Donald writes...

You know, of all the types of Time Travel stories there are, the "working paradox", as you put it, is my favorite. However, it does seem that many people, like Vashkoda, have fundamental difficulties grasping the one defining aspect of the concept.

Time is not linear. All of time exists as one unit...there is no beginning and no end. Think of it as a multi-faceted jewel, of which we can only see one facet at a time. The whole jewel is already there, but it is a limit of our perception that makes us think time is linear.

I suppose your love of the working paradox is why you like the first Terminator but not the sequel. I feel the same way. It is probably one of the more famous of the working paradox stories. Another good example is The Philadelphia Experiment, which was more purely focused on the concept.

In case you're wondering, the multi-faceted jewel explanation comes from Alan Moore's Watchmen, which did not really have a time travel element to it, but the roots of the concept were there with the Dr. Manhattan character's ability to perceive all of time within his existence.

Of course, that idea harkens back to poor old Billy Pilgrim in Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five. Of course, that's not really a time travel story either, but it does help explain the concept a bit.

Hope I haven't bored everyone ;-)

Melissa writes...

Hey Greg,

Just a few small comments on your ramble on "Vows".

Although I think this was a great episode and it had amazing dialogue moments, I thought that after seeing it a few times it became boring and I was less interested in it. I was definitely more "into" the second half of the episode when it got to conversations held by the old and young Goliath and Demona. The dialogue between all of them just seemed to fit so well and flowed beautifully.

I did notice the change in size of the Gate but I just thought of it as being bigger in human hands and smaller in the gargoyle's hands because of size difference between gargoyles and humans.

I also thought that Elisa (my favorite character) was acting way out of hand. I thought it was out of character for her to act so jealous. It wasn't even that, it just looked like she had PMS. I kept yelling at the tv (to Elisa) to back off his case!

Alright...I'm done.

Aris Katsaris writes...

You said: <<O.K. Thanks. So death was NEVER personified?
Certainly Uranos was personified in the mythology, right? And Eros, of course. >>

Umm, I'm not certain what exactly it is you mean by "personification", so let me be a bit more elaborate.

Pretty much *everything* was personified as a deity, including abstractions like "Victory"-Nike, "Peace"-Eirene, "Justice"-Dike, "Violence"-Bia, "Night"-Nyx, "Sleep"-Hypnos, etc. The name is the concept is the deity...

However most of these deities never seemed to have a solid existence in stories besides their very function - unlike gods and goddesses like Athena, Hades, Hermes, Thetis, Callisto, etc, who very clearly were "persons" with a history and personalities that was separate from their specific roles...

Uranus was ofcourse personified - he was a person who was defeated and castrated by Cronos, etc, etc. And in fact he was probably personified so much that the meaning of his name being "sky" was probably almost forgotten, and Zeus was considered the god whose province was the sky, etc.

Eros is a weird case: The story which "personified" him as the son of Aphrodite and the lover of Psyche, was written very late, 2nd century AD I think, by a Roman writer. In that one he was obviously a seperate person, "personified" with any definition one can come up with.

But before that, Eros seems to have been much more of an abstraction, one of the very first gods who was birthed by Chaos: For if there had been no Eros (no love) later gods (like Gaia and Uranus, or Cronos and Rhea, or Zeus and Hera) could not have loved each other. More of a force, less of a person.

Now Death-"Thanatos" was ofcourse personified like anything else: he's supposed to be the son of Night, and the older brother of Sleep (Hypnos). But besides that, he seems to me to be much more of an abstraction like Nike, and less of a person like Athena. He's referred to as a person occasionally (Zeus sends Hypnos and Thanatos to carry the body of Sarpedon with honour away from Troy, I think that Hercules is supposed to have wrestled with Thanatos in one case) but those two are pretty much the only occasions I remember him be a person...

I don't know if the above helped clarify or confuse...

Kalafarski writes...

A couple comments on your Vows ramble....

As I've said in a couple of posts about the Phoenix Gate before, I love the way you handle time travel. It just works so perfectly.

But here's what I found interesting. Demona has brought her past self nineteen years into the future. She shows her that her home has been invaded, her clan has been betrayed, her brothers and sisters are dead. And her true love has been turned to stone.

I thought it was interesting that Demona doesn't try to convince her younger self that Goliath is naive, too trusting of humans, or foolish. She doesn't even try to tell her that all this destruction will be Goliath's fault. Instead, she plays off of young Demona's love for Goliath, blaming the humans for what has happened to him. But it's not like the humans are the only ones old Demona blames in her own head right now. Goliath is clearly there. "Do not share it with....do not share it!"

So my question is, why does Demona do this? Is she certain that, knowing how she herself thought 1000 years ago, her younger self would never turn away from Goliath? Or is it that Demona's plan is to use her past self's own "foolish trust" in Goliath to serve her own ends?

Jon writes...

Well, now that I've posted once... :)

After reading your ramble on Vows, I wanted to comment a bit about it. It is an excellent episode, and one of the things I noticed is that Goliath sure gets the crud beat out of him in this one, first by Xanatos at the Golden Cup, and then by Demona after he barges in on her reunion with her younger self. Both animation sequences showed Goliath bleeding from the mouth after various blows. For some reason, that just awed me (and still does). This is a cartoon where the "hero" gets hurt!! I was always ridiulously amazed and pleased by this, maybe because it is so unusual to have that level of maturity and realism incorporated into a cartoon.

The animation sequence where Goliath and Demona are flying down to the watch the wedding is just terrific, really gives a sense of the power of movement of the gargoyles.

I never thought about Demona's overly excited greeting to Goliath that we see at the beginning and end of the episode was because she was just shook up about the encounter with the future Goliath. Very sophisticated.

I was always very amused at the concept of Goliath as Best Man for Xanatos. Not only is it ironic given their history, it's just funny to see Goliath in a role that is so "human".

I had a few questions, too:
1) The older Demona tells her younger self "Do not share it [the Gate] with... Do not share it!" Who did she mean her younger self shouldn't share it with? You may have said this before, sorry if I missed it.

2) Was the scene where Owen offers Goliath a bow tie cut during production (you mentioned it in the memo, but, unfortunately, it's not in the show)?

3) Did the younger Demona have any reservations about stealing the Gate? I'm still a bit shocked that the she stole it so willingly. While I know that this sort of foreshadows her personality to come, I'm still surprised she didn't have a bit more moral fiber at the time. Maybe she was living in fear of what the arch mage would do to her if she failed? Or perhaps she just didn't place any value in the trinkets or possessions of the worthless humans?

4) Was Demona's abuse by the Arch-mage intended to be a primary motivation for her general hatred towards humans? Early in her life she was mistreated by a cruel human that was more powerful than herself, and her self-loathing at carrying out his evil little errands could very easily have created a guilt cycle that resulted in a desire to kill ALL humans, as sort of a payback for what the Arch-mage did. All of which was compounded multifold by the events of the massacre, but still, her early suspicion/dislike of humans could have stemmed solely or at least primarily from the abuse of the Arch-mage. Ok, I'll stop trying to psychoanalyze Demona. But she's so FASCINATING....

Thanks!

Ed writes...

'VOWS' - what an episode. So many twists, so much drama, and some brilliant comedy from the Xanatos family. The thing that always occurred to me when watching this is: who on earth in Shari Goodharz? She only wrote the one episode that I recall and yet this is one of my favourites, if not my favourite outright. And yet she never did anything else. I guess looking at your outline she had a lot of dialogue to work in but even so, it was pretty damn good.

Actually, it always seemed like quite an intense episode to put before a multi-part story. I didn't watch it in order properly until I knew the whole season ('CITY OF STONE' aired at the beginning of the season here in two back-to-back weekends: accompanied with some stunning preview adverts of Demona blasting the stone humans).

Just one reply:

You said…
"But the gate stays open long enough for him to go with. Did it ever occur to her to go somewhen else other than 994? I guess part of it could be chalked up to dim memory. It was over a thousand years ago. And Demona lived through that 1000 years. Even for a very significant event in her life, it must still be very hazy."

Apart from the shock factor of the castle still burning (in this episode) and Goliath in stone, I think this would have meant most to Demona. But another possible explanation is in your outline:
"But choosing requires incredible concentration. Otherwise, the chooser's emotional or mental whim of the moment may cause the gate to drop everyone off at Burger King instead of Fort Knox."

Seeing as how Demona claims to have a clear memory of Goliath's 'inspirational' presumably this is the thought that would have dragged her to 994.

I really like your explanation of the Gate's changing size as being due to its 'time valve' function. Was this something you ever planned to develop or at least mention out loud in the series? I guess we'd get some hints from what you've told us about 'TIMEDANCER' so far.

Todd Jensen writes...

One other interesting feature about "Vows" that I forgot to mention in my ramble last night. When Goliath is talking to Hudson in 975, he indicates that he is afraid that Xanatos went back in time to 10th century Castle Wyvern to plot some sort of skullduggery against the clan then. But in fact, it turns out that Xanatos's real purpose for being there is to receive the coins from Prince Malcolm, not because of the gargoyles, and that it's merely a coincidence (insomuch as anything in the Gargoyles Universe can be considered a coincidence) that he received those coins at the old home of Goliath and his clan.

I mention this because it brings up one of the interesting features of Xanatos that makes him different from the conventional "main villain" in an animated series. Most such "main villains" focus their schemes almost exclusively on settling their feud with the protagonists, to such an extent that it often results in the rest of their objectives failing because they let themselves get sidetracked by their obsession. But Xanatos didn't. A lot of his schemes turned out to be, from his own perspective, only marginally involving the gargoyles, while really focused in a different direction ("Leader of the Pack" is a good example of this, where it turns out that Xanatos's real interest was in getting Fox out of prison rather than in defeating the gargoyles), and in fact, he often accomplishes a lot of his objectives (the ones that didn't involve capturing Goliath and Co. - or, later on, becoming immortal). Other antagonists in the series do strike me as thoroughly capable of letting themselves get sidetracked by the feud to the detriment of their other goals (Demona, the Archmage, and the Pack spring immediately to mind in such a category), but Xanatos seemed more inclined to focus his attention elsewhere than on the clan.

