Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

From watching The Gathering and other episodes with the Children of Oberon in it, and from your reveals on s8, it appears to me that the Third Race have a feudal-like system, with Oberon as the high king (more or less), and others as his subjects or vassals. I think you have said that there are various "subsets," such as the Aesir and the Egyptian gods.

Do these "subsets" or "pantheons" have any political or social reality in Third Race society? What I mean is, are they just convenient catagories for mortals to refer to this or that Child of Oberon as belonging to a mythological category, or are they actual groups who associate(d) with one another as such, who have something political, social, or cultural in common with one another?

Thank you.

MasterGhandalf writes...

Regarding Oberon:

1. Do the Third Race as a whole view Oberon as their most powerful member, or do they follow him for other reasons (royal bloodline, his overthrowing of Mab, etc.) Are there any who might stand a chance of overthrowing him, or would even want to?

2. Is Oberon regarded as a tyrant by his subjects? Obviously neither Puck nor Banshee wanted to go to the Gathering, but what is more general opinion of Oberon's rule?

3. Several of the Third Race are venerated as gods by mortals (such as Anubis and Odin), while Oberon himself, so far as I'm aware, has never been the object of a major religion. Is he at all irritaded by this, or would he even care?

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

I've looked all over the archives and I did not find an answer to this. Once, somebody asked you why Anansi chose to be so big and ungainly, presumably since this form gave him trouble when fighting the gargoyles in "Mark of the Panther." You answered: << He ate a lot and gloried in it, I guess. And changing may not be as easy as you make it sound.>> Reading that, I realized that it has never been established explicitly whether shapeshifting is something that all of the Third Race can do. Anansi himself does shapeshift later, but only after getting stabbed. If it was very easy for him to change into a tiny form and run away, I would expect him to do that once pleading and offering bribes didn't work, instead of sitting there and getting stabbed.
Here's the original question: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3095

So are all of the Third Race able to shapeshift, or just some or most of them?
Are all of them able to assume mortal forms (like Owen), or can just some or most of them do this?
And are they all equally good/skilled/versatile at shapeshifting?

Thank you.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

The question in the last queue about whether Fox and David can vote after getting out of prison, and my own thoughts about the Third Race and Oberon's Law against interfering with mortals, has led me to this question: What does the Law of Oberon prevent and what does it allow, in terms of Oberon's Children participating in human politics? Do Anastasia Renard and Owen Burnett have U.S. citizenship, or if not could they get it if they wanted it? Can they vote? Can they get any more politically active than voting? (Leaving aside whether they actually want to do any of these things.)

Thanks.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Greetings Greg,

I still don't have time to write out my thoughts about Bad Guys, let alone watch and read the Gargoyles medieval flashbacks marathon like I planned. They'll probably have to wait until graduation and winter break. But I still have so many other questions I want to ask you about Gargoyles!

I wonder often about the Third Race in the Gargoyles universe. You have revealed a lot of information about the gargoyles, since obviously they are the focus of the whole series, and less about the Third Race. I wonder how similar to or different from mortals they are, psychologically. The Third Race include the gods of various polytheistic religions, and at least in Greek, Norse, and Egyptian myths, gods are depicted as having pretty human psychology, and the same emotions as human beings. They are also depicted as having cultures very similar to their worshippers. Of course, myths were created by mortals and "few things are accurate." The Third Race also includes beings like the Fair Folk and/or the Fae. In fiction that I have read about Faerie folk, they aren't often depicted as psychologically similar to human beings. For example, in the book "The Moorchild", the Faeries (called Moorfolk) seem quite different from human beings. They raise their children communally, and also seem to entirely lack the emotions of love and hate. They don't even seem to form any emotional ties to one another, perhaps not even what humans would necessarily call friendship. The book convincingly and successfully depicts beings that are, in some ways, very alien from human beings. Other depictions (like in the table-top role-playing game Exalted) make the Fair Folk even more alien.
In the Gargoyles show and comics, gargoyles clearly have a similar psychology to humans: although they have some differences which make them more than just humans with wings, they're pretty similar to us in most ways. They obviously feel love and hate, for example, and although their family relations are structured differently, it seems pretty clear that they love and care about their children, parents, and siblings. I think in a past response you said that none of the races in the Gargoyles Universe are designed to be all that alien, not even the actual aliens, and that it should be possible to relate to all of them with some effort. So far, as individuals, the depictions of the Third Race make them seem more like the gods of myth, not necessarily following human moral ideas and sometimes being whimsical, but having a mostly human-like psychology. But except for the glimpses of the relationship between Titania and Oberon, and Titania's relationship to her human family (when however she was mostly in a human body, presumably full of human hormones and neurotransmitters) there wasn't a lot of interaction between the Third Race in the show, and obviously their society wasn't the focus.

