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Bronx and Cagney
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Lord Sloth writes...
Are the events in "Turf" and "Vendettas" ment to be happing at the same time? If they are, why wasn't Bronx with Goliath and Hudson in Vendettas and why were they gone for two night? If they wern't, why was it that Goliath, Hudson and Bronx were away two nights in Turf?
Also, In "Turf", why does Jack Danforth(is that his name) know so much about the Prison system and where Dracon was held? And what made Danforth want to join in the mob buisness? Don't the Feds keep a watch on their relocated witnesses? For that matter, why was Jack a relocated witness? What was he a whitness of?
Merci
Greg responds...
The events depicted in "Vendettas" (not counting the 7/18/96 prologue in Scotland) took place between August 1st and 2nd, 1996. Though neither Goliath or Hudson made it back to the clock tower before sunrise on the morning of the 2nd. The events of "Turf" took place between August 2nd and 3rd. Bronx was having his own little adventure at that time.
Jack Danforth (aka Jack Dane) has been in the prison system. And he still has friends inside. He made it his business to know. Dane wasn't joining the mob business. He was REJOINING the mob business. He was a mobster who was at odds with the Dracon family and had (at some point) testified against them. The Feds were aware that Dane had un-relocated. But they needed evidence to bring him in. Elisa eventually provided that evidence.
Lord Sloth writes...
Is Cagney a male or a female kitty?
BTW, I think Cagney is quite cool, and love it whenever <s>he gets an appearence. Would you have ever made an episode all about Cagney?
Greg responds...
Initially, I assumed that Cagney was named after Christine Cagney of Cagney & Lacey, and thus assumed the cat was a she. Later, I was informed by Michael Reaves that Cagney was named after James Cagney -- and thus a he.
An all Cagney episode? I don't know about that. But he'd have gotten more play certainly. Maybe a Bronx and Cagney team-up?
Lord Sloth writes...
I take it thet Bronx's sudden appearance in "the Mirror" was an accedent, but did\could you come up with some sort of explanation for how he got there. A non Smart Ass answer would be nice, but I'll try to understand if you can't resist.
Greg responds...
I never said it was an accident. They went and got him.
Gipdac writes...
1) You've said that Bronx will have children. How many children will he and his mate (Boudicca, right?) have?
2) Will they have names?
3) If the answer to two is yes, then what are their names?
4) Will they be raised on Avalon or in Manhattan?
Greg responds...
1. Not saying.
2. Yes.
3. Not and Saying.
4. Not saying.
matt writes...
oh, and why did Gliath tell the trio to take Bronx down to the rookery with them when they got in trouble in "Awakening Part 1"?
Greg responds...
He seemed to be part of the disturbance.
laura writes...
boudicca is the son of bronx?
who is the mother?
Greg responds...
No. First off, Boudicca is female. Second off, she's not Bronx's son OR daughter. She's his mate.
matt writes...
in "Awakening" we see Bronx playing with the trio. was Bronx more often with the trio then other gargs or was he just playing with them that night? what i mean is, was Bronx more a pet to the trio or had more of a connection with them than other members of the clan?
Greg responds...
Yes, generally.
matt writes...
well Todd, if you are not going to ask it, i guess i will...
in "Legion" when Coldstone first arrives at the Clocktower, Bronx is growling. Iago hasn't come to the surface yet, so is Bronx growling cuz he has something against Coldstone or robots/cyborgs, or does he sense the evil one inside Coldstone or what?
Greg responds...
I guess the latter. I'd have to look at it again.
Jim R. writes...
Greg, in a reply to matt's question you said Boudicca is older than Bronx. But how could that be since Bronx was with the rest of the clan in 994 A.D. and I'm guessing Boudicca is a beast which hatched with the rest of the garg eggs that were taken to Avalon? How could Boudicca be older than Bronx if this is true? I would not think that is should have to do with anything about how time passes more slowly on Avalon either, because logically Bronx would still be older or about the same age even though he was stone for a 1000 years.
Greg responds...
Boudicca is biologically older than Bronx. Bronx is chronologically older than Boudicca.
Boudicca is the same biological age as Angela, who is approximately the same biological age as the Trio. (Though CHRONOLOGICALLY, the Trio is MUCH older.)
Bronx is chronologically twenty years younger than the Trio. Biologically ten years younger. Which makes him approximately ten biological years younger than Boudicca.
Whew!
matt writes...
you've said numerous times that Bronx mated and will mate again with Boidekka, but since Bronx was born a generation after the trio wouldn't he be way to young to mate? if the fertility cycle is different for beasts than can they mate and concieve more often in life than the standard gargoyles? i understand that Boidekka, being older than Bronx, is probably able to concieve, but Bronx just seems too young. does it matter that he is male, as in males can mate and concieve earlier in life than females?
Greg responds...
Again, it depends how you're defining "mated". Do you mean "take a mate"? Do you mean "produce offspring"? Do you mean "have intercourse"?
