A Station Eight Fan Web Site
What channel is toon disney?!?! my friend told me it's either 78 or 39 or something like that! is it?! ahh! o i wanna know! ;(
Check your local listings. Newspaper. TV GUIDE. Whatever?
You're not even telling me WHERE you live, even assuming I was inclined to do that research for you, which I'm not.
But I guess the fact that you've been waiting (yeah, right) nearly two years for an answer as to how to tune your tv is punishment enough.
What do you think, guys? Too sarcastic?
Ah, yes. The one where Brooklyn officially becomes Second-in-Command and the Pack become (for lack of a better term) bona-fide supervillains.
First off, I'll say that all the animation errors you mentioned, Greg, were eventually corrected--on my tape Fox's lips do move, and Goliath follows in pursuit of the Coyote head (I don't know about the Dingo hitting his head twice thing; never noticed that...or the glitch with the head/full-robot so that reveal still worked for me).
Anyway, when the Pack robs the bank, I kind of felt it was sort of "pathetic" for them as well, and I somehow KNEW Dingo would comment on it in that way. Actually, Dingo always seemed to be a bit distanced from the rest in one way or another. I mean, in his first appearance he didn't leave too much of an impression on me (I couldn't even remember his name), but then he's revealed to have fled to Europe while Jackal and Hyena stayed behind. Then, in LEADER OF THE PACK, he's Coyote's accomplice from the beginning, and the only one besides the robot to take down a gargoyle during the fight at the studio. Here, even in the first Act, Dingo is the one most disgusted with the Pack's current status, the one who figures out how to turn the tide in the beginning battle (which I'll get to in a bit), and, as Hyena points out, the only one to get away with any money. So even before the titular upgrade, Dingo kind of seemed the odd-man out of the group.
The Pack's battle with the gargoyles is interesting to me mostly because of how thoroughly Broadway trashes Jackal. I mean, he claws him across the chest, and then after recovering from a weapon blast, jumps on Jackal, pounds him a few times, and hurls him against the hull of the Pack Attack vehicle. Neat (in a brutal sort of way).
Well, the Pack gets away and a wounded Goliath is taken back to the Clocktower. Here comes the "it's time to choose a second in command" scene. I just knew that Goliath would try to make Hudson that ('cause that just seems like Goliath), but that eventually it would come down to the Trio.
Now, I had read that original comic in the Disney Adventures magazine that came out back in October of 1994, and it literally referred to Brooklyn as Goliath's Second in Command. So I pretty much knew who'd end up getting the job. However, I hadn't paid much attention to Brooklyn's "displays of leadership" before this episode. He really was the de facto leader of the Trio, and this episode does show his leadership capabilities in handling situations.
Back with the Pack...and Coyote. I just loved its nonchalant (sp?), "May I come in?" A robot with style--definite Xanatos style.
One note, despite the difference in appearance I kind of figured that the mutate shown in Coyote's pitch was Talon. I guess he must have gone back to Xanatos by this time.
I never realized before that Owen was absent from this episode. Having read your memo to Gilad, I now understand why that was--as cool as the guy is, he would have been a bit superfluous.
A month passes (which surprised me--the first major jump of time *within* an acutal episode), and while the Trio are away, Goliath and the rest meet up with the new and improved Pack. I was not really expecting what showed up, even with the robot's pitch. Dingo's initial appearance was a surprise, followed by Jackal, who inspired a sort-of "should have known" feeling when he revealed himself as a cyborg. Then Hyena gave me the creeps with her jumping and cackling, and finally Wolf in all his beastiality showed up and pretty much capped off the whole thing. A lot of fun touches here, the line about the Archmage, Hudson's referring to Wolf as a "forest demon," and Jackal's arm revealing a life of its own.
Dingo distinguishes himself even further with his disdain and horror at his comrades (maybe it's because he was the only one with dignity or humanity left, but I really jived with Dingo in this ep).
Coyote appears, bigger and badder than before, and Hyena starts up her infatuation with him again. It is "sicker than usual" as Jackal says, but also a lot of fun.
When the Trio reconnoiter (sp?) at the Clocktower, it always surprised me that Broadway stopped the most crime that night (and he of course follows it up with his modest "Just gotta know where to look"). I don't know why--maybe I'm a closet size-ist (or my "Brooklyn-fan" mind-set was kicking in).
Wolf still has it out for Goliath. This is a very interesting aspect of his character the more that I think about it. More than any other gargoyle, Wolf has singled out the big "alpha male," if you will. I just find it fascinating right now.
Returning to the Trio, we have a (for me at least) fun scene with Broadway zinging Lex's musing, and Fox's fun commercial. I just love the way Laura San Giacomo read that--just as I love Jeff Bennett's "She's talking to us."
It was at about this point that I FINALLY picked up on the "game" X&F were playing. Again, style for the both of them. And even though I noticed the recycling of "the edge" line, it still worked for me. "The edge" seems like something in which Xanatos places great interest.
Brooklyn displays his leadership qualities by his cool-headedness and capable planning (and you just knew Lex was going to try to fly in there right of the bat--hey, it's the Pack!). It didn't hit me until later viewings just how well Brooklyn planned that--divide the enemy's forces, impair their primary sense (vision), and free trapped comrades during the confusion.
