A Station Eight Fan Web Site
1) If and when you get to do tose Gargoyle Episodes and Spinoffs do you plan to do crossovers like the following:
2) Would you still include the Previously On Gargoyles segments when necessary?
1. 2158(revised) and TimeDancer, definitely.
Dark Ages and TimeDancer, probably.
Pendragon/Bad Guys. Probably, eventually.
Bad Guys/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Pendragon/Bad Guys - Eventually.
I asked this before but seems to have gotten lost, so I decided to repost it:
1) What would the relationship between Iago and Demona have been like in the Dark Ages? After all Demona was the Archmages' apprentice, but Iago was allied with him, so would he look down on her? In HIGH NOON, he calls her 'sister', but thats because he doesn't know that it is her fault he is dead and that she is now an enemy of Goliath.
Also would he hate her, in Dark Ages, because she was in love with Goliath and was friends with Desdemona and Othello?
2) Did Goliath etc, learn of Demona's apprenticeship with The Archmage?
3) If the answer to (2) is yes, then how would Goliath react?
Did you know when you were making "Awakening" that the Magus had that hopeless love for Princess Katharine? I ask this because I felt that that element of his character made it all the more clear why he went utterly berserk against the gargoyles when he thought that she was dead.
Yes, I knew.
Did Iago ever have a mate in the 10th century?
Or at any rate, not that I know of right now.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but in Castle Wyvern (994), were there only four generations in the Clan?
The oldest - Hudson
The middle - Goliath, Demona, Iago, Desdemona and Othello
The yougest - Brooklyn, Lexington and Broadway
The rookery - The eggs (Angela, Gabriel etc)
Of course there were other gargoyles in each generation but I don't know their names (none of them have any names anyway, except Goliath, in 994.)
But, anyway, were there any other generations in the clan like an older one or one in between the eggs and the Trio's generation.
Each generation should have a ten year age gap(biologically).
The Trio are 18 (biologically) in 994
Goliath is 28 (biologically) in 994
Hudson is around 50 (biologically) in 994
So shouldn't there be a generation between Goliath and Hudson, and a generation between Brooklyn and Gabriel?
You're wrong. I don't have my timeline with me, but there's AT LEAST two generations between Hudson and Goliath. (Hudson wasn't fifty in 994.)
And you've forgotten Bronx's generation, between Brooklyn and Gabriel.
You've forgotten. I never did.
Hi Greg. Here are some questions about the Wyvern (Scotland) area: 1) You mentioned before that the area was huanted "monstly" by Hakon and the Captain. Who else haunted it? 2a) Who constructed the rune-covered temple-ish structure in the Archmage's cave? 2b) If you don't want to be specific, were they human? 2c) Do the ruins in this area have anything to do with the name "Wyvern"? 3) By our scores in the contest, I think it's pretty much a given that Wyvern will be a location for a future clan. Will these ruins be a significant reason for a new clan starting up here?
2a. Not saying now.
2b. I don't want to be specific at this time.
2c. The ruins? Sort of.
3. I refuse to confirm the basic hypothesis of this question until after the contest has been won. (Which is probably gonna take years at this rate.)
1) How long did it take for the New Olympians to develop their technology to the level seen in New Olympians?
2) In any respects are any of the three races involved in the Space-Spawn war less advanced than what we've seen of Earthly technology? Meaning is there anything in particular technologically Earth has that the aliens don't have? Like say, Sevarius' genetic manipulation, the NO's anti-gravity, Xanatos' Matrix..
3) How advanced were Gargoyles technologically by the time humanity came along? Stone Age-tech?
4) Castle Wyvern is a large stone-built fortress that looks like it was built using construction techniques and concepts that didn't appear in Europe until after the Crusades(I think). So why, in the Gargoyles universe, are the Europeans of 994 more advanced than in history? What in-universe explanation is there?
5) King Arthur of the 6th century seems to wear at least partial plate armour that didn't appear until the 1400's? what's the in-universe explanation here?
1. Until 1996.
2. Generally, they are more advanced than us. But I won't rule out the possiblility that we might not be able to surprise them.
3. Not very. It was unnecessary to their life-styles. Humans are a much more adaptable race, for better and for worse.
4. In universe, I don't need an explanation if I don't feel like dealing. They just are. Perhaps less was forgotten. Perhaps magic was involved. Perhaps our knowledge is flawed.
5. He had access to sources of Armor that most people didn't. We assume that these things didn't EXIST until later. All we KNOW is that they weren't prevalent until later.
Story Editor: Michael Reaves
Written by Marty Isenberg & Robert N. Skir
I just watched "Legion" again. Time to Ramble.
