Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

Comments on "Leader of the Pack"

When I first saw Coyote scaling the prison wall I immediatly said, "that is SO obviously Xanatos." And when he took off the helmet I honnestly thought you were running out of surprises, I was pleasantly surprised at the end. When Bronx leapt on Coyote and chewed his face off, I literally screamed "WHAT THE F---! THEY KILLED XANATOS!" Then as soon as he got off the ground, for a moment I thought he was still Xanatos and that he would acquire a Dr. Doom esque look to hide his disfigurement. Than he turned out to be a robot, and it all made sense. Than I bust my gut laughing at Hyena's reaction.

Did I think that Xanatos truly loved Fox, well to be honest, no. I thought they were like Boris and Natasha as lovers. But I did like the development in "Eye" and "Vows". Now, I did think that Fox was in love with him after "Brother", just something I knew.

You created two great characters there.

Abigail Thorne writes...

Quick comment on "Leader of the Pack." I had already figured out that Fox loved Xanatos from that scene in "Her Brother's Keeper." But I had no idea that Xanatos returned those feelings or that the two of them were an item--that last scene in the limo was an awesome surprise. I was also totally duped by the Coyote robot--I thought that was Xanatos. I had felt a little uneasy about Coyote's tunnel-vision focus on vengence, but dismissed it because the story was so cool and I was glad the show was back. But when you showed that Coyote was a robot, and that Xanatos clearly didn't care about vengence, it all clicked. Great surprise, great clue, great episode!!

Scott Iskow writes...

Re: "Leader of the Pack"

I have to admit, "Leader" wasn't one of my favorite episodes. In fact, it's near the bottom of the list, right above "Monsters." It did have some great moments, though. I loved the ending with Xanatos and Fox. I liked the scene between Hyena and Fox before they were sprung loose. I also liked the interaction between Brooklyn and Lexington.

But what I liked most of all was something I hadn't noticed until your ramble: The trickery. A lot of clever bits in this show had me fooled. For one thing, I never expected a robot to have to wear a suit of armor, which contributed to my believing it was actually Xanatos. Coyote is the first robot on the show to hide his face under helmet. In a way, it was wearing *two* masks: The helmet, and Xanatos' likeness. The whole show is laced with this kind of trickery.

Too often, I find myself able to predict what is going to happen on a show. It seems that too many of them follow the tired old conventions. Even "Batman," which started out new and fresh, sank into predictable patterns toward the end of its run on the WB Network.

I respect any story that can take me by surprise. Even if it's not my favorite one. In my opinion, that's what separates the talented writers from the ones who merely regurgitate ideas from a preset formula. I think the word for it is... "creativity."

Puck<40> writes...

O.o; just saw all those clan posts you had to look through. Some people have lots of time on there hands. <like I'm one to talk>. Anycase. 9.9; as so my useless comment won't get kicked. A sincere note of..
Thank you for giving us a show <with a little help from the evil hordes of Disney under the name of Buena Vista cause they didn't have full faith in the show>. And thanks to all the people who helped with it. And you for somehow having the weird mindzap to tap into a universe that is not of our own. :) Thats it. <runs of>

Bråndeewine writes...

Greg, your ramblings on "Leader of the Pack" were great. You are too cool. I may only be 23, but I remember Westworld too. :oP As for Fembots, well, I didn't see any machine guns sticking out of Coyote's "jumblies". :oP
*chuckles then sighs* I would really love to get my hands on all of those episodes. I suppose I'll have to go get a satelite....cable sucks anyway. Hearing you talk about the episodes, sounding like such a kid with the enthusium and vigor of one seeing it for the first time...well, it is truly captivating. I love your rambles. Man! What great eye-openers they are!

Bud-Clare writes...

Leader of the Pack comments...

I love the part where Bronx bites Coyote. The first time I watched it, I was sitting there thinking, "Come on, Bronx, bite his head!" I was pretty amused when he actually did it...

