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I have a rather...odd question.
I've read that fairies seem to have a problem with the words "thank you". 1. Do you think that's true in the Gargoyle's universe, in the case of say, Puck? If the Gargoyle's world considers him a fairy and not, like, a hobgoblin, maybe he's considered both, I don't know. 2. Would this be something they've grown out of, dismissing it as a human eccentricity or would it still irk them enough to go berserk on the poor well-meaning human? I've always made the half-joke that that's why Puck likes to mess with people. He gives them what they ask for but in a way that makes sure they never make the mistake of thanking him for it.
1. I've seen no indication of that.
A few questions about the Third Race.
1. Did they take anything with them to Avalon, or did they mostly just drop whatever it was that they were doing?
2. Did they take technology with them? Electronics. I mean, I'm sure magic compensates for most actual work they would have to do, but that doesn't mean that a few wouldn't like to take their Game Boy or something with them when they go home. No batteries on Avalon, I'm sure, but they might be able to make it work.
3. Would Oberon ALLOW them to bring technology onto Avalon, or does he consider it foreign magic?
4. I'm guessing that those who were married to humans at the time weren't allowed to bring their spouses along, were there a lot of broken homes made that year? You would think Oberon would make concessions about those things but then Avalon might see a spike in mortal inhabitants.
5. That brings me to another question; Would Oberon see a marriage between one of his race and a mortal as anything of significance? Anyways, I am glad you're still doing this, thank you! ^_^
1. Stuff isn't a big issue for a magical race.
2. Again, I'm not sure that's necessary. But if it pleases you...
3. He doesn't consider technology to be magic - much to his chagrin at times.
4. Oberon isn't big on concessions. But I'm not going to confirm or deny this one. Feels spoilery.
5. It would depend on a lot of factors.
1. Are members of the third race physically stronger than humans or gargoyles?
2. Can members of the third race increase their physical strength by casting spells?
1. Not necessarily. Depends on their form.
Can halflings with a Gargoyle and a Third Race parent have children with humans - or human/Third Race halflings with Gargoyles?
With or without the aid of magic or advanced science?
Did the Hunters ever interacted with any of the Children of Oberon? If so, what's their opnion about them?
SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT.
I would like to make a few questions about The Children of Oberon's weakness: Iron.
1) Why they are vunerable to it to begin with?
2) Is iron COMPLETLY inmune to their magic, or only highly resistent to it?
3) If so, how much iron composition other substances (like Steel) would need to be at least resistent to their magic?
4) If a Children of Oberon turn itself into a creature stronger than an average Gargoyle, would he/she be able to break a iron chain with it's bare hands?
5) If the Children of Oberon can't affect iron with magic, how did Oberon managed to do things like levitating Xanatos' laser-gun, shockwave several robotic gargoyles and melt a lamppost with his bare hands?
1. Maybe because most iron comes from outer space? (Honestly, I don't know. They just are. Like Mon-El's vulnerable to lead.)
2. Iron is immune, but if you can pick up a pair of wood tongs with your magic, you can use the tongs to pick up the iron rod. (Or something like that.)
3. Any iron in an alloy adds resistance, but if you're looking for a numerical value, you've asked the wrong guy.
5. Depends what they are made of. And also look at the answer to question two. A mighty wind is a mighty wind and can blow anything out of it's path. If Oberon can create a wind, it blows.
I noticed in another series of children's books called The Sisters Grimm that the author, Michael Buckley, also had Puck as a main character, only he has the form of a 12 year old and seems to have the mindset of one. He also has a pair of pink insect wings (despite still being a shape-shifter) that he isn't ashamed of at all.
He's written in a way that makes me believe he could have been your version of Puck at a younger age, though he is considered in that series to be the literal child of Oberon and Titania (Oberon's children, haha).
What's more is that King Oberon and Queen Titania live in Manhatten, New York City. I can't help but wonder if there's some of the Gargoyle show's influence at work here.
1. Were you aware of this series and its similarities?
2. Did you ever exchange words with Michael Buckley?
3. Do you think it's possible he watched your show, Gargoyles, or more likely that it was a coincidence?
3. I have no idea.
Your rendition of Puck really rekindled an interest of fairy lore in me, especially since I love tricksters and their amoral personalities that make them so complex. I love how you never know if they'll do something 'good' or 'bad' to someone else simply on a whim, and you portrayed that so well.
I read a previous answer of yours to someone else that said you didn't want to label Puck, Oberon, and Titania as 'faeries' because of the pejorative connotations that the word has. I realize and empathize with you about how fairies are often thought of as nothing more than pretty little girls with butterfly wings or something to that effect, who wave magic wands to grant wishes and always do good. Makes me sick.
1. Is that why you didn't have Puck, Oberon and Titania portrayed with fairy wings despite their status in their original play?
2. If so, why bother to have Puck fly around at all, let alone with fairy dust trailing behind him?
There's a show I recently learned of called Durarara!! in which a Dullahan (technically a sort of fairy) comes to Tokyo to find her missing head, taking the form of a black-wearing motorcyclist and transferring her headless horse's spirit into a pitch black motobike. To hide the fact she has no head, she wears a full helmet and tries to blend in with the city, acting as a transporter and courier for gangs and info brokers, forcing fans to reconsider their initial mental image of a typical fairy.
I think if you had recognized that Puck and the others were Fae, it just might have saved the Fae's tainted, modern day reputation, considering how well-known and admired the Gargoyles show is. However, I understand respect the choices you made, and it was pretty much obvious who they were in the long run.
1. "Despite"? Most of the versions I've seen are wingless.
2. Uh... it looked cool?
I don't recall saying no to the words "faery", "fairy" or "fae" because of perjorative connotations. I think the point I was making is that Oberon and Titania were "larger" than that. The Children of Oberon include those creatures traditionally associated with the "fae" but also various pantheons, etc.
1. If a Child of Oberon were to be imprisoned in a cell, box, room, or cage of iron, what effect might it have on them (if they can even be contained in one)?
2. Would that depend on the length of time they were imprisoned in such a cell?
3. Could they die from it, or only be weakened by it?
4.Does it physically pain them?
1. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
2. See above.
3. See above.
4. See above.
Hi first time questioner, long time fan so here we gp
1)Does Titania still have feelings for Renard?
2)When Oberon sent all of the third race into the human world to learn humailty, what he was he doing for that time. Was he in the human world aswell?
3)Oberon said that they golaith could have killed him with the iron bell. If he had died what would have become of his children?(so to speak)
1. Feelings, yes. Romantic feelings - not much.
3. They'd probably become Titania's Children for the short term. Beyond that, I'm not to big on hypotheticals.
Can Oberon's children eat food containing iron, such as meat or spinach?
Let's not get carried away.
What I don't get is that if Oberan commanded them (his children) toï»¿ not interfere in human affairs why are so many of them interested in carving out their own little dominion across Earth? That just never really clicked in my head...
The "don't interfere" doctrine came LONG after they carved out their dominions, as you put it. It's relatively recent. (Just over a thousand years ago.)
I've got a Third Race question I've been mulling over. Now obviously a lot of the Children are drawn from the gods and supernatural beings of various world mythologies. But since you established that many of them have adapted mortal identities over the centuries, particularly during the 1001 year exile from Avalon, did any of them take mortal identities we might recognise from conventional history books?
Any of them? Sure.
I don't quite understand the Gathering; was it a family reunion meant to last a few centuries before letting all the Children go back to the real world, a chance forï»¿ everyone to worship their Lord, or did everyone have to go back to Avalon and stay forever?
Initially, it was a return for a reassessment. The result of that is yet to come.
I have a question for you about the half-mortal, half-Third Race hybrids. I know that the Children of Oberon cannot use their magic directly on iron. But can half-mortal hybrids use Third Race magic to directly affect iron?
No. Unless they're using mortal magic.
You say that Titania as Anastasia, like Puck as Owen, is completely human. Does that mean Fox being half Fae was planned choice? Does conceiving a half Fae child requiring choosing to only appear human rather than be human for a change?
Fair question. It's worth discussing. But I don't have a hard, fast answer now.
I just re-read The Moorchild by Eloise McGraw. It's a book I mentioned in a much earlier question to you, one about a changeling girl who is half human and half fae, and the weirdness and difficulty she has fitting in with either because she is different from both species. (It's even set in medieval Scotland.) It prompted me to ask you how different or similar, emotionally and psychologically, the Third Race are to humans, because the depiction in this book is of quite inhuman fae who really can't relate to humans. You have consistently answered that the Third Race are quite similar to humans, emotionally and psychologically -- that the main difference is that of great power without great responsibility, of never growing old or having to work, and of being able to look however they want on a whim. You've even said that a human could imagine what it is like to be such a being by imagining what life for one of us would be like with those benefits.
Reading The Moorchild again got me to wondering about what it is like growing up as a hybrid (in a family of non-hybrids), or as a non-hybrid changeling raised by another species, in the Gargoyles universe. The personality differences don't seem nearly as pronounced between humans and Third Race as they are between humans and fae in The Moorchild, so it seems like fewer problems should arise, although physically there seems to be quite a lot of difference between mortals and the Children even when they look human. Clearly a half-mortal child like Fox can grow up without ever figuring it out, or learning magic. But did she ever feel different from the mortal children around her? Did other humans notice anything different about her? Or was there nothing really out of the ordinary, no noticeable outward signs of her magical heritage?
And what about Morgan le Fay, who according to what you have revealed is a purely Third Race changeling. Was it strange for her to grow up among humans? I assume she looked human, but did she feel human, or did she feel different from those around her? Did she seem unusual to her human parents and siblings, or did they never really notice anything out of the ordinary, personality-wise or physically? Did she just seem like a regular human being to them?
As for Nimue, well, she can't have helped but notice she was different, not having the same nearly-effortless magical abilities and shapechanging that the Third Race have. That and not being made of pure magic, along with whatever that entails.
I imagine a slightly different dynamic for the Avalon Clan, since there was no human society around them and they actually outnumbered their foster parents 11-to-1, but I'm sure that was at least somewhat weird, especially for the humans.
I guess if the question is: "Did they feel different?" then the answer is a resounding "YES!". Because, I'm pretty sure I'm not a magical hybrid and I felt different. Doesn't everyone?
alright greg! we know oberon had two halfling sons, but he also had a son and a daughter with titania. who are they?
are they at the gathering?
can they leave like there parents can?
and what magic are they capable of together and/or separate?
please accept this fans should really know.
I don't accept that I have ANY obligation to reveal my future plans. I only EVER do it on a whim, and the last sentence of your post doesn't exactly inspire whimsy. More like... teeth-grinding.
Thanks for clarifying the feudal society of the Third Race.
