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You said that Broadway has a sibling, presumably a sister, named Hyppolyta. Where is she currently--- on Avalon? Was she slaughtered at the Wyvern massacre?
She's dead. I'm not saying more than that now.
Dear Greg Here's another set of questions for you.
1a)How did Demona find those five gargs in City of Stone?
1b)Were the a few clans in Scotland?
2a)Did have a rookery?
2b)Did Demona contribute?
3a)Why did Demona treat her clan more like an army ten family?
3b)Why did Demona do nothing to stop the princess,magus and Tom when they took the clan's eggs?
1a. She searched around. And there were more than five. But they lived in "cells" so that the Hunter couldn't stumble on any one location and destroy them all.
b. I know there's a typo in there, but I still am not sure what this question is.
2a. Demona's clan? Probably they had one when they needed one.
3a. Why do YOU think?
3b. Paralyzing guilt.
Would any of the spinoffs featured the Pack (or at least members of the Pack) as villains?
Thank you for your time.
Sure. Most. Let's see...
Gargoyles 2158 (revised)
And I wouldn't be surprised if we also saw them in
But I would be surprised if they showed up in
Would we have seen Hyppolyta on any series other than Dark Ages?
How did she get her name? Was she aware that she had a name (like Goliath) or unaware of it (Othello, Desdemona etc)?
Possibly TimeDancer. Flashbacks in GARGOYLES, maybe.
That's a decision, I'm still mulling over, frankly. Did anyone notice that Goliath was already named by 984 in "Long Way To Morning"? I didn't, until a recent reviewing revealed it. Very disconcerting.
You said that Hudson had two biological children and would have had a third if his mate hadn't been killed. Does that mean he mated after he was biologically 25? Because if not, they could have had conceived eggs in 928 (Goliath's generation), 948 (Broadway) and 968 (Bronx's generation) since his mate was killed in 971 as you've told us.
So, was it a miscalculation on your part, or did Hudson first mate late in life?
And does Hyppolyta belong to Goliath's or to Bronx's generation?
Yeah. That was a mistake. A very annoying mistake. His eldest biological child is part of Goliath's generation. (Thus Goliath, Demona, Iago, etc. are all his rookery children.) His second biological child (Broadway) is obviously part of the Trio's generation. (And he's a rookery father to all of them as well.) His third biological child, and there is a third one, hatched in the same generation as Bronx. (And he was a rookery father to all of them as well. Well, all the gargoyles, not the beasts.)
Hyppolyta was part of the generation that included--
Wait a minute. Just cuz I made a mistake, doesn't mean I have to give everything away right now.
Whew. You almost had me.
A few more Wyvern questions:
1a) Hakon and the captain exhibited several kinds of powers (causing hallucinations, animating the rock-clan, drawing Goliath's life energy). Which of these were their own powers (as "ghosts"), and which did they possess solely by tapping into the magic of the ruins/area? 1b) Is the purpose of the rune temple in the lair solely to draw and transfer life energy? 1c) How did Hakon and the Captain know how to use it? 2) The Captain said that their hatred may have been a factor in why they were trapped down there. Was it specifically hatred, or "unfinished business" that for them, just happened to involve hatred? 3a) Did the Archmage know of the ruins before he joined Malcolm's service? 3b) If so, were the ruins part of the reason he joined?
1a. The hallucinations were ghost powers. Tapping Goliath's life force was a "power" of the Megalith Dance down below. Animating the rocks was generally a ghost power, but it was slightly more sophisticated, and I think that the location helped them focus and control their power more.
1b. Solely? no.
1c. Time and grokking.
3b. Sorta. Not really.
Wyvern area questions:
1) Do the ancient ruins within/beneath the Archmage's lair have anything to do with that ancient--and now extinct--fourth race of sentient beings on Earth? 2) Did the presence of a gargoyle clan at the cliffs of Wyvern have anything to do with those ruins in the Archmage's lair? 3) When I asked about your answer that the area was "mostly" haunted by Hakon and the captain, you asked "when?". So to specify, who else haunted the area a) in the days the 4th race still roamed the Earth b) the time between their extinction and the appearance of the Wyvern clan on the cliffs c) the time between when the Wyvern clan appeared and when Malcolm constructed a castle on the cliff d) The time between when Malcolm's castle was built and Hakon and the Captain were killed (this includes the period directly after the Wyvern massacre). 4) In "Shadows of the Past", upon looking at the carvings, Angela sees the Archmage attacking a gargoyle. Yet you said that the hieroglyphics in this cave were ancient, so they *couldn't* be of the Archmage himself, right? And Goliath seems to see something different. So are different people *really* seeing different things, or is Goliath hallucinating because of the ghosts, or it a property of the carving itself? 5a) Are the ones who built the ruins beneath the cave, also the ones who built the ruins over which Malcolm built his castle? 5b) Did any of those ruins at the old castle site possess magical properties, like the temple building in the lair? 5c) Were any parts of these ruins directly incorporated into the foundations of Malcolm's new castle? 6a) When the captain explained why they were trapped there, he said "Maybe it was the magic in this place....". Is the magic he's referring to solely a property of the ruins that were constructed there, or is the area itself inherently magical? b) If it's the latter, how far does this magic extend? Outside of the cave? The entire cliff? Miles? c) If it includes the cliff, would this magic still remain in the pieces that were transported to Xanatos's building? d) If the magic of the area helped hold Hakon and the captain's spirits, was it also a factor in why the Coldtrio's spirits were held in suspension and still around to be transferred to Coldstone? e) Hakon and the Captain seemed to be able to animate bits rock to look and act like Goliath's clan. But Goliath's clan was also killed nearby, and their spirits could have animated the rock-clan (except Demona). Just to be clear, was the rock-clan controlled entirely by Hakon and the Captain?
Vash, it would really make my life easier if you would hit the return key between each question.
1. I'm not saying.
3. Does 4th race equate with LSZ's "Zeroth" race or am I just getting confused again? Look let me just sum up by saying that the Captain and Hakon weren't the only ghosts to ever haunt that place.
4. All of the above. And it could be the Archmage, if the carving is prophetic.
b. Not so much.
c. Like radiation? I'm not sure about that. It's the place. A nexus of power. Holy ground.
e. Yes. They were attempting to gaslight Goliath.
