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Chapter XXXVIII: "Heritage"
Time to ramble...
This chapter was written by Adam Gilad. Story Edited by Gary Sperling, and directed by Frank Paur.
FAME
As I watch each episode with my family, I've got my journal open in front of me to take notes for these rambles. During the opening credits, my five-year-old son Benny said: "I like Gargoyles." I was very pleased, of course. Then he said, "Can you write down that?" So I did. And so I have.
SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT
Back on the skiff, and Elisa still hasn't QUITE gotten the idea. She still anticipates being back in Manhattan. Like visiting Scotland was an anamoly, but now surely Avalon will send them home. (What did you all think at the time?)
And boy, that girl likes her hot dogs. Make her one with everything, you know?
A.K.A. CECIL
Our Sea Monster attacks. It's a cool design, based on research that we did. (It happens to look a lot like a pre-historic whale I saw last night on a Discovery Channel special: "Walking with Pre-Historic Beasts".)
I wish we could have found a less generic name for the creature than "Sea Monster". Thunderbird is a cool name -- particularly since I have fond memories of the L.A. T-Birds from Roller Derby telecasts of my youth -- but our research never turned up another name for the Sea Monster.
Keep in mind that though we did research, we also had time constraints. We couldn't keep researching a topic indefinitely. Eventually, we'd have to use what we had and run with it in order for the story and script to be delivered on time.
But I know Gary and Adam did quite a bit of backgrounding for this story. The Sea Monster, Thunderbird, Raven and Grandmother all came from Haida stories -- though we conflated quite a bit, I think. We did always try to be as true as possible to the history and legends we were riffing on.
HEY, WEREN'T THERE FOUR OF YOU?
As the battle with the Sea Monster came to a close, my seven-year-old daughter Erin said: "What about Elisa? Where's Elisa?"
Five seconds later, Goliath surfaces and says pretty much the same thing, before fearing her drowned by shouting "ELISAAAAA!!" (Shades of things to come -- in Hunter's Moon III.)
TOTEM POLES
Speaking of research, the origin of the whole episode was the fact that Totem Poles caught my eye as being a particularly gargoylesque deal. Then we did some preliminary research and found that they weren't carved in anything that seemed to resemble a gargoyle tradition. They were 'carved to honor animal ancestors'. So rather than stretch (or abuse) the truth, we decided to let the characters (and audience) be lured off course by the poles, just as we had been.
Fake GARGOYLES, right here in North America.
In many ways, I think it could be argued that what takes place in this episode is handled or covered in other episodes to come. We have another episode with a 'sea monster'... a more famous sea monster in a certain loch... coming up rapidly in "Monsters". Also in that ep, one of our cast is lost and feared drowned after an early attack by that monster. And much of Nick/Natsilane's dilemma is also re-covered with a more-important recurring character (Peter Maza) in our other Native American-themed episode: "Cloud Fathers". We even do more with a volcano in "Ill Met by Moonlight". On some level I suppose I regret the duplication of efforts. I don't think we usually did this sort of thing.
But I don't regret the episode. I had plans for Raven. Plans for Queen Florence Island. Plans for Nick/Natsilane. I still think the ep has some cool stuff in it. And I think we NEEDED to cover Totem Poles. It was a natural.
HAR with a V. VAR with a D.
I went to a high school in North Hollywood, CA named "Harvard High School". Named after the University. (Some people have incorrectly stated I went to Harvard for college. But I went to Stanford for Undergrad and U.S.C. to get my Masters.)
I don't remember who's idea it was to have Nick be a graduate of Harvard. Might have been mine. Harvard of course is useful as a symbol.
I like Nick/Natsilane. He's got some nice attitude here and a nice shift. Maybe not the most impressive of our so-called "International Heroes". But very likable.
I give a lot of credit to the voice actor for bringing him to life. Gregg Rainwater was brought in by our Voice Director Jamie Thomason. Gregg was terrific. We used him again in Cloud Fathers, but I've used him many times since Gargoyles. I've even written parts with Gregg in mind. He was Jake Nez in Max Steel. And I cast him as Jake MacDonald in 3x3 Eyes. He always brings incredible humanity to a part, I think. Heroic, but real.
THAT'S NOT A CROW
It's a raven. Our second Trickster makes his first appearance. Of the four (Puck, Raven, Anansi and Coyote), Raven was the guy we gave the most evil bent to.
I like all the shape-shifting he does. (Though when he flees at the end, I wanted him to flee in his bird form, not his Raven-Goyle form.) I also like how he lies by using pieces of the Truth.
Raven-Goyle: "There is an evil sorceress named Grandmother. She summoned the monster that you fought."
When he said that, did you believe him?
Of course, Grandmother does have magic power and she did, in a way, summon the Sea Monster.
IT COULD BE WORSE. I ONCE LIVED ON 28TH STREET.
While doing our research, we encountered names of Islands off the Canadian coast like Queen Charlotte Island. So I named the fictional island we'd be using "Queen Florence Island."
Growing up in Woodland Hills, California, I lived on Queen Florence Lane, a street off Queen Victoria Road. Victoria and Florence were the daughters of Michael Curtiz, the director of such films as CASABLANCA. Curtiz, at one time, owned all the property in that area, so he named the two streets after his daughters.
OR so I once was told... by a ghost named Humphrey who tried to convince me that he was Humphrey Bogart, though you could tell by looking at him that he wasn't.
WHO EXACTLY IS THE SICK ONE HERE?
Elisa is so strong so much of the time, that it's kinda sexy to see her vulnerable and feverish.
Notice that Grandmother doesn't use Fairy magic to heal Elisa. She uses Haida medicine. Thus the rule of non-interference is bent not broken.
I like when Nick comes back in and the Fever's broken. And he says just don't tell me you cured her with tree bark.
When she says, "...and roots." His expression is priceless.
SEEING RED
I like the lighting in the Volcano scene.
Goliath is so glad to learn that other clans have survived, that he doesn't notice -- in fact defends -- the inconsistencies in Raven's story.
Angela, on the other hand is suspicious. This was done, in part, to further develop her character. She's naive about certain things. Having been raised by humans, she's not inclined to judge them harshly or fear their prejudices. But she's not stupid. Something doesn't smell right and she notices.
For once, Bronx though does not. I chalk this up to the high quantity of magic being tossed around on this dying island. Grandmother is not what she seems. Neither is Raven. Bronx is confused.
Anyway, Goliath speaks to Gargoyles protecting to explain away why "Raven's Clan" can both hate humans and protect them. You get the sense that he understands all too well. Like despite everything, there's a part of him -- a prejudiced part -- that hasn't forgiven the human race for what happened at Wyvern. (Also keep in mind, he was just at Wyvern again, rehashing all those old memories.)
Of course, once Goliath learns that Raven was pulling something, he's furious at the trickster. Playing on his hopes AND his prejudices, Raven has risked G's wrath.
At the end of this scene, the three silent gargs vanish magically.
Erin said: "What happened? What just happened?"
Benny said: "How did they just vanish?"
They know I know the answer. But I resist telling them. It's a touch cruel. What did you guys think?
YOU CAN TAKE THE GIRL OUT OF THE CITY...
Elisa is such a New Yorker. Everything is compared to that. "This sure isn't Central Park."
Anyway, Raven, then a bear, then Bronx and finally Angela and Goliath find Elisa. I love Goliath and Elisa's hug. It's so unselfconscious. They were so worried about each other that they forgot the usual distance that they maintain.
SUSPICIOUS MINDS
So who did you trust? When the gargs disappeared, that had to indicate that something was up with the Raven-goyle.
So when Goliath tells Elisa that Grandmother is a sorceress, particularly given that Grandmother saved Elisa's life, we all tend to think that G's been duped. Then we spot Grandmother turning into Thunderbird. What did you all think then?
Benny noticed "her ears" and suspected her even before she turned into T-Bird.
THAT'S GOTTA HOIT
A cool moment in the battle against T-Bird is when Goliath rakes the creature with his claws.
Then Angela spots the Illusion. And plays it cool with Raven.
I like Goliath's line to Grandmother: "We live. We do not thrive."
Grandmother than establishes that Raven is a Trickster and that they are both "Children of Oberon". Thus we establish that aspect of our series.
She states that they are forbidden from directly interfering in human affairs. Reinforcing what the Weird Sisters said a few episodes before.
Raven joins the party. The jigs up, but he revels in it. He's got a few decent lines too.
I like "It's so messy."
POOR HORATIO, ALWAYS A BRIDESMAID, NEVER A BRIDE
Elisa more-or-less quotes Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Natsilane, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I've always loved that line.
Anyway, Goliath and Angela depart to fight Raven. They arrive first, but given the fact that Nick had to...
1. Have a final change of heart.
2. Change clothes.
3. Get up to the volcano without wings.
...He makes good time, don't you think?
Raven brings the totem beasts to life. This was always a bit weird. We introduce illusion gargs based on the totem beasts. But then when we bring the totem pole to actual life (or semblance) we have new designs for the woody creatures.
Does everyone see Goliath play dead for that bear?
Raven has a nice exit line here: "This place no longer amuses me."
Neither does this Ramble.
Sylvan writes...
I noticed in the archives that you mentioned Puck of Pook's Hill. Have you read it and its sequel Rewards and Fairies? If so, which do you perfer -- Kipling's take on Puck or Shakespeare's?
Greg responds...
I started reading "Puck of Pook's Hill" to my kids years ago. But at the time they were too young and it didn't hold their interest. I'm afraid I never finished it. Nor have I read the sequel.
So it's not a question of preference. Shakespeare's Puck is the only one I really know -- beyond the Garg version.
Silverbolt writes...
Hey there.
I saw an episode of Batman: the animated Series (not the future one) and saw a rather intresting episode which involved Catwoman being turned into a cat-woman and it also involved a genetically enginnered cat which looked like Talon oh and the worst thing was that the guy who did all this looked exactly Sevarius. Hmmm... i don't know when it was made but i wonder if they nicked the look of the guy from gargoyles. or perhaps everyone thinks made doctors look like red headed lab guys?
oh-well
Greg responds...
I think great minds think alike. But I think they were our way before we were. So although I don't think we copied them, they certainly didn't copy us.
Chapter XXXIV: "Avalon, Part One"
There's no memo, outline or script for this one on my computer, so we'll head right into my ramble on...
"AVALON, PART ONE"
DIRECTOR: Dennis Woodyard.
WRITER: Lydia Marano.
STORY EDITOR: Brynne Chandler Reaves.
THE RECAP
...is all over the place. So much was coming together in this three-parter. The Weird Sisters, the eggs, the Archmage, Tom, Princess Katharine, the Magus, Macbeth, Demona. This was our most ambitious story yet. Which given episodes like "The Mirror" or "Vows" and multi-parters like "Awakening" and "City of Stone" was saying something.
Of course "Avalon" was never designed to be the cohesive single story movie that "City of Stone" was. It was designed as a tryptych. Part one would bring our heroes up to date. Part two would bring our villains up to date. Part three would pit them against each other.
"Avalon I" also represented the first episode in our fourth tier. The three-parter was what we called a 'tentpole'. We knew we couldn't air it until all the Tier 3 episodes had aired. And we knew we couldn't air any other Tier 4 episodes until this three-parter had aired. Despite the fact that "The Price" aired out of order, generally our Tentpole/Tier system worked very well. Out of 66 episodes that I worked on only two: "The Price" and "Kingdom" aired out of order, hopefully with minimal damage to the continuity.
THE TITLE
The title was one of mine. But initially I wasn't sure that we were going to call the island Avalon. Now, it's mind-boggling to me, but I actually had my assistant Monique Beatty (who's now a producer in her own right) research Brigadoon to find out if that name was created only for the musical, or if it was something pulled from legends. I was thinking of Avalon, but looking for something from a Scotish tradition as opposed to British. Fortunately, Brigadoon was created for the musical. So we were 'stuck' with Avalon. Which made including King Arthur a natural.
Many series don't reveal that an episode is going to be a multi-parter until you get to the 'To Be Continued' line at the closer. "Avalon, Part One" could have just been titled "Avalon". The conventional wisdom is that people are reluctant to commit the time to a multi-parter in advance. That it is better to hook them on the story before revealing that they HAVE to come back to see the end. I always felt that was cheating. What is your reaction to seeing "Part One" attached to a title?
