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A short response to Avator -- ~mammal~ red blood cells have no DNA, but gargoyles are not mammals. Other vertebrates have red blood cells with DNA in them.
Hmmm... I'm looking smarter all the time, aren't I?
Genetics, from Gargoyles in 1994 to now!
This isn't so much a question as general very late reply to a few things I've seen here that had been posted years ago. (about cloning, and how it was done in gargoyles)
I've noticed people mentionned dr. Severino Antinori as being some sort of real-life version of our catroon "friendly genetecist". It's interesting to notice that Severino actually said he'd have a first human clone done around 2002 and then said it wasn't true. The guy actually seems to be generally creepy and even fake-starved himself in his homeland to protest the refusal of the country to allow human cloning. Either way, it can only be assumed that this fellow who really was a genycologist to begin with (and not a molecular biologist), never did a human clone. But the fact is that he's interestingly as "scary" in his actions and words as Savarius.
To this day, few can say they really succeeded at cloning humans. Dr. Zavos is probably the only one with some credibility. But that aside, onto results...
While it's impossible to say how "well" cloning would work with humans, it's well known that it doesn't work much if at all for primates and other animals like dogs. Yes, it's been done with cats, horses, cows, mice, mules, etc--- but here's the catch. Most cloning issues have to do with the mother (the one who will be pregnant with the clone). For example, dogs only can breed twice a year and it's impossible to change that. So timing this with the making of cloned embryos is just too far out. WIth gargoyles I could see an even bigger issue here--- but Savarius luckily managed to create "in vitro" type uterus environment. I think just this would solve a whole lot in terms of cloning difficulty for gargates (or even humans or primates or canines) So already, even more than 14 years after the episodes were written, it's interesting to still see some credibility in the story of the gargoyle clones. Of course we're far from replicating the environment of a uterus and it is known that embryos implanted -elsewhere- in a creature sadly ends into the embryos becomming aggressive cancers instead of lifeforms of their own.
No matter how clones are of have been done to this day, there's always one element that is required, the ovocyte. Which means a female subject is -always- necessary for cloning (at least so far). So unless, again, Savarius had broken the mold... then it seems plausible that he could have used some from Demona. Of course that'd mean putting her under and cutting her open to get them. (would she have been willing?) And it would also mean that all the clones would have her mitochondrial genome (as a perfect clone can only be done with females, males inherit the mitochondrias from whoever the ovocyte was taken from). Now the mitochondrial genome has very important yet small things.. it basically commands your cellular breathing. What's funny about this though is that IF that's how it was made, then Thailog and Demona shared at least.. part of a genome ;)
While this is all speculations, perhaps it could explain why Bronx wasn't cloned--- because they didn't have access to garg beast ovocytes because... no female was around! (how conveniently credible again!)
As a last point... which is slightly negative though, is the usage of blood to make clones. Now the best cells one can get their hands on are stem cells, to make a cloning procedure. From embryos this works great... from adults it's still better than nothing. (when cloning females though they were able to take cells from part of ovaries that seems to give the best result so far) Adult creatures still have stem cells around, some in the spinal cord for example... and even some in the skin! So it's sort of great that "Thailog" material came from a robot scratching Goliath. It can be assumed they used the skin material and not the blood... but sadly this can't apply to the robot musquitos that they used for the others.
Now why is that--- well red blood cells simply have no nucleus so they have no genome DNA. At all. And while you can still have white blood cells... which have DNA... well those simply give -awful- result for cloning so far. It's been done, yes, but with less than 0.3% even on animals easily cloned. Now I'm not sure how much blood those musquitos took but it seems very unlikely that they found enough material to even do a successful cloning with white blood cells in there.