This question may have been asked before, but I could not find it.
It has been established that the 994 Gargoyles did not have names. On the other hand, they did have various labels.
-Angel of the Night
-Second in command (Tom's words in Avqalon 1)
-Old friend (still included)
-the king called him something in Long Day's Journey to Morning
They had a few others that I do not remember.
Meanwhile, just about everyone else had the name 'friend'.
Were you attempting to do anything concerning the more important figures in the Wyvern clan? (Demona, Goliath, Hudson) Or does this just kind of 'happen' because of their standing?
Designations are all relative to who's talking. Hudson is "Old Friend" to Goliath. He is "Old Soldier" to Demona. Demona is "my angel" to Goliath. But rest assured, Hudson doesn't call her "MY angel".
I am toying with the idea that Prince Malcolm named Hudson and a bunch of his warriors (including, obviously Goliath), but I have not made up my mind yet.
Had a good time at the Gargoyles Adult Chatroom the other day, and it got me thinking. Someone named VP (or VJ?) made the point that everything I've done after, well, "The Journey" I guess, is fanfiction. At first, I misunderstood him. For example, I thought he was confusing Katana with Sata. But he made it clear, that he meant the quote-unquote Master Plan. My initial reaction was to balk.
But I think he's got a point.
Some of this stuff was completed while I was still on the Disney Payroll in late '95, early '96, but none of it's canon in my mind. Canon, as far as I'm concerned only includes the 66 episodes running from "Awakening, Part One" through "The Journey". The other 12 Goliath Chronicles are debatable. Because the show ISN'T on the air, I think I personally am free NOT to regard them as canon. If and/or when the show does get going again in some shape or form, then a more definitive decision will have to be made at that point about those additional 12 stories.
But putting Goliath Chronicles (and Marvel Comics and Disney Adventures, etc.) aside for the moment, that still leaves us with what to do about things like:
--"Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers..."
--Various ASK GREG and other revelations.
--The Spin-Offs: DARK AGES, GARGOYLES 2158, TIMEDANCER, PENDRAGON, THE NEW OLYMPIANS, BAD GUYS
--My further plans for the GARGOYLES main series itself.
Calling the work I've done on any of the above "fanfic" rankles at first, but that's largely a problem of semantics. It certainly isn't canon. At this point, legally, I have no more connection to the GARGOYLES property than any of you do. Plus, as I've said many times before, I won't be held to any of it. Hell, for all you know everything I've revealed is just one big snow-job to keep you from guessing my real plans. (It's not, but it might have been smarter of me if it was.)
I do think I'm something of an authority on the subject of Gargoyles. And I also think that if the show is ever brought back, the PTB at Disney would be likely (at least given current management) to come to me first to try and revive it. Plus I'm actively working on getting the show revived, again "in some shape or form".
But that doesn't change anything regarding the question of canon.
As many of you know, I've been working on a major revision of 2158. This is taking me longer than I thought, because -- and I shouldn't have been surprised by this, but -- it's effecting the ENTIRE chronology of the series. In addition to changing the year (and thus the title) of GARGOYLES 2158, I've already been forced to go back and make adjustments to both DARK AGES and "Once Upon A Time...Three Brothers". I now know that the last posted chapter of three brothers wound up being the last chapter of that little story period. Because "3Bros" really wound up being just a prologue to DARK AGES. And where "3Bros" leaves off is in fact right at the beginning of where DARK AGES begins.
The 2158 revamp has also necessitated minor changes in TimeDancer. And has clarified my thinking on Pendragon and Bad Guys as well.
[Thankfully, none of it has effected the Clan Contest. We should still be able to put that monster to bed soon.]
All this flux has made it difficult for me to keep certain details clear in my head. For example, at that Friday 9/1/00 chat, I revealed that Hudson had two biological children, Hyppolyta and Broadway. That was an error. Hudson had THREE biological children. (I got my dates mixed up.)
I'm hoping that the work I'm doing now will clean a lot of stuff up. I'm hoping that clarity (and my personal certainty) will return. But this flux isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know I screwed up at least a few times (Garg Universe-wise) within the 66 episodes. I tried to keep those mistakes to a minimum, but they happened. I'd like to avoid making more mistakes, even here at ASK GREG. I definitely feel like I'm getting closer to the "true" Gargoyles Universe, if that's possible and/or makes any sense.
Updates on all this should come over the next ten months. But I'm targeting Gathering 2001 for completion. I'm hoping to be able to make some big announcements there. So bear with me.
But to be fair to VP, he was right. I wouldn't call what I do "fanfiction". For starters, none of it is in the form of fiction. And so calling it that may be giving it TOO MUCH credit. But at the moment, I have no more claim to canon than anyone.
Rather, I'd say that if you like the stories I did come up with on the original 66, and think you might enjoy what I'd do next -- the way you might enjoy what Christine Morgan or Christi Smith Hayden or TGS does next -- than stay tuned. I've got more to tell you and more to reveal by and by.
In long way to morning..i think it is...thone where we first see the archmage...a flashback of hudson's...they are trying to find an antidote to the poison he put on the king///demona, hudson and goliath come across a wall with heiroglyphs...a human killing a gargoyle:
1. what does this mean, is it a saying something of the past or the future
2. who drew the picture
3.is demona involved with this
4. how old is the writing
5.does the archmage know of this
6.does the archmage know of the signifigance of the pictures.
The Prince, but yeah...
2. Not saying now.
3. Involved? What do you mean?
1. Where did that monolith deep beneath the Archmage's lair in "Shadows of the Past" come from?
2. Did the Archmage know it existed?
3. If #2 is yes, did he create it?
1. It came from down there.
About the Dark Ages:
What is Kenneth II opinion on the Gargoyles? Does he view them as monsters like most humans, allies or friends just like Robbie and Malcom?
He has reason to view them as Allies. But he hasn't actually spent much time with them.
After the Wyvern Massacre of 994, Castle Wyvern was apparently left deserted for a thousand years except for Goliath and his clan in their stone sleep upon the battlements. Why was it that the castle was left unoccupied until Xanatos came along in 1994? Did the ghosts of the Captain and Hakon discourage anybody from reclaiming the castle prior to Xanatos, or was it simply ignored?
