Greg Bishansky writes...

This is more a ramble reply to Alex Garg's post, but I definitely think this is a fascinating subject, and could make a great Ask Greg discussion.

Honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone in the Manhattan Clan cares much about any of the clones. Any of them. What was the first thing said when Thailog appeared to perish and the clones had no where to go? "We can't just bring them back to the Clock Tower can we? I mean, they kind of give me the creeps."

Right there, the Manhattan Clan wanted nothing to do with them. Wanted to pretend they didn't exist. Let Talon take them to live in a sewer. Out of sight, out of mind. Not that the reaction is not understandable, it is. I think we'd all be uncomfortable around clones of ourselves made against our will and knowledge. It's a fundamental violation of our individuality.

Did any of the Manhattan Clan go down to see them between "The Reckoning" and "Invitation Only"? I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes. The one time they do go down, they want something. Goliath is following Elisa's request to attempt to date Delilah. Brooklyn... just wants to make a play for the only available female he's aware of. They were down there both for selfish reasons.

So, yeah, all of their talk about free will probably was less for the clones' sake, and more towards the Manhattan Clan's hatred for Thailog. They hate Thailog, so naturally they don't want the clones to be helping him. At this point, do they have any other reason to care?

Lexington's only real concern when Brentwood chooses Thailog is how it makes him [Lexington] look. Not concern for Brentwood's safety, or eventually having to face him as an enemy. Lex thinks it makes *him* look bad.

I know this is a pretty serious indictment of the Manhattan Clan. I love them, they are heroes, there's a lot to admire in each and every one of them. But, they're not saints. Which is fine, they're more interesting this way... if I wanted a group of pure goodie goods, I'd read a Silver Age Justice League of America comic book.

Alex Garg writes...

This is something that had I wanted to bring up in the Culture/Biology panel at the Gathering, but we ran out of time. Besides, it feels a little better to be able to ask this question now that "Bash" has broad exposure (although it's still new enough to constitute a SPOILER warning).

Gargoyles and Free Will.

A theme of Gargoyles since the introduction of the clones has been just how much control they have over making their own decisions, particularly given that they were programmed to obey Thailog. This comes to a head in "Masque" and "Bash," where the clones are bombarded with the "Free Will" message to the point where they can finally make their choices, but what's most curious to me is the pressure that they receive from the Manhattan Clan.

It doesn't surprise me that Maggie would bring it up in "Masque" - she was born and raised in a democratic society, so the idea that people have free will and the right to self-determination is ingrained in her psyche - but for Goliath and Lexington, and Angela to a lesser extent, to make the case for it in "Bash" was more surprising.

Goliath and Lexington both come from an era where there was no broadly applied concept of a person's right to self-determination. On the human side was the reign of the Catholic Church (and I'm writing very generally now) which in terms of ethics framed the argument for free will in such a way that while humans have the *capacity* to choose between different courses of action, our *obligation* is to obey God's commands; the fact that they did not was why we were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Therefore, under those circumstances, we don't really have a choice - God's infinite wisdom overrides our mortal judgments. That dogma then went on to inform the monarchies of the day, Scotland not excepting, where kings ruled by Divine Mandate. The idea that a king could be overthrown for unjust rule wasn't introduced until St. Thomas Aquinas, an act which prior to him (and even well after) would have been viewed as taking up arms against the will of God; and even then it was the laws of the Church which would be the standard by which a king would be considered ruling in an unjust manner, not the opinions of his subjects.

The gargoyles' "government" also has no apparent nod to free will or self-determination. Goliath became the leader because Hudson said so, Brooklyn became second-in-command because Goliath said so, and in each case the other gargoyles appear to acquiesce unconditionally to these decisions. Even in mating, you mentioned in the panel that gargoyles aren't necessarily choosing mates as much as they are naturally drawn to one another - even in human rituals it's a subject of debate over just how much "choice" we have in when and with whom we fall in love.

While you've said that gargoyles are free to pursue their own hobbies and curiosities, it doesn't strike me that alone is enough to constitute an understanding of free will in the sense of making determinations about leadership in the way that the clones were being pressured to choose between the Labyrinth and Thailog.

