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Aris Katsaris writes...

You had said that you planned to add a female (and human) love interest for Owen... In what time-period would we have seen her? Gargoyles-2158 or the "present" series?

Greg responds...

Most likely the present. But my plans might have changed if the present series never got picked up and 2158 did. Nothing's final 'til its canon.

Response recorded on March 26, 2000

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Chapter X: "The Edge"

By the end of this episode, everyone is happy.

Both Goliath and Xanatos are afraid they've lost their edge. Both are convinced by the end that they've regained it. Both are at least partially deceiving themselves. [One of the little ambiguities that I love about the Xanatos tags is that one way to interpret them is that David is just full of it. He loses, but claims victory anyway.]

But David is just so lovable in this episode. You gotta love the villain who does NOT penalize his subordinate for beating him in a judo match. And he has such great audacious dialogue (kudos to Michael Reaves and Jonathan Frakes). A few approximate samples:
--"I'm the best friend you have."
--"If you're going to be picky, we won't get anywhere."
--"You're taking this much too personally."
And those were all in one scene. A scene where he's just standing out there awaiting their arrival. I mean, a guy as busy as he is... Is that confidence/arrogance or what?

And he's not afraid to get his hands dirty. Giving X the armor was essential. Up to this point, David had been only the brains. But to be a true reverse-hero, he had to be a warrior as well. Here we showed he had what it takes to mix it up. But always without being stupid. Question: How many of you knew the "red robot" was Xanatos in armor before the tag? Of course, now it seems obvious, but what about the first time you saw this ep?

And yet Elisa "Wouldn't want his karma." What goes around comes around. All that arrogance, had to receive some commeuppance. (Can anyone say Oberon?)

One thing that I thought was TOO OBVIOUS was the Steel Clan theft of the EYE OF ODIN. I would have preferred if that scene had been more ambiguous in Act One. Preferred that the audience maybe think that the Robot WAS Goliath, so that when Matt takes aim at the cliffhanger, we think he's going to shoot Goliath. The cliffhanger doesn't really play as is. Only Elisa is fooled, not the audience.

Everyone wonders why Xanatos donated the Eye to the Museum of MODERN Art. (Maybe because it had mediocre security, but adequate security cameras.) But what I want to know is whether or not Edvard Munch's "The Scream" is really at that museum?

Speaking of THE EYE, I may have mentioned that this was actually the idea of the Disney interactive video game people. We wanted to be synergistic, and I kinda liked the whole idea, so we put it into the show. It was another of our step-by-step additions to the continuity. Intro it as a minor maguffin. A dewdad for Xanatos. And build from there, with the eventual plan to actually make it Odin's eye. At some point in all this, we completely forgot that the idea came from the interactive people. We went back to see them months and months later and were reminded. Luckily the concepts hadn't gotten too far away from each other. But the design did. Unfortunately, our design wound up looking a bit Egyptian for my tastes. The Interactive design had a great Raven motif. (Oh, well.)

New characters (more or less):

A cameo by Derek.

The first mention of the Emir.

The first appearance of Travis Marshall. Michael and I worked this guy out together. He wouldn't be one of those fluff journalists. He'd be old school. He wouldn't whitewash David, just because the guy was a rich man. We always made sure to give Travis that edge. And still, I always felt we underused him. In this episode, Matt gives him a lift in Derek's chopper. Matt says, "You owe me one." Eventually, I'd like to see Matt collect on that favor in a story focusing on the two of them.

And speaking of Matt...

The first real appearance of Matt Bluestone. This guy was largely Michael Reaves' creation. (Although the "Bluestone" name was one of our earlier choices for Elisa's last name. After Chavez, Reed and Chavez, but before Maza.) At first, I admit I was dubious about him being a conspiracy nut. But it so worked. And this was the first time I ever worked with Tom Wilson. He's just so great. And so damn funny to have in the booth. (I love him in FREAKS & GEEKS.)

Matt & Elisa discuss the Illuminati, UFO's and Loch Ness. I love how dubious she is, with her inside joke: "Believe me, the world's strange enough as it is." Little does she know.