Ghosts didn't help. Also, it was a tough site to reclaim.
How did the race that preceded the three races die out?
1) If and when you get to do tose Gargoyle Episodes and Spinoffs do you plan to do crossovers like the following:
2) Would you still include the Previously On Gargoyles segments when necessary?
1. 2158(revised) and TimeDancer, definitely.
Dark Ages and TimeDancer, probably.
Pendragon/Bad Guys. Probably, eventually.
Bad Guys/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Pendragon/Bad Guys - Eventually.
I asked this before but seems to have gotten lost, so I decided to repost it:
1) What would the relationship between Iago and Demona have been like in the Dark Ages? After all Demona was the Archmages' apprentice, but Iago was allied with him, so would he look down on her? In HIGH NOON, he calls her 'sister', but thats because he doesn't know that it is her fault he is dead and that she is now an enemy of Goliath.
Also would he hate her, in Dark Ages, because she was in love with Goliath and was friends with Desdemona and Othello?
2) Did Goliath etc, learn of Demona's apprenticeship with The Archmage?
3) If the answer to (2) is yes, then how would Goliath react?
Did you know when you were making "Awakening" that the Magus had that hopeless love for Princess Katharine? I ask this because I felt that that element of his character made it all the more clear why he went utterly berserk against the gargoyles when he thought that she was dead.
Yes, I knew.
Did Iago ever have a mate in the 10th century?
Or at any rate, not that I know of right now.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but in Castle Wyvern (994), were there only four generations in the Clan?
The oldest - Hudson
The middle - Goliath, Demona, Iago, Desdemona and Othello
The yougest - Brooklyn, Lexington and Broadway
The rookery - The eggs (Angela, Gabriel etc)
Of course there were other gargoyles in each generation but I don't know their names (none of them have any names anyway, except Goliath, in 994.)
But, anyway, were there any other generations in the clan like an older one or one in between the eggs and the Trio's generation.
Each generation should have a ten year age gap(biologically).
The Trio are 18 (biologically) in 994
Goliath is 28 (biologically) in 994
Hudson is around 50 (biologically) in 994
So shouldn't there be a generation between Goliath and Hudson, and a generation between Brooklyn and Gabriel?
You're wrong. I don't have my timeline with me, but there's AT LEAST two generations between Hudson and Goliath. (Hudson wasn't fifty in 994.)
And you've forgotten Bronx's generation, between Brooklyn and Gabriel.
You've forgotten. I never did.
Hi Greg. Here are some questions about the Wyvern (Scotland) area: 1) You mentioned before that the area was huanted "monstly" by Hakon and the Captain. Who else haunted it? 2a) Who constructed the rune-covered temple-ish structure in the Archmage's cave? 2b) If you don't want to be specific, were they human? 2c) Do the ruins in this area have anything to do with the name "Wyvern"? 3) By our scores in the contest, I think it's pretty much a given that Wyvern will be a location for a future clan. Will these ruins be a significant reason for a new clan starting up here?
2a. Not saying now.
2b. I don't want to be specific at this time.
2c. The ruins? Sort of.
3. I refuse to confirm the basic hypothesis of this question until after the contest has been won. (Which is probably gonna take years at this rate.)
1) How long did it take for the New Olympians to develop their technology to the level seen in New Olympians?
2) In any respects are any of the three races involved in the Space-Spawn war less advanced than what we've seen of Earthly technology? Meaning is there anything in particular technologically Earth has that the aliens don't have? Like say, Sevarius' genetic manipulation, the NO's anti-gravity, Xanatos' Matrix..
3) How advanced were Gargoyles technologically by the time humanity came along? Stone Age-tech?
4) Castle Wyvern is a large stone-built fortress that looks like it was built using construction techniques and concepts that didn't appear in Europe until after the Crusades(I think). So why, in the Gargoyles universe, are the Europeans of 994 more advanced than in history? What in-universe explanation is there?
5) King Arthur of the 6th century seems to wear at least partial plate armour that didn't appear until the 1400's? what's the in-universe explanation here?
1. Until 1996.
2. Generally, they are more advanced than us. But I won't rule out the possiblility that we might not be able to surprise them.
3. Not very. It was unnecessary to their life-styles. Humans are a much more adaptable race, for better and for worse.
4. In universe, I don't need an explanation if I don't feel like dealing. They just are. Perhaps less was forgotten. Perhaps magic was involved. Perhaps our knowledge is flawed.
5. He had access to sources of Armor that most people didn't. We assume that these things didn't EXIST until later. All we KNOW is that they weren't prevalent until later.
Story Editor: Michael Reaves
Written by Marty Isenberg & Robert N. Skir
I just watched "Legion" again. Time to Ramble.
From the memo I posted earlier this week, you'll see that the never used on screen names of Othello, Desdemona and Iago were my idea. But I've always wondered if that's the case. The outline that Marty and Bob wrote immediately prior to that memo had all the Othello elements very, very present in the story. All they didn't do was NAME the characters. I always wondered whether they and/or Michael had the Othello story specifically in mind, consciously or un-, and I just capitalized on it.
The Goldencup Bakery Building, which semi-secretly houses a defense department hi-tech research and development installation is modeled after the Silver Cup Bakery Building -- which actually exists in Brooklyn (as I recall). That Building was trashed in the original HIGHLANDER movie in the final battle between Connor and the Kragen (who was played by a pretty damned horrific Clancy Brown). Small world.
I was always worried that the whole Othello, Desdemona, Iago, Cassio (whoops, I mean Goliath) backstory was a bit vague in this episode. Did anyone have problems getting it?
I don't think I'd like to be one of those Goldencup Guards. Coldstone punches one of them out. That's gotta hoit. He just seems fairly unstoppable in that Xanatos-program controlled sequence. I like how that plays.
Matt says to Elisa: "You never let me drive." My wife's reaction: "Was that in homage to me?" My wife, you see, almost always drives when we're together. She gets carsick when anyone else drives. And I don't much care.
Speaking of Matt, we've got that line about him spending six months reading RECAP manuals to justify why a normal detective would be in charge of RECAP in the first place. Just trying to avoid either adding a superfluous character and/or making the situation seem artificial.
Another appearance of the Scarab Corp. Logo, even though Scarab is never mentioned by name. Oh, well...