So the main questions in my mind about this subject are these:

1. Do the Children of Oberon have the same emotional range as human beings, including emotions such as love, hate, shame, compassion, gratitude, jealousy, indignation, etc.?

2. How much detail of their long lives do they remember? Do they generally have better memory than humans, or is their memory only about as good as a human's? Does someone as old as Oberon have only a fuzzy recollection of things that happened 3000 or so years ago, or does he remember 3000 years ago (such as the events of Midsummer Night's Dream) as clearly as he remembers 30 years ago? Humans (and presumably gargoyles) have limited neurons in the brain for forming memories and synapses, and synapses that are not used regularly are trimmed away to make "room" for more useful connections, leading to loss of memories and skills that are less frequently used. But since Children of Oberon are made of pure magic, I don't think they even have neurons.

3. In their long lives, do the Third Race tend to get bored any more or less often than mortals do, or about as often?

Thanks!

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Greetings Greg,

I have another question about the New Olympians, halflings, and the Law of Oberon (related to what Random Fan asked about the Law). In the Gathering, Oberon showed that his law is applied and interpreted differently for different halflings. Fox is too human because she has grown up with a mortal life, so the Law applies to her as to a mortal. But Titania has permission to interfere in Alex's life, perhaps because he is newborn and has not yet grown up to be human, but has the potential to be or become something else.

How does Oberon interpret and enforce his law in relation to the New Olympians? Are (or were, before the Gathering) the Third Race permitted to interfere in the lives of New Olympian halflings, or does Oberon view them as mortal and therefore not open to (unsolicited) interference?

Thanks.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Greetings Greg,

On the subject of halflings, I have been wondering for a long while how halflings that are part human and part animal (like the New Olympians) are born. My understanding from the archives is that a member of the Third Race can only breed with a mortal by assuming a truly mortal, flesh-and-blood body of the same species as the mortal they want to breed with. If this is correct, how does a mortal, with a Child of Oberon in a truly mortal body of the same species, end up with a child which does not look like the parents? For example, if a human and a Child of Oberon in a completely human body, like Anastasia, had children, how would the children look like anything except normal human beings? Or if a Child of Oberon took on a mortal horse form and mated with a mortal horse, wouldn't the offspring all look like normal horses? For example, how were the first centaurs, or the first minotaurs, born?

Thank you!

Random Fan writes...

It seems the more I read the archives (now that I've discoverd them)the more questions I have. The one that plagues me now is about an answer you gave in response to whether Halflings have to adhere to the no medeling rule.
Greg responds...
The rule is magically enforced. Oberon doesn't need to know about you to enforce it. You don't need to know about Oberon to have it enforced. But -- as we've seen -- loopholes abound. The trickier you are the easier it is to find loopholes. Bloodline -- or blood purity, so to speak -- has nothing to do with it.
My qustion then is how doesthe rule affect Halfling human relations? Because I havent heard anything about New Olimpus breaking the rules by becomeing part of the U.N, or An older Alex being a big wig in the 2198 spin off. What are a Halflings limits?

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Greetings Greg,

I have a few questions for you about the Third Race and language. Since the TV show never depicted non-English languages for technical reasons, and Avalon apparently translates in some way when it sends visitors to the mortal world, I do not assume that what sounds like English is necessarily English.

1. What language(s) do the Children of Oberon speak amongst themselves on Avalon? Do they speak a language (or languages) of their own there, or do they speak only human languages?
2. Do the Third Race have any languages of their own?
3. Did the Third Race ever have any languages of their own?

Thank you once again for answering fan questions!

Allen writes...

Hey, I've been following Ask Greg on and off since 2001. This is only my second post. Just wanted to say I appreciate you sustaining the fanbase.

1) Were halflings like Merlin or The New Olympians invited to go to Oberon's Gathering? I would think that Oberon's determination in attempting to bring Alex meant that The Gathering would not be limited to "full" fae. But I could be wrong. What's the truth, Greg?

Allen writes...

What was Oberon's purpose for The Gathering?

Clark Cradic writes...

Has Macbeth had any contact with or even know if the Third Race exist?

The MythMaker writes...

The Egyptian term "netjer", which a previous commentor says can be translated as "god" actually means "watcher". There is more to this story...