Given this feudal arrangement, where does that put the Weird sisters? They are the Norns of the Norse, but also the Greek and Roman Fates, Furies, and Graces. Does that mean they're part of the Aesir? Or part of the Greek gods?
They're part of nearly every pantheon, in a sense. But really they're not part of any. They report directly to Oberon.
I have a question about Anubis.
Anubis is a death god, is strongly connected to death, and apparently has power over death (whether or not he chooses to use that power). But is he able to use magic that is not connected to death? Is he limited to only using and reversing the effects of "death magic," or can he mostly do anything he wants, magically speaking?
He's still one of the Children. Power isn't infinite, as we've seen. But he has options.
From watching The Gathering and other episodes with the Children of Oberon in it, and from your reveals on s8, it appears to me that the Third Race have a feudal-like system, with Oberon as the high king (more or less), and others as his subjects or vassals. I think you have said that there are various "subsets," such as the Aesir and the Egyptian gods.
Do these "subsets" or "pantheons" have any political or social reality in Third Race society? What I mean is, are they just convenient catagories for mortals to refer to this or that Child of Oberon as belonging to a mythological category, or are they actual groups who associate(d) with one another as such, who have something political, social, or cultural in common with one another?
Yes, it's a FEUDAL system. Odin reports to Oberon, but the Aesir report to Odin. And etc.
1. Do the Third Race as a whole view Oberon as their most powerful member, or do they follow him for other reasons (royal bloodline, his overthrowing of Mab, etc.) Are there any who might stand a chance of overthrowing him, or would even want to?
2. Is Oberon regarded as a tyrant by his subjects? Obviously neither Puck nor Banshee wanted to go to the Gathering, but what is more general opinion of Oberon's rule?
3. Several of the Third Race are venerated as gods by mortals (such as Anubis and Odin), while Oberon himself, so far as I'm aware, has never been the object of a major religion. Is he at all irritaded by this, or would he even care?
1. Probably all of the above.
2. Nah, I think generally most are loyal to him and believe he's ruled relatively wisely. Although, "relatively" may be the key word, as their previous ruler was Mab.
I've looked all over the archives and I did not find an answer to this. Once, somebody asked you why Anansi chose to be so big and ungainly, presumably since this form gave him trouble when fighting the gargoyles in "Mark of the Panther." You answered: << He ate a lot and gloried in it, I guess. And changing may not be as easy as you make it sound.>> Reading that, I realized that it has never been established explicitly whether shapeshifting is something that all of the Third Race can do. Anansi himself does shapeshift later, but only after getting stabbed. If it was very easy for him to change into a tiny form and run away, I would expect him to do that once pleading and offering bribes didn't work, instead of sitting there and getting stabbed.
Here's the original question: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3095
So are all of the Third Race able to shapeshift, or just some or most of them?
Are all of them able to assume mortal forms (like Owen), or can just some or most of them do this?
And are they all equally good/skilled/versatile at shapeshifting?
1. I don't want to make blanket statements, but most can.
The question in the last queue about whether Fox and David can vote after getting out of prison, and my own thoughts about the Third Race and Oberon's Law against interfering with mortals, has led me to this question: What does the Law of Oberon prevent and what does it allow, in terms of Oberon's Children participating in human politics? Do Anastasia Renard and Owen Burnett have U.S. citizenship, or if not could they get it if they wanted it? Can they vote? Can they get any more politically active than voting? (Leaving aside whether they actually want to do any of these things.)
My I-won't-be-held-to-this answer for the moment is that as long as they are living AS humans, they can PARTICIPATE in human affairs. They can eat lunch with other humans. They can see movies made by humans. They can conduct business with humans, and so, it follows, they can vote as humans vote... as long as they're not using magic to alter things.
I still don't have time to write out my thoughts about Bad Guys, let alone watch and read the Gargoyles medieval flashbacks marathon like I planned. They'll probably have to wait until graduation and winter break. But I still have so many other questions I want to ask you about Gargoyles!
I wonder often about the Third Race in the Gargoyles universe. You have revealed a lot of information about the gargoyles, since obviously they are the focus of the whole series, and less about the Third Race. I wonder how similar to or different from mortals they are, psychologically. The Third Race include the gods of various polytheistic religions, and at least in Greek, Norse, and Egyptian myths, gods are depicted as having pretty human psychology, and the same emotions as human beings. They are also depicted as having cultures very similar to their worshippers. Of course, myths were created by mortals and "few things are accurate." The Third Race also includes beings like the Fair Folk and/or the Fae. In fiction that I have read about Faerie folk, they aren't often depicted as psychologically similar to human beings. For example, in the book "The Moorchild", the Faeries (called Moorfolk) seem quite different from human beings. They raise their children communally, and also seem to entirely lack the emotions of love and hate. They don't even seem to form any emotional ties to one another, perhaps not even what humans would necessarily call friendship. The book convincingly and successfully depicts beings that are, in some ways, very alien from human beings. Other depictions (like in the table-top role-playing game Exalted) make the Fair Folk even more alien.
In the Gargoyles show and comics, gargoyles clearly have a similar psychology to humans: although they have some differences which make them more than just humans with wings, they're pretty similar to us in most ways. They obviously feel love and hate, for example, and although their family relations are structured differently, it seems pretty clear that they love and care about their children, parents, and siblings. I think in a past response you said that none of the races in the Gargoyles Universe are designed to be all that alien, not even the actual aliens, and that it should be possible to relate to all of them with some effort. So far, as individuals, the depictions of the Third Race make them seem more like the gods of myth, not necessarily following human moral ideas and sometimes being whimsical, but having a mostly human-like psychology. But except for the glimpses of the relationship between Titania and Oberon, and Titania's relationship to her human family (when however she was mostly in a human body, presumably full of human hormones and neurotransmitters) there wasn't a lot of interaction between the Third Race in the show, and obviously their society wasn't the focus.
So the main questions in my mind about this subject are these:
1. Do the Children of Oberon have the same emotional range as human beings, including emotions such as love, hate, shame, compassion, gratitude, jealousy, indignation, etc.?
2. How much detail of their long lives do they remember? Do they generally have better memory than humans, or is their memory only about as good as a human's? Does someone as old as Oberon have only a fuzzy recollection of things that happened 3000 or so years ago, or does he remember 3000 years ago (such as the events of Midsummer Night's Dream) as clearly as he remembers 30 years ago? Humans (and presumably gargoyles) have limited neurons in the brain for forming memories and synapses, and synapses that are not used regularly are trimmed away to make "room" for more useful connections, leading to loss of memories and skills that are less frequently used. But since Children of Oberon are made of pure magic, I don't think they even have neurons.
3. In their long lives, do the Third Race tend to get bored any more or less often than mortals do, or about as often?
2. Better memories for quantity, not necessarily more accurate.
3. If you're talking about frequency, I guess it's about the same -- except that they don't have to WORK for a living, so they have less they NEED to do, which may lead to increased boredom.
I have another question about the New Olympians, halflings, and the Law of Oberon (related to what Random Fan asked about the Law). In the Gathering, Oberon showed that his law is applied and interpreted differently for different halflings. Fox is too human because she has grown up with a mortal life, so the Law applies to her as to a mortal. But Titania has permission to interfere in Alex's life, perhaps because he is newborn and has not yet grown up to be human, but has the potential to be or become something else.
How does Oberon interpret and enforce his law in relation to the New Olympians? Are (or were, before the Gathering) the Third Race permitted to interfere in the lives of New Olympian halflings, or does Oberon view them as mortal and therefore not open to (unsolicited) interference?
The New Olympians ARE mortal.
On the subject of halflings, I have been wondering for a long while how halflings that are part human and part animal (like the New Olympians) are born. My understanding from the archives is that a member of the Third Race can only breed with a mortal by assuming a truly mortal, flesh-and-blood body of the same species as the mortal they want to breed with. If this is correct, how does a mortal, with a Child of Oberon in a truly mortal body of the same species, end up with a child which does not look like the parents? For example, if a human and a Child of Oberon in a completely human body, like Anastasia, had children, how would the children look like anything except normal human beings? Or if a Child of Oberon took on a mortal horse form and mated with a mortal horse, wouldn't the offspring all look like normal horses? For example, how were the first centaurs, or the first minotaurs, born?
Fair questions... maybe they're second generation... since Fox clearly has magical power...
Or maybe you're putting to DEFINING a limit on the Children, given that their powers and abilities are all about loopholes half the time.
It seems the more I read the archives (now that I've discoverd them)the more questions I have. The one that plagues me now is about an answer you gave in response to whether Halflings have to adhere to the no medeling rule.
The rule is magically enforced. Oberon doesn't need to know about you to enforce it. You don't need to know about Oberon to have it enforced. But -- as we've seen -- loopholes abound. The trickier you are the easier it is to find loopholes. Bloodline -- or blood purity, so to speak -- has nothing to do with it.
My qustion then is how doesthe rule affect Halfling human relations? Because I havent heard anything about New Olimpus breaking the rules by becomeing part of the U.N, or An older Alex being a big wig in the 2198 spin off. What are a Halflings limits?
What is the question exactly?
How does joining the U.N. magically interfere with anything?
I have a few questions for you about the Third Race and language. Since the TV show never depicted non-English languages for technical reasons, and Avalon apparently translates in some way when it sends visitors to the mortal world, I do not assume that what sounds like English is necessarily English.
1. What language(s) do the Children of Oberon speak amongst themselves on Avalon? Do they speak a language (or languages) of their own there, or do they speak only human languages?
2. Do the Third Race have any languages of their own?
3. Did the Third Race ever have any languages of their own?
Thank you once again for answering fan questions!
1. All of the above.
Hey, I've been following Ask Greg on and off since 2001. This is only my second post. Just wanted to say I appreciate you sustaining the fanbase.
1) Were halflings like Merlin or The New Olympians invited to go to Oberon's Gathering? I would think that Oberon's determination in attempting to bring Alex meant that The Gathering would not be limited to "full" fae. But I could be wrong. What's the truth, Greg?
1. Case-by-case. (But in general the New Olympians were not included.) Merlin wasn't there either.
What was Oberon's purpose for The Gathering?
It was planned 1001 years ago... to reunite the Children after their banishment.
Has Macbeth had any contact with or even know if the Third Race exist?
Yes and yes.
The Egyptian term "netjer", which a previous commentor says can be translated as "god" actually means "watcher". There is more to this story...
...and you're hiding it from me?
In the past, some posters here have implied that only iron can kill a member of the Third Race. This has never really been confirmed. Yet, when once asked if there were casualties in the war between Mab and Oberon, you said "yes, any war has casualties." If some of the Children of Mab did kill each other in that war, I find it hard to believe they used iron weapons!
So, is iron the only thing that can kill a member of the Third Race?