Now with that said, and forward to the comic, it seems Thailog took consierable quantities of blood from each gargoyle again for genetic issues.... which would probably give a better yield than just a drop or two. Still we can say they got skin cells from it to work with... I like to think, in the light of this, that there's some sort misconception about how blood carries "life" in itself... and while this falls into psychology it's sort of silly since we know that "breeding" has little to do with blood, unless you're a vampire ;)
Seeing what another person wrote on the subject, I think it is interesting to note the difference between clones and clonee. It's true "calico" female cats cloned didn't always have the color of their cloned parent. That's because female calico cats have their color on the X chromosome and they have two X chromosomes like humans... and that randomly one X is inactivated at some point thus resulting sometimes in patched colors and sometimes not. This has nothing to do with DNA on it's own, but rather is something that happens well after an embryo is made. I'm fairly sure this means cloned -male- cats would effectivly be the same color than their "father". And unless gargoyles also have their colors on a simili-X chromosome in the same way humans and cats function, then there's no reason the clone would be another color except through epi-genetics (which genes activate and which don't or chromosome inactivation etc) or... as you said... something to do with Savarius' tampering. (So I think that explanation still holds really well and is probably the best)
But what I really enjoyed most of all in the show is how clones were really perceeved as nothig more than twin brothers (or a child) whose mentality had nothing to do with the person whose genes they inherited, but really with their education. Even to this day there's so many people trying to trick the population (specially those with money to waste) in thinking that their clones will carry their spirits, which is plain out ridiculous....
So all this was my two cents, or maybe two dollars ;) To say that I really love how cloning was tackled in the show, it's far more realistic than most would have had it.
I'm glad... since of course I know NOTHING.
I asked this question before. You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah having an egg. "Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help."
This suprised me as Thailog doesn't strike me as the parenting type. Does Thailog want his own family? As a clone i found it odd that he would have insisted on procreating naturally. Why do you think this is, deep down does he consider himself something lesser than other gargoyles as a clone?
I meant Thailog would have insisted on Delilah being CAPABLE of laying eggs.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
December 31st...
1994
Anton Sevarius begins to clone Goliath.
1995
The Magus passes away inside the Hollow Hill.
1996
[withheld]
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
November 28th...
1995
Elisa Maza, Broadway and Lexington are lured to Long Island after midnight by a false tip. They are assaulted by a creature that appears to be Goliath. That morning, mercenaries hired by Anton Sevarius steal a stone Thailog from David Xanatos. After sunset, they deliver their prize to Sevarius on an oil rig just off the coast of Long Island. Not long after, Elisa, Goliath, Broadway and Lex return to Long Island to investigate Goliath's mysterious look-alike. They find a Gen-U-Tech Systems tracking device. Meanwhile, Xanatos receives a ransom call demanding twenty million dollars in exchange for the creature. He and Owen Burnett quickly deduce that Sevarius is behind the gargoyle-napping. At Gen-U-Tech, Lexington and Broadway discover the truth about Goliath's clone Thailog. Meanwhile, in Scotland, Xanatos' security team begins searching for the Loch Ness Monster.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
November 1st...
975
Using the Phoenix Gate, Goliath, Demona, David Xanatos, Petros Xanatos and Fox come back in time from the year 1995. Demona immediately uses the Gate to disappear again. Xanatos saves the life of Princess Elena of Normandy. He is rewarded with a coin, which he gives to the Norman Ambassador, a fellow member of the Illuminati Society. The 1995 Goliath encounters the 975 Hudson. The 975 Demona is studying under the Archmage as his apprentice. He instructs her to steal the Phoenix Gate from Princess Elena, which she does. But then she is confronted by the 1995 Demona and Goliath. After a brief trip for all three to 994, the 975 Demona returns them to her time and winds up on the outs with the Archmage. She breaks the Phoenix Gate in two and gives half of it to the 975 Goliath at the wedding of Malcolm and Elena. Meanwhile, all the 1995 participants return to their own time.
1975
David Xanatos receives an anonymous gift of a medieval coin worth $20 grand. It is the start of his fortune, and was actually sent to David by his 1995 counterpart, via the Illuminati Society from the year 975.
1995
A fully-grown Thailog is released from his maturation chamber and takes up residence at the Eyrie Building. Xanatos receives a letter from the Illuminati Society. It is from himself, sent in the year 975. It explains that he sent himself the medieval coin that was the basis of all his wealth. The letter also explains how he set this all up by turning his wedding to Fox into a time travel excursion to 975.