The battle itself had some memorable occurances. As strange as Jackal's arm was, Hyena beats him (and the rest of the Pack) in the "unnerving" catagory with the way her fingers bend backward, her leg rotates completely, and her limbs become insectian (is there such a word?--who cares now?). Dingo impresses me yet again by how STRONG his head is. He crashes through the roof without a helmet and is just momentarily stunned.
I actually got that Wolf's features became more feral when he got into a "battle rage" but, yeah, the way it was handled I kind of felt that was just me rationalizing the change than realizing it. Maybe a "morphing" scene would have helped. I don't know.
I love how they take out Coyote. Especially when Goliath crushes the head (that's just that sick, twisted part of me again).
I actually didn't mind Morgan's line. Seemed kind of fun to me. Of course, that just may be the way Kieth David reads it.
Brooklyn is made Second in Command. Are we surprised? No. Are we happy? Speaking as a Brooklyn fan--OH YEAH!
And the Xanatos (or is it Fox) Tag. I love Xanatos' cheer over the fact that Fox is his equal.
"Care to play again?" That line always makes me smile, even if it's only at its sheer audacity.
Personally, I kind of liked that the Pack was "upgraded." I mean, they were tackling "supernatural" creatures, why not even the playing field a little?
I don't know whether you know this or not, Greg, but UPGRADE has become another episode that Toon Disney will not show. I can only guess it's because a building blows up (never mind the fact that it's abandoned, barely taller than five stories, and such a throwaway occurance that it wasn't even brought up in the ramble). I wish they'd just grow up.
Anyway, fun episode.
I'm hoping that by now, Upgrade is back in the rotation. I think someone told me that it was.
I'm also glad that most of the most glaring animation errors were fixed. It's definitely a fun episode and packed with stuff.
And "Care to play again?" is way up there for me in the category of lines that are both funny and chilling.
My ramble on "Upgrade".
I'll confess, for a start, that "Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes, due mostly to the fact that it seemed much more like a half-hour "slugfest" than is generally the case with "Gargoyles" (although, given that we're dealing with the Pack here, I suppose it's inevitable - they're not the most subtle antagonists out there, after all). But it had some parts of it that I rather liked.
The transformations of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf definitely freaked me out. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I tried to believe, for a while, that Jackal and Hyena were simply wearing fancy mechanical armor, but the evidence against that was too strong; I had to face the facts, in the end, and realized that they'd become cyborgs. And that definitely chilled me. (In Wolf's case, I didn't even have the option of finding an alternative explanation; it was too obvious that he'd been mutated.) Those three had permanently changed, on the physical level, from what they'd been in "The Thrill of the Hunt". They were no longer fully human. In fact, to me, the real significance of their alterations in "Upgrade" wasn't what you'd pointed out (they need to be upgraded so that it won't be too easy for the gargoyles to take them down - though I did see that there) but rather the way that the three of them were growing less human, their physical transformation being almost an outward sign of their increasing degeneracy.
By contrast, I liked Dingo's refusal to become physically upgraded, and horror at what his teammates had done to themselves. In fact, that was definitely when I began to like Dingo, as opposed to seeing him as just another member of the Pack (as he'd been to me up until then). (It certainly echoed my response to their transformations, which, I suspect, was how most of the audience was similarly responding). I wasn't surprised, therefore, when he was no longer with the Pack in "Grief" afterwards, or when he was shown seeking to "go straight" in "Walkabout". This was definitely the point where we see the "break with Eastcheap" (I chose that particular phrase inspired by your idea of Dingo's real name being Harry Monmouth, and the parallel is definitely there - though I might add that I don't see any of his former Pack-mates being a Falstaff-figure - more on the level of Falstaff's associates like Bardolph or Pistol, perhaps, but not scaling the heights of comic genius of Sir John himself - not that they were meant to.)
We also see the definite introduction (though it'd been hinted at in "Leader of the Pack") of Hyena's interest in Coyote, which has to count as the most bizarre relationship in "Gargoyles"; even Jackal gets nauseated by it, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redesigning Goliath's features in his stone sleep.
One side-note: re Hyena's wondering aloud whether gargoyles taste like chicken. I've sometimes wondered why the phrase is "tastes like chicken" as opposed to "tastes like beef" or "tastes like pork", or "tastes like turkey". Just one of life's little mysteries, I suppose.
On the gargoyles' side, we get to see Brooklyn becoming the new second in command. I will admit that I honestly hadn't wondered about that issue until the episode came out. (I've occasionally wondered if Goliath didn't pick one before this episode had anything to do with it having last been filled by Demona, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.) I did think that Brooklyn fitted the role well, and liked the bit at the end where he admits that he's not in that big a hurry to take Goliath's place. And where Goliath offers the role to Hudson, but Hudson declines it.
I still get a kick out of Fox's little public service announcement: "Don't 'Pack' it in. Take the train." Pretty clever of her.
I don't find Officer Morgan's remark that troublesome; in fact, I found it quite amusing.
Incidentally, Xanatos's remark at the end about having found a true equal in Fox reminds me of your analysis of Theseus, where you saw him as having found his equal in the Amazon Queen Hippolyta/Antiope. It makes me wonder whether you'd included a little of your perception of Theseus and Hippolyta in Xanatos and Fox (whether consciously or otherwise). Come to think of it, there's even a slight connection between the two couples, via "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Taking your points in reverse order:
One of the great ironies of the series is that the one character who truly builds a healthy relationship (prior to Broadway & Angela in "The Journey") is Xanatos. The BAD GUY.