Hello Mr. Weisman,
I have read through the FAQ and archives and could not find an answer to why the Third Race is called the Children of Oberon or the Children of Mab. Why are they called these things? Is it to show they follow that leader or is it something more? And what would happen to a member of the Third Race who called themselves a Child of Mab while Oberon ruled? Thank you for any consideration you give this question.
It seems fairly straightforward to me, so I think you may be overthinking it. Oberon's the leader -- and a very paternalistic one at that -- so his "people" are referred to as the Children of Oberon (which is NOT to say that he is their literal parent). Before him, Mab was the leader, and they were referred to as the Children of Mab. It doesn't seem likely after so much time that anyone would still mistakenly refer to the Children of Oberon as the Children of Mab, so if it happened, it would probably be a political statement of some kind, and Oberon would deal with that depending on the situation.
Can Oberon's Children breed with Gargoyles?
About the Third Race: You've said that a Child of Oberon can recover from anything, as long as they aren't killed. When Oberon was very nearly killed with the iron harpoon, he recovered in just a matter of minutes, which was quite remarkable. But he's Oberon, he's much more powerful than most of his vassals.
When Anansi was stabbed with the spear and "bled" of some of his magical energy, he appeared to die but escaped by becoming much smaller. How long did it take Anansi to heal or recover? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? I'm not asking for an exact number, of course.
I'm glad you're not asking for an exact number, because my response is "a while". It took a while for him to recover. I hope that's inexact enough.
In your opinion who do you think is more powerful: the Weird Sisters or Puck? I ask because I've noticed that they're the only ones of Oberon's Children who consistantly fight or aid the Gargoyles and I was curious what would happen if they ever came into conflict.
Also Oberon forbid his Children from harming or interfering with humans, did he forbid his Children from fighting amongst themselves? Again I ask cause I wonder why Grandmother didn't fight Raven herself.
Finally, why does Oberon even care what he or his race do to mankind? It's a little suprising that a being so powerful could have compasion for such 'mere mortals'.
I guess I'd guess that the Sisters are more powerful, since at the very least there are three of them. But of course Puck's a trickster, and really the question seems a bit pointless.
Oberon did not forbid the Children from fighting among themselves. But Grandmother wasn't fighting for herself, but for the island. Plus, there's some question as to whether she could have beaten Raven in a straight-up head to head fight. Especially since fighting is clearly NOT her way.
I'm way more powerful than my dogs and cat, but I have a lot of compassion for them, and certainly wouldn't want anyone to harm them.
I have a question regarding child rearing among the fae or Oberon's Children as they call themselves. Human children are generally raised by their biological parents while Gargoyle children are raised by the whole clan. How do the fae raise their young?
There's a lot of cultural inconsistency there, but generally I'd say parents raise children.
While I was looking in the GargWiki for information about the Olympians, I saw that you wanted to know the Ancient Egyptian name for the Egyptian pantheon.
The word which can be translated as "god" is _netcher_ or _netjer_, feminine _netcheret_ or _netjeret_, plural _netcheru_ or _netjeru_. TCH and TJ are just ways to spell the CH sound at the beginning and end of English "church," without confusing it with the German or Greek CH. As with every Ancient Egyptian word, the vowels were never written down, so the vowels in netjer and netjeru are speculatively added to make N-TJ-R and N-TJ-R-W pronounceable.
Netjeru refers to all the deities, including large numbers of minor deities who are servants to the greater deities, and who are often referred to in English as "demons" or "spirits." Netjeru sometimes also include other beings: deified mortals, the _akhu_ or souls of the dead, and divine beings like Ammut and Apophis that were not worshipped. Netjeru can also include the _bau_, which are "manifestations or emanations" send forth from a deity.
I do not know if netjer was also used to refer to gods of other religions, but I'm guessing it was.
What I have told you comes from Richard Wilkinson's "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt." In my non-expert opinion this is one of the best books on Egyptian Mythology that I have seen for the non-specialist.
Wow, that's seriously helpful, both the info and the reference book. I'm definitely buying that book! Thanks.
I have a questions about the original Olympians in the Gargoyles universe. I hope you aren't sick of my curiosity about the Third Race, but the links to mythology are my favorite parts of Gargoyles, since I've always loved mythology.
I was looking in the Archives about the New Olympians, and I found two entries that interested me. In 2000, concerning the New Olympians and their ancestors, when asked about those ancestors who were worshipped as gods, you wrote:
"They weren't actually immortal."
Later in 2001, you wrote:
"The ancestors were the "gods and monsters" of legend. Many of whom were known as the Olympian Gods of Ancient Greek and Roman mythology.
Most of them were of the Children."
I'm sure I am misinterpreting your responses, but I find these two seem contradictory. The 2001 response indicates most of them were "of the Children" but the 2000 response seems to me to mean that most of them were not Children of Mab.
1. With regards to the original 12 Olympians, were most of the 12 Olympians Children of Mab, or just some of them? Or were most of the original 12 Olympians hybrids?
Just some of them.
Thank you for taking questions again!
I have been waiting a while to continue this conversation about the Third Race. Honestly I have so many questions that I've been waiting to ask for the longest time, but I have generally held back so I wouldn't flood the queue.
A while ago, I asked you <<"Are Children of Oberon vulnerable to steel, since it contains iron?">>
<<"I think pure iron is what they're MOST vulnerable, but who wants to take chances?">>
I think it makes sense that they're _most_ vulnerable to pure iron (wrought iron). However, it doesn't make sense to me that steel has no effect _at all_, yet this appears to be the case, judging from the ineffective-ness of Hudson's sword in The Gathering, and that spear in Mark of the Panther. Steel is stronger than wrought iron and holds a sharper edge, but chemically there is very little difference between steel and pure iron.
I did some research, and steel (including ancient steel and most modern steel) is 98%-99.5% elemental iron -- almost as pure as wrought iron. Cast iron is actually less pure than steel, it contains less elemental iron. Modern stainless steel is even less pure than cast iron.
It also turns out that all of what is marketed as "wrought iron" today is actually steel.
1. I have a question. Children of Oberon can be seriously harmed by being cut or stabbed with pure iron, but does it harm them just to touch it? Was Puck harmed (even just getting a rash or a minor burn) by having those chains on all night (in the Mirror)? They were touching his skin, but he didn't seem physically uncomfortable, just annoyed at Demona.
I don't think it causes hives, but I suppose it varies from individual to individual.
I reread one of your old postings where you state that fans sometimes call Oberon's Children fey, yet you do not really use this term because you need to do more research on what it means. Fey is one of the ways of saying fairy in french (fairy is a french word) with different ways of it being spelled such as fey, fae, or fairy. You have also stated that Oberon's children were sometimes called Dark Elves yet according to Elves, Wights, and Trolls by Kveldulf Gundarsson, Dark Elves were actually the dead in old Scandinavian religion. We know less about the light elves who were a type of god. However modern mythologists often confuse them with Dwarves (Swart Alfs). Alfs is what the scandinavians called elves before the word was anglecized by the english.
"Swart" means "black". So Swart Alfs would be Dark Elves... so...?
And in any case, I think my point about the fey was that it was NOT my term of choice. It didn't cover ALL that Oberon's Children were.
I've been thinking about the Gathering of the Third Race, and its effect on the various pantheons of the Gargoyles Universe. Once when asked about the afterlife and the Underworlds run by the gods, you wrote:
"My gut reaction, based on Dante as much as anything, is that people go where their souls truly want to go. Since it's voluntary, though not necessarily consciously so, there's no conflict with Oberon's edict."
I find this response interesting, since it allows those religious beliefs to all be true and (fairly) accurate, at the same time.
You've also told us that during the Gathering, the Children of Oberon (with a few exceptions like Puck and Titania) will be mostly confined to Avalon and will have to stay there until the Gathering ends. This raises two questions in my mind.
In various mythologies, the afterlife/underworld is populated by gods who judge and watch over the dead. The Greek myths mention Elysion, Tartaros, and the Kingdom of Hades, and Egyptian mythology mentions the Duat. The Aztec gods have several different afterlife options, such as Mictlan. In your previous response you said that dead mortals can still go to afterlives/underworlds controlled by the Third Race if they give some unconscious assent. But what happened to these afterlife places (or whatever you want to call them) after the Gathering started?
1. Are the Children of Oberon completely forbidden to visit in these underworlds/afterlife places during the Gathering?
2. During the Gathering, are the Children of Oberon completely forbidden to visit Earth or interact with the mortals there?
1. I'm sure Oberon doesn't want his "officers" shirking their responsibilities. Some considerations have probably been made.
2. Largely, yes.
1. I've been wondering about the subject of families for a while.
Humans usually form nuclear families, or extended families, around biological kinship -- biological parents and children, and maybe grandparents, aunts, or uncles. Children generally grow up with their biological siblings, raised by their biological parents, or maybe a grandparent. If adopted, they generally form nuclear families as though they were biological. Many human societies have legal polygamy, while others value monogamy.
Gargoyles usually raise their offspring communally, one entire generation of parents raising a whole rookery generation as a set of siblings. Biological relationships are not important, and each individual has many parents and siblings. Siblings are only those who are the same age. For both species, it appears (except in dysfunctional families) that parents and children tend to bond closely, and individuals bond more or less closely with their siblings. Among gargoyles, mates are usually rookery siblings, they mate for life, and are almost always monogamous.
So far we have not learned anything about Third Race families, and I don't know whether you've thought much yet about how they raise their offspring. But I'm curious to see what you're willing to share about how Third Race parents, offspring, and siblings usually define their relationships to each other, how or whether they emotionally bond, what their (typical) concept of a family is. Does a member of the Third Race only have their two biological parents, or more than two parents, or less than two? Who usually raises them? Do they value monogamy, or is it acceptable/legal for them to have multiple marriages at once (not all partners are marriages)? I'm not looking for individual answers, but just an idea of what is typical or common or average for the Third Race.
2. Short question: Humans kiss and gargoyles stroke each other's head/hair/horns. What is the Third Race equivalent to these behaviors? (I'm guessing that since the Third Race can be humanoid or giant spiders or else have the heads of jackals, etc., that kissing isn't practical.)
1. I'm mostly not going to answer this now, but expect variety.
2. Kissing works often. But there are other options, I'm sure.
Now i noticed and a may be wrong but Titania seemed less effected by iron as did puck then Oberon himself. I was wondering if maybe this was because they are less Allergic to it being his children, and is Titania just less effected in general?
They're not LITERALLY his children. And I'm not sure why you say they were less effected?
Wow, I had no idea Bad Guys was already out. It's been a busy month. But I got a lot of thinking time since I've been on medical leave and I came up with these little gems.
