aspects of racial groups with Jon Castaway in Goliath's trial. That humans have had to fight to protect themselves all through out history from violent and aggressive gargoyles.

I don't think it's *quite* at the level of the Goliath Chronicles, but I don't personally think that aspect of the Goliath Chronciles was that unfair or unrealistic, more just... monotonous and perhaps overtly simple.

Like it's possible I think to elevate the idea of a really basic bully or a one dimensional character. Hate can be profound and terrible. It's just a matter of how it's contextualized and presented. And I think this special showcases that well enough. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 12:48:08 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

Todd> [SPOILER] If you're refering to a human being turned into an armadillo, we've already seen that. Briefly. Or was Owen transformed into an aadrvark? Can't recall. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 11:11:29 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

[SPOILER]
Assuming that Phoenician is correct about the Trio and Angela's costumes...and assuming that all the characters mentioned by Alesand are characters we're already acquainted with (and that Brooklyn is the pointy-beaked gargoyle she couldn't find a name for)...it seems obvious that Broadway is "Charlemagne," and we know who "Antiope" is. So...do we think Lexington is "Alexander" or "Caesar"? The costume could go either way (unless there's a detail I'm missing). Greg has said that Lexington could read in the tenth century, so he could be Alexander...although that name seems more appropriate to Goliath, given the Thailog connection. Somehow, the idea of Goliath teaching a human child to read in the tenth century is...unexpected to me, but the fact that she's the daughter of their closest ally makes it seem more understandable. It's also interesting to me that Goliath would sit with the humans to listen to Shari's story, although perhaps he was there to supervise the young'uns and make sure they didn't get into trouble.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 10:20:26 am EDT from 24.46.162.3

Thank you to everyone who noted that [SPOILER] "Pandora" and "Trouble" were both names from the comedy development. I'd forgotten about that, but looked up Pandora in the "Ask Greg" archives and got re-acquainted with her. Another example - alongside Amp and Coco - that Greg Weisman never wastes anything. (Though I wonder how many of us, whenever we see an idea from the comedy development phase work its way in, get nervous about what might be in store for Owen. :))

As for "Krag", I recall that in #1, when they were comparing the three street thugs to the Three Stooges, they called one "Kurly"; maybe it's the same "K for C" error at work. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 9:54:33 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I just realized something.

[SPOILER] With the Quarrymen's switch from hoods to high-tech helmets, they've switched from the Klan to Stormtroopers. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 2:05:04 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

****With a rush of wind, Blaise ZIPS into the room (ala The Flash).****
Busy right now, I only have time to post my thoughts (because they take so long to write).

TRICK-OR-TREAT> [SPOILER] Time for the Halloween special! Not just an episode (or three issues of a comic) that takes place on Halloween, but a full Halloween special!

Let’s go back over the preview pages. It’s great to get more “screen time” for both Gnash and Katana. Katana is very perceptive, calling Halloween a “very confused mix of customs.” Yet it takes Brooklyn to explain to her that this isn’t just about going out or getting candy. And Gnash is a 9 year old kid...well, the gargoyle equivalent of a 9 year old kid...okay, 9 and three quarters (he’ll be the equivalent of 10 in March!). He wants to do what other kids are doing and, let’s face it, he really has no kids his age among the clan. This is something he’s probably been looking forward to since he first started living in Manhattan. I love the whole interaction this smaller family unit within the larger clan has: Katana referring to Gnash by his full name, Brooklyn calling Katana “Babe” and the way he convinces Katana to let their son go out. She doesn’t seem entirely happy about it, though, and it’s not surprising. She’s been Timedancing for decades: a more eventful, unsure, and unstable life than most, where being separated from each other for any length of time is courting trouble. Not to mention the whole “keeping track of him” aspect when he could go *anywhere* in New York City. I remarked in my preview notes I was surprised they seemed to let him go without any sort of chaperone or supervision. I can’t remember how old I was when my parents would let me go out trick-or-treating by myself, but it was older than Gnash. But I guess they have that party to go to (okay show of hands: how many, like me, thought this was another Xanatos party at the Eyrie Building at first?).

(And yeah, that shot of the Twin Towers...I don’t think it’s necessarily foreshadowing a 9/11 story (that is still years away in-universe), but it is definitely a sign of the period the comic takes place in.)

Now to our villains, Castaway and the Quarrymen (boo, hiss!). It looks like he’s got something of an “inner circle” in his group: Banquo, Fleance, Lou and Chaz. And the Q-men are going to be more reckless this year, using hammers and everything, because the clan has made “unfortunate inroads into the public’s good graces” and he wants to “provoke the creatures into showing their true colors.” I’ll have more to say on the Quarrymen and Castaway in particular later, but for now I once again remember Greg Weisman saying that the results of Goliath’s trial would require Castaway to change his strategy. It’s five months from May to October, though, and I find myself wondering if there might not be more (stopping the various crime families, foiling Demona, etc.).

We catch back up with Gnash on a street somewhere and WOW the artist pulls out all the stops here! For the most part I love the art here, especially in these crowd shots. And it’s a nice mix of costumes, from store bought to obviously homemade and everything in between. Golaith has a pretty good mask (he’s probably the biggest celebrity), there are a couple of Broadways, one Brooklyn and one beaked gargoyle, one that looks like an off-model Lexington, and (I guess you’d call them) generic gargoyle costumes. Also, some nice non-gargoyle costumes (love the T-Rex!).

Gnash is adorable doing his first trick-or-treat and saying “It works.” And then he meets some new friends: Susan, Billy and Terry.
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): Saw it comin’.
Yeah, when Greg Weisman mentioned in podcasts and previews that Gnash would meet some new friends, I knew it would be these three. That’s just the “Gargoyles” way. Mind you, I’m not complaining--I love this. And I guess Sarah (Billy and Susan’s mother) felt they were old enough to go out unsupervised (yeah, I’m still on that). Actually, considering that their kids rub elbows with the son of an ambassador, I find myself wondering what job Sarah and/or William do.

At any rate, we get a great scene of the kids...being kids. And the revelation that Blackbeard was a gargoyle. Wow! Unexpected. The first time I read this, I figured this was something akin to the Fantastic Four comic (mentioned by Todd Jensen earlier) and Brooklyn wound up with the moniker somehow. But forget that: Billy, Susan and Terry have to say their own “gargoyle names.” Billy’s and Susan’s were instantly recognizable to old-time fans who remember the original development files: Trouble being the name of one of the two gargoyles that were combined into Amp (the other being Nick) and the name that lasted the longest before changing to Amp, and Pandora being the compulsive liar (actress!) who didn’t make the jump to the dramatic version of the show. Terry’s Krag is a little harder to pin down...the closest I can come is “Crag”, which was one of the names Fred Scheafer brainstormed for Brooklyn (or rather Cubbi, the “Proto-Brooklyn, though he looked more like Lex”) back during development. Gnash’s line about gargoyles traditionally not having names is probably his way of saying “your regular names count as ‘gargoyle names’, too” (and Greg’s way of informing new readers about this--not everyone is reading “Dark Ages” as well). Good eyes on the folks who noticed the glowing eyes on the right side of the panel; during my initial read, I just glanced over them as decorative lights.

Back at the castle (I think?) Hudson is watching Travis Marshall talk about how Xanatos is now officially a free man. Good for him! Now he can leave the country...wait. Does he just have one less meeting per month now?
More importantly, Goliath (and the clan) is going to be attending the Halloween Street fair in Greenwich Village, a fact that is announced by the Gargoyles Task Force and carried by the news. Hudson seems almost amused by this turn of events, so I don’t think Goliath is necessarily under some kind of arrest, but he is definitely being kept track of. It’s not surprising that he is free again (we’ll get the details in the next issue or two, of course), but this is definitely a different “normal” for him and everyone. Love Hudson’s crack about Celebrity Hockey.
By the way, does it look like Goliath has four fingers and thumb in this panel to anyone else?

Back to the kids. I’m trying to figure out the “candy bonanza” house myself (one of them kind of looks like Gomez Addams, but the other doesn’t look like Morticia, so I don’t know). Love Gnash’s verbal backspacing when he tries to one-up Terry’s boast about his big brother meeting Goliath (yeah, secret identities blow, kid). Unfortunately, that’s when they encounter a couple of young jerks in Quarrymen uniforms who hate on them for dressing like gargoyles because that “glorifies” them and “gargoyles are evil.” And that belief is an excuse for these guys to physically assault them, apparently. Thankfully, nobody seems to notice Gnash’s eyes starting to glow (or the glowing eyes and growling throats behind the jerks). However, the blonde jerk feels like this is boring and has to be talked into staying by the other guy...who mentions the Q-Men rally at the party in the Village where there are supposed to be “real gargoyles for [them] to bash,” which perks the blonde jerk right up. So, here we have guys who may or may not buy into the “gargoyles as evil” spiel, but definitely seem like they subscribe to it because they like having something to hate and hurt. Brunette Jerk seems more into the whole Q-Men (that’s now a canon term!) deal than Blonde Jerk--the latter seems to go along with his friend as long as he gets to hit someone.

After they leave, we learn that Billy and Susan don’t like the Quarrymen and that Sarah wound up not joining them. This pays off a panel back in “Masque” where she cast a worried look at two Quarrymen--I remember some speculation then that maybe she wasn’t as fond of them as she initially seemed. I think it’s safe to say that Vinnie was not an outlier: there were probably many others at that first rally who were hyped up and frightened of the gargoyles, but when they had some time and distance started to re-think things. “Going around with electrified hammers? That’s kind of dangerous. And what about those hoods? They look uncomfortably familiar...” Yeah, the hoods. I’m sure the initial (Watsonian or “in-universe”) thinking was to evoke Executioner’s hoods, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they hurt the Quarrymen’s image somewhat. More on that later.

Gnash wants to head to Greenwich Village to warn his clan, but (in-between several verbal slips) tells the others he doesn’t know his way around. They offer to take him by the subway, but first he has to say behind to...talk to the two gargoyle beasts, Bronx and Fu-Dog! I had mentioned earlier that I couldn’t see Katana just letting Gnash go off without any supervision whatsoever, so it was no surprise that these two were sent by her to do just that. (Also, they’re on the main cover (the one with Gnash’s actual costume), so no surprise that they’re here, too.) Great to see more of them “on-screen,” as well. I love the almost *ashamed* look Fu-Dog has at being found out by Gnash.