OPENING
Another cool shot of our gargs waking up. Always nice to reiterate that at the start of our bigger stories.
Bronx gets left behind. Of course, this often happens. It was one of the things that the World Tour would set about correcting in a BIG way. But we made his getting left behind a bit more obvious here. Usually, he just doesn't go. This time they won't take him and he's sad. We were laying pipe.
My 5-year-old son Benny asked where Hudson and the Trio were going. I had to think about it. "On Patrol, I guess."
OLD FRIENDS
Then the GUARDIAN shows up. I love his cool, Goliath-inspired armor. My 7-year-old daughter Erin immediately demanded to know who he was. I wouldn't tell her. (I'm so mean.) Did any of you guess?
Of course he immediately encounters BRENDAN & MARGOT. (What would one of our multi-parters be without him?)
Then comes the three gang-bangers from "AWAKENING, PART THREE". As usual, Keith David does the voice for one of them -- making it distinctive from both Goliath and MORGAN, who's about to come in and speak. The problem is we got a touch confused. In Awakening, Keith voices the bald white guy. Here he does the same voice, but it's assigned to the black guy. Hard to say which is wrong, except by virtue of which came first. It annoys me though.
Morgan's fun in this. I really like him. No one but Simon DelMonte will get this, and I don't know if he even reads these rambles, but Morgan kind of reminds me of Jeff Goslin, a character that Cary Bates and I created in Captain Atom.
Anyway, I like how Morgan talks Guardian down. And I like how the sword is much heavier than he thought it was going to be. His cop buddies tease him, but he maintains his sense of wonder and goodness when talking about the Guardian to Elisa.
That's kind of a cool scene. First off he describes Guardian's armor: "Real armor. King Arthur stuff." Anyone think this was a clue to what was coming in the next episode? Even with the Avalon title? Then he tells her the guy's looking for Gargoyles. Elisa of course discourages her fellow officers from taking Garg reports seriously. Everyone who's seen one must be a nut-case. These guys should form 'a club'. Then she finds out that this Guardian was asking for Goliath by name. BOOM.
BELVEDERE CASTLE
Site of our last encounter with Demona and Macbeth. Another clue.
Once Elisa got a look at the Guardian's armor, she must have thought -- yeah, there's a Goliath connection here all right.
Goliath shows with Bronx, who gets to come along and come along and come along for once. Bronx always seemed underutilized to us. We knew we couldn't bring the whole clan along. (Too many characters and no poignancy.) But Bronx was an easy addition. Of course, Bronx is also useful as a kind of living personality test. If Bronx likes you, it's a damn good sign. Bronx likes Tom. Does he remember him? What scents do you figure the Guardian carried back from Avalon. Anyway, Bronx engenders immediate trust in the Guardian for Goliath.
I love this scene. Guardian gives everyone so little time to catch up. He talks about the Archmage, reveals that he's Tom and talks about 'the eggs' being in danger. *That was a fun idea. Keep you guys thinking in terms of eggs for twenty minutes and reveal that it's just a pet name for the Avalon Clan.*
Benny asked: "What kind of Eggs?"
Erin: "Gargoyle Eggs."
Benny: "I didn't know Gargoyles hatch out of eggs." [Well, keep in mind it's been a year since he saw the first thirty episodes. And he's too young to remember the first time he saw the ones we're watching now.]
Then there's the skiff. Elisa: "Where'd that boat come from? ... To where? The other side of the lake? ... Wait for me!"
This all sounds fishy to her. Nothing makes sense. I wanted to get a clear shot in there of the pond in Central Park so that you could see objectively that it doesn't go anywhere. But I never quite managed that. I wanted you guys to be confused. Or at any rate to have a million questions. But like Elisa, no matter how suspicious, I figured you'd want to go along for the ride.
FLASHBACK
Mary, Katharine, the Magus and young Tom are all reintroduced. It's very clear that the first three have all learned their lesson from Awakening. They've all really become better people. Tom, of course, didn't need to learn that lesson. But he does learn to be a hero. He officially becomes the Guardian. It begins, I believe, as just a nice gesture on the part of the Princess. Later, of course, it'll become the truth. Then there's the long journey. I like the montage there. Hardship. We never had the time to show enough of the hardship of tenth century life.
Our gang heads into Edinburgh. Constantine's followers are all over the place. They all seem to look like Disney storyboard artists for some reason. ;)
VOICES
There's some stellar voice work in this ep. Morgan Shepard as King Kenneth II. Sheena Easton making her Garg Premiere as Finella. Ian Buchanan as Constantine. (I've already mentioned Keith's versatility.)
But as usual, real props must be handed out to Jeff Bennnett and Kath Soucie.
Jeff plays Brooklyn, the Magus and Maol Chalvim. (No Bruno or Owen or Vinnie in this ep, I'm afraid.)
Kath plays Katharine, Mary and all three Weird Sisters.
They're amazing.
SOAP OPERA
Benny saw Finella and said: "That's one of the witches."
A year ago, Tom was his favorite character. Now Tom barely registered. And he really is fascinated with the Weird Sisters. Anyway, I corrected him, but I was glad that they were appearing later.
Ian Buchanan, once of General Hospital, is playing a cad here. We have to very quickly set up a lot of politics, sexual and otherwise. This story was as historical as we could make it based on the available research, the fact that we had to fit in a few fictional characters and eggs, and screen time compression.
Believe it or not, we also had another character originally that we cut early on because it was just getting too damn complicated. Katharine and Maol Chalvim's cousin: the future King Kenneth III. The father of Bodhe. Yep. That Bodhe. The father of Gruoch.
Kenneth III winds up being made High King of Scotland after Constantine is killed. To get a sense of their relationship, at least as I see it, you might want to check out "Once upon a time there were three brothers..."
(Or to give you a hint, ten years after the events depicted here, King Kenneth III would be murdered by Maol Chalvim's operatives during a civil war. Maol Chalvim was also known as Malcolm Forranach, the Destroyer. We used the Maol Chalvim version of his name so as not to confuse him with Katharine's father Prince Malcolm. Just as in City of Stone we emphasized Malcolm Canmore's Canmore name for the same reason.)
Anyway, Maol Chalvim seems intense but right on the money here. He's even kind of heroic when he and the Magus bring Tom back to Katharine's apartment, and he begs Katharine to go. Kind of heroic. He still leaves her. We were trying very hard to balance out his minor role here with his future roll as the grandfather of and major influence on Duncan. (Of course, he's also Macbeth's grandfather, as well.)
After Katharine tells Maol to go, there's a weird cut of him just standing there smiling. We needed some kind of transition before he took off running, and I guess that was the best we could do. But it's still awkward as hell.
THE MURDER
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
We establish early on that Katharine doesn't think much of Constantine. You wouldn't know it from Awakening, but obvioulsy she's learned to be a decent judge of character.
Kenneth isn't quite so sharp. Everyone can see that he's a fool for Finella. And he doesn't recognize Constantine's threat (despite the fact that Constantine's father was a bitter enemy and) despite the fact that his son flat out tells him to beware. My thinking was that the crown had kept bouncing back and forth between different branches of the royal family. Kenneth had hoped that by taking Constantine in, instead of banishing him, he'd be able to be a positive influence on the boy. A nice idea perhaps, but maybe Kenneth was too innattentive to pull it off. And Maol probably was too covetous to really be a brother to young Con.
Anyway, Constantine tricks Finella and kills the king. We hear Finella sobbing, just to prove that she was neither in on it nor that she would approve of it. (Though one wonders what her reaction would have been down the road if Constantine hadn't spurned her in favor of Katharine. Would she have adjusted to the crime? Or did Constantine become an unredeemable villain in her eyes immediately? I hate to say it, but I tend to think it's the former. Actually, I don't hate to say it. She's more interesting to write that way.)
Erin asked: "He killed King Arthur? Why?"
That's a tough question. So first I had to explain that it was King Kenneth, not King Arthur. Then my wife Beth helped out by explaining that Constantine wanted to be king.
We come back from the act and we see that Constantine was ready for the takeover. The Banners are immediately changed in a scene clearly inspired by the Ian McKellan (spelling?) movie version of Shakespeare's Richard III. (A version I heartily recommend, by the way.)
We also continue to set up the Magus' own tragedy. He loves Katharine. Has loved her since before Awakening. That feeling is shown to deepen here when she is once again in danger. And when Constantine tries to coerce her into marrying him. (The astute Mary and Tom have to hold him back.) Here, we sense that maybe Katharine might some day return that love. That's what I wanted you all to think anyway. Did you?
Constantine takes his crown. Originally we wanted to stage this with the Stone of Destiny as we did with Macbeth. But again, I think we just had too many sets.
Michaelmas. I just like that word.
Constantine is fairly astute himself: "You have 36 very good reasons to obey." We kept reiterating the number of eggs for what was coming later.
THE ESCAPE
The Magus disguises broken pots as eggs and vice-versa. But it always seemed to me that the kitchen staff at Edinburgh sure broke a lot of pots. I mean a LOT!
I like the lines: "Taking the wee bairns for a walk?" and "I don't think I like Gargoyle eggs." Very menacing.
Princess K burns her wedding dress. She feels she cannot leave because C will follow her to "the ends of the Earth." So the Magus responds: "Then I will take you beyond them." Again. Very romantic moment between them.
Finella joins the troop. The WOMAN SCORNED. She's really fun now. Dangerous. I always laugh when Constantine drinks the brew and collapses so abruptly.
Erin: "The Weird Sisters". My kids are just fascinated with this trio. I wonder if they still will be by the end of this three-parter or if like many fans, they will be disappointed?
They get turned into owls. But the Magus worries about giving up the source of his power. K doesn't care about that.
And Finella and Mary agree to take the book. I love these two. I think they'd make a totally kick-ass team. I doubt it would be commercial enough, but I'd love to do a spin-off show just with these two women. At any rate, there was the plan to include them as recurring characters in TimeDancer.
Tom has to leave his mother and his childhood behind. Now his role as the Guardian is a way for Katharine to make him accept the loss. It is the start of their relationship, though neither knows it. I watch this now, and I can't help thinking of the Anakin & Padma relationship and where that's destined to go.
AVALON
Back to the present. We see the impressive shores of Avalon. Very cool painting.
Bronx reacts. Guardian: "He's found the eggs..." And the music swells and two gargs and a garg beast appear on the cliff.
Now is that a cliff-hanger or what? What was your reaction?
Erin and Benny wanted "to see ther rest!" I told them they'd have to wait a week and we got a lot of protesting. Just what I was hoping for.
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
"Protection" Addendum
One thing I forgot...
When Glasses first shows up at Mr. Jaffe's store, he knocks over a bunch of cans.
Later Dracon shows up, and he also knocks over the cans.
I'm reminded of the Steve Martin movie "The Jerk".
"He hates these cans! Stay away from the cans!"
Monzo writes...
All Batman (animated) questions:
1.What are your favorite episodes in "Batman: The Animated Series"?
2.a)What do think of the episodes in "The New Adventures Of Batman And Robin" compared to TAS?
2.b)What do you think of the change from Robin to Nightwing and the arrival of Robin II?
2.c)What do you think of the design (look, costume, voice cast, etc) changes in mostly all the characters compared to the 'TAS'?
3.What do you think of the episodes in "Batman Beyond" compared to the two previous series?
4.a)Have you seen any Batman animated movies "Mask of the Phantasm", "Sub-Zero", "World's Finest" and "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker"?
4.b)Any favorites among them? What's your opinion?
5.What do you think of Harley Quinn (I think she was first introduced in the Batman universe through the animated series)?
6.What do think of Mark Hamill's performance as the Joker?
Greg responds...
1. God, it's been SO long. And there were so many in those first 65, particularly after Alan Burnette took over as Producer. It was great stuff though. And I loved Mask of the Phantasm.
2a. I don't think I saw any of those.
2b. Didn't see how they handled it. Never loved it so much in the comics.
2c. See above. I didn't see them.