Boudicca is older than Bronx. But Beasts mature faster than Gargoyles. The cycle is the same, but the maturity rate is different. Bronx is an adult and has been for years.
Siren writes...
1. Does the clan ever give Bronx a bath?
2. Does he smell like a dog after a while?
Greg responds...
1. Sure.
2. Why would he?
matt writes...
what did you imagine the other Avalon beast (besides Boudikka) looks like? more like Bronx, perhaps a biological relative, younger sister? i don't suppose you know the name of this beast, do you? if so, what is its name? why didn't Bronx go for this beast over Boudikka, or did he mate with both? did Boudikka just smell better, or not smell like a biological relative, or is Boudikka more attractive in a non-olfatory way to Bronx?
Greg responds...
Ahh, who can explain this crazy little thing called love?
Basilisk writes...
You've said that gargoyles concieve eggs every twenty years and the eggs take ten years to hatch. What are the intervals for gargoyle beasts?
Greg responds...
The same.
Justin writes...
Dear Greg,
You mentioned that Bronx and Boudicca are mates, and that they will mate again. Will any from the Avalon clan (Including Boudicca) go to Manhattan?
Thanx
Greg responds...
Boudicca's already been once.
There may be exchange programs worked out in the future.
matt writes...
in response to JESS, i've admitted that Bronx is more intelligent and emotional than your average dog, but pride is a big emotion! we've seen Bronx show love and fear but if you look at any animal you can see signs of love and fear that doesn't mean they are capable of emotion, just instinct. what i'm asking you, Greg, is Bronx capable of emotion or are all his actions based on instinct or training?
Greg responds...
These don't seem mutually exclusive to me.
JESS writes...
This is a general comment not a question, sorry.
matt writes about bronx not being able to feel pride ...
if he's comparing bronx to a dog, i know for a fact some dogs have a sense of humour, and can get jelous - so why not pride ??
also bronx seems to show considerable intelligence in the series, and to understand, pretty much, what is being said.
( cue "why not pride" question again!)
OK here's one for you, greg - does he?
Greg responds...
Don't see why not.
matt writes...
at the end of "hound of Ulster" Goliath says that Bronx has a right to be proud of himself. now, i like Bronx and i think he is smarter and at times more emotional than your average dog but he is still an animal and i don't quite see how he can feel pride. maybe love, and fear, and loyalty, but pride???
Greg responds...
My dog, and certainly my cats, definitely demonstrate something at times that looks a hell of a lot like pride to me. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
(matt, this post is such a disappointment.... :)
Todd Jensen writes...
I was just reading your latest "early development documents", and noticed that in one of them, Bronx was depicted as flying about. Did he actually have wings in this stage of the development?
(I also noticed that he was definitely even more omnivorous in those documents than I'd expected - actually eating a fire hydrant and a nunchaku? I hadn't seriously thought that even he would classify them as food).
Greg responds...
He had wing-shaped ears, which he could flap quickly like a humming bird. This resulted in lifting him a few inches off the ground. But he also had a mace-shaped tail, which weighed him down enough to prevent him from flying or even fully hovering.
matt writes...
about how many garg beasts are left in the world in 1996? closer to 10 or 100.
Greg responds...
Closer to 100.
Todd Jensen writes...
One little piece in your "Names" ramble that puzzled me - the description of Bronx (or the character that would become Bronx) as "angst-ridden". I must confess that Bronx never seemed "angst-ridden" to me. (Actually, most of the time, it's rather difficult to say what might be going on in Bronx's head). Or was that description meant to be an ironic one?
Greg responds...
Our original thinking on Bronx was much more comic, much more comic-relief. (Todd, you just gotta come to a Gathering and see the original pitch art and the original design of the character.)
Frank Paur was instrumental in transforming Bronx (first visually, the rest followed) into the beast we know and love.
Anonymous writes...
Hello Greg
You said that Bronx and Boudicca were mates and would mate but you posted that Bronx in 9 at the end of 1996 and since Boudicca is from Angela's rookery you said she would be 20 at the end of 1996.
So my questions are
1) Can Gargoyle Beasts mate at 9 years old?
2) If yes to question 1 why didn't Boudicca already mate?
Greg responds...
1. Yes.
2. Cycles.
Vashkoda writes...
1) Ed previously asked how old Cagney was, and you asked "when?". So how old was he at the end of "The Journey"?
2a) Sadly, cats have nowhere near the lifespan of gargoyle beasts, and eventually, Cagney will pass away. Do you think Elisa would get another pet to replace him? b) Bronx is sort of the gargoyles' pet, but does Elisa consider him a little like her pet as well?
3a) How many offspring will Bronx and Boudicca have? b) Do all the pups stay with their mother on Avalon, or will any join their father in Manhattan? c) Will the other female beast that you said lived on Avalon also have a pup at the same time as Boudicca?
Greg responds...
1. About three.
2a. Don't know yet. Maybe.
2b. Not exactly. Like your best friend's pet.
3a. One for starters.
3b. With the Avalon clan for starters.