The subway scene is fun, too, with Gnash casually mentioning that he’s been on a pirate ship and a flying saucer but that a subway is new for him. And while he’s wondering if it’s new for the beasts, too, they seem to be having a great time. Actually, Bronx has done this at least once before back in “Awakening.”
FU-DOG [translated from “dog noises”]: WOOO-HOOO!
BRONX [translated from “dog noises”]: I TOLD YOU, DAWG! THIS IS THE BEST!

Now we see the street fair and it is great. More gargoyle costumes (Goliath and Broadway seem the most popular, and nobody seems to get Lex right) and we see a couple of familiar cops. Love Morgan lampshading Phil jinxing everything. And Travis is trying to get past Tri Chung to get an interview with the gargoyles because they are all right there at the gazebo. Well, not all of them: Hudson and the Cold Duo are absent. Hudson probably stayed at home or went to Jeffrey’s but the Cold Duo...I guess they figure they’re a bit too much for people right now. If they are still here, that is (I’ll have more to say on what I mean by that when I get to issue 8).

So the clan is now more public than it’s been before. This will bring new blessings and curses. Angela certainly feels like their presence could bring trouble (she’s not wrong). Like others, I did not recognize her, Broadway’s and Lexington’s costumes right off, but I think Phoenician is bang on as to who they are supposed to be. Love Brooklyn’s “dad” joke, but I’m also gratified at Lex’s reaction to it—it seems the Trio have mended their bonds (I look forward to seeing that as it happens in the comic).

We then meet a new old face (sort of): Careless Jones (I find myself wondering how common “Careless” is as a first name, assuming it’s the legal first name, of course). This is one of the things that we lose without the animated medium: a fantastic vocal performance giving more life to a character than there would otherwise have been. This is, of course, the character Keith David gave a great, great line read for in “Eye of the Beholder”, although the mask seems more like a mask this time. If I had to guess, Careless chose to go as the witch again this year precisely because it was the costume he wore when he first saw the gargoyles. A way he could be recognized, as it were. He might not have been able to put together as elaborate a mask/make-up job this year. At any rate, it’s great to see him and learn more about him, and how accepting he is of the gargoyles himself. Of course, it probably helps that he finds at least one of them (and the occasional Werefox) attractive. Speaking of humans who find gargoyles attractive, here comes Elisa, dressed as Alice from “Alice in Wonderland” (more book accurate version, it seems). Nice to see them dancing again, and they’ve got they’re own little crowd of well-wishers looking on.

Careless pulls Lex into a dance, responding to Lex’s “I’m seeing someone” (oh, it’s officially official now?!) with “it’s only a dance.” Well, at least this gets the whole clan on the dance floor!

Of course, outside the Quarrymen start to gear up. They’ve apparently switched from hoods to helmets: better protection, sure, but I wonder if what I said earlier about people rethinking things after calming down is true. The more “miner helmet” design (complete with head light) does fit more with their name. Either way, I look forward to hearing more about this development from Greg Weisman.
Regardless, Castaway’s orders are to go after anyone that looks like a gargoyle or anyone that looks like they’re friendly with a gargoyle, specifically calling out Elisa by her last name (so, pretty much clobber everyone). I’ve seen folks drawing parallels to how the Q-Men (even Castaway uses that term!) were portrayed in TGC, but I don’t think it’s quite the same. For one thing, in TGC, the vast majority of the public was pretty much acting like Quarrymen all the time, just without hoods and hammers. This time, there are more reactions to the gargoyles (even if some take time to be seen). And in TGC, Castaway only showed up twice (outside “The Journey”), and both times he was *really* reckless (and practically foaming at the mouth). Here, I think that, more than anything, Castaway is starting to get desperate. The “inroads into the public’s good graces” and being called the head of a hate group on a televised court proceeding probably didn’t do much for the Quarrymen’s image, and Castaway is fast seeing his chance to kill the gargoyles (and Goliath in particular) slipping through his fingers. He’s not a fool, he doesn’t think he’s going to “get away” with this, but he does think it’s worth it. As he says, he wants publicity, and to encourage anyone who hates gargoyles to look at the Quarrymen as a group that will actually do something about it. As for making the gargoyles show their “true colors”--yeah, he wants them to fight back, roaring with glowing eyes, bared fangs and slashing claws. He wants people to really see them up close as “monsters.” And if he’s really lucky, maybe he can kill Goliath tonight. This is a desperate man making (what he thinks is) a calculated sacrifice.

Bless Terry for doing the sane thing in this situation and going to get the cops/GTF (it helps to have a brother there). Of course, Gnash has a different upbringing and different set of skills. Also, two beasts as back-up. So he reveals himself to the Quarrymen (and his new friends) as he does a Leeroy Jenkins. Now, normally, a 9 (and three-quarters) year old kid and his pets against about two dozen or so armed older people would be a curb-stomp battle against the kid. Instead, Gnash’s first charge sends most of them running. It seems most of these folks were under the impression that the gargoyles wouldn’t fight back (Castaway is really scraping the bottom of the barrel, here). Except that leaves the most dangerous left to deal with: Castaway, for one, loves this turn of events, and I’m pretty sure the remaining four are the rest of his inner circle from earlier. John goes after Gnash while the rest go for the beasts. Bronx and Fu-Dog, though, don’t even break a sweat (love that tail action by Fu!). And Gnash (with his insulated hilt because Castaway isn’t the first “mope” to attack him with an electrified weapon) actually tries to get through to John that this is a bad path. “History isn’t kind to the Quarrymen.”

Meanwhile the Jerks from earlier are starting to feel in over their heads and get scared off by a gargoyle shadow! Or rather Billy carrying Susan on his shoulders (the kids have got heart). And Terry successfully brings Tri, Cedric, Phil and Morgan to the rescue, though only Castaway is still a threat at this point. And this is where Castaway starts to lose it. This is where he moves to straight up murder a kid while repeating “No.” But he’s stopped by Katana grabbing his arm and making him drop the hammer. And Katana does this quietly: no roaring, no fangs bared or slashing claws, not even any glowing eyes from what I can see. She is cold and efficient in her take-down.

Later, Elisa takes time out of the party to arrest Castaway (so she seems to still be on the force, yay!), while the rest of the GTF arrest the rest of his inner circle. I don’t see this as a final end to the Quarrymen (ala “Angels in the Night”), though. They’ll be back, and probably become more dangerous (if not careful) than before.

Careless bonds with Lex about how “haters gonna hate” but that doesn’t mean you have to put up with it. Gnash figures he’s in trouble, but Katana is actually proud of him. Concerned mother or not, she is a gargoyle warrior and is raising her child to be the same. She even manages to joke with him (“treat-or-tricking”) before saying he can go off continue enjoying the night (while telling the beasts to keep following him).

Gnash goes back to his friends...who are still his friends (so happy for that, and such a better meeting than his father had)! Oh yeah, and Blackbeard was a “nasty” gargoyle (and there’s another story to wait for).

There is so much to love about this comic. I love the story and how things developed and am interested to see where things go from here. Even for Castaway and the Quarrymen (maybe this will put John in touch with Jason, and how will the Illuminati react?).

Art wise, I admit I didn’t necessarily like the way some of the characters looked (some faces just seemed “off” to me), but that may just be a question of style. Overall, and considering the sheer amount of characters and costumes in this book, I think this is a great job.

Great Halloween special! [/SPOILER]

Okay, now I've got...less than half an hour to pack. [sigh]
****Blaise ZIPS out of the room the same way he came in.****
Blaise
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue."
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 1:03:32 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

Craig: [SPOILER] I’m sure there’s a line from “Nightwatch”: “only Quarrymen are licensed to piledrive” suggesting they can use the weapons. Also, thanks for checking on the moon and explaining the Eyrie geography. And goo catch - Alice, of course! It’s been a very long time indeed since I’ve watched those films, especially ‘Alice’, so it didn’t spring immediately to mind but it’s obvious once you mention it. As to the Xanatos callback, I half-expected it as it’s been on the timeline for a while. It’s great to see it in canon though. [/SPOILER]

Matt: [SPOILER] Excellent appraisal especially about the Quarrymen. It makes me wonder… the way Greg’s villain cycles often work is a cycle of defeat and upgrade. The Pack, recently the Dracon family, the Archmage. I feel like the next time we see the Quarrymen, they may be a bit more powered-up than we've seen to date. [/SPOILER]

Todd: [SPOILER] I feel like events will provide the Quarrymen with regular recruiting drives. I mean, just wait until Travis Marshall tries to shove a microphone into Demona’s face or even Thailog's... [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon: I think that’s not a bad shout. I anticipate in the future I’d reread this after #12 to fit what will presumably be the chronology although I guess we’ll see.

Matthew: [SPOILER] I don’t know I’d go so far as “helicopter mom” - frankly, letting a 10-year-old wander alone in a massive city at all seems incredibly liberal-minded to me, even when that child is a gargoyle. I’m slightly surprised Sarah wasn’t still with her children who aren’t that much older and in a group. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Fri, Oct 20, 2023 12:59:33 am EDT from 86.157.145.210

About [SPOILER] the direction the Quarrymen took in "Trick or Treat".

While their degeneration makes sense, I have one concern about it. The most prominent gargoyles in Manhattan - the ones whom an anti-gargoyle organization would be most likely going after - are Goliath and his clan. They've sworn to protect the city, which means that the "violent bully"-types, which the Quarrymen are turning into, will be at odds with them anyway. So the way the Quarrymen are going, they could soon wind up feeling as if they're going after the gargoyles less out of xenophobia or fear and hatred of the unknown and more out of the regular hatred that evil-doers have towards super-heroes - that it's no more about racism than the crooks in any DC or Marvel series going after the local super-hero. Of course, some of the anti-gargoyle action in the series had that tone anyway - all the way back to the Wyvern Massacre (yes, Hakon and his Vikings probably felt some xenophobia towards the gargoyles, but the main reason why they smashed them was to stop them from interfering with the sack of Castle Wyvern).

One possible solution would be to have another clan of gargoyles that isn't interested in patrolling the city settle in Manhattan and become public knowledge, but that would be too far-fetched.

As I said once, it points up the advantage of the Hunters' main target being Demona - and with the clear indication that they're not going after her because she's bent on wiping out the human race, but because of a private feud. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 8:09:17 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Oh shoot. My bad, I was writing on my phone and eager to share my thoughts, forgot the tags.