3. I've only seen a few Batman Beyond. And while I think it's well-made I don't quite love it. I guess the new Batman reminds me too much of Spider-Man. I like Spider-Man, but I don't really want to see Batman acting like Spider-Man.
4a. I've seen the first and the uncut version of the last.
b. I liked them both, actually. But Mask blew me away.
5. She's fun.
6. Amazing.
OH, YEAH...
I was watching Gilmore Girls the other night and I realized that I've neglected to mention a show that was a subconscious influence on Gargoyles.
I LOVE LUCY
Here was a series set in Manhattan that periodically took its main characters on trips to other 'more exotic' locations. Like Europe, Cuba, Hollywood, etc.
Just thought I should mention it.
Gipdac writes...
I've noticed a lot of simularties between Gargoyles and Gummi Bears. And you said you worked on Gummi Bears before you worked on Gargoyles right?
Okay first, during their first seasons there are six main character Gummi Bears and six main character gargoyles, each containing a trio of younger characters.
Second, each group found the seventh main character on a magic island (Angela on Avalon and Gusto on that island that is a hole in the ocean)
Third, the Great Book of Gummi reminds me of the Grimorum Arcanorum.
Fourth, the Gummi Bears met other Gummies on the British Isles (the Barbics) and in Japan (or China, the never said,) in Xiang-Wu, and made contact with Gummies in New Gumbrea (which if you follow the Gummi Scope is in South/Central America). Goliath & co. met other gargoyle clans in the British isles (London clan), Japan in Ishimura, and in South America (Mayan Clan).
So, how much did Gummi Bears inspire Gargoyles?
Greg responds...
I did a bit of kibbitzing on later seasons of Gummi Bears, but I wouldn't say I worked on it.
As I've said MANY TIMES, Gummi Bears was a MAJOR influence on the original comedy development of the show. Since much of that development survived (in one form or another) into the final product, it's no surprise that Gargoyles reveals a Gummi influence. Some of your specifics seem more coincidental than intentional, but the influence is real.
Anonymous writes...
Is Xanadu the city from the Coelridge poem?
Greg responds...
City?
Anonymous writes...
Have you ever read the works of Issac Asimov the second greatest scifi writer in the world?
Greg responds...
Without confirming or denying your pointless ranking, yes, I've read much Asimov. Including his Black Widower mysteries (which I heartily recommend) and his BIG old book on Shakespeare (which unfortunately I can only recommend with reservations).
Anonymous writes...
How similar is Coyote-X to Ultron?
Greg responds...
Not very similar at all, I think.
The one thing I 'homaged' was the whole numbering system, though we modernized the idea into computer style upgrades.
Ultron is an influence, obviously, but I think the differences between the two, both in terms of goal and style speak for themselves.
Yttrium writes...
You mentioned you were in a play called THE WARRIOR'S HUSBAND and played Theseus. Could you tell us what it was about?
---Ytt
Greg responds...
Sure. Although, keep in mind, that I was in this play over twenty years ago. So I may be misremembering stuff. I'd recommend hitting a library and reading it for yourself. It's by Julian Thompson.
But anyway... Hercules and Theseus attack the Amazons to get the girdle of Hippolyta, which Herc needs to complete his ninth labor. Homer is along to report on the action.
Hercules is very strong and carries a big club, but is neither bright nor brave in this play. Theseus is smart and cunning and good with a sword. He likes to let Herc stand up as the front man, while he makes things work behind the scenes. He's used to getting his way.
The Greeks come up against the Amazon Queen Hippolyta and her younger sister Princess Antiope. All the Amazon men are pretty wimpy. The title character is an Amazon man named Sapiens, Hippolyta's husband. He gains backbone as the play progresses.
Theseus and Antiope do battle. Antiope is very turned on to find a man who can hold his own with her. Theseus, used to just getting what he wants, is also knocked for a loop to find an equal in this woman. They fall in love. Together, they end the war. Herc gets a girdle. Not THE girdle, but everyone figures no one will notice the difference. It ends happily.
It's a bit of fluff, but I remember really liking it. Fun fluff. (It probably didn't hurt that in rehearsing the kiss between Antiope and Theseus, Elizabeth and I sort of discovered that we liked each other. As a result, we were boyfriend and girlfriend throughout my senior year of high school. So, as you can imagine, my memories of the play are rather fond.) Elizabeth also recently reminded me that David Schwimmer, now of FRIENDS, played Giganius the Herald.
FYI, Katharine Hepburn played Antiope in the original Broadway cast.
And thanks for asking this question. It makes me very nostalgic.
Anonymous writes...
Who exactly were Mab's parents?
Greg responds...
Archie and either Betty or Veronica.
Anonymous writes...
Who was the first fay to gain sentience?
Greg responds...
Fay Furillo?
matt writes...
for some reason i feel compelled to share this with you:
ok, i didn't even think about this until you mentioned the "Cairn" that Goliath and co. were imprisoned in in a recent question, but my dog, Gus, is a Cairn Terrier, and i've commonly called him a hound of ulster in my best irish accent. and i suddenly realized that that is funny not only cuz his species was named for digging into the same kind of place as "The Hound of Ulster" had its climax, but a Cairn Terrier was also Toto in "The Wizard of Oz" which was quoted twice in the episode (once by Elisa, and once by Banshee). and then at random i choose Cuchallin as my new screen icon in the Comment Room here! wow! i just thought that was an amazing string of coincidences, or are they coincidences?
why was "The Wizard of Oz" quoted twice seperatly in this one episode, even when it was never quoted anywhere else in the series? seems weird...
anyway, thats all i have to say... oh, and hey! now my dog is famous for being mentioned online to the Wizard of Ask Greg! hooray Gus (aka the hound of ulster reborn, lol)
Greg responds...
Well, I like the Wizard of Oz.
I don't really remember the specifics of how those quotes got in there, but it's likely that if one was down on paper our brains may have been in Oz mode, summoning up the other.
Todd Jensen writes...
Have you read Rudyard Kipling's two books about Puck, "Puck of Pook's Hill" and "Rewards and Fairies"? (I've read both and quite enjoyed them; oddly enough, I first read them about the same time that "The Gathering" first aired on television).
Greg responds...
I started "Puck of Pook's Hill" with my kids. They weren't too interested in it, so I'm afraid we never finished it.
I don't have the other one.
Anonymous writes...
Todd - Green also wrote one on Egyptian Mythology.
Greg responds...
Good to know. Thanks.
By the way, who are you? Could you make up some other name besides Anonymous?
Todd Jensen writes...
You've mentioned before that one of your favorite Arthurian works, and one which you've used quite a bit as a "primary source" (it clearly was at least a major influence for your handling of Percival and Blanchefleur) was Roger Lancelyn Green's "King Arthur". Have you ever read any of R. L. Green's other rehandlings of myths and legends (he wrote one on Greek mythology, "Heroes of Greece and Troy", one on Norse mythology, "Myths of the Norsemen", and one on Robin Hood)?
Greg responds...
I have FOUND a copy of Green's Greek Myth book, but haven't had the time to read it yet. Haven't found the other two you mentioned. Some day.
JEB writes...
Ever read anything by H.P. Lovecraft? If so, what do you think of his work?
Greg responds...
I have not. Though his influence is so wide spread I can't be sure I haven't been influenced by writers, etc. that were influenced by him. I more or less do know for example what 'Lovecraftian' means.
Anonymous writes...
Did you draw any inspiration for the Illuminati from Vandal Savage and his Illuminati?
Greg responds...
I'm sure all Illuminati fiction draws from similar sources.
But I don't remember Vandal Savage being connected with the Illuminati. Of course, I haven't read DC Comic Books since 1996.
Anonymous writes...
Were you trying to imitate Kirby's Gods among us theme when you were developing New Olympians?
Greg responds...
As I've mentioned before, Kirby's Eternals (and to a lesser extent his Inhumans and New Gods) were definite inspirations. We hope what we created was unique and original, but I don't deny the influence. We were going for something Kirbyesque.
Anonymous writes...
You said that Mab the mother of Oberon was connected to Chaos like many of the other first gods in mythology such as Tiamat, Ymir and Gaea who were created from chaos or were chaos incarnate and like many of these gods Mab is overthrown by a younger god who is descended from her and in our case it's Oberon. So did you have Mab be Oberon's mother not his sister or cousin just to fit the myth of older/chaotic god being overthrown by a younger god?
Greg responds...
I'm sure that held influence. (Although I'd argue against Gaea being a chaos figure. I might also argue against Ymir too.)
Also, it just seemed right.
Anonymous writes...
Were you ever influenced by the Inhumans of Marvel comics while you were making New Olympians?
Greg responds...
More the Eternals and the New Gods. But I suppose you could throw the Inhumans in there too. It was a very Kirby-inspired concept, and we made no bones about it. Bob Kline, Gargoyles' original Development Art Director and later a Producer/Director on the series' second season, came up with the original idea that developed into New Olympians. This was some time before Gargoyles. We later folded it in.
Anonymous writes...
Greg;
I have seen many episodes of TV shows that use language and action from various literary sources. They use the TV shows characters to act out the literary source (Like Romeo and Juliet with Leo DiCaprio [same words, different setting]).
1) Did you ever want to try this style with Gargoyles using Shakespear or some other author, like Kipling? I mean, not useing your own written dialogue?
2) Would this infringe on copy writes or something, if you wanted to do it?
Greg responds...
1. Yes, I did.
2. Not if it was someone in the public domain like Shakespeare.
Anonymous writes...
Did Ra's al Ghul of Batman fame influence the character of Duval/Percival?
Greg responds...
No.
SEM writes...
Greg, saw "Walkabout" recently and had a question about Dingo's ending line about Australia having a new kind of hero. Was this intended in any way as a jab to Crocodile Dundee, who had been very popular in the previous decade? Maybe it's just because CROCODILE DUNDEE IN L.A. came out in the last few months that my mind made that kind of connection... not sure. Thanks!
Greg responds...
Well, it's not like I never saw the original Crocodile Dundee movie, so I suppose anything's possible.
But honestly, no, I don't think it was any kind of Dundee reference.
Pyro X writes...
Greg you said in response to this question...
Siren writes...
The Fox/Titania controversy...
In the script for The Gathering, were the words that they spoke written out or was it just "psst psst..."?
Greg responds...
I guess if I wanted to start a bidding war on my copy of the script, I should answer, "The Former". :)
But I don't. Unless we're talking BIG money. Now what am I bid?
____________________________________________________________
I will trade you my piece of land on the Moon for the script. Truely. I really have one. They sold them at the West edmonton Mall for $25 Canadian. Wouldn't you like to see your children live on the moon?
(Insert Smart ass answer.)
Thanks.
Greg responds...
Uh...
There's a couple of really great Robert Heinlein short stories, "The Man Who Sold the Moon" and "Requiem". They're both about the same character. "Requiem" was written first, but it's about the character as an old man. "The Man Who Sold the Moon" is about the guy as a young man. "Requiem" is a beautiful story. Moreso, if you've read "...Sold the Moon" first.
This has nothing to do with your question. But I didn't have a smartass response to it, so I thought I might recommend something worthwhile instead.
LSZ writes...
You said you saw the God of the Bible as a geotheistic deity - exactly what do you mean by geotheistic? Attached to one area?
Greg responds...
One nation.
Todd Jensen writes...
Have you ever seen any of the David Macaulay animated/live-action specials about building in the ancient and medieval worlds - particularly "Castle"? They aired on PBS some years ago - for the most part, quite a while before "Gargoyles" ever came out - but when I first saw "Awakening Part One", parts of the Castle Wyvern scenes (particularly the banquet) reminded me of scenes in the "Castle" special. That recently got me wondering if you'd ever seen them (the animated sequences did, in fact, have a similar "general" feel to the medieval Scotland scenes in "Gargoyles).
Greg responds...
Nope. They don't even sound familiar.
Dexter writes...
Hello Greg-Alright, so this one is about Angela's hair. It's it just coincidence that her hair style is exactly like Princess Jasmine's from Alladin, or did you guys over a Disney just do that to be cute? I'm not trying to be an asshole (wow it's a miracle) I like her hair. Hmmm, she'd look pretty gorgeous with it down though, rrrrrrrroaw!
Greg responds...