But my favorite thing about Matt is that ultimately he's a healthy influence on Elisa... "Maybe that's when you need one [a partner] the most." He's just a really good guy.

As usual, characters keep their promises. Matt vows to find out what those creatures (the gargs) are. And by God, eventually he does.

More on continuity...

Elisa's only JUST coming back to work. In cartoon terms, the fact that we waited this long after her gunshot wound, was a relative eternity. The height of cartoon realism. It doesn't seem like very long, but months passed between the original airings of DEADLY FORCE and THE EDGE.

And Chavez won't let her go back on the job without a partner. Michael conceptualized Matt -- after I mandated the creation of Elisa's partner. Cops have partners. It is one of the defining things about cops. When cop-shows show cops working solo, it always bugs me. I felt we got away with it for a bit. But it was time to make Elisa a more real cop. And that meant a partner. Not a bad guy. But someone who could potentially cause her trouble. And yet still really be her partner.

Broadway is still very solicitous toward Elisa. Taking the tv from her. It's sweet.

Random stuff:

The show is gorgeous to look at. (Thanks Roy, et al.)

I love Lexington's line when he regains consciousness: "We're still alive. How come?"

Watching the show this time, my daughter was very nervous that the Statue of Liberty would be damaged in the battle between our gargs and the Steel Clan. But when Broadway nailed one robot by impaling him with a metal claw from the other robot, Erin said, "Nice one."

Goliath is reading Dostoevsky. Are you?


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Blaise writes...

Hey Greg! Just read your ramble about taking risks on the show. I have to tell you, I liked that.
Actually the first thing that got my attention was in the first five episodes when a) the majority of the clan was massacred, b) there were actual children (eggs) that vanished, and c) a character who was introduced as a "good guy" and the hero's love to boot ended up a dangerous villainess. I liked that. I wasn't initially as surprised at the gargoyles moving to the clock tower--I guess I kind of expected them to leave the castle sometime (because of Xanatos and all).
During the second season, however, the permanent changes really started hitting me. Elisa's brother and three other humans are turned into Mutates and NOT CHANGED BACK at the end of the episode. Hell, the ep ends with Xanatos pretty much triumphant, Brooklyn depressed, Elisa crying and the other gargoyles troubled (at least, that's how I interpreted it). And of course, Demona gaining the ability to turn human during the day! The Pack's permanent body upgrades (and Dingo's eventual reformation). Owen's stone hand--quite an ending that. And of course the addition of Angela to the cast. I always find it interesting when a new character is added to the show as a REGULAR.
Then there's the Avalon World tour. I got to admit, that's gutsy. Yeah, I got annoyed sometimes--4th or 5th ep I started wondering "when are they going to get home?"--but then I realized I just had to sit back and enjoy the ride. And I did.
The Xanatos family--I didn't really see that coming (how many other characters in animated afternoon shows get married and have kids like this?). The Clocktower's destruction--I could have killed you guys for that cliff-hanger. ;-) I did not expect that, but after it happened, I figured Xanatos would help them and they'd live in the Castle again. But that was only AFTER you destroyed the place they lived in for the majority of the show.
This is a book now, so I'll just finish by saying this: You guys did a bang-up job!

Greg responds...

Wow. Thanks. I was particularly proud of the Fox/David marriage and child thing. I mean, he's the bad guy after all, and she ain't much better. And yet...

Hey, you know it actually is working. I feel like we've got a substantial back/forth dialogue going over the last few posts.

Response recorded on March 17, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

You asked in a recent rambling about our responses to a number of the "permanent changes" in the course of the series. In the case of the ones that you cited, I can't really recall now how I responded to them at the time (for example, in the case of "Enter Macbeth", my attention was more grabbed by Macbeth's entrance into the series - particularly on account of his name, since that's always been one of my favorite Shakespeare plays - than by the gargoyles' forced relocation - and I was even more delighted in later episodes when we found out more about him and that he was *the* Macbeth).