At the same time, of course, Goliath always seemed ready to take an angle towards Xanatos as though he really was the "stereotyped master-villain" above, automatically assuming that Xanatos's schemes were directed towards the gargoyles (as per the case above) or even initially thinking that he was behind somebody else's scheme (as when he initially believed that it was Xanatos rather than Macbeth who stole the Scrolls of Merlin). That helped make Xanatos's break with "cartoon tradition" all the more noteworthy, in having Goliath's perception of Xanatos being closer to how such a conventional villain acted than Xanatos in person actually was.

Revel writes...

Regarding your "Vows" ramble

I think More's the pitty is kind of like Ignorance is bliss. You've just heard it so many times no one knows who origninally said it.
(my opinion of course)

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble/reply to your ramble on "Vows".

I very much liked this one. We got the time travel story at last (as I mentioned in my ramble/reply for "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", I'd read that there was going to be time travel in the second season of "Gargoyles", but initially mistakenly believed that it would be in the "Lighthouse" episode because of the "Sea of Time" part of the title). I've always been fond of time travel stories, particularly ones sending the characters into the historical past, and this one I very much enjoyed, particularly since it led to more "10th century Castle Wyvern scenes" (one of my favorite parts of the series). I also noticed the care used (both here and throughout "Gargoyles") with how time travel doesn't change history but is simply part of the already extant history (which makes all the more sense to me since I've been working on a fantasy novel for some time now, begun before "Gargoyles" ever came out, which made similar use of time travel, with even a time loop or two similar to those in "Avalon Part Two" and "M.I.A." - which helped me understand those episodes better, but that's another story). Certainly that kind of time travel helps make certain that there's no cheating.

I also liked seeing the Archmage again, and hearing the mention of the Eye of Odin (without realizing the full significance of that part, though). One interesting piece in this episode is that Hudson seems to already suspect, by 975, the Archmage's true nature (given the bit where he comes to the aid of Young Demona near the end).

I was half-expecting the Hudson of 1995 to mention Goliath's showing up in 975 at the end, after Goliath returned to the clock tower; he didn't, but his behavior in the modern day does make more sense in light of his meeting the present-day Goliath back in 975.

I learned about the "King Lear" quote from a friend, and was amused to discover that in its original place in the play, it was spoken by Lear to his daughters Goneril and Regan; trust Xanatos to reverse the parent/child roles when he quoted it! :)

I was very interested to see Xanatos wearing an Illuminati pin and to have the Society's existence confirmed (doubly so with the Norman Ambassador). I can definitely remember what I thought upon seeing that bit: "I wonder what Matt would say if he could see this."

And yes, I was definitely surprised to see Xanatos getting married. (Maybe all the more so since the main antagonist of the aforementioned fantasy novel has some Xanatosian qualities - coincidental, since his basic character was worked out before "Gargoyles" ever came out - but is a very solitary figure, whom I definitely can't imagine ever developing genuine feelings of the sort that Xanatos had for Fox). Very daring, I've got to agree.

One interesting feature about Young Demona's visit to 994 (incidentally, that means that there were *three* Demonas existing simultaneously at that moment, the Demona of 975, of 994, and of 1995 - good thing that the 994-Demona didn't show up or things could really have gotten confusing:) is that she learns about the future Wyvern Massacre, which probably subtly influenced her towards eventually working with the Captain to betray the humans. It's been suspected by many fans that Young Demona might have believed that it was the humans native to the castle who carried out the massacre (note that 1995-Demona never says that it was an outside enemy who destroyed the clan - or, for that matter, that the reason why Goliath was turned to stone was because he begged the Magus to do it), so in her scheming with the Captain to avert the prophecy, she actually helped fulfill it. (A time-honored literary concept, of course, going back at least to Sophocles' "Oedipus Rex" where similarly Laius and Oedipus's very efforts to prevent Oedipus's prophecied destiny of killing his father and marrying his mother actually help bring that destiny about). A very chilling concept.

I've seen the phrase "more's the pity" used a few times in works that I know that I've read before "Gargoyles", and even used the phrase at least once in something that I wrote before "Gargoyles" ever premiered, but I've no idea myself where it comes from. Maybe it's one of those general phrases with no single originator.

At any rate, I enjoyed the rambling - and am looking forward to the comments on "City of Stone".

Todd Jensen writes...

I just read your two recently-posted memos for "Eye of the Beholder" and "Vows". Thank you for posting them (and I'm looking forward to the "Vows" ramble/review).

These inspired three comments, which I thought that I'd post (though all three separately, of course).

This first comment is on the "Eye of the Beholder" memo. One thing that stood out to me is that in the memo, Xanatos mentions that legend had it that the Eye of Odin was literally that, but this doesn't pop up in the actual episode. Actually, I'm glad that it didn't, because I feel that it made the impact of Odin showing up to claim the Eye in "Eye of the Storm" more dramatic as a result. Up until that episode ("Eye of the Storm") aired, I'd assumed that the Eye was just given a fancy name borrowed from Norse mythology, so it was more of a surprise when it turned out to be the actual eye that Odin gave up to Mimir than it would if Xanatos had mentioned rumors about that in "Eye of the Beholder".

Todd Jensen writes...

A bit of a ramble on the Hunters, particularly the Canmore trio, inspired in part by your answer to my last question about them.

One interesting element that becomes apparent when you put "City of Stone" and "Hunter's Moon" together is that the Hunters did, oddly enough, become somewhat more likable over the centuries.

The initial three Hunters depicted in "City of Stone", Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore, all struck me as among the nastier villains in "Gargoyles", with very little in the way of redeeming features. Gillecomgain might have had a bit of sympathy from us (the audience), given Demona's wanton attack upon him when he was a boy. (I believe that it was more a deliberate act of hatred than a matter of self-defense, given her "That'll teach you humans to betray us" remark, something that better fits a calculated action). But then he quickly loses that by not only vowing revenge upon her entire race rather than just Demona, punishing the innocent alongside the guilty, but also willingly becoming Duncan's hired assassin by 1020, and also willingly entering into a loveless marriage with Gruoch twelve years later. Duncan was a suspicious tyrant ready to murder anybody whom he even suspected might threaten his claim to the throne, even when that person in question was innocent of such designs (as Findlaech and Macbeth both clearly were) and Canmore clearly followed in his father's footsteps; while both didn't like gargoyles much, it does seem that a lot of their persecution of the gargs stemmed from the fact that they were Macbeth's allies.

But when we get to the modern-day Canmores of "Hunter's Moon", the "powermonger" angle has clearly gone. Apart from their war on the gargoyles, the Canmores come across as quite sympathetic, more like basically decent people trapped by a horrible family tradition. Jason clearly has enough nobility in him for Elisa to develop genuine feelings for him, and he for her. The Canmores of "Hunter's Moon" are in the wrong, but they come across more as misguided than as truly villainous. Which makes them all the more into tragic figures, particularly Jason and Jon in their different ways (Jason learns the error of his ways in time, but loses the use of his legs; Jon half-realizes that what his family has been doing is wrong and almost turns aside from the path, but in the end yields to it in his weakness and undergoes the transformation into Castaway). It's one of the elements, in my opinion, that makes "Hunter's Moon" so effective.

Todd Jensen writes...

Note to Sapphire about the "Gargoyles/Buffy" crossover possibility:

While my thoughts on this one probably count less than Greg's (he's the creator of the series; I'm just one of the fans), I do think that such a crossover, while in some ways more feasible than, say, "Gargoyles/Batman" or "Gargoyles/Superman", does have a few snags to be overcome. One is legal ownership (Disney owns "Gargoyles", WB "Buffy"). Another is geography (Buffy and Co. live on the West Coast, the gargoyles on the East Coast).

(Of course, there's no danger as yet of "Gargoyles Universe" vampires being incompatible with the Buffyverse, since all that we know about "Gargoyles Universe" vampires is that they're vulnerable to silver - Princess Katharine mentions this in "Ill Met By Moonlight" - which doesn't contradict any statements about vampires in "Buffy").

But as I said, I don't view such a crossover as something all that likely for the near future, myself.

evil circus midget writes...

I don't really have a question..I just want to say that this is really cool how you take the time to answer all these questions...even the dumb ones. So thank you.

Tim writes...

Eye of the Beholder: Always loved this episode, from Fox's transformation scenes, to Xanatos's spilled milk and Plan D, E and F, to Owen's smile and the revelations of the Eye of Odin. One question: What WAS that sound of Fox's roaring at the end of the episode when she's transforming back to herself? If you turn your volume up it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and it is VERY disturbing. Great sound! Just wondering if you knew what that sound was.

Can't wait until you cover City of Stone!

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of unofficial comment/reply to Sapphire's question about why some gargoyles (such as Yama) might want to reveal themselves to the human world. Of course, I believe that Greg has the final say here, but I thought that I'd give my thoughts on this topic (carefully staying within the rules for submitting questions such as "don't provide ideas") because it interests me.

While the existence of gargoyle-haters such as Castaway out there does make the gargoyles' secrecy a sensible decision, at the same time, there does seem to be something to the notion of the gargoyles making themselves public. For one thing, the main reason why humans hate gargoyles so much is because they're afraid of them, and the reason why they're afraid of the gargoyles is because they know so little about them, and so it becomes easier for them to be convinced, either by the demagoguery of others such as Castaway or by their own fears, that the gargoyles are a danger to them and have to be contained or destroyed. So one could argue that as long as the gargoyles take the route of lying low and hiding, they make it easy for the hatred and fear to continue, and that the only way that they can reverse this trend is to make themselves public, tell their side of the story to the humans, let them know the truth. The gargoyles' secrecy, in a way, plays directly into the hands of people like Castaway, for it keeps the humans ignorant of what this race is really like and therefore makes things easier for the hatemongers.