3c. Most likely.
Yttrium writes...
You've mentioned that Bronx wouldn't be hatched when DARK AGES began. Would he have been hatched later down the line in the series?
---Ytt
Greg responds...
Yes. If we lasted long enough. Dark Ages starts in 971. Bronx hatches in 978. But in my dreams, we'd run the Dark Ages series for 23 years... from 971 to 994.
Vashkoda writes...
1) Given your habit of recycling names back into the show, I was wondering if you had plans of reusing the name "Tribeca" that you had originally assigned to Bouddica?
2) Who came up with the name and how? I just found out that Tribecca is a place in NY. It makes me wonder why you were going to give that name to a beast from Avalon, though.
Greg responds...
1. That was Brynne's name (or Lydia's) not mine. So it's less desperate to get attention in my head. But anything's possible, and that kind of thing amuses me. So who knows?
2. I never was. It would have made no sense. It was just a place-holder in a script where the beast was seen but not named in dialogue. It gave us another couple weeks to come up with an actual name.
matt writes...
what is the average lifespan of a gargoyle beast?
are multipule births more common among gargoyle beast?
Greg responds...
Hard to say given the lack of grand old gargoyle beasts around. But I'd say about 160-180 years.
No.
Ed writes...
How old is Cagney? :)
Greg responds...
When?
Clan Census writes...
About what percentage of the gargoyle population (at Wyvern 994, if not worldwide) is comprised of beasts, like Bronx and Boudicca?
Greg responds...
Worldwide, ten percent, I guess.
But the question is strange. Like asking "About what percentage of the human population is comprised of chimpanzees?"
Phil writes...
Hi again, Greg!
Do gargoyle beasts mate for life like sentient gargoyles do? You've said that Bronx and Boudicca have mated and will mate again. Does this preclude them from mating with other beasts they may meet? (Poor Bronx, stuck in a long distance relationship.)
Thanks for your time.
Greg responds...
Yes. Basically.
Siren writes...
Rewriting an older questions...About cat-goyles. Bad phrasing and all. What I meant was, Bronx is a gargoyles beast with dog-like attibutes. He barks, growls, pants, etc. I was wondering if there were any cat-like gargoyle beasts? Gargoyle beasts that purred, hissed, cleaned themselves, etc.
Greg responds...
Maybe...
cfhuber writes...
Dear Greg,
Some questions on Garg Beasts:
1) You've pretty well established that most Gargoyle Clans have Garg Beasts in the community. But are there any wild or feral (i.e. returned to the wild when their Clans died out) Garg Beasts? Presumably it would be challenging for a pair in tbe wild to protect themselves and their eggs, but since the eggs go to stone in the daytime, too, nothing much but humans could destroy them, so some might have survived in remote regions.
2) Do you know how far back Gargoyles domesticated Garg Beasts? Around the same time as humans began domesticating dogs, or earlier?
Thanks for a wonderful show, and hope to make the LA Gathering next year.
Greg responds...
1. Maybe.
2. Earlier.
Say hi at the Gathering.
The Gatekeeper writes...
Hi Greg,
To refresh your memory, you answered the following question posted by Slylar on 7/26/00.
Question:
More a comment than a question: When once one person asked, if there are any cat-like or just dog-like gargoylebeasts, I think he meant more the looking than the behavior *g*
Answer:
Does Bronx really look like any dog you know or does his behavior make him seem more dog-like?
I would like to add my comments about Bronx. To me, his appearance and mannerisms are very much like that of a English bulldog; except that most modern bulldogs are generally unaggressive. Most of his gentle moments are matched by the actions of my own bulldogs.
The primary comparison, which I think is why most people think of him as a gardog or doggoyle etc., is in how he looks. Bronx has the extended lower jaw, the very heavy chest with slender hindquarters, and the stubby tail that one normally associates with an English bulldog. I was surprised when in "The Mirror" Puck changed him into an Irish Wolfhound. As you said in one of your rambles, "a bulldog might have been more reminiscent", though less of a threat; the bulldogs I've known would have just knocked Puck over and covered him with slobber.
I liked the animation sequence was at the end of Leader of the Pack where Bronx was howling as the water got closer to him. That was extremely cute. I also thought it particularly significant that it was Goliath that came back for him. Of course, as leader, he should have, since Bronx is part of the clan; but it also shows that Goliath has that special affection for Bronx that we humans have for our own pets.
Greg responds...
Well, I won't deny Bronx's doggy qualities. My point was simply that he's more beast than dog. More Gargoyle than dog. We're trying to keep them a separate species. Not simply model them on other animals. There are obvious exceptions, Griff, Leo, Una, Zafiro. And there may be other exceptions as well, but frankly, I'd have to see the justification in architecture or legend. I'm not going to simply start creating Zebra-goyles, Giraffe-goyles and Ostritch-Goyles.
Aris Katsaris writes...
I read one of the early memos you just posted, and this bit in particular : "Bronx, the gargoyle-dog does not have wings. His ears allow him to hover a bit for short periods of time."