However, I do recall two "changes" (if relatively small ones) that did startle me. The first was Owen's hand getting turned permanently to stone at the end of "The Price". The second was the destruction of the Grimorum Arcanorum in "Avalon", which particularly raised my eyebrows since that book had been around since the beginning of the series, so that I was astonished to see it go. (I might add that, from my subjective view-point, the end of the Grimorum came, in a sense, not so much when it self-destructed in "Avalon Part Three" as when the Archmage devoured it in "Avalon Part Two").

But when I did look back on them in retrospect, I found that I very much appreciated the changes. It was one of those things that gave "Gargoyles" a special feeling about it that I've so rarely seen in television animation. More like a televised novel, almost.

Greg responds...

Thanks. That was the goal. I figure, hey, S**T HAPPENS. And some things you can't take back. Yeah, sure, I wasn't gonna leave all the gargoyles as humans for all the eps after "The Mirror"; after all, the show wasn't called "HUMANS". And of course, even the loss of the castle wasn't permanent, as Goliath predicted.

But some things can't be changed. Demona can't take back the massacre. History is immutable. And the Magus... well, he's gone. That's life. And death. And everything in between.

As for the two specifics you mentioned...

I wanted to get a rise out of all of you with Owen's hand. It was designed to shock. It was also a bit of a clue. And it flat-out amused the hell outta me.

As for the Grimorum, it honestly felt played out to me. (How many stolen spells could we pull out of our collective hat?) But I wanted to give it a memorable exit. I thought having it swallowed whole by the Archmage was pretty cool.

Hmmm, "HUMANS"... Maybe there's a spin-off idea there...

Response recorded on March 17, 2000

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Jessica Brimer (shadowrider@blomand.net) writes...

Hi, this is the first time I've asked a question, so ignore me if I seem to babble a bit.
I'm a big Puck/Owen fan so my questions have to do with him.

1)Seeing as you really never got the chance to use the Puck/Owen thing much, I was wondering if you would have used this angle more later? (Did that make sense?)

2) In the "The Mirror", Demona mentioned that Puck had served the human (I think that was it), now he would serve her. Is this maybe a reference to Puck serving Shakespear?
(I only say Shakespear because thatr's the work he first appeared in right?)

3) I've long believed that Puck and Owen are one in the same. Owen being the tricksters more serious side. However I have also talked to people who thought Puck was a seperate personality from Owen's own and vice versa. Which is true?

4) In "The Gathering" Oberon didn't seem to know Puck was Owen. Is that an indication that Puck had made his "mask" so well even Oberon himself couldn't see through it?

All for now and it's been nice ummm...typing to you?

Greg responds...

1. Yes and yes.

2. No. Xanatos.

3. Both.

4. I suppose. But Oberon wasn't focusing either.

Nice typing back...

Response recorded on March 11, 2000

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Heather N. Allen writes...

Okay, these questions sorta ended up essay form. I hope I didn't make things TOO complicated. (But they're all on one topic: 'The Gathering' episodes.)

*1* In The Gathering, Puck mentions he noticed Titania in human form and thought it looked like fun. Therefore, he created Owen. Obviously he knew about her, but did she know about him? I mean, he didn't reveal himself to anyone but Xanatos. And after being brought to see grandbaby Alex by Owen himself, when Puck is noticeably missing from Avalon, wouldn't she have known right where to look for him if she knew his human guise?

If she DIDN'T know, like didn't sense or anything (the way Oberon senses her once in the Eyrie Building) then that means she didn't reveal herself to Puck. Then how'd HE know ANASTASIA was TITANIA in the first place, if he couldn't sense it?

Did that come anywhere near making sense?

I'm adding this on as an afterthought sparked by Robby in the CR--perhaps it helps out the confusing mess I posted above:

*2* a) What if Titania DID know Puck was Owen, and kept it to herself (seeing that she'd had in mind it was likely the Xanatos family would get to keep Alex anyway). Was this what was mentioned in the infamous 'thing whispered into Fox's ear that made her smile'?

*2* b) If not, what WAS whispered by Titania into Fox's ear that made her smile? {Are you tired of this one yet? Hopefully not as much as the 'Which Weird Sister is which' questions ^_^}

~H\A~

Greg responds...