Coldstone flees the Goldencup. Goliath and Lex pursue, and Coldstone attacks them. Then he immediately stops, when he sees it's Goliath. The problem I always had with that scene is that the lighting made it obvious that it was Goliath from moment one. (Not just to us, but to Coldstone.) If Goliath had been in shadows, it would have played better.
Minutes later Lex asks Goliath if it's wise to take Coldstone into their home: "He hasn't always been your friend." This was, theoretically, a reference not simply to the most recent attack, nor even only to the events of "Reawakening", but also a reference to the pre-Massacre backstory of the actually non-existent love triangle (or square or pentagram if you include Demona) that caused Goliath and Othello to fight way back when. Lex remembers those days too. Othello was always a bit of a hot-head.
I love Goliath's response: "Without trust there can be no clan." And I love that this is part of a Lex/Goliath exchange. It fits in perfectly with the message they taught each other in "Thrill of the Hunt". Gotta take some chances on occasion. Or else you'll always be alone. It's an anti-Demona mentality. Or rather a mentality that is strikingly un-Demona-esque.
From the moment Coldstone premiered in "Reawakening" I knew (that if we survived to a second season) we'd discover that he was created from three Gargoyles. Tried to work that conceptually into the design more, but we never quite achieved it. So basically that becomes something that the audience has to take on trust.
Which brings me to the title "Legion". It's a one-word title which usually is a tip-off that it's one of mine. I know it's a biblical reference. Some possessed guy with a demon/devil inside who goes by the name "Legion". But that's not actually where I got it. When I was a kid, I saw this tv movie based on Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN. It starred Michael Sarazan or Chris Sarandon. (I always used to mix those two guys up.) It was trying to present a more realistic believable version of the Frankenstein story. I was pretty young. And I don't remember too much about it. I do remember that I was supposed to be asleep -- past my bedtime in the days before my parents gave up and I began going to bed long after they were asleep. But instead of being asleep, I was watching it, in the dark, with the volume turned as far down as possible, me sitting right by the set, so I could flip it off if I heard my parents' door opening. (This was long before remote controls were common.) Anyway, the one scene that I really remember is a scene where they put the Monster under hypnosis. The voices of all the people who "donated" body parts begin to speak. And one of them quotes the "Legion" thing from the bible. But I didn't know that. That is I didn't know back then that he was quoting anyone or anything. It just seemed like a very powerful, poetic and humanly true statement. So it wasn't until college that I read that passage in the bible and realized where it was from. Can anyone cite the actual quote? I can't remember where exactly it's from, and I don't feel like searching right now.
Anyway, all this is relevant because Coldstone was ALWAYS our Frankenstein character from the "IT'S ALIVE!" moment to the "Legion" stuff here.
Coldstone calls Hudson "Mentor". That's a "name" I've been long considering for Hudson's "designation" in the DARK AGES prequel spin-off.
Coldstone shoots Goliath at point blank range. Goliath gets up unharmed. A far cry from what happened to G in "Long Way to Morning." Now in the outline and script, it says that Coldstone uses his "concussion cannon" as opposed to his laser cannon. But nothing in the as-aired episode makes that distinction. And so it just looks irresponsible to me. Like suddenly we're saying violence has no repercussions. Did that bother anyone else?
I love the dark comedy of Coldstone going bonkers at Ellis Island. Fighting with himself. I think Michael Dorn did a terrific job playing all four aspects of CS's personality. Which of you figured out what when? I'd like to know.
The Trio has the Recap visor. Now all they have to do is find Goliath, Hudson and Coldstone. How will they do that? "Three guesses?" A very elegant way to explain how in a huge city, they're able to locate three gargoyles.
Kenner's Coldstone toy is a lot of fun. With it's window into Coldstone's soul. And the spinner that allows any of the four personas to take over at random.
Xanatos doesn't even appear until the VERY END of Act Two. And it's not even really Xanatos, just a program designed by him. Normally, I'd say that wasn't playing fair. But I feel like his presence was obvious all-along. (And did David personally design that program. Or did he just put his stamp on it, management-style?)
There's a moment when Goliath, thrilled to see his rookery sister again, hugs Desdemona. She is immediately annoyed, because she knows that hug is prone to misinterpretation. It's a nice little touch in the animation.
I always wondered what if anything Demona thought about that ancient conflict way back when. Was Iago playing her as well? Trying to make her jealous of Desdemona? I think maybe he did try. But wouldn't it be cool if she didn't credit it for a second. If she just knew intuitively that Desdemona didn't present any threat at all to her relationship with G? Because, I feel the opposite is true. That Demona knew intuitively that Elisa DID present a threat. Say what you want for Demona, but her subconscious knows her man.
I love that moment where BOTH Iago and Xanatos are whispering in Othello's ears. Poor slob never stood a chance.
We've got a nice little Xanatos tag in this one too. Certainly not a doozy as in "Leader" or "Metamorphosis", but it's got a nice little kick to it, I think. And that's THREE episodes in a row. X had been busy.
And then I love the last beat back at the clock tower. Goliath has confiscated Coldstone's body, to keep it safe and "among friends" should he/she ever wake up again. I wanted to keep it in the corner from that point until "High Noon". Always present and visible. We didn't for two reasons. First, we figured it would be a bit confusing. The Batcave can get away with the giant penny and other souvenirs from Batman's cases, because there ARE multiple souvenirs. But just having one immobile gargoyle in the background, as cool and creepy as that is, would be horribly distracting for any audience member who missed this one particular episode. And second, we had our tier system. What if "Legion" wasn't ready as scheduled. We couldn't have Coldstone sitting around the clock tower in later episodes that we'd be forced to air first. Talk about disconcerting. So we invented a back room. Where Coldstone, the Grimorum, the Gate and eventually the eye could be stored.
Comments welcome, as usual...
Hello I'm a really big fan of Gargoyles, I watch the show all the time.
Well here's my Q.
Is there anywhere on the web that your spin-offs are in print, or are they only at the gatherings?
Pretty much only at the Gathering. But you can get a lot of info on them by checking the following ASK GREG archives...
A sort of "ramble-reply" to "Long Way Till Morning".
