A happy New Year's Eve everyone!
And no, I'm not just popping in for one last post for 2023.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Dec 31, 2023 10:09:16 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Happy New Year's Eve, everyone! Or Happy Hogmanay, given the strong Scottish element in "Gargoyles".

Ring out, wild bells, to the wild sky,
The flying cloud, the frosty light;
The year is dying in the night;
Ring out, wild bells, and let him die.

Ring out the old, ring in the new,
Ring, happy bells, across the snow;
The year is going, let him go;
Ring out the false, ring in the true.

Ring out the grief that saps the mind,
For those that here we see no more;
Ring out the feud of rich and poor,
Ring in redress to all mankind.

Ring out a slowly dying cause,
And ancient forms of party strife;
Ring in the nobler modes of life,
With sweeter manners, purer laws.

Ring out the want, the care, the sin,
The faithless coldness of the times;
Ring out, ring out thy mournful rhymes,
But ring the fuller minstrel in.

Ring out false pride in place and blood,
The civic slander and the spite;
Ring in the love of truth and right,
Ring in the common love of good.

Ring out old shapes of foul disease;
Ring out the narrowing lust of gold;
Ring out the thousand wars of old,
Ring in the thousand years of peace.

Ring in the valiant man and free,
The larger heart, the kindlier hand;
Ring out the darkness of the land,
Ring in the Christ that is to be.

From "In Memoriam", Alfred Lord Tennyson

(It occurred to me while writing this post that I ought to have chosen "Auld Lang Syne" for the "year's end" poem, to match the Scottish element of "Gargoyhles". I'll save that for next year - and Tennyson does have a connection of a sort to "Gargoyles", by writing a famous set of poems about one of the gargoyles' human allies.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Dec 31, 2023 7:54:41 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

Bishansky > Ah yes, that makes more sense. I knew that, and should have thought of that. In any event, my point stands that the number came from an artist and likely doesn't have significance (or perhaps it did to Mr. Atomura, but I'd guess even Greg isn't aware of it if so).

While I'm here, thanks to you and Jennifer (and Greg) for all your hard work and devotion on the podcast. One of many things in the Gargoyles fandom I'm grateful for over the past year, and I look forward to more in the coming year.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Dec 31, 2023 2:38:52 pm EST from 24.46.160.100

CRAIG> <<Maybe you know this, but Elisa's badge number is from the TV show. It was seen several times. I assume it was just a choice that a storyboard artist or someone put in, and then the show (and Greg) stayed consistent with it. But I could be wrong.>>

You are wrong, that is not how production on an animated series works. Every single prop is designed by a designated artist assigned to prop design. The storyboard artist didn't and wouldn't number it, or even design it. My educated guess is that Takeishi Atomura designed and numbered the badge... he worked at Walt Disney Television Japan which, during the first season, did a lot of the pre-production. The first time we see Elisa's badge, a good look at it, was Awakening Part Three and Takeishi Atomura is credited for Prop Design.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/828672479991824424/1191096389392941106/Elisas_Badge.jpg?ex=65a431f4&is=6591bcf4&hm=4076e4f178c1c680707a3631df2cf7543d4ba02a4f19598ec16b22ad754b29ba&
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sun, Dec 31, 2023 2:15:48 pm EST from 67.189.167.107

Sorry for the double post. Just want to wish everyone a pleasant and safe New Year's Eve! One good thing about the release of Gargoyles #11 being botched is that we'll be getting a second round of conversation around it this Wednesday, hopefully. I very much look forward to that, and to hearing the thoughts of those of you who weren't able to participate in the first round.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Dec 31, 2023 2:05:39 pm EST from 24.46.160.217

Blaise > As to Margot seemingly compartmentalizing the fact that she has seen gargoyles speak several times in the past, this feels very realistic to me. I know some people have expressed issues with this (not you, but others), but we have only to look to history to see many many figures who displayed extreme cognitive dissonance in their views toward other races. Nineteenth century politicians who advocated for abolition of slavery while owning (and even abusing) slaves, LBJ pushing the Civil Rights Act into law while expressing shockingly racist views in private (and public), authors like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle writing both beautifully progressive stories ("The Yellow Face") and crudely racist ones ("Three Gables") with seemingly no rhyme or reason depending on the day and the mood he was in. We won't even get into modern-day examples, but suffice it to say that humans are richly complex creatures, for better and sometimes for worse. And we LOVE having scapegoats for our fears and insecurities, even when we have to engage in an extreme degree of mental gymnastics in order to vilify those scapegoats.