(Kind of like in Eye of the Beholder, when Xanatos gave Fox the Eye and I got really grossed out. I thought I was just being silly... until I saw Eye of the Storm.)

As for when I realized that Fox was in love with David, it was in Her Brother's Keeper, since she was getting all gushy. You said that anyone who saw later episodes first is disqualified, but the only episode with Fox in it that I saw prior to the first season was when I saw her at the end of Possession (I missed the beginning), which should have tipped me off big time, except I didn't even notice her. I was too busy boggling over the fact that Owen had turned into a strange blond human. Oh, and I saw CoS before HBK, but I didn't catch on.

I would have loved to have seen the gargoyles swimming back to shore. They glide all the time, where's the fun in that?

I didn't think that Xanatos was lying about being in love with Fox, but I didn't necessarily think he was telling the truth, either. If he didn't care about her at all, he probably wouldn't have bothered getting her out, but "true love" probably seemed a bit excessive.

Blaise writes...

LEADER OF THE PACK
(vrOOM vrOOM! Sorry, couldn't resist!)

I thought this was a pretty good season premiere episode myself. Actually, my brother was watching it with me as well, the first time it aired, and he actually got into it a bit.
I was surprised to hear the narration in the new opening sequence. I do think the dramatic impact was greater when it was purely music, but then again...it's Keith David's voice. It worked.
The prison break had some great imagery and Coyote really steals the show here. Even though the voice was modulated, enough mannerisms were able to pass through (aided by the quips) to make my brother ID Coyote as Xanatos. Me, I wasn't so sure--just didn't seem quite his style. Of course at the end of the act, Coyote takes off his mask and reveals the distinctive Xanatos mug, so I gave my brother a point there. At the end of the episode, however, guess who felt vindicated.
I can't be sure if "Xanatos'" lust for revenge clued me in that he wasn't the REAL Xanatos, but I knew something was up.
Lexington's grudge worked for me. I also liked that it's Brooklyn who relates to him and tries to reach him. It made sense in light of their similar experiences, and coupled with his much sounder "strategic thinking" continued to show him as a growing leader. And I caught his reference to ENTER MACBETH. I always thought it was a nice touch.
But this is Lex's show. And I still LOVE that scene where he blows a hole through Coyote. Violent, but cool (and he does come across more dangerous here than where he's "hopping"--I agree with you there). Of course he gets his "priorities straight" at the end--predictably of course. But I think Thom's reading of Lex's final lines in the episode is some great acting.
Owen--Still knocking 'em dead. Impeccable mannerisms and definitely hints of the Puck.
Random observation: Durning Brook, Bronx, and Lex's fight with the Pack, the three of them are really taken out by only TWO Pack members--Dingo and Coyote. I just find it interesting.
The climactic fight with the Pack does seem to have trouble keeping track of who's fighting who. In fact, between escaping from the hold and the shot of Lex holding the gun and saying "Who's next?" I can't find Brooklyn anywhere. Bias again. Ignore that comment.
Anyway, the scenes with Coyote's head being gnawed on/kicked off/rocketing away are some of my favorite images in the episode (I can be real sick sometimes) and wouldn't you know it, those are the scenes Toon Disney gets rid of.
XANATOS TAG>> I knew Fox had the hots for Xanatos at the end of HER BROTHER'S KEEPER. I DID NOT know that Xanatos reciprocated those feelings. So I was pleasantly surprised, and I liked his line about revenge, robots and true love. I remember my brother voicing his hope that Xanatos was sincere about that part. Me, I don't know why...but I believed he loved her.

OTHER NOTES> You mentioned a "Hudson-game show scenlet" and Lex using "reflective mirrors." Care to elaborate?
Also, I always wondered why Elisa was only in one scene in the season premiere. Now I have a better idea.
Thanks!

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your "Leader of the Pack" ramble, and a very good one too. Thank you for it; it was really worth the wait.

