matt writes...

Jim R., i think that Greg explained time travel pretty well and it makes sense to me. if you were to go back in time to save JFK one way or another you failed cuz JFK was assasinated! its like Xanatos said, "You won't, because you didn't. Time travels funny, that way." you wouldn,t succeed it saving JFK because you obviously didn't save him, he was killed despite what you would do. another example is "M.I.A." Goliath knew from meeting Leo and Una that Griff didn't come home that night so when he went back in time even if he did everything to keep Griff in his time something else would have happened. Griff would have been killed etc. time is like a river and any attempt to change it will end in failure because if history had been changed you would never had wanted to try and change it in the first place! does all this make sense?

He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named writes...

I just returned from a vacation in Disney Land. (Boy, was it crowded!) So I figured that I could find some Gargoyle merchandise there; those stores have everything Disney. I walked into one, then another...and another...and another...with no luck. Not a single piece of Gargoyles merchandise anywhere in the park!!!
In one store, I asked an employee, "Do you have any Gargoyles stuff?"
He replied, "I...don't know what you mean...I don't know what a Gargoyles is."
It's nice to know that Disney employees know so much about there company's works. (And they use good grammar, too!) I have searched everywhere for Garg stuff, without luck. Where can I find it? Why isn't there any to be found; especially in Disney Land?

Ed writes...

"CITY OF STONE"

I first watched this about four years ago. I'd seen some of the later episodes of "Gargoyles" when we got the Disney Channel for the first time in the summer but I only saw a few episodes before they stopped airing the show. Later episodes - "EYE OF THE BEHOLDER", "THE GREEN", "THE NEW OLYMPIANS" and "CLOUD FATHERS" through to "THE GATHERING" PART ONE). You can imagine how it was to wait 14 months to find out how it ended. Anyway, I stumbled across the first part of "AWAKENING" completely by accident on GMTV one morning only a few weeks later. When they got to "REAWAKENING", they had a little advert in the break - for the next two weeks they planned to show two back-to-back episodes, and they showed teasers which made me sit up in my seat - Demona smashing stone humans with her "another human bites the dust" line being the one that always rings in my mind.

So, of course, I tuned in. I think, in hindsight, that I missed out by not having the cliffhangers to parts 1 and 3 in the same way. But I still feel now about part 1 as I did then. It's probably the most chilling cliffhanger you did. "HUNTER'S MOON" had two dramatic ones and I guess part 1 of that certainly ranks as quite scary. But I didn't see that until over a year later (GMTV only showed about 30 episodes and I had to wait until Disney started again). By that time, I'd seen many of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes and had found a clip online showing "They did this to her," but cutting out the final "and I will kill them". Anyway, this cliffhanger I came to completely cold.

I think it's the music that gets me. It's so perfectly controlled and quiet, and pairs so well with the still face of Elisa. And the accompanying loose ends were fascinating too. For one, the stone humans - I knew what was going to happen to some of them from the teaser of Demona's smashing spree and this didn't do anything to lessen my appreciation of it. But then there was Xanatos and Fox. Bear in mind that at this point, I hadn't seen "VOWS" and hadn't yet realised that season 2 was being aired out of continuity. I remembered that they had a baby in "THE GATHERING" though, and was pretty hooked by their characters as such. Owen and Fox added to the drama really well: Fox's 'what can I say, I was curious' line is great and beautifully read. Same with Owen's 'Demona lied to us'. It's so simple, so urgent - a real panicked Owen. Loved it. Xanatos didn't have any particular outstanding dialogue here, but the animation on him is great. You're right - having a show where you really care about the villains, heck having a show where you can have a 4-part story where the problem is created by and solved by the villains (if you include the Weird Sisters and Xanatos), is something pretty special as well.

Basically, this is my favourite of the three cliffhangers. (Part 2's grew on me a lot. Part 3's lost its impact.)

As for Macbeth, I already was fascinated by him. I'd seen him only about five weeks ago in 'ENTER MACBETH' and the name intrigued me. So did the character. And it didn't hurt that his debut episode was great as well. (I can't help wondering how I'd have felt about Macbeth here had I seen 'LIGHTHOUSE' first - Macbeth appeared a lot less mysterious and a lot more villainous there). I never thought it was the same Macbeth that Shakespeare had written about. And I don't remember the naming thing being of particular interest to me. My reaction was more 'yes, it's Macbeth!', rather than 'wow, maybe we'll find out how he named her'. I can't remember when I realised he was in it either (whether he was in the ad or not). But I was bowled for six when I realised that he was the real Macbeth. And I knew nothing about the actual history of Macbeth at the time, although I'd seen several Shakepeare plays in the adaptation series that the BBC ran recently.