So from what we saw in "Bash," where Lexington demands to know why the clones are choosing to help Thailog, and where Goliath says that "choice must extend to those who choose unwisely" - which is a very different concept than a basic, arbitrary choice between right and wrong - I have to ask: Where have Goliath and Lexington gotten the understanding to ask those questions?

Angela also presents an interesting case, because while she was raised by humans, she was raised by humans for whom it can't be assumed would have had the same understanding of free will as you and I do having grown up in a democratic society as it applies to personal choice, much less in making decisions of leadership. So is her command to Delilah founded more on her hatred of Thailog, or is she also making a case for free will; and if the latter, what informs that for her?

Touching on the same vein: Since 1996 would be the first U.S. election year that the gargoyles have really been exposed to - it seems to me that in 1994 the Manhattan clan was more curious about their new physical surroundings than cultural; and it was a midterm election anyway with much less media hype than a presidential cycle - what do the gargoyles of the Manhattan clan make of democracy, given their less than democratic heritage?

Alex Garg writes...

My review and observations of issue #5, SPOILER heavy.

Starting with the big picture first, this issue is by far the finest to date. It completes the first new canon arc with great pacing, excellent character interactions, and action! Action is always good. The art, too, is some of the best Gargoyles artwork since the series was on air, but then Karine has been drawing Gargoyles artwork since the series was on the air and Stephanie coloring since that time as well, so I will avoid making comparisons to the other artists who have contributed to the comic as newcomers to the property (to say nothing of my bias towards those artists).

Diving into it…

The cover illustration was probably the most eye-grabbing covers I've seen on my local (…ish) comic book store's shelves in a while. It's been a while since Goliath has been so obviously, severely wounded - other times he's tended to suck it up and stay in the fight, this time he was clearly out.

I will be honest that I did NOT catch Mary and Finella's appearance on the first read. It's just been so long since I've seen them that I passed them over; but once I did recognize them, I was glad to see them again - and took my anticipation of Timedancer up a notch.

I also liked how the Judge's opening line was repeated by Thailog under much different circumstances (and I am blanking on the literary term for this…), much like in "Invitation Only" where Thailog took off of the DJ's opening statement.

Jumping ahead to keep with the conflict, I know you said at the Gathering that Angela was speaking *literally* when she called Thailog a bastard, it still seems to me that Angela, of all the clan, would be the least likely to drop that term - because even as Demona's daughter, it's hard for me to perceive even Demona using terms like that. But then Gargoyles was a show for a younger audience, so only you know what the characters are saying "off-screen."

As for the battle itself, Thailog does seem to be having a grand old time going around and slashing the gargoyles and Elisa, really, unopposed - even Brooklyn doesn't seem to put up much of a fight. More here than at other points he comes off as one sadistic, well, bastard.

Delilah's appearance at the end of the battle raises some very interesting questions - which I ask in a post right behind this one - but what I find particularly interesting is just how dismissive she is of the Manhattan clan in favor of her clan. She shuts Angela down, doesn't hesitate to stick it to Goliath, despite his pain, and she doesn't help Brooklyn to his feet on her entrance but rather Malibu. Granted, she has every right to be mad at Goliath for using her, but she seemed pretty cold to him in "Invitation Only" to begin with; and it's not that I ever thought of Delilah as being a friend of the Manhattan clan's, but I also hadn't pictured her as being quite this cold as well.

That she dismisses Thailog too, then, seems to be perfectly in keeping with her character - or what we know of it to this point. Despite being programmed as the "perfect companion," she does not like to be thought of as other people's property.

And then there's the conclusion of the combat where Brooklyn is shot down once again. It can't be easy being Super-Goyle.

Of course, Brooklyn's grief can't overshadow Elisa and Goliath finally coming to terms with their feelings for each other, but what in my mind does seem to rise to the forefront is how Dr. Sato is feeling at that moment. Not only have gargoyles been revealed to him as more than a good foundation for a costume, but that one of his acquaintances has a deep relationship with one must be a lot to take in.

I almost hope that he's too concentrated on keeping Goliath's vitals up to not pick up on Elisa's relationship to him, but somehow I doubt that.

On the Illuminati arc…

So we learn some more about the structure of the Illuminati; not only in the number of members (I should have expected nothing less than for you to have chosen the mother of all numbers in Western culture, and yet I was still surprised) but that at least the senior membership of the Illuminati does have access to a pretty good health plan.