1996
Xanatos gets a new assignment from Quincy and the Illuminati. Hudson confirms he is a gargoyle to Robbins. Thailog and the clones fight the Manhattan Clan. During the battle, Thailog gets DNA samples from Goliath, Angela, Broadway, Lexington, Elisa, Brooklyn, Hudson and Bronx. Delilah, Malibu, Burbank and Hollywood reject Thailog, but Brentwood chooses to depart with him. Thailog gives the DNA to Sevarius and gains a new personal assistant, Shari. Doctor Sato treats Goliath. Goliath and Elisa declare their love for each other.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
October 31st...
1994
In part because both he and Elisa want to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of Receiving Stolen Property. He will be sentenced to six months in county jail including time served, with every hope that the sentence will be reduced to three months for good behavior.
1995
Xanatos confronts Fox and attempts to get the Eye back from her. She transforms in front of him and escapes. Xanatos intentionally involves Goliath and Elisa in an attempt to manipulate them into helping Fox and retrieving the Eye. Goliath quickly catches on and initially refuses to help. Later that night, the Trio, Goliath, Elisa, Vinnie, Brendan and Margot all attend a Greenwich Village Halloween block party. When the Werefox attacks, Goliath and Elisa agree to help Xanatos save Fox. Together, they manage to remove the Eye from the creature, which reverts to Fox. Goliath takes possession of the Eye.
1996
Matt Bluestone convenes a meeting of the Gargoyle Taskforce (including himself, Elisa, Officers Morgan & Travanti, Detectives Harris & Chung, Margot Yale and Martin Hacker). Hacker has Illuminati meetings with Matt, Xanatos and Castaway. Morgan asks Elisa on a date. After turning him down and spending time with Jason in the hospital prison ward, she goes to the Eyrie. The gargoyles awaken at sunset. Fox has Halloween costumes for Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway and Angela in anticipation of the Masque that Xanatos is throwing later that night. Elisa breaks up with Goliath. Demona recovers the Atlantean crystal that was at the heart of the Praying Gargoyle. In, the Labyrinth, Al is showing Shari around. Goliath and Brooklyn arrive. Brooklyn wants to ask Delilah to the party, but Goliath does instead. Goliath, Brooklyn and Delilah depart. Thailog attacks. Terry Chung, Billy Greene, Susan Greene and Sarah Browne trick-or-treat at Jeffrey Robbins' home, where Hudson and Bronx are visiting. Following Illuminati orders, Xanatos takes Fox and Alexander to a party at the White House. They chat with Ambassador Chung, and David meets Illuminatus Quincy Hemings. Meanwhile, Xanatos' Masque goes on without him at the Eyrie. Attendees include Judge Roebling, Doctor Sato, Brendan, Margot, Lexington, Brooklyn, Angela and Broadway. Elisa and Morgan arrive together, as do Goliath and Delilah. Thailog, having taken the male clones from the Labyrinth, arrives to collect Delilah and stabs Goliath.
1997
Xanatos' probation expires.
Do the other clones resent Brentwood for going with Thailog?
We'll have to ask them.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
October 13th...
1996
When Demona refuses to allow Thailog to kill Angela, he reveals an additional clone: Delilah, created from a combination of Demona and Elisa's DNA. Demona frees Talon, Goliath and the clan. They manage to recapture Fang and take down the clones. But while fighting each other, Demona and Thailog seemingly perish in a fire. Talon offers to take the other clones back to the Labyrinth where he promises to teach them to think for themselves.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
October 12th...
1995
Xanatos acquires the Cauldron of Life and prepares to test it by ordering the construction of a pair of Macbeth robots and a statue of Hudson. He also begins looking for a sword that will match Hudson's to be used with the statue.
1996
Relieving Talon, Goliath takes his shift guarding the Labyrinth prisoners. Thailog busts Demona and Fang out. Talon and Goliath pursue them to Coney Island. Goliath departs and quickly returns with Angela, the Trio and Hudson. All are captured by Fang, Demona, Thailog and his clones: Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank (made from the DNA of Broadway, Lexington, Brooklyn and Hudson, respectively).
Second, could Sevarius clone Bronx. And I know this next one sound's silly but if one was clone do you think he would be named after an area in Los Angeles.