All right for starters, the GATHERING info Puck gives assumes that he was watching Titania. Followed her at some point and saw her transformation to Anastasia. Then secretly observed Anastasia to find out what the fascination was.

Theoretically, Titania did NOT know. Owen certainly doesn't think she knows. So the question really is, do you believe Titania's implied statement that everything in GATHERING PART TWO went as she planned. That's hardly possible if she didn't know that Puck was available to act as a tutor that Fox and David would implicitly trust. So the question is, who do you believe?

As to the whisper... Well, I won't say what she said, but certainly it was nothing as Prosaic as "Listen, Janine, this all worked because I already knew that Puck was Owen."

Response recorded on March 11, 2000

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Kar -kwannon@yahoo.com writes...

When Xanatos loses his "guinea pig" aka Hudson in "The Price" why would he allow Owen to test the Cauldron of life for him? Since Owen is Puck, and Puck being a Fey is naturally immortal what does this accomplish? If it worked Owen would be no different or did Owen set out to prove that it did NOT work?

Greg responds...

Owen is human. He can turn back into Puck. But that's his only magical ability. It was a legitimate test. Besides, what did X have to lose?

Response recorded on March 11, 2000

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Aris Katsaris writes...

This is a rather confusing question - even I am not certain I completely understand it... It has to do a bit with characterisation as it applies to the Puck/Owen situation. Obviously Owen is the most serious of the two (understatement of the year :-) But usually when people talk about what another is and feels like, they don't mean only what he *acts* like. So is Owen *really* any different personality-wise to Puck, does Puck's (or any fay's) disguise really influence something more fundamental than their form, influence their thought-processes? Or is Owen's personality nothing more than a role to Puck, (like that of an actor) even if an important one?

In a nutshell, can the Children of Oberon pretty much change their *personalities* as well to some extent when they take different forms, especially as important alter egos as those of Anastasia and Owen?

Greg responds...

FORM is a HUGE influence, I believe. So yes, Puck and Owen are very different. Underneath it all, sure they're the same lovable rogue, don't you agree? But there are fundamental differences. Or else the Puck is a poor showman. When Puck takes on a roll, he lives it. And Owen is his best roll yet.

Now, having said that, generalizing what the Puck can do to the rest of the Children is not wise.

Anastasia had a major influence on Titania, but I think they are more alike than not. Much more alike than Puck and the Owen.

Response recorded on March 09, 2000

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Bud-Clare writes...

You once mentioned that Fox "has half-siblings foster-siblings and step-siblings on her mother's side." Her half- and step-siblings are easy enough, but who are her foster-siblings?

Greg responds...

Well, there's always that Indian Boy from Midsummers for starters.

Gotta be a lot of what we used to call "Changelings" that Titania's taken in over the years.

Response recorded on March 09, 2000

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Chapter IX: "Enter Macbeth"

Another episode by episode ramble. Feedback encouraged.

So here's where all that great continuity got us in major trouble.

The episodes were all designed to play in a certain order. But I didn't tell my bosses that in advance. I know it sounds sneaky, but it wasn't really. We wrote the darn things and sent them off in order. It never occured to me they wouldn't be able to come back and air in order. I mean, how could a newer episode get the jump on an older one? How could an older episode not be ready before a newer one? Then the footage came back on "Enter Macbeth".

This was the first episode not animated in Japan. And immediately we knew we were in trouble. I'm not talking about the version you all have seen. The one that aired. I'm talking about stuff you never saw. Much of the original footage we got was unusable. This wasn't about just calling retakes. This wasn't about us bitching how "Thrill" wasn't as well animated as "Awakening". This was a major disaster. So my bosses said: "Air the next one." And I responded, "We can't."

And not just because they were all designed to air in order. It was a horrible coincidence, but this episode, this episode that was unairable, was a tentpole. Yeah, if Thrill or Temptation had been reordered it would have been sad. Same with "The Edge" and "Long Way To Morning". But big deal, right? Better to get a new episode out and not make the audience deal with repeats this early in the season. (Remember, we had aired our first five episodes in one week. This was only week five. In those days, week five was considered way too early in the year for reruns.)