Heavily influenced by "The Warrior's Husband" and "The Bull from the Sea", I do see Theseus and Antiope as being true equals and the correct match.
But I'm not sure that's influencing X & Fox so much as that ANY great man would WANT a great woman, not a trophy or showpiece or weak link. Xanatos would no more settle for a weak wife than he'd want Owen to throw a judo practice.
By the same token, Goliath loves and respects Elisa and Broadway loves and respects Angela. They are equals.
Maybe it's just the way I think the world should work.
"Tastes like chicken" has entered the vernacular, I think. I first heard it in reference to Rattlesnake meat, and at the time that may have been someone's sincere way to describe what the serpent tastes like.
But since then, I've heard the phrase applied to almost any exotic carnivorous matter. I've never heard beef, pork or turkey used the same way.
The degeneracy of Wolf, Hyena and Jackal was definitely part of our intent.
One more thing! I love the the shows! can you just tell me what channel Disney Channel is on??? thanx! ;)
Check your local listings. I have no idea.
ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE NEW GARGOLES ACTION FIGURES FOR 2002?
ALSO ANY MEW MAGAZINES AND EPOSIDES THIS YEAR?
I have no control over any of this stuff. NOT UP TO ME!!
Can't you move the show to like...channel 20, in canadian time setting....thing... well, it's just that my family dosnt have "Disney Channel" and i used to watch Gargoyles when i was little, and i remember, me and my little brother used to tape all the shows! i loved the show until it went off, and i never got around to finding out why it got off...well, this is my first time craving to see the show again! it's just that i found out that the shows going to be starting again from the beginning, and i dont have that channel! :( i'm 14 years old right now, and i'm totally getting into mythical creatures and things like that, and i hardly know anything like that...
Cant you just change it into some...common channel? I mean, it could get you more people to watch it, rather then getting better cable JUST to watch the show..(hope i'm not offending you!! i just really loved that show!!) lol, well, i hope my plea's got to you, you're probably like.."R....ight, what a weirdo!" heh, well, im no weirdo..anyways...ya..! k, gotta split! ;)
You're not a weirdo, you simply don't seem to understand that I have absolutely no control over when and where the reruns air.
Who is the Gargoyles Arch Nemisis?
There isn't just one: Xanatos, Demona and Thailog all come immediately to mind. But I never tried to limit the possibilities.
This is an interesting exercise for me. One which mostly demonstrates how few movies I get to see.
The Oscar Noms came out and are in today's paper. So I'm going to list my choices.
But here's the main rule. I can only choose from movies I've actually seen. The result is that there are entire categories (including at least one major category) that I can't vote in at all:
Foreign Language Film
Of course, I reserve the right to make changes later if I see more movies. Also, these are NOT predictions. I'm not trying to guess who the Academy will chose. I'm simply stating my preferences...
PICTURE: THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING
Haven't seen Mystic River or Seabiscuit. Didn't care for the tiresome Master & Commander. I enjoyed Lost in Translation, a movie which snuck up on everyone, but I don't think it was quite as good as everyone said. I'm sorry that The Cooler didn't get nominated, but in any case it's hard not to vote for LOTR: Return of the King over either Master or Translation. I think that both of the first two movies were better than the third, but as I've stated, this isn't a Return of the Jedi scenario. This is an amazing movie on every level. The bar was set incredibly high by Jackson's first two films. And he still made it over by any reckoning.
ACTRESS: Keisha Castle-Hughes, WHALE RIDER
Well, I haven't seen In America, 21 Grams, Monster or Something's Gotta Give. So Keisha was my only option. But that's okay. I wasn't too wild about the 2-D movie, but the kid was great. Doubt she'll win, but, hey, I'm routing for her.
ACTOR: Johnny Depp, PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN: THE CURSE OF THE BLACK PEARL
Haven't seen Mystic River, Cold Mountain or House of Sand and Fog. That leaves Depp in Pirates and Murray in Translation, both terrrific comic performances. I'm choosing Depp, the more obvioulsy comic turn, because (a) comedy is rarely rewarded by the Academy and like to break that barrier and (b) as good as Murray is, he's kinda playing himself. But this was a VERY tough choice for me.
SUPPORTING ACTOR: Alec Baldwin, THE COOLER
Haven't seen 21 Grams, In America, Mystic River or the Last Samurai so all that leaves is Alec in Cooler. But even more than Keisha above, I'm thrilled to have Alec as my choice. I saw The Cooler this past Saturday and REALLY loved it. William H. Macy and Maria Bello are also brilliant in it, but I'm not at all surprised that Baldwin was nominated. He's a great actor.
DIRECTOR: Peter Jackson, RINGS: KING
Haven't seen Mystic River or City of God. Didn't care for Master & Commander. Liked Lost in Translation, but Jackson's efforts on Return of the King are stunning.
ADAPTED SCREENPLAY: Walsh, Boyens, Jackson, LOTR: ROTK
Havent's seen American Splendor, City of God, Mystic River or Seabiscuit, leaving Rings my only option. But again, I like the screenplay so it's a fine choice. Looking forward to the extended version though.