Mobile version also automatically reveals spoiler tags so it didn't spring to mind.

Feel really bad about that. :\ Wish there was a way to edit/delete comments.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 11:39:49 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Phoenician >

[SPOILER]
I think you might be right about the Charlemagne/Alexander/Antiope costumes! Good catch.

And you’re also correct, Elisa’s costume is closer to the original John Teniel illustrations, as opposed to the Disney model. Particularly the pockets and the lining on the apron.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 10:18:05 am EDT from 24.46.160.3

Masterdramon> Choice is kind of out of my hands. Working past a cold so comic store trip is a no go for me until Wednesday.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 3:50:29 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Before the day wraps up in this corner of the world, some thoughts on the Halloween Special!
[SPOILER] Thanks to the Previews cut-off, I admit that I briefly worried that Gnash might have been trick-or-treating on the steps of the Quarrymen Brownstone. Granted, Gnash seems the sort to be smart enough not to knock on any door with a Quarryman 'Q' emblazoned on it, but in those preview pages, who knows what Castaway was cooking up.

Which turned out to be fomenting violence and intimidation for all the world to see. More on the Quarrymen in a bit.

Love the revelation about Blackbeard, and I too am wondering when in the TimeDance Brooklyn and the others encountered the nasty gargoyle.

I also can't entirely place where Hudson and Goliath are watching the television. Are they at the Eyrie Building or some other location yet to be revealed in the remaining issues of Here in Manhattan? Kinda bummed that Hudson didn't seem to be readying himself for a night with Robbins, but A) he might still have been, but its a beat that doesn't need repeating when the pages are in limited supply or B) he opted to watch Egwardo for the night while Bronx and Fu-Dog had other duties. Of course, I guess Coldstone and/or Coldfire could have been on egg-duties. Despite the public revelations, I'm sure the cyborg/zombies members of the clan are still keeping a low profile.

Considering Terry's comment follow Susan's, I thought in my first read that he was calling Sarah Browne a wannabee Quarryman. But no, I see that he clearly meant the jerks who enjoy tormenting minors. I'm curious if, like our newly acquainted favorite witch, they might be background characters from previous episodes/issues.

Bronx and Fu-Dog on the subway could have been its own cover -- I also love how everyone is thrilled for Nate Cosby's sake at the activity the two are finally getting d:

I enjoyed seeing Jack Skellington in the crowds at the Greenwich block party.

Angela is not "Antiope" and yet I can't help but feel the costumes for her and Broadway and Lexington is some reference to the Dark Ages names we've seen Alesand use in her writing: Alexander and Charlemagne and Antiope.

There is plenty of fun moments with Gnash and his new human friends, Katana and Gnash, Katana and Brooklyn, Goliath and Hudson, and Goliath and Elisa, but Careless Jones is definitely the one who stole the show today. Truly a kindred spirit that crossed paths with the gargoyles early in the show's run that we are only just now really appreciating (gotta give credit to Keith David's uncredited voice for the guy). And Brooklyn and Lex were set on bikers and the pack . . .

Careless is right that it is just a dance, but I can't help but wonder what the London Clan does on Halloween. For that matter, how many of the other clans get to partake in such festivities?

I love that Elisa is Alice -- the Alice in Wonderland sculpture is one of my favorite moments in "Awakening" and practically the first spot I wanted to see when I last visited New York City (my second time there, but the first time was a school trip and the itinerary was not mine to manipulate). But this costume is certainly less spot-on like her other Disney-themed costumes so I'm not entirely sure if Elisa's costume is necessarily from the movie Alice in Wonderland and more-so the public domain realm of Lewis Carroll's original book. All I know is that the reference is certainly needing its own GargWiki page now!

Considering Castaway's previous draw with Goliath and Elisa in "Nightwatch" and "The Journey" and his line to his sister Robyn in "Estranged" about hiding in plain sight, I can see the gradual shift away from the Quarryman hoods. It feels organic story-wise. The lights on top do lend itself to looking like miner helmets but the lower part of the helmets are more tactical in nature, reminding me of some paintball-esque gear for most civilians that for others becomes make-shift armor intended for insurrection. I agree with Alex that the helmets (and how the story is executed) is just as chilling given the current political climate.

Gnash's reveal to Terry, Susan, and Billy was delightful, just as much as his one-on-one with Castaway was epic. Bronx and Fu-Dog get the exercise they've been needing for so many issues too! I also love Terry going to get help. In a world filled with legendary warriors and supernatural antics, its nice to see folks like Terry model what to do when the person in a situation is minor. Definitely reminded of the efforts of Maggie seeking help in "Kingdom" and Rosie and Pete's rescuing Ollie detailed in the newspaper from "High Noon".

Looking forward to future specials! I want to see one every Halloween, and for other special days of the year -- New Year's Eve seems like an awesome choice. Could we convince the folks in charge that we would eat up lesser celebrated festivities (as far as humans go) like a Solstice or an Equinox issue?

I also want to visit Greenwich village one day on Halloween now. :) [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon: Totally reasonable. I wouldn't make such edits without the full context of the Here in Manhattan arc complete, but I do suspect that the position of "Trick-Or-Treat" might ultimately be moved to a different spot in the official episode order much like "The Price" and "Kingdom" were corrected.

Oh, and how would this be for a twist? Imagine if the 'T' in "Trick-Or-Treat" winds up the final 13th piece to the title puzzle we've been putting together all year? d:
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 2:37:10 am EDT from 68.2.64.232

Don't know if I'm alone in this boat, but while I got a digital copy of the Halloween Special today, I'm electing NOT to read it until after Here in Manhattan #10. That was the intended publication order, and I'm paranoid about the possibility of spoiling myself on key developments in the main line. Maybe that'll turn out to be an unreasonable precaution, maybe not...but I'd personally rather be safe than sorry.

I'm reminded of a similar situation many years ago on W.I.T.C.H., where "W is for Witch" was aired prior to T, U, and V due to a similar Halloween tie-in. It was incredibly tough on my legendarily poor sense of self-control, but I recorded the episode and managed to hold off watching until I could put it in the correct order...and I thank the Oracle I did, because those familiar with W.I.T.C.H. will know how utterly BIZARRE it would be to watch W without the context provided by those preceding episodes.

Of course, it's ultimately the decision of each individual fan. But that's where I stand, personally.

I do ask however, in case any other readers are planning to do the same, that we leave spoiler tags on for all discussion of this issue until after #10 drops.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"If you run you gain one, but if you move forward you gain two." - Suletta Mercury
posted @ Thu, Oct 19, 2023 1:54:39 am EDT from 98.150.138.224

This was adorable. The story had really great momentum and lots of cool moments. It was nice to see Katana with a bigger role and the integration of gargoyles and humans in some fun ways.

The Clan looking like exhibits in a museum as lookers on were gawking at them struck me.

I assume the change from hoods to helmets is a bit odd, I assume this was done to move them away from being such a direct KKK takeaway. There also seemed to be an effort to make it clear the quarrymen are a gang.

I think it's a lot more authentic. These racial supremacy groups aren't about good pr and winning hearts and minds. They're about pure intimidation. Possessing strength and projecting it as much as possible.
Alex
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 11:34:47 pm EDT from 184.151.190.213

Todd >

[SPOILER]
“I can't help thinking that that kind of conduct is going to actually lose supporters.”

As we’ve seen the past few years, violent riots can actually gain supporters for a cause, unfortunately.

One wonders that the Quarrymen are even allowed to gather in public with those electric hammers. You’d think they would be immediately arrested for weapons possession. I also found it interesting that the GTF cops only drew billy clubs, not guns. Good for them exercising restraint (or perhaps this was a censorship thing?), but I couldn’t help thinking that those clubs were not going to be much use against the Quarrymen's sledge hammers!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 8:17:36 pm EDT from 12.74.238.133

My thoughts on "Trick-or-Treat".

[SPOILER] It was a fun read. I expected Gnash to make a few friends among the trick-or-treaters, but I hadn't expected them to be Billy, Susan, and Terry. It made sense, though, and was a real delight.

I couldn't help thinking that Gnash was trying to outdo his father in his choice of costume. Brooklyn had gone as a regular pirate back in "Eye of the Beholder"; Gnash went as a big-name pirate captain, Blackbeard (who, I recall, got brought up in discussions about a Timedancing Brooklyn meeting pirates) - with the revelation that Blackbeard was actually a gargoyle. I'd like to know more about that. (It reminded me of something I'd read about a Fantastic Four story where they traveled back to the Age of Piracy and the Thing became the original of Blackbeard.)

Castaway and his Quarrymen become more like their "Goliath Chronicles" counterparts - recklessly attacking the Halloween party - and with Castaway winding up arrested. I can't help thinking that that kind of conduct is going to actually lose supporters.

Bronx and Fu-Dog get to take part in the adventure - no longer staying off-stage guarding Eggwardo. Nate must have been delighted with that development.

The witch with the male voice from "Eye of the Beholder" returns. Goliath and Elisa have another Halloween dance - this time she's dressed up as Alice. (A possible call-back to the "Alice in Wonderland" statues she ran past in "Awakening Part Four"?)

All in all, a charming story - though I still think it's a pity that it came out before "Here in Manhattan" was completed, for obvious reasons. - [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 8:00:46 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Some more scattered thoughts on "Trick-or-Treat"...

[SPOILER]
Katana's line about Halloween being a very confused mix of customs is great. Especially since she probably has a very unique historical perspective, having probably experienced first-hand several of the cultures that contributed to our modern view of the holiday.

"Owen-san keeps the kitchen well-stocked." Another Dynamite issue, another case of Owen remaining sadly on the periphery.

Ed > "Invitation Only" told us that the Eyrie Building is located on Central Park South. Given that, it shouldn't be nearly as close to the World Trade Center as is depicted here (the Towers would be be way further south, in the Financial District), but I suppose we can chalk that up to creative license. It feels more symbolic than anything to see them, and I appreciate it.

It actually appears that it was a New Moon on 10/31/1997, but that wouldn't make for as nice a visual. Again, creative license? At least it's not a full moon. :)

Stating the obvious, but Susan and Billy's gargoyle names Pandora and Trouble come from the early development of the series. I don't recall a Krag, though.

Goliath in ice skates is indeed a compelling and amusing image. I'm immediately reminded of those "Disney on Ice" shows of the 1990s...I'm almost certain I saw one that had the gargoyles in it. But the skates would obviously have to be custom-made to fit the gargoyles' foot shape!