1. OK, in the case of Owen/Puck you've said that Owen is fully human and can't do magic unless he's Puck (as far as I know anyway) and that rule applies to all Faeries. However, Fox is the offspring of Titania as a human and Reynard but she and her son are able to cast spells. I've read a few things about the differences between human and faerie magic but the only times we've seen magic in humans is through an object of some sort i.e. the Grimoire, the Eye of Odin, the Pheonix Gate ect. So what kind of magic do Fox and Alex (and presumely Merlin) use? If human why don't they need an object; if Fairy how?
2. I'm a HUGE fan of Midsummer's Night Dream but there is one thing that has irritaed me even when I was 10 years old. You switched the roles of Titania and Oberon. In the play Oberon was the consort though he was King of the Elves, Titania was the Queen of Fairies. What made you switch their roles?
3. I know you'll hate this question but is Mab plotting the destruction of Titania and Oberon or is she just gonna destroy us all outright?
Thanks for the answers!
1. Mortal sorcery doesn't enter into it. Owen is a mortal construct, able to do no magic except transform into Puck. Fox is half-human/half Child of Oberon. Alex is 3/4 human, 1/4 Child. Merlin is half and half. What isn't clear about this?
2. I've read and seen Midsummer easily 100 times. In what way did I switch their roles? Are you sure you're not allowing your interpretation of the play to influence your interpretation of what we did on the show?
3. I don't hate the question, but I have no intention of answering it at this time.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Tony Dracon steals hi-tech weapon prototypes from Xanatos Enterprises. Elisa is put on the case and confronts Dracon, who later orders Glasses to sell a few of the weapons on the street. Broadway rushes off to see the movie Showdown again and then goes to Elisa's loft for a bite to eat. He accidentally shoots her with her own gun and rushes her to Manhattan General Hospital. He does not return to the castle.
At the behest of Fox, the cybots are reprogrammed by Preston Vogel to sabotage Fortress-2. Goliath and Renard join forces to defeat them and save the ship. In the end, Vogel has a change of heart and assists. Early that morning, Fox confronts Renard, informing her father of her pregnancy. Owen learns from Xanatos that Fox is pregnant and begins making preparations for a possible attack from the Children of Oberon.
I have a few more questions I'm wondering about the Children of Oberon. I'm trying not to ask too many at one time.
1. a. The Children of Oberon are shapeshifters, able to appear any way they want, right? So I'm wondering, why did Odin always have one eye in "Eye of the Storm" (before he got it back) in all forms? The obvious/immediate answer is that in the myths he's one-eyed, so he had to be one-eyed in the show, but what is the reason for that in the Gargoyles Universe? After giving an eye to Mimir, was Odin unable to change shape into a form with two (or more) eyes, or did he just chose not to (that we saw)?
b. In the myths of some cultures (like the Norse) gods can lose body parts, but in some other cultures the myths say gods can't be permanently injured. Is it possible for Children of Oberon to permanently lose body parts (um, until they find them again and reattach them like Odin did), or be injured seriously enough to leave permanent scars? I've gotten the impression they are not flesh and blood -- even when Oberon was stabbed with the iron harpoon, he didn't bleed.
2. a. In the past when asked if the Third Race need food you answered "Yes, depending on their chosen form."
When a Child of Oberon is not in a truly mortal form, does he or she need food? (By "truly mortal form" I mean a mortal flesh-and-blood body like Owen, not just a shape that looks like a human or gargoyle.)
b. When a Child of Oberon is not in a truly mortal form, does he or she need to breathe?
3. When a Child of Oberon takes on a completely mortal body and mates with a mortal of the appropriate species, the offspring is a "halfling." But what happens if two Children of Oberon both take mortal forms of the same species, and then have kids together? What would their offspring be?
And thank you again for answering our questions! It's really great to have this website.
1a. The exchange itself created a mystic restriction.
1b. Rules that cannot be broken can be bent, but they can't be broken. But they can be bent. But not broken. (Get the idea.)
2a. Yes, but I'm not defining what food is for them.
2b. Yes, but I'm not defining what they breathe.
Yay the queue is open! I'm happy you're taking questions again. (and I'm of course excited to get #6, which I'll be ordering asap). I hope you don't mind questions unrelated to reviewing the comic... those Children of Oberon always make me so curious.
1. a. So Ragnarok already occured in the Gargoyles Universe. When did it happen? (If you don't want to give a year or decade, can you please say what century it happened in?)
b. Did any of the gods survive Ragnarok, other than Odin? If some did, who?
2. You've also told us that the war between the Titans and Olympians was a real event in the Gargoyles Universe. What happened to the defeated Titans afterwards? (I don't want to assume it is the same as the myths, or to ask more specifically for fear it would be an idea)
3. When was Oberon born? (If you don't want to give the year or decade, please say what century?)
1a. Yes, it occured, but no I'm not going to hint at a date (even a century) at this time.
1b. Yes, a few others did. But I'm not revealing who at this time. (Though the myths themselves are a good hint.)
2. I'm not answering this at this time.
I hope nothing in my previous questions about the fae bothered you.
These are the other questions I have about the Children of Oberon ... as you can see I'm very curious about them. I hope five questions are not too many. (At least I got the number right this time!)
1. In some cultures, shamans believe that they have a personal connection to an animal totem who acts as a helper or spirit guide. In the "Gargoyles" universe, is this true? (OK, all things are true, but is it correct? :) ) Do any of the Third Race such as Raven and Coyote form personal connections to shamans or other individual humans (besides the one formed in the Coyote Dance)? I understand this isn't necessarily something you want to reveal, I'm just hoping you're in the mood. :)
2. How many people can be avatars of a single Child of Oberon at any one time? Is there a limit?
3. a. Are halflings vulnerable to iron the way that the Third Race are? Fox doesn't seem to be bothered, she never suspected she was a halfling. But if for example, Alex shapeshifted into a non-mortal form, would he be vulnerable to iron?
b. Can a halfling be bound with iron, the way Puck was in The Mirror, or how the Coyote robot captured Coyote?
4. The Children of Oberon cannot use their magic on iron. But the Magus (a human) used Avalon's magic on iron. Can halflings use fae magic to affect iron? (but I don't mean to imply that Avalon's magic is the same as fae magic)
5. a. Does each Child of Oberon have an inherent sex or gender, or is their sex/gender only a shape they take? Personally I think of sex as a biological or physical trait, but gender seems to be more psychological, or even spiritual.
b. Not necessarily the same question ... can Children of Oberon take on shapes of either gender (or no gender, or hermaphroditic, or make up an imaginary gender)? Can they take mortal forms of either sex?
OK, anyway thank you again for answering our questions! It is really great to be able to find out more about the Gargoyles Universe.
3a. Have to wait and see.
3b. Chains are still chains.
4. Again, the term "fae" is NOT from the show. The fans use it so much, that I sometimes slip into it. But it's not accurate to my mind. Which doesn't, of course, answer your question.
5a. The Children are a relatively new species. Gender may be learned on their part (the way language came from human to gargoyle) which doesn't make it less important at this point.
5b. Yes. Remember Loki, MOTHER of Sleipnir.
My favorite part of "Gargoyles" has always been the incorporation of myths and legends -- both the presence of actual gods and characters like King Arthur and Cuchullain, and the hints that gargoyles inspired some mythical creatures, such as griffins, black dogs, and feathered serpents. Greek Mythology was one of my first great loves as a child, and remains one of my favorite things to read about and study, though I've branched out somewhat into the myths of other cultures. And I agree with Chip, I'm very glad you didn't make Anubis evil. Lots of fantasy settings that use mythological characters just assume that all death gods are evil, without really reading any of the stories about them, and that irritates me a great deal.
So naturally, I am very curious about the Children of Oberon, and their connection to mythology around the world. I have a lot of questions about them, and I don't want to bother you by posting a ton all at once, so I'm only posting some of them for now. I hope 6 in one post is not too many.
1. a. Are Children of Oberon vulnerable to steel, since it contains iron? Oberon reacted badly to Elisa's gun which she said was "steel alloy" but I have no idea what bullets themselves are made of, or if Oberon knows what bullets are. And the spear that Anansi was stabbed with looked to me like steel.
b. Can Children of Oberon be harmed at all by non-iron weapons, such as a bronze sword, or fire, or a laser?
2. a. In the past when asked if the Third Race need food you answered "Yes, depending on their chosen form." To clarify, do you mean that they only need food when they take a truly mortal form like Owen, but not when they are in a Third Race form (like Puck)? Or that it depends on what shape they take even when not in a mortal form?
b. Do the Third Race need to breathe? I mean, when they are not in a truly mortal form like Owen. c. If they do breathe, what gas do they use? Oxygen, or carbon dioxide, or something else? I'm guessing I know what the answer is, somebody once asked about blood and oxygen and you said they have no blood. I'm just trying to be sure.
3. You've said that some of the Greek gods were Children of Mab but some may have been halflings similar to the New Olympians. Since Zeus and the other Greek gods were worshiped at least as early as 2000 BC, if any of the Olympians were halflings, could any of them still be alive in 1996? Can halflings actually live thousands of years? (without being enchanted by somebody else like Macbeth and Demona were)
4. Were/are the Titans members of the Third Race?
5. I think you've stated that the Aesir were of the Third Race. What about the Vanir?
Thanks again for answering questions from the fans.
1a. I think pure iron is what they're MOST vulnerable, but who wants to take chances?
1b. Depends on their form, their preparedness, etc.
2a. Uh... yes?
2b. I'm not really in the business of allowing you to be sure. (I'm in a quirky mood today. Excited about the Gathering, I think.)
3. Not revealing this at this time.
5. Many, not all the Aesir were Children. As for the Vanir... not revealing this at this time.
6. Didn't you say you had six questions?
As I mentioned at the '06 Gathering (but you prolly forgot, no big) I am an Egyptology Major and my favorite episode was "Greif". Because A; it portrayed Anubis (Which is his Greek Name BTW, the Egyptians called him Yinepu or Inpu) in a positive light (and as one of the Third Race, cool to tie everything together) B; because it was a well written and powerful episode C; because it explained (Though not in so many words) the blending together of Egyptian Gods (They merge and change roles frequently) and D; because as powerful as Anubis was he could not undo death, even death he caused. Very powerful to me.
Which brings me around to my question, which other gods of Egypt (also called Neter or Netjer just like the Norse gods were called the Aesir) exist in the Gargoyles Universe? Because of the Shapeshifting Nature of the Third Race any number of gods could have fullfilled many roles (as they did in Eygptian Mythology)
Is Thoth in the Gargverse? Osiris? Isis? Set? Horus? Ra? Hathor/Sahkmet? Bes? Sobek? These are just some of my favorites, there are over 10,000 Egyptian gods.
In honesty, I don't expect you to have thought about this as much as I have, but you never know, I might just be surprised (you do that alot)
(OH! PS: if you need an Egyptology Consult for any upcoming issues I'm your guy!)