I don't know. I assume it's a coincidence, but we were all in the same building so maybe we were influenced some. Greg Guler's original design for Demona had that sort of pony-tail. Frank didn't want that for Demona, so I had it brought back for Angela.
The ONe writes...
1) Why didn't Anansi use his magical arts against Angela, Goliath, and the others? Why did he choose to only use melee attacks instead of such powerful and simple attacks such as the weird sister's magickal bolts or Oberon's sleep spell to ensure victory?
2) Why did Anansi even need hunters? And especially mortal hunters for that matter. Couldn't he have magically created a source of his own food and why make his form a giant spider that couldn't support itself?
Greg responds...
Perhaps what you're getting at is that Anansi isn't that bright. But I think we were true to the Trickster tradition. Anansi is a bit lazy. A bit interested in using people for his amusement. It defines who he is and how he acts.
Anonymous writes...
Why does Boreas resemble Highfather?
Greg responds...
Well....
There's no doubt that Kirby strongly influenced the entire NEW OLYMPIAN concept.
Having admitted that gladly, I don't think they look that much alike. Boreas is long and lean, with strange eyes and wings. Highfather is big and bulky, with a completely different attire.
The only thing they really have in common is a white beard.
Erin Peretti writes...
I am absolutely fascinated with your comment that Gargoyle's MacBeth was more historically accurate than Shakespeare's (obviously ommitting Demona and immortality).
What parts were more accurate?
I know this is a pain, but would you happen to know where I could find some historically accurate accounts of Macbeth? His home, his full name, whether Duncan was the perfect king potrayed in the play, etc....
What research materials did you use when writing Mac for Gargoyles?
Is Glamis castle in Scotland really Mac's castle, as I have been told?
Thanks so much!!!
Greg responds...
Most of the research on Macbeth was done by Monique Beatty and Tuppence Macintyre. I did little or none myself. (I didn't have time.) Monique was my assistant (and is now a producer in her own right). Tup is a close friend and a Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney.
I know Holinshed was of some use. But I don't know what other books they used specifically.
Almost everything we did -- minus the gargs and Weird Sisters and the Mask of the Hunter -- was more accurate historically than Shaekespeare. (Not better, just more accurate.) Duncan and his father hired Gillecomgain to assassinate Mac's father. They rewarded him with Mac's title and with Gruouch. Mac eventually killed Gille and married Gruoch, adopting her boy Lulach as his own. There were some rumours that Lulach WAS his child.
Mac killed Duncan in battle, not while Duncan was a guest in his house. Mac ruled wisely for seventeen years and was overthrown by Malcolm Canmore, who was backed by the English. Etc.
I'm not 100% sure about Glamis, but I believe Macbeth's historical home was Castle Moray (also called Murray).
Aris Katsaris writes...
3. The similarities between Xanatos and Sisyphus: a Theseus/Gawain-Rory/Cuchullain situation, a descendant (Xanatos comes from Greece after all), or simply the coincidental repetition of an archetype?
(I don't think the above are story ideas, but I'll understand if Todd decides to cut them away...)
Greg responds...
I did think of Xanatos as an archetypal character -- a human trickster (as opposed to a Trickster-God like Anansi or Loki). As noted in the previous post, my lack of casual familiarity with the Sis-Myth prevented him from being a specific influence. But Odysseus was in my head. "Xavier" was designed to look like the classic hero of myth. (In contrast to the monstrous 'goyles.) When I changed the name, the Greek association brought Odysseus to mind.
Odysseus is a tricky fellow, who'll use nearly any means to justify his end. He's pragmatic but also curious. (See how he deals with the Sirens.) Immortality appeals to him. But family is ultimately more important. He's also smart as hell. Handsome, strong. A fierce warrior who uses force as a last resort. Sounds fairly Xanatosian to me. What do you think?
Aris Katsaris writes...
Next ramble - Xanatos and Gilgamesh:
As I said my first thought was Gilgamesh, since he also had the wish to find immortality - yet above all because Gilgamesh is the mythological hero whose mortality is an integral part of him: the same thing that you said about Xanatos... Both have had dealings with immortals, yet both are hopelessly mortal...
Other than that, admittedly they don't seem to have any other point of similarity... Perhaps (though a bit far-fetched) that Gilgamesh also starts like a bit of a villain until he discovers friendship. But comparisons between Enkidu and Goliath seem even more farfetched and I decided to stop that train of thought.
The Gilgamesh story is among my very favourite ones... And I love characters such as Utnapishtim (the survivor of the Great Flood - the gods turned him and his wife immortal). In fact I find Utnapishtim's version of the story far more fascinating than that of Noah or Deucalion - two stories which for me are so sketchy as to be really *dull*.
Anyway...
1. Do you have any plans about Gilgamesh or Utnapishtim which are more specific than "Eventually everything?"
2. Since Utnapishtim was turned immortal - do you think he's still around? :-)
Greg responds...
Sure Noah wound up a boring drunk. And Deucalion was a bit of a stiff. But wouldn't you like to see Utnapishtim, Noah and Deucalion all sitting at one of these new post-Flood coffee houses, having a beer together, reminiscing about old times? How singers could really sing pre-Flood and how the smell nearly killed them on those damn arcs?
1. Gilgamesh, Enkidu and Utnapishtim (as well as Noah and Deucalion) all figured into my plans. Vaguely. That is, I have a few ideas for all of these characters. But they have not as yet fully coalesced in the old (and getting older) brain. But I will say that Jeff Robbins is involved with my Gilgamesh notions. (FYI - I never really made a Gil-Xanatos connection.)
2. Duh. :)
Aris Katsaris writes...
More of a ramble (or two) than a question but here goes:
I believe that someone here in Ask Greg compared Xanatos to Prospero- both having magical assistants... Anyway I was thinking around the same lines, trying to compare Xanatos with characters from mythology:
My first thought was Gilgamesh (I'll ramble about him next) but then I thought an even better match: namely Sisyphus. And, god, this guy seems the most Xanatosian character I know (I even imagine him played by Frakes). He's *very* intelligent (him and Ulysses are pretty much the two clever men of Greek mythology); something of a trickster; he's considered to be something of a villain; and finally in certain stories he has even tried to find a way to defeat death. Two times in fact. One of them involved binding Thanatos (or Hades - not sure which) pretty similar to what the Emir did in 'Grief'...
So questions:
1. Any thoughts on the above? :-)
2. Sisyphus was punished pretty severely for what was seen as villainy (namely his trying to cheat death and angering Zeus in general)... Other than the brief (though admittedly great) scare that Oberon gave to Xanatos, do you think that Xanatos will get a comeuppance for his crimes? He's done worse than Sisyphus I think...
3. There's a third question but I'll post it serarately in case Todd thinks it a story idea...
Greg responds...
1. Interesting. I can't claim to have been thinking along those lines specifically. Though Odysseus did come to mind, more than once. I guess, I'm just not quite as familiar with Sisyphus' legends...
2. Of course the thing I remember most about Sis is the final punishment. The Sisyphusian task of pushing that boulder up the hill. Xanatos will, on occasion, continue to get his comeuppance. But I can't picture him standing for that kind of punishment -- even in Hell.
Siren writes...
I didn;t see this in the archieves and was just curious...
In Eye of the Beholder, whose idea was it to dress Elisa as Belle from Beauty and the Beast. It just seemed too perfect and at such a good time in the 1st season to do so.
Also a slightly related question...Where did Goliath learn how to ballroom dance? Demona just doesn't seem the type to have done so before 998AD ;)
Greg responds...
That was my idea, I believe.
And Goliath didn't really need to know how to "ballroom dance". He just needed to be strong enough to hold Elisa and move to the music. It wasn't a contest.
Ray Kremer writes...
All the rambles on City of Stone recently brought back some memories. While that season was airing I was in High school, and the English Class that semester was British Literature. Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, and of course Shakespere. We did the Scottish play not too long after CoS aired and when I was reading the book the voice of John Rhys-Davies always found its way into my head.
The classroom also had a big poster of the complete family tree of the royalty of the British Isles. You can imagine how much fun it was to look back to 11th century Scotland and find the names of Gillecomgain, Gruoch, and Luoch right there with MacBeth, Duncan, and Malcom Cannmore.
Then when we got to Arthurian Legend I asked the teacher what the significance of Avalon was besides being Arthur's final resting place, half expecting to hear it was the traditional home of the fairy kingdom. (Never could be too sure what was real, what you were making up, and what was some of both.)
Greg responds...
It was (in many works) the traditional home of the fairy kingdom. I wasn't making that up.
Sapphire writes...
According to legend demons are adraid of gargoyles. Is this same concept true in the gargoyles universe?
Greg responds...
Haven't met any demons. We'll have to see ;)
Anonymous writes...
Were you inspired in someway by Quantum Leap while making Timedancer?
Greg responds...
Not really. Plenty of time travel stuff pre-dates QL.
And I'm much stricter about time-travel rules than that show.
Todd Jensen writes...
I recently read not just "The King Must Die" (actually, the reading that I did for the upcoming GBC discussion was a rereading, since I'd originally read it some months before) but also "The Bull From the Sea" (I decided that I'd like to read the rest of Renault's take on Theseus). And I can certainly agree with you that both books are a very effective take on the Theseus story.
One bit that stood out to me was the impact that Hippolyta's death makes on Theseus. Renault, like you yourself, interpreted Theseus and Hippolyta's union as one of equals and one of the peaks in his life. So her death in battle is indeed devastating for him from just that alone. But the additional touch that Renault added on made the impact of Hippolyta's death all the more chilling, and fitted in all the better with Theseus's decline afterwards. For Renault makes it clear that Theseus is meant to make the "Kingly Sacrifice" (the leading thematic element of the two books) in the battle with the Amazons - but instead, he lives and Hippolyta is the "King" who dies willingly. The King has died, but the wrong king - and the impression that I received is that Theseus's not making the "Kingly Sacrifice" of himself in the battle is what sets his doom in motion thereafter, the fact that he has, in a sense, failed his duty.
The other element that particularly stood out to me - and again, struck me as having an effectively chilling touch to it - was the manner of Hippolytus's death, with Theseus for once abusing his gift from Poseidon to predict earthquakes and turning his prediction into a curse - leading to his permanent loss of the ability thereafter.
At any rate, I'm glad that you mentioned and recommended it to the folks here; I certainly was glad to read both books.
Greg responds...
Todd, as usual we are very in sync. I was also very effected by those moments.
(My one caveat is that I feel strongly that Hippolyta was the traditional name of the Amazonian "king". Almost more of a title than a name. And that her true name was Antiope.)
I'm glad you liked the books. (Is anyone else reading them?)
Jim R. writes...
In one the first series episodes, (i forgot the name), where Xanatos donated the eye of Oden and then had it stolen again for himself, there in the museum scene there was night watchman who was walking down a corridor, and he stopped to look at a painting. He said "Yeh, you and me both, pal." Was that painting any famous one in particular? I almost thought it looked like Edward Munch's "Scream" but then I thought why would the night watchmen associate what he was feeling with "Scream"(not the movie)?
Greg responds...
Scream the movie wasn't out yet when we made that. It had no influence on us. And in any case, I've never seen it.
That was supposed to be Edvard Munch's painting though.
Todd Jensen writes...
A couple of "Future Tense" questions:
1. What inspired you to do the "Future Tense" story (aside from the fact that it provided an effective motivation for Goliath to get rid of the Phoenix Gate)?
2. Were there any particular "dystopia/bleak future" stories that had a noticeable influence upon this episode? If so, which ones? (Well, actually, I noted that you mentioned an "X-Men" story about Sentinels in the future as one of the influences).
Greg responds...
1. Lots of things. Mostly, we thought it was a VERY powerful story.
2. That X-Men story is the main one that comes to mind. But I'm sure there were others, at least subconsciously.
Laura 'ad_astra' Ackerman writes...
I've been meaning to post this for a while.. well a month or so-
On Friday, November 17, 2000 05:54:50 PM Revel writes...