I'll have to confess that the only part of my "first time I saw it" response to this episode that I now remember (other than my delight at another medieval sequence - the 984 scenes in this case) was that I initially believed that Prince Malcolm would actually succumb to the Archmage's poisoned dart, and that this was how he'd died. (It was obvious that he must have died at some point before the 994 events in "Awakening", naturally, since Katharine's ruling Wyvern by then). So the fact that, in the succeeding flashbacks in this episode after the initial one, he does live in the end, surprised me.
I certainly agree with you on the Katharine-and-Malcolm scenes; I'd also felt on my own before reading that ramble that Malcolm was unwittingly planting the seeds of bigotry in his daughter when he used the gargoyles as a means of frightening her to be good. (Kind of reminds me of something I'd read once in either "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" about a policeman protesting the way that a few parents use police as "bogeymen" to scare their children into being good similarly). Indeed, Prince Malcolm's judgement really does come across in this episode as a bit on the poor side beyond Katharine; he's overly confident about the Archmage no longer being a threat, while Hudson correctly recognizes that the sorcerer could return for revenge - and indeed, the Archmage does.
Demona's ambitious streak in the 984 scene reminds me a bit of Lady Macbeth similarly urging Macbeth to dispose of Duncan in Shakespeare's play - which, when you stop to think over her future, is rather appropriate. (Indeed, in "Sanctuary", Demona actually becomes "Lady Macbeth" in a literal sense - and if you ask me, she fits the Shakespearean character far better than Gruoch ever did).
I must admit that I've always had a certain fondness for Hudson, and he certainly comes across as a sympathetic figure here. One can't help but admire his dogged persistence in keeping Goliath safe from Demona in the present day. He may think of himself as all washed up, but he still does his duty in protecting Goliath against a very determined adversary.
Two scenes I particularly like in this episode, both near the end: the sight of Demona slowly approaching through the graveyard in the distance, and the bit where she emerges from behind the stone angel - both positively creepy.
This was a great story, I thought.
And I agree with your Demona/Lady Macbeth assessment. A lot of that was intentional.
1.What happened to Princess Elena?
2.And if she died, How?
1. She died.
2. That's a story for another day...
The Magus' name. Please, please, please, please, tell me the Magus' given name.
You're going to go all Xellos on me and say "That... is a secret.", I just know it.
1.What is Demonas opinion of Gruoch?
1. I think they kept their distance from each other, generally. No animosity. But I don't see them as friendly. Of course, after it went bad, they hated each other.
1.What is Demonas opinion of Luoch?, after all, he was a major supporter of her clan and was outraged when Bodhe suggested that Macbeth betray Demonas clan.
I think she liked him during those 17 golden years. Or at any rate, liked him well enough. Probably wouldn't admit it, but liked him.
After it all went bad, I think he became just another human to her. But by then she was fleeing Scotland. And he didn't have long for the world.
If you ever find the time, do you think you could could continue "Once upon a time there were three brothers..."? I believe we have four parts, but there is obviously more. I know everyone who visits this place would appreciate it. Thanks again, and if you can't, just keep it in mind =)
I'd like to continue it too. But I've lost considerable momentum, and we've got such a backlog here (which I'm trying to get through in between real work, etc.) that I'm not exactly sure when I'll get to it. But keep asking. One of these days, I'll be inspired, and a little push won't hurt.
"Long Way To Morning" This was my title, based on an idea I'd had from way early in the development of the series. It was always obvious to me that the fact that the gargs turned to vulnerable stone at sunrise, gave the series a built-in ticking clock that added tension. But given the gargoyles' healing factor (to borrow a Wolverine term) it occured to me early on that there might come a time when sunrise couldn't come fast enough. That was the origin of this episode and the title. (I think I may have even mentioned the scenario in the Series' Writers' Bible.)
The other obvious purpose of the episode was to give Hudson a showcase episode to equal the Trio tryptich. As I've mentioned before, Gargoyles was originally developed as a comic series, and one of the funny little gargoyles in that show was "Ralph", a very domestic couch potato Gargoyle who loved to stay at home and watch T.V. Hudson developed out of Ralph, but he spent much of the first few episodes "Guarding the castle" (or the clock tower). We'd given him some great action in AWAKENING. But we still felt a major need to UN-RALPH him.
I wanted to deal with his age as realistically as possible. To have him doubt himself, maybe even be aware of his limitations, but then have him prove to himself that he still had something to contribute. I think we basically succeed in that here.
But this ep afforded us other opportunities as well. Opportunities to explore Wyvern backstory in our parallel flashback story:
--We find out definitively that Hudson WAS the leader of the clan and that Goliath was his second. We also get to see the baton get passed.
--We learn how Hudson was blinded in one eye.
--We meet Prince Malcolm and get a sense of how Princess Katharine became the bitch she was at the start of "Awakening". I think this was very important in paving the way for her role in the "Avalon" tryptich. By the end of "Awakening", she's remorseful and has seen the error of her ways, but it doesn't change how badly she acted. But this episode reveals how and why her antipathy toward Gargoyles was created. It doesn't excuse her behaviour, but it helps to explain it enough so that we can buy her as a heroine when we next see her. Malcolm doesn't come off as well. I wanted to present how easily casual thoughtless words could be hurtful, and even lead to tragic consequences. My daughter Erin (age 5 1/2) had seen this episode at least once before. But this time, that aspect of Malcolm's inadvertent damage and Katharine's mistaken blame really grabbed her attention. The injustice of it really troubled her. Which is exactly the response I was looking for. (My kids are so cool. She also noticed Hudson's eye getting injured, and commented on how smart Hudson was to jump off into the waterfall.)
--I love the subtle changes that Jeff, Keith and Marina made in their voices when playing the young Magus, Goliath and Demona. It's interesting to see Demona's progression in hindsight from "Vows" to "Long Way" to "Awakening, Part One" to "City of Stone" to the present day. She really is a fascinating character, if I do say so myself. Here, you see her ambition. But no villainy. Of course, it made for a nice counterpoint with her vicious murderous tendencies in the present day story.
--Throughout production of this episode, I had to keep pointing out to the artists, etc., that the flashbacks all had a point of view, i.e. Hudson's. That Demona and Goliath's "private conversations" could NOT be as private as they thought. Hudson had to know what they were saying about him. Both because it further eroded his confidence in both the past and present (the true demon he had to overcome) and because if he didn't hear those conversations it would be cheating to include them in HIS dreams and flashbacks.