What room is that where Hudson is watching TV? Have we seen that space before? It looks like Hudson is comfortable enough with their situation to expand beyond the castle into the Eyrie Building proper. The ceiling looks like perhaps it might be part of the atrium?

Gnash as the sheltered kid hanging out with more worldly City kids is very fun. I think that's an experience a lot of NYC kids can relate to (from both sides of it, at various points in life). It's interesting that Gnash suddenly has more human friends than the Trio ever had. He benefits from being a relatively recent arrival when the tide is turning a bit in terms of acceptance of the gargoyles, so he's probably more open to mingling than the others. It also strikes me that I no longer think of Broadway and Lex as the kids of the clan anymore (nor Brooklyn, but that goes without saying).

Lots of Goliath, Brooklyn and Broadway costumes, but a distinct lack of Lexington! No love for the little guy, NYC?!

I'm disheartened by how many people missed Elisa's Alice costume (one of my favorite Disney movies!). And am curious if anyone has thoughts on Broadway, Angela and Lex's costumes. I feel obtuse for not glomming on to who they're supposed to be, but I'm drawing a blank.

Goliath sitting behind a DJ at a block party is such a funny image. He looks so uncomfortable.

Love the panel of everyone dancing. And the little flirtation between Careless Jones and Lex is adorable.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 1:05:22 pm EDT from 24.46.161.46

Good morning, folks. I'm here with my thoughts on the halloween Special. As usual, I've not talked about it with anyone yet!

[SPOILER] - Glad we are getting the timestamp. Not because we really needed it when the date is pretty obvious, but largely for any readers who don't realize the year. This is especially important when we spot the Twin Towers standing tall and proud in the first few pages. This might be the most detailed view of them we've seen in the comics era and I have to suspect their inclusion is deliberate. I think down the road we will see a 9/11 story.

- This story is a good one for members of the clan who've gotten les attention in the main book: namely Gnash, Katana, Bronx, and FuDog. Glad to see a lot more of them here.

- Castaway is clearly not happy with recent developments regarding human-gargoyle relations. His comments (and the fact that Goliath is free, the clan is widely known to be attending a block party, and the GTF clearly protecting the clan) all points to things going fairly well following Goliath's hearing. Surprisingly well. I even thought for a moment that Elisa might've been kicked off the force, but she is the one reading the Miranda Rights in the end, so it looks like times are pretty good for the clan. Hudson even calls Goliath famous and jokes about him being on Celebrity Hockey (something I think we'd all be amused to see!).

- The Quarrymen seem to be backsliding a lot here. No more caution. They're not even trying to paint themselves as public servants anymore. Nope, lets attack a party. Even willing to attack humans perceived to be friendly to the clan. Crazy and pretty devastating to the "Q-Men". Especially as their main members all end up arrested. And their membership seems to be mostly talk and quick to run when threatened. And we find that Sarah did not end up joining them after all. This one issue is just devastating for the Quarrymen, honestly. Castaway is bested in battle not by Goliath, but by a gargoyle kid and a couple beasts. they've even lost their way a bit in branding: no more hoods, helmets now (though I do like the design on the helmets, they remind me of miner's helmets appropriately enough). I know I'm going on about this a while, but I'm surprised to see both Castaway and the Quarrymen fall so hard, so fast. I guess we'll see how much they're able to bounce back from this.

- Gnash has a lot of great kid moments here of course. I love his confidence with his parents, but his hesitancy when he is on his own. I love his glee when trick or treating actually produces results. And I love that he finds quick friends in Terry, Billy, and Susan. The four of them remind me right away of the Trio and Antiope from Dark Ages. I think the thought of the four of them growing up as friends is pretty neat. We have such a murky view of the time between 1997 and 2198 and stuff like this makes me imagine it a bit better. We know some of Terry's future, but now I'm thinking of Billy and Susan more. What will be their role in the years to come. it'd be hilarious if they end up as hugely pivotal characters decades from now and they were just these minor characters way back in one episode of season one. I guess we'll see (I hope!).

- Blackbeard was a gargoyle, huh? Gnash seems fairly insistent on the point and mentions being on a pirate ship. I've gotta think he knows what he's talking about. As usual, Gargoyles had me doing some research this morning. I read a lot about Blackbeard on Wikipedia. "All things are true, few things are accurate..." I hope to get to see the story here one day.

- Gnash's response to the kids' gargoyle names is funny. "Traditionally, gargoyles don't have names." Also interesting since he's surrounded by a clan of named gargoyles. His parents have names. Why bring this up here? Has he ever even met an unnamed gargoyle or is this just something someone told him. His childhood must've been fascinating. (Also, it wasn't until my second reading that I noticed the two beasts' eyes glowing in this panel).

- Another bit of canon in training becomes canon with Xanatos's probation expiring. The Travis also reports that the GTF seems to be keeping tabs on Goliath and the clan. Not capturing and being a problem for the gargoyles, but really moving more toward protecting the gargoyles a bit. I've long suspected that this was the direction the GTF would evolve. I'll bet that eventually a gargoyle themself will become a member of both the NYPD and the GTF): Broadway probably. We shall see. Travis's camerawoman makes another cameo. Still no idea of her importance though.

- The house the gives the quartet all the candy had me trying to figure out if we know them. Couldn't place them but maybe they are a couple we've seen before. I dunno.

- The two wanna be Q-Men who pester and even attack the kids are total jerks. I mean, I don't agree with Castaway's philosophy obviously, but I get it. These two are attacking human kids. These are bad people. Yeesh.

- Bronx and FuDog are a lot of fun in this story. I especially love their trip on the subway roof. Hilarious.

- Kind of surprised that Angela says she loves Halloween. This is only her second one and the first was kind of a rough night for all involved. I can't place her costume (or Broadway or Lex's), so I'm looking forward to hearing from others what they are going as. Likewise, I have no idea who Elisa is supposed to be.

- Careless Jones is a deep cut. He loves that great, great witch costume. His conversation with Goliath is cool and his interaction with Lexington is even more bizarre (in a good way). This guy is very interesting and I'm looking forward to getting to know him better. I mean, that name, his general ease with the gargoyles. Lots of weirdness with this guy. And yet, he still comes across and friendly and trustworthy. It'd be interesting if we only see him on Halloween and always in a witch's mask. Something about him makes me think of Puck or something. I can't put my finger on it, but there is more to this guy than just a partygoer, mark my words.

- Love that Lex says that he's seeing someone. I hope that we get to see Amp again soon.

- Gnash's line about taking "the more direct approach" and his costume and demeaner all remind me a lot of Griff. And given that Blackbeard was an englishman, I can't help but picture the pirate as similar in appearance to Griff. Hmmm

- Fu-Dog's tail is prehensile! Neat! We've seen gargoyles use their tails like this before, but not often. I like it.

- I mistook Billy and Susan's shadow for Claw briefly.

- I think I hit all the highlights. I enjoyed this one a lot, but it definitely feels like a one off, which, of course, it is. A self contained story. In no other Gargoyles comic have things ever felt so satisfactorily resolved: Gnash has fun, makes friends, and gets some growth. The Clan is doing great and everyone is happy. The Quarrymen suffer a major defeat. All is well. I guess I was waiting for some sort of Xanatos Tag in the end... Like the real Blackbeard the Gargoyle Pirate watching young Gnash stroll off with his new friends while he lurks sinisterly in the shadows or something. Ha! [/SPOILER]

Happy Halloween! That's my ramble, where's yours?
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 10:48:21 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Matt—[SPOILER] Actually, this issue pretty much kills that theory. If Blackbeard took Brooklyn’s eye, there’s no way that he and Katana would have let Gnash dress as the pirate. It’s way too morbid. Plus Gnash clearly met the guy (based on the pirate ship comments) and we saw in #6 that Brooklyn lost his eye before Nashville even hatched. [/SPOILER]
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 10:16:46 am EDT from 174.243.50.253

BLAISE - Thank you for the review of #4. I'm still impressed by those trio masks; as Goliath points out, it'd still be clear to everyone that these are humans wearing gargoyle masks, but the masks are excellent likenesses (though the Brooklyn mask is clearly pre-Timedancer), and, as you mentioned, it's appropriate that the leader of the kidnappers is the one wearing the Brooklyn mask. Clearly these guys did some good research on the clan.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 9:15:35 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Some quick thoughts on our Gargoyles Spook-tacular.

[SPOILER] Because this was obviously meant to come after issue 10, I'll save my thoughts on Goliath's release and the growing changes in human/gargoyle relationships until after we get the full picture. But I noticed that the change the story is currently going through was best utilized through Gnash, the kids, and the wannabe-Quarrymen. Big social changes are best depicted through the young that grew up with them. At the same time, I really hope we don't get to see the Quarrymen equivalent of the Hitler Youth.

But I love that Gnash has continued the pirate theme that Brooklyn did all those years ago, it really reminds me of my dad and I. We love out pirates. But this issue gave Gnash and Katana some much needed spotlight. We haven't learned much about them as characters but this gave them so good pieces to work with. Ed mentioned Katana being a bit of a helicopter mom, well there's a common stereotype about Asian mothers being like that. I really don't think that's the intention here, my guess is that something occurred in Japan or during the Time Dance that made her a bit on the protective side, but we'll need to see. One little cultural detail I like is that after the scuffle Gnash refers to her as oka-san "mother" rather than ka'a-san "mom." Really implies that he gets into a more formal, serious mood with his parents after fighting.

Yeah, the change in art is pretty noticeable, especially with Elisa who looks almost like a different character, but it's still quite good. Another thing I've noticed thanks to her showing up more is how much Katana's changed from her initial appearance, looking more like the karasu tengu rather than the hanataka tengu she originally emulated. It takes a special skill to capture both the colors and gloom that go with Halloween. I've heard that Halloween celebrations in Greenwich Village are spectacular affairs and use a lot of elaborate puppets, so good detail on that part.

My guess for now is that we're going to be shifting away from the crime families to the Quarrymen in terms of antagonists. This doesn't seem like the best thought out idea but at the same time this brouhaha could be a good way for Castaway to weed out who's not willing to fight against very dangerous individuals and who's actually committed to their violent form of bigotry rather than the passive sort. If I had to guess, he's going to try and spin this as a form of martyrdom and get more support from the people (this is reminding me way too much of modern politics). Plus, the authorities didn't actually see who started the fight so he could also easily spin this as self-defense.