Thanks, Chip. I might take you up on that someday. Thoth is pretty much a lock. Beyond that, I'd rather not say.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Canmore is crowned High King of Scotland as Malcolm III.
The Banshee informs Puck that the Gathering is at hand.
When they speak of Oberon's Law and/or The Law that Cannot Be Broken, does this refer only to the law of non-interference, or in a more general, "his word is law" sense?
Depends on context.
Are changelings called to the Gathering?
Probably depends on what their status was pre-diaspora, i.e. 1001 years ago.
At Gathering, Part II, when Petros Xanatos shoot and wounded Oberon(deadly, in my opinion) with an iron arrow, why Oberon didn't died? Is he "just" valnerable to iron, or can die by it?
For example, if you cut Oberon's head with an iron sword, would Oberon died?
He can die from prolonged exposure, but assuming the exposure isn't prolonged to the point of death, he can recover by having the exposure "removed". (Think Kryptonite, for lack of a better term.) So the answer to your first question is both.
Having said that, I did feel like we cheated a bit in Gathering II.
And I would think that if you managed to cut off Oberon's head with an iron sword, he would in fact die... assuming he didn't see it coming and removed his own head to dodge the blow.
How does Oberon maintain his rule over his Children? So far we've seen that many of them have abilities that could probably kill Oberon like Anubis's ability to manipulate life and death and Puck's ability to rewrite reality or is Oberon just much more powerful than the combined might of his children?
Than the COMBINED might... no, I doubt it. But do you really think that THAT group could agree on a replacement?
And to address your specific examples, Oberon is clearly more potent than Puck. Puck can't rewrite reality. He can simply send a false vision. SO not the same thing.
And we've seen how rigid Anubis is with his powers.
Could you please list the following events in chronological order:
1)Oberon overthrew Queen Maeve
2)in reference to City of Stone part 4 in the scene where Bodhe says the English rid their land of gargoyles years ago, the point in time in which the English thought they rid themselves of gargoyles
3)Merlin was born
4)Oberon married Titania
6)Last Member of the Lost Race died
7)Goliath, Angela, Bronx, and Elisa meet Nokkar
Thank you for answering this question.
1. Although it's Mab in our continuity, not Maeve.
2 & 6 I'm choosing not to reveal at this time.
How did Anubis die?
1) Why did the producers of the show go with iron as the general weakness for Oberon's Children when many of them like Raven, Odin or Anubis were figures from mythologies that didn't see iron as a sort of "god kryptonite". In fact the Fenris wolf from norse mythology was able to snap his iron chains and had to be finally chained with a magical one and many of the gods and demons of the Far East didn't seem to have a problem with iron.
2)In relation to the first question why was Oberon the king and lord of the third race that included such beings as Odin and possibly Zeus and other godhead when in the traditional stories he was just a minor king of the fairies or elves?
In general I'm just rather curious why you put so many of the qualities found in fairies and elves such as Oberon and the iron weakness onto mythological figures such as Odin, Coyote or Anasi which in the end from my point of view kind of diminishes the gods.
1) When combining so many mythologies, certain choices have to be made. Since we were putting a traditional "fairy" figure like Oberon at the top of our feudal pyramid, using iron made sense. I understand your objection, even sympathize with it, but I also don't regret our decision.
2) Well, a short answer is that we wanted to diminish the gods a bit... or put another way, we wanted to create a unifying system for them all. A feudal system. Oberon and Titania got priority, because in general SHAKESPEARE got priority. Titania, as far as I know, is not a traditional figure but an invention of ol' Will's. I've always freely admitted to being a Shakespeare fanatic, so his characters, including Macbeth, Oberon, Titania, Puck, the Weird Sisters, etc. were always going to have featured roles in this series. Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference, and I was the guy in charge. That doesn't make me RIGHT in some transcendent sense, just means that I had the right to create the universe I wanted to play in. So I did.
In the "Gathering", what are the names of that winged horse and the name of that half man/horse next to Coyote??
It's been a long time since I've seen the episode. I don't know if we had names for them.
The other day, I was asked a question about sources for Oberon. I didn't know the answer, but I received this e-mail from site moderator, Todd Jensen:
In "Ask Greg" today, curousity asked you if there were any other sources besides Shakespeare for Oberon as "king of the faries [sic]". You replied, "Not off the top of my head." I hope that I'm not presuming here in e-mailing you, but I have found at least three works beside "A Midsummer Night's Dream" that portray Oberon in that role, both of which are early enough that they count as "primary sources".
One is a late medieval French work about one of Charlemagne's knights, entitled Huon of Bordeaux (written in the 15th century, and translated into English by a certain Lord Berners in 1548 - early enough, in other words, that Shakespeare could have used it as a source for Oberon). In it, Huon befriends Oberon in his adventures, and the latter becomes Huon's guardian, almost a "fairy godfather". (Oberon is portrayed in it as around three feet tall due to a curse placed upon him in his infancy, and as the son of Julius Caesar and Morgan le Fay!) At the end of the story, Oberon even brings Huon to Avalon and formally abdicates in favor of Huon, declaring him ruler over the "faerie-folk"; a bit of trouble develops, however, when King Arthur arrives at the gathering and protests, saying that if any human should be ruling over Avalon, it should be he himself rather than a relative newcomer like Huon. Oberon angrily tells Arthur that he has chosen Huon for his successor, is not going to change his mind, and even threatens to curse Arthur by transforming him into a werewolf if he doesn't accept it. Huon at this point steps in as a peacemaker, to say that he doesn't think that he could rule Avalon on his own and suggests that he and Arthur act as co-rulers. Oberon and Arthur both agree to this, after which Oberon peacefully dies and Arthur and Huon are crowned in his stead.
Another non-Shakespeare "primary source" involving Oberon is Michael Drayton's Nimphidia, which has Oberon ruling over the "fairies" as well - and wedded here to Queen Mab! (According to the research that I've done on fairy mythology, Titania appears to have been Shakespeare's invention as opposed to a pre-existing legendary figure, though Oberon and Puck both predated him.)
A third is Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene, which presents Oberon as the former ruler over "Fairyland", now deceased, with his daughter Gloriana - the Faerie Queene of the title - ruling in his stead. (Gloriana is actually an idealized Elizabeth I, meaning that the Oberon of Spenser would be an idealized Henry VIII.) The poem also includes, incidentally, King Arthur, Merlin, and Talos as on-stage characters.
Hey Greg on the portrayal of the children of oberon were you trying to making them as non-human and alien as possible in character or were you just trying to make them more like people who had incredible amounts of power?
I didn't have that kind of agenda, one way or another. I simply wanted to make them viable and compelling as characters.
That you for taking the time to look at this.
I was wondering the following considereing Oberon and the 3rd race:
1. Before the space-spawn invasion, does Oberon know of alien races and go to other worlds or does he not know or not care?
2. Are all of the third race weakened by iron or are some like Anubis and Odin who seem so different from the likes of Puck immune to it?
3. Why is Oberon far more powerful then other memebers of the third race? Is that the only reason he is king?
4. If I understand the weakness to iron correcly, it means any magic shield a fay attmpts to use pure iron would pass through and magic blasts like Oberon demonstrated would be stopped, right? Would these also apply to Odin's lightning bolts or Anubis's ageing attacks?
5. Do you know where it is written(story or other place) that Oberon is king of the faries and the magic's vulnerability to iron? Besides Shakespeare
6. Is Avalon an actual island on Earth Oberon hides with magic or is it in a different reality?
7. What do the third race do on Avalon? Puck seemed to think it would be boring and there does not seem to be alot to do for beings that are so powerful.
1. I'm not aware of him knowing about them at this time.
3. It goes a long way toward explaining things. But it combines with heredity.
4. Rules that won't break, can bend.
5. Not off the top of my head.
6. Somewhat other-dimensional. But it is attuned and part of the Earth.
7. It's home. Home can be boring sometimes, but most of us like to hang there.
Hello yet another time Greg! Sorry to flood you with questions as of late but keep fate, as I'm running out of things to ask you.
1. This one's simple and concerns the Children of Oberon.
Almost everyone uses Children of Oberon and Fae interchangeably. But after going through the archive for said beings, you once mentionned that Fae (or is it Fey? No one seems to agree on the spelling) are only one particular group of Oberon's Children akin to the Norse or African pantheon.
I'm not really knowledgeable in myths and legends, so could you tell me who the Fey are, with example from the show? I assume (perhaps or should I say probably wrongly) that it simply represents another pantheon, maybe the Anglo-Saxon one (is it Anglo-Saxon if I'm refering to England, Scotland, Ireland and other countries nearby) in which case, Puck, Oberon and Titania might be a part of it, being quite ingrained in English litterature.
But then again, what do I know?
2. This one's not a question but a personal comment, so I can get away with it not being on the same subject :) . It just dawned on me that by creating such a complex and (in itself) realistic universe with Gargoyles, you ran the risk of the viewers not "getting" many of the subtleties of the show, its universe and characters.
With your average TV show, things are often very clear. Heroes, while hardly perfect, are almost always morally right, while bad guys, which are not always purely evil persons, are almost always despisable no matter how they try to justify themselves. You rarely see a character that can't basically be classified as "good" or "evil", or to use more appropriate terms, morally "right" or "wrong".
Also, most of the time, what you see of a character on screen is a pretty accurate representation of who that person is and what they do all the time. So if someone is always seen giving money to the poor and never seen doing anything reprehensible, you assume that person is caring and generous. It never dawns on you that the man in question might actually beat up his wife everyday, because it wouldn't "fit" with the image shown to you. Yet it would not be impossible, as people are known to have very selective values sometimes. He might feel bad for those less fortunate while thinking that "disciplining" his wife is the right thing to do for a husband. Like I said, such is rarely the case, and what is shown is often intended to be representative of the whole truth.
And finally, things are often easily explained in most TV shows. The villain did this because of that, the aliens invaded for such reason, etc.
What am I getting at? That a lot of the questions you get at Ask Greg are due to the above. Although the fans recognize and live the show for its maturity and above-average (and that's putting it lightly) complexity, they fail to realize that things in the Gargoyles universe, just like in real life, don't have easy answers.
The seemingly benign Weird Sisters lost a large part of the popular vote when it seemed all their interventions were geared for the sole purpose of revenge. Yet, you said yourself that the Sisters have many aspects, with vengeance and fate being a part of them. We at first ASSUMED they were completely (or close to) benign, and then we changed our perception to one where they are only after revenge. And yet, like you said, things aren't that simple, and we STILL don't know much about who the Sisters really are. The fate part might play a larger role later on, or they could yet reveal another part of their identity. In the end, they are complex characters who cannot be summed up in a few sentence, which is what most people seem to want.
