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Greg Bishansky writes...
Hi Greg,
This is kind of a ramble/response to "stanley dean cowens" question/comment on how some shows take fan response into consideration when plotting out future stores.
Not knocking anyone, but in my personal experience, when most of the shows, comics that I liked started catering to fans more than telling their stories, it was usually not for the better. Most of the time, the author knows better than the fans when it comes to the theory (I say most, because there are some exceptions to this rule).
So, while some fans may have wished Goliath and Demona to reunite, or Brooklyn and Angela to hook up, I am glad you stuck to your guns and did what was right for the characters.
"Give the audience what they need, not what they want," is a phrase I personally subscribe to.
To be honest, that's why, as much as I like and admire Joss Whedon, I always felt that until he got a soul, the Spike/Buffy relationship seemed very forced. Even having Spike interact with the Scooby gang from season four on seemed forced... I love the Spike character, but a lot of what happened with him seemed to fly in the face of what had been established with the mythology up until that point. But, Spike being a very popular character, both with the fans and the writers, was put into a position he didn't really belong in, to his detriment, I thought. Of course, I was eventually vindicated in that, sadly, brutal scene near the end of season six in her bathroom.
I know that's an unpopular opinion, but it just never clicked with me until Spike was re-ensouled.
So, in that sense, I thank you for continuing to stick to your guns. Even in the "Gargoyles" comics, well... we all wanted more Demona, I know I certainly did. But you didn't force her in early to provide fan service. You serviced the story instead.
Thank you for that.
Greg responds...
I liked the chipped-Spike.
DNL writes...
Hi Greg,
If I may, I'd like to ask what your take is on the movie reboot of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, notably on the fact that Joss Whedon is not to take a part in it. Do you think it could work? Does the Buffy timeline even need a reboot this soon after the series ended?
And since I'm here, what did you think of Whedon's Dr. Horrible series?
I ask because you've said many times in the past that you're a fan of Whedon's work, and I thought it would be a nice change from everyone else asking you about SSM season 3.
Greg responds...
I haven't heard ANYTHING about this. Buffy without Joss seems unwise, but I'm not going to credit what amounts to a rumor.
I thought Dr. Horrible was great.
Spen writes...
I have a silly little question. In your "Buffyverse geek-out" exactly how did your scoring system work?
Greg responds...
It was a point system. A strange combination of the objective and subjective. There were points for being a regular. Points for being a lead. Points for recurring. Points for importance in a given episode. Etc.
It was a flawed system -- and I came up with a better one too late to implement it. But the results were still interesting - to me, at least.
gdw
Matthew writes...
I know you read the Buffy season 8 comics. Are you following any other series?
Greg responds...
At the moment, I'm following Buffy, Justice League of America and Aquaman (or whatever it's called), but mostly I'm reading the Marvel Essentials -- when I have the time.
KingCobra_582 writes...
What a time for comic books. Especially when they're adaptations of unaired seasons. In this case, Buffy Season 8 (picked up Buffy #3 and Gargs #4 today) and (the real) Gargoyles Season 3. But since this is a Gargoyles site and not a Buffy one, I'll leave a review on Gargs #4, and maybe I'll discuss Buffy later. Maybe at the con or something.
Anyway.
**WARNING. SPOILERS.**
It was a fun issue. The artwork seemed (to me, anyway) to be a little more cartoon-ish. It was a little hard for me to tell just what was going on in some panels. At least, not right away. Though on the other hand, it was a different kind of artwork, and who doesn't appreciate variety? So the art did not bother me. In fact, I somewhat enjoyed it.
And nice props on 'Cyborg Lex' too. Made me flash back to Future Tense, which is/was one of my favorite episodes. I wonder if it creeped Goliath out any? Though I have to admit I (at first glance) thought Lex WAS going as the Tin Man, to collaborate with Broadway and Angela's Wizard Of Oz costumes. But now that I think about it, Lex conveinently (albeit unknowingly) dressing up as the Evil Lex of Goliath's worst nightmare made more sense. You obviously did that to mess with the fans, Greg, and I applaud you for it. Bravo for the WTF moment you drew out of me. :D
And of course we can't leave Margot Yale. Berating poor Brendan. Plus, I guess that, despite all their encounters in the past, she can't even recognize a Gargoyle in costume, going so far as to praise Lex for it. It's either short-term memory issues or her inability to believe that the 'monsters' are anything but or both.