--We also intro'd the ARCHMAGE. A one-shot villain if I ever saw one, except that David Warner was so amazing, I knew I had to bring the character back. When he falls into the chasm, you can just here the Phoenix Gate exploding open down there. (Of course, to some people that sounded like him hitting bottom. Their mistake.)
Brooklyn still has it in for D. Broadway is now Ultra-Protective of Elisa. Hudson has superior tracking skills in the past and the present.
And Demona has clearly focused her hatred on Elisa. (Who, by the way, loses her second gun of the series.) It was important for these early episodes that we fool Demona into thinking that Elisa was dead. Otherwise, how else do we explain why she doesn't just kill her.
Demona at the end, uses her cannon as a club. This was designed to be ambiguous. Did Hudson's sword damage the weapon? Or was Demona just so furious that she wanted the satisfaction of cudgeling the old guy to death? Yeah, it was designed to be ambiguous, but no one ever EVER thought that the gun was damaged. They all assumed Demona just lost it. Which is probably true.
Speaking of that Waterfall thing, that image was important retro-pipe for Hunter's Moon, Part Three. (More on that in 54 chapters.)
Animation-wise, I just wish Demona hadn't come off as such a lousy shot.
I love Hudson and Goliath's last exchange. Goliath assures Hudson that he still has "Years of fighting left". Hudson, glad to be of use, is still less than thrilled at the prospect. It's a great wry beat, but it was also important to me to point out that no rational person would wish to fight like that forever. The gargs, including Hudson, fight the good fight because they have to, because it is their duty, part of their natural protective instincts. But none of them WANT to fight.
As usual, I'd like to encourage responses to this episode here at ASK GREG, particularly how you responded to viewing this for the first time.
I was just wondering, is Hakon from Gargoyles in any way connected to the Norwegian king Håkon, Harald Finehair's son? From what I've read, I have a faint idea that Håkon was around in the late 900's, but I'm not sure, I'd have to research it more. Anyway, thank you for your time.
I'd have to research it more too.
Did you have any plans to incorporate any of the elements from Beowulf into the series?
Yes. Like I said, eventually, everything.
You were once asked when Castle Wyvern was built, and your response was "which time?" My question is: Is there an interesting story behind one of the falls of Castle Wyvern? Could you mention anything more about the story here? Would we of seen this fall and rebuilding in the proposed Dark Ages spin-off? Thanks (and yes, I realize that's more than one question...)
I'd say there are interesting stories behind every fall and rebuild. DARK AGES would have focused on the final rebuilding (unless you count Xanatos placing the thing on the Eyrie as the final rebuild).
The final "fall" you've already seen in AWAKENING.
I don't believe you'll answer who created the huge structures beneath Wyvern: so I'll ask a more vague question: Were the builders humans? (I'm talking mainly about the glowing huge structures we saw in "Shadows of the Past", in case there are more structures down there...)
Humans were involved.
In your mind do you think dragons are evil or good? In the course of the show there are several references to these fantasy creatures. In the Gargoyles world are there any good dragons or only evil ones. Because in the episode "Pendragon" the stone dragon seems to be bad. It was only a stone dragon. However, is there a race of dragons like gargoyle or are they only a species of fantasty creatures?
The stone dragon in "Pendragon" was a magical construct. Or at any rate it was brought to a semblance of life by magic. It wasn't truly alive. And I don't consider it a true dragon. Nor do I consider it evil. It was "programmed" to perform a specific function. To test for the one true king.
I'm not going to confirm or deny the existance of real dragons in the gargoyles universe, but if you've watched the series, you'll know thematically that I would never define an entire species, gargoyle, fae, human or dragons (if there are dragons) as either good or evil. To quote Goliath, "There is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike."
Nothing is one thing. Let alone an entire species.
Dear Greg, some questions on the First First Race:
1) What was the nature of this ancient, pre-Gargoyle race? Organic like humanity? also organic but symbiotic with nature like the Gargates? MAgical like the fae?
2) Could you hint on why this race died out? Just roughly..war, disease, etc?
3) Does the arrival of the Gargoyles or Fae have anything to do with the passing of this race?
4) Is this race actually dead or gone away?
1. I'm not sure how to answer this without giving too much away. Which probably gives too much away right there.
In the Dark Ages would Demona and Desdemona be good friends?
I just read the post where you said the long term chances for getting a Gargoyles series back on the air were 'good to very good'. Since you've worked on CGI shows now, do you think a future Gargoyles show would benefit from being CGI, or would you prefer traditional animation?
It would depend on the show.
I think G2158 would be perfect for CGI. But I'd hate to do Dark Ages in CGI, though maybe not for the reasons you think.
1. How long ago did Gargoyles started helping humans? Did
it started before 900 A.D? If so why aren't there pictures/paintings of Gargoyles on anicent human artifacts or whatever(ex. cave paintings, egyptian art)?
Who says there aren't?
In the gargoyles bible for the first season you had made mention of the existence of a 'very wise man' who first made an alliance with gargoyles building his castle of a gargoyle rookery and who ushered in the golden age of gargoyle-human relations...
Is this still how you picture it happening? The existence of a specific 'very wise man' was intriguing to me - is he just a generic figure, or someone whose name we would recognize? (I have my own idea on the subject ofcourse but I refrain from suggesting it in case it's considered a story-idea)
I was being generic in the bible on purpose to simplify things. Honestly, I don't think I ever really thought there was just one person who did that. The world was too big a place and there wasn't any internet back then to facilitate communication. So that "wise man" was a place holder in my mind for a number of intelligent humans and gargoyles who made multiple alliances over multiple centuries in multiple places.
One such alliance of "wise men" was the alliance formed between Hudson and Malcolm, which was brokered by Robbie.
Another alliance was that formed between Xanatos and Demona, brokered by Owen, with a little help from Brooklyn, Mary and Finella behind the scenes.
It is me again. What was the name of the Captian of the guard of Castle Wyvern, and why was he more kind and respectful to the Gargoyles than everyone else? It seemed as though he was closer to them than the humans.
I think by now the Captain's first name is fairly obvious to anyone who has read the old archives. But because that may still be a mystery to a few people here's a
The Captain's first name is Robbie. And he was the peasant and childhood friend of Prince Malcolm.