It is rather odd that Dr. Vaughn is allowed as a witness at all. Just as a preliminary gatekeeping matter, it seems like his testimony would have been barred due to complete lack of relevance. But I can buy that the expedited nature of this hearing is so rushed that some of these matters weren't addressed beforehand the way they would normally be.

Maybe you know this, but Elisa's badge number is from the TV show. It was seen several times. I assume it was just a choice that a storyboard artist or someone put in, and then the show (and Greg) stayed consistent with it. But I could be wrong.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Dec 30, 2023 11:01:52 pm EST from 24.46.160.177

Thanks for the review, Blaise! A great "end-of-year" present for the room.

On Lexington's Internet name; I think it's a reference to how Margot assumed, in the Halloween party back in "Clan-Building", that Lexington's costume was based on the Tin Woodman, since Broadway and Angela were wearing "Wizard of Oz" costumes. (And which makes it feel all the more appropriate that he's making a "Wizard of Oz" allusion in his nickname for Margot in this issue.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 30, 2023 6:48:52 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

****A cheetah dashes into the Room and morphs into Blaise****
One more before the year is out!

SPOILERS FROM LEAKS AND SOLICITATIONS> Yeah, I didn't get the (apparently leaked) electronic copy of Issue 11 (I usually spend all my money on multiple variant covers of the physical issues...) so I can't comment on issue 11 until later next week. Likewise, since the solicitation for "Quest" issue 3 needs to be put in SPOILER tags, I've decided to avoid that, too. It will be a long wait before I go back and read those (hope I remember).


At any rate, I definitely wanted to get THIS done before the New Year begins, so...
YOUR WITNESS> And now we come to the REAL “Trial of Goliath!” Or “Hearing of Goliath” rather (yeah, just doesn’t sound as dramatic).

That distinction is actually front and center in the first few panels as Roebling explains the situation; there are no charges against Goliath, and there will be no jury for this proceeding. This is just to determine if A) Goliath is sentient, and B) if so, does he qualify for “human rights” under the law. Tobe makes the motion for the hearing to be held at night so Goliath can attend and “aid in his defense,” something which Margot (looking very insufferably smug, well-done expression Mr. Kambadais!) derides. She drops the smugness for outrage, however, playing up the idea that Goliath is a vicious, wild animal that will try to escape and is a threat to “life, limb and property.” She gets even more outraged at the idea of Goliath actually testifying and questions his competency to do so, something which Tobe points out is the whole point of the hearing, and that a hearing for “sentience” isn’t really all that different from one for competency. He even mentions to the judge that he could have easy grounds for an appeal if Roebling rules otherwise. Roebling allows the motion (I’m sure he was going to do so anyway [even before later revelations]), much to Margot’s displeasure (another great facial expression!). Once again, I wonder whether Margot just blocked out the gargoyles talking to her, or if she remembers and is *still* crusading to have them treated as dangerous animals--and realizes she just lost the battle to prove that by Goliath being allowed to attend and testify.

However, Roebling brings up safety concerns and, that afternoon, has “objective” [insert snorted laughter here] testimony on that front provided by Matt. Actually we get his full name now: Matthew Menachem Bluestone (nice trivia for us). He assures that “all necessary precautions will be taken” and has “no doubt” that Goliath will pose no danger to the court. Well...no lies detected!

The next motion is from Travis Mashall, of all people (and it turns out he’s not just an anchor and reporter, but the Managing Editor of W.V.R.N. News--good for him!). He requests that the proceedings be televised live (for the public’s benefit, of course--although with Travis, I can believe that’s true). Neither counsel has objections (though Tobe looks happier about it than Margot), so the Hearing date is set.