"Regarding your "Vows" ramble
I think More's the pitty is kind of like Ignorance is bliss. You've just heard it so many times no one knows who originally said it. (my opinion of course) "
- I don't have my worn out favorit poetry collection with me, (where did I put that this I have been desperately searching for it for a year now …!) But I believe your example comes from a Thomas Gray poem entitled either, "Elegy in a Churchyard" or "Ode Upon Distant Prospects at Eton (or was that Oxford? Or Canbridge)" I might be mangeling any part of it. It is the last line of the poem, "In a place where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
Revenge of the English major:)
Greg responds...
O.K. Not definitive, since you don't have the book in front of you, but it sounds right.
Todd Jensen writes...
This is a related comment to the Mystic shop in London question that I asked a bit ago (perhaps assisted by the fact that I was watching a PBS documentary on Napoleon earlier today). Napoleon once made a famous dismissal of the English as a "nation of shopkeepers" (presumably before those same "shopkeepers" defeated his fleet at Trafalgar and his army at Waterloo). In light of this remark of his, I find it rather amusing that the gargoyles in England are shopkeepers as well as the humans. I don't know if that quote of his ever came to anybody's thought when you were working on "M.I.A.", but I thought that you might be interested.
Greg responds...
It did actually.
Aris Katsaris writes...
You said: <<O.K. Thanks. So death was NEVER personified?
Certainly Uranos was personified in the mythology, right? And Eros, of course. >>
Umm, I'm not certain what exactly it is you mean by "personification", so let me be a bit more elaborate.
Pretty much *everything* was personified as a deity, including abstractions like "Victory"-Nike, "Peace"-Eirene, "Justice"-Dike, "Violence"-Bia, "Night"-Nyx, "Sleep"-Hypnos, etc. The name is the concept is the deity...
However most of these deities never seemed to have a solid existence in stories besides their very function - unlike gods and goddesses like Athena, Hades, Hermes, Thetis, Callisto, etc, who very clearly were "persons" with a history and personalities that was separate from their specific roles...
Uranus was ofcourse personified - he was a person who was defeated and castrated by Cronos, etc, etc. And in fact he was probably personified so much that the meaning of his name being "sky" was probably almost forgotten, and Zeus was considered the god whose province was the sky, etc.
Eros is a weird case: The story which "personified" him as the son of Aphrodite and the lover of Psyche, was written very late, 2nd century AD I think, by a Roman writer. In that one he was obviously a seperate person, "personified" with any definition one can come up with.
But before that, Eros seems to have been much more of an abstraction, one of the very first gods who was birthed by Chaos: For if there had been no Eros (no love) later gods (like Gaia and Uranus, or Cronos and Rhea, or Zeus and Hera) could not have loved each other. More of a force, less of a person.
Now Death-"Thanatos" was ofcourse personified like anything else: he's supposed to be the son of Night, and the older brother of Sleep (Hypnos). But besides that, he seems to me to be much more of an abstraction like Nike, and less of a person like Athena. He's referred to as a person occasionally (Zeus sends Hypnos and Thanatos to carry the body of Sarpedon with honour away from Troy, I think that Hercules is supposed to have wrestled with Thanatos in one case) but those two are pretty much the only occasions I remember him be a person...
I don't know if the above helped clarify or confuse...
Greg responds...
It helped clarify where you were coming from, but I think even the brief mentions you give legitimize the way I characterized Thanatos. The God of Death. He doesn't have a lot of stories attached to him. But that's still the idea.
Live you said, "The name is the concept is the deity."
(And I knew about the two versions of Eros.)
LSZ writes...
This is a weird question, but were there any plans to use more recent fictional works in the Gargoyles universe, particularly:
1) HG Wells
2) Jules Verne
3) C.S Lewis
4) H.P Lovecraft
Greg responds...
I could easily be influenced by the first two.
But I've read almost nothing by the last two. I'm aware of their work, and some of it has seeped into pop culture to the extent that I might be indirectly influenced by them.
But I had no specific plans to hit the nail on the head of any of these four authors.
Anonymous writes...
there seemed to be many similarities between the star wars universe and the gargoyles universe is this coincidence?
Greg responds...
I'm not aware of too many overt similarities. Other than a few intentional in-jokes.
I'm sure by virtue of the fact that we're both trying to tell highly archetypal stories that there will be some overlap.
That doesn't make it a coincidence, exactly. But it's definitely not intentional.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Regarding Xanatos's name you said: <<First it's a slight change on Thanatos, the Greek god of death.>>
A small tidbit: "Thanatos" is not just the ancient Greek god of death, it's the Greek *word* for death (in both ancient and modern Greek).
It means death the same way that in Greek "Uranus" means sky and "Oceanus" means ocean and "Eros" means love (both romantic and physical), etc...
Greg responds...
O.K. Thanks. So death was NEVER personified?
Certainly Uranos was personified in the mythology, right? And Eros, of course.
Aris Katsaris writes...
A more normal but somewhat silly question (the answer is almost certainly "no"):
Have you ever read Don Rosa's "Return to Xanadu"? I'm not entirely certain but I think that was one of the first mentions of Xanadu that I ever saw - and which lead me to read Coleridge's poem.
Greg responds...
No.
My earliest Xanadu references are from Coleridge and CITIZEN KANE.
Then there's that Olivia Newton-John / Gene Kelly movie.
RPG [rpg7@poczta.fm] writes...
Hi!
I'd like to ask You for a Carl Johnson, editor of the such wonderful music sound track to the Gargoyles. Yes, I know there's nothing like a original motion picture soundtrack from the series (however, I know about a fan-made one), but what I want to know if something about this guy, especially what other movies he illustrated with music (I've asked many people, on cr too, but nobody know really nothing).
Another question: how You probably know, there was a TV horror movie Gargoyles (which I haven't seen, btw). I'm curious if You saw this movie and if it inspired You even a little.
Sorry for my english (I'm a polish fan), and thank You in advance for answering my questions and doing it for fans - You are great! ^_^
[Btw: I noticed there was a question about a possibility of releasing a Gargoyles role-playing game. If You are interested to see a fan-made amatour rp conversions of series, I've got some (there's much more of this stuff on the web) of them at following adress ftp://vortex.efekt.pl/people/gargoyle%5E/gargoyle_gamez/]
Greg responds...
Carl wasn't the music editor. He was the composer. He's a nice guy, but I don't have access to his bio. He will, however, be a guest at the 2001 Gathering in Los Angeles. I suggest you attend. (I know Poland's a long ways away, but L.A. is a great city to vacation to. And we've had fans come from Europe and even Japan and Israel before.)
If we're talking about the Cornell Wilde/Bernie Casey tv movie, than yes, I saw it. But I don't think I got any inspiration from it, since I saw it AFTER we had developed the series.
LSZ writes...
1) Did you ever see either the movie or the original stage version of the musical Camelot(there's a lot of difference between the two)?
2) If so, what did you think about it?
Greg responds...
Both. Loved the musical the first time I saw it. Other productions I've seen have been more mixed. The movie is a bit mixed for me as well. But I basically think it's a great show.
LSZ writes...
I recently got the original book version of 'Magic'; it's just as good as the movie. Have you ever read it?
Greg responds...
No.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Todd> Such scenarios have their root in reality - whereever a minority is oppressed by a majority, you'll get the individuals who'll fight back hatefully and the individuals who'll want to live in harmony.
In my opinion it's *extremely* silly to think that Gargoyles could be copying the X-men when both were obviously copying the real world...
Now X-Men and the *New Olympians*... well that's a whole other story. :-)
Greg responds...
New Olympians is influenced by Jack Kirby's Eternals or New Gods much more than X-Men.
But I think you're missing Todd's point. I don't think we were ever really a Batman rip-off any more than we were an X-Men rip-off. His question was about our concerns. And we were concerned that we'd be PERCEIVED as a Batman rip-off. We weren't concerned about being PERCEIVED as an X-Men rip-off. But frankly, I can't remember why. Because one concern is just as legitimate (or illegitimate) as the other.
Duncan Devlin writes...
Hi Greg. I was a little curious about Robbins' line about books at the end of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time".
Who came up with. it.
Were there any specific influences (assuming it didn't come from a source I don't know).
Are there any other drafts of the quote available (if yes, could you post something?)
Greg responds...
It was written by Lydia Marano and/or Brynne Chandler.
It was inspired by a similar quote by Barbara Tuchman, but I don't have the original handy.
Amberie writes...
Greetings. I was just wondering if you've ever considered including fairy tale (Snow White, Cinderella, etc)elements into the Gargoyles Universe, especially since you've included mythology and aliens. Thanks!
Greg responds...
Yep.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Greg, what do you think about the place that the "May Day's Decree" has in the Gargoyle Universe? (the murder of a great number of infants so as to destroy Mordred)
I always felt that unlike most other parts of the Arthurian legend (which didn't have so obvious sources) , the "May Day Decree" seemed a complete copycat of Herod's massacre with a bit of Perseus thrown in. As such I felt it was perhaps the part which rung by far the most untrue...
Anyway, others in the comment room have disagreed ofcourse. Do you think it happened in the Gargoyles universe or not?
(And I really hope for something more clear than "All things are true" :-)
Greg responds...
You're forgetting Moses, which I think is a much more direct parallel.
puck40 writes...
Hey Greg
Comment about Terry Pratchet. :)
Just find any one of those Discworld books and read the first couple pages. If your not hooked into it by the first or second page... well like thats possible. hee hee
ja!
Greg responds...
see my comments to Aris.
I realize I'm cutting myself off from some good stuff, but I don't have a shortage of books to read EVER.
I just read William Faulkner's New Orleans Sketches. It was a great early example of his work.
LSZ writes...
Aaargh..I lose Internet access for a while, and return to find that due to my poorly phrased questions that I was looking forward to finding out the answers of, I have totally messed up the question..oh well.
I'll try a more careful rephrase now..but first, some new questions.
Are or were there any plans to incorporate the legend of Faust into the Gargoyles Universe?
Greg responds...
Yes.
Derek! writes...
Greg-
I think the book club thing over in the comment room is a great idea. But I just finished Postman and already owned Rime,(and it's not even October yet!) so I was wondering if, off the record, you could recommend a few more books. I'm working at a Borders bookstore now and am itching to use my book discount.But, if you want me to just be patient and wait with everyone else, I'll understand, of course. Thanks for your time:)
Greg responds...
Well, I'd suggest looking at the list that Todd gave of books I've already said I read and influenced Gargoyles. (You might also check out the ASK GREG "Influences" archives for other suggestions.) But I don't know what I'm gonna pick for December yet, so I can't tell you exactly what I'm gonna choose.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Quick! We must fill the queue - Greg's caught up! :-)
Anyway, just a nitpick: You said "Odysseus traveled for twenty years."
Well, he was away from home for twenty years. But ten of these years he had been fighting at Troy. His return took him a further ten years, seven of which he spent as a virtual prisoner in Callisto's island.
So, one could say that he spent only *three* years travelling, though it was twenty years that he spent away from home.
If one's nitpicking, anyway. :-)
Greg responds...
That's what I meant.
I actually DID know that.
And Brooklyn may stay in one place, fighting or whatever for various lengths of time in various periods of time. But when all is said and done, he'll be twenty years older when he gets back.
Punchinello writes...
Hello Mr. Weisman.
It has been a while since I have stopped by here. I've been extremely busy.
I reviewed your most recent responses to your fans, and I took special notice of a response you gave to Aris regarding the weird sisters.
You commented that one was older and one was younger, but not always the same one. (Or words to thqat effect.) That made me curious.
I am not really familiar with the mythology surrounding the sisters. I know that the imagery and concept of the "three women" can be observed in a number of disparate cultures and stories. I never actually took the time to investigate their history , however. I knew that Shakespeare's works played a prominent role, so I just assumed you were importing them from there. I kind of took it for granted.
Anyway, I was interested in your comment because it reminded me of an incarnation of "the three women" that I knew of. Lloyd Alexander's Orwen, Orduu and Orgotch. I specifically remember one of them being upset because they "always had to be Orgotch!" They were bitter because the other two seemed to always appropriate the other two identities. Alexander's Weird sisters were the only ones I had ever observed to display this interchangeable identity. I know that Alexander's sisters were Welsh in origin. His books were inspired by the mythology of that culture. I dont know if the interchangeable identities were also of the same origin, or purely a creation of the author.