Re Xanatos and Fox: I was certainly surprised to see at the end that the two were an item - I doubt that I'd even quite picked up on it in Fox's scene in "Her Brother's Keeper". I'm not certain as to my full response to it the first time that I saw it, but I know that it got my attention.

Hyena and Coyote: I've got to admit, I find that the most disturbing relationship in all of "Gargoyles" (come to think of it, even Jackal finds it disturbing, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redoing Goliath's features in his stone sleep). Definite proof that Hyena is strange. (That's probably why I never answered the "Why is Hyena smiling?" contest that you set up after "Her Brother's Keeper" - I'm not certain that I wanted to know the answer :)

I certainly agree with you about the bit where Lexington blasts the hole in Coyote; I also felt that he seemed ready to do the same thing to the human Pack members.

One touch that I like about Coyote, incidentally, is his name. On one level, it fits in with the Pack's habit of using "dog-names" for their members. However, it also fits a robot who starts off by masquerading as Xanatos, and who was designed that way by Xanatos himself, because of the "Coyote the Trickster" element (which you eventually brought into the series in "Cloud Fathers") - not only because Xanatos himself is a trickster, but also because Coyote himself was a trickster in "Leader of the Pack" by duping everyone into believing him Xanatos (everyone but Bronx, that is).

I hadn't given any real thought to Hyena's Santa Claus remark before, but now (in light of your earlier mention that you had a story planned for old St. Nick), I'm wondering if that was a subtle little foreshadowing reference like Elisa's mention of Loch Ness and UFOs in "The Edge".

Oh, and I might add that I also liked the way that Owen was handled in it (it's just like him to deliver the Pack's whereabouts to the gargs in the manner of an invitation to a social event), and Fox's mention of various philosophers that she reads (that's one thing that I like about "Gargoyles"; its very literate quality.

Bråndeewine writes...

*chuckles* I just ~LOVE~ the answer given to Gside on June 20, 2000. That really made my day! *chuckles again mumbling "sneaky-bastard"* .... *snickers as she walks out*

Bråndeewine writes...

Uhh....Sheesh, but you had a lot to go through to get here! LOL, I bet your eyes are red and stinging! Thanks for taking the time to deal with us annoying, curious poeple! :oP

Bråndeewine writes...

This isn't a question, but I had to comment on today. As everyone knows, it is Father's Day. I was reading your answers, that you let Erin and Ben give their input on. As I have said before, you are a great dad! Happy Father's Day!

Demonskrye writes...

Hi Greg!
Before I go into my comments proper, I just wanted to mention that I picked up the JLA Showcase for the sole purpose of reading your story. (Though, being a pretty well cerifiable comics fan, I did read the rest of it and enjoyed the majority of it.) I read in the archives that you had originally expected someone else to be penciling it. But judging from the appearance of "Le Trio", Seine, and Left Bank, I'm guessing somebody gave Mr. Jones some sort of reference. Anyways, it was a fun read and it's nice to see you finding a way to do some "Gargoyles" related stuff. Sort of.
Now the real post.
First off, I started watching "Gargoyles" during season 1. I got interested when I saw the trailer that preceded the "Nightmare Before Christmas" video and the various ads that ran in comic books. (It was a nice touch when Brooklyn repeated the "Stopping evil...stone cold!" catch phrase as well as every other one associated with the show in...."Gathering, Part One, I think.) But I actually ran across the show by accident. So the first episode I saw was actually "Awakening, Part Two". I think I caught on to what was going on pretty quickly in spite of missing part one. But after that, my sister and I both became loyal viewers. I only missed a few episodes - usually due to piano lessons - and I caught all of them on a later airing.

I think one things I noticed early on that might have clued me in to the fact that this show was going to be a bit different was Xanatos's line "Pay a man enough, and he'll walk barefoot through Hell." (Forgive me if I'm misquoting; I don't have my tapes with me.) Even though this was pretty much an isolated case, I think the fact that Xanatos was able to say that did strike me.

