Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Thanks for making this content so informative!
Tree Service Bowling Green - [buluksura at gmail dot com]
builder16
posted @ Sun, Nov 5, 2023 12:23:14 pm EST from 120.29.76.45

Remember, remember
The Fifth of November
Gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason
Why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Nov 5, 2023 7:19:52 am EST from 174.72.60.154

****Blaise rides a giant sandworm into the Room--not the Beetlejuice kind, the Dune kind.****
Finally reading the original Dune book (better late than never). I have to return it to the library on Monday though, so trying to finish it this weekend. Still time for a ramble on the latest issue, though!

THE PROMISE> [SPOILER] One thing about the title: I remember when it was revealed at the end of issue #3 that someone brought up how similar it felt to the previous issue’s title, “The Oath.” However, “promise” has multiple meanings, one of which is synonymous with “oath” but the other is closer to “potential.” And it looks like *both* meanings are touched on in this issue in various ways (the two species working together, the future generations, etc.).

We see more of Robbie and Alesand here, as they make their way to the construction site for an old, familiar castle (or it will be to us in 1000 years’ time). It’s a fun bit of father-daughter interaction here, and I especially love seeing more of this side of Robbie/The Captain (as he will soon be called). We saw him friendly with the gargoyles in the series, but we also saw him at his worst there, with his betrayal of the humans and failure to protect the gargoyles. To see him here, as a father with a bit of a mischievous streak, is quite a change and welcome.

And we see a Prince Malcolm who’s like a kid with a new toy (it’s easy to forget how young he himself is here). We also finally see the ancient ruins that Greg Weisman indicated were on the hill, so long ago on Ask Greg, and meet a new(?) character: Brother Valdez. By this point, we’ve learned to pay special attention whenever someone with “val” in their name shows up (and Valmont was called “Brother Valmont”). This one is a bit different, though: for one thing, he wears no green that I can see, has a different build, and he also has hair (albeit not on his head, but his chinny-chin-chin). There are enough little hints to take note of here, though: Brother Valdez is the one who unearthed the ruins, and says, while speculating as to their origin, that “perhaps we are not the first” before seeming to hastily add “to ally with [the gargoyles].” Like I said, there’s enough stuff here to twig that something’s...unique with this dude.

But Malcolm happily states that everything is going as planned...in a word bubble that is pointed at Robbie....
OK, I apologize in advance for this, but I first read this issue in the midst of a difficult day and, well, this kind of bubbled up:
{We Interrupt This Ramble For a Rant}
If that word bubble pointing at a random soldier in “The Draw” was supposed to point to Robbie as many of us suspect, then this is the THIRD TIME in FOUR ISSUES that the wrong person is ascribed the line. How’s that saying go? “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action,” I believe. This really should not be cropping up this much! And there’s only so far one can stretch the excuse that “the humans look too same-y”: in “The Reach”, Malcolm was *clearly* the one talking (with open mouth and hand gesture), and here Robbie is *clearly* the one in the green shirt with the drooping mustache. Perhaps it’s because of the international nature of this series’ production and, I admit, I don’t know what the deadlines are like (Lord knows all that contributed to the various errors on the animated series), but...again, this is the THIRD time. I’m sorry--I *hate* the negativity it feels like I’m putting out in this, but this REALLY annoyed me when I first read the issue Wednesday, and still continues to do so (albeit not so much now). Hopefully, these will be corrected in the trade collection (whenever that comes out). All right, that’s enough from me about this.
{We Now Return You to Your Regularly Scheduled Ramble}

While Malcolm is happily nattering on about how great everything is going, Robbie urges caution to avoid any potential accidents to the gargoyles, either their sleeping stone forms or their eggs in the Rookery. Malcolm doesn’t necessarily brush these concerns off, but just basically says, “Yeah, sure, we’ve got it sorted, don’t worry.” As others have pointed out, this tendency to overlook potential consequences is a failing of Malcolm, and one he’s had for his whole life (even in the backstory, where his mother had to remind him that if he and Robbie got caught for their pranks, Robbie would suffer where Malcolm wouldn’t). Of course, he also drops that Robbie is now promoted to Captain, momentarily stunning the older man. While this is going on, Alesand has been looking at the stoned (heh, heh) gargoyles, and upon hearing about the eggs in the Rookery, sneaks off to go see them. The image of her and Hyppolyta’s stone form is interesting to me because Alesand isn’t smiling there. I find myself wondering about that. Is she just curious, or is there something about Hyppolyta that disquiets her? Or am I reading too much into this?

Down in the Rookery, Alesand talks to the eggs, promising to name them and help take care of them, and they will all be great friends...and that they “will not try to scare” her. She’s good with the gargoyles (more than the other humans with the exception of her father, as we will soon see), but that line made me wonder a bit. Did that have to do with Hyppolyta’s stone form above, or something else.

At any rate, the sun sets while she’s back topside looking at a familiar quartet and beast, all of whom wake up around her. This definitely startles Alesand, but she seems to connect with the Trio’s sister right off (I love the shared look they have at the bottom of page 9).

Back at the construction site, the gargoyles are hard at work helping to build the castle. Well, most of them--Mentor has to shout at Goliath and Othello in order for them to pry themselves from their girlfriends and get to work (teenagers, man...). Angel and Desdemona, however, both have other business of their own this night. And in the shadows, two other gargoyles watch, eyes glowing with rage. Iago’s reasons we can all too easily infer from everything else we’ve seen, but Hyppolyta is a bit of a surprise. I’m not sure why the sight of Goliath and Angel together pisses her off, if that’s what it is. I think there was a Reddit thread where someone figured it was a similar situation to Iago’s, only that Hyppolyta was attracted to Angel. I don’t feel I have enough to go on to make any such claim, though, so I will wait and see how this plays out.

We actually see a bit of that on the next page, where Hyppolyta insults Goliath’s abilities under the guise of “help.” Have I mentioned yet that I dislike her (as a person, I mean--as a character, she’s great!)? She strikes me as the sort of person who needs to lose, completely and utterly, before any positive change can happen.

There’s another one of those wonderful “parallel” pages where we see Desdemona studying under Sacrifice on the left, and Angel studying under the Archmage on the right. There’s a fair amount here, so let me break it down row-by-row:
1) Sacrifice and Desdemona are both smiles, with the former complimenting the latter on exploring her spirituality, and responding to her statement about becoming a “warrior-priestess” with “one thing at a time...” Meanwhile, the Archmage (no smile) “compliments” Angel (no smile) on “choosing to serve” him, and responds to her statement about him promising power “to protect myself and my clan” with the same line as Sacrifice. What leaps out on my second reading is Angel’s statement here, or more specifically, the seeming order of her priorities.
2) Sacrifice tells Desdemona to open herself up to the life in the night around her while the Archmage commands Angel to read the first passage on the page in front of her.
3) Desdemona admits she’s not certain how to do as instructed, and Angel admits she doesn’t know how to read. I’m not sure how important the difference in wording here actually is (Desdemona’s “not certain” to Angel’s “don’t know”), but I feel like this could be read as another indicator of their personalities. Something like, Angel’s more “absolute” view of things as opposed to Desdemona’s. Or, again, I maybe reading too much into things.
4) Everyone’s already pointed out the difference in statements between these two teacher figures, so we’ll just take that as read.
One thing that I want to learn more about is the “warrior-priestess” aspect. Is there more than one in a clan (or two, with a teacher and acolyte)? Was Verity one like I thought or just a spiritual gargoyle without being a warrior-priestess also (hence Sacrifice’s, “one thing at a time” line). Can there be “warrior-priests?” I would think so--what we’ve seen about gargoyle culture indicates they’re pretty egalitarian among the sexes. I love seeing more of the culture of a full clan (albeit in the 10th Century). It's also nice to see more of Sacrifice beyond “Tyrants” and “Pheonix”.

But what’s this? A wild troupe of players appears! The very ones mentioned in the wrap-around portions of the prose story--we’ve finally caught up with it! And they’re followed by three kids, one of whom has very white hair...

The players are called the “Light-Bringers” and they’re the Illuminati, they’retheIlluminati, THEY’RETHEILLUMINATI!!! Yes, it’s pretty obvious to most of us. Kudos and cookies to everyone who figured that the Player King and Queen from the prose sections were Peredur and Blanchefleur. I withheld judgement because we only had descriptions to go on and (as my experience with Brooklyn and Alesand’s naming here shows) those can be misleading. But with a name like “Light-Bringers” and the various other hints that will come up (like Brother Valdez noting the “Light-Bringers” name and the Player King winking at him in turn), I think it’s safe to declare these guys the Illuminati. The question now is what brings the Player couple and their troupe out to Wyvern. Well, Malcolm introduces his people (including calling Mentor by that name and saying he’s the Rhydderch of the clan--that’s a word I hadn’t seen before this series, but it will definitely stick with me now), and in turn we meet the rest of the player troupe: in addition to the Player King and Queen, we have Mack Kemp, twins Benvolio and Malvolio, a cute dog named General Bones, and Shari--I mean, Shari--I MEAN, Shahrizad. Nice to receive more confirmation here of her identity. I also love her exchange with Malcolm on the subject of “female players.” As for the others, I can't say for certain that we’ve met any of them before now: Benvolio and Malvolio are of course intriguing (malevolent (or benevolent) masked folk tend to be), and General Bones is cute. As for Mack Kemp..I really don’t have enough to go on yet (and Google gives me no answers). I don’t think he’s Quincy Hemmings for a number of reasons, but he does have my curiosity as piqued as the rest of them.

While Malcolm is welcoming them with open arms, Brother Valdez says the Player King’s accent “betrays a touch of Welsh” (*cough*Peredur*cough*), while the PK says that “Brother” Valdez’s accent is “believably Spanish.” Yeah, there’s hinky stuff going on here. And only now does Robbie realize he’s lost track of his daughter.

Thankfully, she seems to be making friends with the Quartet (and Chaw seems to like her well enough). I like the sort of caution young Brooklyn has here, as well as his sister just out-and-out saying they should be friends, a sentiment the rest of them seem to like. Well, Broadway’s hungry, but I’m sure he feels the same way.

Then the kids who followed the players show up, calling for Alesand so they seem to know her. They stop short, though, when they see her with the gargoyle children and are clearly out of sorts about it. Okay, based on what we know, it’s most probable that the little girl there is Mary, and the white haired kid looks like he could be the Magus (I wonder if he’s the “tiny fair-haired urchin that always followed [Alesand] around” as mentioned in the prose at the end of "The Reach"). This would make them about 5 years old at this time (depending on how much time has passed since “The Oath”). I remember wondering what had happened between 971 and 994 to sour Mary on gargoyles if she had been part of the town near the castle, but now I’m seeing that this is more a case of “unreliable narrator.” Not that Alesand was lying, no, but that she sort of left out the part where the other children weren’t as friendly towards the gargoyles as she was. Likewise, Robbie’s earlier lines about how his village respected the clan doesn’t necessarily mean that they *liked* the gargoyles. It kind of shows how different this father and daughter are from their peers already.

Anyway, the other boy, older by the look of him, is probably Nicolas. While he’s uncomfortable around the gargoyles (especially an off-color Chaw) he is at least able to speak and try to hide his discomfort. He perks right up again, though, when he remembers he came to tell Alesand about the players. He’s also the only one that keeps pace with Alesand and the gargoyles (though he doesn’t look happy about it) while Mary and “Magus” lag behind.

As was the case in the first prose story, there’s no play tonight but there will instead be a story from Shahrizad. The Trio’s sister loves stories, apparently, though Lex clarifies that they all love stories. Broadway notes that he’s still hungry (been there, kid). We see Mentor with some of the clan stand guard while everyone else listens to the story. A bit surprising to see Iago among them. And it does look like it could be a young Schnozz there sitting with the rest of the kids. Brother Valdez tries to sneak off, but is confronted by the Player Queen and has a bit of tense conversation where he states he makes his *own* stories. I look forward to learning more about this.

Well, Shahrizad pulls the same $#!t she usually does and leaves the story unfinished, leading to grousing from Brooklyn and Lex (Broadway’s just tired). Their sister and Alesand, however, are eager to see each other again on the next night. And as they sleep, Alesand names them (for her own benefit, if no one else’s). As was surmised, the sister is Antiope (Alesand’s new best friend!) and Lex is called Alexander. Broadway is confirmed as Charlemagne (the Halloween special helped with that). And Brooklyn...is called Caesar....
[*heavy sigh* passes a cookie to Matt]
Yeah, the “little gargoyle with a long pointy beak” wasn’t him. But can you blame me? I think “beak” I think Brooklyn!
At any rate, this does raise the question as to where Alesand learned these names and why she associates them with these four.