I really have to wonder. How the hell were you envisioning this? His *ears* allow him to hover? He flies with his *ears*? Was this some kind of Dumbo reference? I'm really amazed that something like this would have been thought of in the dramatic version of gargoyles.... :-)
Greg responds...
You have to see the art. And you CAN -- by attending any GATHERING. (Heck, Aris, I know L.A. and Greece are far apart, but you really don't want to miss out. And, hey, we've had people come from Japan, Israel, Ireland, Germany, Belgium, England and Kissimee. Start planning now.)
Anyway, Paul Felix's drawing of Bronx was so funny, we didn't care if the tone was slightly off. Bronx would be a bit more of a comic relief character. But Frank came in and disagreed. And he was right, of course. But man, what a great drawing.
Warrioress writes...
Here's a thought:
What breed of cat is Cagney? Russian Blue? Korat?
Did Elisa get him at a shelter or from a breeder?
;-)
Greg responds...
I don't know.
Cagney probably adopted Elisa, not the other way around.
Todd Jensen writes...
This is a sort of addendum to my "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" response, since there were a couple of things in it that I'd meant to say but forgot about at the time.
One little touch that I always liked in this one was the brief scenelets with Bronx - first, when Lexington is yanking a magazine out from underneath him with great difficulty, and then when Hudson calls him, and Bronx jumps up, bounds over to Hudson's armchair, and lies down beside it again.
I don't recall having any problems over misinterpreting the "sealed by my own hand" part, but it is interesting to note that the closed captioning that I saw on my taped copy put Macbeth reading the Scrolls' inscription within quotation marks, indicating that they did recognize that he was reading the writing and that it was Merlin who'd sealed the Scrolls. (I just thought that I'd cite a case where the folks in charge of the closed captioning correctly interpreted something).
I was a bit surprised by your account that the lyre's music was caused by the wind blowing through it; I'd always assumed that it was playing by itself through some sort of magic (particularly given the way that it was shimmering). Thanks for clearing up the account of the visit to Merlin's cave.
(And, regarding Merlin's inscription on the chest, one reflection that I had about it was that the Scrolls truly would be valuable only to the "seeker after knowledge" and not to the "destroyer", as Macbeth found out at the end when he actually read them).
Greg responds...
Yep.
I liked that bit about Bronx's special rappor with Hudson too.
Anonymous writes...
In Hound of Ulster was Cuchulainn lying when he said he use to have a hound similar to Bronx? According to Celtic myths he never owned a hound, but he did kill one.
Greg responds...
Maybe the Celtic myths were incomplete.
Todd Jensen writes...
In "Awakening Part Four", when Hudson and Bronx are watching television, Bronx is up on one of the couches in the room. Just what is the clan's policy regarding Bronx on the furniture? Is he generally allowed up on it? (Of course, then again, if Bronx wants up on the couch, who's going to tell him that he can't get on it? :)
Greg responds...
My dog Norman has his own barca-lounger in our den. So who am I to tell Bronx where he can sit?
Siren writes...
A little question from The Gathering eps
With Boudicca (sp?) and the Oberon thing...
Is she just very obidiant or did he place a spell on her?
Greg responds...
She's obedient to those she trusts.
Todd Jensen writes...
Re your bit on "Turf" and "Vendettas" happening simultaneously:
You're correct that the finished product doesn't quite fit that element, for one reason. In "Vendettas", Goliath and Hudson are on their own. In "Turf", they have Bronx off with them. Guess that must have somehow crept in in the course of making the episode.
Greg responds...
Kinda. OR maybe, Bronx was on his own having his own adventure with Cagney. And the Trio simply assumed that Bronx was with Goliath and Hudson.
Anonymous writes...
Hi Greg.
Despite the fact that I'm hopelessly behind in my planned attempt to respond to all you episode rambles, I'm gonna take some time out to ask you a few questions I've been thinking about. This set is about gargoyle-beasts.
1. Would the Manhattan clan refer to Bronx as a "gargoyle-beast", a "gargoyle", or something else entirely. In other words, do they use a different name for Bronx's species than their own?
2. We know that Bronx is at least as smart as a very intelligent dog, possibly smarter. He's at least capable of thoughts such as "That is a big dangerous monster. I should most likely attack it." ("The Hound of Ulster") and "That is a robot. I may therefore maul its face, though this may not be permissible on a human being." ("Leader of the Pack") Something along those lines, though maybe not with such flowery language. Anyways, about how smart IS Bronx, or the average gargoyle-beast? Are the beasts in fact as intelligent as regular gargoyles, but simply unable to speak? As smart as chimpanzees? Not nearly as smart as I seem to think they are?
3. The other gargoyles in the Manhattan clan seem to realize that Bronx has a fair degree of intelligence. Lexington and Brooklyn tell him to "go get help" rather than "go find Goliath" or even "go back to the castle and bark". (Okay, so he did end up running down the street and causing havoc. But he understood.) Goliath tells him to "help Angela", not "move the roccks off of Angela".