From the memo I posted earlier this week, you'll see that the never used on screen names of Othello, Desdemona and Iago were my idea. But I've always wondered if that's the case. The outline that Marty and Bob wrote immediately prior to that memo had all the Othello elements very, very present in the story. All they didn't do was NAME the characters. I always wondered whether they and/or Michael had the Othello story specifically in mind, consciously or un-, and I just capitalized on it.
The Goldencup Bakery Building, which semi-secretly houses a defense department hi-tech research and development installation is modeled after the Silver Cup Bakery Building -- which actually exists in Brooklyn (as I recall). That Building was trashed in the original HIGHLANDER movie in the final battle between Connor and the Kragen (who was played by a pretty damned horrific Clancy Brown). Small world.
I was always worried that the whole Othello, Desdemona, Iago, Cassio (whoops, I mean Goliath) backstory was a bit vague in this episode. Did anyone have problems getting it?
I don't think I'd like to be one of those Goldencup Guards. Coldstone punches one of them out. That's gotta hoit. He just seems fairly unstoppable in that Xanatos-program controlled sequence. I like how that plays.
Matt says to Elisa: "You never let me drive." My wife's reaction: "Was that in homage to me?" My wife, you see, almost always drives when we're together. She gets carsick when anyone else drives. And I don't much care.
Speaking of Matt, we've got that line about him spending six months reading RECAP manuals to justify why a normal detective would be in charge of RECAP in the first place. Just trying to avoid either adding a superfluous character and/or making the situation seem artificial.
Another appearance of the Scarab Corp. Logo, even though Scarab is never mentioned by name. Oh, well...
Coldstone flees the Goldencup. Goliath and Lex pursue, and Coldstone attacks them. Then he immediately stops, when he sees it's Goliath. The problem I always had with that scene is that the lighting made it obvious that it was Goliath from moment one. (Not just to us, but to Coldstone.) If Goliath had been in shadows, it would have played better.
Minutes later Lex asks Goliath if it's wise to take Coldstone into their home: "He hasn't always been your friend." This was, theoretically, a reference not simply to the most recent attack, nor even only to the events of "Reawakening", but also a reference to the pre-Massacre backstory of the actually non-existent love triangle (or square or pentagram if you include Demona) that caused Goliath and Othello to fight way back when. Lex remembers those days too. Othello was always a bit of a hot-head.
I love Goliath's response: "Without trust there can be no clan." And I love that this is part of a Lex/Goliath exchange. It fits in perfectly with the message they taught each other in "Thrill of the Hunt". Gotta take some chances on occasion. Or else you'll always be alone. It's an anti-Demona mentality. Or rather a mentality that is strikingly un-Demona-esque.
From the moment Coldstone premiered in "Reawakening" I knew (that if we survived to a second season) we'd discover that he was created from three Gargoyles. Tried to work that conceptually into the design more, but we never quite achieved it. So basically that becomes something that the audience has to take on trust.
Which brings me to the title "Legion". It's a one-word title which usually is a tip-off that it's one of mine. I know it's a biblical reference. Some possessed guy with a demon/devil inside who goes by the name "Legion". But that's not actually where I got it. When I was a kid, I saw this tv movie based on Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN. It starred Michael Sarazan or Chris Sarandon. (I always used to mix those two guys up.) It was trying to present a more realistic believable version of the Frankenstein story. I was pretty young. And I don't remember too much about it. I do remember that I was supposed to be asleep -- past my bedtime in the days before my parents gave up and I began going to bed long after they were asleep. But instead of being asleep, I was watching it, in the dark, with the volume turned as far down as possible, me sitting right by the set, so I could flip it off if I heard my parents' door opening. (This was long before remote controls were common.) Anyway, the one scene that I really remember is a scene where they put the Monster under hypnosis. The voices of all the people who "donated" body parts begin to speak. And one of them quotes the "Legion" thing from the bible. But I didn't know that. That is I didn't know back then that he was quoting anyone or anything. It just seemed like a very powerful, poetic and humanly true statement. So it wasn't until college that I read that passage in the bible and realized where it was from. Can anyone cite the actual quote? I can't remember where exactly it's from, and I don't feel like searching right now.
Anyway, all this is relevant because Coldstone was ALWAYS our Frankenstein character from the "IT'S ALIVE!" moment to the "Legion" stuff here.
Coldstone calls Hudson "Mentor". That's a "name" I've been long considering for Hudson's "designation" in the DARK AGES prequel spin-off.
Coldstone shoots Goliath at point blank range. Goliath gets up unharmed. A far cry from what happened to G in "Long Way to Morning." Now in the outline and script, it says that Coldstone uses his "concussion cannon" as opposed to his laser cannon. But nothing in the as-aired episode makes that distinction. And so it just looks irresponsible to me. Like suddenly we're saying violence has no repercussions. Did that bother anyone else?
I love the dark comedy of Coldstone going bonkers at Ellis Island. Fighting with himself. I think Michael Dorn did a terrific job playing all four aspects of CS's personality. Which of you figured out what when? I'd like to know.