Alesand, who is a little girl that has been up all night, falls asleep right there, and dreams of being in the sky with her gargoyle friends (although, for some reason, she sees herself with feathered wings instead of the Wyvern clan wing style).

We move to the prose section and the next part of the "Three Brothers" story. Apparently, Alesand can’t even remember the third play (I wonder if that’s significant or not--with Greg Weisman, you’re never quite sure), and just focused on the story. But Shahrizad may be showing too much of her hand, what with her accurately recounting what Malcolm and Robbie discussed among themselves, and their resulting consternation at that. If Robbie had a suspicion meter, it would be rising right now....
I like that everyone, human and gargoyle, is able to laugh at little Charlemagne’s comment about betting that the collective roar was them (the gargoyles). I also love Shahrizad’s obvious annoyance at Duff’s adherence to male primogeniture.

There’s a lot to love in this issue. No dragon, true, but that didn’t necessarily need to come the *very next* issue. There are a lot of mysteries set up here that I’m eager to see explored.
Having Mary and the Magus known to the Captain (or at least his daughter) from long ago does seem like a new addition (or ret-con if you prefer), but I don’t mind it. Granted, when putting in connections like these while doing a prequel, there is a fine line between it coming off as neat (even perfectly fitting) and being...well, masturbatory. However, I think this lands on the side of “neat.”
As for any potential “continuity snarl” with the Captain in “Awakening” Part One referring to Mary and Tom as part of the “band of refugees we gave shelter to last night,” I'm with Matt: who says that group was composed only of people from the nearby town? Vikings raiding the coast, refugees from another town they had already sacked fleeing through the Wyvern town (followed by the Vikings) and then both they and the Wyvern townspeople all fleeing to the castle for safety. I mean, the Captain doesn’t need to waste breath saying “that band of refugees we gave shelter to last night *along with our own local townspeople including Mary and her son.*” At any rate, that works for me, too. [/SPOILER]

All right, now I just have to do rambles on issues 5-9 of "Here in Manhattan" and I'll be caught up! Sadly, it's looking like I'll have the whole rest of the month to do that (the latest release schedule shows the next issue in December). Oh well, we had three weeks in a row of new Gargoyles (like Ed, I find myself joyously re-realizing that from time to time)!
****Blaise rides the sandworm out of the Room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 8:08:17 pm EDT from 45.48.54.221

Matt: [SPOILER] I'm laughing so hard. I dunno why it didn't occur to me that she just left the village.There's nothing saying the refugees were from the village or that the village even still exists by Awakening. (Though I think there's some canon in training that does?). [/SPOILER]

Animorphs is a little bit trashy, but in a good way and it's a series that really grew up with its audience. Honestly the chronicles books are kinda the best stuff, at least the Andalite Chronicles and Visser. The latter is basically about a parasitic mind controlling alien falls in love with her host's children and has to account for herself in a trial.

A lot of giving up your happiness to do your duty or giving up on your purpose to find happiness. Both tropes I really enjoy.
Alex
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 6:01:05 pm EDT from 69.158.246.206

I moved to Albuquerque in 2018, so these days, when I watch BB or BCS I spend a lot of time looking at the background to see if I recognize where they are. New Yorkers know this feeling well, picking out little inconsistencies that don't hurt the story but are jarring if you know the geography. Like when one of Fring's men tells Walt "meet near mile marker 9 off the 25 in one hour." That's in Las Cruces, unless Walt used his chemistry to put a rocket engine in his car, that ain't happening.

The Star Wars prequels, IMO, are good at the big picture level but bad at the granular level. This makes sense as Lucas was not so hands-on during the original trilogy. So people can remember the better version in their heads. Also, a lot of people hate Disney and I think they praise the prequels as a way of attacking the sequels.

Some of my favorite prequels are the Chronicles books in the Animorphs series. Animorphs was a series about an alien invasion of Earth, and the main characters rarely left Earth. So there were four prequel books, each focusing on the history of one of the alien species involved in the war. We knew where the story would end, but each one had its own story with new characters and ideas.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 10:57:09 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

There's something about Mary... [SPOILER] I don't see why we can't have it both ways. Mary grew up in the village nearby. She's been to the Castle many times over the years. She's seen gargoyles, but doesn't like or trust them. Maybe she's had some experiences that deepen her fear. She raises Tom nearby. He's heard stories of the gargoyles and is intrigued, but has had no real exposure to them. Maybe just seeing them from afar. 994. Vikings are attacking western Scotland. Hakon leads a large band that is pillaging town to town. People, refugees, are moving to stay ahead of them and out of the way. The refugees come to Wyvern and with an imminent attack, the townsfolk and people from the entire area go to the most strategic place of safety around: Castle Wyvern. When Robbie says his line about providing shelter to refugees, he's quite literal. All of these people, Mary included, are folks displaced from their homes that take shelter at the Castle. Some are from the nearby village, some are from farther away. All are refugees. Tom gets a chance to interact with gargoyles, Mary still fears them. When everything goes down, Mary decides to hitch her fortunes to her old friend Magus. All that makes sense to me. We'll just have to see how Mary's relationship with the gargoyles develops throughout Dark Ages. I don't expect to see any close bonds or positive interactions and so far all we've seen is Mary shocked at Alesand's friendship with some gargoyles, her hesitation at approaching them, and her sitting with the other human children around Shari's fire. All of that fits with what I suspect. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 10:47:14 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

I think the Star Wars prequels just seem quaint at this point is one thing. Like yeah, nostalgia plays a role, but especially compared to a lot of the modern MCU and Star Wars films they're so unchallenging I think it's kind of appealing to folks in a way.

I think Revenge of the Sith is *okay*. It's not a great film or anything, but the opening's fairly exciting and it had the guts to have it's beloved-- uh, it's tolerated -- uh... it's lead hero kill children. So that's... something. It's also not as actively aggravating to watch even though there's so many stupid sequences. I think the thing I dislike about it the most is how it kind of diminishes Tartakovsky's Clone Wars show (does that count as a good prequel?).
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 5:45:33 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Alex: Yeah, my bad. Will be more mindful going forward.

Craig and BCS: [SPOILER] The fact that you mentioned that Gilligan didn't originally want to include Lalo, makes that unconventional approach to the perceived two-shows vibe so remarkable. That one moment in the final season where the worlds collide still gives me chills.

Such a dramatic moment could not have been intended when the show was first being developed, so I'm going to figure that it was a solid, quality writing team that consistently listened to where the characters were telling them where to go next.

Or, as Greg Weisman once wrote: "That's when you know a show is working... when the characters tell you their truths. When it all just feels right." [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 3:35:47 am EDT from 200.66.107.186

I think one of the common traps prequels so often fall into is that they're used as a means of moving the characters like pieces on a chessboard to the starting position of the where the original story began. In truth characters in a prequel can have (and should have) arcs of their own before the "main" story begins. And if the work and world is big enough and filled-in, a prequel doesn't even have to focus on the main characters and came before the story's beginning.

When it comes to the Star Wars prequels, I see it as less of waxing nostalgic for a product they grew up on and more of a case that they see what kind of story Lucas was trying to tell, though the execution of that story was deeply lacking.

One prequel series I think has been really well done is graphic novel series from Critical Role. The Mighty Nein origins covers the backstories of each member's lives and explains why they have the emotional hang-ups that they do. The Vox Machina series covers how the group came together and how they went from a ragtag group of misfits to an adventuring band of some renown. Though it helps that the series is based on the sessions they did before the group began streaming their adventures.
Matthew
posted @ Sat, Nov 4, 2023 1:55:51 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I haven't been able to read "Gargoyles: Dark Ages #4" yet, but on the prequel discussion (the parts of it that I've dared read, that don't have spoiler tags) - I've wondered whether "The Silmarillion" might count as another good prequel. Of course, it actually got written (mostly) before "The Lord of the Rings" and even "The Hobbit", so it's only a prequel in the sense that it got published later. It's also more remote than "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings", with no hobbits to serve as audience-identification figures; it's unalloyed "deeds of mythical heroes". That makes it harder reading, for some, I understand.

I haven't seen "Breaking Bad" or "Better Call Saul", but I join with Ed Reynolds in praising "The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck". And Shakespeare's second set of history plays ("Richard II', "Henry IV Parts One and Two", and "Henry V") are a definite case of the prequel being better than the original.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 11:49:45 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

To add one more thing, I did a semi-chronological rewatch of the Albuquerque-verse earlier this year. I say "semi" because I didn't break out every individual flashback and flash forward scene into its proper place on the timeline, but I did watch

[SPOILER]
Better Call Saul episodes 1-59, followed by all of Breaking Bad and El Camino, and then Better Call Saul episodes 60-63.
[/SPOILER]

It was a great experience and I highly recommend it (to people who have already seen both shows at least once, obviously!). I was really pleased with how well everything fit together.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 8:38:36 pm EDT from 24.46.160.8

This conversation has delighted me.

Ed, you got the biggest laugh out of me tonight, of course.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 8:14:55 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

As to the Star Wars prequels, I coincidentally rewatched them this past summer, after not having seen them since the original theatrical releases (when I was 15, 18, and 21). I know they've undergone something of a critical reevaluation...which I have to attribute to these critics having seen the film at age 6 or so and carrying around nostalgia for it, because Episode I in particular was just a shockingly terrible film, to an embarrassing degree.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:55:40 pm EDT from 24.46.162.144

Breaking Bad / Better Call Saul spoilers

[SPOILER]
Right from the beginning, Breaking Bad was a show about process, that showed us steps that other lesser shows would have deemed "boring" and glossed over (the body disposal in episode 2, for instance). In that spirit, I loved the season about constructing the hole for the lab, the montages of Mike taking apart a car, etc., just as I loved Jimmy meticulously forging documents in a Kinko's. BCS did feel like two separate shows for much of the run (with the Jimmy/Kim as the stronger for the most part, which is not at all a knock on the Mike/cartel part!). But the way the two worlds came together in the final season was so karmically perfect, it really justified that rather unconventional approach. I can't imagine it any other way, now.

The one character I felt was disserved by BCS was Gus. It just felt like he'd lost too much of his mystique and the writers didn't have a ton left to say about him (although I did enjoy his OCD freakouts in the final season). Mike's journey was riveting, although I'm not certain I ever fully felt there was a moment where the knight-in-tarnished-armor of BCS turned into the ruthless cartel muscle of Breaking Bad. It's a subtle thing and a matter of opinion, because obviously the show did lay a TON of groundwork to show the incremental change in him. I'm still not 100% sold on why he'd work for a monster like Gus.

Lalo really kicked the cartel storyline into another hemisphere. That character brings a whole new energy that the show really needed at that point. The amazing thing is that Vince Gilligan didn't even want to include Lalo, as he felt it was too big a headache to shoe-horn in this new big bad who was mentioned once incidentally on Breaking Bad, but Peter Gould insisted on it, and thank goodness he did.

As far as Jimmy knowing who Gus is, I don't believe he ever does in BCS. He only meets him in the one episode, and he doesn't have the context. I don't believe Saul did know who Gus was on Breaking Bad, until later when that loose-lipped Walt presumably told him offscreen. They were pretty meticulous in BCS about tracking who knew what on Breaking Bad and coloring inside the lines.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:43:15 pm EDT from 24.46.160.240

Oh, also, sorry for the double. Saul referring to "Fring" in Breaking Bad happens after Walt's been in business with him for a while. Presumably Walt would have told him about Gus. Even the fact that Gus would describe "knowing a guy (Mike) who knows a guy (Victor) who knows a guy (Gus)" doesn't really match Saul's perception of Gus from Better Call Saul when he met him and barely knows who Victor is as far as I recall. And that whole line is just a joke to show how obscured in mystery and disconnected Saul is from Gus, and how far reaching Saul's contacts are. (That he would have a guy, who knows a guy who knows a guy who's in high end drug distribution who doesn't want anyone to know who he is.)

Though to be fair, I think BCS does a very good job kind of teasing Saul interacting with Gus and the cartel in a way that he's not *super* familiar with them.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:33:01 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

Ed: Huell's initial scene, in season 4, when Saul is at Walt's apartment with him and Skyler, Huell walking in and kind of awkwardly interrupting their meeting gives the impression that Huell is a new hire. Someone Saul isn't very familiar with. But again, that's just the *vibe*. It's not a straight up contradiction.