I was wondering if your weird sisters were inspired by Alexander's in any capacity, or if the concept behind their identities has other origins.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer.
Mr. Pun, Mr. Chin, Mr. Nel and Mr. Lo
Greg responds...
I've never read Alexander. (Is the BLACK CAULDRON based on one of his books? I did see that.)
Todd Jensen writes...
Just read your "Gargoyle pitch" that you posted a few minutes ago. It's definitely interesting to see the familiar story increasingly taking shape (with some differences still here and there, such as Goliath being an artificial creation or the "Elisa-equivalent" being still considered as descended from the "Princess Katharine-equivalent").
I was also intrigued to note that even this early in the development, you'd visualized Goliath fighting the Germans in the air in World War II, the first hint (perhaps) of "M.I.A."
Greg responds...
Yeah, M.I.A. was actually a VERY early idea. My dad is a MAJOR Spitfire buff, (which is how I wound up meeting Douglas Bader as a child). So images of the Battle of Britain have always filled a special place in my imagination. And the thought of Goliath mucking it up on the side of the RAF was such a potent image, it survived until we found a way to bring it to pass.
puck<40> writes...
Greg responds...
I once read a Star Wars novel right after the original movie came out. It stank. Kinda turned me off that whole thing.
But you never know.
;-; you read Splinter of the Minds eye? huff. See when I read this trilogy of books it turned me *onto* the other books. Timothy Zahn is really a great writer. And turned me on so much so that I read through so many of the bad ones... including "splinter" <which was released shortly after the movie, pure crap>. Occasionally I try to make my way through another one here and there..... But everything pales. PALES!!!!!! ~taunts all the star wars fans who disagree~ sheep!!!! can't any of these so called hardcore fans see that a BIG MACHINE OF DEATH is kinda boring? book after book.... ;-; so depressing. But This trilogy.... MWAHAHAHH. 9.9; sorry
erhm, heheh. ^.^ anyways.... ~wavies the books in front of Greg~ If I managed to send these.... or not even these. Just the first one to Jen, would you consider reading it? "Heir to the Empire". Made the best seeeelllleeeerrrssss list. =) Hit number oooooonnnneeee. read the reviews online of it if my sales pitch didn't sell it.
and forget about the rest of the books. <a couple short stories are superb here and there but mostly they're blah>
running off now, spanish homework to do.
Greg responds...
You don't have to send me books. (Thanks for the offer.) The truth is, I'm not interested in reading Star Wars-anything right now. That world isn't firing my imagination. The next book I plan on reading is William Faulkner's "New Orleans Sketches." Plan on starting it on the plane ride down to New Orleans. Right now that's just where I want to go.
But if I ever get nostalgic for Star Wars, I know which books to pick up. Thanks.
Vashkoda writes...
1a) You said that Brooklyn would travel to the "Future Tense/2158/?" era both before and after he met Katana. From the perspective of those living during this future period, did Brooklyn's first visit (when he was alone) happen *after* he had already appeared with his family? b) If so, did the people during that time reveal (perhaps accidentally) to Brooklyn that he was going to have a family?
2) You said that Brooklyn keeps "chasing" after the Gate because he wants to get home. Although I'd understand why this would be important to him when he's alone and memories of home are still fresh on his mind, I would think that after 40 years and having the comfort of his family, getting home wouldn't be as critical to him. Am I wrong, or does Brooklyn find a new reason to be motivated to return home to the present?
Greg responds...
1. I'm not answering that now.
2. Odysseus traveled for twenty years. Brooklyn for 40. (But he was only awake for 20.) Sometimes we reason not the need.
Wing writes...
Knowing you are an English type teacher (as opposed to Science and what not), is it safe to assume you are familiar with the concept of the HERO'S JOURNEY? (a journey of self-discovery?)
It can be said that Titania went on the HERO'S JOURNEY. She took a trip and came back all the better (simplified). Too, it can be said, that Oberon ordered all fae to complete a HERO'S JOURNEY of sorts. (Loving the capital thing by the way) Oberon himself I belive went briefly on a journey, but only kinda (assumed from previous answers).
My q is, will Oberon ever go on a HERO'S JOURNEY and have a coming of age? Has this already happened, more subtly? Will his character continue to develope?
Greg responds...
I like to think all of my characters continue to develop. (And yes, I'm familiar with the Hero's Journey concept.)
Emmlei writes...
You were a big comics fan until recently, right? so, i got to ask, did you read Archies?
Greg responds...
I've read Archies. But I was never a big Archie reader.
Todd Jensen writes...
In one of your recent answers to "Shadows of the Past" questions, you called the enormous megalith that Hakon and the Captain of the Guard were using to drain Goliath "the Megalith Dance". Was this name for it (particularly the "Dance" part) inspired or influenced by Geoffrey of Monmouth's name for Stonehenge, the "Giants' Dance"?
Greg responds...
I wasn't naming it so much as I was describing it.
I've read Geoffrey, so again, that might be where I got the reference. Though I've heard stone circles referred to as a "dance" on many occasions, in many works. But maybe we all got it directly of indirectly from Geoffrey.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Mary Mack <<They specialize in the older versions of legends, so I didn't even realize (should've, because you mentioned that Ancient Greek was closer to Modern Greek than Middle English is to Modern English) that somebody else might know the word in a different context.>>
A small correction - I said that Modern Greek is closer to Ancient Greek than Modern English is to *Celtic*.
I'm not so sure about the analogous place of Middle-English... Perhaps it's similar to Ancient Greek - most of it would be unintelligible, but people would recognize clear connections between words and could perhaps slowly decipher the meaning of a written text?
Greg responds...
Uh, yeah. I've read Chaucer in Middle-English. It's tough, slow going, though fun.
Aris Katsaris writes...
And since Todd referred to it, I may as well... was "By the dragon!" an Excalibur (the movie) reference, as I had thought it to be?
Greg responds...
If so it was unconscious. (I've seen the movie many times, but that wasn't what I had in mind at the time.) Good movie though.
Todd Jensen writes...
This is another thing that I've meant to post here from time to time, and your recent mention that you've read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings encouraged me to do so at last.
I've sometimes thought that the Eye of Odin has a certain similarity to the One Ring at times (although I think that it's probably coincidental). Both the Eye and the Ring altered the person who used them, and with a sinister undercurrent to it so that practically anybody who used either would become corrupted, and almost used by the magical object in the process rather than using it. But the Eye of Odin in "Eye of the Storm" especially there reminded me of the Ring. Odin comes seeking the Eye because he lost much of his native power when he parted with it, just as Sauron was seeking the Ring because much of his power passed into it when he made it, diminishing him. And Goliath, when he donned the Eye to use against Odin, became subtly corrupted by it until he wound up, while ostensibly fighting Odin to keep his companions safe from him, really doing so to dispose of the competition over the Eye's ownership. This reminds me of how in "The Lord of the Rings", Gandalf pointed out that they couldn't use the Ring to defeat Sauron since it would do the same thing to its user and turn him into a new Sauron. (Indeed, I can't help but feel that if Gandalf *had* claimed the Ring as a weapon against Sauron, his corruption by it would have been much like Goliath's corruption by the Eye in that episode).
Of course, "Eye of the Storm" didn't feel like a Tolkien copycat, since its concerns were more those of the Gargoyles Universe (and in particular, the correct way of solving the problem with the Eye turned out to be to give it back to Odin - a definite difference from the case of the Ring and Sauron), but I did feel that there was a certain similarity there. I just thought that you might be interested to read this.
Greg responds...
Tolkien, which I read when I was about fourteen years old, may easily have been a subconscious influence on the Eye of Odin. Although there are many other similar stories in myth and legend that may have possibly influenced me (and Tolkien too for that matter).
Todd Jensen writes...
One last post.
You revealed in your last batch of answers that Gabriel is the leader of the Avalon clan. I will confess that this revelation amuses me a bit because of a slight echo here with "Paradise Lost" (which might be coincidental, of course, but which I'll mention anyway).
In Milton's epic poem, the original Gabriel (the Archangel) is portrayed as the leader of a squadron of angels stationed in the Garden of Eden to guard it (and who clashes briefly with Satan at the end of Book Four). Both the Garden of Eden and Avalon are earthly paradises; both are also associated with apples (although the general consensus of biblical scholars is that the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden wasn't an apple after all). And now both have as the leaders of their guardians a figure named Gabriel. I must confess that I rather like this touch, even if you didn't have Milton in mind when you came up with it.
Greg responds...
Been getting a lot of these recently...
Again, I've read Milton. So maybe it was back there in my head, but I'd be fibbing if I said I was conscious of it. Still it's cool. More evidence of a real Garg Universe out there? ;)
Aris Katsaris writes...
Tana> Well JRR Tolkien didn't exactly say that what he was writing was fact. More that (like Greg) he seemed to not be inventing, but rather delving into a subcreation - a universe that had some reality of its own, so that instead of inventing he just had to wait until he could see what had 'really' happened...
Greg responds...
Uh, yeah...
Sorta.
Tljack2001@aol.com writes...
I'm doing a report in class and I'm having a hard time I'm compering your cartoon "Gargoyles" to Edith Hamilton"s book Mythology could you tell me how you originated the characters in comparison to characters in Mythology, and why you changed the way Gargoyles live compared to Gorgons you know blah blah blah. It's a comparison and contrast report and i'm having a very hard time with it I know I'm on to something please help! Compare and contrast how you used stuff from "mythology" I have to have a source from you and this is all i found please help!! Plus I'm a girl so I have to do well on this because everyone says I don't know what I'm talking about and this is a "boy's" cartoon. Thankyou sooo much
Greg responds...
There was never any particular connection in my mind between Gargoyles and Gorgons. Sorry. I did have a Medusa character in mind for New Olympians. She was largely supplanted by Sphinx. But I was going to use Medusa in a different way if we had done that spin-off.
Gargoyles isn't a boy's cartoon. It's for anyone who likes it, obviously. Don't let anyone tell you different.
But I'm not sure how I can help you. I'm not going to sit here and either (a) write your paper for you or (b) write a paper of my own for you to cite.
In a nutshell, we looked for ways we could adapt mythology that intrigued us into the universe that we had created. We looked for ways to unify and simplify a diverse global mythology, without over-simplifying the characters of that mythology itself. We tried to be respectful and faithful to the ideas the characters and stories suggested to us. But we also tried to make it fit into a dramatic episodic context.
Does that help? It's quotable, I think.
Let me know how it turned out. Post it here when you're done.
Matthew Smith writes...
hey Greg, what's up? Well, this isn't really a Gargoyle related question, it's more about one of the movies you mention being one of your favorites: Ghostbusters. That is one of my all time favorite movies. I see you didn't seem to like the sequel. I rather enjoyed GB2, heck I bought both movies last weekend, but I guess i can see why you didn't like it. I mean walking Statue of Liberty, "Mood Slime" that responded to good/bad vibes...ect...
My passion for Ghostbusters goes back to my when I was 5. Oh I remember religiously watching "The Real Ghostbusters" every day before kindergarten. Me and my brother used to dress up in old pyjammas, which our mother altered to have the Ghostbuster logo on the shoulders, and would run around the neighbourhood pretending to "bust" ghosts.
Anyway, back to the movie. My mother must have hated that movie with a passion, simply because it was the only thing we'd rent whenever we'd go to our grand-parents house (who had a VCR when we didn't) must have seen the movie like 60 times back then, and that was before I could appreaciate the witty humor, let alone understand the plot.
Last year, I watched the movie for the first time in about 10 years. I never realized excactly how clever of a movie it was. It was hillarious, yet not off the wall not to be taken seriously. Even the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man provided a serious enough threat.
Come to think of it, this actually is a Gargoyles question. Gozer's Terror Dogs, the one's who possessed Dana and Louis reminded me an awful lot of Bronx. Did this in anyway inspire you to create the Gargoyle Beasts? Also, the Terror Dogs came to life by breaking out out of it's stone shell, much like the way Gargoyles do. Is this simply a coincidence? I remember you stating that your inspirations for Gargoyles were Gummi Bears, actual stone gargoyles, Hill Street Blues. But is it possible that Ghostbusters is among one of the inspirations for Gargoyles? Or am I just making wild speculations in hoping that one of my favorite movies helped inspire one of my favorite animated shows?