(By the way, Robbie was my original name for Tom a.k.a. the Guardian. Michael Reaves changed the name to Tom in his script for Awakening, Part One. I never knew why. But that's why I decided to use the name for the Captain in my unfinished "fan fiction" A TALE OF THREE BROTHERS, or whatever it was called.)
Robbie had a tough young life spent mostly in service to the upper class. His reward was ridicule -- generally over his gargoylesque appearance. He identified with Goliath and the Gargoyles.
Who was it that named Goliath, and when was he given a name?
Are you asking about within the world of the show or in our Disney offices?
If the former, I think the answer to that is Prince Malcolm around 971 A.D.
If the latter, I think I named Goliath in 1992 or '93. But I'm not sure.
Hope you're alright and survived the GWT well. ;)
Here's my question: it's about the aging of Gargoyles. We all know they live longer than humans, but e.g. in "Awakening", the whole Clan Wyvern is seen, but there's no Gargoyles as old as Goliath and Angela look in "Grief". Do they die fighting before they get that old, or do they never after all?
Thank you for your time!
In the Dark Ages, it was rare that a gargoyle lived into old age. It was a violent time. But also, lets remember that Wyvern had a clan of about 40 gargoyles and beasts. We didn't get to see them all. We barely saw a quarter of them.
Hi mr. Weisman. Here's one quickie:
For what reason the Archmage was banished?
Thank you for your time.
Forgive me if this has been answered before, but does the Magus have a name or is he just generally known by his title?
In "Long Way to Morning" a young Demona/Angel gasped at a carving of a man (I'm guessing the Archmage) implaing a gargoyle that looks suspiciously like her. What does this represent?
To some extent you've answered your own question, but there are layers beneath layers at Wyvern. I haven't scratched the surface.
It's my understanding that you pitched both DARK AGES and GARGOYLES 2158 to CBS and that then CBS did away with it's Saturday Morning schedule and staff thus killing off further interest in either shows. But now that CBS has decided to restore animated shows to it's Saturday Morning schedule, do you think it might be possible to re-pitch those two shows to them?
I never pitched G2158 to CBS, because everyone I knew there was booted before I got the chance.
And none of them are back, so the idea that the executives (Judy Price, specifically) who asked to see G2158 would now be interested again, since policy has changed somewhat (though not exactly as you have described it above) doesn't follow. Judy is still gone. Disney still owns Gargoyles and now they own ABC. So I don't see Gargoyles appearing on another network anytime soon.
I've heard that when you pitched DARK AGES to CBS they suggested instead pitching a future based series instead. Was that the first time you started to think about GARGOYLES 2158 or did you previously have a developed idea of what the Gargoyles future would be like?
I can't deny that CBS' suggestion was the first time I really DEDICATED thought to a specific future. (It was after that conversation, that I nailed down 2158 as the year of the setting for example.) But some of the material that I had planned for the show, had already been racing around in my head. The Nokkar stuff in particular. The Demona stuff. The children of Angela and Broadway.
But it was more amorphous, timeline-wise.
In the 'ONCE UPON A TIME...' segments you've done, we've seen why Malcolm would need to ally himself with a Gargoyle clan. But why would Hudson want to ally himself with Malcolm?
You mentioned that in DARK AGES Demona would be known as Angel and that the Coldtrio would be known as Othello, Desdemona, and Iago. But what would Hudson's mate be know as?
Demona would be known as Angel, but I had not (and have not) decided for sure what the Coldtrio would be known as. Using the Othello/Desdemona/Iago names has always made life easier as behind-the-scenes shorthand, but I still don't know whether I'd use them "in story".
Thus any decision on what to call Hudson's mate, would be predicated on what I was doing with the whole name question. Which is to say, I haven't decided if she has any name at all, let alone what it is.
I've heard from Gathering Reports on the DARK AGES presentation you gave that this spin-off's main characters would be mainly limited to Goliath, Hudson, The Trio, The Coldtrio, Prince Malcolm, The Archmage and Demona who would be known as "Angel". But I haven't heard any mention at all of Hudson's mate. WOuldn't she have been a major character in at least the first season of DARK AGES?
The word I'd argue with is "limited".
Let me put it this way, the Dark Ages pitch clearly shows Hudson as the lead character, with Goliath, "Angel" and Prince Malcolm playing important supporting rolls.
Iago and the Archmage are presented as villains. Othello, Desdemona and the trio are given cameos.
But I certainly never said that the series would be limited to these characters.
As to Hudson's mate, she would certainly appear -- in flashback at least. heh heh heh
At the first Gathering you had the BAD GUYS Leica reel, at 98 you had the NEW OLYMPIANS pitch, this year it was Dark Ages. What else can we expect for Gatherings in the future?
That would be telling.
In VOWS did Iago still have an allience of sort with the Archmage?
You mean at that time? Yes. I think so.
Will you continue the story of the three brothers sometime soon? (When we last left the tale Hudson was to make an appearance, if I recall correctly)
Maybe after I catch up with the rest of the questions here. (It feels like August 24th has been going on forever.)
At the Gathering you showed the Dark Ages pitch showing that Iago would've been allied with the Archmage. We know that Demona was his apprentace, but what does Iago have to offer him?
How did you get Tom Wilson and Sheena Easten for the show? Did they come to you, did you call them?
Tom auditioned for one or more of the Trio. He wasn't right, but I really liked him, and I suggested him to Jamie Thomason when we created Matt.
I am now a HUGE Tom Wilson fan. I created the role of Pete Costas in MAX STEEL with Tom in mind. (Originally it was a bigger role, but the WB cut it back. He's still great in it though.) And I think the work he's doing on NBC's FREAKS & GEEKS is brilliant. He does so much with so little. Taking a cliche that we've seen a hundred times before (remember Robert Picardo in THE WONDER YEARS) and investing it with so much humanity. I can't tell you how great I think he is. Someone should really give this guy his own live action show.