As I said in my review/observations of "Masque," the personal staffers of powerful people tend to have the best access to said powerful people, so why Quincy's revelation necessarily *impressed* Xanatos rather than made sense to him kind of raised my eyebrow.

Then there's Shari, who I was obviously very wrong about being "third wheel." Really I don't have much else to say except mea culpa, and that Thailog looked slightly less than happy that he might be taking marching orders from her, "executive assistant" or not (whereas she seemed fine with it).

Back to the big picture…

What I like most about this issue is that it brings out everything we had seen in the last two issues - the way characters were behaving and interacting with each other, their motives and thought processes, and it resolves a number of issues from "Invitation Only" and earlier while keeping things open for stories down the road. Combined with the last two issues, it finally feels like we've gotten a new *episode* of Gargoyles out rather than a few interesting stories.

Very well done.

Rodrigo Barros writes...

Hi! My name is Rodrigo, I'm 28, from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I got to know Gargoyles on TV down here. One of our networks showed the whole series back to back 2 or 3 times, I think, some time after it was already canceled in the US, or about to be. It was dubbed to Portuguese. Years later, with full grasp of the internet, I got to know more about it, and even managed to watch the whole series again, this time in English.
I was very happy when I heard about the series coming to DVD, and later about the new comic series. And even though I'm sad about the packs not progressing because of sales, that's kinda my question. You see, I know I could by the sets through Amazon.com. Thing is, even though I'm completely able to watch and understand them completely in English, it'd still be nice to have the option of the Portuguese dubbing, since it's how I got to know it in the fist place. Also, with dollar rates, the sets are almost twice as expensive to us down here. Of course, Disney considers risky to release the final set as it seems there weren't enough sales of the other 2, but wouldn't it help if they released it in other markets, International markets that may find difficult to acquire the Region 1 set? Do you believe is it possible for Disney to release the series in other regions, or is it your honest opinion that international fans should try their best to acquire the Region 1 sets?
Thank you very much for your time.

No Name writes...

I can't find issue #5 of the comic book anywhere and I know it was going to be released on July 18. I'm going crazy!!! Can you please tell ne why I can't find it!

Galahad aka New to the Club writes...

So, you recently said that "Goliath makes a bargain" on July 19th 1997. What do you mean? What bargain?

dph writes...

1.Why did Thailog set the ransom demand in Double Jeopardy for $10,000,000? I mean why not more or why not less.

Bazell writes...

This is partially in response to Antiyonder's third question.
Is Brendon really that much of a jerk? I mean, clearly Margot is, but Brendon seems just scared of gargoyles. I mean, in issue #5 I first thought that it was him who informed Dr. Soto that his services were needed. Or was it Owen who called the doctor?

Bazell writes...

In "A Long Way To Morning," Demona, Hudson and Goliath do not turn to stone until the clouds clear and the sunlight shines through - with the sun clearly well over the horizon, suggesting a bit of time has passed after sunrise. However, in "The Silver Falcon," Broadway turns to stone even though he is in a basement, cut off from the light of the sun, suggesting a circadian rhythm. Was it simply an animation error in "A Long Way To Morning," or is there a reason for this. (I assume it's the animation, but I was curious)

Antiyonder writes...

Read issue 5 today. Looking at the pictures, it really does look like I'm watching/reading the cartoon. Comments and question (though not in that order).

1. Has the Illuminati numbering always been consistent? Or has there been say an occasional 19 "20 ranked members" or 20 "30 ranked members"?

2. I was pretty much expecting Morgan to be the one who finds out about the clan, but Dr. Sato was a good choice as well. Nice to see Robbins figuring out Hudson's secret as well.

3. Nice to see that there isn't any lost love between Brendan and Margot. Though I fear for the fate of the Gargoyle Universe if those two have children. Demona, Thailog, The Space Spawn, even Mab couldn't be that much of a threat to the planet. Just had to say that here.

4. Been meaning to bring this up sooner, but thought I'd ask given Brooklyn's costume choice. Out of any of the Manhattan Clan, which if any do you see enjoying a good comic book.

As far as the absense of voice actors go, at least any mystery theme characters showing up will be more of a challenge to figure out without vocal clues.

Looking forward to #6.