ORIGINAL SCREENPLAY: Coppola, LOST IN TRANSLATION
Haven't seen Barbarian Invasions or Dirty Pretty Things or In America, which leaves me a choice between Lost and Finding Nemo. No contest. Nemo is a cute little movie, but it's far from being my favorite Pixar script. Translation is fascinating.
ART DIRECTION: Hennah, Lee, LOTR: ROTK
Haven't seen Girl with a Pearl Earing, Last Samurai or Seabiscuit. Which leaves me with a contest between LOTR and M&Commander. This was actually a tougher call. I didn't care much for M&C, but it looked damn good. But I think LOTR was a greater overall achievement.
ANIMATED FEATURE: FINDING NEMO.
Haven't seen Brother Bear or Triplets of Belleville. So that leaves Nemo only. Again, not a brilliant film, but it has some brilliant stuff in it, so I can vote this way with a vaguely clear conscious.
CINEMATOGRAPHY: Boyd, MASTER AND COMMANDER: THE FAR SIDE OF THE WORLD
Haven't seen City of God, Cold Mountain, Girl with a Pearl Earing or Seabiscuit, which leaves only M&C, which again looked great. So, fine.
SOUND MIXING: Boyes, Semanick, Hedges, Peek, LOTR: ROTK
Haven't seen Samurai or Seabiscuit, but it leaves three great choices, M&C, ROTK and Pirates. I'm gonna give the edge to ROTK. I seem to be sweeping with them. Can't help it. Note that Christopher Boyes is up for bother Pirates and Rings. That's pretty good odds, but an even bigger bummer, I'd imagine, if he loses.
SOUND EDITING: Boyes, Waters, PIRATES
Boyes is looking good for some award. Sound editing on Nemo, Pirates and M&C were probably all great. But I have a softer spot for the fun of Pirates. One of the few categories where I HAVE seen all of the nominees.
ORIGINAL SCORE: Shore, LOTR: ROTK
Haven't seen Big Fish, Cold Mountain or House of Sand & Fog, which leaves Howard Shore's brilliant ROTK work and Nemo, which was just okay.
ORIGINAL SONG: "Into the West", Walsh, Shore, Lennox, LOTR:ROTK
Well, I'm a big Annie Lennox fan to begin with, and the song was very moving to me, so this is an obvious choice. Throw in the fact that I haven't seen Mighty Wind, Cold Mountain, Cold Mountain or Triplets and it was also my only option. The good news is that so far, there hasn't been a category where I have declined to pick a winner because I only had one option. So far, even in categories with only one option, I've genuinely liked that one option.
COSTUME DESIGN: Dickson, Taylor, LOTR: ROTK
Haven't seen Girl with Pearl, Samurai or Seabiscuit, which again leaves M&C and LOTR. Went with LOTR for cause. Great costumes across the board.
FILM EDITING: Selkirk, LOTR: ROTK
Haven't seen City of God, Cold Mountain or Seabiscuit, leaving YET again M&C and LOTR. No brainer. Half the time in the M&C battle scenes I couldn't keep basic track of who was doing what.
MAKEUP: Taylor, King: LOTR:ROTK
Another of the categories where I have seen all the nominees. Pirates had great make-up, truly. And I came very close to giving this one to Pirates. But just that one Orc was so damn good, and he was just the tip of the iceberg. M&C is also in the running, but why?
LIVE ACTION SHORT FILM: "Two Soldiers"
I haven't seen the other four options, but I have seen Two Soldiers, based on a William Faulkner short story that just happens to be my all time favorite short story ever. I made a point of seeing this short and was not disappointed. It's really great.
VISUAL EFFECTS: Rygiel, Letteri, Cook, Funke, LOTR: ROTK
And the last of three categories where I've seen all the nominees. Any other year and Pirates (but not M&C) would have challenged for this award. But ROTK, right?
So what's the final tally...
11 for LOTR: ROTK, including picture, director, song, score, screenplay and a half-dozen tech and craft awards. I think that's a clean-sweep. And I'm not generally a sweepy kinda guy. But the true geek in me has been awakened by this trilogy.
2 for Pirates, including Depp's brilliant performanceand a tech award.
1 for WHALE RIDER's kid actress.
1 for THE COOLER's Alec Baldwin.
1 for LOST IN TRANSLATION's keen screenplay by Sofia Coppola.
1 for FINDING NEMO. Best animated feature, won perhaps by default, though I liked the movie.
1 for MASTER & COMMANDER for cinematography, another default win perhaps, though it certainly looked gorgeous.
1 for "Two Soldiers", a personal favorite that may be the award I'm most routing to be right about.
And then five categories where I couldn't vote at all.
what channel is toondisney
It's a cable network. Check local listings.
in "Revelations" Mace Malone tells Matt that Xanatos provided the Illuminati with some information (the gargoyles stuff)
1. did the Illuminati know that gargoyles existed before Xanatos informed them of the Manhatten Clan?
2. did the Illuminati know about the Manhatten Clan before Xanatos told them?
3. how much about the Manhatten Clan does the Illuminati know? obviously they know of their connection to Elisa Maza, but do they know more things like their names, a bit about them, their pasts?
thanx alot Greg!