I'm enough of a realist to admit that even if the gargoyles did give some sort of public press conference announcing themselves and their mission of "protect the innocent" to the world, a la Superman, it wouldn't be likely to make the hatred and intolerance go away just like that. But it could certainly help to weaken their foundations at least a little.

(Not that I can truly blame Goliath and his clan for choosing the path of secrecy up until the destruction of the clock tower; they had reasons enough from their own experience to be cautious - between their treatment by the humans in 994 and their betrayal by first Xanatos and then the Pack so soon after awakening - not to mention that the preference of their chief human confidante, Elisa, to keep them a secret must have influenced them here as well).

Blaise writes...

EYE OF THE BEHOLDER

Elisa in a Belle gown dancing with Goliath--always the first image in my mind when this ep is mentioned.

I was quite surprised (and delighted) by the display of Xanatos's feelings for Fox in this episode. I mean, the beginning proposal to Fox literally sounds like a BUSINESS proposal, and it just kills me every time I watch that scene. The whole growth of Xanatos throughout this episode--his facial expressions and attempts to save Fox--is really a highlight of the series. A show in which the "BIG BAD GUY" is not all that bad. Of course, he naturally denies having any traits that could even remotely be considered "noble" in his character, and it leads to that wonderful final exchange with Owen.

Goliath himself actually gets a couple of jabs in at Xanatos' expense. "I don't suppose you have a Plan D?" I just love that line. That's probably...the second joke he's told in the series.

Of course, I love the whole Halloween block party. It's great to see the Trio finally being able to interact with the humans without the latter running away in fear. Still, I like how in their initial shot at the block party you can see the Trio are still a bit wary.
So Keith David's the voice of the witch! I always wondered who did that voice. I mean, that's one of the funniest moments in the episode--here comes this haggard witch that speaks in a deep male voice. Just totally catches you off guard.
Goliath and Elisa, one of the great couples of our time. I might as well say this now and get it out of the way--I think Elisa looked DAMN FINE in that costume. MAN that was good. When she had her gun I wondered where she had pulled it from, and I was glad when I saw the holster/garter.

As for the Eye and the Werefox--I never dreamed that the Eye had magical properties when I saw it in THE EDGE. Heck, I never expected to see it again. This added another dimension to it. The transformations to and from Werefox are terrific, and I love the animators' work on it. Some of the best character movement in the series. Being the dense person I am, I didn't entirely get all of Fox's internal conflict in the first few viewings. It's more clear to me now, though. Frankly, I'm glad that you guys were able to take the realistic approach and have Fox be naked when she changed back to human form.

On the subject of getting away with things, I was surprised that the engagment happend, myself, let alone that it panned out the way it did. Then again, by the time OUTFOXED came around, I had gained enough respect for the series to not be too terribly surprised that Fox was expecting.
Still, how many series have the villain get married?

An episode that I always enjoy watching.

Todd Jensen writes...

Another "rambling" on my part, this time on Future Tense and its relationship to the actual events in the gargoyles' lives after the Avalon World Tour. As we all know, one of the big questions in the fandom is how much the events in "Future Tense" reflect the actual future in the Gargoyles Universe, thanks both to the fulfillment of two of them (in a way) before "The Journey" and Puck's little "Was it a dream or a prophecy?" remark (although I think that that line of his was done just to tease Goliath).

Now, two "prophecies" in "Future Tense" were fulfilled. Xanatos and Fox did have a son named Alexander Fox Xanatos, and the clock tower was destroyed. But I'm not so certain that either of these are quite so significant. As Owen, Puck would obviously know what the Xanatoses were planning to name their baby, after all. As for the clock tower, the destruction of the gargoyles' home would be a natural part of any "gloom-and-doom" scenario for them (not to mention that in the "Future Tense Universe", the clock tower would more likely have been destroyed by Xanatos or Lexington masquerading as Xanatos, rather than by the Canmores - whose existence Puck might not even have been aware of at that point).

Two "prophecies" that seem to be on their way to fulfillment in the future, based on your earlier MasterPlan comments, are the Ultra-Pack and the forty-year separation of Brooklyn and Goliath (brought about by the Avalon World Tour in the "Future Tense Universe", by Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures in the actual Gargoyles Universe). The first of these, of course, can again be easily explained: the Pack getting upgraded again does strike me as something that anyone who had paid close enough attention to their past career could have expected. The 40 years timedancing is a bit more of a poser, but I imagine that if you make enough statements about the future, a few are going to turn out correct, and the only real similarity is the "40 years" element (and the number forty has long held a certain symbolic significance, anyway - the rain that caused Noah's Flood lasted for forty days, the Israelites under Moses spent forty years wandering in the wilderness, etc.).

(The irony is that Brooklyn's Timedancing adventures would have to be the consequence of Puck's whole "Future Tense" vision to begin with, since they came about because Goliath threw the Phoenix Gate away into the Time-stream, which he did because of the "Future Tense" vision; a good case of a self-fulfilling prophecy).

(I've also spotted a possible fifth "twisted fulfillment" of a "Future Tense" event in the outline for "Gargoyles 2198" that you posted, but I'll wait until after the contest is over before naming it and asking you if you'd intended it as such - you can, of course, in the interim, have the fun of guessing which part of "Gargoyles 2198" I had in mind when I wrote this paragraph :)

And, of course, the way that things were going by the end of the series (at least by the end of "The Journey"), I think that we can safely conclude that Xanatos isn't going to declare war on the gargoyles, kill Hudson at the cost of his own life, drive the surviving members of the clan into the Labyrinth, and take over New York (to be succeeded after his death by a traitorous Lexington using him for a facade).

At least, that's my own two cents' worth on the relevance of "Future Tense" to the future of the Gargoyles Universe.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a question on Nokkar, but don't worry; it's about him as portrayed in "Sentinel" and isn't "Gargoyles 2198"-linked.

I've noticed that a great many "Gargoyles" fans have displayed a low opinion of Nokkar as a character because of his treatment of the gargoyles, mistaking them for spies for the Space-Spawn and refusing (until almost the last moment) to reconsider; they've considered him a stubborn fool. While I can't approve myself of Nokkar's attitude of "I've already made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts" myself, I have wondered from time to time if we haven't been doing him something of an injustice.

The big element in this pondering is this question that I find it's occasionally useful to ask ourselves regarding those enemies of the gargoyles who fought against them because they believed the gargs to be evil monsters; would we have felt the same way about these people if the gargoyles really were a race of evil demons? In some cases, my answer would have been "Yes". I would have felt the same way about the Pack in "The Thrill of the Hunt", for example, or Castaway in "The Journey", because their reasons for going after the gargoyles were ignoble ones (the Pack motivated by a desire for simple excitement, Castaway by hatred and a desire for revenge) rather than for the purpose of protecting the community, and because they were willing to endanger innocent bystanders in a very ruthless fashion to achieve their goals.

But with Nokkar, my response is different. For one thing, he really does come across in "Sentinel" as genuinely concerned for the well-being of the inhabitants of the planet that he's been assigned to protect. He clearly shows concern for Elisa - he immediately asks her, after bringing Goliath down, if she's all right, and trusts her enough, in fact, to give her the personal guided tour of his spaceship. When Elisa finally, out of instinct, sides with the gargoyles and comes to their rescue, Nokkar still does whatever he can to treat her gently, and asks her (and actually listens) why she insists on risking her own life to protect them. (He also mentions having had a good relationship with the original inhabitants of Easter Island who built the moai statues of him, and seems willing enough to make friends with the two archaeologists and Dr. Arnada at the end of the story and share his mission with them). Indication enough that he was no simple mercenary but someone with a genuine protector instinct.

As for his treatment of the gargoyles - again, it wouldn't have hurt for him to have kept an open mind. But to return to my original point, would I have felt the same way about the guy if Goliath, Angela, and Bronx really had been an advance scouting party for the Space-Spawn? I will admit that I wouldn't. Even when Nokkar was about to execute them, he made it clear that a) he was doing this because the laws of his people forbade Sentinels to take prisoners and b) he was going to give them as merciful and painless a death as possible. (And, also to be perfectly fair to the guy, what proof did the gargoyles have to offer him that they weren't enemy aliens? To the best of my knowledge, none).

So this consideration does lead me to wonder whether we may not have done Nokkar a bit of an injustice in how we viewed his actions in "Sentinel". At any rate, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the matter.

Maria writes...

Hmm, in answer to your question, I honestly can't remembre
where I saw the word 'convenient' posted. I am pretty sure you had said it though. Someone had asked a question and you had said something along the lines of 'adoption probably being more convenient'. And, of course, that is probably true. I am certain that many of the fans, myself included - would be happy to just see Goliath and Elisa tie the not basically and at last rise a family. That in and of itself would be a nice closure to the romance to, even though it would forever continue.
Also, it strikes me as strange that G & E would break up so soon after 'Hunters Moon' and then have a double date like that following Halloween. But, someone in the comment room mentioned that 'Hunters Moon' had fallen on the 26th of October in 1996 - correct? So wouldn't the Halloween date take place in '97? And if so, why so long?
I know the general outline of what they'll go through and decide, having discussed their relationship and then find it a little too difficult. (But would that just be Elisa who feels that way, or would it be Goliath too?)
Somehow, I get the impression that they wouldn't break up for that long at all. But have we misunderstood the time line somehow? And wouldn't things work out to where they might have a commitment ceremony of sorts sooner than expected? It almost seems strange for them to want to drag it out, and yet at the same time, I can see why they would. Although they would be back together, they might still be afraid of total commitment. . .for obvious reasons. No kids.
But, how long exactly would thier triangle last? I don't think that Goliath would enjoy a date with Delilah, and she might in turn find it a bit odd to go out with the one who is Thailog's 'father' basically.
Anyway, you gave some good points and I do agree. I just have my own views too. Which we all do. And that is important so long as we don't obscure it for someone else or twist it around. And it's always important to be loved for who we are and to not judge others when it isn't our place. If I have come off judgemental - which I doubt I have - then I do apologize. (I apologize WAY too much! ^_^)
Anyway, good points.
Thanks. :)

zippysquir@aol.com writes...

