Kaylle writes...

Way back in October 2005, the day they released the cover art for the second DVD set, I watched a bunch of episodes instead of doing my homework and typed up my musings on them (mostly on Hunter's Moon and the Goliath/Elisa relationship) in my livejournal. Today I'm *still* trying to avoid my homework, and the queue is open again, so I thought I'd dig up those old musings and get your opinion on them (I may have posted something like this in the CR once as well; my apologies if you happened to catch it there). So here they are. I wrote:

"At the end of HM3, Elisa and Goliath finally get some "resolution" to their relationship. The infamous kiss it took us (and them) 65 episodes to get to. I hate to call it resolution at all because it doesn't really resolve anything; their relationship is still in a pretty uncertain place and kissing hardly changes that. But it's the first time they both admit what's going on between them and do something, however small, about it. And it provided some small measure of satisfaction for the fans, who were just beginning to realize that was all we were going to get. I remember being so hopeful, so excited, 13 years old, watching in awe as finally, *finally* the two of them "got together." I hadn't realized it was the season finale, although really it was pretty obvious (I didn't know cartoon shows *had* season finales). And I certainly hadn't realized it was, for all intents and purposes, the end." [Of course, I know now what I didn't know in October 2005-- it wasn't the end! We have a comic book!]

"But I digress. Anyway, I noticed two things today. First, in HM1, during the scene on the subway: after he dispatches the muggers, Elisa goes to Goliath, lays her head down on his chest, and says, "Nobody messes with my best friend." I always thought that was kind of a dangerous thing to say in public, although sweet. But I noticed today the way that Goliath reacts to it. Maybe I never noticed before, or maybe I just don't remember, but he reaches to touch her hair and then stops himself, grimaces, and pulls away. It happens so quickly it's easy to miss it. But something about that aborted gesture of affection really intrigues me.

"Did he stop because he thought she wouldn't appreciate the sentiment? Haven't we seen him touch her that way before? It's hard to remember because the two of them get so very few explicitly affectionate moments. There aren't a lot of episodes that deal with them. (The most obvious is The Mirror, but that was so long before this that it's hard to use it as an indication of their relationship now. Although there is that moment, while Demona and Puck are spying on them via the mirror, when Elisa sort of nuzzles her face into Goliath's shoulder. I'd love to know what the conversation was that led her to do *that*...) Their relationship is very clear to the viewer, but it's also very understated. Any romantic moments like that are part of some larger scene, some larger conversation, etc. (I was half-convinced, when I was a kid, that it was because Disney didn't want to deal with the xenophilia aspect. Now I can see that it's in character for them to act that way; both of them know what's going on but they can't admit it, can't act on it because they're certain there's no future in it. But when you're 12-13 years old you miss some of the subtler points <g>.) So, while I can think of romantic moments between Goliath and Demona, MacBeth and Gruoch, etc, Goliath and Elisa are much more subtle than that.

"So then I went picking through episodes looking for Goliath/Elisa moments. (Aren't they cute in Eye of the Beholder, dancing in their Halloween 'costumes'? Even the trio notices. "They should have Halloween more often.") As early as Awakenings 5, we see Elisa take his face in her hands. The closest embrace I can find is in Heritage, after Elisa's disappearance. They both look pretty happy to see each other there, and she doesn't show any reluctance to touch him or be held by him.

"So anyway, it could be because he thinks she won't appreciate the gesture. She has shied away from discussing their relationship in the past. Or it could be because they're in a train full of people (although, again, she's pretty much given them away to everyone on the train already).

"Or it could be because he doesn't want to let himself touch her? Because letting himself caress her hair (the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss, even if Elisa doesn't necessarily know that) means pretending, if only for a moment, that they have a relationship? And because he can't stand doing that to himself over and over again? Something to think about, anyway.

"The other thing that I noticed was that, although Goliath saw Elisa kiss Jason and heard what she said about her feelings, she doesn't know that. As far as she knows, nothing between them has changed since HM1. Obviously they're both happy to see each other after Jason rescues her (although Goliath is probably "happier" than Elisa is; at least, she didn't think he was dead). But nothing has happened, to her knowledge, to bring things between them to a head. So why does she finally decide to admit her feelings to him? Her dialogue doesn't really tell us anything, either. He says, "So... Things have come full circle," and Elisa replies, "Somehow, they always do. You know how I feel about you, right?" She brings it up apropos of nothing. (He doesn't seem startled by it, either. Why is that? I sure as heck was!)

"Is it her relationship with Jason? The realization that, even when presented with someone human who seems to be everything she's looking for (at least at first), she still wants Goliath? When offered the normal life she thinks she wants, she still chooses Goliath and the clan, and all the uncertainty and upheaval they imply. Is that it? Of course, they've had a traumatic couple of days, and that could be a reason all by itself."