1. Still existed or ever?
2. Maybe not. Though reports in the Tattler would have raised a red flag for Duval if brought to his attention.
3. Probably more than would make us comfortable.
Hey Greg! Long time fan first time posting! I was wondering, you said that Gargoyles is the total property of Disney. Does that mean that even though you are the creator, you can't do anything with the series unless they give the okay? If so, does that mean your unable to buy ALL the rights to the show? If not, do you ever plan to reair the show with all new episodes in the future? The reason I ask these questions is because Disney was stupid in pulling the plug on the series just because they wanted to move on to something new. But if your able to buy the rights, I'm sure there's more than enough studio's out there who are so eager for ratings that they'll finance the reintergration of the show back to television. The WB would definatly welcome the show to it's programing as it was aired on that station in New York. Is there anyway that, at the very least, you can create a book series of Gargoyle novels that bring a close to the storylines that were never closed while the series was on the air? I just think that if Gargoyles will never make a big TV come back that comic books or novels should be made in it's place that bring a big close to the universe once and for all. Well... an official close because we all know that Gargoyles will always live on in fanfiction. That's all I guess. Thanx for writing such a wonderful series. One more questions, although it's not documented, in your most best thought opinion since the Gargoyles are the guardians of Manhattan, how do you think they reacted when, upon waking up from their stone sleep, they saw a big gapeing hole and a huge smoke screen on what used to be the world trade center on September 11th??? I, and alot of the fans, would really like to know.
Yes. Again. Disney owns 100% of Gargoyles. They don't sell their properties, and even if they did -- WHICH THEY DON'T -- the cost would be way prohibitive.
I don't know if they were stupid to pull the plug after Goliath Chronicles. I'm not sure they exercised much smarts in pushing me out the door prior to Chronicles, but that's a VERY complicated story and in any case, should be attributed to individuals who no longer even work for the Mouse. Including me.
I also think, unfortunately, that you're wrong about other networks like the WB wanting the show. It's a moot issue, because Disney won't sell, but I see no indication that there is a single network out there looking for something like Gargoyles. No indication at all. Gargoyles has the greatest fans in the world, and I'm hoping that the DVD release will make enough of a splash and attract fans, both old and new, to wake people up to the possibilities that the series represents.
In the meantime, I haven't given up trying to get the property up and running again in some way, shape or form, and publishing (comics or novels) is something I'm extremely interested in.
As for the fans, the best thing they can do -- at least until the DVD's release -- is to come to the Gathering (our annual Gargoyles Fan Convention), this August, 2004 in Montreal.
Check out their website:
The more fans that show up to the convention, the greater our collective voice, the more likely that Disney takes notice.
Finally, I've answered the 9/11 question many times. Check the archives.
Dear Greg, great job you deserve more compliments than i can offer, but my question is why were the gargyles from the different regions of the earth so different except for the japanese and your staring characters? well thanks for your time if i get it. bye
I think the Ishimura clan was just as different from the gargs as many of the Mayan clan. I'm not going to get caught up in migration patterns or genetic explanations that are just going to trip me up later. In any case, most of the differences you observed are fairly superficial anyway.
Hey Greg your the best, I got two questions.First i was wondering is toondisney airing all the gargoyle episodes that were fully created?Second is if not are any episodes available for sale that aren't shown on toondisney?
Toon Disney, as I understand it, rarely airs "Deadly Force". That episode was available on one of the original VHS tapes that Buena Vista sold. It's not that easy to find anymore, but hopefully we'll have a DVD coming out this year...
is Lexington going to become a Crazed maniac in the future like in the episode "Future Tense"
Who's to say?
Well, I am I guess. But I'm not. So who's to say?
In the notes that you recently printed for "Double Jeopardy", you mentioned in the outline, just after Thailog emerges from his box for the first time in front of Sevarius and his mercenaries, that this is the last time in the series that we would be seeing that particular band of mercenaries. Was there something ominous intended about this statement - as in, hinting at just what happened to them after Thailog got out?
I don't think I could be any less subtle, frankly. Use your imagination.
Hey Greg, quick question…
Has either of Oberon's and Titania's biological children appeared in any of Shakespeare's plays? (Why didn't I think of this years ago?)
P.S. I mean the children they had together.
I'm not saying.
I was reading through the archives and I found posts on the subject of Odin's horned helmet versus the more historically accurate hornless helmets of Hakon and your comments that perhaps the stereotypical vision of Vikings being clad in horned helmets was inspired by the Norse gods rather than Norse mortals and I remembered this bit of trivia you might find interesting, While Vikings never wore horned helmets into battle they were sometimes used in religious ceremonies. At any rate, I loved the design you guys gave to Odin. It's just as I always imagined the big guy. I would have been disappointed if you had given Odin a more earthly Viking look just as much as I would have been Hakon had had horns like Marvel's Loki (how can he stand up with those things?). It just seems pointless to me to debate historical accuracy in relation to supernatural beings, I mean if you say Odin shouldn't have a horned helmet because real Vikings didn't have them you might as well say Anubis shouldn't have a jackal-head because real Egyptians didn't have jackal-heads.
Agreed. Cool bit of trivia, by the way.
The (currently) new ramble! Here's my own (which I also posted in the Comment Room).
After watching the "Previously..." recap and hearing Sevarius' mention about cloning, and then seeing the title, I pretty much figured out what the episode was going to be about. Consequently, I kind of knew that the gargoyle on the battlements at Xanatos' place wasn't really Goliath. Still, I was not quite prepared for Thailog, but we'll get to him later on.