As for Sheena, she was my original choice for Princess Katharine. She wasn't available and Kath Soucie who I had never worked with before was terrific. But Sheena was always in my head to give something to. Finella seemed a great opportunity. So we brought her in. She was great. So we brought her back. She was astounding as Molly/Banshee, so we brought her back again. I was prepared to build the entire BAD GUYS series around her and Jim Cummings (with some help from Jeff Bennett, Jim Belushi and William Devane) but I couldn't sell it. I tried to cast her in as Molly McGrath in Max Steel, but again she wasn't available.
But I'd work with either Tom or Sheena again, anyday.
1.What is the real name of the Archmage?
2.Who named Goliath?
3.We know Bruno is the leader of the Commando. Do you have names for the rest of the Commandoes?
1. Don't know.
2. Prince Malcolm.
Would you accept with the assessment that the portrayal of Bodhe throughout 'City of Stone' was that of a spineless coward? (doesn't come to his friend's or even young daughter's aid - gives Gruoch to Gillecomgain - suggests that Macbeth surrenders - suggest that he murders child Canmore) and so on...
I had a lot of contempt for Bodhe. Which may be unfair. Who knows what the historical Bodhe was like? I may have slandered him worse than Shakespeare slandered Macbeth.
But when you just now (back in July) called him a spineless coward, it made me balk. And the reason is that I just saw City, Part IV again recently. (The first episode my grandmother ever saw. All she kept talking about was how attractive Macbeth was.) And Bodhe has a moment when he gives Macbeth's crown to Luach... It suggests to me that maybe late (too late) in life, Bodhe had a change of heart. I like to think that he died a good death, by his grandson's side, fighting for kith, kin and country. (I know. I'm a sap. But I just hate two dimensional characters.)
Nice of you to remember me, during yer all-night "rant" session...Anyho, here's my questions:
1) What year did Hudson hatch?
2) When exactly was Castle Wyvern built? Demona mentioned,
"That these cliffs were our homes, long before the Humans'"
3)How many eggs can a female Gargoyle lay, at one time?
4) When a female Gargoyle goes into "heat", does she give
off a scent, or something?
5) AND, FINALLY, just where did Thom get his tattoo???
1. 878 A.D.
2. Which time?
4. I'm sure she does.
5. Los Angeles... (And I don't have a clue what you're hinting about.)
Also, I should have blown off questions 3-5, cause they're on different topics. But they were short, so you got lucky.
Hi Greg, I got another question here.
Did the Archmage ever come into conflict with Roman Catholic Church? One would get the feeling that practicing the black arts would get him burnt at the stake or at least ex-communicated.
It's certainly possible, but keep in mind he was largely operating some distance from where the Church's worldly power held much sway.
How the heck was castle Wyvern built in as few as four years? (Since construction hadn't started in 971 but it was fully built in 975)
Long story, but there were ruins, a foundation, lots of help from gargoyles and the Arch-Mage, etc. Lots can happen in four years.
Are you planning on writing any more of "Once upon a time there were three brothers"?
If so; Could you do so relatively soon?
But not now. I'm totally swamped.
See my next rambling...
Hi Greg! Will you please tell us: 1) the story behind how the Pheonix Gate ended up in Elena's dowry, and/or 2) The identity of the 5th UltraPack member?
1. No. Not in the mood.
2. As this question is on a completely separate topic, you'll have to resubmit it as a separate post.
Better luck next time.
Thanks Greg for ansering my quistions
If the Dark ages was ever made would we see alot of Hudson's rookery mates. And Goliaths and Demonas rookery sibblings and also the trio rookery sibblings. And also would some of them been some of the main chacters?
Goliath, Demona, Desdemona, Iago and Othello would all have been major characters. Along with Hudson.
The Trio would have been supporting character. I'm not saying we wouldn't have seen more of their siblings, but that age group would not have been the focus.
I'm sure we'd have met other gargoyles eventually.
Oops.. I thought of another one.. hee hee ;-)
Ok... now, we know that in 994, the Wyvern Clan was almost completely wiped out (with the exception of Goliath, Demona, etc.), and you said that Demona lead a clan of stragglers from other broken Scotish clans. I also remember someone asking 'Approximately how many gargoyles are alive today?" and you said about 400 and there are gargoyles all over the world. Ok.. now for the actual question, if there are gargoyles all over the world in the past as well as the present, what happened to them? We know the Wyvern clan was destroyed, but that doesn't really explain what happened to the gargoyles in another part of the world. Was there like a disease that occured that swept over all the world that decimated their race (sort of like the plauge did in Europe to humans)? Or were most of the clans at one point betrayed the way the Wyvern clan was, or some other reason?
Most were destroyed by humans.
Hiya! First of all i'd like to say that you have made an excellent series, congrats on the great work. Ok...I'm a first-timer but I have read the archives so I'll be careful not to ask anything that I can remember already being asked.
1) Why is it that it took Goliath so long to finally except Angela as his daughter but it didn't take Demona very long at all? infact, it seemed as though she had completely excepted Angela as hers, not even asking about the other members of the rookery. Any reason for this?
2) If you had to pick one, which would you say is the most truly Evil villain on the show? (The one who is bad merely to see people suffer or something)
3) Since what biologic ages would you say that Goliath and Demona were a couple?
Well.. although I've been itchin' to do this for so long but wasn't able to because it had been down, I can't remember any of the questions I had lined up... oh well.. I'll save them for another day i suppose.
Now to answer my first question of ASK GREG - The Next Generation.
1. Goliath was very concerned about playing favorites. Angela, to his mind, was way too concerned about him as her BIOLOGICAL father. To his upbringing, that showed bad taste. Of course, she was raised differently. Once Diane Maza pointed out to Goliath that Angela was the only daughter in the vicinity, Goliath lept at the chance to be her dad. It's not that he didn't love her, but he was a novice father and he didn't want to screw up.
Demona's motivations, as usual, were more complicated. Assuming Sevarius filled her in about Angela sometime between "Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning", Demona had time to plan an "attack" on her daughter, or at least on her daughter's loyalties. As usual, Demona is her own worst enemy. She initially saw Angela as an opportunity, not a child. By the time she realized how important Angela truly was to her, it was all but too late.
2. Gee... Did we have any of those? I guess Hyena, Jackal and Wolf sorta qualify. Proteus was pretty nasty. Yeah. Maybe Proteus.
3. Don't have my timeline here with me, so I can't pin it down exactly. But by 971 they were already falling for each other, so that should give you an idea...