How much does the clan think Bronx understands. Just commands like these? Or does Hudson think he understands every word he says when he talks to him?
Greg responds...
1. Generally, no. Which doesn't mean they aren't aware of the distinction. They do call him a beast on occasion.
2. They're pretty darn smart. They understand something like "FIND GOLIATH!" But they couldn't understand. "Hide in the dark for five minutes and then FIND GOLIATH!" The first part of that sentence would be gibberish to them. And they'd immediately take off in search of Goliath.
3. Simple commands only. Find. Help. Protect. Etc.
Siren writes...
Hey Greg, just a question Bronx and the Mirror
When Puck turned Bronx into a dog, why did he look so much like a blue retriever or even an Irish Wolfhound? I had always pictured Bronx as bulldog/pit bull/and or boxer type of dog. He is so robust and bulky, more like a giant bulldog then anything else. Being pit bulls and boxers are usually tall and slender, but powerhouses all the same. Is that how Puck invisioned him or would Bronx really be like that as a real dog?
BTW, Mirror is my fav ep, I love the animation and Elisa was the most beautiful gargoyle. Her colors were just so cool.
Greg responds...
I don't know how to say what Bronx would really be like as a real dog.
We picked a Wolfhound cuz that's the biggest dog.
Warrioress writes...
Are there only canine-like garg beasts, or are there other animal types as well?
Greg responds...
What in your mind defines Bronx as "Canine-like" besides his bark?
Mike J. (repost by Aris) writes...
ENTER MACBETH
A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.
As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)
My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.
My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.
Greg responds...
Bronx may be pound for pound stronger than Goliath. But his breaking through those bars had more to do with MOMENTUM, I think.
Todd Jensen (repost by Aris) writes...
A slightly silly question, but: do gargoyle beasts ever suffer from fleas, ticks, and other parasites?
Greg responds...
Not during the day.
Vashkoda writes...
1) What will be the reason(s) why Broadway and Angela name their children after Arthur and Gwenivere? 2) Why do they name their third child Samson? 3) Will Lex be anyone's biological father? 4) Will Samson? 5) Will Bronx?
Greg responds...
1. There are many reasons. One that I'm happy to reveal is that after Broadway's experience in "Lighthouse" and Angela's experience on "Avalon", they're both fans.
2. This may get reworked in the revised Gargoyles 2158. As soon as I have the new "future history" nailed down, I'll make a general announcement.
3. I'm not telling.
4. I'm not telling.
5. Yes.
Fenrir writes...
Greetings Mr. Weisman!
Thanks for answering our questions. It means a lot.
I apologize if this has been asked before, but I did not see the answer in the archives. Approximately how many Gargoyle-Beasts were at Castle Wyvern in the year 994? There was at least one (Bronx) and presumably at least one female (to lay the Boudicca egg at the Wyvern rookery). What I'm getting at is: Who are Boudicca's biological parents? Is Bronx her father? Or would he be too young?
Greg responds...
Bronx is not Boudicca's father. He's too young. I don't know exactly who her bio-parents are. They had no names after all. But there was a goodly number of Garg Beasts at Wyvern. Animation budgets prevented us from showing you the full clan. Sorry.
Skylar writes...
Some questions about garg-beasts:
1. I was looking at some screenshots of Bronx and wasn´t able to find anyone where you can see his pupils.
So are Bronx´s eyes allways glowing? Can´t they stop?
2. This question might seem stupid, but: Are gargoylebeasts furry? (Sometimes I think they have hair, sometimes they don´t. - The stomach seems to be furry, but I´m not shure.)
3. If they are furry (or some of them), are also gargoylebeasts able, that have longer hair (like the different hair length of different dog races, for example), maybe that long, that they have to be trimed regulary so that it doesn´t reach the ground? (It´s not an idea, just a question. I was just wondering about in this moment.)
4. More a comment than a question: When once one person asked, if there are any cat-like or just dog-like gargoylebeasts, I think he meant more the looking than the behavior *g*
5. Are any gargoylebeasts out there that have wings, or aren´t they able to?
6. Is it right, that the word "gargoylebeast" or something like that never was used during the hole TV-Show? If so, can it be, that gargoyles never use this word and that they doesn´t even know the word, cause they never needed it, cause they call all gargoyles just "gargoyles" and talk of/with the gargoylebeasts using their name (- In case it´s a gargoylebeast that has a name..)
Greg responds...
1. No. They just glow more or less fiercely depending on his mood.
2. Generally, no. But some may have some fur or hair, just as regular gargs do.
3. I doubt it.
4. Does Bronx really look like any dog you know or does his behavior make him seem more dog-like?
5. No. They evolved without.
6. I don't recall whether or not we used that phrase. We certainly used the word "beast". In "HOUND OF ULSTER" at least.
Chapter XVIII: "The Mirror"
Story Editor: Brynne Chandler Reaves
Writer: Lydia C. Marano
Arguably the best single episode of the series. The animation is fluid, dynamic and very strong. The writing is sharp, even quite funny over and over. And yet, dramatically the story is still potent. It really advances the Goliath & Elisa romance arc. Changes Demona permanently. And introduces Puck -- and by extension, the entire third race: The Children of Oberon. All in a mere 22 minutes.