The prologue is well written, and does fit in well with the established continuity...except for the date it's given in the computer files. Even allowing that Xanatos did not get released from prison until after Oct. 31, when did Elisa get shot, and how long before she was able to walk on crutches? Still, I'm willing to let it slide. Besides, it was cool how Goliath smashed the robot's head (you can see the red eye-bulb pop out).
The coloring error you saw, Greg, concerning Thailog's arm in the attack on Lex and Broadway, seems to have been corrected in later airings (at least it's black on my tape).
That was one thing that surprised me--seeing the flash in Elisa's windshield NOT being a copy of Goliath, but something with black skin, red eyes, and a white something (hair of course, but I only saw a glimpse).
I was curious as to what Sevarius was doing with the mercenaries, and why he seemed to be stealing from his employer. I think I may have decided to wait until the end to draw any conclusions.
When Owen mentioned the Emir, I remembered THE EDGE. I didn't expect the dude to actually show up in the series (I was still a bit naive (sp?)), and instead thought more along the lines that this would be a running gag in the series. A sort of background business thing that Xanatos would always be dealing with.
It is interesting to see Xanatos in a semi-vengeful attitude. It's just something you're not used to seeing from this guy. I liked hearing the list of his "enemies" for some strange reason. Just nice to know that Xanatos isn't so untouchable.
And Owen even gets to make a couple of digs at Xanatos--not just the one at the end, but the "plan you've neglected to mention" and cryptically referring to Xanatos Enterprises as "a certain large consortium" (sp?).
Even though Goliath laughed maniacally well-enough in ENTER MACBETH, I still got a kick out of Hudson's line. A little nod to the fact that Goliath has a tendency to be...stoic, perhaps.
And then we get another glimpse at Thailog. And he actually managed to look scarier than Goliath, IMHO. Not a bad trick. I hadn't thought until reading the memo that something...unpleasant may have happend to the mercenaries here. This new thought rather intrigues me (in a morbid sort of way).
The Gen-U-Tech traking bracelet makes a reappearance. Gotta love continuity.
Seeing the electronic log of Thailog's creation proved to be quite fascinating for me. Mostly because of the mention of "accelerating (sp?) the normally slow gargoyle growth process." I liked the added explanation here and the nod towards the coloring change. On the whole, it made everything easier to except, and allowed me to sit back and have fun watching the episode develop.
Like many folks, I loved the whole Xanatos-Sevarius confrontation. Neither is really aware of what the other is thinking, but believes they are. And when Sevarius started to cut loose (and then undercut it with the whispered question of his quality of performance) I laughed out loud. That and the look on Xanatos' face are still amusing (vengeful, confused...you see a lot of sides to Xanatos that you normally don't in this episode).
When Goliath finally meets Thailog...I did not expect Thailog to turn out quite the villain he was, despite knowing that he learned everything from Xanatos. Consequently, I was not expecting him to jump Goliath like that. But this made him a lot of fun. And I love the way Thailog sort of hisses out the "s" at the end of "All the old blocks."
When Thailog is talking to Xanatos and Sevarius in the hold of the oil rig, there is a loop of repeated animation that is very noticeable. The odd thing is, the lips actually remain more-or-less in sync with the dialogue.
I love Thailog's lines here. "And waste my life playing 'guardian angel' night after night to a decrepit city, infested with inferior humans?" Just his choice of words says a lot about this guy's outlook on the world. And to this day I keep playing his other line to Goliath in my head from time to time: "I considered caring about you. It took some effort, but I arranged for you to join this party because I planned to share the money with you. But our little...'family reunion' disappointed me, *father*! So I've decided to *hate* you, too." I just love how that throws some of the blame for what happens on Goliath. Man, with this and OUTFOXED, Goliath's been faced with a lot of his shortcomings.
I had no problem with Elisa slipping out of the manacles. I mean, those things weren't like police cuffs that could close in diameter to conform to a prisoner's wrists. Besides, Xanatos' comment was rather fun.
Actually, there were a lot of fun lines in this sequence, and the episode as a whole (of course, they've already been pointed out, so...).
I get a strange kick out of the fact that it's Sevarius who picks up on the idea that could save them all. It's always fun when the villains and heroes wind up on the same side for some reason.
Something I find very interesting whenever I watch this episode: when Elisa and Xanatos think Goliath might be dead, Xanatos actually moves to comfort Elisa! It's just endlessly fascinating to me that in a potential moment of loss, the proferred shoulder to cry on comes from the antagonist. That's one great thing about this series, character was never subverted for the sake of conforming to traditional "roles."
I actually did think that Thailog had died in the fire. I of course would have regretted it--he was a great character, and Keith David's mannerisms were so distinct from Goliath's that I half-wondered if maybe Thailog was voiced by someone else (a thought I had also had concerning Jim Cummings' differnt sound as Darkwing and Negaduck). However, it wasn't until the "reverse-Xanatos tag" that Thailog took an even greater leap upward in my estimation. Learning that Thailog probably survived and was (in Owen's words) "still out there, has the money, is as powerful as Goliath...and smarter than [Xanatos]." That was one of those "shock" moments, and immediately followed up by "Owen, I think I've created a monster." It felt to me like not only had a new villain been unleashed upon the world, but one greater than any that had come before. I actually like seeing the image of Thailog laughing (although recently, I've wondered what the effect would be if his transparent-face suffused the whole screen).