But this was the follow-up to Elisa's injury. It was important to us that we continue our policy of "repercussions". We put her on crutches to show that a gunshot wasn't something that was solved in twenty-two minutes. This was an ongoing recovery. If you pulled the crutches out by airing Edge next, you blew out the sense of repercussions.

But that wasn't the clincher. Of course, the clincher was the Clock Tower. This was the episode where the Gargs were "banished" from the castle and moved to the Clock Tower. That was a major shift. If we cut straight to Edge, the audience would be lost. Fortunately, Gary was convinced. In a way, I was lucky that our first crisis of order came on such a pivotal "tentpole" episode. We couldn't reorder these. So we went with reruns. But it was a lesson learned. And it would effect the way we approached the second season.

But meanwhile, we had the problem at hand. We couldn't reanimate the entire show. So we picked shots to redo judiciously. There are still some awful looking scenes. When Goliath says, "How Dare You?!" to Elisa, he looks like an Animaniacs parody of Goliath. And that sarcophogus/iron maiden thing that Goliath follows Macbeth through looks like a prop out of CHIP N DALE'S RESCUE RANGERS. (Another perfectly good series, but with a slightly different art style, if you know what I mean.) Or how about the GIANT remote that Macbeth pulls from his duster in order to summon his ship? "Enter Macbeth" is still, as aired, the worst looking episode of the first season. And that really killed Frank and I, because we both really loved this story. We were sure that the bad animation would kill any interest in Macbeth. The fact that generally, the character did catch hold of fandom's collective imagination is a true testament to the work of Steve Perry, Michael Reaves, John Rhys-Davies and Jamie Thomason. And, oh, yes... William Shakespeare.

The weak picture forced us to use a lot of little tricks to get a final cut. One thing we did, which I regret, is reuse dialogue. Elisa says "You aren't safe here" like three times. And it isn't three different takes. It's just the exact same take reprinted and reused. Lex & Brooklyn also reuse lines to get Bronx to find Goliath. That sort of thing drives me nuts.

There is one really nice moment in the animation. When Macbeth chooses his sword off the wall, the reflection effect is quite sweet. And I also like the down shot of Bronx running right down the middle of Broadway (the street not the gargoyle). I also love how Goliath makes no attempt to hide. That really spoke to the Gargoyles attitude about living among humans. They wouldn't hold press conferences, but they would not cower.

Anyway, we ran reruns. Awakenings. And obviously all five episodes on five consecutive weeks. That might have been a good thing for people who had heard about the show by word of mouth in week two or later and needed to catch up. But for anyone who had been following the show from its premiere, it was a long time to wait for new episodes. By the time we came back, so much time had passed since "Deadly Force" that we felt the need to put a "Previously on Gargoyles" at the head of the episode. Another trick I cribbed from HILL STREET BLUES. Cartoons rarely did that sort of thing. Sure multi-parters had to. But single episodes... For some reason, it made me feel very grown up. (Which only proves how immature I really am.) The "Previously" also allowed us to cut 30 more seconds of bad looking footage out of the episode. That little bonus was something I'd remember for season two as well.

HOME

As we pushed guns in the previous episode, this one is laced with the imagery and language of home. What is it? What makes it? What price is one willing to pay to keep or secure it? There are four homes depicted. Well, really five. The Gargoyles' castle. Xanatos' prison. Macbeth's mansion. The Clock Tower. And the Castle again, once it is reclaimed by Xanatos and thus becomes a very, very different place.

I tried to make sure, as much as possible, that every episode had that kind of underlying theme. (I recently tried with very limited success to do the same thing in MAX STEEL. Someone asked me once, why the one-word S-Titles for all the Max Steel episodes. They were my attempt to make me and the writers focus on the theme of each story.)