We now, 5 pages in, get this issue’s narrator: Lexington! However, it’s not normal narration, but instead Lex’s commenting on the proceedings to Amp. And apparently Lex uses the handle “Tinman” online...interesting. I wonder what drew him to that moniker. Anybody have thoughts on that?
At any rate, Lex brings up the “trial/hearing” thing again but calls it a “distinction without a difference” just for how important this court proceeding is not just for Goliath but for Gargoyles, period.

We get a look in the courtroom: there’s Owen and Capt Chavez, along with Matt and Morgan standing guard by Goliath, and Renqvist (somehow looking younger to me) sitting at the DA table. One thing I’ll bring up here is that I’m surprised we haven’t heard from Morgan so far in all of this. I’d imagine it would be hard for him to not put two and two together and realize that Goliath is “G”, Elisa’s ex he met last Halloween (just about 7 months ago in-universe). Still, if it hasn’t been brought up yet, it may be referenced in a future issue. So, once again, taking a “wait and see” approach.

That’s what the clan is doing, too, as they sit watching the broadcast on television in...the TV room? The furniture layout looks similar but it seems like a more stylized approach was taken, what with the walls replaced by black void. Not complaining, just noticing. Anyway, the whole clan is gathered around, with the couples sticking together (it may just be me, but Angela and Katana look particularly worried here).

The first witness for the Plaintiff is called: Halcyon Renard (naturally). Good to see him, but he really seems to be struggling to breathe throughout his testimony (yeah, Greg said one of the future stories would be Renard’s passing, guess that’s coming up soon [ME FROM THE FUTURE: yes, it is]). He champions Goliath, says the gargoyle has more “integrity and restraint” than “most humans” he knows, and says that as the “world’s leading expert in Artificial Intelligence” (wow!) he is qualified to state that Goliath is definitely sentient. All well so far, but then Margot cross-examines him and reveals that *HE* was the source of all the money and equipment that the G.T.F. received that allowed them (and obligated them, frankly) to hunt down and capture Goliath!
ME (ala Bender in “Futurama”): Saw it comin’.
Yeah, while it wasn’t confirmed, and there was a definite possibility of it being someone else, most signs pointed to Halcyon being the one behind it all. Margot uses this information to plant the idea in the judge (and the court of public opinion) that Halcyon, despite calling Goliath his friend, did this because he *wanted* Goliath captured. And while I’m sure most of us weren’t shocked by this, the clan *definitely* is. We only see Goliath and Lex’s reactions, but we definitely hear Coldstone’s. I doubt this has done anything to help his attitude toward humans.

Renard has to answer that he did fund the G.T.F. and tries to explain, but Margot just ends things there. Thankfully, Tobe is able to do a “redirect” and allow Halcyon to explain that he did this because “the situation in the city...seemed intolerable...unsustainable” and that he thought it would be best to “bring it to a head” and show the world who Goliath really is before Halcyon...well, he descends into a coughing fit but we all know what he was about to say, I’m sure.
Mention was made at the time that this sort of devious planning is uncharacteristic for Halcyon, and yeah it is. That might actually explain some of this plan's shortcomings (there were SO MANY ways this could have gone FUBAR); he's not used to being this kind of devious. But we have seen in the past (“Golem”) that the specter of his impending death can push him to do things he otherwise would never do. He wanted to show the world the good person he knows Goliath to be, and with his limited time and nearly unlimited resources...this was apparently the best he could come up with.
Well, Renard is excused to recover, and apologizes to Goliath as he is rolled out of court by Vogel.

Tobe’s next witness is Goliath himself. Our hero gives his speech (he’s good at that), explaining who he and his people are, what happened to them, where they came from, why they are here, and how they are protectors and not enemies. (Yeah, at this point there’s nothing to be gained by going into details about certain individuals...)
Of course, the first thing Travis comments on is the fact that Goliath *can* talk in the first place. Lex observes that the fact people are always surprised by them talking “doesn’t bode well.”