The Trio has the Recap visor. Now all they have to do is find Goliath, Hudson and Coldstone. How will they do that? "Three guesses?" A very elegant way to explain how in a huge city, they're able to locate three gargoyles.
Kenner's Coldstone toy is a lot of fun. With it's window into Coldstone's soul. And the spinner that allows any of the four personas to take over at random.
Xanatos doesn't even appear until the VERY END of Act Two. And it's not even really Xanatos, just a program designed by him. Normally, I'd say that wasn't playing fair. But I feel like his presence was obvious all-along. (And did David personally design that program. Or did he just put his stamp on it, management-style?)
There's a moment when Goliath, thrilled to see his rookery sister again, hugs Desdemona. She is immediately annoyed, because she knows that hug is prone to misinterpretation. It's a nice little touch in the animation.
I always wondered what if anything Demona thought about that ancient conflict way back when. Was Iago playing her as well? Trying to make her jealous of Desdemona? I think maybe he did try. But wouldn't it be cool if she didn't credit it for a second. If she just knew intuitively that Desdemona didn't present any threat at all to her relationship with G? Because, I feel the opposite is true. That Demona knew intuitively that Elisa DID present a threat. Say what you want for Demona, but her subconscious knows her man.
I love that moment where BOTH Iago and Xanatos are whispering in Othello's ears. Poor slob never stood a chance.
We've got a nice little Xanatos tag in this one too. Certainly not a doozy as in "Leader" or "Metamorphosis", but it's got a nice little kick to it, I think. And that's THREE episodes in a row. X had been busy.
And then I love the last beat back at the clock tower. Goliath has confiscated Coldstone's body, to keep it safe and "among friends" should he/she ever wake up again. I wanted to keep it in the corner from that point until "High Noon". Always present and visible. We didn't for two reasons. First, we figured it would be a bit confusing. The Batcave can get away with the giant penny and other souvenirs from Batman's cases, because there ARE multiple souvenirs. But just having one immobile gargoyle in the background, as cool and creepy as that is, would be horribly distracting for any audience member who missed this one particular episode. And second, we had our tier system. What if "Legion" wasn't ready as scheduled. We couldn't have Coldstone sitting around the clock tower in later episodes that we'd be forced to air first. Talk about disconcerting. So we invented a back room. Where Coldstone, the Grimorum, the Gate and eventually the eye could be stored.
Comments welcome, as usual...
Hello I'm a really big fan of Gargoyles, I watch the show all the time.
Well here's my Q.
Is there anywhere on the web that your spin-offs are in print, or are they only at the gatherings?
Pretty much only at the Gathering. But you can get a lot of info on them by checking the following ASK GREG archives...
A sort of "ramble-reply" to "Long Way Till Morning".
I'll have to confess that the only part of my "first time I saw it" response to this episode that I now remember (other than my delight at another medieval sequence - the 984 scenes in this case) was that I initially believed that Prince Malcolm would actually succumb to the Archmage's poisoned dart, and that this was how he'd died. (It was obvious that he must have died at some point before the 994 events in "Awakening", naturally, since Katharine's ruling Wyvern by then). So the fact that, in the succeeding flashbacks in this episode after the initial one, he does live in the end, surprised me.
I certainly agree with you on the Katharine-and-Malcolm scenes; I'd also felt on my own before reading that ramble that Malcolm was unwittingly planting the seeds of bigotry in his daughter when he used the gargoyles as a means of frightening her to be good. (Kind of reminds me of something I'd read once in either "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" about a policeman protesting the way that a few parents use police as "bogeymen" to scare their children into being good similarly). Indeed, Prince Malcolm's judgement really does come across in this episode as a bit on the poor side beyond Katharine; he's overly confident about the Archmage no longer being a threat, while Hudson correctly recognizes that the sorcerer could return for revenge - and indeed, the Archmage does.
Demona's ambitious streak in the 984 scene reminds me a bit of Lady Macbeth similarly urging Macbeth to dispose of Duncan in Shakespeare's play - which, when you stop to think over her future, is rather appropriate. (Indeed, in "Sanctuary", Demona actually becomes "Lady Macbeth" in a literal sense - and if you ask me, she fits the Shakespearean character far better than Gruoch ever did).
I must admit that I've always had a certain fondness for Hudson, and he certainly comes across as a sympathetic figure here. One can't help but admire his dogged persistence in keeping Goliath safe from Demona in the present day. He may think of himself as all washed up, but he still does his duty in protecting Goliath against a very determined adversary.
Two scenes I particularly like in this episode, both near the end: the sight of Demona slowly approaching through the graveyard in the distance, and the bit where she emerges from behind the stone angel - both positively creepy.
This was a great story, I thought.
And I agree with your Demona/Lady Macbeth assessment. A lot of that was intentional.