It's also very gratifying for me. A bit of a vindication. As you may have seen from the memos I wrote to Brynne & Lydia, there was some considerable resistance to the notion that none of the characters would notice their own personal change from one species to another. Most of my collaborators thought the idea was way too complicated to pull off. I argued that it might seem complex, but in fact it would play cleaner on screen -- and funnier and more directly to theme. In my mind, another title for this episode could have been -- had we already not been using it for our Werefox episode -- "Eye of the Beholder", because all the transformed characters really noticed was when someone else was "OTHER". Being a monster or being "normal" was based on their point of view, not any objective look in the mirror. [As it is, the title is the kind I like. Simple, objective and yet metaphoric. At one point, it was titled: "Mirror, Mirror". But we simplified it even more.]
But anyway, when the human Brooklyn, Lex and Broadway are confronted by "Gargoyles", the scene is an intentional mirror of the scene from AWAKENING, PART ONE where Brooklyn says, "If they think we're beasts and monsters..." Again, this is playing with the idea of "beasts and monsters" being merely in the eye of the beholder. The species have reversed, but the situation is exactly the same simply because the Trio remain in the minority. I suppose that's one thing that X-Men's mutants have in common with the Gargs. Both are a metaphor for being part of a minority. Feared almost automatically.
On the other hand, when Elisa is transformed, she believes that Goliath & Co. have been transformed into something like her. I think her immediate reaction is very telling about how she ALREADY felt about Goliath at that point. She's thrilled. She throws her arms about him. Now they're the same species. There's no impediment to their love. What's interesting is that if you stopped and asked Elisa under normal circumstances whether she would wish for Goliath to be transformed into a human, the answer would most certainly be "No." She knows that being a Gargoyle is fundamental to who he is. You can't change that without changing him -- and yet in that instant, in that unguarded moment, her desire to be with him overwhelms that rational knowledge. She's just happy.
At the museum, Elisa looks at herself in the mirror. She then moves, but the reflection holds. That was the idea of one of our board artists. A little clue that the mirror is magic. (It's not an animation error.)
Family Reactions #1
During that museum chase, my wife wanted to know why no alarms were going off. I figure Demona or the thieves just shut them off.
Erin didn't realize that that was Elisa dressed as a security guard at first. We were trying to withhold that information for a bit.
"Titania's Mirror", "The Children of Oberon", "Oberon sent me." We were laying groundwork to expand the entire series' base. But I don't know if back then I knew that much about what if anything I had planned specifically for Titania & Oberon.
Anymore than I knew then what I'd do with the "Dracula's Daughter" reference. But we try not to waste anything.
Coming up with that "Children of Oberon" name was a struggle. And so many people have asked me since whether or not Oberon is literally everyone's father, I almost regret landing on that choice. Our thought process is largely present in the episode when Goliath et al, go through various noms: Fair Folk, Dark Elves, Changelings, Shape-Shifters. Of course, at the time we were misusing the term Changeling. I think that was Odo's influence frankly, but I should have known better. I suggested "The Oberati". But the Reaves didn't care for that. I think they thought it sounded too much like an Italian sports car.
I do love the moment when Brooklyn cites Shakespeare's play as a sort of reference work on the Children. I hope we sent a few people to the library with that line. Did we?
I also love Hudson's line in response to Elisa's question: Are they real?
Hudson: "As real as I am, if the stories be true." It's full of delicious dramatic irony. If you can suspend belief on a bunch of gargoyles, then this shouldn't be a problem for you. I love things that work on multiple levels.
I also love Hudson's "Be careful what you wish for" line.
We were trying to show a bit here how Demona had managed to operate in the modern world up to this point. One of the thieves has clearly worked for Demona before without ever having laid eyes on her. Of course, showing Demona's M.O. here, was like giving it a swan song. Because after this episode, though she clearly doesn't realize it yet, her life is going to get MUCH easier. Being a human during the day is a great boon to all her scheming. I'm very curious about everyone's reaction to that? Shock? Amusement? I also tried to work very hard so that in that last two minutes of epilogue, everyone would get that she only was human during the day. I was very afraid that the audience would think she was permanently transformed into a human. Was anyone confused? Or was anyone surprised that Puck's revenge/gift STUCK? We wouldn't really explore the change until HIGH NOON. Had you forgotten about it by then?
Family Reactions #2
As Demona's casting the spell that will summon Puck. (Which I always thought was very cool, with the feather and all.)
Benny: "That's a magic mirror. Is Demona going in there?"
Erin: "Puck's gonna come out."