Thinking back now, I find it rather touching that Tom considered the gargoyles his friends after a single short conversation with them. Though he may just be picking up on their way of refering to one another.

Ah Demona. Definitely one of my top five favorite characters. As I missed Part One the first time around, I can't say if Demona's return was predictable or not. I did kind of figure she was going to be a villain, though I can't remember if I saw the D.A. preview comic before or after "Awakening". I do recall being a little saddened by the fact that the only female gargoyle (at the time) turned out to be a villain. Little did I know.
I admit that I'm biased due to my personal fondness for Demona, but I can't believe that there was nothing but schemeing in her head when she was reunited with Goliath. Yes, she does lie to him about how she survived the Wyvern massacre. But she's had a good thousand years to think about a plausable story to explain that. And granted she does want to win him over to her way of thinking. But I'm not sure that she had really considered the possibility that Goliath would turn her away. She probably thought that she had him just about on her side, since he would be seeing her alive again and still have the memory of the Wyvern betrayal pretty fresh in his mind. And after all those years of solitude, some part of Demona must have felt genuine joy at seeing Goliath again. And in this case, I think she would much more freely acknowledge that part of her than she would after "Awakening".

I got a hint at the fact that "Gargoyles" would be heavy on continuity when Elisa starts telling Goliath about the bright side of Manhattan and mentions "moms who sings their kids to sleep, like my mom used to sing to me". This implied that, in spite of her limited wardrobe, Elisa was not a standard cartoon character. She had not always been a twentysomething and she did have a family. Even though I didn't see them until "Deadly Games", it set me up for their appearance.

At this early stage, the Trio did seem a bit like typical cartoon teenagers with wings and tails. Within the context of the whole season, it does fit and the "Trio trilogy" defines them as individuals. But at the time, I was pretty much expecting the Ninja Turtles minus one.

I can't remember if I recognized Xanatos as the villain at that point. Demona either. Incidently, I'm sure you hear from Star Trek fans who watched the show and thought of Xanatos as Commander Riker. My experience was the opposite; I didn't start watching Star Trek much until after I was well into "Gargoyles". Consequently, I spent the first few episodes calling Riker "Mr. Xanatos"!

And I did appreciate the nice animation on the first awakening in Manhattan and the final fight scene. I love good characterization, but really cool action scenes certainly have their uses too.

And no, I didn't think Demona was dead. She had wings. She'd survived for a thousand years somehow. She was just too darn COOL to die.

That's all I can think of for now. I'll probably post what I thought about the rest of season one some other time. (In easily digested, one episode per post chunks) Thanks as always for your time.

And incidently, I expect nothing less than excellence from the "Bone" movie. Jeff Smith's got control of the project and he used to be an animator. So he has no excuse.

That's all. Really.

Warrioress writes...

I noticed something interesting about "Reawakenings". There's a scene where Brooklyn says "We live above a police station! What could happen?" And at the end of the next season, lo, the tower gets blown up by a missle from the Hunter's airship! What could happen, indeed.....! ;-)

Fanatic writes...

Greg, if you want to revive Gargoyles, you should probably stop quit with stuff that could offend the worlds major religions. Like for instance:
1)You said humans were using a variation of the gargoyle "Ashes to ashes or dust to dust" at their funerals.
This was a biblical reference to humans being created from the dust of the Earth, and a lot of people take everything the Bible says at face value. (I don't but I know people who do.
2)You once said the the Gargoyles Universe is ruled by fate, and God knows everything that will happen. This is a common religious mistake, God knows everything that COULD happen, not what WILL happen. Or at least thats what most ministers would say if you asked them.

Steve Soldwedel writes...

I realize that my composition is a little horrendous at points and, with you having been a teacher and editor, I apologize for the shoddiness of grammar in my post.

Steve Soldwedel writes...