Oberon is another victim of this. I admit that I too, thought he was a big arrogant jerk, whom Titania manipulated all the time to get what she felt was best for everyone. But like you made me realize, he has a lot of quality, the first being that he cared enough about mortals and how his Children dealt with them to force them out in the real world for a millenium in the hope of them gaining some maturity. And in every story we saw with him, he always ended up being generally fair to most. He isn't perfect (and who is?); is not above pettiness and anger for example. But his behaviour, from his POV, is perfectly acceptable, if not admirable. And there is so much about him we don't know and haven't seen to be able to judge his being accurately. For all we know and despite appearances, Titania might not be THAT more mature than him.
The list goes on and on. People (and I'm guilty of that as well) want easy answers where there are only complex explainations. I hated the concept of Anubis on my first viewing of "Grief" because it seemed at first that all death on Earth were and had always been caused by the guy. It just seemed so cheap, yet I accepted it at face value because it was what was shown at the time (and like I said, we tend to not question things seemingly presented as fact). Now, thanks to you, I know better, with what little you let on about death-gods and their connection to death and such. And just like there's no solid rule as to wether the Children can go against Oberon's law. It depends on all sorts of things, like intent, bending the law itself and people's words and so long and so forth.
In short, thanks for Ask Greg, I've gotten a better perspective on the complexity of the Gargoyles universe. It doesn't mean I'm no longer looking for easy answers, but I understand why you might reply that "there are no easy answers" or "it isn't that simple", because in your mind, that's really the case. Thanks again for your patience and dedication!
1. The fans took to using the term Fae (spelled variously) as a replacement term for the admittedly awkward "Children of Oberon". Sometimes in answering questions, I have slipped and used the term as well, but I was never comfortable with it. And I'm even less comfortable in trying to define it as a subset of the Children. I haven't researched the subject enough.
2. Thank you for the kind words.
Hello again Greg.
I just have a few observations about Oberon and his children.
1. I'll admit to being one of the many people who was very disappointed by the way the Sisters acted in the "Avalon" trilogy. I've read all your explainations in the archive, but although it makes sense and I can accept it on an intellectual level... it still doesn't feel right. I've been asking myself why, and I think I've found an answer or sorts...
I think what was really intriguing about the sisters was the whole mystic surrounding them throughout the series up until the "Avalon" three-parters. They always seemed to have some higher goal in mind, like they were an integral part of destiny (you'll probably say they are, but I meant in a more intentional way). Their words of wisdom when talking to Goliath and friends in "City of stone" were especially touching. They appeared almost like moral guardians of some sort.
When we see them again in "Avalon", we find out their primary motive has been revenge all along. Maybe it wasn't the whole reason for their actions, but it certainly felt like that. And thus, their whole involvement in "City of stone" felt like cruel mindgames and very subtle manipulation.
Hum, you know, maybe the thing that makes it hard to accept is the fact the we, the audience, uncounsciously feel like WE were cheated and manipulated. Like Goliath and the gang, we were fooled from the beginning and we have a hard time accepting the truth, thus we prefer to think that the Sisters' characters were simply cheapened.
The human mind works in mysterious ways...
2. Oberon's children were forbidden by his law from interfering in the affairs of mortals. Those who took on a human form were obviously not a problem, since they were limited by their bodies just like every other mortal. I suppose assuming any other mortal form, like Gargoyle or simply animal, would also be okay.
Of course, a great many actually took on more fantastic forms, like Banshee and Anansi.
I've noticed that most of those we saw never really showed the full extent of magical powers that feys posess, although they often exhibited at least SOME kind of magical abilities.
a) Are they limiting (or customizing) their power in relation to their "character" of the moment, like Banshee having a powerful voice, or Odin having control over the elements? Because since they'd be limiting themselves, they wouldn't really be using "fey magic" against mortals and as such, wouldn't go against Oberon's law.
b) This one's technical, so if you don't feel like answering it, no problem.
You often said that the Third race don't have a true, definite form, being shape-shifters. Of course, some DO have a form they obviously prefer and we tend to associate it with their true form but "that assumption is faulty" as you would say.
I've been thinking about their vulnerability to iron, and how assuming a mortal bodies removes that limitation (as well as any magical power except reverting back). So Anastasia can touch iron but can't do any magic. That's simple. Any other mortal form would do the same.
Now, is it possible for a fey to assume a non-existing form, like Anansi as a giant spider, which would have some innate powers unique to this body (so it would have no other powers except the one of that form and the possibility to change back to "pure fey") while being immune to iron, pretty much like a mortal body?
And if you don't know and don't want to think about it, just say so. I'll understand :)
1. Totally agree... and that was my intent. I guess I just didn't count on HOW strongly people would feel along those lines... and how they would then translate that into disappointment with our execution. Or maybe we just sucked.
2a. You're assuming that every one of Oberon's Children have the exact same base power that can then translate into anything they choose. That's not the case. Banshee's appearance may or may not be a glamour. But Banshee is Banshee. Banshee isn't some other Oberon's child glamoured and powered as Banshee.
2b. See above. Appearance may be deceiving, but Anansi is Anansi. He is one of Oberon's Children in that form and is thus vulnerable to iron. Now if he shape-shifted himself into a real spider...
Can you give me a family tree of oberon and titiania's children across the centuries? I can't figure out if Puck is Alexnder Xanatos is pucks nephew or not. I would really like to know about Puck's/owen's secret love that you mentioned earlier too.
I'm not going to reveal anything new at this time, but I will summarize what I've already revealed:
Lord Oberon is the son of Queen Mab.
Lord Oberon married Titania (who became Queen Titania after Mab was overthrown). (Note: Oberon intentionally did not take the title of King. Retaining his "Lord" title is his semi-skewed attempt at being more... egalitarian.)
Oberon and Titania have two children together: one male and one female. I know exactly who they are, but I'm keeping their identities and personas secret for the time being.
Oberon also has at least two sons by mortal women: Merlin and the changeling boy from Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Titania has one child with the mortal Halcyon Renard. This is Janine Renard, a.k.a. Fox.
Fox married David Xanatos. They have one child: Alexander Fox Xanatos.
Puck, a.k.a. Owen Burnett, is not directly related to ANY of these individuals.
please can you tell me a list of all of oberon's children
How long was the Lady of the Lake living in that lake in Manhattan?
I don't know that she was living there.
Could Anubis really have resurrected the Emir's son if he wanted to? Would it have taken a lot of effort?
It is unclear whether he could have. The moral imperative NOT to seemed to have made it impossible.
Are the Weird Sisters older than Oberon? How about Titania, Odin or the Banshee?
I'm not going to tie my hands by revealing this stuff now. They're all pretty darn old.
1) Can any of the fae magically perceive the future (not predict and use magic to change the future) as it will be? e.g. predict the order of lotto numbers 200 consecutive times, not predict and magically set the numbers as such
2) If so do they often exercise such an ability? Why or why not? also, did Mab also perceive her fall?
1. Some may have precognative ability, though I tend to think it would come with some limitations.
2. I doubt Mab saw it coming.
Who is puck? What kind of craeture is he?
He's a member of the so-called "Third Race" a.k.a. "Oberon's Children" a.k.a. "The Children of Oberon" a.k.a. "The Fair Folk" a.k.a. "Dark Elves", etc.
1.Are Thor's sons alive? I mean they were said to survive ragnorak.
2.How about Vidar and Vali?
3.What about Odin's wife? Is she alive?
I'm not going to start rattling off a laundry list of Norse Gods and figures.
I have basic ideas about how Norse mythology fits into the Gargoyles Universe, but I won't pretend I've yet had the opportunity (or need) to go through each and every "character" and figure out where he or she or it is currently hanging.
Do Titania and Oberon's two children in any of the traditional stories about the fay?
It depends what you consider fay-canon, I guess.
Does Oberon's law of non-interference in mortal affairs extend to animals? In a previous response you said Anansi's turning the Panther Queen into a human didn't count because she provoked him or words to that effect, which implies that it does but the children are often depicted with animal servants. Odin had Hugin and Munin, Anansi had that army of spiders, or are these some kind of special cases that are the result of some loop hole?
I'm not sure what I said about the Panther Queen, and you didn't quote me directly. It's also possible (given it' legendary status) that the interaction between her and Anansi pre-dated Oberon's edict.
Having servants is different than slaves. I suppose one could argue the point on pets either way. But my dog seems happy enough, getting food, shelter and affection. Maybe Hugin and Munin feel the same. Maybe the spiders worship Anansi. Maybe Oberon is too arrogant to include animals. Lots o' possibilities here.
Here is a question that's being rolling around in my head for a while now. Considering your 'all things are true' policy have you given any thought to how you would approach the 'life after death' aspects of the mythologies you've introduced? I mean did slain Viking warriors really join Odin in Valhalla or mummified Pharaohs join Anubis beyond the western horizon? How would this work in relation to Oberons non-interference edict? I'm not asking you to give me the Gargoyles version of every afterlife myth in existence or even to set out anything in stone, I just want your perspective on the subject that I've been pondering.
My gut reaction, based on Dante as much as anything, is that people go where their souls truly want to go. Since it's voluntary, though not necessarily consciously so, there's no conflict with Oberon's edict.
I noticed in the Gathering Part One, a Pegasus was among those that were coming to attend, was there ever a plan to place Pegasus or Unicorns into the series?
Well, by your own admission we showed a Pegasus in Gathering One. And I believe we showed a unicorn in M.I.A.
1.Are the preferred forms of Puck and the other children of oberon illusions? The reasoning is that you said that when the children of oberon transform they lose their powers so are their preferred forms where they utlize their power illusions?
2.Was the deathworm an illusion/glamour?
1. No. Transformations, not illusions.
2. No. Ditto.
Does alex or merlin have enough fay blood in them to mate with non-compatible species?
I'm really not sure I understand the question.
If they transform into another species than they can mate. They have enough "fay blood" to theoretically transform, but it also requires extensive training. And more training for them than for the average Child of Oberon.
Where do Oberon and his kind come from? Did the just materlize out of nothing, or did they just develop differently then humans or gargolyes, from magick instead of animals if you follow that line of thinking?
Is oberon in charge because he is the most powerful, linage , the oldest, or respect?
Which is the oldest of the three races?
When refered to as a child of Oberon, does that mean that they are just a memeber of the third race and use it in a metaphor sense? Or are they all related to Oberon in some way or another?
In the animated series, both aliens and magick were introduced. Does Oberon and his kind know of aliens and possilbe vist other worlds, could there possible be other beings similar to Oberon on other planets?
There isn't one question here that hasn't been asked and answered before and is easily accessible in the "Children of Oberon, The" ASK GREG archive. Not one. And yet, here I go again...