Rambling on Thailog for a moment--it was great how he moved beyond the stereotypical "evil twin" bit. Although his contrast with Goliath is a very compelling aspect of him, he is not confined to that one dimension. He has the tics that are very much his own, and he manages to assert his independence even more when he takes to wearing the armor.
I know, Greg, that you feel every villain should seem, in "that particular encounter" the hero's unltimate enemy. Still, I can't help but feel that the true rank of "archfiend" seems made for the likes of Thailog.
This is another one of those episodes I really enjoy!
My plans for Season Three would have had Thailog really emerge as the Gargoyles primary antagonist. I really wanted to give him a chance to come into his own. Still do.
As you know, Keith, of course, DID perform both roles. In fact his talent was one of the main inspirations for doing Thailog in the first place.
You had questions. Maybe this will clear some of them up. Then again, maybe not.
Friday, October 28th, 1994
Xanatos may anticipate being released by October 31st, the date of his coming pre-trial appearance. [NOTE: The calendar in Xanatos' cell matches neither 1994 nor 1995. It may not even be his.]
Monday, October 31st, 1994
In part, ironically, because both Xanatos and Elisa wish to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos' lawyers and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of receiving stolen property. He is sentenced to six months, including time served, with every possibility that the sentence will be reduced in three months for good behavior.
Tuesday, November 15th, 1994
Owen acquires a DNA sample from Goliath.
Friday, November 18th, 1994
Elisa is shot.
Tuesday, January 3rd, 1995
Elisa is on crutches when Macbeth first attacks castle.
Wednesday, January 4th, 1995
Xanatos is released from prison. Goes home to the castle first. And then stops by Gen-U-Tech.
Hope that helps.
what approximate ages are Gargoyles voice actors like Jeff Bennett, Tress MacNeille, Kath Soucie and Jim Cummings? I can't even find a rough guess at their age on the net.
I don't know. I'm forty and I see them all as peers more or less. Figure they're about 40 plus or minus about ten years.
(I hope saying even that doesn't get me into trouble.)
I don't know if you've heard of this show, but you've worked with some of its staff members on shows like "Men In Black" and "Max Steel- The shows called "Extreme Ghostbusters." It was 1997 spin-off of "The Real Ghostbusters" cartoon. If somehow you were able to bring back "Gargoyles" in the same way, how would you do it? Do you think you'd be able to work around it considering TGC, or would you have someone help you or take the torch? If this possibility did happen, what would your concept of villains be?
I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make regarding Extreme Ghostbusters... I know of the show, know many people who worked on it, but I never saw it. Never saw much of Real Ghostbusters either, actually.
For more info on what I'd do to bring Gargoyles back, check the FAQ for my so-called Master Plan.
As for villains, I don't know how to answer this question generically. Do you have a specific villain you want to know about?
I know that it's impossible, but in your opinion, what would happen if there was a cross-over between your two creations Gargoyles and Max Steel? How would the characters react towards each other?
For starters, credit going where it is due, Max wasn't my creation. I developed the show, but did not create it.
After that, I guess they'd fit together all right. Max is assigned to investigate Gargoyle sightings or something. He's got nano-tech powers. It could be fun.
But it doesn't particularly jazz me.
You know how in most comic books that super-villains end up in mental hospitals for the criminally insane instead of prison? Two examples are Arkham Asylum in the DC comics and Ravencroft in Marvel Comics. Out of all of the Gargoyles' enemies, who would most likely end up in an insane asylum? Fans have to admit that villains like Demona, Dr. Sevarious, Castaway, Thailog, Hyena, Jackal, Proteus and Coldsteel are all nuts! Plus, Wolf and Fang seem to have some issues.
I don't think that either Wolf, Fang, Sevarius, Thailog or Coldsteel are "criminally insane" by its legal definition. I think it's a stretch for Demona, Jackal, Castaway and Proteus as well. That is, all these characters know right from wrong.
Of the characters you named, Hyena and Proteus are the most psychopathic. But I think Proteus knows what he's doing. He just revels in his evil. Hyena, frankly, isn't that bright. She has no control at all, beyond some semi-affection for her brother, i.e. her anchor.
Clearly, many of these characters COULD wind up in someplace Arkhamesque. But that would depend on lawyers and judges and juries. Obviously, the one trial we know that Hyena faced landed her in a regular prison cell right beside Fox. So even for her, a legal argument could obviously be made that she was criminally sane.
Yay! A new episode ramble! Thanks, Greg!
Here are some of my own thoughts about "Double Jeopardy".
The opening one is a rather odd little memory. In the summer of 1995, I spotted an article on "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine (whose name I can no longer remember) discussing what would be done in Season Two; among other things, it included a mention that Goliath's daughter would be introduced into the series. I was quite curious about that, and wondered what she'd be like and how it would be done. And then, when "Double Jeopardy" first aired, and Thailog was treated as Goliath's son in it, I wondered if the article had erred and gotten the gender of Goliath's offspring wrong. (Of course, I know now that it was Angela that the article meant, not Thailog, so that there was no mistake there except on my part.)
In light of the opening flashback, Xanatos must have already started building a whole new set of Steel Clan robots even while he was still in prison, before "The Edge" (especially given that I spotted a whole bunch of those robots in storage, alongside the one that was activated to attack Goliath).