At that point I decided that I'd spent way too much time analyzing things and that I really ought to be doing work, so I stopped. But I'm still intrigued by it all. I guess if I had to distill it down into a few questions, they would be:

1) Is there a reason for Goliath's gesture (or lack thereof) on the train, or am I thinking too hard/paying too much attention to tiny details?

2) Does Elisa know that touching hair is the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss? (Maybe not in so many words, since I doubt the gargoyles think of it in terms of how their gestures of affection are equivalent to human gestures, but does she realize the sort of underlying meaning of a touch like that?) And if so, how does she know? Just from observation and intuition? Did someone tell her?

3) Why does Elisa finally speak up at the end of HM3? What changes her mind about keeping quiet?

Thanks for listening to me ramble on a bit, and for taking the time to answer our questions. It's only out of love that we analyze every aspect of things :)

Rachel N. writes...

Hello, Greg.
One of my favorite episodes of Gargoyles is "Eye of the Beholder" (from Season 2). Whose idea was it to have Elisa wear Belle's gold ballgown as her Halloween costume? Was it your idea? Are you a fan of Disney's Beauty & the Beast?

Audra writes...

Hi Greg,
I just got comic #3 in the mail yesterday, and after reading it, I'm very excited! I'm so happy to have new Gargoyle stories written by you. For many years I have told my friends how I miss Gargoyles so so much... And when I say that, I meant new stories.

The art in comic #3 I think more like the TV show then the first two. (And I think it looks great!) I was quite surprised by what happened with Goliath and Elisa though. For some reason, I never thought Elisa would do that. Especially after Hunter's Moon. I don't know, I guess I am just a hopeless romantic, heh. But I guess I can't really relate to Elisa. I don't care so much about having kids, and having the normal family life... But it's important to me to be love with someone who loves me. I am in a long distance relationship, and have been for almost two years. I love my boyfriend so much and even though our relationship is hard because he lives on the other side of the world, I wouldn't change it for anything. (We see each other a few times a year, and he will be moving here after next year, but that's besides the point) I guess I just felt like Goliath and Elisa's love was strong enough to over come anything, but I guess not... Or at least, Elisa is not thinking of that at that moment... I really look forward to more comics, and I really want to know what happens with Goliath and Elisa... I'm so happy though about these comics being made!

Charisma82 writes...

Hey! I've wanted to do rambles on all the gargoyles' episodes, and have only gotten around to the first one. So I wouldn't forget anything, I wrote my ramble as I watched the episode instead of summing it all up and highlighting certain things. I did the same thing with the Gargoyles Comic Book #3: Invitation Only. I went through page by page and wrote about each one. I did this so I wouldn't forget anything. So, since it is kinda long, here are the first 12 pages.

Gargoyles: Clan-Building
Part Three: Invitation Only

Part 1 Pages 1-12

Page 1: At first glance, I thought that the invitation on the table had been sent to Washington and that I was looking at the president's desk, or something like that, until I looked at the next page. I really like the mask next to the invitation. I also like how Alexander's name was included on the invitation. I wonder what he'll be doing while his parents are at their party. Will he be with them or somewhere else… (I'm not lingering off here to sound mysterious, I just didn't know what else to put).

Page 2: I love Alexander's costume. I also like the quote, "Sure, Manhattan may be infested with real monsters, but it's not like the beasties can talk, right?" People are really trying to make them look like horrible monsters, and to do that, they make them look unintelligent and degrade them. But then again, how many of these people have really met one?

Page 3: I like that Matt is in charge of the taskforce and not Elisa. It gives him a bigger role to play and it doesn't make Elisa look like the biggest Gargoyle fan out there. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's better to lay low and not have stupid people ruining her life because they know she's a gargoyle lover (talking about the average Joe out there who wants to vandalize stuff and needs a good reason to do so). I also like being introduced to new characters. I hope to see more of the new detectives.

Page 4: I like Morgan's line, "Uh, detective… I mean… Elisa…" It's weird to hear his voice in my head say her name, cause he's always calling her detective. I was also I bit weirded out with him asking Elisa out. I just can't see the 2 of them together or thinking that Morgan has a thing for her. I always saw him as an older mentor type to her. Him actually calling it a date made it even… well… weirder.