1. The Children evolved from creatures of pure magic such as the Will-O-The-Wisp seen in "Pendragon".
2. There is definitely an element of lineage in his leadership role, as he is the son of the previous ruler Mab. But the main reason is power. He managed to depose the powerful Mab. He's the most powerful... as far as we know.
3. As I've said before, I don't know, but I lean toward Gargoyles first, humans second and the Children third.
4. They are not literally Oberon's children and they are not all related to him or even all younger than he is. When Mab was in charge they were all called Mab's children.
5. All things are true. But Oberon's power is tied to the magicks generated by our planet. He'd lose considerable power by traveling offworld.
If Oberon were to be killed, or even removed from rulership of Avalon, would the third race be freed from his Law, or not? (I know this seems like a "duh" question, but I thought I'd ask and be sure)
It depends on who takes over.
Possibly starting a debate...
Galvatron> Umm... "western"-centric because Greg made western deities such as those of the Greeks or the Norse be children of Oberon? Do you think that Athens is somehow located to the *east* of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Mecca?
I assure you, it's not. :-)
Anyway, the Greeks, Norse, whatever had their deities be finite creatures which began their lives within the universe. There's a difference between that and a supposedly infinite God which *created* the universe. I can imagine the monotheists being upset if they discovered their god was a fay - if The Infinite proved finite, only one of many. But the Norse and the ancient Greeks already believed that there existed many gods. Why be too upset at discovering a couple more they hadn't heard about?
Don't you feel it's alittle bit western centric making the god of the Greeks, Norse and all the other "pagan cultures" Children of Oberon who are no better than the non-corporeal beings of scifi while the God of Judaism, Islam, Christianity is actually the creator of the universe? I mean it's like saying that they're stupid for getting suckered in by the Children while we're smart for actually worshipping the true God.
Well, first off ALL THE GODS you mentioned are "Western Culture" gods. All of them. So it's hardly Western centric -- beyond the fact that we got more western culture into the show period.
Second, I have never confirmed or denied the existance of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic GOD in the series. I have left that to every individual character and viewer's view of the universe. So I've hardly given the Abrahamist religions priority over the old "pagan cultures".
Finally, not to split hairs, wow, you got me. I've made fictional characters out of the gods of myth. Shocking.
Questions regarding three of the Fair Folk
1. After the Wierd Sisters were banished by a simple parlor trick, they rather easily accepted the ARchmage's suggestion for help. Why that as opposed to just using Avalon's magic to destroy the clan?
Why put that much trust in a single human?
Did they even hedge their bets with attempts of their own to remove the clan?
2. When Odin went through his entire deal of getting his eye back, why didn't he, at one point, attempt identifying himself as Odin before threatening a Gargoyle's protectorate? It seems he'd tried everything but the truth before threatening Elisa... and then the truth at the same time, so what really could it have cost him to identify himself before going to threats?
3. While Oberon may have seen himself as being well in the right for wanting to rid Avalon of the mortals, why didn't he think to identify himself as Oberon: Rightful Lord of Avalon? Seems to be pretty much an obvious thing that he may have missed.
Basing this next question on the idea that Avalon wants the humans and Gargoyle clan to remain (or else why bring the world tour group back to Avalon just in time?). Why did Avalon obey Oberon's commands to attack Goliath, Angela, and Gabrial?
1a. Well, I could say, "Why not?" But the not-quite-as-short answer had to do with their own banishment from the island by Oberon. By becoming "servants" to the Archmage, it enabled them to embark on the island at his command. Otherwise, how do they attack the Magus, et al, when they're forbidden to set foot on the island. There's also a longer answer and a very long answer, but I'm not getting into those now.
1b. They didn't.
1c. They have three plans in play and removing the clan is only a part of each.
2. Chalk it up, as he did, to recent inexperience at dealing with mortals.
3. I believe he did.
3a. That's a big assumption. The Island didn't bring the travellers back. To return to Avalon, the travellers use a spell. In any case, what the island wants and needs, doesn't change the fact that the island is soaked in magical energy, which Oberon is a master at utilizing.
In the Gargoyle universe, did Ragnarok already happen? Or is Fenrir still waiting for dinner...
A Ragnarok happenned. Maybe not THE Ragnarok.
What is the true form of the Children of Oberon? Anything close to a Will O Wasps?
Not particularly. I think of them as more solid than that. But I'm not sure even they know what their true forms are.
Did Oberon and his children invent the gods they were worshipped as or did humans invent them?
If I'm getting your drift, the answer, I guess, is both.
Mostly, Oberon & Co. just were who they were, and various humans began to treat or worship them as gods.
Occasionally, I think it's possible that a culture had a god or two that one of the Children posed as.
Why can't I sleep?
I've been up since 7 am yesterday. This just isn't fair.
Getting to the *actual* question...(I've looked through the archives, and haven't seen this one. I apologize if I missed it. And even more so If I've previously asked this question but forgot your response because it was a smart-ass one.)
"All things are true" you say, but I would appreciate it if you would clarify this for me:
In your conception of the gargoyles universe, are all "non-mortal" beings of the Fae race, or do you allow for the existence of anthropomorphic personifications?
(My, you do get a lot of Neil Gaimen inspired questions, don't you?)
[And as Aaron seems to have become lax in his posting of webcomic (and related) links...]
Well, I hope you've been able to get some sleep since November 9, 2001...
I guess, and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, I'm not sure how you're defining "anthropomorphic personifications"? How is that different from, say, Anansi or The Stone of Destiny?
Anansi is definitely a "Child of Oberon." Not literally his kid, but one of his race. (Note: he's not Fae, which is not a term from the series. I view the Fae as a subset of the Children. Same with the Norse Pantheon and the Egyptian Pantheon, etc.)
Whereas, the Stone of Destiny is either an enchanted object or a Child of Oberon. I've intentionally left that vague for now.
As you've seen, the New Olympians are, strictly speaking, not Children of Oberon, though they are descended from them. Do they count as anthromorphic personifications?
So, I'm not trying to dodge the answer. I just honestly don't know how to define your terms.
Greg writes: Re: The Oberati. "But they can't die of old age, unless they stubbornly insist on maintaining a mortal form until it kills them."
So, if one of Oberon's Children dies in mortal form, that's it? Poof, all gone? No reversion to their normal form, no last-second save? Nada? One second they're walking along, happily playing mortal, somebody drops a lunchbox off the 90th floor, and splat!, no more Child of Oberon?
If so, geez, they really take their lives in their hands every time they take mortal form, don't they?
Don't we all?
In one of the Avalon episodes the Weird Sisters sais something like "We make no bargains with sorserers" so my questions are
1: Is this because they dislike magic using mortals?
2: If so, why?
3: Do the Children of Oberon feel that way in general?
1 & 2. They have a bit of contempt for mortals in general, and probably magic-users in particular -- since they seem to be infringing on the Children's turf.
3. Many do, I'd think.
Is Mab the most powerful being of the third race? If so who is number two? Oberon?
Generally speaking, yes. Mab #1. Oberon #2.
But power is a relative concept. And depends on how or what it's used for. There may in fact be many with more power, but only to do certain things. Or who only would do certain things.
1) You've mentioned that the fae evolved somehow - if so, are they related to the same evolutionary tree that animals belong to? What are their cloest evolutionary but non-third-race relatives and what are they like besides magical?
2) Why precisely did Mab go insane - or was she always that way?
3) If you had to be one of the Third Race, which one of them would you be and why?
1. I've mentioned this before: Will-O-The-Wisps.
2. Pretty much born crazy.
3. What makes you think I'm not?
Time to ramble...
This chapter was written by Adam Gilad. Story Edited by Gary Sperling, and directed by Frank Paur.
As I watch each episode with my family, I've got my journal open in front of me to take notes for these rambles. During the opening credits, my five-year-old son Benny said: "I like Gargoyles." I was very pleased, of course. Then he said, "Can you write down that?" So I did. And so I have.
SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT
Back on the skiff, and Elisa still hasn't QUITE gotten the idea. She still anticipates being back in Manhattan. Like visiting Scotland was an anamoly, but now surely Avalon will send them home. (What did you all think at the time?)
And boy, that girl likes her hot dogs. Make her one with everything, you know?
Our Sea Monster attacks. It's a cool design, based on research that we did. (It happens to look a lot like a pre-historic whale I saw last night on a Discovery Channel special: "Walking with Pre-Historic Beasts".)
I wish we could have found a less generic name for the creature than "Sea Monster". Thunderbird is a cool name -- particularly since I have fond memories of the L.A. T-Birds from Roller Derby telecasts of my youth -- but our research never turned up another name for the Sea Monster.
Keep in mind that though we did research, we also had time constraints. We couldn't keep researching a topic indefinitely. Eventually, we'd have to use what we had and run with it in order for the story and script to be delivered on time.
But I know Gary and Adam did quite a bit of backgrounding for this story. The Sea Monster, Thunderbird, Raven and Grandmother all came from Haida stories -- though we conflated quite a bit, I think. We did always try to be as true as possible to the history and legends we were riffing on.
HEY, WEREN'T THERE FOUR OF YOU?
As the battle with the Sea Monster came to a close, my seven-year-old daughter Erin said: "What about Elisa? Where's Elisa?"
Five seconds later, Goliath surfaces and says pretty much the same thing, before fearing her drowned by shouting "ELISAAAAA!!" (Shades of things to come -- in Hunter's Moon III.)
Speaking of research, the origin of the whole episode was the fact that Totem Poles caught my eye as being a particularly gargoylesque deal. Then we did some preliminary research and found that they weren't carved in anything that seemed to resemble a gargoyle tradition. They were 'carved to honor animal ancestors'. So rather than stretch (or abuse) the truth, we decided to let the characters (and audience) be lured off course by the poles, just as we had been.
Fake GARGOYLES, right here in North America.
In many ways, I think it could be argued that what takes place in this episode is handled or covered in other episodes to come. We have another episode with a 'sea monster'... a more famous sea monster in a certain loch... coming up rapidly in "Monsters". Also in that ep, one of our cast is lost and feared drowned after an early attack by that monster. And much of Nick/Natsilane's dilemma is also re-covered with a more-important recurring character (Peter Maza) in our other Native American-themed episode: "Cloud Fathers". We even do more with a volcano in "Ill Met by Moonlight". On some level I suppose I regret the duplication of efforts. I don't think we usually did this sort of thing.
But I don't regret the episode. I had plans for Raven. Plans for Queen Florence Island. Plans for Nick/Natsilane. I still think the ep has some cool stuff in it. And I think we NEEDED to cover Totem Poles. It was a natural.
HAR with a V. VAR with a D.
I went to a high school in North Hollywood, CA named "Harvard High School". Named after the University. (Some people have incorrectly stated I went to Harvard for college. But I went to Stanford for Undergrad and U.S.C. to get my Masters.)