Thailog in the Labyrinth was a treat. Just as bad-assed as ever. That's what makes him one of my favorite characters. He's Goliath's evil side. I guess he never changes and never will. Shooting at Maggie and being able to manipulate his 'property' into helping him attack Goliath at the end. Claw, another of my beloved characters, came into play a bit here as well. I dunno what I expected to happen next after #3's climax, but it definitely wasn't that. Claw is so cool. Too bad he can't overpower Thailog.
And when Thailog STABS Goliath at the end! Holy. Crap...!
More Elisa and Goliath angst, too. Ho hum.
More Illuminati greeting too. Now if only I knew what the numbers represented. I'm guessing rank, but you're the only one who really knows. And knowing you, you're not saying.
What's Xanatos' mission at the White House anyway?
Oh, and it took me a little bit to remember who Judge Roebling was. Is he going to slowly and over time develop more?
Nice little Brooklyn/Angela moment too. Even if she's mated and she only wants to see his costume, it's nice that Brooklyn finally gets SOME kind of positive time with a female. It's not the romantic kind that he wants, but it's better then him being used, rejected, or attacked.
Hopefully the events of Timedancer will come soon, but that's my own personal anticipation, and there's no rush.
**END SPOILERS**
Another great issue, Greg. Cool story, decent animation, Thailog at his best, and some great moments of irony ('Future Tense' Lex) all chalk up to another great installment. I'm definitely psyched for #5.
Oh, and I'm definitely bringing all my comics (Buffy in the chance you might want to read it, and Gargoyles for autographing.) to the con next month.
See you then.
Cobra out.
Greg responds...
I've been collecting the new Buffy too.
Charisma82 writes...
Hey! I'm taking a break from Gargoyles and going into Buffyverse…
I just finished reading your Buffyverse top 40 for Angel's last season and it got my mind thinking back on the show. I was wondering which show you preferred more, Buffy or Angel? Me, myself, and I loved Angel. When I was younger, I watched about 1 or 2 seasons of Buffy on reruns. I stopped watching it and never really went back to it. I remember liking the first season I watched (which was when Buffy was in her last year of High School), but was a bit more disappointed in the season that came on after that. I happened to be talking to a friend about the show later on and she told me that if I liked the character Angel (which was one of my favorite characters in Buffy), I'd like his spin off show. Spin off show? I'd never heard of it. When I found out, Angel was in its 4th season, and I didn't really think of watching it, until… I found the reruns! I've seen all of the Angel episodes and I think that they are WAY better than the Buffy shows I remember. What I liked the most is how the characters totally changed from when they started the show to when they ended it. Who would've thought Cordelia from Buffy would ever end up the Cordelia at the end of Angel? And the same with Wesley. Then the show added some regulars on. I really liked Doyle and was sad to see him go. I also liked Gun, Fred, and Lorne. It was also interesting when they threw Spike into the mix in the last season. I have to agree with you that Angel's last season was one of great exits. Cordelia's death was terrible for me because I had grown to like her character a lot. I really like how Angel and her part for the last time. I wonder to myself sometimes that if Angel had to pick between Cordi and Buffy, who would he would choose. He never got into a real boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with Cordi like he did with Buffy (which is probably for the best). I myself have always hoped he would pick Cordi since the two of them had grown closer to each other as great friends and then to something a bit more. I know that Buffy will always be one of his loves, but hey, you can't blame me for wanting to see him with Cordi. Anyways, back to the deaths. I was sad when Fred died and there was no way to bring her back. I was crushed when Wesley died and it made it even sadder when Illyria pretended to be Fred for him. I would have really liked to know what happened to the rest of the gang (though it is pretty obvious). I kind of hope at least a few of them made it through the final fight in some way. That's hoping for ya. I'll never forget one of Angel's last lines though. "Personally, I'd like to take the dragon." HA! Out of all the sad moments in that episode, that got a good laugh out of me. Well, I know I've rambled on long enough. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in about Angel. Hope it didn't bore you too much.
Thank you for your time and patience.
-Charisma82
Greg responds...