And finally, Blackbeard was a gargoyle? Didn't see that coming. I'm still holding onto my theory that Brooklyn lost his eye to him in a swordfight until we learn otherwise. But this is a pretty big revelation because he'd make another addition to the short list of explicitly evil gargoyles. There's another interesting factor, see Blackbeard has as much documented historical fact about him as there is myths surrounding him. So either there was a lot covered up by Maynard and the Royal Navy, or maybe Edward Teach adopted the alias from the true Blackbeard. [/SPOILER]

Looking forward to issue 10!
Matthew
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 4:32:25 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Ed >

[SPOILER]
I think Elisa is Alice (in Wonderland). The white tights and the shoes are the giveaway for me, although it does also bear a resemblance to Belle’s outfit. Elisa is probably feeling like she’s gone down the rabbit hole by this point…and it’s also a nice parallel to the scene in “Awakening” when she passes the Alice sculpture in Central Park.

Forgot to mention, but I’m also really impressed to see the reference to Xanatos’s probation ending. Talk about a distant callback! I’m always happy to get a sense of how the man on the street perceives Xanatos, so that was a really welcome reference.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 1:42:51 am EDT from 12.74.238.133

New series: I'm way too ride-or-die for Greg Weisman's canon to have even the merest flicker of curiosity about this frankly. Time was, I'd support a non-canon project for the help it would boost the odds of canon material but there's a good deal of canon material to support now so I'll just keep multi-dipping the comic as my "vote with my wallet" go-to move. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind if Keith David, Carl Johnson or any of the awesome people turn up but even then I’ll have quite mixed feelings I think.

HALLOWE’EN SPECIAL SPOILERS (yeah, I keep the apostrophe in Hallowe’en. AND YOU SHOULD TOO! Cos it looks way more Hallowe'eny).

[SPOILER]
SCHRODINGER’S TITLE
I start with an existential crisis. Having carefully tracked Greg’s one-word titles for a year now we have a title which is three words on the cover page but hyphenated in the book itself. I thought the hyphenation was a little strange since why would a title use an adjectival form but then again if there’s any time to dress up words in somewhat unnecessary punctuation it’s Hallowe’en.

MOON
I kind of love the phases of the Moon in the comic. I don’t have the time right now to check that the Moon was a crescent on 31/10/97 but… I’m fairly sure I don’t need to.

ART
Diego Bonesso is another great find from Dynamite.

First up, it’s fair to concede that the down side of having a new artist on a property like this is that there are so many character models and inevitably quite a few look off - Elisa and Angela most notably. Not a criticism - it’s tough to get dozens of models right with the relatively tight deadlines that the economics of comics necessitate. However, as a reader, this makes it trickier especially with the background characters. This is why I’m so glad the new comic has managed to keep consistent artists throughout runs and why I hope there’s not too much chopping and changing from arc to arc in future.

Traded off against that are some absolutely gorgeous cityscape scenes - page 3 being a great case in point but I also adore all the scenes of the party later on with the skeleton floats and other great details. The pages feel so lively and dramatic. All told, I think this is a really beautiful issue and there’s a lot of charisma given to all the characters - notably Goliath whose body language is used to great effect throughout. I’d be interested to see what Diego Bonesso would do with a longer arc to really get to grips with the models.

(Of course, if there are new artists, I’m always gonna be shilling for a Charlebois/Jones comeback... come on, Dynamite...).

WORLD TRADE CENTRE
Have these buildings been in the Eyrie’s skyline before? I'm sure they have but I just haven't really noticed them. Still, I’m trying to figure out if this is artistic licence or a deliberate choice to include them (foreshadowing an 11 September story?). To be clear, obviously it's not news the Eyrie and the WTC exist in the same skyline but I guess from this image someone far more familiar with New York than me could plot the Eyrie Building on a map quite precisely if it could be taken at face value. Then again, I guess someone familiar with NY probably could have done that from other vistas.

KATANA & BROOKLYN
This is one of the first times we really get to see Katana and Brooklyn bounce off each other. It’s fun to see.

MASKS
I love how popular masks of the clan are. The fact that they’re using old-model Brooklyn suggests that mask makers are using old footage of the clan. Maybe Dino did just buy them off the rack - the equivalent of thieves using Nixon masks or what have you.

BLACKBEARD
What an awesome revelation. Greg has been so spoiler averse for so many years that it kind of amuses me to see a classic Ask Greg tease dropped into the middle of the story. I know he’s said he regrets being so open early on but I really think his openness played a big part in keeping the sizzle and excitement around the property early on. If I hadn’t been coming to S8 regularly to check out Ask Greg’s revelations I don’t know if I’d have noticed and started following the comment room and it’s sad to think that my life would have been like without a quarter-century of internet geekery. For this reason, although I get it makes Greg’s storytelling more difficult, I’ll never regret any canon-in-training he’s put out there — plus, 25 years (well, 12 then another 13) is a long time to wait for canon so we’ve had those little flickers of candlelight in the darkness to keep us warm all those decades. However, now there is canon I’m as spoilerphobic as it’s practical to be… and yet…

SPOILERS
There’s nothing to be done about this but I think I saw that #10 was originally slated to come out first. Ideally this would be scheduled chronologically but that’s tricky with the fixed holiday of Hallowe’en. But I am a little sad that so many of the open questions from “Here in Manhattan” are answered prematurely. A few surprises including the broadly positive reception Goliath has received - to the extent that the clan can stay as minor celebrities - and the apparent lack of career consequences Elisa has faced so far. And… I mean, I don’t think we expected any big deaths or anything… but at minimum, the core clan survive HiM. I don’t see Coldstone and Coldfire to be fair and since Coldstone has been on the boil lately something could be brewing there.

SILENT G
I feel like the “silent G” might be more for the Eliza crowd.

CELEBRITY HOCKEY
Okay, everything about that Goliath/Hudson page - from the Xanatos info, to the art, to the great version of Travis - I love. But Hudson’s final line is perfect. Ah, Ed Asner… with such an immortal voice, I can still hear him.

Okay, I kind of skipped it earlier, but let’s address a big one…

QUARRYMEN
So I know the Quarrymen’s reputation was scragged on the rocks of TGC but I have to say I always thought the core idea was fascinating and “Clan-Building” absolutely explored this. You saw Castaway treading carefully but also you saw such an incredible diversity of different types of characters all under the same umbrella. Coupled with the decision to put them in hoods with the terrifying iconography that brings, I thought they were a fascinating and incredibly textured meditation on bigotry.

However, this issue sees quite an evolution and they’re definitely more towards the clownish rent-a-thug end of the spectrum. We learn that Sarah has rethought her association with them which is terrific and we see that the make-up is shifting inexorably towards thugs and cowards. Having thugs (I think “the thugs”?) beating up kids is almost comical.

Another change which surprises me is the lack of hoods. The helmets are certainly practical but lack the same silhouette and dread. A part of me wonders if this was purely a narrative decision or whether Disney got cold feet about having such dark iconography (except for that absolutely epic cover to #4, have we seen the masks in the Dynamite run?).

GNASH UNDERCOVER
I love the mileage Greg gets about Gnash trying to pass as a human. Also the leakage of information such as that he’s been on a flying saucer is fascinating.

BRONX & FU-DOG
Love these two. Although, and I’m going to sound like Nate here, I kind of wish they had more page space. I could have happily seen a whole run of them watching the action and terrifying people walking past.

GTC
I have such nostalgic affection for a particular page of “Invitation Only” - the Gargoyle Task Force scene. Bringing together old characters and new in such a way really was the first time it felt like we were plunging into something brand new in canon. So seeing Phil, Morgan and Tri in this one is great. I really like Phil and Morgan’s rapport.

COSTUMES
Love how Brooklyn is in dad-costume mode.

ELISA
My Disney movies are fuzzy but looks like Belle’s costume with a couple of extra pockets for her badge and gun. Nice.

LEX
Aw, the first confirmation Lex is actually seeing someone. Careless is a fun character - and has a great name.

TERRY
I love that Terry does the bang-on right thing. Why, with solid decisions like that, I think he could be the lead in his own spin-off! Actually, I’m kind of intrigued that his new friendship with Gnash really means that when/if “The New Olympians” begins, he’ll be a bit more immersed in gargoyle culture than I would have expected prior to this. Cool.

COMEDY QUARRYMEN
I laughed at the “And you made ME sign up too!” Line. And Billy and Susan saving the day is great.

SWORDPLAY
Again, a great glimpse of the future from Gnash’s sword. Of course he’s used to electrified weapons in the future. It’s also nice to see that the Quarrymen, even though they still exist, are definitely regarded unkindly years from now.

KATANA
I love how Katana intercedes effortlessly (and weaponlessly). I think this says a lot about her character. The “treat-or-tricking” amused me too - I can absolutely see how she and Brooklyn hit it off. And Greg nicely turns on its head the obligatory “Gnash in trouble” scene by Katana being cool with his actions. Intrigued to see more of her.

GNASH/VILLE
I like that Katana still calls him Nashville. I feel like this is a name with a resonance that Gnash perhaps does not fully understand. Perhaps one day he will and then he’ll own his actual name as opposed to Gnash. It’ll be interesting to see.

CASTAWAY’S ARREST
Huh. I don’t know if the arrest will stick and even then for how long but there’s a potential power vacuum in the Quarrymen and surely fingerprinting is likely to risk Jon’s other identity coming to light. Feels like an anti-climactic note for such a dark character but I dare say there'll be more of John/Jon in the mainline book.

For a frothy upbeat side-story, this had an awful lot of delightful material crammed in. But then, as Goliath might say, that is the ‘Gargoyles’ way. Let’s hope this sells like gangbusters and we get many more specials to come. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 1:28:36 am EDT from 86.157.145.210

I feel like Disney would be okay with multiple continuities for Gargoyles. After all, they own Marvel, and it's not like they canceled the comics in favor of the movies. Though I suppose there could be pressure to make the comics line up with the more popular rebooted TV show if it came to that.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 1:25:41 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

Halloween Special >

Will have more to say tomorrow, but a few preliminary thoughts...

[SPOILER]
As usual, Nate Cosby has done a bang-up job finding artists well suited to the material. The art and colors are gorgeous and expressive and evoke the mood of the holiday perfectly. And speaking of Nate Cosby, FINALLY we get some real Bronx and Fu-Dog action! It took long enough, but was well worth the wait.