Greg, this is in response to a rambling of yours from a while back that I just read in the archive; the one in which you spoke of vindication in a lawsuit over who'd created Gargoyles. You closed the post saying that you might seem petty. I just wanted to assure you that I don't think you're response to the situation is petty at all. As for him besmirching your honor, I think he did. As for you feeling vindicated, I think you're wholly justified. I write and draw, I've got my own little worlds with their own intricate characters. They're like my children, I know all about them, what makes them tick, who they are in more than just a face value sense; I also appreciate their predilection to define themselves as I write... Being a creator of things, of giving my ideas substance, I can empathize with the feeling of having been slighted by someone who claims that something of yours is actually theirs. The only thing we really have to call our own is the unquantifiable stuff in our minds. Alas when that stuff gets made into a tangible medium, it becomes quantifiable to many. Granted, you know that it will always be the ethereal stuff of your ideas, but having not created it themselves, the rank and file look at it as a commodity; unfortunately, people see commodities fit to be stolen. So, I guess the risk of quantifying and distributing your ideas to the masses is the potentiality to have some dishonorable charlatan try to steal it. I really respect that you pursued your vision and manifested it in a series as spectacular as Gargoyles. It still stands as my favorite show of all time. I hope that I'll be able to find the gumption to get my ideas out to the public; you're a bit of a hero to me in that aspect. And while my feeling that you're justifiable in feeling vindicated could be perceived as hero worship, I don't deify anyone. My empathy is just that, understanding. I wish you luck on all your future endeavors.

Todd Jensen writes...

I enjoyed your "Gargoyles vs. Batman" memo that you reprinted and sent to the list. It's nice to be able to read it at last.

While, as you admitted, some of the differences cited were probably not all that serious (as in the butler one you mentioned), I do think that it gives an effective explanation of the thematic differences between the two series, not only in the head one (the difference between how Bruce Wayne and Goliath have been affected by their tragedies), but also in your mentioning of how Gotham City and the gargoyles' New York differ from each other - which clearly reflects the nature of the leads as well (Gotham City's darkness reflecting Batman's own internal darkness, while New York's more upbeat tone reflecting Goliath's belief that, with a good amount of work, he and his clan can make things better).

(One other difference I might add: time period. The Gotham City of "Batman:TAS" is a surrealistic blend of different time periods - its technology is advanced enough to have computer disks and videotapes, but the clothing, architecture, and styles of the cars and airplanes all suggests something more 1930's to 1950's and color television hasn't even been introduced yet, apparently - while the New York of "Gargoyles" is more definitely set in the 1990's).

At any rate, thanks for posting it.

Alvaro writes...

Hello Greg:
My name is Alvaro, I am from Spain and I warn you that this message will be quite bad written even so I hope you answer.I am a I authenticate fanatic of your series and you are an it schemes.I almost have all the recorded chapters that have been emitted in españa but I doubt that they have been emitted all alone one to tell you that that you are a genius and that you continue with the series although that sees it difficult.Another thing Brooklyn is my favorite one although all are brilliant.I hope you are able to read the message well and that you answer me if you can.
my e-mail: zoom-alvaro@teleline.es

Ray Kremer writes...

My parents just took a trip to Ireland, and were surprised by the daylight hours. It's June, and the sun is up from 4:30 am to 10:00 pm. Scotland's even farther north than Ireland. I guess the Wyvern nights got pretty short in the summer, while being very long in the winter. Good thing Gargoyles don't mind the cold so much. Must've been nice for Goliath and crew to move to New York where the daylight periods don't vary quite as much.

Karen writes...

Dear Mr. Wiseman:
I find myself in a strange situation, but one perhaps you've heard about a hundred times before. I'm going on 37 years old and I LOVE Gargoyles! How I started watching I won't bore you with, suffice it to say I now MAKE my husband tape it on Toon Disney for me every night (to his credit, he rolls his eyes but does it - what a good boy!). Problem is, I don't even have any children so I can't say "Oh, you know, the kids like to watch it, and I sort of follow along to see what they're watching..." Nope. No excuses. I just plain love the show.
So, after all that, here's the question. I think the show was marketed towards the a 'young adults' market, but how many of the fans you accrued actually turned out to be my age? Did that surprise you, or were you hoping/expecting it? (I know, strictly speaking that's two questions, but I hope since they're variations on a theme...).
Thank you for your consideration.