Episode by episode, there were some shows I liked more than others, but I basically LOVED both Buffy and Angel. No preference, per se though between the series.
Gerin writes...
Hey Greg,
thank you very much for communicating with fans for all these years. Really cool!
Was so glad to read you liked "Firefly" and "Serenity". So, my questions:
1) Did you ever meet Joss Whedon? If yes, do you know if saw "Gargoyles"? Did he like it? I'd ask him myself, but there is no "Ask Joss", and it would be interesting to know if you two ever talked about your shows.
2) I realize "Gargoyles" and "Firefly" differ in almost every regard, but I'm still aching to understand why my favourite shows always get axed prematurely. So, do you see any similarities between the two shows? Any common ground regarding their discontinuation other than their ratings not living up to expectations? Why is it that these shows did not catch on more? Is there something you and Joss maybe learned from it?
3) How would you explain that "Firefly" got a movie, whereas the "Gargoyles"-movie hasn't been made (yet)? Was it luck, was it that Disney would never let go of a property the way Fox has for "Serenity"?
Thanks for your time, all the best, can't wait for the comics to appear in Europe.
Greg responds...
1. I've never met Joss Whedon. But I'm a huge fan of his. I doubt I'm on his radar though. Though it's nice to IMAGINE he's a fan.
2. Um, Gargoyles did NOT get axed prematurely. Elsewhere on this site, probably in the FAQ, you can read about all the reasons why the series was not renewed for a fourth season (or rather a second season of Goliath Chronicles). But we did 65 episodes of Gargoyles (not counting TGC). That's a FULL order.
3. DVD sales mostly. Joss Whedon being Joss Whedon too. But mostly they had stellar DVD sales, we did not.
BUFFYVERSE - The final Top 40
BUFFYVERSE STATS
TOP 40 CHARACTER LIST:
Once AGAIN, I'm wasting my semi-valuable time (and hopefully yours) to bring you the FINAL update in my attempt to catalogue the most significant characters in the BUFFYVERSE. Previous CUMULATIVE updates covered the first, second and third years of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. After that, the task became more complicated as Buffy's fourth season aired simultaneously (day and date, literally) with the first season of Angel. So the Year Four update included Buffy S4 & Angel S1. Year Five added in Buffy S5 & Angel S2. Year Six, Buffy S6 & Angel S3. Year Seven brought in Buffy's final season S7 & Angel S4. And now, at last, the final season of Angel, S5, which is also (unfortunately) the final season of the televised Buffyverse.
As you may recall, I've tried to inform this subjective task with an objective formula. Still, I won't deny that subjectives have played a role. It's hard not to take extra notice of a character, whom you know is going to be important later. And numerical ties were broken based entirely on subjective criteria.
The idea behind a cumulative tally is to mimic the original experience of following the Buffyverse. It's a horse race. Some of the winners and losers are decidedly predictable. Others are a bit surprising - surprising enough that it's become absolutely clear that my system is flawed. I've since dreamed up a new system, but it's too late to implement it. Someday, LONG after I've finished this first survey (but ONLY if I prove truly insane), I might just start over and see what the results are with OBJECTIVE SYSTEM 2.0. But for now - assuming you haven't nodded off - you're stuck with System One.
I have a list of ALL the characters that have appeared in both series up to this point. It's so long (including everything from leads to ridiculously minor characters) that I haven't even bothered to count how many there are. But my list of MOST significant tops out at 273 characters.
But I think listing the top 40 is both pleasantly traditional… and plenty. Or largely. I just want to note a few characters introduced (or revisited) in this set of episodes, who will never make the top 40, but whom I believe are memorable enough to merit honorable mention.
Starting with…
[SPOILERS]
#272, 273 - Zach & Trish. The wife and son that Lindsey (and later Gunn) lived with while under a spell in a Wolfram & Hart prison Hell Dimension.
#261 - Blue Fairy. She only appeared in Angel's hallucination, but, hey, Blue Fairy makes Spike a real boy. Gotta love it.
#258 - The Immortal. Buffy's new (never truly seen) boyfriend in Rome. Gotta say, I HATE THE GUY easily as much as Angel and Spike do. That's impressive for a guy I never met.
#222 - Initiative Founder - In the WWII episode, the Initiative is ret-conned in… nicely.