I don't remember who's idea it was to have Nick be a graduate of Harvard. Might have been mine. Harvard of course is useful as a symbol.
I like Nick/Natsilane. He's got some nice attitude here and a nice shift. Maybe not the most impressive of our so-called "International Heroes". But very likable.
I give a lot of credit to the voice actor for bringing him to life. Gregg Rainwater was brought in by our Voice Director Jamie Thomason. Gregg was terrific. We used him again in Cloud Fathers, but I've used him many times since Gargoyles. I've even written parts with Gregg in mind. He was Jake Nez in Max Steel. And I cast him as Jake MacDonald in 3x3 Eyes. He always brings incredible humanity to a part, I think. Heroic, but real.
THAT'S NOT A CROW
It's a raven. Our second Trickster makes his first appearance. Of the four (Puck, Raven, Anansi and Coyote), Raven was the guy we gave the most evil bent to.
I like all the shape-shifting he does. (Though when he flees at the end, I wanted him to flee in his bird form, not his Raven-Goyle form.) I also like how he lies by using pieces of the Truth.
Raven-Goyle: "There is an evil sorceress named Grandmother. She summoned the monster that you fought."
When he said that, did you believe him?
Of course, Grandmother does have magic power and she did, in a way, summon the Sea Monster.
IT COULD BE WORSE. I ONCE LIVED ON 28TH STREET.
While doing our research, we encountered names of Islands off the Canadian coast like Queen Charlotte Island. So I named the fictional island we'd be using "Queen Florence Island."
Growing up in Woodland Hills, California, I lived on Queen Florence Lane, a street off Queen Victoria Road. Victoria and Florence were the daughters of Michael Curtiz, the director of such films as CASABLANCA. Curtiz, at one time, owned all the property in that area, so he named the two streets after his daughters.
OR so I once was told... by a ghost named Humphrey who tried to convince me that he was Humphrey Bogart, though you could tell by looking at him that he wasn't.
WHO EXACTLY IS THE SICK ONE HERE?
Elisa is so strong so much of the time, that it's kinda sexy to see her vulnerable and feverish.
Notice that Grandmother doesn't use Fairy magic to heal Elisa. She uses Haida medicine. Thus the rule of non-interference is bent not broken.
I like when Nick comes back in and the Fever's broken. And he says just don't tell me you cured her with tree bark.
When she says, "...and roots." His expression is priceless.
I like the lighting in the Volcano scene.
Goliath is so glad to learn that other clans have survived, that he doesn't notice -- in fact defends -- the inconsistencies in Raven's story.
Angela, on the other hand is suspicious. This was done, in part, to further develop her character. She's naive about certain things. Having been raised by humans, she's not inclined to judge them harshly or fear their prejudices. But she's not stupid. Something doesn't smell right and she notices.
For once, Bronx though does not. I chalk this up to the high quantity of magic being tossed around on this dying island. Grandmother is not what she seems. Neither is Raven. Bronx is confused.
Anyway, Goliath speaks to Gargoyles protecting to explain away why "Raven's Clan" can both hate humans and protect them. You get the sense that he understands all too well. Like despite everything, there's a part of him -- a prejudiced part -- that hasn't forgiven the human race for what happened at Wyvern. (Also keep in mind, he was just at Wyvern again, rehashing all those old memories.)
Of course, once Goliath learns that Raven was pulling something, he's furious at the trickster. Playing on his hopes AND his prejudices, Raven has risked G's wrath.
At the end of this scene, the three silent gargs vanish magically.
Erin said: "What happened? What just happened?"
Benny said: "How did they just vanish?"
They know I know the answer. But I resist telling them. It's a touch cruel. What did you guys think?
YOU CAN TAKE THE GIRL OUT OF THE CITY...
Elisa is such a New Yorker. Everything is compared to that. "This sure isn't Central Park."
Anyway, Raven, then a bear, then Bronx and finally Angela and Goliath find Elisa. I love Goliath and Elisa's hug. It's so unselfconscious. They were so worried about each other that they forgot the usual distance that they maintain.
So who did you trust? When the gargs disappeared, that had to indicate that something was up with the Raven-goyle.
So when Goliath tells Elisa that Grandmother is a sorceress, particularly given that Grandmother saved Elisa's life, we all tend to think that G's been duped. Then we spot Grandmother turning into Thunderbird. What did you all think then?
Benny noticed "her ears" and suspected her even before she turned into T-Bird.
THAT'S GOTTA HOIT
A cool moment in the battle against T-Bird is when Goliath rakes the creature with his claws.
Then Angela spots the Illusion. And plays it cool with Raven.
I like Goliath's line to Grandmother: "We live. We do not thrive."
Grandmother than establishes that Raven is a Trickster and that they are both "Children of Oberon". Thus we establish that aspect of our series.
She states that they are forbidden from directly interfering in human affairs. Reinforcing what the Weird Sisters said a few episodes before.
Raven joins the party. The jigs up, but he revels in it. He's got a few decent lines too.
I like "It's so messy."
POOR HORATIO, ALWAYS A BRIDESMAID, NEVER A BRIDE
Elisa more-or-less quotes Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Natsilane, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I've always loved that line.
Anyway, Goliath and Angela depart to fight Raven. They arrive first, but given the fact that Nick had to...
1. Have a final change of heart.
2. Change clothes.
3. Get up to the volcano without wings.
...He makes good time, don't you think?
Raven brings the totem beasts to life. This was always a bit weird. We introduce illusion gargs based on the totem beasts. But then when we bring the totem pole to actual life (or semblance) we have new designs for the woody creatures.
Does everyone see Goliath play dead for that bear?
Raven has a nice exit line here: "This place no longer amuses me."
Neither does this Ramble.
Since all of Oberon's children have a portfolio of sorts (i.e. Puck's a trickster, Anubis is a Death God, etc.), what would Nought have been the "god" of?
Second question, well topic of question, is on Oberon's Children: You described them as descendant from Will O' Wisps, (or at least I think I read that).-
-1- Do you mean descendent from WO'W like we say humans descend from apes- ie. common ancestor closer (in our eyes) to that branch then our own- or do you mean literally?
-2- When did the fae (assumably pre-Oberon's rule) begin having children? Was it a gradual change, or was it an all of the sudden happenstance that was duplicated by others? Basically- did Oberon's children evolve, or come into being via sudden change?
[I am making assumption that WO'W aren't born in a biologically equivalent way to humans. Is that correct?]
-3- Assuming they did not evolve, are there still Oberati around who were not born, who made the jump from WO'W to sentience, instead of being born to it, or are all the current Oberati the product of two (?) parents?
-4- Continuing on the same assumption- when they discovered parentage and birth, was there an explosion in the birthrate, or did they slowly get used to it? [It would be an interesting source of all the half magical bastards of legend.]
-4i- If they did go a little crazy about the possibility and did not confine themselves to their own kind, would there be a very high percentage of humans with trace elements of their magic in their history?
Not the sort of thing to make them wizards or sorcerers, just enough to cause a resonance or immunity that is not recognized as such because it is so common.
-5- While I can imagine an extremely long life span might potentially weaken the parental bond, the newness and 'ownness' of it might strengthen it, (or give it a 'new toy' aspect). Which scenario is closer to fact?
-6- Where the do the WO'W come from? All I now of them is something vague about bright lights darting about luring people from the path, possibly taking on aspects of humans to do so. Did they get so used to appearing as mortals that the jump to taking on a more permanent solid form was a natural thing to slid into?
-7- As just plain ordinanry WO'Ws, do they have mass, or are they only energy?
-7i- ibid for Oberati in 'natural form'?
-7ii- and what of halflings raised fae?
1. We're talking a form of evolution. (Again, humans did not descend from Apes. As you noted they have a common ancestor.)
2. You're assuming facts not in evidence about the Will O'the Wisps. Again, we're talking evolution.
3. Again, the race did evolve in my mind, so I think the question is moot.
4. See above.
5. We're still going down an odd path here.
6. They evolved from the magical soup of Earth. Just as we evolved from the biological soup.
7. I'm guessing the latter, but I won't be held to it.
7i. I'm not sure I understand this question? We've yet to define 'natural forms' for the Children of Oberon.
7ii. See above.
You mentioned that you could only recommend Isaac Asimov's book on Shakespeare (I assume that you mean his Guide to Shakespeare, which I have a copy of) with reservations. I was wondering if you could tell us a little more about those reservations of yours about it.
Boy, I must have been really touchy on September 10th.
Let me just say, it's weird to be looking at these questions, asked early in the morning of 9/11, clearly before the events of the day. (Or at least before people became aware of those events.) Puts everything into perspective, you know.
Anyway, Merlin and Oberon have a thorny relationship to say the least. I can't really answer your question in any more detail at this time. I half regret revealing that Oberon was M's dad.
You've mentioned earlier that Merlin isn't considered one of "Oberon's Children" (by which I mean the Third Race, rather than Oberon's biological offspring). I recently began wondering over the reason for that, i.e., what reasons Oberon has for not classifying him as such.
The only other "halflings" we know of in the Gargoyles Universe at present are Fox and Alex, and we know what criteria Oberon had for deciding whether they could be considered "Children of Oberon" or not. He viewed Fox as human rather than Third Race because she had shown no sign of manifesting any magic (at least, at the time of "The Gathering Part One") and Alex as Third Race because he still had the potential of developing magic.
Now, moving back to Merlin; he clearly did learn how to use magic, so obviously Oberon used a different criterion for classifying him as human rather than "Oberon's Children" than he did with Fox. So my question is, what is this different criterion?
(And don't worry; this isn't one of those "trying to trip you up questions" that you mentioned being unhappy with recently. I'm just genuinely curious about this).
Boy, I must have been really touchy on September 10th.
Let me just say, it's weird to be looking at these questions, asked early in the morning of 9/11, clearly before the events of the day. (Or at least before people became aware of those events.) Puts everything into perspective, you know.
Anyway, Merlin and Oberon have a thorny relationship to say the least. I can't really answer your question in any more detail at this time. I half regret revealing that Oberon was M's dad.
I cant find this in the archive, tho I find it hard to believe it hasnt been asked.
1. Do Oberon's Children reproduce in the biological sense? I mean do they actually pick a mate and have offspring?
2. Demoness asked why Mab disliked Titania, and you said its because Mab thought Titiania was a spoiled brat, and beneath Oberon. So was Titania *raised* as a spoiled brat, meaning she had actualy parents, or did she just have a high opinion of herself (in Mab's eyes).
3. Were the Children of Oberon we have seen (banshee, anansi, etc) mostly offspring of Oberon? Or were most of them there before him?
4. What did Mab call them all? Obviously not 'Oberon's Children'. Or am I wrong?
2. Not answering this now.
4. The Children of Mab.