...I don't think Goliath is the kind of guy who ranks his favorites.

I'm not either really.

----------->William Shakespeare

demona writes...

greg i have my one clan and we will bring them back will u help us

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your "Eye of the Beholder" piece. Oddly enough, I watched that same episode just a few days ago (I like to watch my tape of it every Halloween, one of three "Gargoyles" episodes that I watch on tape for annual holidays. The other two are "Sanctuary" for Valentine's Day and "The Hound of Ulster" for St. Patrick's Day).

This episode I very much enjoyed. I will confess that, even though I'm quite fond of Norse mythology, I never suspected, even after the revelation that the Eye of Odin was a magical artifact, that it was literally that (the eye that Odin gave up for a drink from Mimir's well) - in fact, I never even thought along those lines until "Eye of the Storm" came out. But the revelation that it was magical got my attention.

I also noticed the development for Xanatos here, how he proposes to Fox in the manner of a business proposition, particularly his reasons, but then in the course of the episode realizes that he is in love with her. (I particularly caught the very worried expression on his face after his "Spilt milk").

I caught the "Beauty and the Beast" reference with Goliath and Elisa, but I will confess here that I wasn't seriously imagining anything going on between them at the time. (Kind of embarrassing in hindsight, I must admit).

I caught the significance of the trio's costumes (including Lexington as a pilot being a reference back to "Her Brother's Keeper") - and I've got to agree with you that Broadway's belch was probably the crudest sound effect that "Gargoyles" ever had :)

And of course, the exchange at the end between Goliath and Xanatos that you quoted ("So now you know my weakness." "Only you would regard love as a weakness.") is one of my favorite moments in the series. (And I also very much like the last shot being of Owen smiling as he watches).

John writes...

Hi Greg,
Now here comes a verry wicked question: What did you think, is the best point to end the show? I know, and I hope, that you get the show back someday, but someday it has to end...
CU, John

Blaise writes...

THE SILVER FALCON

I finally have some time to comment on this.

Originally I wasn't all that impressed with this ep--maybe because it only had one gargoyle (Broadway) in it, but then again THE MIRROR is a tough act to follow.

Over time, however, I've come to appreciate it a lot more.
The little touches--Broadway's reading, Elisa keeping her gun locked up, Matt looking for the Illuminati--were things I picked up on and appreciated right away, but the dynamic between Elisa and Broadway started to grow on me over the repeated viewings.

I didn't know that Benton and DD were one and the same when I first saw the episode until the final revelation. But I LOVED it! I thought it was just a wonderful pay-off, and so was the marbles in the bag.

I didn't think Hacker would be that important a character in later episodes (it was still early in the 2nd season, yet), but I liked that the characters had backgrounds and past relationships that had repercussions on the present.

Yeah, it's a pity that the "guy in the trench-coat" was immediately recognizable as Broadway. That extra suspense might have been real sweet.

Since you're putting up some fav quotes here's one of mine. Broadway's hit Dracon with the fire escape (OUCH!) and is quoting his favorite movie, and all Dracon can say is "Not you guys again!" I don't know why--maybe it's Richard Greico's (sp?) voice acting--but that line just makes me laugh every time.

All in all, an enjoyable ep, and a good beginning for Cary Bates, a name I'd come to find familiar in the closing credits of GARGOYLES.

Todd Jensen writes...

Note to Aris: Good point, and I certainly never thought that the similarities between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men" were based on anything other than the same theme. But I was raising the question as to whether anybody at Disney had that fear, in light of the documented fear that some of them had that "Gargoyles" might be perceived as a "Batman"-rip-off. (Which fear was strong enough to lead to Greg producing that short essay on the differences between "Gargoyles" and "Batman:TAS").

Todd Jensen writes...

Ah, a ramble on "The Silver Falcon" at last - and it was worth the wait, too.

Looking back on the episode, the main thing that I can remember from the first time that I watched it was a bit of initial disappointment when it turned out that what Matt (and, after him, Elisa and Broadway) had stumbled upon wasn't actually an Illuminati scheme but Dracon going after some stolen jewels; I was very much intrigued with the Illuminati, after all. But I think that the story worked out nicely enough to make up for that, in that it was very atmospheric, with some nice twists as well, and Elisa and Broadway getting to both show some real detective-instincts in them.

And I certainly was surprised when it turned out that Benton and Dominic Dracon were the same person; I hadn't been expecting that. (Although, looking back on that episode, the revelation at the end puts an interesting twist on Benton's complimentary description of DD in the photo :)

One of the big impressions that this episode made on me, by the way, was the dizzying heights at the skyscraper in the climax; I certainly didn't envy Elisa's situation. (I've always had a poor head for heights, myself).

VF writes...

I really admire the patience and dedication of longtime fans and admirers (including yourself) of "Gargoyles." I only discovered the show for myself (with the help of my two young daughters) a bit more than a year ago, and I KEEP hoping that "some day" will come already and new episodes can be made.

Folks can say what they want about Toon Disney, but that's how my daughters found it and shared it with me, so the channel is at least providing the opportunity for a few new viewers to discover the show.

It's clear from watching the series, and then finding this Web site and learning more about the behind-the-scenes processes involved in its making, that there were a lot of thoughtful, creative, talented people behind it. Your ideas about characterization and story continuity have prompted me to post some thoughts and an inquiry here. (It's at the heart of one of the main reasons why I really lament that there aren't any more episodes being made ... yet.)

From a writing point of view, I think "Hunter's Moon, Part III" -- which I realize was a season finale -- would have served as a much better "final" finale for your involvement than "The Journey," which just left everything dangling for me like an unfinished book. Maybe I should say "like an unfinished chapter" because I don't want the book to end. At least in "Hunter's Moon," it ended with a bit of a payoff: an open declaration of mutual love between two main characters ("You know how I feel about you, right?" "How we both feel, yes." and even a kiss). It helped bring together a few loose strands that had been threading from almost the very beginning of the series without completely shutting it off from future development (far from it, actually).

In "The Journey," there is an aborted, sort-of date with very little discussion between Goliath and Elisa about what is really happening between the two of them or that very significant exchange between them from the previous episode. Also, from the information shared in this site, it seems you knew this was your farewell episode in many respects. So I would be interested to learn what you intended to have at work between Goliath and Elisa in this episode because I'm not sure that I "got it" all. I think an argument could be made that the episode, coming immediately in sequence after "Hunter's Moon," implies that a relationship between the two is A-OK with them without any internal conflicts.

Did you really want to make things seem less defined between them and let some time pass before they actually had The Talk about their relationship, specifically to help sustain fans' interest at a time when you may not have known what the future held for the series and their story?

Sorry to ramble on, but I don't want to appear as though I'm sorry you stayed on for one episode too many (again, far from it!) I'd like to learn your thoughts about the episode from a story/character development perspective.

Thank you.

Ray Kremer writes...

Aris-

As long as we're chatting, well, yes. It is annoying and boring. That's unavoidable, but also why I only did a handful. Unsportsmanlike? Absolutely. Which is why I'm more than a little sorry for doing it. Though it honestly didn't occur to me before that the robot numbers would have some logic behind them, I figured they were random (guess I wasn't thinking about how Greg operates). Maybe I won't be able to work up the guts to do more acronyms later, we'll see. This time I was swept up in the excitement of knowing two letters for sure. If you want, we can make a note that the point I got for the "994" is tainted. And I'm not sure the website completely atones for my sins, either. But really, is it so much worse than when the clans contest was going on?

I suppose Greg will be reading these. His challenge will be making the next contest one he won't end up regretting...

Aris Katsaris writes...

Btw, (and so that I'm not negative all the time), I want to thank you, Ray, for the page with the text and the blanks filled in. That *does* atone for the brute-force tactics :-)

Aris Katsaris writes...

Sorry about this, but it must be done. :-)

Ray, don't you think that the brute-force tactics you are constantly employing are a bit annoying *and* extremely boring, not to mention unsportmanslike?

Once again, sorry...

Todd Jensen writes...

By the way (also on that same document) I agree with you that a big problem with the notion of "Goliath as a human who was transformed into a gargoyle" is that the audience would be expecting and wanting him to find a cure, which of course would be out of the question in a television series since it would automatically end it. I found that particularly interesting since I've noticed that there are many cases of television series which have an explicit or implicit specific objective for the protagonist(s) which, if achieved, would automatically force the series to conclude. Thus, unless, the concept is handled extremely carefully, the series develops a note of frustration about it as the protagonist always has to fail to achieve his or her objective, to keep the series going.

"Gargoyles", fortunately, managed to avoid that problem by making the protagonists' goal something that was a journey rather than a destination. The gargoyles' goal is to survive in this strange new world, understand it, and protect it, all three ongoing quests rather than ones with a specific end of "We've done it; now the story's over". Which, I certainly believe, was a good thing for "Gargoyles".

(Of course, some of the spin-offs might be described, from what you've said about them, as falling into the "concrete objective" category, but even there, there were solutions to that here and there. For example, in "Pendragon", Arthur and Griff's goal is to find Merlin, but from the evidence that you've given, the story would definitely not be over after they do find him and get him out of the Crystal Cave. "Timedancer", of course, would be a different story, since the series is definitely over once Brooklyn gets back to Castle Wyvern, but since that won't be for forty years after his adventures begin, there's room enough for a lot of stories there).

Maria writes...