I also liked Owen's "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" line. He really sounded hurt there.
I was interested to notice Renard on Xanatos's suspects list for Thailog's kidnapping, alongside Demona and Macbeth. While I can easily imagine Demona or Macbeth being willing to engage in such a maneuver against Xanatos, I doubt, in light of his rigid code of integrity, that Renard would have done the same (although there is "Golem" to consider, coming up later in the season). Maybe Xanatos believed that the temptation of kidnapping his new gargoyle would have been too much for even his father-in-law to resist.
Sevarius's hamming it up with Xanatos ("Yes! You robbed me of my creation!") was one of the funniest moments in "Gargoyles" for me; certainly the funniest in the episode. (Don't quit your day job, Anton.) And I agree with you about the Dr. Antinori business, by the way. (Also on the subject of Sevarius's overacting, I couldn't help but think that some of his narration in the "clone files" that Lex and Broadway discovered felt almost like a parody of that in a nature documentary, such as the "time for it to leave the nest" line, though I don't know if it was intended that way.)
You no doubt recall how I'd earlier pointed out the similarities between Thailog and Edmund (which I first began to notice after you mentioned Edmund being your favorite Shakespeare character); it occurred to me recently that Thailog also does have a certain similarity to Mordred, especially in many modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend, such as T. H. White. He's Goliath's "illegitimate son", just as Mordred was Arthur's, and his training by his other two fathers, Xanatos and Sevarius, does have (if you're out looking for the parallels) a certain echo of how Mordred, in White's "The Once and Future King", similarly gets trained by his mother Morgause. And the dynamics between Goliath and Thailog, with Goliath initially rejecting his son but then learning that he was wrong to do so, and now reaching out to him - but too late - do remind me of how in White, Arthur similarly initially moves against his son (trying to drown him at birth), but then understands that he was wrong to do so, also makes the attempt to reach out to him, but is coldly rejected by Mordred when he does so. (Come to think of it, Thailog also clearly lusts after both of Goliath's loves, Demona and Elisa, even to the point of combining them in Delilah, just as Mordred lusts after his stepmother Guinevere and attempts to wed her after he usurps his father's throne.)
I've mentioned before the element that I believe makes Thailog an especially great antagonist (the incongruous pairing of Goliath's physical appearance and voice with a thoroughly Xanatosian amorality - though I think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos does, which is also a good touch), so I won't go into that again. It's a bit of a pity that he only turned up twice more in the original series after that ("Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"), although I suppose that if you'd gotten to do more episodes past "The Journey" that we'd have gotten a lot more of the guy.
The ending definitely surprised me; I was expecting Xanatos to reveal that he'd seen to it that he didn't lose the ransom money after all, but instead we got the revelation that Thailog had escaped with it and is out there, happily scheming away, to Xanatos's own alarm. (As I mentioned before, it's particularly of interest to note that this is the last time in the series that Xanatos attempts to make his own gargoyles - and after the way that Thailog backfired on him, who can blame him?)
It's great to have the rambles going again, and I'm looking forward to the ones to come.
I'm afraid we haven't made that much Ramble progress recently, though I know we got past Avalon and into (at least) the beginning of the World Tour.
I think, like your Edmund comparison, your comparison of Thailog to Mordred is very apt. Perhaps moreso. Another bastard, basically. I'm not sure how conscious I was of any of these individuals influences, but I'm fascinated with the archetype of "The Bastard" in literature. Both the quote/unquote good guys (like Theseus, Arthur, Dunois, etc.) and the quote/unquote bad guys (like Edmund and Mordred, etc.) Thailog with his three fathers was clearly designed to be our bastard. And what a great bastard he is.
I've certainly read White's ONCE AND FUTURE KING at least a couple times. And I've lost count how many times I've seen CAMELOT.
How can I get a hold of those scripts that were written for Team Atlantis? All the interviews make it sound like good stuff. I also admit I'll get excited about the straight-to-video release only when I see it on a shelf (not that Disney changes plans once they're announced, right?). If there is any way to get copies (digital or otherwise) please respond with the information. You guys worked too long on it for the stuff to vanish (I read you even did the voice recordings for a dozen and a half episodes). It's a real shame. Thanks for your time. It is appreciated.
As far as I know, there's no way for you to get copies of the scripts. But the DVD release is out there. It's called "Atlantis: Milo's Return" and collects three episodes from the series that never was along with a framing device. Personally, I'm not wild about the frame, but the picture (or rather the three pictures) are pretty cool.
In the episode Golem why did you use a Rabbi to summon the Golem?
Most of the episodes have some mythology behind them. I've heard about golems before, but I've never heard of any myths associating Jewish people with the use of magic. I'm certain that it goes against their religion.
P.S. I looked to see if this question was asked, but I didn't find it in the achieves. If I've missed it could you email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
If you post my question, please remove the "P.S." text.
The Golem of Prague is specifically a Jewish legend, and Rabbi Loew, the Rabbi in the Flashback sequence, is a character of both history and legend -- and he is the traditional summoner of the Golem. I'm fairly certain any cursory search on the word Golem would reveal this.
Like most major religions, Judaism houses a multitude of interpretations, beliefs and practices. I'm Jewish, but I'm sure there are Jews out there who wouldn't agree that I was.
So you're "certainty" is a bit presumptuous.