#221 - Hamburger Loa. The fast food mascot CGI statue that Wesley consulted in a previous season that totally steered him the wrong way about Angel and the baby Connor makes a last flashback appearance here, which raises his significance enough to make the list. BUT… he represents a flaw, I think. The Loa seems to have lied to Wes in hindsight. WHY? Was he working for Jasmine?
#220 - Ilona Costa-Bianchi. Head of the Roman branch of W&H.
#214 - Matthias Bavane, the Reaper. The ghost haunting W&H, keeping it evil.
#210 - Rutherford Sirk. Wesley's last season introductory guide to W&H. This year he took Wesley's place for an episode (while Wesley was recovering from NOT killing his father) - but Sirk was secretly working for Lindsey.
#207 - Lawson - The only vampire that Angel ever sired AFTER he got his soul back. The guy had a bit of soul, and it tormented him. A neat idea.
#188 - Lawyer #1. Recurring comic relief Wolfram&Hart lawyer.
#178 - Leader of the Fell Brethren. Funny, evil demon cult leader and member of the Circle of the Black Thorn (was that the name?), who really was gaga over this baby he had purchased.
#173 - The Wrath. The demon/executioner that ripped Lindsey and later Gunn's heart out daily.
#161 - Numero Cinco. Retired luchador, bitter ex-hero and mailboy.
#160 - The Roger Wyndom-Price Robot. Wesley's dad, only not. Not sure why they didn't just make it Wes' dad.
#159 - Izzirial, or Izzy for short. Clichéd looking devil and member of the Circle. Also played racket ball with Angel.
#154 - Peepee Demon. Demon servant that Angel poisoned to kill Archduke Sebasis (because Sebasis fed off the servant's blood).
#138 - Senator Helen Brucker. Demon posing as a Senator with Vampire campaign workers. Member of the Circle. Just wish it had been someone (ANYONE) we had met before on Buffy or Angel.
#130 - Drogen the Keeper. The Batttlebrand. Angel's mystically honest buddy and sacrifical lamb. The friend he kills to get into the Circle.
#97 - Archduke Sebasis. Another nasty member of the Circle. The shame of Angel's ending with little warning for the creative staff - and the only real disappointment for me (beyond the fact that I'd be Whedon TV free without the series) - was that the Circle was made up of villains who were either largely unestablished or shoe-horned in at the last minute. Sebasis at least spanned the season, but I do wish they had culled the eleven (combined) years of Buffy and Angel to find more significant and memorable baddies to be part of the Circle. Of course, all the BIG BADS were dead, and most of the little bads too. But what about, say, D'Hoffryn? Hell, I'd have settled for Dracula even.
#95 - Nina Ashe. Angel's werewolf girlfriend. I liked her. I liked the idea that Angel could love someone without being in love. Take comfort. Sex without that perfect happy Angelus-inducing perfect moment.
#94 - Dr. Sparrow. The guy who made Gunn a lawyer… and kept him a lawyer (and Gilbert & Sullivan expert) at the expense of Fred's life.
#89- Cyvus Vale. Played by the always amazing Dennis Christopher, he was a wizard, who gave Connor his rebooted new life. Also a member of the Circle, who kills Wes before being killed by Illyria.
#57- Marcus Hamilton. After Eve betrays everyone (including W&H) to help Lindsey, Hamilton takes over as the new liason to the Senior Partners. Get's busted by Angel in the end.
#45- Eve. I was almost rooting for Eve to make the Top 40. She was a really fun character. The liason to the Senior Partners for Angel. Lindsey's main squeeze. She even slept with Angel and shrugged it off.
And before we start, a fond Top 40 farewell to Graham Miller (now at 42). Well, not really. I'm glad he fell out of the 40. It's shocking to me he lasted as long as he did.
AND NOW THE TOP 40
Abbreviations for previous rankings…
Y1 - Buffy Season 1.
Y2 - Buffy Season 2.
Y3 - Buffy Season 3.
Y4 - Buffy Season 4/Angel Season 1.
Y5 - Buffy Season 5/Angel Season 2.
Y6 - Buffy Season 6/Angel Season 3.
Y7 - Buffy Season 7/Angel Season 4
NR - Not Ranked that year.