Hey Greg!!
Um, I have a question about doing my own kind of gargoyles story. But I want to make sure that the characters I'm thinking up don't mix too much with Disney and what you came up with. Is there a way I can email you, or you email me, so I can maybe get some interesting ideas or even some council? This is something I would like to do as maybe a comic book series or something. Or maybe just a book series with a lot of illustrations. Kind of like a teen book, or even an adult book or something. But without the unnecessary adult material which I consider sacred and unneeded in todays hideously over-rated Hollywood. It's so hard to see movies these days because there aren't any good ones to see.
Anyway, my email is Marie Destine@aol.com. I'm not sure at this point if there is anythin at all that I will be able to do. This is just an idea at pressent that I want to explore and hopefully make a reality. So, if there's anything more you need to know about the ideas I have so far, or wouldn't mind giving me some tips I would appreciate it. I just figured I should ask you what is the best course to take because you are in the business and I thought that you might be the best person to ask.
So anyway, any help you could give would be great.
Thanks in advance!! ^_^

Kayless writes...

Hey there Greg.

I was thinking of posting a guess for the contest but then I thought: Why pour gasoline on a burning house? You know, this new contest reminds me of a Simpson's episode where Apu hides a snake in the Quick-E-Mart on Whacking Day as a marketing ploy. The first one to whack the serpent gets a free Squishy. Unfortunately the participants search for the snake by knocking over counters, flinging food, and smashing products. Apu sighs after giving up on telling them to control themselves and says, 'I really should have put more thought into this.'

I still need sleep…

Todd Jensen writes...

Another "more-musing-than-question" comment here. In "M.I.A.", when Leo and Una are urging Griff not to take part in the Battle of Britain, saying that "the Nazis are a human problem", Goliath replies that "in my experience, human problems become gargoyle problems."

What I found interesting about this remark is that, in fact, the origins of the "gargoyle problems" in the series do bear out the truth of Goliath's remark.

1. The Wyvern Massacre of 994. Arose in part from an attack on the castle by Hakon and his Vikings, who were initially doing so for the plunder (and Hakon at first didn't even believe that there were actual gargoyles living there).

2. The flight of the eggs to Avalon in 995. Arose from Constantine murdering Kenneth II and wanting to marry Katharine to strengthen his claim to the Scottish throne that he'd just usurped.

3. The troubles that Demona and her clan underwent at the hands of the Hunters in the 11th century. Stemmed partly from Gillecomgain's personal vendetta from Demona (which was essentially a gargoyle problem), but also from Duncan and Canmore's feud with Clan Moray over the succession to the Scottish throne (definitely a human problem).

4. Goliath's modern-day adventures in "Awakening". Ultimately stemmed from a human problem (Xanatos wanting to conduct a raid on Cyberbiotics to steal its research).

5. The Quarryman threat from "The Journey" onwards. While based in part on the public's fear of the gargoyles, as far as Castaway is concerned, it's ultimately really based on a human problem (Castaway's unadmitted guilt over shooting and maiming his brother, which he blames the gargoyles for).

(Not to mention that the evidence in "Once Upon A Time There Were Three Brothers" shows how the feud between two rival Scottish houses over the throne in the years leading up to 971 wound up drawing in the Wyvern clan).

So I'd have to agree with Goliath on that one; a very accurate statement on how the gargoyle race isn't an island.

Aris Katsaris writes...

<glances at Adam and says nothing> :-)

Okay, moving on to other things. I had said:
--"Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'truth'."

and you said:
--"Who's Terry Pratchett?"

and I say:
*Shame* on you! :-)

Anyway, Terry Pratchett is a (British) writer of humorous fantasy, probably the best of the lot. His most famous work is the "Discworld" series of books... It ranges from the silly/trivial ('Colour of Magic','Eric') all the way to the deep and serious ('Small Gods', perhaps 'Hogfather') sometimes even venturing into the dark and creepy ('Soul Music', 'Carpe Jugulum')

The early books ('Colour of Magic' 'Light Fantastic') weren't *that* great so I usually recommend 'Small Gods' to beginners, which is also the book I started with - it isn't just a good book but it's also a story with none of the recurring characters of the series so one won't get confused at all.

But perhaps (given the Gargoyles series) a better recommendation would be "Wyrd Sisters" (a humorous take on 'Hamlet'/'Macbeth' and Shakespeare in general). Also its 'sequel', "Lords and Ladies", parodying in part Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream".... Great book...

My all-time favourite Discworld book is perhaps "Hogfather". Featuring Death, Death's grandaughter Susan, Auditors of Reality, Santa Claus, a brilliant assassin with the mind of a child, a stupid thug with the mind of a child, the oh god of hangovers, tooth fairies, the first bogeyman *ever*, and also the monster under your bed. A book about the magic (aka 'real terror') of childhood. :-)

That books is also the reason that I know that Santa Claus can be handled in a very serious manner - and "Hogfather"'s utilisation of him is as serious as one can get... I actually have more respect for the big guy now.. :-)

Okay that was a ramble - sorry about that. To finish, I'll just say i've heard than in America Pratchett may be better known because of his co-writing the book "Good Omens" with Neil Gaiman...

puck40 writes...

dear god.... its been what? a week if that? I have no sense of time anymore. erhmm... go Greg! good god, I mean good job with the contest! o.O; hoping to get it done in tie for G2001. <falls over laughing> 9.9; so erhm. I'm going to ask a question in next post. This one its just. Good job and dear god... good luck answering these things <if the contest isn't *over* by the time my post hits>.

Ed writes...

Hi Greg.

I like the shape of the future you've built, or as far as I can see it. Obviously you won't answer anything on it at the moment, but I'm particularly interested to find out what the other clans are up to. And Coyote-X sounds great. I just hope the Space Spawn aren't the sort to gurgle in their throats or shout, "prepare to die, earthlings!" or something.

As for the large amount of guesses already filled - I still think the last ones will take a long time. Especially since some of them seem to be names that I don't know if we can guess. 233-253 and 306-339 look particularly tough.

Todd Jensen writes...

One thing that I was thinking about the events in "The Gathering". Many Gargoyles fans, including myself, didn't approve of Oberon and Titania's attempt to kidnap Alexander, even if it was for the sake of allowing him to achieve his magical potential. But one thing that I recently considered is that their abduction attempt may have been a blessing for the gargoyles, if a disguised one at first.

After all, one of the major results of the whole kidnapping attempt was that Xanatos ended his feud with the gargoyles, and gave them shelter at Castle Wyvern after the Canmores blew up the clock tower and exposed the clan's existence to the world. If he'd still been at odds with them, I doubt that he'd have done that (or at least, not under as generous terms for the clan); at best, in the aftermath of "Hunter's Moon", the gargoyles would have been reduced to his pawns (just as he'd wanted them to be when he first awakened them), and at worst, they'd be homeless and all but defenceless, most likely to wind up dead or in captivity. I doubt that Titania was anticipating the Hunters' actions a few episodes later when she tried to kidnap Alex, but I can't help but suspect that it saved the gargoyles' life at St. Damien's Cathedral.

Todd Jensen writes...

One thought that I had about your remark that Goliath isn't likely to tell anybody about the details of that "Future Tense" nightmare that Puck gave him; I think that it's a good thing, myself. I'm not sure that it would be that advisable to let the rest of the clan know about Lexington being a traitor in "Future Tense", and I'm definitely certain that it would be a bad idea to let Brooklyn know about the "mated to Demona" business (especially where Owen is concerned :)

puck40 writes...

Hey Greg

Comment about Terry Pratchet. :)
Just find any one of those Discworld books and read the first couple pages. If your not hooked into it by the first or second page... well like thats possible. hee hee
ja!

Maria writes...

Another silly Question from Silly Maria: ^_^
Why is 'adopting' for Goliath and Elisa more convenient?
I obviously have a very different thinking pattern. I guess I feel that if someone really loved someone else they would be willing to make some sort of change. So that's why I find it hard to believe that Elisa or Goliath can't make a magical change or something. In my mind, just because you change your form doesn't necessarily mean you are changing who you are. It can change a PART of who you are, but it doesn't change everything about you. You are who you are inside. And that includes your SOUL. Your soul is who you are. That's why we are able to differentiate between right and wrong because GOD gave us that gift. We just abuse it sometimes or ignore it, because we are down here on earth to learn. And from circumstance and learning different behaviors, we sometimes become what we were not in the beginning.
So, why would it be so inconvienient? (Bad spelling. . . :P) I mean, I am probably WAY off base. But that's just the way I feel . . . if that's all right.

I guess the problem for us Goliath and Elisa fans is we REALLY want Goliath and Elisa to have a child. Yet, contradictorally, we understand that ethnically, it would be impossible. And yet we hope for a miracle. I guess in my frame of mind, seeing them raise a family of their own would be like some kind of resolution. Strange, isn't it?
Anyway, enough of my rediculous ramblings. I probably don't make any sense - though I try to. It's just hard sometimes to put my thoughts into words. And they don't always come out the way I want them too. So for that I apologize. A hard life has let my communication skills go to par. ^_^!
Well, if that wasn't too - ridiculous - I'll take off now. TTFn. Ta Ta For Now!! :)

Skylar writes...

Hi Folks!
Just a little comment for those who might wonder about the date of my last posting: It might seem wrong, but firstly at my watch it´s really already about an hour after mightnight (there might be some hours time difference between the locations) and so my posting made a little time-travel and landed yesterday ;) - but secondly I guess it will already be also for Greg at least the 28. September when he reads or answers it. (And birthday greeting cards also often come a little time too early. It´s normal.)

Greetings ;))

- Skylar

Fire Storm writes...

Hi Greg! I am a long time reader and a first time poster! :)
I know you probally don't remember me, but I was in the late night G98 chat.

Bonnieway...

No real questions this time, so I hope you don't mind if I jump between two topics.

Gargoyles: 2198
You asked for it! 200K+ of responses in less than 24 hours!