Margot moves to cross examine Goliath (saying his name in quotation marks...jerk), and (since she can’t say he is incapable of speech at this point) she seizes on Goliath’s statement that gargoyles “were hunted by humans to near extinction.” She harps on this, playing up the idea first that Goliath (and gargoyles in general) are not living with humans out of peace and goodwill but a lack of choice. Then when Goliath says that he has “chosen to glide on currents of peace” (nice line), she accuses him of waiting to strike for vengeance (wrong gargoyle, Yale). I like that Goliath knows that she is trying to make him angry, and acknowledges that she is succeeding, but that he can control his anger “as well as any human.” And when Margot brings up that “many humans in your position would demand revenge,” Goliath pulls out the old “human ways are not gargoyle ways” chestnut. Unfortunately, that gives Margot the opportunity to question, with that being the case, “why should a gargoyle ever qualify for human rights.”
(Love Lex’s calling her “the Wicked Witch of the West Side.”)

That’s all of the Plaintiff’s witnesses, though Goliath shuts down Tobe before the attorney can even suggest something--Elisa, of course, he’s trying to get Elisa on the stand and Goliath does NOT want that. So the Plaintiff rests and court is adjourned for the night. I love seeing the clan’s reactions here: Hudson’s cautious optimism versus Coldstone’s utter outrage, Gnash asking his parents if Goliath will be all right, Angela closing her eyes and just leaning into Broadway’s chest, and Lex asking Amp about Knight’s Spur possibly sheltering the Manhattan Clan. I wonder if this is just anxiety or Lex already trying to make “worst case scenario” plans. I remember talk about the original ending to “Angels in the Night” and how the clan abandoning New York City would have been pretty out-of-character for them...but it looks like there is one member who would at least consider that course of action.

Next night the trial resumes and so does the clan’s viewing of the proceedings. They’ve moved around the room a bit (this time the Timedancer family is on the couch), although Hudson is still in his chair and Coldstone has left the room entirely (just too angry after last night, apparently). The Defense’s witness is a Dr. Vaughn (new character alert!), who examined Goliath while the latter was unconscious at Rikers. Apparently, this wasn’t the best witness for the Defense, though, as what appears to be Margot’s very first question, about the difference in anatomy between gargoyles and humans, is immediately objected to by Tobe and sustained by Roebling. The hearing is not about physical differences after all, and there is no question they are different species--Margot is just trying to, once again, play up the idea that since gargoyles are not “human” they should not qualify for “human rights.” All Tobe brings up is that Vaughn didn’t converse with Goliath (and throws shade at examining “unconscious patients without their consent”).

The next witness for the defense is none other than John Castaway. Margot brings up Goliath’s “hunted by humans to near extinction” claim for Castaway to refute, with the Quarrymen leader saying that the best historical record of gargoyles is a “tome by Angus Canmore” stating that humanity didn’t hunt the gargoyles but was “merely defending themselves” from these “unholy beasts.” So now Margot’s trying to play up the “gargoyles are dangerous and want to kill us” angle.
On the cross, Tobe brings up that Castaway is descended from Angus Canmore, which John confirms with pride. Huh...I guess when he wanted to dispense with the Jon Canmore identity, he wanted his new persona to still be related to the family in some way. There’s probably documentation proving that Castaway is a distant relation of the “main branch” Canmores (what can’t the Illuminati do?). Regardless, Tobe ultimately calls out the Quarrymen as a hate group “trying to pass itself off as reasonable.” I may have done a little fist pump action at that.

The next (and apparently final) witness for the Defense is ol’ Officer Renqvist. Margot again plays up the “dangerous” aspect of the gargoyles, having Renqvist recount seeing Goliath rip the bars off his cell. Tobe cross-examines (I love how the two panels are the same angle with the different attorney in the same position) and gets Renqvist to confirm that Goliath refused to escape twice. Now, however, it’s Margot’s turn to redirect, and she points out that despite Goliath having saved Renqvist’s life (while indicating that it was just incidental to Goliath saving his own life) the guard still holds onto the shock-collar’s remote control because he “[does] not feel safe around him.” Something which Renqvist confirms (though, to his credit, he looks like he might be ashamed of that). I've said it before: Margot knows she can't prove Goliath is "just an animal" now, so she's going for the "dangerous monster that probably wants to kill us all" route.