He can now. As for the name... depends on the context, I guess.
This is more a ramble reply to Alex Garg's post, but I definitely think this is a fascinating subject, and could make a great Ask Greg discussion.
Honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone in the Manhattan Clan cares much about any of the clones. Any of them. What was the first thing said when Thailog appeared to perish and the clones had no where to go? "We can't just bring them back to the Clock Tower can we? I mean, they kind of give me the creeps."
Right there, the Manhattan Clan wanted nothing to do with them. Wanted to pretend they didn't exist. Let Talon take them to live in a sewer. Out of sight, out of mind. Not that the reaction is not understandable, it is. I think we'd all be uncomfortable around clones of ourselves made against our will and knowledge. It's a fundamental violation of our individuality.
Did any of the Manhattan Clan go down to see them between "The Reckoning" and "Invitation Only"? I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes. The one time they do go down, they want something. Goliath is following Elisa's request to attempt to date Delilah. Brooklyn... just wants to make a play for the only available female he's aware of. They were down there both for selfish reasons.
So, yeah, all of their talk about free will probably was less for the clones' sake, and more towards the Manhattan Clan's hatred for Thailog. They hate Thailog, so naturally they don't want the clones to be helping him. At this point, do they have any other reason to care?
Lexington's only real concern when Brentwood chooses Thailog is how it makes him [Lexington] look. Not concern for Brentwood's safety, or eventually having to face him as an enemy. Lex thinks it makes *him* look bad.
I know this is a pretty serious indictment of the Manhattan Clan. I love them, they are heroes, there's a lot to admire in each and every one of them. But, they're not saints. Which is fine, they're more interesting this way... if I wanted a group of pure goodie goods, I'd read a Silver Age Justice League of America comic book.
I don't disagree with any of the above, but I would temper it.
Again, I think Angela has an INTEREST in individuality and wouldn't want Delilah blindly following ANYONE. Delilah may have reacted to Angela as if Angela was giving her another order, but I don't think it's hard to see that that was clearly NOT Angela's intent. And if your looking for proof, just check out Angela's relationship with Goliath. She respects him as a leader. As a hero. A legend. She loves him as a father. But check out the World Tour, particularly Sanctuary. She's hardly following G. blindly.
And Goliath... in his slow, deliberate, bleeding-to-death way... had clearly given all this some thought too. He told Thailog that Delilah would not CHOOSE him (i.e. Thailog). He may seem confident of this (perhaps even over-confident), but there's nothing to indicate that Goliath plans to decide FOR her. And he doesn't decide for Brentwood either. There's preference and action. Two different things.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
August 15th...
1996
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
Does Demona have any interest in any of the Clones? They could have been a new clan for her even Delilah after Thailog was presumed dead why did she abandon them so quickly?
Demona is, ironically, quick to declare things, people, plans, etc. a lost cause.
You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah laying an egg, does he want his own offspring?
Did I say that? Where? When?
Hi Greg
I was just wondering why Thailog didn't clone Angela, i know Demona didn't release the bug when she watching her but even still if he could get Eliza's dna without her knowing he could do the same for Angela. If he was expecting Demona to betray him anyway even with Delilah he was at a one "man" disadvantage from a tactical point of view it just would have made more sense for Thailog to clone Angela too.
When would he have gotten Angela's DNA?
You can pinpoint EXACTLY when he got Elisa's, BTW, if you watch the episode carefully.
SPOILERS
Of course, NOW he has everyone's DNA, everyone in the Manhattan Clan, that is.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
July 19th...
1996
Broadway is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA.
1997
Goliath makes a bargain.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
July 16th...
1996
Hudson is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
July 16th...
1996
Lex is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA and then returns to Nightstone Unlimited, where Sevarius and Thailog are preparing clones of all the gargoyles.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
July 15th...
1996
The Manhattan Clan imprisons Demona in the Labyrinth and agrees to help Talon and the Mutates guard her and Fang. Angela takes the first watch. Elisa is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples her DNA. Demona regains consciousness in her cell. Angela introduces herself.
What does Demona think of Delilah?