And how do all these homes turn out? Macbeth is so obsessed that he loses his home to a fire. Xanatos finally gets out of prison. (Not on Halloween by the way, or that would make the dates depicted in Double Jeopardy innacurate. Obviously, Halloween was circled on his calendar because the guy just loves Halloween. And after all, Owen specifically says in a LATER scene that Xanatos has one week left before he gets out. The wall calendar had shown only a few days.) The Gargoyles lose the castle, gain the clock tower, but realize that home is literally where the heart is. And Xanatos... well all other concerns of Grimorum and gargoyle of destruction and competition pale next to the simple pleasure of being back home.

And how many of you were suprised that the Gargoyles lost the castle? That was supposed to be another pretty shocking development. I mean, sure, Batman might lose the Batcave for an episode, but for 56 episodes? When Goliath said "We'll be back to claim that which is ours" at the end, did most of you think he'd be back next week? Next month? By the time, the gang finally did return in chapter 65, did anyone still remember Goliath's vow?

MACBETH

I've discussed this before, but Macbeth's origins (at least in terms of our series) were (ironically) an early attempt to play the notion of THE HUNTER. I was looking for someone human who could physically take on the Gargoyles as prey. Someone smart, with an agenda. We actually started with the notion of trying to create our own KRAVEN THE HUNTER type character. But it quickly moved in its own direction. Frankly, away from Kraven and more toward BATMAN. In those days, we were constantly being told that we would be accused of ripping off Batman. So Frank, Michael and I decided to create a villain who, at least in M.O. would be our Batman.

I had a semi-separate idea to add a human to the cast who was from Goliath's time. Thus creating a good thematic nemesis or opposite for him. (The key to creating a good villain, in my opinion.) But this villain would have lived through the centuries. So that he was familiar with the very latest in technology. This dove-tailed with our anti-Batman, and was also exactly how we viewed Demona. So it soon became clear to Michael and I that the two characters must be connected in some way. That suggested that he shouldn't merely be 1000 years old. He should be Scottish as well. All that was left was a name. And given my love of Shakespeare, I'm surprised it took me so long to figure it out. Our nemesis was Macbeth himself. An immortal Scottish King. What Scottish King was more immortal than Macbeth? More mortal too for that matter.

This was the beginning of countless Shakespearian references that I would either slide (or force) into the show, or that the writers would stick in knowing I was a sucker for them. And I love the little exchange between Lex & Brooklyn...

[dialogue approximate]
LEX: "Wasn't "Macbeth" the name of that play by that new writer Shakespeare that Goliath was talking about?"

BROOKLYN: "Have you read it?"

LEX: "No. Have you?"

BROOKLYN: "No. But maybe we should."

This was my little way of trying to encourage our viewers to read or at least learn about the play. If they wanted to know who Macbeth was, it wouldn't hurt to go to the primary source.

And at the time, Shakespeare was my primary source for Macbeth. This was long before Tuppence Macintyre and Monique Beatty did all their research for me for "City of Stone". Back then, the only Macbeth I knew about was Shakespeare's.

We gave him a sense of honor, but a twisted one. And we gave him a very interesting motivation. I didn't yet know the particulars, but this guy was after Demona in a major way. He had stained glass windows in his home depicting the two of them. He was the man who named her. It was all pretty intriguing stuff to me. I love the exchange between him and Goliath. Goliath is a pawn. Mac wants the queen and believes that endangering Goliath is the surest way to ensnare Demona. And how does Goliath respond? By gum, if he doesn't laugh -- MANIACALLY!! And watch how the tables turn. Macbeth is not infallible and suddenly Goliath has him on the defensive. Goliath even uses a MACE!! Great stuff.

Incidentally, we had in the script described Macbeth as wearing a thin layer of exo-armor. And Goliath was supposed to dig his claws into it. Macbeth would escape by detaching from the armor. Instead, the artists did the bit with the duster coat. But I remembered the claws in armor thing and eventually found a place for it... in HUNTER'S MOON, PART THREE.

Finally, watching the episode tonight, my five year old daughter said she spotted the Mona Lisa on Macbeth's wall. I didn't see it. But I believe her. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the original. Too bad about that fire.



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