I just mean these sort of spiritual... figuring out the characters and their relationships, type things are going to happen in a prequel. And they shouldn't get in the way of good storytelling, or telling a good story. And the *tone* of a single line of dialogue shouldn't really matter *that* much. Which is in the same vein as [SPOILER] The Captain's line about the refugees from Awakening. Not even that it's *clear*. But I think you can make a case for him being totally unfamiliar with the refugees with the way Ed Gilbert reads the line. But it shouldn't matter too much. Revisions happen, film is a representative medium; and only bad revisions should be criticized IMO. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:26:05 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

Ed: To be clear, I bought the book, read it, then put it away. Then, years later, I saw that it was worth a lot so I put it in plastic and left it there. Once the reprint comes, I'll have one to read and one to save. I'm not much of a collector in general, but the fact that something I had appreciated that much without my knowing seemed like a happy accident.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:16:55 pm EDT from 73.98.83.6

Ed> Fair point I suppose. I just think it does stand out a bit when stuff happens in the past that the characters would logically bring up at least once in the present. [SPOILER] Thankfully Dark Ages has avoided that so far from everything that I've read. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 5:09:47 pm EDT from 72.49.138.52

So this is daft and if anything a little embarrassing but if anyone can understand it, the people here can. I had a moment yesterday where I suddenly had this huge epiphany… “Hey. We’re getting NEW Gargoyles material! After all this time!” Which, I know, is ‘so 2022’ as an observation but it still, after all this time, catches me by surprise and delight. So cool.

Matt: [SPOILER] Thanks for both those points. Hadn’t thought about Bronx/Gillie. I realised it was Sacrifice just after posting (probably shouldn’t respond at 5am before work but it’s the only time of day I can reliably get a clear run at it). Hadn’t checked her rookery age though. Nice she gets some characterisation. Great ramble as ever. [/SPOILER]

Craig: [SPOILER] Hmm, hadn’t thought about the intense emotion or portraying villains sympathetically as being potential reasons for the redraws but both sound plausible theories. I’ll also second your shout-out for Martina Pignedoli. [/SPOILER]

Star: [SPOILER] AMAZING link. Love that! (Of course, since every rock is The Rock, it definitely is the same one and yet the link to the Megalith Dance perhaps suggests that these kinds of events are more likely here. [/SPOILER]

Alex: [SPOILER] Yeah, I’m still not getting the “it was… Gargoyles Dark Ages” thing either although I’ve kind of gone blind to it now. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan: [SPOILER] Wow, that’s dedication as a collector, not reading that book. (Honestly though, are you ever going to sell that trade?! Hope your grandkids appreciate the sacrifice.) [/SPOILER]

Phoenician: [SPOILER] Great link for Brooklyn. It’s also clear that Lex’s name has some kind of deeper insight - his association with Alexander and his name LEXington. I wonder what the significance is of Charlemagne though? Since Demona has a connection with Notre Dame I wonder if Broadway and Angela also have a future that intersects with France some point? [/SPOILER]

Greg: I think “he’s better than Lucas” has to be the new “it’s better than Barney”. (Have to say though, I’ve never watched an episode of Barney, but I can’t imagine it’s any more apocalyptically dreadful than “Attack of the Clones”.)
[SPOILER] (re: Alesand) I know you’re almost certainly right about Alesand but good grief, we just got done with 8 years of constant existential dread over the fate of Kim Wexler - let’s enjoy a happy issue or two with Alesand!! ;) [/SPOILER]

Craig/Phoenician: [SPOILER] (re: new characters) Look at it this way: our Weismaniacal leader is not averse to new characters. At all. If we went back in time a year or so and posted here about how great Crest was in #10 and how it was nice to see Dino, Antoinette and the Five Families featured in the montage, the room would be perplexed. Greg would absolutely introduce new characters into ‘Dark Ages’ if he needed to and wished to. So there’s no doubt in my mind that the decision not to do that (at this time) is a very deliberate choice. There’s a lot more to say about these characters that we have yet to guess. (Which is one of the reasons, I’m sure, for the spin-off in the first place). [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] Refugees discussion: Why wouldn’t refugees return to a place they knew had provided them shelter in the past? We know there were splits of the gargoyle population; why not splits of the human ones as well? Indeed, it strikes me that the Alliance is likely to drive away people of a more gargoyle-phobic nature.

Robbie discussion: It’s almost easy to underestimate that Robbie is going to have a big arc in ‘Dark Ages’. I mean, HUGE, even by ‘Gargoyles’ standards. In “Awakening”, his betrayal of the humans is slightly overshadowed by the massacre of the gargoyles and I think we’ve always seen his betrayal through Goliath’s eyes. But allowing the people you’ve lived with for decades and have sworn to protect be captured or killed is just… well, as Mike Ehrmentraut would say, a bell you don’t unring. And something that will only become more meaningful and pathos-filled as we (hopefully) meet more and more characters. We’ve seen trauma and tragedy befall Macbeth, we’ve seen all shades of Demona but to see a character who in 971 terms is pretty unambiguously heroic (and in 1996 who reclaims that heroism) take such a dark, brutal path is going to be very big. Certainly hope there’s more ‘Dark Ages’ before too long.

Val discussion: The Bible is not my area of expertise but the Christ imagery of the cup and the bowl and the references to ‘valley’ makes me think of the famous quote: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Does 'of the valley' in this case simply mean that they are mortals? Or something more? [/SPOILER]

Glad I’m not the only one to find Saul absolute god-tier television. It may be my favourite live-action drama of all time. I do think what connects Greg and Gilligan/Gould is the obsession over detail.

Jurgan: While I'd maybe concede the Mike/cartel strands were slightly weaker than the Jimmy/Kim arc (what isn't?), I really don't see the problem. The bell was both a necessary 'supervillain origin' story and told us a lot about Lalo, Hector and the relationship between the two. It also, into the mix, told us a lot about where Nacho stood in this pecking order. Similarly, the storyline dedicated to the construction of the lab had a lot more going for it - it showed Mike drastically scaling up his methodology and also killing for the first time. It was the reason the Cold War we see end in 'Breaking Bad' began and obviously represented a huge repudiation of the cartel's power over Gus up to that point so obviously needed to be treated as significant. I kind of love that something that was just a fait accompli in 'Breaking Bad' was treated as a quite significant problem here. At best, I think it's fair to say that the Mike and Jimmy sides of the show were fundamentally two different prequels co-existing and occasionally crossing over but that's fine as both were excellent. I wish we'd seen more of Gus but actually a third concurrent plot may have stretched the elastic too far.

Craig: Oh yeah, "Life and Times" is a great shout.

Kate: I mean, to be fair, how often would you expect a TV series to have plot lines that are still relevant 10 years (let alone 1000 years) later? Every series is in a time capsule in that sense. [SPOILER] But Greg's tapestries expand in all directions and I fully expect the 'Dark Ages' stories to intersect with everything else. I mean, I wouldn't have guessed we'd get more of the Peredur/Duval storyline so early and yet... [/SPOILER]

Alex: (Better Call Saul) I don't think there's anything that suggests Huell was unknown to Jimmy before 'Breaking Bad' -- the opposite if anything, given how trusted he was (remember, BB takes place in a very compressed timeline - it's only a roughly 9-12 month slice of Jimmy's life. As for Saul and Gus, he says he "knows a guy who knows a guy... who knows another guy". Later on, he's much more explicit in talking about "Fring". Partly that could be caution not to suggest he knows too much early on. But also, he doesn't really know much at all if you boil it down.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 4:55:21 pm EDT from 86.149.55.246

Re: [Redacted]'s presence in Dark Ages #4: [SPOILER] I think Mary being present at the castle while it's being built is fine honestly. I find these sort of... I guess soft retcons is the best term, okay. The fact that Mary & Tom are refugees in Awakening is also just such a *minor* aspect of the storytelling. A way to explain why Tom is asking questions about the Gargoyles, and a kind of "Pet the Dog" moment for the humans and Gargoyles of Wyvern. On most re-watches I forget that they're refugees because it's really just a very minor pretense.

Having said that, I think the spirit of the Captain's line "they followed those refugees..." is totally at odds with this. Just the way it's said, he's not describing a group of people he's all that familiar with. That's the tone. But it's literally just one line of dialogue from one episode.

On the subject generally, it's a lot less indulgent and hacky than "Luke and Leia are siblings" or "Anakin build C-3PO". But it's still pretty indulgent anyway. But what's the point of writing if you can't be indulgent every once in a while? It's fine. And I think largely it comes down to, how important was the story that was changed. What's really lost?

Anakin building C3PO is cheap fanservice and I think kind of trying to overexplain things, Luke and Leia being siblings was a cheap way to close the loop on "there is another" while also resolving the Luke-Leia-Han love triangle without cuckolding Luke.

Mary being a child from Wyvern... isn't either of those things. [/SPOILER]

Phoenican: [SPOILER] I know you didn't mean any disrespect, but I do prefer Alex. Calling me Aldrius just feels so infantilizing at this point. I made that name up when I was 13, and now I'm 34.

I like "troupe". That's fun. I haven't really looked through the in-depth timeline much, without story context it doesn't interest me that much. But it is kind of intriguing.

Another interesting thought (I think), is that the Illuminati call themselves "Light Bringers". And I think in this context, that means bringers of joy, happiness, life (you should see the dental plan). While "The Light" in Young Justice, the light is more about truth. Knowledge. Destruction.

Also to be clear, I'm not saying that Greg's being repetitive or derivative with that comment, just that I find how something can be re-contextualized interesting. Or how a similar concept can be interpreted. [/SPOILER]

Breaking Bad spoilers (in reference to what we're talking about so I'll be safe): [SPOILER] I mean I think the logistics of digging the hole was really cool. The only thing that was ever odd about it was how aware Saul had to have been of Gus. Whereas in Breaking Bad he's not really familiar with him. Same with Mike having this ancient blood feud with the Salamanca cartel. Good story, doesn't really fit what happened in Breaking Bad. Huell is first hired in Breaking Bad in season 4 (after Mike beats up Saul in his office). They do not initially have the same rapport and their relationship does not nearly have the same significance then that it does in Better Call Saul. Does it contradict anything? Sort of. Again, I think it's contradicts something really nebulous. The feel, the intent. Which I think is important, and I don't think that should be ignored.

But ultimately, I think the bottom line is: don't let continuity get in the way of a good story. [/SPOILER]

As for good prequels: I love Days of Future Past, I think Rogue One is pretty watchable but both VERY much suffer from that "spiritual betrayal" problem, and are incredibly, unbelievably self-indulgent. House of the Dragon's a great prequel, but is so far removed from the original Game of Thrones it's kind of immaterial. (Though ironically, Game of Thrones spoils the *HELL* out of House of the Dragon in a throw away line)

Though, in it's own way Gargoyles is it's own prequel, we're constantly jumping around through time seeing prequel type events that iterate and extrapolate on things we thought we knew or never knew. And that's a fantastic prequel.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 4:39:13 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

Phoenician, Greg Bishansky> Better Call Saul spoilers ahead? [SPOILER] My big critique against prequel media is one that's kind of inescapable. And that's that if you write a new character or plot for the past, it's so incredibly hard to write in new characters and events and have them still somehow feel relevant past their own prequel bubble. Even in the best examples of prequels such as Saul, I still have my own critiques of how it handled characters like Lalo. Kim's survival to present times in that series was handled well enough, it's a difficult game to play. So far Dark Ages has been pretty good, I just fear for how it'll wrap up all of its new elements when the time comes. There's only so much you can do within a time capsule. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 3:53:44 pm EDT from 72.49.138.52

Bishansky > Good points. I’m just calling ‘em as I sees ‘em as the story progresses based on the (limited) information we have. I’m always happy to be pleasantly surprised at having misjudged! And also happy if anything I say triggers a talking point on the podcast. (Speaking of which, I wonder if that Green Knight statue might get a mention in one of the “Avalon” podcasts…. :)

It is indeed difficult to think of good prequels. The Godfather Part II is half a great prequel. Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me is a great prequel that makes the TV show way more powerful in retrospect. When it comes to books…The Magician’s Nephew. With plays, the Henry IV’s and Henry V. In comic books, “The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck.” Not a lot of others jumping to mind besides BCS (and Dark Ages!).
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 3:44:26 pm EDT from 166.198.251.108

Better Call Saul was practically two different shows. Jimmy slowly turning into Saul was great, but the cartel plotline fell into a lot of common prequel traps. There was a lot of mechanically moving characters into the places they're supposed to be, an entire season devoted to the logistics of digging a hole, and little Easter Eggs for fans. One of the worst moments was when Lalo gave Hector his bell, you could practically hear the writers screaming "Look, it's the bell! You wanted to know how he got his bell, right?" Not really? I guess the idea was to show Mike following a parallel path to Jimmy, but parts of it were overly tedious. Still better than most prequels.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 3:36:37 pm EDT from 73.98.83.6

Phoenician> Glad you brought it up so I didn't have to...