#40 - Glory. Y7: 39. Y6: 34. Y5: 30. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Year Five's big bad drops one more ranking but holds on to the Top 40, something that neither Adam nor the Master managed. (And Jasmine never cracked the Top 40.) It feels like Big Bads deserve to be here. But again, a system skewed toward screen time is gonna favor supporting characters over villains. But I'm still glad Glory hangs on.
#39 - Kennedy. Y7: 38. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Kennedy, potential Slayer, eventual Co-Slayer and Willow's new main squeeze - or I should say squeezer - only drops one ranking. Of course, Kennedy is no Tara, but I think that was the point.
#38 - Maggie Walsh. Y7: 37. Y6: 31. Y5: 27. Y4: 18. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Maggie Walsh? Adam doesn't make it, but his creator Maggie hangs on, though she's dropped 1 last slot.
#37 - Illyria. Y7: NR. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Illyria (named after a PLACE in TWELFTH NIGHT) enters the countdown at #37 with a bullet in less than half a season. Fred's transformation into what I thought for a second was going to be yet another Big Bad created from the Regular Cast, wound up being one of the most brilliant and affecting moment in eight years of watching the Buffyverse. WOW!!
#36 - Mayor Richard Wilkins III. Y7: 36. Y6: 33. Y5: 29. Y4: 19. Y3: 14. Y2: 40. Y1: NR. The Mayor maintains at 36. Gotta love the Mayor.
#35 - Ben. Y7: 35. Y6: 30. Y5: 26. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Glory's alter ego holds his position. Again, like Maggie being ahead of Adam, there's really something wrong with Ben being ahead of Glory. My system was too much about screen time, not actual character significance or OOMPH.
#34 - Jenny Calendar. Y7: 34. Y6: 29. Y5: 25. Y4: 17. Y3: 13. Y2: 11. Y1: 15. Jenny also holds position. (Not a lot of movement possible in the Top 40 in a final season. Not enough episodes for a new character to pass some of the old faithful.) Says something about Jenny's original significance that a non-regular like her is holding on for so long. And of course she was pretty much the first character we ever saw as the First, way back in Y3.
#33 - The First. Y7: 32. Y6: 143. Y5: 120. Y4: 85. Y3: 52. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. The original evil drops one ranking. I was never satisfied with the First, especially in the Season Finale, but I can't deny that he/she/it belongs in the Top 40.
#32 - Warren Meers. Y7: 31. Y6: 36. Y5: 82. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Warren, the most evil of the nerves, also falls one ranking.
#31 - Kate Lockley. Y7: 30. Y6: 27. Y5: 22. Y4: 23. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Angel's cop friend is gone and largely forgotten now… She falls one more ranking.
#30 - Daniel Holtz. Y7: 28. Y6: 25. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Captain Holtz, Angel's Century spanning arch-nemesis falls 2 rankings. His influence still very much felt.
#29 - Francis Doyle. Y7: 27. Y6: 23. Y5: 20. Y4: 15. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Doyle falls two ranks. He has an important video-taped cameo in Cordelia's final episode. Something pulled right from Season One. It was lovely.
#28 - Principal Robin Wood. Y7: 26. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Robin Wood, son of Slayer and Spike-victim, Nikki Wood, falls two rankings. This is a character that I would have LOVED to have seen a spin-off built around. D.B. Woodside is great; Wood has no super-powers, just training. And I would like to know who Robin's dad was and what happened to him. And the fact that a Slayer could survive long enough to have a kid… Loved this idea.
#27 - Lindsey McDonald. Y7: 29. Y6: 26. Y5: 21. Y4: 29. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lindsey makes an impressive comeback, jumping up two rankings. (Never completely understood why he STILL hates Angel so much.) Has a non-good death, which was very cool.
#26 - Jonathan Levinson. Y7: 25. Y6: 24. Y5: 33. Y4: 24. Y3: 17. Y2: 19. Y1: NR. Jonathan, another dead geek - but a beloved one - drops one ranking.
#25 - Principal Snyder. Y7: 23. Y6: 21. Y5: 18. Y4: 12. Y3: 9. Y2: 10. Y1: 12. Snyder falls two more rank, but holds on. Clichés, even fun ones, rule.