Greg responds...
The terror dogs might have influenced Frank Paur, who redesigned Bronx to the shape we currently know and love. But I wouldn't want to speak for Frank. You'd have to ask him.
But I did like the movie a lot.
Todd Jensen writes...
This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.
Greg responds...
Yeah. Angela/Miranda. That's there. But I won't pretend I was conscious of it. But like with Thailog/Edmund, the play is such an intrinsic part of my consciousness and education, I'm sure I was influenced by it.
Ambrosia writes...
Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...
Greg responds...
If that's the accurate Coleridge quotation, and it sounds like it is, than it certainly works. We suspend our disbelief, that is we put our dibelief on hold.
The reason, I'm guessing, why the quote is often misquoted the other way is because "suspend" has other denotations as well. We could "suspend our belief", that is hold it up over the not-so-believable parts. Keep our belief aloft.
So either "work". But since we're all paraphrasing Coleridge, something I didn't realize until you told me, it's nice to get it right.
Todd Jensen writes...
Just thought that I might tell you that I was very amused (LOL), in fact, by your answer to the question about whether pigs can fly in the Gargoyles Universe ("I've got the bacon, do you have the catapult?") - particularly since I'd never imagined firing pigs from a catapult as a means of accomplishing that feat.
Greg responds...
Then you don't watch enough Monty Python.
Samantha writes...
Hi
I releize you get a ton of these questions each day so thanks for taking the time to read mine, I was just curious what inspired the idea for the show Gargoyles in the first place? What was the inspirtaion for the show? Thanks alot.
Greg responds...
Among the inspirations:
Actual Stone Gargoyles
Gummi Bears
Hill Street Blues
Shakespeare
Aris Katsaris writes...
How many Tolkien books have you read? The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings? Have you read The Silmarillion?
Greg responds...
I've read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. I started The Silmarillion many times, and could never quite get through it.
Todd Jensen writes...
Oh, and I've read "The Book of Merlyn" myself, and agree with you that the scene with Arthur and the hedgehog looking over the sleeping Britain was a very good one.
Greg responds...
Oh, I love that scene. It slays me. Wonderful writing.
Scott Iskow writes...
Concerning Clan London:
1. Would a child of Leo and Una possess characteristics of both a lion and a unicorn?
2. If so, does that mean that Leo's parents were both lion-feature gargoyles and Una's unicorn-feature? I ask this because they don't seem to have too many features of other animals.
3. What are some other creatures, (besides lion, unicorn, and griffin), that Clan London resembles?
4. Slightly related to the first question. Writing it out made me remember that "lion and the unicorn" quote from an episode of "Batman" with Kate Mulgrew (and, no doubt, also from some literary source I've yet to discover; I won't bother you by asking what the source is since I can just ask the comment room). Is it just a coincidence that Leo and Una seem connected to the quote? (I kind of doubt it... the show's full of clever little things like that.)
Thanks, Greg!
Greg responds...
1. Potentially. Or one or the other. Or latent stuff from an ancestor.
2. Not necessarily.
3. Those are the big three.
4. Probably less a coincidence then common influences. I think maybe the quote you're referring to is from one of the two Alice books. The notion that Lewis Carroll was influenced by the heraldic symbols that surrounded him in Oxford (where he lived and worked) was also an influence on me when I studied there. (Of course, I could be wrong.)
Todd Jensen writes...
A little something that I thought I'd mention, because you might find it interesting. I saw a PBS documentary on gargoyles once, a few years ago, which, when it got to the gargoyles atop Notre Dame Cathedral, mentioned that local legend in Paris had it that they would come alive at night and go flying about the city.
I don't know if you were aware of this legend or not (your past comments on gargoyles being stone by day and flesh and blood by night in the series would imply that you weren't), but I thought that you might like to know that the notion has shown up in actual legends about real-world gargoyles. (Maybe it was the "tapping in" thing again, much like what you said when Aris mentioned that the actual Irish legends about Cuchulain indeed give him a love-hate relationship with a female faerie).
Greg responds...
Could be...
But it's cool.
Todd Jensen writes...
This is a sort of rambling about gargoyles in general which I finally remembered to submit.
One thing that I have to hand to "Gargoyles" is that it really did change the way I viewed gargoyles. Before the series came out and I started watching it, I'd always taken it for granted, whenever I thought of "living gargoyles" in a fantasy context, to imagine them as the "bad guys", given that almost every fantasy book, game, television program, or what-not out there portrayed living gargoyles as evil. (Particularly fantasy role-playing games). I wasn't even aware of gargoyles being placed on medieval cathedrals and castles to protect them from evil.
Then I watched the series, and was actually presented with the notion of "gargoyles as 'good guys'". I became interested enough in real-world gargoyles, as a result of the series, to read up on them and discover that indeed, their original function was as protectors. And since then, I've found my own attitude towards gargoyles to be more positive - in particular, I like looking out for architectural gargoyles wherever I can. (I've actually come across metal ones as a part of old-fashioned street lamps in my neighborhood). It's become almost hard for me to realize that I used to see gargoyles as I did before the series came out. (At the same time, though, those memories of how I used to view gargoyles make it all the more understandable for me why so many humans in the Gargoyles Universe would hate and fear gargoyles - which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement on the series' part of the modern-day angle on gargoyles, although the gargs are based ultimately more on the original medieval concept of them).
Just thought that you might find these comments interesting.
Greg responds...
Very. I had the benefit of knowing the "legend" so to speak, more or less from the time that the idea of Gargoyles was introduced to me. But we were actually counting on our audience needing a perspective twist. In fact, one of the little sad things is we can't ever do it again really. Now you all know.
Emmlei writes...
I was thinking recently about Demona and the Canmores/Hunters, and it dawned on me that it's a lot like the Montagues and Caputlets of 'Romeo and Juliet'. Both involve two 'families' battling each other over a past greivance, one whose cause unfortunately became lost in the past (for Gargoyles, it's some kid getting slashed in the face, and we never learn the cause in 'R&J'). In both, the drive for revenge becomes the driving force for keeping the feud going. It's kind of tragic that in both stories, something as low as vengence causes so much pain on both sides. So, was that intentional or did I just come across one of those universal themes?
Greg responds...
Largely the universal theme thing. The obvious piece that's missing to make it truly parallel R&J is the young lovers. And I don't think that Jason & Elisa really fill those rolls, wouldn't you agree?
I was going to do a much more dead-on R&J riff in NEW OLYMPIANS with Terry Chung and Sphinx.
Todd Jensen writes...
You mentioned that you have a project planned in which Theseus will be a major character. Just out of curiosity, what sort of project is it? Is it a proposed television series, a movie screenplay, a stage play, or something else?
Greg responds...
It began when I was a kid. Originally, it was going to be a comic book Universe. Now, who knows?
Aaron writes...
"I've seen the movie. What's this post in reference too?"
Check the archives. ;) I've always wanted to say that.
But seriously, do you remember the bit in Dead Again where Kenneth Braunagh asks Andy Garcia what Kenneth's 40s doppleganger whispered to him before he was executed, and Andy says "He kissed me."
I asked if that was the answer to the old what did Titania whisper to Fox question, and asked if you knew what movie I was riffing on. Hope this clears things up.
Greg responds...
Yep. Sorry, I was so slow.
"Check the archives." <grumble, mumble, grumble>
Todd Jensen writes...
One little Arthurian note about your theory that the grave at Glastonbury really contained the bodies of Lancelot and Guinevere rather than Arthur and Guinevere. I noticed that Roger Lancelyn Green went for the same notion himself. (And it's not a bad way of explaining the grave, either, once you a) recall that Lancelot turned monk at Glastonbury after Arthur's passing and so was in the area in his final days, and b) go for the notion of Avalon being a faerie island - as it's portrayed in "Gargoyles" - rather than just an old-fashioned name for Glastonbury).
Greg responds...
Yep.
You and me should start a R.L. Green fan club.
Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...
The questions keep on coming in!
Have you every seen the cartoon Exosquad? It was the first cartoon series with a serious running plotline I saw. It did not have quite the breath of Gargoyles [what does?], but it was interested in a much smaller timeframe- a devastating war and the events of the last half century or so that created it. Aside from a running story line the thing that most reminded me of Gargoyles in it was the complex theme behind it. It did deal a bit with accepting the strange and different and the consequences of hatred, but even more it dealt with the idea of mankind as beings who can create far beyond their ability to take responsibility for their creations. If you had not heard of it before Gargoyles, did anyone bring it up when you were working on Starship Troopers? [btw, I am greatly enjoying that series and was very happy to see your name at the beginning of a few ep] Whoever came up with Exosquad has probably read Heinlein. As the only member of my family who has not yet read Starship Trooper or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, I can only guess that the use of exosuits, jump troops, and pirates descendent from abandoned penal colonies were borrowed from Heinlein- almost as explicitly as Roughnecks does. If you can get your hands on some copies of the series I highly recomend it.
Greg responds...
> The questions keep on coming in!
No kidding! I thought I'd never get through "June 27"! Were you guys having a contest of your own that day to see how many questions you could post?
Anyway, I've seen one episode of Exosquad. Unfortunately, it was a middle episode and I couldn't keep all the characters straight. I didn't stick with it. But I've heard great things.
But no, I don't recall anyone mentioning it while we were working on Troopers. There's no doubt however that Heinlien orginated the ENTIRE powersuit, sci-fi jump troops, space marines idea. (I'm not sure about the pirates.) It may all seem old hat today -- heck, we even borrowed from it in Gargoyles more than once -- but it all originated with Heinlein.
I've never read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" either, by the way. But I've read a lot of other Heinlein. He's definitely one of my all time favorite Science Fiction authors.
Charles writes...
How did you or one of your fellow creators come up with the idea for Thailog's name? I realize it is Goliath spelled pretty much backwards.
Greg responds...
I was at a sound mix session for the edited version of AWAKENING. We kept playing scenes over and over to make sure the sound was right. We'd listen to it and then rewind to listen again. I kept hearing the word "Thailog" over and over and over again. It was driving me nuts. Finally, I realized it was "Goliath" SAID (not spelled) backwards. Right then and there, I came up with the idea for Goliath's evil clone. I knew what he looked like (inspired somewhat -- believe it or not -- by what John Byrne did to the Fantastic Four's costumes after their trip to the Negative Zone and by Darkwing Duck's nemesis NegaDuck) and I knew where he'd come from and I knew what he'd be named: THAILOG. It just sounded so great.
steven s (repost by Aris) writes...
Just watched "the edge" .In the scene when the gargs are fighting the steel clan, goliath says to brooklyn "No doubt for us to lead them back to our new sanctuary" meaning xanatos wants to find out where the Gargoyles live.
But at the end of the episode, when the gargs turn to stone they are outside on top of the clock tower. Don't u think that would be a easy place for xanatos to find the gargs? seeing as they would be visible from say a chopper?
I think it would be a lot safer if the gargs turned to stone indoors.
thanks in advance.Keep up the episode reviews, i enjoy reading your opinions on them.
Greg responds...
We felt the Gargs being on the ledge was a classic example of them hiding in plain sight. (Compare Poe's "The Purloined Letter".) I don't think Xanatos was checking every building in town. I don't think, frankly, it occured to him that they'd be quite that easy to find.
Still, largely the gargs were still operating out of a custom that wasn't designed to safeguard them even back in the tenth century. It might not have been wise, but it was their WAY.
Fenrir writes...
Greetings Mr. Weisman!
On 12/29/99 you said:
"Who said any of this was the Archmage's plan? Well, he did. But he was an arrogant bastard. So do you trust him? Where did he get the plan? By observing his future self carry it out. Where did his future self get the plan? By observing HIS future self carry it out. Maybe there's something larger going on here... "
I myself have dubbed this sort of time-travel story The Archmage Paradox, but anyways: Was your statement intended to be a hint of something from a future series? Or even from your intended Season Three? Just curious.
Greg responds...
Not from season three, but yes, eventually.