The gorgeous panel of the cityscape with the Twin Towers hit me in the feels, especially as a New Yorker. So glad Disney isn't shying away from acknowledging the time period.

The characterizations of everyone are on point. Gnash and Katana feel much more fully realized than they have previously. I love Katana deliberately mispronouncing "trick-or-treat" near the end. You really get a sense of Katana as a helicopter parent in an endearing and understandable way.

I'm shocked by how much of a preview we get of the shift in human-gargoyle relations and where things stand. I was wondering how Greg would address that, but wasn't expecting THIS much. We don't get specifics of the outcome of the court case, but it's pretty clear that Goliath won a victory of sorts and that gargoyles are now sort of celebrities / curiosities cautiously living side-by-side with humans...and that Elisa is perhaps a bit of a quasi-celebrity as well. The Goliath-Hudson exchange really tickled me. I wonder how much more insight Brooklyn and his family have into the way things will evolve that they're perhaps not sharing with the rest of the clan (as alluded to with Gnash's line about the future of the Quarrymen, as well as Brooklyn's very specific mention of timedancing, and the fact that Brooklyn and Katana seem rather removed from the rest of the clan throughout the proceedings).

And Careless Jones...huh. In classic Greg fashion, never letting a character go to waste, no matter how silly or seemingly insignificant. Very interested to learn more about this guy.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 12:53:27 am EDT from 24.46.161.60

****A bolt of lightning hits the floor (where did it come from?) and Blaise appears.****
Wow, a lot to talk about in addition to my ramble on Issue 4. First thing's first.

NEW LIVE ACTION SERIES> On the whole, I am actually excited to hear about this (especially now that we've got some confirmation). No, it's not an animated continuation, or even one of the spin-offs (come on "Gargoyles 2198"!), but it is a new lease on life for the property as a whole and a new way to possibly get more people interested in everything else about it (the original show and comics, mostly). My optimism is tempered with caution, though: the synopsis from Variety seeming to indicate that Goliath will be the only gargoyle is disappointing to me, and there are a lot of ways this could go wrong. But scaling back the cast for live-action is not without precedent (even Greg Weisman and Michael Reaves pared it down to three gargoyles for their movie treatment), and I don't want to be too negative before this thing even has a chance to proceed past pre-production. I'm happy Disney is giving "Gargoyles as much attention as it is right now.
Still, I would love to hear Greg Weisman's thoughts on this, too.
(By the way, if anyone wants to check out the "Swamp Thing" series by Dauberman, I saw that it's available on Tubi.)

HALLOWEEN SPECIAL THIS WEEK> So eager for this! Sure, it would have been better if the schedule slip didn't result in issue 10 (and 11, I believe) coming out after this special: [SPOILER] in one of the Voices From the Eyrie podcasts (can't remember which) Greg Weisman had said that the outcome of Goliath's hearing would necessitate Castaway re-strategizing his approach to using the Quarrymen against the gargoyles and we would see that in the Halloween special [/SPOILER]. But hey, it's not like we didn't have an episode air earlier than intended with the original series right? (*cough*"The Price"*cough*).
The preview has defintiely whet my appetite for it:[SPOILER] Gnash wanting to go trick-or-treating, Katana not understanding the point, Brooklyn gently encouraging her to let Gnash go out, etc. Got to say, though, I'm surprised Gnash is going unsupervised. And we get an idea why the Quarrymen are going out armed tonight (and see some familiar faces at Castaway's little meeting!) [/SPOILER]. Can't wait!

Now, stepping back in time:
TALE OLD AS TIME> Okay, I felt like typing the title as “Tale (as) Old as Time” because we all know what it was supposed to be. I do not know the circuitous reasons Disney could have for not wanting “Gargoyles” to reference “Beauty and the Beast” (any more than it already has!), but this is another of those things that make me wonder just who at Disney is giving these notes. Anyway....

Goliath, the “main character” of the show, finally provides narration for this issue--and please pardon me a minute as I beat up my brain for drawing a parallel to TGC because of that. Yeah, that thought *just* occurred to me now as I’m writing this ramble. Well, at least for this series it’s not ONLY Goliath and we get a peak into the heads of multiple clan members. And the narration is generally more specific (pun not intended) to the situation instead of a broad “theming” speech. Speaking of the narration, though, I love how Goliath describes Elisa as “alien, yet...so lovely” in a callback to Beth’s line about the gargoyles from “Cloud Fathers.”

But while Goliath dreams of her during the day, we go to Sing Sing where we finally meet the man, the myth, the legend: Dino Dracon (apparently alliterative appellations were the thing for a couple generations of the Dracon family). First thing to notice about him, as others pointed out, is that his hair is the opposite of Tony’s with a black stripe in the middle of a mane of white (and a beard that mirrors, in Dino’s case). The second thing...well, Pal Joey’s had better days (and so has Antoinette). It is impressive how effectively Dino masks his rage at getting splashed until he’s able to take Pal Joey off-guard. I gave the current Disney overseers guff earlier, but I have to say I’m not sure the whole “introducing-Joey’s-head-to-the-steering-wheel” thing would have showed up in the TV series. Even after that, though, the shot of Dino’s eyes in the rearview mirror is chilling, and as effective as the fear on Antoinette’s face in conveying the dread this guy engenders.

We cut to a TV displaying news of the clan helping out with the bust in the first issue, but with a very biased view of the events from one Charles Chalmers (though we all know him better as “Chaz”). Love the Spider-Man reference in the dialogue. Matt, bless him, tries to do damage control and plant the idea that the gargoyles were helping catch criminals, but a shadowy figure with a very distinctive silhouette says that “something must be done about this...before it’s too late.”
Now, at this time we all know exactly who this silhouette is, but if I had commented on this at the time this issue came out (and I am kicking myself for not doing that), I would have said something like “That’s Renard. No question.” Maybe I would have hedged my bets and said that it was only a 99% chance that it was Renard, but...come on!

Now we cut back to the Dracon family and Glasses is giving the 411 to Dino. It looks like Dominic is playing the “dotty old man” routine for more than just the press (probably the smartest thing to do, for multiple reasons). And Glasses is quick to defend Tony from Dominic’s dismissive attitude, though it probably helps that there are other parties to blame. We get the full rundown of the “Gargoyles” universe’s version of organized crime in Manhattan, circa 1997, as well as the last names of the folks we saw last issue. I love Dino’s reaction to the gargoyles: of course he’s heard about them by now via rumor and news, but the knowledge that they help the cops against the criminals is met with basically, “Huh, interesting. Well, that’s another obstacle to deal with.” And he means to take this city back no matter who’s in his way. He leaves mentioning that he had read something while in Sing Sing that should help deal with the other families outside of open warfare (we all know what it is now, but shhh...). And after he leaves, Glasses mentions that he’s more “measured” in his responses than before (despite what happened to Pal Joey, apparently). I’m starting to wonder if meetings with him in the past ended with a lot of subordinates nursing black eyes and broken noses.

We now cut to the reopening of the NYPD 23rd precinct building (yay it’s back! And am I alone in thinking end of October to mid-May is really fast for reconstruction?). In the crowd, Margot shows Matt something and remarks how “amazing” it is. Matt echoes her words, but not her enthusiasm.

The gargoyles wake up and Goliath goes to talk with the Trio...except Angela and Broadway are in a rush to talk to Coldfire about something (we all knew it was about officially becoming mates, even before confirmation next issue), while Brooklyn and Katana take a reluctant Gnash off to have a history lesson (just because you’re a time traveler, kid, doesn’t mean there isn’t more to learn--the world is very big and very old). I also love the line about seeing how the Timedance fits into “the grand scheme.” This leaves Lexington alone and not very happy about it. He goes off to the computer lab (even before it was revealed he was chatting with Staghart, most of us pretty much guessed that--or hoped) while Hudson and Goliath discuss the very obvious distance growing between the Trio. I love how, in the ensuing dialogue, Goliath begins each of the next three sentences with “Perhaps...” and Hudson lampshades it immediately afterwards ("Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps"). But Hudson says that “some crisis or other” will happen to bring the Trio back together, and Goliath finds himself “wishing for a crisis.”
[Facepalm]
To be fair, he does acknowledge the foolishness of this later on. Twice!

We now cut to the park where some new faces with familiar names show up. Cookies to everyone who figured that Rosaria Sanchez and Peter Choi from that newspaper article in “High Noon” were coming back this issue, especially when we saw the preview giving us the last names of the crime bosses, two of which match these teenagers. Of course, this Romeo and Juliet (as one of the other characters lampshades) are interrupted by three guys in...Trio masks?! Yeah, I didn’t see this coming (missed seeing the Kambadais cover until after reading this), and it is a creepy effect. The one wearing Brooklyn’s head acts as the leader (is that just coincidence?) and they kidnap the kids, knowing full well who they are and counting on a strong reaction from their families. As soon as the kids are in the trunk, though, Goliath and Hudson arrive. So “Brooklyn” tells the other two to go while he stays behind to fight the gargoyles--gutsy. I’m trying to figure out what he’s shooting: it doesn’t look like the normal particle beam weapons and certainly not like Macbeth’s electric gun.

Goliath handles “Brooklyn” while Hudson tries to stop the car. Goliath is able to dodge the blasts and destroy the guns but all the masked crook can say is “I’m unimpressed.” Did I say “gutsy?” This is a bit beyond that. Goliath manages to grab the guy (who just pops a hidden blade) but is then interrupted by three helicopters ordering him to drop “that human” (good eyes on whoever is using the loudspeaker). “Brooklyn” denies these being his people, leaving Goliath to conclude that they’re Quarrymen (I wonder how many times the clan have had to duck the Quarrymen over the past four months). “Brooklyn” takes advantage of the distraction to cut Goliath (off-panel; we definitely wouldn’t have gotten images like the last page of “Masque” here), and escapes while Goliath has to deal with the helicopters. Hudson meanwhile, has to let the car go because of these new arrivals.

I like the brief hesitation as the person on the loudspeaker says “place your, uh, claws behind your head.” Of course, Goliath, thinking these are Quarrymen, flees as if his life depended on it. I love that he gets enough height to start gliding on the same rock outcropping he used in “Awakening, Part 3” when he and Elisa escaped from the Xanatos Goon Squad. Unfortunately, it’s not enough to get away, and though he’s lucky enough to avoid what appear to be live rounds, he gets caught by an electrified net. Goliath once again chastises himself for his earlier wish as he loses consciousness.