Lexy (repost by Aris) writes...

And for my grand FANali:P

Comments on "Thrill of The Hunt" commentary:

I agree with you on how neat it was to see Xanatos actually sit his time out in prison rather then him escaping in the next episode. That holds true for the castle still NOT being the gargs to keep weather they kicked human hiney or not and later on how we kept Elisa on crutches AND gave her a permanent partner. Little details like that were always what made Gargoyles so realistic. Things didnt just Go away. Convinience is not a frase well reflected in the Gargoyles universe (IMO). I also loved this episode cuz..well LEX LEX LEX LEX..does that cover it? He was my favorite character from line One, "Not _afraid_ are you??" And I think that Thom's proformance was excellent, as you said, hats off to J.T. Again, as you pointed out already, it was really nice to see that type of scenario. Usually, the character in question thinks they are right and is wrong and learns the hard way. But in this case, Lex really _IS_ right and bad stuff still happens. We learn the lesson loud and clear at the end of the episode, but inbetween we are forced to really doubletake. Mabey Goliath was right at first, they should stick to Elisa and forget about it for the most part. I really liked that. Though..I kinda feel bad for poor Lex *LOL* It was his biggest moment in the show! Got to stand up to Goliath and give a great speech... poor guy pours his heart and sole into convincing his leader and his clan..and then gets his trust jerked around and his confidence kicked in the butt. *shakes head* ahh well. Now I wonder if he will ever go back to being as trusting with humans. Most likely not if you consider when they brough ColdStone to the Clock Tower. Lex leans in nearer to Goliath as they are gliding home and says something to the point of, "Are you sure we should trust him? He hasnt always been our friend. To invite him into our home, into our clan?". That shows right there that weather its a human or not..his attitude on trusting strangers has definatly changed. Though, the way these guys live, mabey its for the best *shrugs*.

I also got a kick out of your comment about how you were dissapointed with the animation. Your right, we were ALL spoiled with the magnificence that IS "Awakenings". It really was beautiful. But so were the other episodes. Some were drawn better then others, but when you get down to it Gargs had most of the best animation (if not all of it) out there at the time..maybe even now. (IMO) Well, thanks again for another great commentary..boy..episode seven is going to be interesting..Brooklyn seems to always be a hot topic.. *feels a twing of jelously for Lex* Not to say Brook isnt da garg..he _is_;)

Aris Katsaris writes...

Okay, I happen to have found in my hard disk the questions that had been lost in the crash... In the next few days I will try and repost as many of them as I can...

Mr. Thrugg (repost by Aris) writes...

I'll come out of the closet and admit that I'm a Trio fan, so this may be biased. I felt when Goliath, Angela, and Elisa went on their Avalon quest that the Trio back in Manhattan was very neglected(in terms of air time). This, I thought, was an obviously important time for them (even Hudson probably) as they are finally separated from Goliath. I thought the episode Kingdom wasn't enough to display the changes I felt in them after Goliath returned. What do you think?

Blaise writes...

I like your ramble on the Wind Ceremony. It sounds quite beautiful. It also feels extremely relevant to me because as of this writing it's been nearly 3 weeks since the death of my aunt. Her own ashes were scattered from a tackle-box into a river--she always loved fishing.

Probably a silly question, but would you have shown the Wind Ceremony in the series?

Todd Jensen writes...

Thanks for the Wind Ceremony ramble, Greg. It struck me as another fine example of one of the best qualities of "Gargoyles" (in my opinion): the care that went into creating the gargoyles as an actual race with their own customs and way of life.