But yes, in the world of prequels there are two doors you can open in how they turn out. One door is the Star Wars prequels, the other is Better Call Saul. So far, Dark Ages has been within that second door... not that I had any doubts that it would. Prior to "Saul", prequels usually had a bad reputation and then "Saul" proved that with the right amount of thoughtfulness, care, they can be great.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 11:22:53 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

GregX: [SPOILER] Oh, I'm not worried that this won't ever make sense. To compare to another prequel series, Better Call Saul (minor spoilers), my befuddlement with Mary and Tom is similar to my constant-wondering of just when is Jimmy going to start going by Saul (let alone *become* Saul). With two issues in Dark Ages to go, I imagine we'll have enough pieces to put together, even if its not fully explained. Which it doesn't always need to be: like how Saul got his inflatable Statue of Liberty, we got enough and I didn't need more. In fact, see below:

I fear for Alesand. I greatly fear for her. This ups the significance of his betrayal. The gargoyles, by this point, were the only ones he felt any kind of connection with. But yes, this betrayal includes the village he grew up in and friends of his daughter. Why? Because "they're not my kind".

Yes. And while I figure the refugees in "Awakening" were Scottish, that additional quote and perspective from the Captain might be the piece I needed reminding. It isn't hard to think the Captain was also disillusioned with the humans of the village as well as those humans in the Castle by 994. The line about "never violated their daylight sanctity" sounds at first like this is a village in harmony with the Wyvern Clan, but it really is a a low bar to pass -- just don't smash them like some other humans. Leaving them alone during the day doesn't prevent the wide variety of bias and prejudice from the local villagefolk that we are seeing in this miniseries.

And yes, should something tragic happen to Alesand, the village is left with children that already have demonstrated they are less enthusiastic with the gargoyles. It won't matter if the previous generations did see the clan as protectors (and perhaps Robbie was simply making his best case to the Rhydderch), we've certainly seen in our own lifetimes how attitudes can change from one generation to the next; for better and for worse. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 11:15:52 am EDT from 189.146.106.240

[SPOILER] Dark Ages 4 makes pretty clear to me something that I’ve suspected for a while. The Illuminati of the 10th Century is a whole different animal from that of the 20th century. If the Norman ambassador not using the number system in Vows wasn’t a clear enough indicator, then The “Upper Echelons” acting as a theater troupe cemented it. Which makes a definite logical sense. If the goal was originally ‘to set things right’ then there had to have been a creeping, almost insidious corruption within the Society to get it to what we see in the present.

That said, I haven’t the foggiest idea of what the “Vals” mean. [/SPOILER]
Chip
Become a writer, you can be petty~~Roshni Chokshi
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 9:43:05 am EDT from 174.243.50.76

PHOENICIAN> [SPOILER] "But the way the Captain explains it in that first episode seems to counter all that: "These rogues no doubt followed that band of refugees we gave shelter to last night" I just find that an odd way to phrase people he likely knew and that his daughter grew up with. So for now, I'm thinking refugees not from the village on the Reach. For now."

Well think about the scene when the Captain says it. They're dodging sword strikes, catapults, they're under siege. The Captain is explaining the situation to Goliath as quickly and efficiently as they can. He's also correctly using the word refugee, they fled their homes to seek shelter in the castle. I know we tend to think of refugees as people from another country but in a medieval world, people from the next town over....

"I just find that an odd way to phrase people he likely knew and that his daughter grew up with."

I keep saying this over and over again. I fear for Alesand. I greatly fear for her. This ups the significance of his betrayal. The gargoyles, by this point, were the only ones he felt any kind of connection with. But yes, this betrayal includes the village he grew up in and friends of his daughter. Why? Because "they're not my kind".

CRAIG> "Ah, I see your point about the oddness of that line from the Captain in “Awakening.” Hm. I think the “Gordian knot” answer is that this is the reality of filling in backstory after the fact, that sometimes things don’t fit exactly perfectly."

Or maybe it does, maybe Greg has given this a lot more thought than you're giving him credit for. I don't see any contradictions. Now maybe I'm personally cutting Greg more slack than I'd cut say... George Lucas... but Greg is much more talented than Lucas, and has demonstrated over and over that he's better at this. Much better at this.

"This kind of thing is why I’m not crazy about the approach of slotting recognizable characters into these backstories as frequently as Greg likes to do. These village kids could have been new characters and nothing really would have been lost."

Disagree, this adds new dimensions and enhances what we've seen... doesn't detract like say Anakin building C3po or Luke and Leia being siblings. If anything, this explains how and why Tom and Mary found themselves with Princess Katharine and the Magus in "Avalon Part One"... more than just going through a traumatic time. Magus reconnected with childhood friends after that traumatic night?

"I know it’s fun for fans to catch a glimpse of a younger version of an established character, but establishing that Mary and Magus and the Captain’s daughter all ran in the same pack does change the dynamics, and raises some questions about the portrayal of Mary in the original show."

Does it really? As we're seeing over and over and over that fear doesn't need some kind of grounded rationality to it. Mary is keeping her distance at this time, clearly afraid of the gargoyles... and it's going to take something dramatic to bring her out of this... like the events of "Awakening Part One and Two" and her open-minded son. Hell, my racist grandmother who was born in the Bronx and lived most of her life in Brooklyn is still, to this day (assuming she's still alive... I have no idea) terrified of black people despite being around them all of her life... and, unlike how Tom came out, my grandmother didn't raise open-minded children who would have helped educate her.

But thank you, we haven't recorded "Avalon Part Three" yet for Voices from the Eyrie, and this line of thinking has crystalized something that I really have wanted to say on the show for a while. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 7:48:15 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

Phoenician > [SPOILER]
Ah, I see your point about the oddness of that line from the Captain in “Awakening.” Hm. I think the “Gordian knot” answer is that this is the reality of filling in backstory after the fact, that sometimes things don’t fit exactly perfectly. I certainly think the intent of “Awakening,” at least at the time, was that Mary and Tom were part of the refugee camp. This kind of thing is why I’m not crazy about the approach of slotting recognizable characters into these backstories as frequently as Greg likes to do. These village kids could have been new characters and nothing really would have been lost. I know it’s fun for fans to catch a glimpse of a younger version of an established character, but establishing that Mary and Magus and the Captain’s daughter all ran in the same pack does change the dynamics, and raises some questions about the portrayal of Mary in the original show. It’s nothing that shatters the reality or anything, but it does feel like a bit of a retcon.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 1:15:15 am EDT from 166.198.251.108

Just realized in DA #4: [SPOILER] Brooklyn being dubbed Caesar by Alesand is a fun hint that one of his TimeDancing destinations is believed to be at Augustus Caesar's court, when the Spell of Humility gets cast by the first known person to unite Three Keys to Power (I am now guessing its not always the same three Keys). [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 1:05:57 am EDT from 189.146.106.240

Craig: [SPOILER] Oh, poorly positioned adjective (or at least one that didn't do the job I intended) -- I just meant that the village is older than the Castle, logically.

"Presumably these three kids (Nicolas, Mary, and Magus) came up to see the castle construction on this particular day, as did Alesand. I'm guessing it was a bit of a village excursion."

Yeah, that is what's got me wondering -- were Mary and Tom residents/locals that just happened to be mixed in with (and maybe even helping) the refugees mentioned and seen in those early scenes in "Awakening: Part One"?

Because my thinking is that if Mary & Tom were considered *part* of that band of refugees, and this miniseries demonstrates that Mary was no stranger to Castle Wyvern (and Tom likely grew up nearby too, with travel being much harder in those days), then it follows that the Vikings must have attacked the village first and then the Castle in 994.

But the way the Captain explains it in that first episode seems to counter all that: "These rogues no doubt followed that band of refugees we gave shelter to last night" I just find that an odd way to phrase people he likely knew and that his daughter grew up with. So for now, I'm thinking refugees not from the village on the Reach. For now.

Would love to see a shot of just how far the Castle is from the Reach; that would help a bit. [/SPOILER]

Aldrius: [SPOILER] Troupe? Society? Canon-in-training suggests that whoever started the Illuminati (I phrase it that way given our Valnigma? Can't think of anything clever) founded it in 642 (a century after Arthur Pendragon fell at Camlann) to "make things right". So we might be witnessing that early take on it, or perhaps when the group is on the cusp of when their priorities became . . . more skewed? More manipulative? Was it *ever* as altruistic as it was supposedly set out to be? Guess we'll see :D [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Nov 3, 2023 12:25:39 am EDT from 189.146.106.240

[SPOILER] I *kinda* feel like it's possible they're not quite the modern day illuminati just yet. They might not have captains of industry and kings and such at their beck and call. Likely they are more like a travelling troupe of players, inviting people to join their brotherhoo- fraterni-...I can't think a gender neutral term for it. But like it's still early days and the group is still growing. That's kind of at odds with 975 when Xanatos travels back in time and meets up with the norman ambassador. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 11:39:40 pm EDT from 70.27.161.86

[SPOILER]
I realized right away that the "light-bringers" represented the Illuminati, but not that they were the high command. (I don't want to touch my SLG trade as it's rare and safely in plastic, but once the reprint comes out I definitely need to reread.) It's a bit odd that the bosses are so hands-on after a few hundred years, you'd think they would delegate. My best guess is that they learned from timedancing Brooklyn that a lot of future developments would revolve around Wyvern Castle, pushing it up the priorities list. Wonder if anyone in the court of Wyvern is a member- the Archmage, maybe? Also, Mack Kemp might be Quincy Hemmings. Hemmings is kind of the odd man out from what we've seen, we never saw him with the Arthurian characters but I figure he must have a history with them. As for all the "Val" characters, best guess is they're clones or dopplegangers or "one person in multiple bodies" created by the Holy Grail.
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 10:11:12 pm EDT from 73.98.83.6

Phoenician >

[SPOILER]
I'm not clear on what you mean by "the older village." Am I forgetting a piece of lore? My understanding is that Mary and Tom lived in a village near Wyvern Hill, and when the Vikings arrived, Mary and Tom and the other villagers were granted sanctuary within the castle walls. This is presumably the same village where Alesand is being raised by her grandmother in 971. Presumably these three kids (Nicolas, Mary, and Magus) came up to see the castle construction on this particular day, as did Alesand. I'm guessing it was a bit of a village excursion.

Star's observation about the Stone of Destiny is an interesting one. I wonder if that might also help explain the presence of the Players, if they suspect the Stone is in the area. Hmmm...

Does anyone have any theories to share on how the whole Percival/Duval/Valmont/Valois/Valdez ball of wax fits together? I have to admit, I'm delightfully flummoxed. Just looking at the list of Arthurian survivors, I had a cockamamie idea once upon a time that Duval/Valmont could be the Green Knight, primarily just because of the link to Percival's father Gawain (and most incarnations of the character have at least some green in their costuming, although Brother Valdez seems to have broken that convention).
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 2:55:13 pm EDT from 24.46.161.214

Three weeks of new canon got the best of me! Didn't have a chance to jot down my thoughts on Dark Ages #4 before today. Ah well, another great read: [SPOILER]

Much like everything that's been revealed since "Hunter's Moon" and "Phoenix" & "Losers", seeing those foundations of Wyvern -- talk about barely scratching the surface! lol.

With another Val thrown in the mix, it doesn't hurt to remember that Percival and Peredur have also yet to be fully understood, since GregW has insisted that "Nothing's changed" from his Arthurian survivors -- cryptically clever as always -- Duval is supposedly tied into Percival in some fashion, but with Valdez, Valmont, and Valois all running around, who knows?.

And "Architect to the King" -- So he is on loan from Kenneth II, to make a reality of Prince Malcom's new title as Prince of Wyvern?

I also like Malcolm continuing to refer to Mentor as Rhydderch -- curious if the now-canon clans of Scone and Loch Ness also used the title? It really adds to the fact that Hudson will be the only gargoyle with the Scottish accent in the 1990s.

Though I can keep track of the dates well enough, I sometimes forget to appreciate the weight of those dates; most frequently, who is in this particular rookery batch. It usually takes me a beat that this isn't the rookery of the Avalon eggs, because that is most definitely another generation that won't even BE eggs until 988. So thank you, Matt, for reminding me of who is in this current generation!

Light Bringers arriving at Wyvern is curious indeed. I can't help but wonder if, to keep the theatre troupe analogy going, The Player and King and Queen are 'talent-scouts' of a sort, and Prince Malcolm does well enough that Peredur eventually sends the Norman Ambassador with Princess Elena and the Phoenix Gate four years later. Really makes me wonder the Ambassador's real escorting priorities.