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

In the past, some posters here have implied that only iron can kill a member of the Third Race. This has never really been confirmed. Yet, when once asked if there were casualties in the war between Mab and Oberon, you said "yes, any war has casualties." If some of the Children of Mab did kill each other in that war, I find it hard to believe they used iron weapons!

So, is iron the only thing that can kill a member of the Third Race?

DarkFae writes...

Hello Mr. Weisman,

I have read through the FAQ and archives and could not find an answer to why the Third Race is called the Children of Oberon or the Children of Mab. Why are they called these things? Is it to show they follow that leader or is it something more? And what would happen to a member of the Third Race who called themselves a Child of Mab while Oberon ruled? Thank you for any consideration you give this question.

Clark Cradic writes...

Can Oberon's Children breed with Gargoyles?

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

About the Third Race: You've said that a Child of Oberon can recover from anything, as long as they aren't killed. When Oberon was very nearly killed with the iron harpoon, he recovered in just a matter of minutes, which was quite remarkable. But he's Oberon, he's much more powerful than most of his vassals.

When Anansi was stabbed with the spear and "bled" of some of his magical energy, he appeared to die but escaped by becoming much smaller. How long did it take Anansi to heal or recover? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? I'm not asking for an exact number, of course.

Thanks!

Clark Cradic writes...

In your opinion who do you think is more powerful: the Weird Sisters or Puck? I ask because I've noticed that they're the only ones of Oberon's Children who consistantly fight or aid the Gargoyles and I was curious what would happen if they ever came into conflict.
Also Oberon forbid his Children from harming or interfering with humans, did he forbid his Children from fighting amongst themselves? Again I ask cause I wonder why Grandmother didn't fight Raven herself.
Finally, why does Oberon even care what he or his race do to mankind? It's a little suprising that a being so powerful could have compasion for such 'mere mortals'.

Wesley Nichols writes...

I have a question regarding child rearing among the fae or Oberon's Children as they call themselves. Human children are generally raised by their biological parents while Gargoyle children are raised by the whole clan. How do the fae raise their young?

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

While I was looking in the GargWiki for information about the Olympians, I saw that you wanted to know the Ancient Egyptian name for the Egyptian pantheon.

The word which can be translated as "god" is _netcher_ or _netjer_, feminine _netcheret_ or _netjeret_, plural _netcheru_ or _netjeru_. TCH and TJ are just ways to spell the CH sound at the beginning and end of English "church," without confusing it with the German or Greek CH. As with every Ancient Egyptian word, the vowels were never written down, so the vowels in netjer and netjeru are speculatively added to make N-TJ-R and N-TJ-R-W pronounceable.

Netjeru refers to all the deities, including large numbers of minor deities who are servants to the greater deities, and who are often referred to in English as "demons" or "spirits." Netjeru sometimes also include other beings: deified mortals, the _akhu_ or souls of the dead, and divine beings like Ammut and Apophis that were not worshipped. Netjeru can also include the _bau_, which are "manifestations or emanations" send forth from a deity.

I do not know if netjer was also used to refer to gods of other religions, but I'm guessing it was.

What I have told you comes from Richard Wilkinson's "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt." In my non-expert opinion this is one of the best books on Egyptian Mythology that I have seen for the non-specialist.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello again,

I have a questions about the original Olympians in the Gargoyles universe. I hope you aren't sick of my curiosity about the Third Race, but the links to mythology are my favorite parts of Gargoyles, since I've always loved mythology.

I was looking in the Archives about the New Olympians, and I found two entries that interested me. In 2000, concerning the New Olympians and their ancestors, when asked about those ancestors who were worshipped as gods, you wrote:
"They weren't actually immortal."

Later in 2001, you wrote:
"The ancestors were the "gods and monsters" of legend. Many of whom were known as the Olympian Gods of Ancient Greek and Roman mythology.
Most of them were of the Children."

I'm sure I am misinterpreting your responses, but I find these two seem contradictory. The 2001 response indicates most of them were "of the Children" but the 2000 response seems to me to mean that most of them were not Children of Mab.

1. With regards to the original 12 Olympians, were most of the 12 Olympians Children of Mab, or just some of them? Or were most of the original 12 Olympians hybrids?

Thank you.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Hello Greg,

Thank you for taking questions again!
I have been waiting a while to continue this conversation about the Third Race. Honestly I have so many questions that I've been waiting to ask for the longest time, but I have generally held back so I wouldn't flood the queue.