As I've mentioned before, during the writing of this story we figured out that Owen was Puck. So to play fair we dropped a hint here. Demona (who knows) says to Puck: "You serve the human. You can serve me." Puck changes the subject, replying "Humans [note the plural] have a sense of humor, you have none." This was done intentionally to distract the audience away from the hint we had just dropped. But obviously, in hindsight, it's a clear reference to Owen serving Xanatos. Anyone get it right off the bat? Anyone even take note of the line the first time? Originally, the line read, "You serve him, now you can serve me." With the "him" referring to Xanatos. But our S&P executive was afraid the "him" could be taken to mean Satan. I know that seems silly now. But keep in mind, we were very paranoid back then about the show being attacked for promoting devil worship. So we made the change.
Sensitive Broadway: "Maybe even love." It's a nice moment. Wistful.
Puck reminds Demona that the mirror isn't "Aladdin's lamp". At the time, the Aladdin series was still in production at Disney. So that's a bit of an in-joke.
And how about that: Demona is still carrying a torch for Goliath. On some level, she wants him more than almost anything. Yet she continually allows her hatred to get in the way. And the irony is, that at this point, pre-Vows it isn't yet too late for them. But her actions further serve to cement the Goliath/Elisa relationship. More now than ever before.
Puck/Brent Spiner is just fantastic. I love that "charming personality" line. And "You don't know what you're asking, believe me." And "I'll do EXACTLY as you asked." And "My mistake." And "A very long nap." He's just so rich.
Plus the boarding and animation on Puck is just great. As is the sound work that accompanies him zipping around.
I always wanted Puck to be the one character who could break the fourth wall and talk directly to the audience. Every time he appeared, we'd put a line or two in the script that was addressed to the audience. And every time, Frank or Dennis Woodyard would cut it out of the board. They didn't like breaking the fourth wall. (A lot of guys don't. I tried to do that with Max on Max Steel, but Richard Raynis and Jeff Kline wouldn't allow that either.) Oh, well....
Puck also establishes that Oberon's Children generally use rhyming spells instead of Latin or Hebrew or whatever. (Thus making life slightly -- but ONLY slightly -- easier on me and the writers.) But Puck isn't too formal: "Human's love a battle hearty, so does Puck, come on, let's Party!" Fun. (And I like Brooklyn's line, "Party's over." too.)
Family Reactions #3
When Elisa's transformed into a gargoyle.
Erin: "She looks cute." [I very much agree. Though I always wonder where her red jacket goes.]
Ben then asked why she was transformed.
Beth explained that Demona didn't want Elisa to be human anymore.
Erin then corrects my wife and explains that Puck is tricking Demona.
KIDS GET IT! Adults need to pay closer attention!
Goliath suddenly has lust in his heart:
G: "I never realized when you were human just how beautiful you were."
E (with a smile): "You mean you thought I was ugly?"
G: "Uh... careful! Updraft!!"
Man, that guy is smooth.
Anyway, that's one of my all-time favorite exchanges. I think it reveals so much. Somewhere underneath, Goliath has been attracted to who Elisa IS deep-down -- at least since AWAKENING, PART THREE. But he never thought of her as a potential love interest. He wasn't brought up liberally enough to think that way. After all, she has no wings, no tail. And those human shaped feet!
But suddenly, she's revealed as a FEMALE. Now, even when she goes back to being human, his perspective is permanently altered. Hers, however, is not. She's already consciously had those thoughts. Consciously rejected them. So at the end of the episode, he wants to discuss these (for him) new feelings -- but she does not. And the sun helps shut him up.
G: "That's not what I meant."
E: "But that's the way it is."
Another of my all-time favorite exchanges. (I'm really partial to things involving the G/E relationship. I know, I know, I'm a romantic sap.]
I also like the ongoing confusion. Elisa: "Everyone in Manhattan has been turned into... HUMANS!" Goliath: "No, no, no, no, no." And when the Gargoyles are changed into humans, Brooklyn is so sure that they've always been humans, it's funny. Like that moment in CITY OF STONE, when he's convinced that the "statue of Elisa" is a bad likeness of her: "They got the nose wrong."
FYI, there was an honest attempt, within the logical parameters of what our gargs looked like, to make their human versions resemble the actors who played them. Thus Goliath has darker skin than the others, because Keith David is African-American. (Though otherwise Goliath really looks like Conan to me.) The bald Lex has brown hair and the bald Broadway has blond like Thom Adcox and Bill Fagerbakke respectively. Brooklyn resembles Jeff Bennett but with Brooklyn's white hair instead of Jeff's blond. And Hudson looks like Ed Asner with a beard. More or less. Thom Adcox is the one who most looked like the human version of his character.
Cool little touches:
Demona nudges an unconscious Puck with her tail.
She continues to call Hudson, "Old Soldier". Her tenth century "name" for him.
Her line about the "gift of being a gargoyle". I love that superior attitude.
Lexington's "Fun, but weird" line.
Hudson wrapping the sheet over the mirror.
Elisa and Demona have a brief "cat-fight" as Gargoyles. Not quite as diverting as the one they'll have as humans in High Noon. But it was nice to put them on equal physical footing for a change. Let them have it out.