Mary's name was in Alesand's writings from the beginning, so I've been mulling this over for some time. I guess Mary and Tom weren't necessarily part of the band of refugees that Princess Katharine sheltered at the castle in 994, but rather they were always locals to Wyvern Hill. That, or I guess she and Tom could still be part of the band of refugess if Hakon in 994 pillaged and plundered the older village before moving up to the Castle.

I had forgotten Caesar as a name Alesand mentioned before, so its kinda a fluke that I was managed to accurately tag the costumes for Angela, Broadway, and Lexington in "Trick-Or-Treat" -- Lexington in particular could have tripped me up with the similar enough styles of Roman and Greek soldier garb. At any event, its been another fun connection between the past and present-day stories, much like the echoes of human-gargoyle relations at curious, cautious wax and the youths of each species getting along, as others have mentioned.

It would be really cool if Alesand is experiencing a dream with the Spirit of Destiny. Guess we'll see. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 1:36:15 pm EDT from 63.158.47.181

Jurgan: [SPOILER] The boy doesn't really seem like the magus. I think the magus is more likely to be that white haired boy at the camp fire. For some reason I've had it in my head for a while that the Magus was 19 in 994, but he was 28. And that Katharine was 14, but she was 18. Huh. [/SPOILER]

Couple more observations because I'm a scatterbrain:

[SPOILER] +Went to look up Peredur on the Gargwiki and see Greg B's already updated the article. Now that's dedication.
+I love how whenever guests show up at Wyvern, even when it's a hollowed out construction site, Prince Malcolm is still the model host. Immediately offering lodgings and food to his guests.
+The Desdemona/Demona stuff was cool. The contrast between the two is interesting and I've always wanted to see them interact more. Which we... don't technically get here, but still. The contrast is fun and could set some things up in Quest. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 4:23:11 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Dark Ages #4. Gonna do this one as a ramble.
[SPOILER] -What a great intro. Sunny hill, and our first look at Castle Wyvern. This is the sort of moment that a prequel aspires to, and few rarely pull off. I think this was really cool.
-I wish the editor, or whoever could have, at least added "the" to these intros. It's just a grammar error to say "It was... Gargoyles Dark Ages". At least with "the Gargoyles Dark Ages" you can kinda get the gist of it, even if Dark Ages should be in larger font; but it just sounds like an error this way.
-I think one thing that's neat here, is this really justifies Goliath's insistence on the Guards by Day, Gargoyles by night approach. It wasn't just a matter of logic, it was his friend Prince Malcolm's dream. So even when it wasn't working, or other people were unhappy with it, it strengthens the idea of why he was so insistent on sticking to it.
-Lotta cute scenes.
-I like this little troupe of players.
-Which... are pretty obviously, basically, the illuminati. Their first appearance in ten years. I like how Blanchefleur immediately dislikes Valdez. So if we presume (and I think it's a fair presumption, though I think there's also more to this than meets the eye), that Brother Valmont, Duval, Valdez and Valois are all the same guy.... then what's his deal? It's sort of hard to tell with the art, because the designs keep changing and the art is not consistent (Dark Ages and Gargoyles also have a different style broadly) so it's kind of hard to take anything from how he *looks*. But to my eyes Valmont and Valois look very much alike, while Valdez looks like Duval. But like I said that could mean NOTHING.
-Of his many names, Valdez is his only spanish one, I believe all the others are French. Visual medium so it's hard to say what sort of accent he has or anything.
-But I really love this take on the Illuminati as story tellers, tricksters, and good natured entertainers. The group kind of invites comparisons to Young Justice's The Light, and it's neat how different they are. The Light are conquerors, captains of industry, powerful and ambitious people. Malicious and cunning. Intent on improving society and humanity through violent evolution. Peredur almost seems kind of the opposite of that. Mirthful, and personable.
-I don't think I REALLY appreciated our introduction to Peredur back in the SLG comics. Here's who must be the most powerful man in the world, and he just... didn't interest me. I think there just wasn't anything for me to really latch onto and there just being so many half-introduced ideas being present at once. But this issue with him as the fey-like storyteller *REALLY* got my attention, I think we got a little more time with them and I am super intrigued now. (Also, no shade on the SLG art but it didn't really give him the sort of wide-eyed dreamer look Moss gave him in this issue, he's *CUTE*)
-Okay, sorry, done thirsting over Peredur.
-I think this issue did a really good job balancing a lot of stories, it made me think of Marv Wolfman a bit. Marv Wolfman will take a story where effectively nothing really happens on paper, and make it feel like the most consequential, momentous story of all time. And there was a bit of that here. Important things are happening but there's no real plot "meat" so to speak, but despite that it still felt really engaging.
Really, really enjoyed this issue. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 3:54:59 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

[SPOILER] "My guess: this is young Magus."

Or maybe not, everyone else seems to think the white haired boy with no lines is young Magus. I guess he does look more the part.
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 2:35:03 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

Dark Ages #4:
[SPOILER]
A bit of downtime after the previous action-packed issue. Not an awful lot to comment on. Demona and Desdemona's parallel training sessions were nice, and the Archmage says "you have a lot of work" rather than "we have a lot of work." Archmage takes every opportunity to be a jerk. BTW, I missed last issues conversation, but my interpretation of the Archmage's behavior was that he thought all the hand signals were silly. He went along with it so as not to make waves, but his grin was fake because he felt the whole thing was undignified.

Alesand's new friendship with the gargoyles is sweet. A little boy comes to get her but seems decidedly uncomfortable around gargoyles. My guess: this is young Magus. And the "light-bringers" are obviously the Illuminati, including Sharizad. So this all but confirms the popular theory of her true identity, even if it's a different spelling. Funny how the main story caught up with the text story. I think the other characters are Shakespeare allusions, though I don't know enough to say who they all are.

And we see something about people who lived at Wyvern and built foundations long ago. I assume they were the same people who built the ancient megaliths underground. Maybe the same as the Lost Race, but that's something Greg has been very quiet about.
[/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 2, 2023 2:18:59 am EDT from 73.98.83.6

Happy belated Halloween! And now for some quick thoughts on #4 of Dark Ages.

[SPOILER] No dragon?! 0/10, no stars, worst comic ever.

This issue makes a great companion piece to the Halloween issue with the focus on kids and the gargoyle human relations. Young Alesand is wonderfully adorable and I like her declaration that Antiope is her new best friend after just one night listening to stories. It's such a nice little kid thing to say, one uninhibited by prejudice or superstition, it actually makes me a little sad to know that the future won't have similar sentiments. But at the same time we have hints of conflict coming from Hippolyta and Iago; we know that some questionable parenting methods used for Katherine helped weaken human and gargoyle relations, but what if there was something involving members of the clan that also contributed to it? It's just a single panel but the two of them are really giving some ominous vibes.

We still don't have an answer on the mysterious ruins under Wyvern Hill, I wonder how much more digging they'd have to do to find the Megalith Dance. In any case, we have another mystery in the form of Brother Valdez, the oddly placed Spanish monk. I'm going to have to do some research on what relations were like with the British Islands and the Iberian Peninsula. But maybe another time because the Players are here. Nice touch from Greg with the "Player King," a nice way to get more Shakespeare references in. I'm curious as to the reason for these...Light Bearers to show up though, this isn't the kind of group or people to show up without reason. It maybe nothing more than overseeing this castle built by human and gargoyle cooperation, but I have this notion that there's more to this.

Next issue is called Dream and appropriately has Alesand going off into a dream of her own. I figure that's just the elation from making new friends. But we are pretty close to an area ripe with unknown magic power. Here's hoping that isn't part of the reason we don't hear about Alesand by the time of the series start. [/SPOILER]

Anyway, that's all for now. Can't wait for the next issue!
Matthew
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 11:22:21 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matt >

[SPOILER]
Ok, I see what you mean about his mouth not being attached to his "beak" the way that Brooklyn's is. He's just got a very long, pointy chin that makes it look that way from some angles, and that's the way I was remembering him. Fair enough. Although I will still say that it feels like a massive stretch to me that Alesand would refer to the model we see here as having a pointy beak! (Granted, she may be thinking of his later look if she knew him for that long.)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 4:30:02 pm EDT from 24.46.161.41

An observation I had about Dark Ages 4 that I haven't seen anyone else make yet:
[SPOILER] It looks like Alesand put her head down on one of the Stones of Destiny like Jacob's Pillow, because her dream flying like an angel reminded me of Shari's story about Jacob's Pillow and his vision of angels. [/SPOILER]
Star
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 4:24:03 pm EDT from 47.233.97.157

Craig> [SPOILER] Well, Schnozz's beak doesn't really include his mouth. He just has a big nose (as an adult anyway). And, in the story, from both the side and from the front, it is clear that his nose is bigger than, say, Broadway or Lex's. Perhaps the Drew could've drawn it even bigger, but he definitly drew it to be bigger than a normal nose. And, like I said, gargoyle features seem to be muted as youngsters and develop as they do. Brook's beak is also proportionally smaller than it would later be, and Gabriel also showed proportionally smaller horns as a kid. So, I'm pretty confident that it is meant to be him. That's my take on it. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 4:09:34 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Matt >

[SPOILER]
I agree on the hairlessness and color, but as Brooklyn might say, "the nose is all wrong." If you look at the frontal shot of him on the bottom of page 20, he doesn't have a beak at all. His mouth is depicted as being separate from his nose, more of a human-like facial structure. Skeletally, there's just no way those two models are the same person. (I'm not ruling out that it was meant to be him and it's an art error, but I also don't see enough resemblance to automatically infer this.)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 3:36:23 pm EDT from 24.46.160.98

Craig> [SPOILER] Schnozz is that fifth young gargoyle sitting around the fire. Coloring and hairlessness is right. And he's definitely got a big nose, though it'll get even more pronounced as he gets older (this seems to be a common thing for gargoyles: horns and beaks are less developed in childhood). And if that isn't enough, in Issue 1, Alesand refers to the fifth youngster as having a big beak. So, I'm fairly confident it is Schnozz, and I'm glad to see him. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 3:20:41 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Dark Ages #4

[SPOILER]
Third week in a row with a new comic! Hurray! And all three issues have been pretty "feel-good," with all three presenting some positive depictions of human-gargoyle relations.

One again, the solicitation misleads (as does the awesome Kenya Danino variant cover). No dragon. Instead, we get an altogether quieter, lower-key story than the prior three issues, a tone which I enjoyed very much.

Like the Drew Moss cover for #3, the Clayton Crain cover for this issue was altered after the initial solicitation. Not completely redrawn, as the Moss cover was. The background remains the same, but Demona is redone. Interestingly, the original versions of both covers featured Demona crying. I wonder if this is some Disney edict about not portraying a villain as sympathetic on the cover? Or if perhaps they just found the intense emotion too much for kids, or potentially bad for sales?

Love Drew Moss's work on Alesand and Robert's expressions. He really sells their relationship. Also, that stunning double page spread of the castle construction. I'd hang that on my wall.

And while all the colorists at Arancia Studios have been doing a beautiful job on the main Gargoyles title and the Halloween Special, Martina Pignedoli deserves to be singled out for her work on Dark Ages. Every issue has been so great and evocative. The skies in this issue, both day and night, are gorgeous and add so much to the mood.

Brother Valdez, hmmm? Where did this guy come from? He seems to be a Spanish monk, but also an architecture expert? A bit jarring to have him just pop up like that, but I'm always happy to have the "val" mystery deepened, so no complaints from me. Very intrigued to see where this is going...especially given the visitors who arrive later in the story.

Although I do have to note that the Valdez name seems to be an anachronism. Valdés would be more period appropriate. The alternative spelling with a "Z" seems to be a more modern innovation that came about after Spaniards migrated to Central and South America and the Caribbean. (Although the name does suit him--like the oil tanker of the same name, he seems to be pretty slippery.)

I'm a bit confused by the depiction of the "long-buried foundation work." The concept itself is of course very intriguing (is this partial structure related to the peoples who built the Megalith Dance?). But I'm confused where this massive excavation site fits in relation to the castle construction we see in the double-page spread, as it doesn't appear to be visible in that shot. Also, that excavation looks pretty damned extensive. That had to have taken a LONG time to dig out, no?

Malcolm has always seemed a bit flakey, a good man but someone who doesn't always think things through too well (see: using the gargoyles to frighten Katharine in "Long Way to Morning"). We get some more of that characterization here. He's almost like an overeager child wanting his castle finished quickly, not caring where the old foundations came from as long as they benefit him, and having to be slowed down by Robert to ensure caution in the construction.

Minor nitpick, but the rookery entrance is depicted differently than on the show (square doorframe as opposed to round, and obviously missing the gargoyle head, which admittedly could have been added later).