Once again: we all know who the helicopters are, but if I were commenting on this back at publication, I would say these were most likely the Gargoyles Task Force with new funds and stuff (that being what Margot showed Matt earlier). Granted, they never identified themselves as the police, but that may be because they’re not dealing with human perps. I would allow for a chance to be wrong, though, and say that I was 90% certain they’re the GTF.
The ”not-Trio” however, is another story. This is all definitely Dino’s doing, and we all pretty much guessed that he had read the same news article from “High Noon”. As for the identities of the masked men: most likely, “Brooklyn” is Dino, and the other two are Pal Joey (“Lex”) and Glasses (“Broadway”). These aren’t the clothes they were in earlier, no, and in some panels “Brooklyn” seems more svelte than Dino looked and definitely talks more like a stereotypical gangster than Dino normally seems to. However, if you’re trying to hide your identity, why wear a recognizable suit and talk like you normally would? I allow a greater chance for being wrong here, though--this is the sort of set-up that lends itself well to red herrings. I’ll say I’m only 80% sure of their identity.

Likewise, while we know who funded the GTF now, at the time I would have given 80% odds that it was Renard as well. The timing just checks out, but again, that could just be a particularly fragrant red herring. This sort of tactic is not what we would expect of him, but then neither was stealing the Golem. But that’s a discussion for issue 9.

At any rate, Goliath has been captured. We’re gearing up for his day in court (done right this time!).


And here is where I'm going to have to pause my "Here in Manhattan" ramble catch-up for about a week (rehearsals). I'll definitely stop by Thursday night to talk about the Halloween special, though!
****Blaise does a happy little dance...and promptly falls through the hole that opens up beneath him in the floor. A distant "I'm okay!" is heard from below as the floor repairs itself.****
Blaise
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue."
posted @ Wed, Oct 18, 2023 12:11:29 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

Ironwolf> Probably not, they only just announced who'd be heading up the project. If it is greenlit there's still the long process of writing to go through, then the pre-production, filming, and post-production. And we're still fresh off the writer's strike and still going through the actor's strike.

Long story short, Disney probably isn't going to cancel something that's still making them money. And even if they do spite cancel to better integrate the new brand or whatever, that's still a long way's away.
Matthew
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 11:35:03 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Speaking of the comics, I saw a preview for the Halloween Special that showed the opening pages here: https://icv2.com/articles/previews/view/55332/preview-gargoyles-halloween-special-1

[SPOILER] . 1. Castaway's remark about the gargoyles making some progress in good graces feels like a spoiler of sorts for the last three issues of "Here in Manhattan", though fortunately it's vague enough to allow us some surprises. (And I think we were all expecting the outcome of Goliath's hearing to bring about a step forward for the clan, anyway.)

2. We see several gargoyle costumes on the last preview page, including a few of specific gargoyles like Goliath, Brooklyn, and Broadway. They don't seem on the same scale as the trio masks worn by Rosaria and Peter's kidnappers - but organized crime would probably have a higher budget for turning out realistic gargoyle masks than the average trick-or-treater. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 9:49:38 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

So we know how Disney is ..is there any threat to the comic with the live action show?
Ironwolf - [ironwolf16 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 8:47:00 pm EDT from 108.174.97.63

Graymonk > That’s reassuring. I’ll have to watch that, thanks. I always did like Swamp Thing.

FWIW, James Wan also said that Dauberman is a “true fan,” so hopefully he will do right by the property.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 12:43:41 pm EDT from 12.74.238.133

I’ve seen the Swamp Thing show. I liked it enough to buy it on iTunes. The show was strong on mood & character but actual action or fight scenes were absent or mostly off screen.

The show focused on Swamp Thing’s love interest Abby Arcane and the human supporting cast. However, while Swamp Thing wasn’t onscreen all the time, his existence did drive a lot of the plot, especially in the later half of the season. I thought we got to know him as a character but this was partly due to a couple of episodes where he is in human form. One as aspect of the show that I thought was really well executed was the Abby/Swamp Thing relationship. I was rooting for them by the end of the first episode.

What really surprised me was the presence of other supernatural characters like Phantom Stranger & Blue Devil, so we could end up seeing some of the wilder aspects of Gargoyles, like the third race.

Based on Swamp Thing, I’d anticipate a series that’s strong on mood & character development, with a big emphasis on Elisa & her relationship with Goliath, but light on action.
Graymonk
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 12:40:15 pm EDT from 156.34.167.174

Alex > I’d also call the “humans fear what they do not understand” racism/xenophobia/bigotry metaphor an integral element of Gargoyles, perhaps the most fundamental requirement. Any version without that is just going to be a hollow genre exercise.

I also hope that this won’t interfere with the comics continuing in any way, although it’s really too early to worry about that. Plenty of series never get past the development stage. In 2020 Variety reported on a Darkwing Duck show by Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg, and it’s now been three years with no further news. The best case scenario is that the show is successful and brings more awareness to the original series and the comics from people hungry for more.

Has anyone seen Gary Dauberman’s Swamp Thing TV series? I’m not a fan of his movies that I’ve seen, but Swamp Thing has some thematic overlap with Gargoyles and the show was well reviewed.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 10:13:05 am EDT from 12.74.238.133

MATT - Very good points. I think that a reboot would defeat the main purpose of bringing "Gargoyles" back, to continue the original story. And I certainly wouldn't want to see the comic come to an end in order to focus on the new continuity. but at least it means that Disney's aware of the product again.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 9:14:01 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I've got super mixed feelings on all of this stuff.

On the one hand, I'm not wanting to see a reboot (I want to see a continuation or addition), I'm skeptical about the look and feel and the feasibility of live action (though curious, I admit!), and I'm nervous about generating confusion and muddiness in the property. Is this just going to be lumped in with The Goliath Chronicles?

On the other hand, I'm thrilled that Disney is willing to pour money into the property. That alone is outstanding news. And anything that brings more fans and money to the property makes me happy. I'm certainly not planning to be a Gargoyles fan that will dismiss this potential series just because it doesn't fit into my vision of what the Gargoyles property should look like.

Really, I just want more canon stories from Greg. If this isn't going to be that, then that's too bad. But if Greg isn't involved and it is not canon, that doesn't make it bad. It could be great and I'll certainly check it out. As long as canon stories from Greg are coming to me in some format, I'm thrilled. And if this helps that continue to happen, then I'm all for it.

Anyway, Halloween Special tonight! Super excited!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 8:27:28 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

A live-action Gargoyles project can certainly work, practical effects, just like special effects, have improved drastically since the 90's. Some the clan can easily be depicted through some well made prosthetics/sfx work. If it takes a page from the works of Guillermo del Toro or even what was done with Deadpool, I don't think it would be too big a stretch to get most if not all of the clan in the show.
Matthew
posted @ Tue, Oct 17, 2023 2:28:58 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I mentioned this morning that today's the 100th anniversary of the Walt Disney Company's founding. It feels a bit weird that we got the announcement about the projected live-action remake of "Gargoyles" this same day.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 11:13:31 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I'm kind of mulling over what I think are the necessary elements for a live action Gargoyles adaptation. It's tough.

I think in live action, on a streaming budget it's possible to do MAYBE 1-3 Gargoyles. If they were doing it practically with puppetry or something, maybe there could be more.

So it's tough to kinda... picture what live action Gargoyles looks like.

I think:

*Contrasting history with the modern world, and modern ideas of justice vs. medieval justice.
*Shakespeare.
*Romance between Goliath and Elisa; beauty and the beast.

I think if you have those 3 elements, the show can work.

But the lifeblood of that series is the long form ensemble storytelling ala Hill Street Blues. And I dunno how you capture that with a limited streaming budget.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 10:59:01 pm EDT from 70.24.104.181

Yeah, assuming that description is accurate, it sounds similar to the Dean Devlin and John Badham takes on the movie development in the late 1990s in that regard (as well as Greg’s short-lived ‘The Gargoyle’ development of the show). I suppose time will tell (or it won’t). For what it’s worth, James Wan shared the article with the caption “the gargoyle’s out of the bag.”
Craig
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 7:52:40 pm EDT from 166.198.251.124

CRAIG - thanks for the article. I hope this won't endanger the continuation of the comic.

One feature that stood out to me was the implication that Goliath is the only gargoyle left, suggesting that the rest of the clan (Hudson, the trio, Bronx, etc.) have been adapted out. In which case, "Gargoyles" wouldn't be an accurate title for the series, beyond the connection to the old series that the new one (if it does indeed get made) will be based on.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 7:48:54 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

This seems to be legit, given that Variety is reporting it:

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/gargoyles-live-action-series-reboot-disney-plus-gary-dauberman-james-wans-1235758161/

Of course, whether it makes it past the development stage is another question. I do wish these articles would at least give a mention to the comics. Sigh.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 7:01:36 pm EDT from 166.198.251.124

Third.

According to the Old Farmer's Almanac, today is the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Walt Disney Company.

BLAISE - Thanks for your review. Your mention of a saying of Terry Pratchett's when discussing Xanatos reminds me of how, when I read the Discworld books, Vetinari the Patrician often reminded me of Xanatos (though when I mentioned this to a friend who'd also read them, she thought that Vetinari seemed more like the Shere Khan of "Tailspin").

I reread the first two issues of "Gargoyles" after reading your review, incidentally, and will no doubt be similarly rereading #3 after this.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 8:46:54 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Continuing some of the topics that were brought up last week with the nature of prejudice, how many things haven't improved since the 90's, and the gargoyles place in all of this and what it means for the future. There's one more topic that I think we've overlooked, it's a future point mind you and the current narrative is nowhere near that point for the time being but it's something that I thought might be worth considering.

It's the New Olympians and their eventual reveal to the world.

As I've said, that's still a ways off, but I think the actions over Goliath's trial and how both the court and the public deal with this will be crucial for the eventual triune and how they're shaped. A positive outcome could inspire one faction into their desire for peace with humanity and increased relations. On the other hand, a negative outcome could drive up the paranoia and suspicion of the isolationists. Have them think, "If humans are willing to do this to the very beings that guarded them in the night, what do you think they'll do to us?" And the faction desiring conquest? Well, they might just use any slight or attack against them as an excuse to rule over them as gods.