#24 - Andrew Wells. Y7: 24. Y6: 37. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Andrew, back with a couple of memorable Scooby Gang-Representing appearances, holds on to the #24 slot.
#23 - Darla. Y7: 21. Y6: 18. Y5: 19. Y4: 28. Y3: 23. Y2: 23. Y1: 11. Darla loses two rankings w/only a brief flashback appearance in this season. Love Darla.
#22 - Drusilla. Y7: 22. Y6: 19. Y5: 16. Y4: 16. Y3: 11. Y2: 8. Dru has a couple nice flashbacks and once again leapfrogs over Darla simply by maintaining her #22 ranking,.
#21 - Lilah Morgan. Y7: 20. Y6: 22. Y5: 31. Y4: 31. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Geez, you're dead for a year, and you drop out of the Top 20. Lilah falls one position.
#20 - Harmony Kendall. Y7: 33. Y6: 28. Y5: 23. Y4: 25. Y3: 20. Y2: 26. Y1: 18. Harmony, who becomes a regular (finally) halfway through the season, jumps up ELEVEN ranks to crack the Top 20 for the first time since Season Three of Buffy. Always nice to see a character who stayed in the hunt for ALL eight years of the Buffyverse.
#19 - Faith. Y7: 19. Y6: 20. Y5: 17. Y4: 13. Y3: 10. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Faith maintains her position.
#18 - Connor. Y7: 18. Y6: 41. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. So does Connor, who is SO much more fun to hang with this season in two great appearances.
#17 - Riley Finn. Y7: 17. Y6: 15. Y5: 12. Y4: 11. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Riley maintains.
#16 - Tara Maclay. Y7: 16. Y6: 13. Y5: 15. Y4: 20. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Tara maintains.
#15 - Joyce Summers. Y7: 14. Y6: 14. Y5: 11. Y4: 9. Y3: 8. Y2: 7. Y1: 7. Joyce falls one ranking to her lowest slot ever.
#14 - Daniel "Oz" Osbourne. Y7: 13. Y6: 12. Y5: 9. Y4: 7. Y3: 7. Y2: 12. Y1: NR. Oz falls one more ranking to his lowest point yet.
#13 - Lorne. Y7: 15. Y6: 17. Y5: 24. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lorne jumps another couple rankings in a brutal season for his character… probably the guy (next to Fred, who dies and becomes someone else) who goes through the biggest emotional change from the start of the season to the end.
#12 - Winifred "Fred" Burkle. Y7: 12. Y6: 16. Y5: 50. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Fred holds her position, despite dying. In fact, if she hadn't died and ceded most (but not all) of her screen time to Illyria, she might have past Dawn.
#11 - Dawn Summers. Y7: 11. Y6: 11. Y5: 14. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Dawn plateaus at 11. Just had too much padding to fall, despite zero screen time. Again, Fred's death protected her too.
#10 - Anya Kristina Emanuella Jenkins. Y7: 9. Y6: 9. Y5: 10. Y4: 14. Y3: 22. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Anya drops a slot but stays in the Top 10.
#9 - Charles Gunn. Y7: 10. Y6: 10. Y5: 13. Y4: 37. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. A powerful season arc pulls Gunn up a rung to 9, a personal best.
#8 - Wesley Wyndam-Price. Y7: 8. Y6: 8. Y5: 8. Y4: 10. Y3: 15. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Wesley plateaus at #8. I know it must seem like everyone would plateau this high up, and from this point on they are…
#7 - Spike. Y7: 7. Y6: 7. Y5: 7. Y4: 8. Y3: 12. Y2: 9. Y1: NR. Spike doesn't quite have the juice to pass Giles.
#6 - Rupert Giles. Y7: 6. Y6: 5. Y5: 3. Y4: 3. Y3: 2. Y2: 2. Y1: 2. Giles maintains.
#5 - Willow Rosenberg. Y7: 5. Y6: 5. Y5: 6. Y4: 6. Y3: 4. Y2: 4. Y1: 4. Willow holds her Top 5 slot, but finishes behind both Cordelia and Xander, which surprises me. As she was a Big Bad. And as she really should be equal with Xander, it demonstrates another significant flaw in the system. But at least she's in the Top Five.