There's very little of Hudson/Mentor in this issue but I enjoyed his one line. It's fun seeing him be a bit of a hardass.

More four-legged running. Always fun to see that.

It's nice to finally get some characterization for Desdemona in Dark Ages! I believe this is the first time she's had lines.

The solicitation said that Goliath is given an "important title" that makes Iago and Hyppolyta jealous, but we don't see that. He's just tasked with menial labor, and honestly I'm not entirely sure why Iago and Hyppolyta look jealous/angry. Also not sure what Hyppolyta's play is in helping Goliath with his work...I was a bit confused by all that.

I hope we see a bit more of Desdemona's journey toward warrior-priesthood in the next two issues. That page is really nice. I especially liked the contrast between the supportive Sacrifice saying "we" have much work to do and the condescending unhelpful Archmage saying "you" have much work to do.

Another example of Malcolm being a bit foolhardy: Robert, Valdez and Hudson are clearly a bit wary of these newly-arriving strangers (justifiably so), but Malcolm is immediately welcoming and just excited to see a show. He really is kind of a big kid (which I suppose is appropriate to his age...despite appearing older, he's only 17 here, right?).

"Light-Bringers." Excellent. Interesting choice of words when the "Player King" says that Fleur will "forever" be his queen.

Benvolio and Malvolio. Nice use of two contrastingly-named Shakespeare characters from different plays (with the classic comedy/tragedy masks). I'm not catching the reference on Mack Kemp, if there is one. The name sounds oddly modern (my first associations were the late U.S. politician Jack Kemp, and Mack Heath from Threepenny Opera).

And Shahrizad! The most obvious "secret" in Gargoyles history finally inches into full canon! (More or less...there's still enough wiggle room for Greg to pull some sort of twist, but it seems pretty unlikely.) BTW, she looks great here. Some lovely expressions from Mr. Moss on both Shahrizad and our enigmatically charming Player King.

"Believably Spanish." Heh heh. Nice dig, especially coming from an actor.

I could have done without the "Broadway is obsessed with food" jokes. I guess the idea is to emphasize how much the present-day Broadway has grown from his initial somewhat one-note portrayal, but I didn't really need the reminder. Drew Moss's design for young Broadway is extra adorable, though.

Hmmm. It's interesting to learn that Magus presumably came from peasant stock, given how stuck-up he is at the beginning of the TV series. I wonder if we'll learn his name (which Alesand pointedly forgot in the text piece in issue 1).

Nicolas's dialogue upon discovering Alesand with the gargoyles was a bit too...I don't know...modern-feeling for my taste? Beginning a sentence with "So," the use of "Yeah" as a standalone sentence, "Right, right." Felt too overtly comedic and--yeah, modern is the best word I can summon.

Brother Valdez and the Player Queen immediately take a strong dislike to each other. :) Like Ed, I'm curious about the significance of the "I make my own stories" line.

Matt > Where are you seeing Schnozz? I feel like I'm missing something. The only other young gargoyle I see at the fire has a snubby little nose, very different from Schnozz. Which confuses me. Now that we know you were correct about Alesand's names for the gargoyles (nice work!), I don't see the pointy-beaked gargoyle she mentioned in issue 1.

Broadway and Brooklyn's smiling poses when they turn to stone are adorable. And Antiope is extra adorable, waving goodbye to Alesand. Lex is is trying to look scary, so for the sake of his dignity, I'll refrain from calling him adorable.

I'm a bit surprised that Alesand is naming the gargs before she's learned to read. She says that "Alexander" taught her, and she's just met him. I wonder how she's so knowledgeable of history. We know Robbie isn't really the book-reading type, and it's not really the sort of knowledge a tenth-century peasant would have access to, so I wonder who taught her?

Like Ed, I'm intrigued by the "Dream" title for the next issue. A coincidence? A tongue-in-cheek allusion to the other planned storyline?

Just a totally arbitrary observation: For the first time, the digital edition includes the "Next Issue..." advertisement, but now drops the full-page depictions of the variant covers.

In the text story, I love the beat of Robert shushing Alesand, too humble to want public attention for his own place in history. The guy obviously made some terrible choices, but he's got such a decent core. One the great, tragic, complex characters in all of Gargoyles, and I always love spending more time with him.

And of course, I can't help wonder what becomes of Alesand, and if perhaps her fate is part of the reason Robbie sours on humanity and considers them not his kind.

Likewise, Mary, although afraid of the gargoyles here, seems OK with sitting around a fire with them (albeit on the opposite side). I wonder what ultimately sours her on them.

Another all-around solid (albeit dragon-free) issue with some great character work. Looking forward to the concluding two issues (although I don't want it to end).
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 3:10:00 pm EDT from 24.46.160.98

Ed> [SPOILER] Sacrifice is indeed one generation older than Desdemona, so "little sister" is appropriate. And we have seen a beast and dog meet before: Bronx and Gilly in "Masque". [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 11:39:59 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Good morning! I hope everyone had a great, GREAT Halloween!

Got my thoughts on Dark Ages 4. Have not talked to anyone about it except a tiny bit with Bishansky and Phoen, but my thoughts are pretty much my own.

[SPOILER] - I like these little phrases we are getting at the beginning. They feel like snippets of gargoyle culture. And you know I love that stuff.

- This really becomes an Alesand focused story and we get to know her a lot better. She's a pretty brave and adventurous and and curious and open-minded girl, especially compared to her peers. And her relationship with the newly promoted Captain is sweet. I wonder what happened to her. Did she survive until 994 (or beyond?). I feel like we may have a long wait to find out.

- Castle Wyvern! Or at least the beginnings of it. Very fun to see the bones being built here. Crazy to think this will one day be the home of the Xanatos family. I keep thinking about the secret passage Demona used in City Of Stone. Surely that must've been installed during construction, perhaps by the gargoyles during one of their overnight shifts. Brother Valdez (another Val!), has discovered some ruins. An ancient foundation. And we don't know who (or what) built them: some other humans? the gargoyles? No clue, but they sure are helpful in building a castle in record time, as are the gargoyles. It's neat to see Goliath (among others) physically building the castle. Gives more weight to him calling it "my castle" all these years. He helped build it and takes some ownership.

- I love the shot of Alesand and Hyppolyta. Not sure why. Something about the frozen ferocity of the latter contrasting with the small innocence of the former. Just a neat shot.

- The moment Alesand hears of the eggs, she investigates the rookery. Always love seeing it and the eggs. Can't help wondering if the eggs she places her hands on might be those of Bronx or True or Kermit. Next she finds the sleeping Trio (plus friend plus Chaw). Chaw seems to hang with the young ones (both here and in Demona's Cell) much like Bronx and Fu-Dog did with Gnash more recently. I feel like she's babysitting them a bit. Her eyes stop glowing red a couple times as they did last issue, but at least some of the time they are correctly glowing. The gargoyles wake and quickly befriend Alesand. Love this. Her relationship with the Clan and her dad certainly helps unite him closer with the gargoyles as well, I'm sure.

- Love that Mentor is ready to end this chaos (the building of the castle). Home renovation is never fun. I like seeing Chomp (and another beast) dragging a boulder. Goliath and Othello gotta say bye to their girlfriends (who have other things to do). They really feel like teenagers here. Ha. And Iago and Hyppolyta watch on angrily. We know why Iago is angry. Jealousy. Is Hyppolyta jealous of someone as well? Or just angry that the sister who followed her is now following Goliath more instead. Might be a bit of both. But she joins him in the work (and questions his strength a bit). Loving the dynamics of this generation for sure.

- Meanwhile, I love the contrast between Desdemona beginning to learn to be a priestess (from Sacrifice, so cool!) while Demona begins to learn magic (gotta learn to read first!). Love that Sacrifice calls Des "little sister". And the Archmage is interesting here. I have to wonder what is in it for him to teach Demona anything. I guess he's making a servant out of her. Fun to see these first steps for both of these gargoyles given what lies ahead in the main comic (Commitment Ceremony and Quest respectively).

- And the troupe first mentioned in the first issue text arrives! I did not expect that. It feels fairly obvious that we've seen some of these folks before. Light Bringers indeed. I like that their leader appreciates seeing humans and gargoyles living together harmoniously. Makes me think he has seen such a thing before. The mighty General Bones gave a me a smile mostly because he looks exactly like the dog I had during the late 90s. He was a cairn terrier named Gus (descended from the dog that played Toto in Wizard of Oz). That cairn connection, the multiple Wizard of Oz quotes, and the general pet vibe of Hound of Ulster always makes me think of my old dog (and explains my choice of avatar in the Room). Now General Bones makes me think of him too.

- And of course the lovely Shahrizad. Pretty much no doubt on her identity now. And Valdez and the "King" question each other. "believably spanish", huh. All of that is very interesting.

- Alesand befriends the young gargoyles. They're all so cute. Broadway is just hungry, ha. Then Alesand's human peers arrive. Shocked to see her hanging with some gargoyles. Clearly, they don't think an alliance means friendship. When these kids were introduced in the text in The Reach, I was very sure that Mary was indeed Mary. And the white hair kid is the young Magus. Now I'm even more sure. But the older blond kid I had no idea about. Seeing him now, the resemblance to a young Tom is uncanny. I think he's Tom's father! Anyway, the kids all gather around the storyteller as we have heard before. It is telling that the humans sit on one side of the fire with the notable exception of Robbie and Alesand. And also there is Schnozz! I was hoping he'd turn up since he is the only other rookery sib to the trio that we've met before, but not seen. I also found Iago's presence interesting. Others are there, but not so close to the action. Why is he so interested? (Side note: I mentioned to Bishansky and Phoen this morning that if someone told me a year ago that we'd be seeing Schnozz talking to Shari I would've said they were nuts, but here we are!). Brooklyn laments that they have to wait til tomorrow to hear more of the story. I hear ya, but try waiting a month! The gargoyles turn to stone and Alesand names them exactly as I thought they would be named since The Reach! A little smug that I got this prediction right. Gotta wonder how these names never stuck as the Trio grew up. Maybe Alesand never used them directly or something. Or maybe she wasn't around that long? New besties Alesand and Antiope don't appear in 994, so who knows? And she dreams of flying among them. Certainly associating more with the gargoyles than the humans, as her father will one day.

- Something minor that I thought to mention was the appearance of the big male gargoyle with blue skin, black hair, and two pairs of horns. He has shown up in most of the issues so far. I'm beginning to think we need to make a wiki entry for him. He looks like he might be Antiope's biological father. I'm curious about him.

- Not much to say about the text entry this time since we've seen a lot of it before, but I'm glad to canonize the Loch Ness and Scone Clans. I'm intrigued as Malcolm and Robbie are on how Shari knows their story so well. I'm also fairly certain that Greg W used the word "penis" in the original OUATTWTB, but here says "male child" instead (to the relief of the Disney S&P and all of Shari's audience I'm sure.

- A really fun story. No big action scenes, just a lot of character stuff which I love. Can't wait for more! [/SPOILER]

That's my ramble, where's yours?
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 11:11:16 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Don't have too much time to dwell on this one this morning but...

DARK AGES #4

[SPOILER] So the first surprise is that the dragon is nowhere even hinted. I have mixed feelings as I love the teases being misdirects and the story itself was great but this was one aspect of the story I was actually really keen to see - assuming the wyvern of the hill isn't either metaphorical or linked into the dream, both of which seem possible now. Rather curious too that the next issue is titled "The Dream" even though Greg has said this isn't the dream story he once planned. All told, he's doing his best to make us zig where we expect to zag which I certainly appreciate.

This issue is a nice character piece and a striking change of tone. Alesand is front and centre now and her relationship with the 'quartet' is a lot of fun. We see small glimpses of Hyppolyta and Iago and a small Demona/Archmage scene that confirms he taught her to read. I really liked Desdemona. I've not seen any gargoyle being called "little sister" - does this mean that Desdemona's tutor is in the previous rookery? Of course, so were Goliath and the Trio...

We also see a few other human children. One seems likely to be Tom's father. Another could be Mary. There's also another gargoyle from the Trio-rookery who has similar features to Hyppolyta. I don't think the maths works for this to be a bio-sibling of Verity so it must be a more distant relation. We also get a fun moment with Chaw meeting a dog - can't believe we haven't had a beast/dog meeting before.

It really emphasises why Hudson and Goliath were so connected to the castle when it was not just their home but something they built largely themselves.

Valdez - now we have a 'Val' from a different country entirely! The mystery only deepens. The "Light Bringers" is a great name but it's ambiguous as to whether Valdez's suspicion was theological or a recognition of the Illuminati - and ambiguous even whether he knows Fleur. The "I make my own stories" line I feel is going to be an important part of the puzzle. Could we be about to solve at least part of this mystery after all these years before "Alliance" ends? I don't expect so but it would be cool.