And if humanity is generally upset over beastly beings that dare to think and reason like normal humans, how do you think they'll react to a clandestine group calling themselves gods with technology far more advanced than their own?
Matthew
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 2:51:09 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

****A large number "1" bounces into the room before turning into Blaise.****
FIRST!!

Let's finish out the first arc of "Here in Manhattan".

MIRACLE CHILD> Broadway is the narrator this time and, like Matt before him in “Revelations”, it’s kind of fitting for him to have a bit of a “film noir private detective monologue” thing going on. It wouldn’t surprise me if he sometimes thinks like that, actually. And he trusts his gut enough (no jokes--that will come in a later issue) to listen to it about Xanatos not being the actual guilty party. He brings up how “sometimes the obvious suspect isn’t the perp” but I’m wondering if it’s a whole number of things that together add up to his own personal alarm bells going off here. Not least of which is Fox with glowing eyes--glad to see that show up in the comics, even for a panel. I have to say, I love how Xanatos never loses his smirk and Owen never changes expression.

A couple other thoughts on Broadway’s narration: 1) I love the touch of him using the term “mate” instead of something more human (girlfriend, wife, spouse, partner, etc.). 2) Wow, we got most of the information on the Third Race delivered in a single caption. Not complaining, to be clear; it is fast, but it’s necessary to establish Fox’s abilities and just how bad the situation could be if someone doesn’t deescalate.

Xanatos makes it clear that he would not kidnap children, and (like Goliath) I believe him. I saw some speculation that he may have been in cahoots with Thailog on this in some way back when this first came out, but I don’t buy it. To borrow a phrase from the late Sir Terry Pratchett: like many people with no actual morals, Xanatos does have standards, and this sort of thing would repel him (especially, as he says, given his own experience on the receiving end). It is interesting and fun that, once Talon does put him down, Xanatos immediately starts helping Our Heroes(tm). Comparisons to “The Goliath Chronicles” aren’t wholly fair, but are sometimes inevitable given the ground covered and the nature of the divergences. One of the big complaints of TGC was “Mr. Sappy Good-Guy Xanatos” and how he would still be a schemer with an uneasy relationship with the clan under Greg Weisman’s hand. We got to see all that in the “Clan-Building” arc, but this is the first time in the new material that he is directly assisting the heroes and literally fighting on their side. I love to see this, but I definitely prefer it done like this.

Side note: I’m actually really liking the running gag of “We have to save Maggie! Oh, and uh, Mary too, of course.” It’s a bit mean, yes, but I still laugh.

Speaking of Mary, we cut to her and the rest at Nightstone Unlimited, where Thailog is getting impatient for the birth to happen (well, raising a kid might be *one* way to learn patience...). Before Sevarius can suggest something drastic though (cesarean section?!), the birth starts.

Xanatos has clearly already figured out the responsible parties (and was probably already well aware of Thailog and Demona’s connections to Nightstone, Owen’s “search” notwithstanding), but he’s going to make the others puzzle it out for themselves. It’s funny how he almost treats this like a classroom where everyone’s reluctant to give an answer. Broadway is the one who figures it out, glad to see that. Not much of a stretch for him to think Thailog is behind Sevarius: Thailog had to get the clones from somewhere back in “The Reckoning”.

We finally get the reveal to the characters about Nightstone’s ownership and Thailog’s human alias. And apparently “great minds” think so alike that Thailog decided to call his (copied) security measures the Great Minds Protocol. Yes, I find it amusing as hell. I love Xanatos’s slight annoyance at this, too. But he knows how to counter this, of course.

Coldfire notes with what seems to be some surprise that the forcefield was Xanatos’s technology--it’s a small moment but it stood out to me on my re-read. I don’t know what the significance might be. Either way, she makes use of her infrared vision to locate who they’re looking for and gives a nice burn to Xanatos when he tries to act smug about having “given” her the technology. Like others, I have noted the similarity to the shot of Xanatos in the armor to the MCU Iron Man. Hey, if it works, it works.

Our Heroes(tm) (and Xanatos) burst through the wall (love how Dr. Sato says, “Well, I’m not going THAT way.”) and commence the rescue. Okay, the impish side of me is kind of wishing we had a few more panels of people calling out each other’s names:
TALON: Maggie!!
MAGGIE: Derek!!
GOLIATH: Thailog!!
THAILOG: Goliath!!
SEVARIUS: Rocky!!
[Everyone stops and looks at Sevarius]
SEVARIUS: I...I don’t know why I said that.

Anyway, the battle is on (with Brentwood firing a frickin’ bazooka!). It’s all very exciting, but Maggie is distracted by the whole “birthing a baby” thing (I understand that’s kind of a big deal). Another thing I find interesting: Xanatos is calling Thailog “Alexander” here. Thailog polls his fathers for their “approval” and Sevarius seems to have forgiven the whole “attempted patricide” thing (I think money forgives a lot), while Xanatos opines disappointment. Goliath says nothing this whole time. Not surprising: the last time he saw Thailog, the latter stabbed him in the gut. Words probably aren’t enough right now. Besides, he’s busy holding Thailog while Angela and Broadway disarm the fiend (good idea, since he earlier dis-armed Coldfire).

The child is born, and it’s a boy (news of which stops Talon from what appears to be punching Brentwood in the face) and Sevarius takes the child to show...that it’s “completely human.”
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): Saw it comin’.
Yeah, we’d discussed this long, LONG ago in the Comment Room, and Brainiac brought it back up in March, but Maggie and Derek’s kid was most likely not going to have their mutations passed onto him/her. Of course, it looks like Sevarius attempted to make his mutagen have that affect, but the only way to really know for sure he succeeded was to wait for the kid to be born. I think he and Thailog were playing the Lottery here: they know it’s a major longshot, but there’s still a chance! And they react like people would upon losing the Lottery: Sevarius is frustrated and Thailog is disappointed.
It doesn’t surprise me that A) Thailog lets them go (after all, there’s no more profit in this for him), or B) Our Heroes(tm) don’t try to do anything more to Thailog. Yes, Thailog is a danger and yes, he gets away with minimal comeuppance for the crap he’s pulled, but getting Maggie and the baby out is more important, and they don’t want to do anything more that might put them in danger. They’re given an out, they’ll take it and deal with Thailog on another night.

We now cut to the Gangland story, but not the Dracons. Here, Jack Dane is meeting with four other crime heads to discuss “How do you solve a problem like Dino.” I’m loving the build-up Dino is getting; it’s done a lot to establish him as “the Dreaded” even among the big bad guys of the city.
One thing I’ll get into here: I saw some complaints at the time about how the characters saying each other’s names was “awkward” or “unrealistic.” Why? I really don’t agree with that assessment. I mean, it’s *noticeable* that we learn everybody’s names through the dialogue, sure. I’ll grant that. But the ONLY one whose naming feels a bit awkward to me is Grisha’s (I don’t know why, maybe just the placement in Izaak’s sentence). Everyone else says the other person’s name in what feels to me like a perfectly natural way. This is especially true for Yingpei calling out Huracan, and Grisha agreeing with her--I have been in meetings where people say each other’s names just like this! So yeah, maybe a bit on-the-nose, but not terribly awkward and *definitely* not that unrealistic.
One other thing about Grisha: his dialogue in general felt a bit weird to me at first (saying “you-know-what” instead of “blood”), but after reading a few more issues it makes sense to me that maybe his English isn’t the best (still better than my Russian) and he couldn’t remember some words. It’s also a good way to write around copyright (“The Shining”) and maybe Disney’s censors (they probably didn’t want anyone to say “blood”).

Speaking of censors and blood: how about that new-born baby? Clean as a whistle! (To be fair, this is not just limited to “Gargoyles”, this is a Trope with a long and rich history.)

Back at the Labyrinth Shari is expressing shock that Thailog let them all, including the baby, go (real or feigned, I wonder...) and we learn that Thailog is billing Xanatos for damages (the pair on that kid, man). Coldfire apparently has the same healing capabilities as Coldsteel, and she unknowingly invokes Clark’s Third Law by saying it’s “like magic.” And the new baby is introduced to his paternal grandparents--glad to see them here. The kid is named “Michael Peter Maza” after both of his grandfathers, which means Maggie’s father is named Michael. I didn’t draw the connection at the time, but when I heard Greg Weisman say on Voices from the Eyrie that the name Michael was in honor of Michael Reaves (who passed away not long after publication)...well, I loved it. Michael Reaves was a huge part of what helped make “Gargoyles” as good as it was back in the day. I’m glad for the honor done to him here.

SATO: Considering all he went through to get himself born, he’s a bit of a miracle child. (TITLE DROP!)
MARY: Aren’t they all. (NOT A TITLE DROP, JUST A NICE LINE! Likewise, Goliath responding “Indeed” while looking at Angela.)
And of course, now that the kid’s been born, Broadway and Angela are getting even more ideas.

After more fussing over the kid by the denizens of the Labyrinth, young Michael is put to bed and while alone his eyes indicate that maybe Thailog and Sevarius threw away a Lottery ticket that actually had some matching numbers. My reaction:
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): Saw it comin’.
Yeah, this is pretty much what I figured would happen. It just lends itself to more stories and interesting developments. No obvious cat/bat features (at least not yet), but maybe something a little more hidden. How much you want to bet the kid will also be stronger and faster than normal, too?

So ends the first mini-arc of “Here in Manhattan” and Greg Weisman intends to move away from the “one issue equals one act of the show” style. It makes sense to me, given that comics are a different medium, but I know it will take some adjustment. Especially with how impatient some folks can be--I’ve read reviews of subsequent issues wondering why they’re not following up on the electric-eye baby right away. At any rate, I enjoyed this story: it re-introduced most of the characters, showed the current status quo, and advanced a major plot thread that had been left hanging. Obviously, I would have loved more: more characters, more from the characters that are there, etc.. But overall, I’m loving it and glad to be back in this world.


Okay, I'm going to busy this week: I'm performing in a sketch comedy show for San Diego Who Con this coming Saturday and most of the week will be rehearsing and prep. To say nothing of pretty much being busy all weekend. But, I'll definitely read the issue that's coming out this week (the Halloween Special, I believe) and share my thoughts on that Thursday night. With luck, though, I may be able to ramble on issue 4 Tuesday.
****Blaise pulls out a sheaf of papers and starts going over lines as he walks away, literally fading from view as he does so.****
Blaise
"Somedays you're the pigeon, somedays you're the statue."
posted @ Mon, Oct 16, 2023 12:26:34 am EDT from 45.48.54.221