It was nice to see Matt too. I notice in your original draft you included Derek in place of Fox. Now, Fox is perfect for the situation but I'd seen 'HER BROTHER'S KEEPER' only a little while ago and Derek really impressed me - I couldn't wait to see how that story turned out. (And even longer to see 'THE CAGE' after that!). Anyway, I always thought it was a pity we didn't see more of Derek working for Xanatos. (Although since 'METAMORPHOSIS' is so early in the season I guess I now see why).

The Wyvern rerun. I'm so glad that you included some revision on the Demona/Captain betrayal thing. I'd seen 'AWAKENING' pretty recently (well, a few months anyway). But still, seeing episodes a week apart and the fact that the story was quite complicated led me to be thankful that there was some explanation. I only got confused once. I mixed up the Magus and the Archmage in 'VOWS'. Eventually I realised that I should just stick a tape in and should have done this from the very start. I regretted that immensely, especially with this story.

And yeah, it was painfully obvious that Macbeth was Macbeth. I didn't care. I was just desperate to see more of the guy. Not as much as the Weird Sisters though. What a presence. Every time they appeared they confused the hell out of me and I loved it.

Of course, I didn't really have to wait very long for part 2 and so most of what I remember is mixed up with that. So I'd better wait for your next ramble to say more…

Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, one other thing about "City of Stone Part One" that I forgot to mention. One touch that I liked was the bit about Findlaech's declaration of loyalty to Prince Duncan. I particularly liked it because of the light that it gives to Duncan's having Findlaech assassinated: not only was it an evil deed, but it was also unnecessary. Findlaech really didn't have any plans to put Macbeth on the throne and outmaneuver Duncan. So Duncan would have become King anyway without needing to send the Hunter over to Castle Moray. In fact, by having Findlaech assassinated, he wound up moving one step closer to the very future that he feared (Macbeth becoming king in his place).

You might almost view it as a parallel to Demona's helping to bring about the Wyvern Massacre, partly to avert the vision that she'd seen in "Vows" (assuming that my suspicion is correct that Demona believed that the massacre had been carried out by Princess Katharine's people; as I mentioned before, the Demona from 1995 tells her only that the humans did it without saying which humans, which could make misinterpretation very easy). In each case, the very attempt that the character makes to avoid an undesired future helps to bring about that future. The old self-fulfilling prophecy business again. (And it crops up, of course, even more in Part Three).

Todd Jensen writes...

After having read your ramble on "City of Stone Part One", I thought that I'd give my own response on it.

I've already given a previous comment on "City of Stone" focusing more on Demona and Macbeth than on the gargs, and how while I usually don't like episodes of a series that focus mainly on the antagonists and leave the protagonists to one side, this occasion was different, and why I believe that to be. So I'll move on to other matters.

1. About the Eggs: To tell the truth, I honestly hadn't given their fate in the series any real thought (beyond the fact that I did believe that Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom had taken good care of them) for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the present day. I didn't think it likely that gargoyles naturally lived for a thousand years (and of course, we now know that they don't and that Demona's only managed it because of the Weird Sisters' help), so I assumed that the eggs had long ago hatched, and the young gargoyles grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before Xanatos ever relocated Castle Wyvern to New York. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of a place such as Avalon where time moved slower. So I simply hadn't given any thought to the eggs having any impact on present-day events in the Gargoyles Universe.

2. The first set of flashbacks, the one to the Wyvern Massacre of 994, felt very effective to me - I particularly find Demona's grieving farewell to a stone Goliath extremely moving (and the musical accompaniment fits it very well). You'd have to have a heart of stone (pun not intended) to remain unmoved by it, as well. And the "What have I - what have they done?" moment is a memorable and chilling point for me. (One thing that I've noticed is how often Demona comes close to realizing her error and turning around for the better - and then she rejects the opportunity and the moment passes. Kind of sad, really).

3. I must confess that the subtle hints about Owen's true nature slipped past me; I hadn't equated the "tricky" adjective with "trickster" as in "Puck the trickster". I was just assuming, I suppose, that Demona was considering Owen the more cunning of the two (which I mentally disagreed with since I don't like to imagine Xanatos as less smart than Owen).

And I'd also noticed the way that Demona magically overpowers Owen at the same time that she's reading the spell, and felt a bit puzzled by it. It seemed to me almost as if she was casting two spells at once.