It's really nice to ground the text stories in the events of the main narrative.

Speaking of the text stories, the story continues apace and is enjoyable, with a confirmation that Shari is uncannily accurate - another mystery deepening. I do think the original had a nice rhythm of the "It doesn't get any better than this"/"It doesn't get any worse than this" but that won't matter ultimately when the text stories are read in sequence. (I wonder if the Trio or even Coldsteel will ever connect Shari from the Labyrinth and Shahrizad the player.)

Another great issue. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Nov 1, 2023 1:09:16 am EDT from 86.149.55.246

Happy Halloween, everyone!

I saw a preview of "Dark Ages #4", the opening pages. We see [SPOILER] work beginning on the building of Castle Wyvern, with mentions of a mysterious earlier ruin and some discussion among the humans about its significance; no answers, just questions. We also get a new character, a Spanish monk named Brother Valdez, who's helping with the construction - apparently as a sort of master builder like James of Saint George. [/SPOILER]

And thanks for the review of "Dark Ages #3", Blaise.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 31, 2023 8:58:30 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

****Blaise appears in the room in a flash of orange fire.****
HAPPY HALLOWEEN! I'll be spending my Halloween night chowing on candy and watching appropriately themed entertainment, but for now: comments!

CRAIG> Yeah, I feel like that was meant to be Robbie's line, too, but this time there wasn't as clear a visual cue for me to latch onto like the previous Kenneth/Malcolm panel (i.e., both Robbie and Random Soldier's mouths looked shut). So I just contented myself with a silly comment. Still, one hopes mistakes like these may be corrected in the trade collection.

TODD JENSEN> OOOOooo, "The Murder of Gonzago." Maybe. I like that idea.

THE OATH> The first page line this time is “All is one with the wind.” For those of us who read Greg Weisman’s description of the Wind Ceremony at Ask Greg way back when, we know what will happen in this issue.

I love the way the top two panels and the bottom two panels are the same “camera angles” (for lack of a better term), the only differences being the time of day/night, and Lefty. He seems to have tracked Culen to a mountain stronghold, and returns to report its location to Mentor and the rest. They even repeat the point-to-head gesture. Of course, Angel has a much worse awakening, chained in said stronghold. Love the detail of her stone skin on the floor there.
After Lefty leads everyone to the stronghold, it looks like Mentor instructs the Archmage to zap the wooden stables alongside it. He even does the point-to-head gesture and smiles at the Archmage...who returns both the gesture and the smile. Seriously, it is rather unnerving to see an expression that...friendly on the Archmage’s face. Lord knows we never saw anything like it during his actions on the show. For me, this actually gives an air of tragedy to the spellcaster: he really could have been a good comrade and advisor but for his ambition and pride. Still, for the moment, he helps our heroes.
(And count me as another who winces at seeing an ancient book in a pouring downpour like that. We know it turns out fine, but still....)

Inside, because he hasn’t yet done enough to show himself as an odious @$$hole who deserves what’s coming to him, Culen taunts Angel about her tiara, and takes it away while musing he’ll have it melted down to make a rattle for his baby, Constantine (amazing to see him as a sleeping babe). Culen (or rather, Greg through him) taunts the audience, too, as we *still* don’t get an origin for the tiara. Not yet anyway. But Menteth runs in to say that the stables are on fire, but they think it’s the storm and don’t yet realize they're under attack. Culen doesn’t seem too worried, though, until the Archmage sends two larger lightning bolts on the castle (love the artwork here!) and causes more fires, enough to spread smoke even to Angel, the one they’re trying to save.

Mentor calls for Goliath to go with him (apparently, he’s “sufficiently motivated”), but absolutely shuts down Hyppolyta when she tries to come along. Surprisingly enough, she listens this time (though she’s not happy). But both Kenneth and Lefty feel it would be better to bring the whole force down on the stronghold. Mentor holds to just himself and Goliath, though. I find myself puzzling out the reasons for this: it’s possible he knows the fire and smoke in the place could cause confusion and accidental casualties among their own if they bring in too many. It could also be to limit any possible losses that could occur due to smoke/fire/collapsing buildings. Of course, it could also be that he just wants to be absolutely sure no one kills Culen but him. Whatever the reason(s), it’s just Mentor and Goliath gliding into the inferno.

We finally get our title page here--almost half-way through the issue. Just a sort of, “Huh...” observation on my part.

Culen and Mentath are dispatched (most likely very brutally in the former’s case) very quickly. I’ve seen some express surprise at how quickly it happened, and some that feel this is a bit anticlimactic...and I can understand that. But I’m okay with it for a couple of reasons:
1) Taking out Culen for the Brothers was always only a beginning of an alliance and (as we will see) not the full, lasting alliance that is to come.
2) Culen was never as great as he thought he was--not a great king, not a great strategist, not a great fighter, etc.. Even his last-ditch plan (take a hostage and hope they won’t try to rescue/retaliate) blew up in his face (pretty much literally). For me, it is fitting that he goes out like a chump, cowering before an enraged father.
I suppose now’s as good a time as any to mention the specific versions of Culen’s death that Greg drew from (there are multiple), in which a someone known as “Rhydderch” killed Culen because the latter had abducted the former’s daughter. With how Greg plumbs history for material in “Gargoyles” (and makes use of how sketchy the details can sometimes be), this is a fun and fitting bit.

However, the “big hero” moment belongs to Goliath who (after bouncing Menteth across the room like a ball) moves to free Angel before they succumb to the smoke and manages to summon Herculean strength to do so. And a little ingenuity, too, actually: when he can’t break the chains themselves, he instead breaks the stone they’re moored to.

Outside, the rest of their army have gotten closer to the burning stronghold and see three figures emerge..or rather four, as Mentor is carrying the baby Constantine. He hands the child over to Kenneth and both are on the same page that Constantine is innocent of Culen’s crimes. “May the sins of his father never fall upon his head.” It is always sad when doing something good and right (saving a baby and bearing them none of the ill will you held their parent) can result in something like...well, like what Constantine ultimately becomes.

Mentor returns Angel’s tiara, and Angel breaks down, saying she will never disobey her father again. A touching moment rendered bittersweet by our knowledge of what she and their relationship will become in the future. And there’s Hyppolyta in the background looking shocked and maybe dismayed. Meanwhile, Robbie opines that dying by fire is a horrible way to go, and Goliath drops this wonderful gem: “Not a man within perished by the flame.” While the reality of killing everyone in that place before it went up in flames may be called into question, the basic meaning that they killed anyone they saw in there on their way in and out is all too clear and (if I may indulge in my inner barbarian) a nice touch.

Fast forward to “The Next Night” as we see parallel events: Kenneth’s coronation on the right, and Robbie eschewing it to join the gargoyles for something else on the left, because “respect must be paid” to those who made victory possible. Here we finally meet Robbie’s daughter, Alesand, on panel (cute as a button). We also see Malcolm officially named Prince of Wyvern and Kenneth swearing to raise Constantine alongside his own son and nephew. Okay, Kenneth seems like a decent enough guy from what we’ve seen...how the hell did Constantine turn out the way he did? Did Kenneth really drop the ball that badly? And then there’s Maol Chalvim, who would overthrow his own cousin as king after a few years. I’m sure there are stories there, but for now...like I said: it’s sad.

And speaking of sad: it is time for the Wind Ceremony. We see Verity atop an unlit pyre along with two other gargoyles, older ones. A long time ago on Ask Greg, Greg mentioned that he always felt that, due to their usually violent lives, Hudson was a “marvelous exception” for living to be as old as he was, but it seems as if at least a couple others made it close. And hey, some more characterization for Sacrifice: looks like she is a spiritual leader for the clan, as she is the one leading the Wind Ceremony. I had thought I saw her next to Verity in one of the crowd shots in “The Reach” so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were “co-workers” on that sort of thing. If the preview blurbs are at all accurate, we may be learning more about this thanks to Desdemona.
As for the rest of the ceremony...there’s not much else to say. I find it touching and beautiful, and I love the shot of them all gliding through the ashes on the wind.

Time skip to a few nights later, and we have another parallel set of panels, this time a conversation between Mentor and Malcolm on the left and the Archmage and Angel on the right (huh, I didn’t even think of the alliteration there until I wrote it down just now).
*On the Malcolm/Mentor side, what struck me on my second read was the look on Mentor's face in the middle panel: it almost looks worried as Malcolm is talking about the “strategic importance” of Wyvern. It wouldn’t surprise me if he was already thinking about how the humans are going to try to kick them out of here. Instead, though, Malcolm reiterates that he wants to work together with the gargoyles, strengthen the alliance and keep it going. Mentor likes that, and feels Verity would have approved, so he accepts.
*Meanwhile, the Archmage is surprisingly tender and kindly-faced when talking with Angel about how awful being Culen’s prisoner was, and how she must have felt “powerless.” But his eye at the bottom of the page, where he mentions he has petitioned to become Malcolm’s primary advisor...that shows (to me, anyway) that this is all calculated. He wants Angel to be his apprentice (for whatever reason) and promises her that she will “never feel powerless again.” I remember some reviews and posts in other areas saying that Angel’s capture by Culen would be another “reason Demona hates humans” moment (a "new starting point" for it, even), but I think this right here is the true result of it. She may not have great love for humans, but she doesn’t have the hate she will develop yet. Instead, what happened with Culen is what planted the seed of her desire for power...and why she wants it so badly. Of course, what seems to ultimately sell her on this is seeing Mentor (still a father figure to her) clasping hands with Malcolm.

Malcolm starts a “Can you picture it” speech about how awesome the new place will look but pauses because he *needs* to call Mentor some name or other (love the eyeroll Mentor gives here). And Malcolm, figuring that since the gargoyle “acted as a mentor to the king and I throughout the battle and beyond” (I guess he did, sure) can be called “Mentor.” I guess this is as good a way as any to get that name in the text. Personally, I would have loved it if it rose out of the gargoyles themselves viewing him as a mentor and the humans adopting that, but this works, too. And I love how the top and bottom panels are almost exactly the same except for the dialogue, where Malcolm starts his speech again as if there were no interruptions.

And Malcolm goes on about how awesome the castle and alliance will be, while *something* green opens one large, yellow, slit-pupiled eye. [anticipation rising..]

Back to the prose story, with Shari beginning again after the players have performed (no hints as to what the play was about this time, just that it was a comedy). Interesting bit of playfulness at the end where Robbie (who knows how it goes) asks “Then whatever happened next?” and Shari wags a finger at his cheek saying “That is a story for another night..”

And I’m caught up with “Dark Ages” but not for long. LOOKING FORWARD TO WEDNESDAY!

Enjoy Halloween everyone! See you for thoughts on "The Promise" later this week!
****Blaise does a Dracula and turns into a bat to fly out of the room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Tue, Oct 31, 2023 12:06:16 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

I wonder if the "Italian tale of betrayal" might be "The Murder of Gonzago", the "play within a play" that Hamlet used to make sure of his uncle's guilt. It was about a murder by a close relative, which would definitely count as betrayal, and the names in the play (Gonzago, Bianca, Lucianus) are Italian - or at least, look it, not to mention that Hamlet described it as "writ in choice Italian". Which reminds me of my speculation here a couple of weeks ago that the Players at Wyvern might be the same who showed up at Elsinore. ("Hamlet" would match the time-period - latter half of the tenth century; Denmark is exacting tribute from England (Claudius's ostensible reason for sending Hamlet there is to demand England resume paying it), presumably the Danegeld, and Claudius expects the King of England to put Hamlet to death rather than face Denmark's wrath - "Since yet thy cicatrice looks raw and red/ After the Danish sword, and thy free awe/ Pays homage to us".)

Even if my theory is incorrect, there's still a definite "Hamlet" allusion in the Players scene in #2; the Player telling the story says about Indulf's dilemma about Prince Malcolm and his mother (continue holding them prisoner and he'll seem like a tyrant; free them, and he loses his best defense against Duff and Kenneth), "ay, there was the rub".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 8:11:46 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Since Blaise brought it up last week and it may be relevant soon. Ever since The Reach, this has been my thoughts and I stand by it:

Alexander = Lexington
Charlemagne = Broadway
Caesar = Brooklyn
Antiope = Trio's rookery sister
Long-beaked gargoyle = Schnozz

Looking forward to DA#4! Not sure how much truth there is to the solicitation as G#10 sowed us that those can't really be trusted (which is fine!). But assuming it is vaguely correct, there is a lot to look forward to: Desdemona and gargoyle culture stuff, more from the young Trio (Quartet?), and sibling dynamics among Goliath's generation. All fun stuff.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 10:26:27 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

Thanks for the latest review, Blaise.