A few times you mentioned that the powers to be were afraid (or maybe you were) that Gargoyles would be too much like Batman: TAS
But I have seen an episode that had WAY too many parallels to Gargoyles (It was made well after even 'The GOliath Cronicles' aired)

Basicailly, Jeff Bennet played a crazy character. It has been a while since I saw that episode, but two parts stick out in my mind:
In one part, a angel statue drops on Bennet's character, it's head pop's off and he sticks his head up where the statue's head would have been.

AND in a second part, a castle parade float manages to fly through the air and land on top of a pile of garbage. I even think there was fog below the castle...

Anyway, the episode was VERY funny!

OH, and I think that the Star Trek: Voyager writers threw in something about her Gargoyles character. She said something (to a holodeck character) to the feel of 'Do you think i am the queen of the faries?'

Well, have fun, take care, and see you in LA!

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

sorry about the fact that im about to post several times, but im dividing up my rants, as per your request ^_^

re: gay/lesbian gargs
it depends on what culture. in ancient greece, being gay was perfectly normal. you only got ridiculed for being the "feminie" side of the gay relationship. the "masculine" side was just as accepted as heterosexuality.

The Mighty Thor writes...

Hey just a question that i was thinking about
Why?
With all the talk of starwars (don't worry this question ain't about SW) it made me think, well we all love the original SW-tri. just like we love the 66eps of Gargoyles for us fans it's like a part of culture, well for me it is, and I have read the SW books 80+ and, well SW isn't the same I don't like the idea that Luke, Han, and Leia will grow old and die, latter in the books Chewie dies!!! For some reason I don't want the same thing to happen to Goliath and the trio and Elisa, don't get me wrong but in order to do all this continuing of the story our original cast is gonna grow old and die, personaly I'm glad that the show was stoped, not cuz it was bad, but because it was one of my favorite shows and had great characters and everything, and I don't want to SEE it die.
This probably sounds like sacrliage but I just thought I'd speak my mind. Thanks for your time.

Todd Jensen writes...

One thing that puzzled me in the "Guidelines for Villains" document that you posted just now. When it gave a list of the kind of "silly Batman villains" to avoid, it included Mr. Freeze on the list, alongside the Penguin and the Riddler. Now, the latter two, I can see as "silly", from what I know of them - but Mr. Freeze as portrayed in "Batman:TAS" (which is, admittedly, the only interpretation of the character that I'm familiar with) didn't strike me as silly at all. He seemed more like an effectively tragic figure, a man trapped forever in eternal cold, shut out from warmth and aware of his plight, and wanting vengeance upon the hypocritical businessman who had put him in this condition - with the additional element of his grief over his forever being parted from his wife Nora. I'm at a loss as to how such a figure can be considered "silly" - and can only assume that you must have had a different interpretation of Mr. Freeze in some other "Batman" medium. (Since, as I said, I don't know how he was portrayed outside of "Batman:TAS", it's quite possible).

Razor Dog writes...

Hello, Greg.

Here's my question. Are there any Gargoyles CDs or soundtracks available? It seems that soundtracks for videogames and animated series are just too impossible to find in the U.S. Over in Japan, it's as easy as pie to find CDs for such genres.

Anyway, I love your work and it's a shame the series got cancelled. I was so jaded to find that The Goliath Chronicles croaked and I almost cried, I really did. Gargoyles was the one of the VERY last cartoon series I actually LOVED before I got sucked into the world of anime (mostly Dragon Ball Z). Thanx for all the memories your series gave me to cherish and good luck on the next series- I'm looking forward to it :)

Todd Jensen writes...

Another note on the "Brainstorming Villains" document: I do find it rather intriguing that a rejected name for Goliath would be "Griffin", in view of the later addition of Griff into the series. So people on the project already knew of the connection between gargoyles and griffons, then?

Todd Jensen writes...

I read your document on the three "proposed and rejected" villains for "Gargoyles" - Mortify, Lichen, and Val Starch - and have to agree that they were "underwhelming", as you put it (although given that, as you also point out, they were the result of not too many people at Disney having experience with the animated action-drama genre at this time, I don't think that one should be too hard on the chap who designed them). The thing that really stands out about this trio to me, actually, is that I'd be hard-pressed to work out how they could serve as suitable thematic adversaries to a medieval gargoyle awakened in New York; they could fit nicely against a purely modern-day super-hero of the conventional sort, but don't strike me as being as appropriate to pit against Goliath as the antagonists who did make it into the series were. (Well, maybe Lichen as a fellow "monster", and Mortify's journalistic background could cause some problems, the way that in the actual series, "Jon Carter"'s report for WVRN did in "Hunter's Moon Part Three", but on the whole, it's more of a stretch than the "finished product" antagonists).

puck<40> writes...

Greg responds...

I once read a Star Wars novel right after the original movie came out. It stank. Kinda turned me off that whole thing.

But you never know.

;-; you read Splinter of the Minds eye? huff. See when I read this trilogy of books it turned me *onto* the other books. Timothy Zahn is really a great writer. And turned me on so much so that I read through so many of the bad ones... including "splinter" <which was released shortly after the movie, pure crap>. Occasionally I try to make my way through another one here and there..... But everything pales. PALES!!!!!! ~taunts all the star wars fans who disagree~ sheep!!!! can't any of these so called hardcore fans see that a BIG MACHINE OF DEATH is kinda boring? book after book.... ;-; so depressing. But This trilogy.... MWAHAHAHH. 9.9; sorry

erhm, heheh. ^.^ anyways.... ~wavies the books in front of Greg~ If I managed to send these.... or not even these. Just the first one to Jen, would you consider reading it? "Heir to the Empire". Made the best seeeelllleeeerrrssss list. =) Hit number oooooonnnneeee. read the reviews online of it if my sales pitch didn't sell it.

and forget about the rest of the books. <a couple short stories are superb here and there but mostly they're blah>

running off now, spanish homework to do.

Kelly Leigh Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

Sam asked "I was just curious, biologically, how old was everyone in the mini clan back in 1996? Thanks alot!"

yes, the MiniClan is an internet-based fan-clan. The majority of the clan is around the same age. in 1996 most of us were 15/16, with a few ranging off in each direction. that means most of us are around 19/20/21 now. but truely, the ages range from probably 5-50 or so ^_^

Kayless writes...

Some of your posts indicate that you're a Highlander fan, or at least are familiar with the original movie and some of the T.V. series. I was wondering if you'd seen Highlander: Endgame yet. While not as good as the original, it was easily the best of the sequels, taking the best from the show and first movie and combining them into a poignant package. I went into this movie with a sense of despair (understandable, due to the last two big screen fiascos) and came out pleasantly surprised. The battle choreographing was topnotch too, on par with The Matrix and The Phantom Menace. Overall I consider seeing Highlander: Endgame a good use of an afternoon.

puck40 writes...

among my gargoyle interests I fell in love with Star Wars for a while. And erhm... just gonna post my comment on that whole Phantom Menace bit. lalala.

There was this book trilogy that came out "Heir to the Empire", "Dark Force Rising", and "The Last Command". It took place 5 years after Return of the Jedi. Whole bunch of books released. And among any of these... technically non-canon books, these kicked ass! (a lot of them sucked) So if you just wanna make-believe that Mr. Lucas formally accepts them <he's all like "you can write them but they're not technically continuity" and why? for the money of course, so if he makes money, i say its all good>, it means there is something better than Return of the Jedi. So Phantom Menace is seeable!

sort of.... the movie sucked. I mean the action sequences were crisp, but the acting... god help us. Character development... sigh... So umm... if the next movie gets good reviews, maybe you'd consider reading those three kickass books which would be a little like a.... "what happened after Jedi bit", and see the movie?

Timothy Zahn is the author, and how he writes those books are truly brilliant. I found them more enticing than the original trilogy actually. And do you know why they were so good? full blown character development... and the villian! oh my god so ingeniously cool. I'd give a little more description cept this post is getting long already and don't even know if your interested.

and if you do read the books... be careful. Because out of that whole series as a whole, some really suck.

later Greg!

Brian writes...

I was reading some questions and people mentioned that the toon disney episodes were edited. I knew they got rid of deadly force but a never heard about this! Do you where there is a list of the edits so I can see what I'm missing?
Also, I can't belive they only show one episode a day now. At least they do it twice.

Todd Jensen writes...

I recently realized that there is a certain similarity between the Sidero/Xavier team-up in the original comedy version of "Gargoyles" and the Hakon/Wolf team-up in "Vendettas". In both cases, a couple of villains team up against the gargoyles, one an original enemy of theirs from the Middle Ages, surviving on only as a ghost, the other a modern-day descendant of that medieval enemy who is scorned by his medieval ancestor for being too "poor-quality". Was the Sidero/Xavier team-up the distant inspiration for the Hakon/Wolf team-up?

Aris Katsaris writes...

Lexy> <<You mentioned that Sora was going to be one of the females included in the Manhattan Rookery>>

Actually Greg didn't...

Ambrosia writes...

*glances through questions being submitted*
Whoa.
I had no idea I was going to stir up so much controversy just mentioning the Phantom Menace. I too thought Mary Mack's sending *you*, someone who had just blatantly said that he had not seen this movie, a post full of spoilers was very distasteful.
I can't argue whether it was a good movie or not because that's a matter of opinion. Like I said before, I like *everything* so my opinions are always somewhat fluffy. I have yet to find a story that's a total waste. I have too much respect for people like you who put these things together (Cartoons, movies, stuff).
Where was I going with this? *checks map* Oh, yeah. Well, should you *ever* choose to see Phantom Menace, attempt to put aside the biases we've all thrown at you and enjoy or don't enjoy. Whichever.

Kelly Leigh Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

i just read your latest answeres and felt like pointing something out:

since i was about five years old ive been creating alternate characters for myself. i had read the name Siobhan in a book and liked it so much that one of my characters used that name. i just thought it was cool that youve thought of using that name too. *shrug* not a big thing, but i wanted to ramble ^_^

Siren writes...