And I believe what you are flatteringly referring to as "The Archmage Paradox" is actually what is known as a "Working Paradox". That is as opposed to a "Non-Working Paradox" like the kind where a guy goes back to kill his own great-grandfather. A Working Paradox is also sometimes known as a Circular Paradox (for obvious reasons), or a Heinlien Paradox -- since Robert Heinlein's short story "All You Zombies" is the ultimate example of such a paradox. It's a great story by the way. Everyone should read it. It was a real influence on my view of time travel.
Chapter XVII: "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"
Written by Brynne Chandler Reaves & Lydia C. Marano
Story Edited by Michael Reaves
Well, I watched "Lighthouse" again last night with my family. First thing I noticed was the bad "Previously" recap. This is all my fault. The recap features Macbeth, because I wanted to make sure the audience knew who he was. But that blows out the first act surprise reveal that he's behind it all. Up to that point in the story, you'd be thinking Xanatos. But because of the dopey recap, you know it MUST be Mac. Later in the season, after I got hammered over these recaps by the folks on the Disney Afternoon e-Mailing list, I learned never to put anything into the recap that wasn't revealed in the first five minutes of the show to follow. But here's a perfect example of me screwing up my own mystery.
We introduce archeologists Lydia Duane and Arthur Morwood-Smythe. Dr. Duane was named after writers Lydia Marano and Diane Duane. Professor Morwood-Smythe was named after writers Arthur Byron Cover and Peter Morwood. Arthur is Lydia's husband. Peter is Diane's husband. I don't know anyone named Smythe.
Macbeth episodes, at least up to this point, seem to be cursed with mediocre animation. (Of course, everything's relative. Mediocre on Gargs was still better than most series got. But relative to our expectations, this ep is pretty weak.) I bet Elisa would have really looked cute in that red baseball hat if the animation had been even slightly better.
I don't know how clear it is in the prologue. The idea there, was that the wind was blowing through the lyre. The haunting sound drew the archeologists further into the cave. They read the warning which indicates that the seeker of knowledge has nothing to fear, the destroyer everything. They are supposed to hesitate, look at each other, decide that they are seekers not destroyers and then open the chest. Merlin's clearly put a safety spell of some kind on the chest. An image of the old man appears and basically checks to confirm whether the archeologists are in fact seekers or destroyers. Satisfied, the spell disipates. But you can imagine what would have happened if a Hakon type had stumbled in.
Anyway, it never felt like all that came across. Did it?
Brooklyn (re: Broadway): "Ignorance is bliss." In High School, I had a classmate named Howard Bliss. We had chemistry together with Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller once asked the class a question that we all should have known. No one knew the answer, and our own idiocy generated laughter among Miller's students. He just shook his head and said: "Ignorance is bliss." He forgot that he had a student named Bliss. It generated more laughter. I don't know why I told you that. But it's what I thought about when Brooklyn read that line.
There's a semi-heavy-handed "Read More About It" feel to the clock tower conversation regarding Merlin. Goliath practically quotes those public service announcements, saying there are many books about him in the library. I don't mind. I had wanted to cite a few actual books -- like Mary Stewart's THE CRYSTAL CAVE -- but our legal department wouldn't give us clearance for that. Very short-sighted.
A connection is made between Merlin and the Magus. This was not an accident, as at that time, I had planned to have the Magus journey with Arthur on his Pendragon quests to find Excalibur and Merlin. I later changed my mind. But the Magus does at least play a Merlin-esque roll in the Avalon three parter.
I always wonder who was playing in "Celebrity Hockey" that night.
Macbeth's standard Electro-Magnetic weapon was my idea. I didn't design it exactly, but I did make crude little drawings of something that looked vaguely like a staple gun, with two electrodes that generated the charge. I was always proud of that weapon. It was uniquely Macbeth's (and Banquo and Fleances'). Set him apart from all the concussion, laser and particle beam weapons we used elsewhere. (I did the same kind of thing on the Quarymen's hammers.)
It's fun to listen to B.J. Ward voice both sides of the confrontation between Fleance and Duane.
Banquo's model sheet showed him squinting out of one eye. Some episodes, not so much this one, but some took that to mean he only had one eye. So he walks around looking like Popeye for the entire episode. (His big lantern jaw helps accentuate that.) There are a couple of Popeye moments in this ep. But more in his next appearance I think.
It was my idea to just have Mac's mansion rebuilt without explanation. I don't exactly regret it, but it's kinda cheap. We burned it way down. He has it rebuilt. It makes sense. But we usually dealt with consequences more than that.
When he rebuilds it, he installs those cannons. They were supposed to be giant-sized versions of the hand-held E-M guns. But they don't come off that way. Instead they fire at the gargoyles. And mostly seem to destroy the various turrets of Macbeth's own place. Ugghh.
As in "Leader" we get another scene of Goliath and friends confronting Owen at the castle. Looking for Xanatos, when in fact Xanatos isn't the threat. It made sense in both episodes. And it's always nice to showcase Owen a bit. But after two of those in four episodes, I wasn't gonna do that again. (At least not until KINGDOM.)
I love the "Macbeth Theme" that Carl Johnson created for the villain, which is featured at the end of ACT ONE.
Macbeth opens the "second scroll" and starts to read Merlin's seal. This caused tons of fan confusion, as he read "Sealed by my own [i.e. Merlin's] hand". No one seemed to get that he was reading that. They thought Mac was saying that he [i.e. Macbeth] had sealed the scroll. Of course that notion renders the whole thing confusing as hell. But it never occured to us that anyone would take it that way.
We also introduce Jeffrey Robbins and Gilly in this episode. Gilly is of course short for Gilgamesh, one of the legendary characters that Robbins once wrote about. It's just a bit odd, because Gilly is a female.
Robbins is a very cool character. Wish we had had the opportunity to use him more.
I like how when Robbins and Hudson are introducing themselves, Robbins gives his first and last name. Hudson says, I'm Hudson, "like the river". An echo of how he got the name. And a reminder that names aren't natural to him. Even if they are addictive.
John Rhys-Davies is just fantastic as Macbeth. I love his speech to Broadway. It accomplishes everything we needed it too. That line about the "human heart" by the way is a reference to the Arthur/Lance/Gwen triangle.
I also love his line: "I'm Old, but not THAT Old." This was a little hint to what we'd reveal in CITY OF STONE. Sure Macbeth's from the eleventh century, but not the fifth or sixth. It's like someone saying to someone my age, "So what did you do during World War II?"
Lennox Macduff. That was a cool touch. Also a hint as to how Macbeth feels about Shakespeare.
I like the Phone Book scene too. Hudson says "Hmm. Magic Book." Robbins replies: "Aren't they all." Great stuff.
By the way, as Robbins goes through the phone book, scanning names, he passes "Macduff, Cameron". One of my college roommates was Cameron Douglas, who was really interested in his Scotish heritage. That was a mini-tribute to him.
My daughter Erin reacts to the fact that Macbeth threatens to use Merlin's spells on Broadway. She points out that Macbeth had promised to let Broadway go after he had the scrolls. She's surprised he hasn't kept his word. My wife at that point reminds Erin that Macbeth is the villain. Erin gets that. But you can tell it isn't quite sitting right with her.
Later when Macbeth DOES let everyone go without a struggle, Erin is clearly not sure what to make of him.
And on one level, that's exactly as we wanted it. Macbeth is a troubled guy -- a hero who's devolved into a villain. A suicidal villain on top of that, though we hadn't revealed that yet. But he is a villain. Later, it's debatable, but here he's taken to being an ends-justify-the-means kinda guy. And even his ends are hazy at best.
I love Broadway's "precious magic" speech. It's so wierd hearing poetry from the big galoot. But that's so Broadway. The soul of a poet. Bill Faggerbakke was a huge help.
And I love Robbins "They are lighthouses in the dark sea of time..." speech. I love that it's not exactly the title. Brynne and Lydia did fine work on this one.
I wonder what happened to that lyre?
Ambrosia writes...
Greg, you could write a book: 101 Ways to Live a *Really Long Time*.
It seems everyone is at least a thousand years old in the gargoyle universe :)
Anyway, my question is, how were you planning on introducing Theseus? More meddling from the Weird Sisters? Or did he just eat really well, excercise and refrain from smoking?
:)
Greg responds...
I never said I was planning to intro Theseus. Theseus is a major character in another project of mine.
I'm sure eventually, Theseus would make an appearance in the Garg Universe. Either in TimeDancer or in flashback, but I don't have any specific plans for that right now, other than perhaps in dealing with the "truth" behind Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream". And I'm rethinking that these days.
James Park writes...
One of my favorite quotes is the one by Jeffrey Robbins at the end of Lighthouse in a Sea of Time. The one
The written word is all that stands between memory and oblivion. Without books as our anchors, we are cast adrift neither teaching, nor learning. They are windows on the past, mirrors on the present, and prisms reflecting all possible futures. Books are lighthouses erected in the dark
sea of time.
1) Who wrote this? I have it currently attributed to you, but do you know who actually wrote it?
2) Didn't oral traditions serve the same function (in at least some ways--keeping customs and histories alive) as books in certain cultures, like Native American, and others?
Greg responds...
1. No, not me. It was either Brynne Chandler Reaves or Lydia Marano or both. The title itself, "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", comes I believe from a Barbara Tuchman book. (Can anyone confirm this?)
2. Probably, yes.
Todd Jensen writes...
An additional little thought, inspired by your comparing Coldstone to the Frankenstein monster. As somebody who's read the original book by Mary Shelley, and quite liked it, I feel that while Coldstone certainly has a strong echo of the monster in him, as you've pointed out, I feel that Goliath does as well, although more in a contrast than in a similarity.
Like the monster (as portrayed by Mary Shelley in her book; alas for the way that Hollywood weakened the character by turning him into a mute, shuffling brute), Goliath is a noble being who appears threatening towards humans and is shunned and feared by so many humans whom he seeks to help. Also like the monster, Goliath is a thoughtful and eloquent being, and well-read with a taste for the classics (the Frankenstein monster reads Plutarch's Lives and Milton's "Paradise Lost", while Goliath reads Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky). The big difference is that the Frankenstein monster is all alone, with nobody to befriend him, and becomes embittered towards humanity thus, while Goliath has the clan and Elisa, which undoubtedly helps him. They're almost foils, in a sense. (Of course, Goliath also isn't an artificial creation, either, as the monster was). Just a little thought that had occurred to me.
Greg responds...
I like that analysis. Very sweet.
By the way, it always blew me away that the VERY FIRST BOOK the Monster ever read in "FRANKENSTEIN" was Milton's Paradise Lost. I hadn't read FRANKENSTEIN until college, and also not until after I had read Paradise Lost. (Of course, I knew the basics of both stories long before I actually read the books.)
I couldn't imagine having to teach myself to read with PARADISE LOST. Not exactly FUN WITH DICK AND JANE or Doctor Seuss, you know?
Todd Jensen writes...
About what time did Oberon and Titania get married? Was Shakespeare corect about them being a wedded couple during the time of Theseus?
Greg responds...
Ask me again some other time, I'm currently in a re-think on Midsummer. I'm not sure how it's gonna come out.
Faieq Ali writes...
My brother asked me this ages ago and I didn't have the answer at the time, so maybe you could help me.
If, before 1995 (when Demona got the ability to turn to human), a hunter or someone else, shattered Demona during the day, what would happen? Would she crumble to dust and die or what?
Greg responds...
It never happened. It's moot. You're looking to establish parameters to the Macbeth/Demona spell by creating non-existant hypotheticals. To paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson, a petty consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Get over it.
Anonymous writes...
What did Artemis in Greek mythology look like? We know Apollo was a guy with flaming hair.
Greg responds...
Apollo's a guy with flaming hair? Since when? Not in any depiction I've ever seen.
As for Artemis, I think she was beautiful, athletic, lithe, dark of hair, haughty, virginal, sympathetic but not empathetic, proud, tall, regal, capable of kindness, of love, of regret, afraid of change, loyal, protective, dangerous, with a hell of a temper, intelligent, struggling, untouchable...
A goddess.
Joxter the Mighty writes...
Ahhh... So THAT'S why the Miranda episodes of Bonkers were better. Not sucking up here Greg, they were jsut genuinely better for the most part. Thanks for explaining that.
Greg responds...
I agree, at least story-wise, conceptually better for sure.
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