A while ago, I asked you <<"Are Children of Oberon vulnerable to steel, since it contains iron?">>
You responded:
<<"I think pure iron is what they're MOST vulnerable, but who wants to take chances?">>

I think it makes sense that they're _most_ vulnerable to pure iron (wrought iron). However, it doesn't make sense to me that steel has no effect _at all_, yet this appears to be the case, judging from the ineffective-ness of Hudson's sword in The Gathering, and that spear in Mark of the Panther. Steel is stronger than wrought iron and holds a sharper edge, but chemically there is very little difference between steel and pure iron.

I did some research, and steel (including ancient steel and most modern steel) is 98%-99.5% elemental iron -- almost as pure as wrought iron. Cast iron is actually less pure than steel, it contains less elemental iron. Modern stainless steel is even less pure than cast iron.
It also turns out that all of what is marketed as "wrought iron" today is actually steel.

1. I have a question. Children of Oberon can be seriously harmed by being cut or stabbed with pure iron, but does it harm them just to touch it? Was Puck harmed (even just getting a rash or a minor burn) by having those chains on all night (in the Mirror)? They were touching his skin, but he didn't seem physically uncomfortable, just annoyed at Demona.

Wesley Nichols writes...

I reread one of your old postings where you state that fans sometimes call Oberon's Children fey, yet you do not really use this term because you need to do more research on what it means. Fey is one of the ways of saying fairy in french (fairy is a french word) with different ways of it being spelled such as fey, fae, or fairy. You have also stated that Oberon's children were sometimes called Dark Elves yet according to Elves, Wights, and Trolls by Kveldulf Gundarsson, Dark Elves were actually the dead in old Scandinavian religion. We know less about the light elves who were a type of god. However modern mythologists often confuse them with Dwarves (Swart Alfs). Alfs is what the scandinavians called elves before the word was anglecized by the english.

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

I've been thinking about the Gathering of the Third Race, and its effect on the various pantheons of the Gargoyles Universe. Once when asked about the afterlife and the Underworlds run by the gods, you wrote:

"My gut reaction, based on Dante as much as anything, is that people go where their souls truly want to go. Since it's voluntary, though not necessarily consciously so, there's no conflict with Oberon's edict."

I find this response interesting, since it allows those religious beliefs to all be true and (fairly) accurate, at the same time.
You've also told us that during the Gathering, the Children of Oberon (with a few exceptions like Puck and Titania) will be mostly confined to Avalon and will have to stay there until the Gathering ends. This raises two questions in my mind.
In various mythologies, the afterlife/underworld is populated by gods who judge and watch over the dead. The Greek myths mention Elysion, Tartaros, and the Kingdom of Hades, and Egyptian mythology mentions the Duat. The Aztec gods have several different afterlife options, such as Mictlan. In your previous response you said that dead mortals can still go to afterlives/underworlds controlled by the Third Race if they give some unconscious assent. But what happened to these afterlife places (or whatever you want to call them) after the Gathering started?

1. Are the Children of Oberon completely forbidden to visit in these underworlds/afterlife places during the Gathering?

2. During the Gathering, are the Children of Oberon completely forbidden to visit Earth or interact with the mortals there?

Thanks!

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

1. I've been wondering about the subject of families for a while.
Humans usually form nuclear families, or extended families, around biological kinship -- biological parents and children, and maybe grandparents, aunts, or uncles. Children generally grow up with their biological siblings, raised by their biological parents, or maybe a grandparent. If adopted, they generally form nuclear families as though they were biological. Many human societies have legal polygamy, while others value monogamy.
Gargoyles usually raise their offspring communally, one entire generation of parents raising a whole rookery generation as a set of siblings. Biological relationships are not important, and each individual has many parents and siblings. Siblings are only those who are the same age. For both species, it appears (except in dysfunctional families) that parents and children tend to bond closely, and individuals bond more or less closely with their siblings. Among gargoyles, mates are usually rookery siblings, they mate for life, and are almost always monogamous.
So far we have not learned anything about Third Race families, and I don't know whether you've thought much yet about how they raise their offspring. But I'm curious to see what you're willing to share about how Third Race parents, offspring, and siblings usually define their relationships to each other, how or whether they emotionally bond, what their (typical) concept of a family is. Does a member of the Third Race only have their two biological parents, or more than two parents, or less than two? Who usually raises them? Do they value monogamy, or is it acceptable/legal for them to have multiple marriages at once (not all partners are marriages)? I'm not looking for individual answers, but just an idea of what is typical or common or average for the Third Race.

2. Short question: Humans kiss and gargoyles stroke each other's head/hair/horns. What is the Third Race equivalent to these behaviors? (I'm guessing that since the Third Race can be humanoid or giant spiders or else have the heads of jackals, etc., that kissing isn't practical.)