The new issue of "Dark Ages" is just two days away. I'm looking forward to (assuming that the solicitation is accurate) finding out more about "Antiope" (I'm assuming that's whom the name "belongs" to) and [SPOILER] the dragon [/SPOILER].
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 8:49:42 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Re: Tobe's voice. Phil LaMarr is obviously a good choice (and has the advantage over Roscoe Lee Browne of being alive). Khary Payton's also a good choice.

One actor I really like, who might bring a new sound to the... "Weisman zeitgeist" (I suppose) is Gary Anthony Williams. Does a lot of voice over, has a nice deep baritone voice that'd be a nice match for Keith David. Or even Michael Leon-Wooley (who briefly voiced Darkseid in Young Justice), another deep baritone.

(Also apropos of nothing, he's got a great singing voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyRZNuEpO8w)

Katana, (I'm not sure if this needs a spoiler, but I'll put the tags on anyway) [SPOILER] they have her speaking Japanese sometimes in the comic (or using honorifics anyway) [/SPOILER] so I'd probably want them to get someone authentically Japanese. Otherwise I'd say Kelly Hu is a really good choice. Maybe Dee Dee Magno Hall.

All the actual Japanese actresses I know are from Japan and don't speak English.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 6:00:24 am EDT from 70.27.161.86

Blaise >

I speculated that the random soldier saying "Can't let Malcolm have all the fun" was a lettering error, and that the line should have been attributed to Robbert, who is next to him. Similar to what you noted with the Kenneth/Malcolm lettering confusion in your review of issue 1. I might be wrong on that, but it feels like things are getting a bit confused with so many brown-haired caucasian dudes, and the line feels more appropriate to Robert than a rando.

The change in Disney censorship re: violence is interesting to me, when compared to the SLG issues. The older I get as I continue to follow various Disney properties, the more I realize how much the individual whims of those who happen to be in charge of a particular department come into play. (Just in the past couple of years, Carl Barks reprints by Fantagraphics have been censored for racism, then those same changes were uncensored in second printings of the same volumes a few months later while different things were censored that had been left intact in the first printings, then subsequent volumes have been further censored, all with some very arbitrary standards as to what is acceptable and what isn't seeming to vary by the month the book is released.) There's this perception that Disney is this unified corporation with strong decisive leadership that permeates the organization, but I get the sense more and more that the company has gotten so huge that there are a lot of middle managers frankly, to put it bluntly, trying to cover their asses. In the SLG run, we of course had the rather shocking cover to issue 5 with Thailog having stabbed Goliath. We also got the issue 11 medieval battle, where Demona casually snaps a soldier's neck with a big "KRAK." It seems that the current Disney comics regime is much more conservative and the battles are much tamer. Which I'm fine with, I don't think it has hurt the stories. Just an interesting thing to note.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 2:22:45 am EDT from 24.46.162.126

****Blaise walks into the room in a robe and brushing his teeth.****
Making a post before bed.
Oh, and FIRST!!

A new week, and the next "Dark Ages" ramble from me:
THE DRAW> I didn’t mention the opening line on page one last time. That one was “Our kind have no names” and this one is “We let no one go.” Both seem, at least initially, to be referencing Gargoyle culture, and make for appetite-whetting morsels of what may be found inside. Even this one seems to echo Hudson’s “Gargoyles don’t leave their warriors behind” in “Long Way to Morning” or Brooklyn’s similar line in “Render unto Caesar.” Although, the ultimate usage of it in this issue is not what might be expected.

Quick snapshots of several faces (looks like even Kenneth was taken aback by the gargoyles’ entry into battle) and Goliath’s whispered wish that Angel be safe, which carries over to the next two page spread of the gargoyles swooping down onto the battlefield.

Love the reversed dive-bombing panels between Mentor and Lefty (with the latter seeming to really enjoy this). I don’t know who the random soldier saying “Can’t let Malcolm have all the fun” might be, but it’s nice to know the prince is on a first name basis with his soldiers.

Speaking of Malcolm, he is (in his own words) off to a wonderful start: on the ground and fending off the attacks of an enemy soldier.

Apparently, having to face surprise gargoyles does little for morale on Culen’s side, as one of his men, Cawdor by name (a Shakespeare reference? How unexpected), voices his displeasure. You can tell Cawdor’s important because he’s not wearing a face concealing helmet (not a criticism, just to be clear, this is just one of those Hollywood tropes that amuses me to no end). Well, it turns out Culen has an ace of his own named Valois, a mage who uses a spear--or rather, spearhead--as his focus. Those of us who have seen the radio play “Religious Studies 101: A Handful of Thorns” may have already drawn the conclusion that this is most likely the Spear of Destiny--and a translation of the spell he’s using confirms it. It’s powerful enough to make Valois a Water-Bender as he uses it to create three giant hands of water to grab two gargoyles (one of them Sacrifice) and a beast (that looks like it took out the soldier threatening Malcolm). However, it doesn’t seem to be as powerful as the Grimorum Arcanorum, which the Archmage uses to zap the spear with lightning, breaking both it (but not the spearhead) and freeing the trapped gargoyles.
Three thoughts throughout all of this:
1) Valois bears a resemblance to Brother Valmont, though that could just be the bald head...and a name that has “val” in it...both aspects shared with Duval of the Illuminati. Hmmm....
2) It seems the Archmage and Valois are aware of each other, and were even anticipating that the other would be involved in the battle. There may be some lore there.
3) The soldier who acts as messenger to Valois is called Menteth (another Shakespeare reference), and...okay, it’s probably just the haircut (how it looks like a bowl cut from the front), but I’m put in mind of Moe Howard of the Three Stooges. Or maybe Quentin Beck from Spider-Man. None of the Beatles, though. Sorry, just a silly tangent.

Up on the cliff, Othello notes that the battle seems to be going well for them, but Iago just has to be a killjoy and mention that they can’t see their “wayward sisters.” Well, we can see them, and they seem to be enjoying themselves: Hyppolyta seeing Hudson’s orders as only denying them sharing in the “triumph” and Angel wondering why they are the only two of their siblings who have joined the battle (or, as I like to look at it, disobeyed direct orders!). You can tell that these two are still teenagers and are still suffering from the “immortality syndrome” that tends to crop up at that time of life. And for me, personally, Hyppolyta is just the worst: she views those who did not join them (i.e. defy sensible orders) as “sheep”--maybe it's just my experiences over the last few years, but I’ve heard that term used many times to refer to people whom the speaker looks down on, and I’ve found I’ve never been a fan of the speaker who is doing so. At any rate, Hyppolyta insults Goliath, causing Angel to round on her and, in turn, Hyppolyta to get distracted while chiding Angel for being distracted (love the double head-smash panel, BTW). This allows a soldier to almost get the drop on her, but Verity comes to the rescue!...and then gets killed for her trouble.

Verity’s death: yeah, we knew this was coming, but man this happened sooner than I would have thought. And there’s a certain Shakespearean quality to this, particularly in the speech of her killer (who we will see is Cawdor). There’s also the quality that, in a pitched battle, he had enough time to get all that out before he stabbed her (hey, talking’s a free action in D&D!). Of course, Verity *literally* had her hands full at the time and he stabbed her from behind (jerk). And the death itself, while nothing explicit can be shown, is properly impactful. If there was a lot of talk before the moment, there is almost none after, save for Mentor's exclamations and whispers. Verity’s collapse is almost staged like ballet, and the faces of those affected are each given a panel to show their reactions (where’s your “triumph” now, Hyppolyta?!), even including Cawdor’s villainous satisfaction.

Of course, Mentor managed to see all this and swoops down to cradle Verity’s body in grief. Cawdor tries to take advantage of this to kill Mentor from behind, but while Angel cries out a warning, I don’t think Mentor was at all unaware of the enemy that killed his love. Mentor’s killing of Cawdor is a fascinating contrast from what we were able to see in the SLG comics. There, I'm pretty sure we saw Demona casually kill at least a couple of people during the Battle of Rathveramoen, but they were unnamed extras. Here, we’re dealing with one named character killing another (and under stricter Disney scrutiny), so again we cannot see anything explicit, but it’s pretty obvious that Mentor broke Cawdor’s sword hand before slashing some vital part of his body in the head region (my money’s on his throat). Thankfully for the censors, Cawdor falls in such a way as to hide all the blood. Mentor then turns his rage back towards the battle and leads Hyppolyta, Angel, Chomp, Chaw, Lefty, Second and Sacrifice in an advance (hey, these are all “named” gargoyles and I’m gonna name them!).

Menteth shows up to report to Culen that Cawdor is dead (along with some guy we apparently never met named Angus) and that Kenneth has “lost no thanes” (forget about the rank and file soldiers, though). Also, Valois has apparently pulled a “Brave Sir Robin” and scarpered (well, when a spellcaster loses their spell focus they just become a sitting duck). We hear that Verity (whom Menteth refers to as one of the gargoyles’ leaders--wonder how they figured that) was not the only gargoyle to die, but they've given more than they got and Culen ultimately decides to retreat and live to fight another day. But in order to do that since they're pretty much trapped on the beach he needs leverage, and to get it he seems to do something very gutsy and runs right towards the battle.

Or maybe just to the edges of the battle, where Angel is trying to pull a double head-smash like her sister did earlier and Lefty calls out that she’s pulling too far away from their forces. Angel tries to pull the “but my sister is even further away” excuse but Lefty just shuts that down, stating that Hyppolyta is a berserker and Angel’s strengths are different. This is some fascinating character bits for me: Hyppolyta is a blood knight who flourishes in battle (which somewhat explains her attitude), while Angel benefits from more caution. I’m just reminded that, in the future, Demona’s greatest failures tend to come because some other feeling (rage, vengeance, fear, pride etc.) outstrips her prudent caution.

Of course, being a dumb teenager, Angel won’t hear Lefty’s warnings, and starts to go on about how she’s a “gargoyle of unknown depths” before she gets conked on the noggin by Culen and used as the aforementioned leverage. Apparently, the earlier tragedy wasn’t enough to impress upon her the dangers of being distracted on the battlefield. Maybe this will get it through her skull (sorry!).

A halt is called, but Mentor makes it very clear that this is not a good idea on Culen’s part. And Goliath has reached a breaking point and ground slams right in front of Culen in a rage. Mentor is able to hold him back, though. Lot of neat bits here: Mentor referring to Angel as his daughter (leading Culen to think she’s his daughter in the “human” sense of the term), Goliath calling Culen a “monster” and Culen being darkly amused at this. And then there's Culen referring to Mentor as the “Rhydderch” of the clan. I heard Greg Weisman talk about this on Voices From the Eyrie, and that it ties into some of the history around Culen. I looked it up and it is definitely fascinating how Greg is mining history for more inspiration. Love that.

Kenneth and the Archmage balk at Mentor calling an end to the battle to spare Angel (with the Archmage being a particular jerk about it, but what else is new?), but Mentor and Lefty apparently have secret signals they’re able to use right in front of Culen with no one the wiser. In “The Price” Goliath called Hudson, “the greatest warrior I have ever known,” and things like this really help to show why Goliath holds his prowess in such esteem. It's not just about being a good fighter....
Kenneth is still prepared to fight on this, but Malcolm points out that they all have sworn oaths and that foreswearing these oaths would be a bad first act for a king. So, Kenneth agrees to let Culen go with his hostage. Culen is especially odious when he says that “The sons of Maol Chalvim were always reasonable men..it’s why they always fail.” I look forward to him learning just how boned he is.

Kenneth and Goliath are both disbelieving that Culen and Angel were let go, but Mentor comes back with the line from the beginning: “We let no one go.” And he swears to bring the conflict to an end by this time the next night.

Back to the prose section and WOW is the text clearer. Different font and bigger, too, I think. I wonder what the “Italian story of betrayal” used for the play might be, but for now we return to Shari’s retelling of “Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers.” I love the bit about Robbie having a “face like a gargoyle” (as opposed to “like a bulldog” as in the story as written on Ask Greg) and “Charlemagne’s” reaction to that--and everyone’s reaction to that reaction. This also confirms that our scribe is definitely Robbie’s daughter. And we get more detail of the kinds of pranks Malcolm and Robbie pulled on Indulf and Culen: loved the “breached his breaches” bit.

Good issue. Sad we lost Verity as soon as we did, but for what little time we had her she did make an impression.

OK, I'll try to post my thoughts on issue 3 tomorrow night (Monday night for me), so I'm caught up in time for the new issue this week!
****Blaise continues on his way, walking through a wall as if it (or he) were intangible.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Mon, Oct 30, 2023 1:07:35 am EDT from 45.48.54.221

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