4. The 1020 flashback: The big thing that I thought that I'd say about the Macbeth flashbacks here (for the entire four-parter, actually) is that I do feel that I was better prepared for the differences between the "Gargoyles" Macbeth and the Shakespearean Macbeth than most of the viewers may have been, since I'd read up on the historical Macbeth already. So I knew a good deal of the data about him that showed up in "City of Stone". I knew that Gruoch was the real name of the historical Lady Macbeth (and so I could immediately guess as to the role of the character Gruoch in "City of Stone" when she was first introduced). I knew that Macbeth was, in actual history, a much better king than Duncan was, and that he had overthrown Duncan in battle rather than murdering him in his sleep. I knew about Duncan's son Malcolm being nicknamed Canmore (the name that "Gargoyles" used for him). So I felt quite prepared for the story that "City of Stone" used.

The one case where the Shakespeare version did throw me was when, in the course of watching this episode for the first time, I thought "Findlaech being given as the name of Macbeth's father? But I thought that it was Sinell." (The name of Macbeth's father in the play). But then that evening, I happened to be reading something up on the historical Macbeth, and discovered that his father was indeed named Findlaech - which quite amazed and impressed me. (I also spotted Gillecomgain on Macbeth's family tree as Gruoch's first husband, and was astounded to discover that the first Hunter was a real historical figure thereby; I had known before, however, that in actual history Gruoch had been married to somebody else before Macbeth, and about Luach/Lulach).

5. The bits at the end with Owen, Fox, and Elisa turning to stone were very chilling to me; I'd known that something nasty was going to happen from Demona's spell, but not what, and when we actually saw it take place, it definitely felt spooky. And it's certainly a great cliffhanger, as you said (and I hadn't even noticed that the cliffhanger was directed more towards Xanatos and his associates than to the protagonists).

6. I had indeed believed, for a while, that Demona's spell was how she survived - though by the end of Part Four, I knew otherwise.

At any rate, I thought that it was a great episode, and a great beginning to the second season's first multi-parter. Thanks for the ramble, Greg.

matt writes...

i just watched "Heritage" today. i didn't like this episode for a long time but i've started to like it more and more. i think this episode forshadowed the rest of the series even more than "Future Tense" did.

for instance, when Goliath is in the water and shouts, "Elisa!!" it sounds and looks exactly like Elisa's "death Scene" in "Hunter's Moon III" and Elisa and Goliath's reunion really shows their growing relationship, so much so that i had never thought of those two as a possible couple until this episode (i know, i must have been an idiot not to see it).

"Heritage" also really shows that while Angela is very intelligent she is also very naive about the world outside of Avalon. i don't think she really begin to understand the way the world works until "The Reckoning".

Also, when the whole world tour began i figured Goliath and co. would meet other gargs somewhere and i was so anxious for this that i was fooled into believeing those gargs were real even after Grandmother said that there were no gargs there. poor Goliath, he thought he finally found another clan...

its a good episode, Greg. like "Turf" and "The Silver Falcon" i kinda grew to really like this episode alot!

Jim R. writes...

Happy New Year!
What are your New Years resolutions, Greg? I'm hoping one of them is to get Gargoyles back on the air. But I'm sure you've had that one on your list for at least 2-3 years, right?
If matt was the first to post in 2001, then I hope to be the last person to post today (01/01/01).

Todd Jensen writes...

Re your comment on changing Broadway's character from female to male:

Well, maybe it was cowardice, but I'm certain that it was a good thing for Angela that you did. She wouldn't have been able to have had a S&P-approved relationship with Broadway otherwise, after all :)

Heather N. Allen writes...

City of Stone...what a great miniseries! Not one of my specific favorite sets of episodes, but I love how everything storywise came together ('what a tangled web we weave'!) I ADORE continuing story lines, which is why I never got into many 'sitcom' cartoons. (I DO admit having a weakness for "Freakazoid", though...)

And thanks for explaining that whole screw up with Demona looking too old in that 'new' scene with the Captain of the Guard. That has always annoyed the heck outta me, but I wasn't thinking along the lines of the poor animators trying to keep things straight. Considering I want to go into some type of animation, I feel guilty for not being more thoughtful! ^_^

Now, on to some questions/musings/etc...

"If it turns out short, we can add the bit about 'Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane', which I've left out for now."

1>You planned to use this witches' prophecy from the play in the show? How were you going to fit it in exactly?