Page 5: I love this page. Matt totally distrusts Hacker, and acts like he'd rather stick his head in a trashcan instead of talk to him. He also acts disgusted with him. It's all good. I like how Hacker makes Matt use their code when Matt could've done without it. "Formalities must be observed." Matt's face is priceless when Hacker puts his arm around him. I should probably mention something about Hacker's speech about the world not being ready to have gargoyle and humans together yet, just to set myself up for when I mention his other speeches with Xanatos and Castaway. Well… I guess I just mentioned it.

Page 6: It's good to see Jason again. I miss not hearing his voice; it's a good thing I've got it stored up in my head. I didn't expect to see him handcuffed to his bead. I find it almost humorous, handcuffing a paralyzed guy to his bed. But then again, he's full of surprises. His conversation with Elisa is typical. He still holds a spark for her and she's second-guessing her relationship with Goliath. It had to come up eventually. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't want to see Elisa with a gargoyle. There's still some dislike going on there for the species, I think. I do hope that Jason finds someone else though. He deserves a second chance.

Page 7: More breaking out of stone. It's funny to see Elisa trying not to get hit with stone. It's interesting to see Angela and Broadway holding hands now. They don't seem worried to show that they like each other. I also like Brooklyn's look over from the corner.

Page 8: You can see more of Angela's naiveté here with her not knowing much about Halloween. Elisa looks reluctant to speak with Goliath, but goes on with it and confronts him.

Page 9: What a teaser! What did the gargoyles decide to dress up as? I can't wait to find out in the next comic. I really don't like that Brooklyn is folding his wings underneath his arms now. Is that going to be a new permanent thing? Are you trying to distinguish his look by doing this? It just doesn't look right. I like the hint at where Hudson and Bronx are going to be going. All I have to say is that I hope they are going where I think they're going. I also like how Lex is still weary of Fox. After Broadway tells Angela that no one will know that they are gargoyles, her follow up question is a good one. "And that's a good thing?"

Page 10: Now to the more emotional page. Goliath is taken off guard and backs away when Elisa says that their feelings "are not enough." She makes a good point. How can Goliath argue with her reasoning? The line, "Goliath, I want children…" was a big hit on him, I think. He is actually speechless after this.

Page 11: Again with Hacker and his "formalities". More number stuff. I like the up close looks on Hacker and Xanatos' faces when they give their numbers. Xanatos is as calm as ever and Hacker looks about the same. I had to go back and look at Matt's face when he said his number on page 5. He looks annoyed. Anyways, back to page 11. Hacker looks funny with the mask on his face. It's also interesting to hear Xanatos speak of a "phase one." Him and his plans and phases. Too bad Xanatos can't go to his party. I guess he won't be playing host.

Page 12: I almost missed this page and went right to page 13. It's a good thing I went back and looked. More of Hacker's teasing lies. He says one thing to Matt, and another to Xanatos. Exactly when is he telling the truth? Who knows except you, Greg? Xanatos seems to tolerate this guy. I get the feeling he doesn't like him much, though. It's just the way he talks to him.

Okay, so there's my ramble on the first half of the 3rd comic book. Hope you didn't fall asleep or anything like that.

Thank you for your time, your patience, and a great comic book.

-Charisma82

Shannon 'Shan' Muir writes...

Forgive me if this is in the archives and I couldn't come up with the right keywords. Is Goliath the first thing Elisa's ever had in the way of a serious relationship? Between the fact we know she was very job focused from the beginning, and the heavy amount of almost childlike naivete in how she describes her dreams to Goliath in Issue 3, I'm inclined to think that this is the case that she's never been anywhere near a balanced work-life relationship before. But I'm not certain.

Maria writes...

If Goliath and Elisa had chidren what would they name them?

Liz writes...

I've been a fan of Gargoyles since the show first came out, and that hasn't changed. I know Broadway and Angela end up together, but early on I got the impression that Broadway sort of had a crush on Elisa. (IE, showing up randomly at her place to grab a meal or watch a movie, and so on) Was that in any way true, or was my thirteen-year-old self just reading too much into it at the time?

Makhasu writes...

Who does Demona hate most: Goliath, Macbeth, or Elisa?

Makhasu writes...

What does Elisa think of Delilah? It must be pretty disconcerting to know there's a clone of her and Demona.

JJ Gregarius writes...

Another thought about Bonkers...

At one point here, you said

By the way, the Miranda/ Bonkers relationship was a clear precedent for Elisa/Goliath. (Doesn't that seem strange?)

Yes, that seems extremely strange, given some of the more salient aspects of the Elisa/Goliath relationship. Could you elaborate on what you meant? Are you just talking about pairing up a human female lead with a non-human male lead in crime-fighting stories?

Perhaps one day I'll have a bona-fide Gargoyles question to ask here.

Until then, JJ signing off.

P.S. Here's hoping the Gargoyles comics are thriving by the time you read this.