Demona mentions that Puck isn't too tired to make himself "invisible to the crowd". This was us trying to plug a hole in our story. We felt it would undercut the mob's reactions to our newly human heroes if they had the same reaction to seeing Puck. And yet Puck clearly looks more human than Gargoyle. More "other". So we slid that line in to avoid the whole problem.
FAMILY REACTION #4
Beth laughed at Hudson's very Scots reading of "No doubt about it." Which is pronounced more like: "No doot aboot it."
More sappy stuff (which I love):
Goliath's line: "I'll always be there to catch you."
Elisa completely forgetting her fear of flying in order to save the MAN she loves.
That brief moment when both Elisa and Goliath are humans at the same time.
Hudson's wistful line about seeing the sun, just once.
Although it had little to do with the metaphor, we couldn't really resist the notion of showing Bronx transformed into a dog. We picked the biggest dog we could think of, a Wolfhound type, though a bulldog might have been more reminiscent.
In the script, Demona smashes the mirror upon seeing her human reflection in the glass. But somehow the scene never got animated. So we added the sound of the mirror being smashed to the exterior shot at the end. This was important in order to give the story full closure. The initial point of the episode was to prevent Demona from getting Titania's Mirror. Structurally, therefore, I couldn't allow her to keep it.
But no fear, later we introduced Oberon's Mirror (clearly part of a matching set) in THE GATHERING, PART ONE.
I wonder what all those Manhattanites thought when suddenly they realized they were all barefoot.
Gencie Salter writes...
Hi Greg!
I am not sure whether this question has been asked or answered or not, and forgive me for not having the time to go through the entire archive to find it, but I have been wondering:
1. In all the flashbacks we see Bronx as the only garg beast in Castle Wyvern. If that's so then where did Boudicca come from? Is she Bronx's or were there other beasts that we just didn't see?
2. And if she is Bronx's then could he mate with her or does it really matter in garg clans if biological relatives mate? Not like they'd know or anything, but wouldn't it dilute the bloodlines? I know Cheetahs have that problem and they are quickly becoming extict. I wouldn't want gargoyles to become extinct from such a problem :-)
Thanx for your time!
Greg responds...
1. Bronx wasn't the only Garg Beast at Wyvern. Just the only one (who wasn't an egg at the time) who survived. He's not old enough to have been Boudicca's father.
2. Gargs and gargbeasts probably have a sense of smell that prevents incest.
Todd Jensen writes...
My "Deadly Force" "reply-ramble".
Your ramble on this story was good. I honestly don't remember my response to first seeing it that well, beyond some shock at Elisa's fate at the end of Act I. I agree, however, that it was very effective drama, and a great story.
(About your admission that it was a bit dishonest to have Elisa survive but that you just weren't ready to have her die yet, I can certainly agree with you about the latter particularly. Truth to tell, after analyzing the situation for the clan at the time, I'd definitely say that if Elisa had died, the gargoyles would have been in serious trouble, given that she was the only human whom they were on friendly terms with at the time. The only other humans that they knew by that point were Xanatos and the Pack, who were their enemies - and Owen (though, as it turns out in Season Two, he's a borderline case as a human), who is too loyal to Xanatos to hide them from him. With Elisa dead, they'd have had no new home such as the clock tower ready when Xanatos drove them out of the castle, and things would have gotten almost hopeless; it would certainly have made for a very short series. So I don't blame you for having Elisa survive; she had to for the series' sake).
I agree that Broadway's well-handled in that one, and certainly does not come across as a mere "garbage disposal with wings" :) (The scene of him weeping on the building, and of him yelling at the mugger in Central Park, "What's this? A new kind of gun? A new way to kill people?" are ones that I especially found memorable). Nice job of highlighting him.
Two other little notes about this ep, both which I find rather amusing. One is the way that Owen pronounces "power ranges" when he's describing the stolen particle beam accelarators to Elisa and Chavez; a bit of a dig at the competition there, eh? The other is that the last two times that I watched this episode on tape, when Cagney meowed at Elisa, my own cat sat up at attention for a moment upon hearing it. (I always rather liked Cagney; I'm quite fond of cats, in fact).
Greg responds...
My cats, as far as I know, have never taken any real notice of Cagney. Nor has my dog of Bronx.
Nyrtleka writes...
In the AskGreg Archive, you wrote: "I expect Angela, Sora, Ophelia, Boudicca, Obsidiana, and Turquesa to all lay eggs in 2008."
As I see it, Angela is Broadway's mate, Sora is (presumably) Kai's mate, Ophelia is Gabriel's mate, Obsidiana is Zafiro's mate, and Turquesa is Jade's mate. But what about Boudicca? Did she and Bronx mate? It seems logical, since (other than Fu-Dog) there are no other gargoyle beasts in the series. Is this true?
Greg responds...
Sora is Yama's mate. And Boudicca has mated and probably will again mate with Bronx.
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