This was one of my favorite ironies in the play (now that I've read it!), right next to the prophecy about Mac not being killed 'by a man of woman-born'. And if you think about it, that irony _was_ portrayed in the series. Demona isn't woman-born, and she certainly ain't a man! ^_~

"He gets in his helicopter heading for Studio, with Derek at pilot."

2> You mean you didn't have "Metamorphosis" planned out at this point in time? Or were you just confused? Or am I just confused...?

"Duncan goes to destroy them starting with Demona."

3> Whoa, hold on! I just thought of something...how'd Duncan know about Gil's feud with Demona specifically? Did Gil tell him? And did he pass on the legend of "The Demon" down to Canmore? How did the Eternal Hunt for the Demon get passed down (I mean, how did future Canmores specifcally know to hunt HER?)

"Duncan is killed in some way. (Preferably the same way Find & Gil bought it.)"

4> Well, we know he DIDN'T die this way. How did that whole magical orb thing come into the picture? Who's idea was it? (Yours? Mr. Reaves?)

"...To Demona, who is having a grand old time with the 'stoners'..."
"...She's practically giddy, talking to herself and the 'stoners'..."
"...In the skies above Manhattan, Xanatos & Goliath fly abreast for a moment as they 'pass gas'..."

>No questions here, I just thought that was funny. ^_~

>Hmm...I just ran this by spell check, and it suggested "manatees" for "Xanatos". How the heck do you get _manatees_ outta that?! There's no "X" in manatees! Sheesh!

Ciao, thanks again!
~H\A~

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

We've all been awaiting this ramble for a long time, and no doubt, the coming weeks will be VERY enjoyable. :)

CITY OF STONE, PT 1.

I'll admit to you that the opening terrorist sequence wasn't all that effective to me. It came off rushed. But it provided an excellent transition to Demona. And then... THE FLASHBACK. The first of many. My God, this was glorious. I always imagine that if I were to ever show off Gargoyles to someone new in under 5 minutes I'd show them this flashback. Even though deductive reasoning filled the holes that this flashback does in, it was still such an experience actually seeing it take place, like witnessing history. The Wyvern Massacre was the defining moment of the series. And now, to see the behind-the-scenes was breathtaking beyond description. Demona's tearful turn to stone, then horrific discovery at sundown were amazing. That 'blood-curdle' music is just great, too.

Let's see, I can't go on like this with every scene, so I'll try to sum up from here.

You mentioned it was originally going to be a three-parter. Allow me to accidentally spit my drink all over my keyboard at reading that. Even now, I think about how much better it could've told its story with five or even six parts. Just three? Impossible. There is so much jammed in there. Too much, really. I'm glad you're here for insight, because I'll be honest: I got scarcely any of what you had in mind for various characters' motivations and inter-relating. Everything was crunched to 'sound bites' and didn't get enough flesh for me to interpret what you were aiming for. Of course, I got all the necessary things needed to understand the flow of the story, but I regret not getting the rest...

This is completely random, but I just thought I'd say that when Macbeth removes his Hunter's Mask later, in Part 4 I think, I like how his hair was ruffled. A nice touch. Very appreciated.

Anyway, to do with Part 1, I have really one more comment. I think the "mistake" you made with the Weird Sisters in their portrayel in this multi-parter has to do with just one key scene... aww, crap, here I go referring all the way to Part 4 again. Oh well, the scene in question is the very end, the "they are our responsibility... our children... that is a story for another day" scene. Up until then, I believe our impression of the Sisters was of benevolent helpers, like you wanted us to believe, according to your memos. However, in this scene, they suddenly "reveal" that they actually had a reason for helping them. That there is a greater design. That Demona and Macbeth have destinies to fulfill. I, and I'm sure most other people, suddenly got insanely excited thinking that D&M were going to be instrumental in saving the world from some great prophecy or something. But as it turns out, it's just a petty strike on an island...

Just my take. (I'd be interested - if this doesn't sound like me usurping your forum, Greg - in what others' takes were.)

Lastly, I just thought I'd mention that, ironically, I was talking with a friend this morning about the play Macbeth. I mentioned Gargoyles and off-handedly about its superior historical accuracy, to which Friend reponded that Macbeth, the play, was fiction. I insisted there really was a Macbeth and Duncan, but he was convinced otherwise. Interesting, huh?

Of course, I myself thought it was all made-up by you and the makers of the show till I looked it up in my Encyclopedia, to see what kind of historical "damage" you were doing in drawing these elaborate tales set in real countries' pasts... heh.