#4 - Cordelia Chase. Y7: 4. Y6: 4. Y5: 5. Y4: 4. Y3: 5. Y2: 5. Y1: 5. Cordy maintains. She has one of the best exit episodes EVER though. Frankly, Angel's last season is FULL of great exits.
#3 - Xander Harris. Y7: 3. Y6: 2. Y5: 2. Y4: 2. Y3: 3. Y2: 3. Y1: 3. Xander stays in the Top 3, which is right where he started eight years earlier. Making him - with the exception of the two series' leads, the MOST important character in the Buffyverse.
#2 - Angel. Y7: 2. Y6: 3. Y5: 4. Y4: 5. Y3: 6. Y2: 6. Y1: 6. Angel maintains. Buffy just was too far ahead for him to catch up, which is probably how it should be. Still, a fantastic last season for Angel.
#1 - Buffy Anne Summers. Y7: 1. Y6: 1. Y5: 1. Y4: 1. Y3: 1. Y2: 1. Y1: 1. Duh. It ain't called the Buffyverse for nothin'.
Jay writes...
Well, you're not going to be reading this for awhile, so it's kind of pointless, but:
I just wanted to tell you that I'm really enjoying your Buffy character rankings.
I started watching Angel second or third season and had seen a few episodes of Buffy but never got to into it. But now I'm getting the DVDs off of Netflix, so I'm getting of watch them all.
It's nice to read your rankings affter I finish a seson, it's just hard to wait until I finish.
Well, keep it up, thanks.
Greg responds...
I will. One last season left to do.
Luke Perry writes...
what is with people that like Buffy so much? Is the show really that great if you watch it all the way through? Every individual episode that I've seen has been, on its own, just plain terrible. Cheesiness abounds, bad jokes, very poorly coregraphed action sequences with a very unconvincing lead- both in action sequences and regular acting but especially in action sequences, vampires that aren't scary or cool or intimidating or in any way interesting who die in seconds to some waifish looking little high school brat (c'mon guys... Paul "Pee Wee Herman" Reubens in the original more-appropriately-titled-because-it-was-a-comedy movie was more threatening than some of these throw-aways), corny special effects, oh, and John Ritter as an evil robot. What is there to like here, seriously? You're obviously a huge fan, Greg, as your geekily obsessive Buffy character lists prove. Maybe you can shed some light.
To Buffy's credit, I haven't seen any episodes that were as bad as some from The Goliath Chronicles (A Bronx Tale, the one with the cloned clan and little Anton- stupid idea to begin with made worse in the hands of and inept creative team, the EGON PAX!!! episode, et cetera)... and a few of the Buffy episodes I've seen, though not many, have been better than some of the bad episodes of Gargoyles season 2 (most of the later Dracon episodes (Turf, Protection/Jalapena!), anything with Anton Sevarius in it (Monsters, Metamorphosis), and the weaker eps on the world tour (Easter Island, New Olympians, some of the ones already mentioned) If you're still not familiar at all with the Goliath Chronicles as I know you've previously claimed in Ask Greg you out to at least check out A Bronx Tale and the Egon Pax one... I forget what that episode was called... it had the Illuminati in it. They are just really, really, really hilariously bad. Mind-bogglingly bad. Funny, funny stuff... but sad at the same time. If it makes you laugh and cry that's supposed to be a good thing though, right?
Greg responds...
I've said many times that I've seen every Goliath Chronicles episode (with the exception of "The Journey," which I've seen many times) exactly once. Those last twelve didn't make me laugh or cry. Just cringe.
As for the Garg Season Two episodes you don't like... well, we just disagree. They're not all perfect, of course. But I like them all.
But as for Buffy -- Dude, I don't know what to tell you. The series kicks ass. Everything that you criticize, is actually brilliant. The acting, the concept, the themes, the effects (most of them anyway), the vampires (most of them anyway), the fight choreography, etc. ROCKS! Is it all perfect? No, but what is?
Watching all the Buffy and Angel episodes on DVD has been great. The arcs are amazing, generally. And as for individual episodes, it could be argued -- particularly in later seasons -- that they hold up even better in a vaccuum, than they do as part of the arc.
But look, you don't have to agree. I mean, obviously, you don't agree. People have different tastes. But personally, Joss' TV work on Buffy, Angel and Firefly is, I think, some of the best in the business. And I like to think I have fairly high standards.
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