I was wondering, since is is now available to rent on VHS/DVD, have you seen Princess Mononoke? It was a wonderful movie! Keith David did the voice of the leader of the Boar Clan...damned if I can remember the name. Did an excellent job too...But I can't help imagining that was Goliath, even sounded like some things Goliath might say at one point or another. He is also the narrator as well, at the beginning. If ya haven't seen it and do see it later, could you please post what ya think about it? I like your opinons on the other movies you saw (ex: Titan A.E., Jurassic Park, etc) Thanks so much!

Nemi writes...

*TWACK!s herself on the head.*

I just remebered and I keep on forgeting.

I meant ot tell you a while ago but as I said I forgot.

Anyways, short but true story:

School made us enter a poetry contest.
I was among the Winners.
Result It gets Published and I lose all rights to the poem (I didn't even get a discount on the book!)

Relavance: Said Poem was inspired by Gargoyles, Macbeth's plight of living forever in patcular. (I had just seen the ep where he was dressed as the hunter and trying to end it all)

Anthology of Poety by Young Americans, 2000 eedition, page tem, the long one, by Rachel Lindenberg.

-Nemi, who is weird and forgetful

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

I am terribly sorry about this, but for once I haven't read everything posted to the "waiting to be asked" page before posting this. Although I did do a quick scan. I am tying up my brother's line when he has the good grace to give me indefinite lone of his couch to save me from a monster commute. Of course if no one has asked yet, I am terribly sorry to have admitted that I haven't followed the rules:}

You just [9/5/00] posted: Intern Ideas

"Continuing our reprinting of old documents from the Gargoyles Development File.

This one was written by Regina Dixon, who was a college intern working at Disney TV Animation for the summer. Refer to previously posted documents to see what she was basing these ideas comedy springboards on.

I hate to say it, but in hindsight this seems like busy work to me. We hadn't even sold the show. We were a long way from needing story ideas. Still, I suppose it was good practice."

Is this complete? I have been keeping rather current and I don't remember specific episode ideas in the posting of old stuff.

As long as I am touching on my fear of missing anything.. you mentioned a chat on the 1rst of September (I think). Do you know if there is a transcript that can be posted? Or, Hi Gore! does Gore?

Goliath_994 (aka Michael Norton writes...

Greg, I was in the adult chat the night VP got you and most everybody else upset. I agree with your ramble on the subject 100%. I did not care much for VP's attitude, but what he said made a lot of sense. I didn't jump in and defend the guy because I really didn't want to alienate myself from the rest of fandom or offend you. But the more I thought about it the more I regretted not speaking up and am very happy with what you have said about the subject. At the time of the chat I was thinking things like "What if Frank Paur had other, conflicting ideas, why wouldn't they be considered canon?". Or "What if Disney had other ideas? They do own the show". I don't mean any offense by those statements, but they did go through my mind. That said, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions and certainly consider you the top authority on anything Gargoyles related. I hope and pray that Gargs gets back on the air and that you are the creative force behind it.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Tana> Well JRR Tolkien didn't exactly say that what he was writing was fact. More that (like Greg) he seemed to not be inventing, but rather delving into a subcreation - a universe that had some reality of its own, so that instead of inventing he just had to wait until he could see what had 'really' happened...

Todd Jensen writes...

A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).

I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.

One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.

zippysquir@aol.com writes...

Justa word of caution concerning Mary Mack's summary of The Phantom Menace: some people don't know how to enjoy a movie.
Basically, she wanted the movie equivalent of this: "Take everything you had planned for all 65/66 episodes of Gargoyles and make just ONE episode."

These idiots exist everywhere; beware of them. Bad advice can be the killer.

Watch the movie, forget any opinions but your own, and realize the following Darth Maul created with just ten minutes of screen time.

P.S. Luke Skywalker got a medal for blowing up the Death Star and killing somewhere in the neighboorhood of a million people who were just doing their job.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Btw, LSZ's "Zeroth" was a reference to some of Isaac Asimov's novels - mainly "Robots and Empire" if I remember correctly where the Zeroth Law comes to be added to the first Three Laws of Robotics. I assume you haven't read it? :-)

Blaise writes...

Gotta say, I LOVE reading these early documents of GARGOYLES.

I was rather surprised that Amp had originally been two separate characters (Nick and Trouble), and that there was a second precursor to Lexington (Campbell, I think it was).
I was also surprised to find that Dakota's own precursor, Georgette was not originally the leader, but instead the "should-be-leader" character. You had mentioned that the reason you changed Dakota to Demona was that she was too bland and uninteresting to be the leader of a comic team. Why was she made the full leader when the cast was slimmed? Do you think her more "serious" character would have worked in the original role of Georgette?

Human-wise: I never even suspected the inclusion of Sidero, though it sounds like it could have made for some fun conversations. Xavier sounds every bit as Igthorn-ish as I imagined him to be (I don't know why, but just from your original description of him, I thought of Igthorn). And already, Morgan has gone through THREE changes of profession--before she was named she was a lab person working for Xavier, then she became a curator, and finally an archeologist. Actually, after that, she became BOTH of the latter. This woman just wanted to be everything, didn't she?

Owen...I can't help but smile at the image of an aardvark plunking away at a computer or hitting on a woman.

I have always been interested in how you guys originally developed the series. I remember asking the question of the comedic counter-parts of the characters way back when ASK GREG first went on-line. Now I'm learning more of it than I ever dreamed existed.

Thanks. I mean it.

Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, and thank you for the "Owen as an aardvark" memo (this is one part of the original comedy development that I especially rememebered - I once mentioned it in a Gargoyles newsgroup, in fact - and promptly sent one of the other members into shock over it). It was interesting getting to see the "original draft" character descriptions for Elisa, Owen, and Xanatos (as Morgan, Owen, and Xavier).

And yep, I've got to agree with you that Xavier would have been annoying in a serious drama as a major villain, but works nicely as the main villain of a comedy series (just like Duke Igthorne, whom I recall quite well).

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

ramble:

morgan and dakota as good buddies? o.O ahh?

seriously- thanx for all the pre-gargs info. i love to see what the show evolved from, and laugh at all the close calls ^_^ i still cant get over the pic of RALPH from g2k. oh my GHOD. the show wouldnt have gotten the respect that it did, and the following, if it had stayed in the gummy bears phase. im sure of it. (no offense, but gummybears didnt have that following, and i dont think gargs would have either)

*gets off her soap box* ^_-

Aris Katsaris writes...

To Duncan Devlin who said: "I don't quite understand the response. From my experience, not ALL things are true."

Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'true' "

Dracolich writes...

By the time you read this, you will probably have the answer, but just in case:

A poster has been asking you questions about the "connection" of the fey. I beleive what he or she is referring to is what powers or forces they are associated with. Example: Aphrodite, love. Seth(or Set), storms and evil. I hope this helps. See 'ya again! P.S. I'm shortening my name.

Entity writes...

Hi,

I'd just like to back Mary Mack's summary/review of The Phantom Menace. It was everything she described it as.

I'd also like to voice my pleasure at the sight of Wrath of Khan in your list of favorite movies. It's in mine, too, but most of the time that film seems to get jipped. Either the person's someone who has an inexplicable (and I venture to say shallow) distaste for Star Trek, or they'd rather claim First Contact as the hands-down best film, ignoring the originals.

Incidentally, I thought First Contact was a travesty. Maybe think "First Knight" for Arthurian Legend, to get an idea.

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

*reads your post about needing a tape recording of her voice* well, i work at an 800 number. ill send it to gorebash, and you can feel free to call me any time. ^_^ im the receptionist, so unless im at lunch (generally between 11:45 and 12:45 eastern) ill be the one to answer the phone!

Matthew Smith writes...

hey Greg, what's up? Well, this isn't really a Gargoyle related question, it's more about one of the movies you mention being one of your favorites: Ghostbusters. That is one of my all time favorite movies. I see you didn't seem to like the sequel. I rather enjoyed GB2, heck I bought both movies last weekend, but I guess i can see why you didn't like it. I mean walking Statue of Liberty, "Mood Slime" that responded to good/bad vibes...ect...
My passion for Ghostbusters goes back to my when I was 5. Oh I remember religiously watching "The Real Ghostbusters" every day before kindergarten. Me and my brother used to dress up in old pyjammas, which our mother altered to have the Ghostbuster logo on the shoulders, and would run around the neighbourhood pretending to "bust" ghosts.
Anyway, back to the movie. My mother must have hated that movie with a passion, simply because it was the only thing we'd rent whenever we'd go to our grand-parents house (who had a VCR when we didn't) must have seen the movie like 60 times back then, and that was before I could appreaciate the witty humor, let alone understand the plot.
Last year, I watched the movie for the first time in about 10 years. I never realized excactly how clever of a movie it was. It was hillarious, yet not off the wall not to be taken seriously. Even the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man provided a serious enough threat.
Come to think of it, this actually is a Gargoyles question. Gozer's Terror Dogs, the one's who possessed Dana and Louis reminded me an awful lot of Bronx. Did this in anyway inspire you to create the Gargoyle Beasts? Also, the Terror Dogs came to life by breaking out out of it's stone shell, much like the way Gargoyles do. Is this simply a coincidence? I remember you stating that your inspirations for Gargoyles were Gummi Bears, actual stone gargoyles, Hill Street Blues. But is it possible that Ghostbusters is among one of the inspirations for Gargoyles? Or am I just making wild speculations in hoping that one of my favorite movies helped inspire one of my favorite animated shows?

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of response to your comments on doing or not doing a Gargoyles/super-hero crossover of any sort. You mentioned that you didn't see it happening, short of a crossing between parallel universes, because the Gargoyles Universe and the super-hero universes of DC and Marvel Comics are very different in style. From what I know of mainstream super-heroes (which, I will confess, isn't all that much), I can certainly agree with you.