At this point, both sides have rested, and Roebling is about to proceed, but Tobe would like to call a rebuttal witness. Everyone knows where this is going, and Goliath is not happy, but this time Tobe will not be deterred. He calls to the stand...
Elisa Nichelle Maza! I love that her formal outfit is a reversal of her normal color scheme. And I really love the nod to the voice actress of her mother, Nichelle Nichols. And this brings hope to Lexington.
(Question: any significance to Elisa’s badge number? 16123?)
And I am caught up! Just in time for the next issue (this time for sure)!


Here's to the coming New Year! Wishing everyone the best for it!
****Blaise raises a glass and starts to drink. Except...it looks like the glass is...drinking Blaise? Whatever happened, it resulted in a little Blaise inside the floating glass that makes its way out of the Room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Dec 30, 2023 5:08:10 pm EST from 45.48.54.221

Quiet week in here for obvious reasons.

Random thought I had after reading #11 again: [SPOILER] Gnash is actually a little older than Pete and Rosie when he freed them. Because gargoyles age at half the rate of humans, he's coming up on 20 years old (though appearing more as 10) while they are still in their teens. This is compared nicely with his interactions with Terry, Billy, and Susan in the Halloween Special where he appears of similar age, but is actually much older. Now that that friendship has been forged, it will be interesting to see if/how their ages matter as they all get older. When Terry is in his early 20s and encountering the New Olympians, Gnash will only be comparable to a teenager. By the time Artus hatches, Gnash will appear about 20 years old, but Terry will be in his early 40s! Of course, this sort of math applies to every human and gargoyle and will perhaps be much more poignant with Goliath and Elisa. He should easily outlive her if he lives as long as Old Pog since that means he has something like 140 years left, but I suspect he won't live that long and it's possible Elisa will survive past him. We'll see. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Fri, Dec 29, 2023 10:43:43 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Fourth Calling Bird stopping by to wish everyone a happy holiday!
geometry dash lite - [languidsoy at gmail dot com]
ok
posted @ Fri, Dec 29, 2023 4:44:37 am EST from 156.146.47.227

Happy holidays everyone!
Excavating Canberra Pros
posted @ Wed, Dec 27, 2023 4:30:54 pm EST from 158.62.39.229

I hope everyone here is having a good Christmas.

Each year, I read "A Christmas Carol" on either Christmas or Christmas Eve (Christmas this year). I've mentioned this before (I remember posting this on my first Christmas here, back in 1996), but there are some moments in the book that haven't obtained the publicity of "Bah, humbug!" or "And God bless us, everyone!" but which I think are worth sharing.

1. At the start of the book, Dickens stresses that Jacob Marley is dead, since it's crucial to understanding the story, and says that he's as dead as a door-nail. He then remarks that he's wondered why the phrase is "dead as a door-nail", when there doesn't appear to be anything especially dead about door-nails, and that "dead as a coffin-nail" would make better sense, but admits that it's too late to change it.

2. Ebenezer Scrooge is described as living in "a gloomy suite of rooms, in a lowering pile of building up a yard, where it had so little business to be, that one could scarcely help fancying it must have run there when it was a young house, playing at hide-and-seek with other houses, and have forgotten the way out again".

3. Marley, when speaking to Scrooge, tells him "How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day." Scrooge, naturally, is unsettled by that revelation (and who can blame him?).

4. The Ghost of Christmas Present's arrival is heralded by a mysterious glow, which puzzles Scrooge; he even wonders if he's fallen victim to spontaneous combustion (a device that Dickens later used in "Bleak House" for real). Then it occurs to him that it might be coming from the next room, about which Dickens says "as you or I would have thought at first; for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 7:37:52 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

I hope that all of you have a wonderful holiday! Or just a good day in general, if you don't celebrate something.
Kate
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 4:05:38 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Fourth Calling Bird stopping by to wish everyone a happy holiday!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 3:29:17 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Third wise man, checking in.

Random thought: [SPOILER] This dragon (assuming its the same one in Dark Ages and the "present" story) [/SPOILER] is getting more of a build up than Dino got!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 10:10:16 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Merry Christmas!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 7:51:24 am EST from 174.72.60.154

First of the week, and Merry Christmas to all who celebrate!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 25, 2023 12:13:15 am EST from 73.98.83.6