What do you think she thinks?
What does Elisa think of Delilah? It must be pretty disconcerting to know there's a clone of her and Demona.
As of issue #2 of the comic book, Elisa hasn't seen Delilah in person. But knowing someone like Delilah exists is probably disconcerting enough.
Ah, The Reckoning. With your ramble, you answred one of my most pondered questions!
Anyway, I LOVE this episode. I've never seen it all the way through; I think it is the only episode I've NEVER seen fully (always came in right at the "tin can" line. But you mentioned that it was the fifth last episode, before possesion and HM?
I've always seen it aired AFTER Posession, though all other episodes were in correct oprder.
The Reckoning sets up the relationship between mother and daughter, develops relationships further between Talon and the Gargoyles, and shows us how naieve (SP?) Demona really is.
Demona didn't learn the Thailog was using her, even back in Paris; she still thinks he loves her. But then again Demona has a one-track mind.
I think Demona finally gets it when - enter stage left - Delilah is introduced by Thailog himself.
From what I understand, the idea of the "clan" was sacred back in 990 AD when there were clans in Scotland. Demona has been so messed up over the centuries so much so that if she calls a bunch of botched clones a "clan" then she really has forgotten what a CLAN truely is.
And of course the great delivery: "Ah, but it's a very clever tin can!" What a great line, like you said.
Tim Curry back as sevarious. Another great performance. His voice is so unique. And he does such a good job in the role.
"How many Gargoyles does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" That made for a great contest. And some of the responses were way past funny.
It was quite clever to use Californian names simialr to NY names.
Great episode all around.
P.S. Comic's been sold out everywhere I go. Read it 8 or 9 times. Bought 2 copies. Keep up the great work. Better than the Origianl Journey.
Thanks. The L.A. names actually were a direct result of discussions on the old Disney Afternoon e-mailing list. Someone asked what the names would have been if Xanatos had built his castle in L.A. rather than N.Y. The question fascinated me, and so...
Although I cheated. I think Burbank's name would have been something more like Santa Ana.
Mr. Weisman,
I was looking through the FAQ's and I was reading about Goliath and Elisa's relationship and your plans for them. In regards to the Halloween Double-Date scenario, you said that "Delilah is eager, and for obvious reasons, physically attractive to Goliath." My questions are as follow:
1). Why is Delilah eager? Does she have an attraction to Goliath?
2). If so, how did it develop? I was under the impression that after Talon took her and the other clones into the Labyrinth Delilah and Goliath didn't have much interaction....
Thank you for your time--and, again, Gargoyles is an EXCELLENT series that I eager hope will one day continue in one form or another.
1. Since she was programmed to fall for Thailog, I think she'd find Goliath attractive. I also think she's been a bit at sea since Coney Island.
2. I'm not going into this now, as I hope to put it in the comic book eventually.
Hello, Gargoyles is one of my favorite shows and Deliaih is
one of my favorite characters. I was wondering why in "The Reckoning" Thailog named Elisa's and Demona's clone to be named Deliaih? Does the name have a special meaning? I also
hope that someday you will also mention more about the Thailog/Deliaih reunion.
Well, aside from the obvious biblical reference to a dangerous femme fatale, the name just SOUNDS to me like a combo of Demona and Elisa...
DEMONA
DEMONAL
DEMONLA
DEMOLNA
DEMLONA
DELMONA
DELMONAI
DELMONIA
DELMOINA
DELMIONA
DELIMONA
DELIMONAL
DELIMONLA
DELIMOLNA
DELIMLONA
DELILMONA
DELILMOAN
DELILMAON
DELILAMON
DELILAMONH
DELILAMOHN
DELILAMHON
DELILAHMON
DELILAHMO
DELILAHM
DELILAH
EDLILAH
ELDILAH
ELIDLAH
ELIDLAHS
ELIDLASH
ELIDLSAH
ELIDSLAH
ELISDLAH
ELISDALH
ELISADLH
ELISADL
ELISAD
ELISA
See. I don't know how you missed it. ;)
As to the planned Thailog/Delilah "reunion" I'll just say that I have one planned. That's all I feel like revealing at this time.
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