Take Batman, for example. The Batman Universe is clearly different enough from the Gargoyles Universe. In the Batman Universe, the "super-villains" are more out in the open, with the public all too aware of them. In the Gargoyles Universe, the "super-villains" are more low-profile; the general public don't know that Demona, Thailog, Oberon's Children, and the Illuminati actually exist. They know about Xanatos and Macbeth, but only in terms of their public personas; they know about the Pack, but only as "TV actors who went bad" - I haven't seen any indications that the general public know as yet about Jackal and Hyena being cyborgs now or Wolf being a mutant wolf-man. They don't even know for certain about the gargoyles until the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" - and even then all that they know is that the gargoyles exist, and nothing more than that.

In conventional super-hero universes, the weird and paranormal is very public and high-profile, known to the public. In the Gargoyles Universe, the weirdness exists just as surely, but is far more "covered up". For this reason, I can't seriously imagine Batman or Superman or Spiderman or the X-Men existing in the same universe as the gargoyles.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.

Mary Mack writes...

So, you didn't see The Phantom Menace.

SPOILERS

Lucky guy. That movie got me all bent out of shape for lots of reasons, and I think some of them stem from being a Gargoyles addict. I respect nonhumans. In Phantom Menace, the nonhumans were either villains (the inept flunkie-type, at that) or stupid as dirt and present only for comic relief. Anybody who could possibly save the day had to be human and under twenty-one, and somebody thought that having a nine-year-old boy destroy a battleship full of sentient beings was a GOOD idea. (Okay, so the kid grew up to be Darth Vader, but really, they practically threw him a party for mass murder!) Qui-Gon Jinn, our first real look at a Jedi Knight in his prime, cheated at dice. How very, very honorable of him. Darth Maul, who had the potential to be scary and evil and really, really neat, talked a little, did some impressive acrobatics (played by Toad from X-Men, now there's a good movie), and died. Seven minutes of screen time, tops. Folks mention racial stereotypes in the film; they're right. I wondered why those trade federation guys didn't just say "Ah, so!" and get it over with. Or why Jar-Jar didn't offer Obi-Wan a hit of whatever he was smoking. The direction was minimal, the dialog weak, and most of the actors seem too scared of Mr. Lucas to improvise. The special effects were eye-popping, but hardly ever seemed to have anything to do with the plot. One character is introduced solely as comic relief (Jar-Jar), and he has no witty repartee, just slapstick that occurs beacuse he's the stupid nonhuman.

Basically, you missed a gaping wad of nothing by missing Phantom Menace, and you're luckier than I am. That movie managed to sour me on Star Wars as a whole-- pre-Phantom, I'd read every book, bought action figures, comics, expensive expandable lightsabres... post-Phantom, zip. Gargoyles, Star Wars fiction, Star Trek, Sci-Fi and Fantasy books all gave me an appreciation for good stories where the villains were interesting, the plots thick, and the heroes not neccesarily caucasian humans. The Phantom Menace was bad. It was, to Star Wars, what the Goliath Chronicles was to Gargoyles. Only shorter.

Man Mountain writes...

Greg, You seemed confused on LSZ's use of "Zeroth." I first read it as ZEH-roth but then realized he meant
ZEE-rothe as in 0th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Is that what confused you as well or am I just... um, dumb?

LSZ writes...

As to the Zeroth thing; I'm not sure if you used it or not, but it seemed a logical thing to call the pre-First Race; thought of this while reading Asimov on his Three and then Four Laws of Robotics..

Todd Jensen writes...

I just read the latest "early development" memo. I found it another fun "behind the scenes" peek at the early history of "Gargoyles".

The two bits that particularly stood out to me were:

1. The gargoyles fondness for partying (which was also mentioned in the earlier memos). That obviously pre-dated Goliath's introduction into the project, given that I have a very hard time imagine Goliath partying. The trio (whose proto-versions WERE in the original comedy development, I recall), yes, but Goliath - I don't even want to make the attempt.

2. Xanatos's original as the several-times-great-nephew to the evil wizard (the original of the Archmage, the Magus, or both?). The thing that stood out to me here was that the nephew character struck me from the description as sounding like a conventional cartoon villain rather than the very memorable and convention-flouting David Xanatos. It makes it amazing when you think over what this character would eventually become.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the memos, to see what other treasures they might contain.

Ambrosia writes...

Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...

Calvina Richardson writes...

I just want to say that Gargyles is one of my alltime favorite cartoons and I am 25. I just want to know is there
a time or place that I can view Gargoyles outside of toon disney since it is not available in my area.

Scott Iskow writes...

You asked me (warily) why I didn't like "Leader of the Pack" as much as other episodes. Oh, gee, where do I start? ;)

First off, let me say that I didn't hate it. In fact, I think I liked it originally. This episode, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of being constantly rerun to the point of nausea. I'd get sick of the *best* of episodes if it kept being shown over and over. It eventually came to a point where I'd turn off the TV as soon as I'd hear the music that began the ep, (on a good day, I'd get through the entire first act before shutting it off).

Another thing that didn't quite work for me was the animation. Some parts looked good. Other parts looked like a sloppy version of Darkwing Duck or Tiny Toons. Just how big were Lexington's eyes, anyhow?

I also didn't buy that Lexington could be so vengeful. Didn't seem in character.

It was a nice touch to have Brooklyn giving him the "don't be vengeful" lecture, but later episodes depict Brooklyn jumping the gun just like Lex does here. Similarly, (a la "Hunter's Moon 1"), Brooklyn endangers the clan by giving up the element of surprise. Awful reckless for someone who both recognizes the pitfalls of vengeance and is the second-in-command.

Also, it may just be that I didn't like this episode as much as others because it was a Pack episode. The Pack is the closest thing the gargs have to cliched villains. I liked "Thrill," "Brother's Keeper," and "Upgrade," but disliked others like "Leader," and "The Green." Maybe I just find the Pack inaccessible as characters.

Criticism aside, I'm still a big fan of the show as a whole. There are an extremely small number of episodes that I thought were mediocre, (looking forward to your ramble on "Monsters", BTW). An excellent show like "Gargoyles" can get away with a few lesser-quality eps.

"Gargoyles" wasn't perfect. It was only damned good.

Now, before I offend thee further, I shall depart most hastily.

<leaves smoke trail in his wake>

puck40 writes...

Puck40's top five favorite episode list. Yeah yeah, I'm sure no one out there cares. But I'm telling for those people who are bored and just want something to read.... yeah thats it. So I'll put a quote in for each one that I think makes the episode *the* episode. (mind you, this isn't necessarilly the order I like the episodes in)

Enter Macbeth.
Why? look at my post praising if if you want. But this quote should justify all that is good.
~~"Its not you I'm after, your just a pawn, I want your QUEEN" - "Queen? We have no Queen" - "No?! then what about... Demona" - "You know Demona?" - "KNOW HER?! (doesn't Macbeth laugh so cool right here?) I *named* her... if I captured you, the last of your kind, she will come to free you, its *her* I want." - (twisted Goliath Thailog like laughter, guess he does know how to laugh maniacally) "Then you are a FOOL! She is our enemy... she wouldn't lift a talon to save us."

The Edge.
This almost doesn't make it due to the fact I hate broadway and he got lots of action shots. But ah... Xanatos.
~~"I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge."~~
If that line right there doesn't clench people into the episode... you all suck. His triumphs over losses. How his goal is always usually a small one that no one knows about, versus the fight that he fights. With freeing the pack and Coyote its all about Fox. Everything else is just subterfuge, yeah he kicks ass. And this episode was him, just wanting a self esteem boost. Something so trivial yet massively important! Spoon.

The Mirror.
Hey.... its Puck. its a really *fun* episode, and massively well written and acted besides the "cheesy" one liners. they were here... like the one that went something like "my strength has never depended on brute force, but on true friends" blah... or... "with Demona involved its more than (insert word lex or brook said here) its dangerous." But it was also the true *start* of the relationship with Elisa/Goliath. Very cool. which quote to choose from though... not any of the three bad ones... oh heck
~~"It was a ROMP indeed!" - "Spare me your gloating just go...." - "With out giving you something in return for all this merriment? Puck is many things, but never a poor guest!" - "Please.... Leave." - (an annoyed Puck right here) "You wanted to be your gargoyle self by night, and *not* stone by day? So be it."~~ (am sure everyone knows the spell by heart if your actually reading stuff in the Ask Greg.)

Vows.
The episode on my top five didn't use to be Vows, it was Avalon Part 2. Until I realized, when you go Time Travel wise... sure David Warners cool. But this episode so takes the cake. Again Xanatos is the "anti-hero", wouldn't say villian for this one. Whats his goal? To make sure he's rich, sure... but above all. He wants to impress his dad. Its such a childish thing, wanting to impress your dad, it always sticks with you. You don't want to be the dissapointment. So this was his alterior motive. And Petros... Clencher for this episode has to be this quote which by far gave me goosebumps first time I heard it.
~~"Whats this?" "A simple American penny, its not worth much now but in a thousand years.... Who knows? Its my wedding present to you, because its *all* you seem to care about."~~
yeah

And last but not least..

Future Tense.
Come on, you all knew it'd be here. I first saw it and was like... god... this is is so wrong but good!! and the end with Puck it was like. heheh, kickass! This episode was good for so many multiple reasons. The future depiction... the epic storyness. Xanatos killing Alexander, Hudson the first Hero of the war. That was SOOO cool. Lex the villian, Brooklyn punching out Goliath. Goliath showing he semi still had feelings for her by the end, hey... this was more the "old" her afterall, ne ne Greg? But as I said just above... I hated broadway. But I swear... this episode almost made me cry. The quote.
~~"Hold on Broadway... if you can last until sunrise you'll be healed." - "ohhh.... yes..... the sun. Can you see it Goliath... its.. beautiful...." - ".... goodbye.. my friend.."~~
(sniffle) that ones in the Avalon Archives.

Okay okay. the main reason I put this post up was to see if anyone else would put up there favorite top 5 or so episodes and "why" they were there favorite.

I'm gonna end this with one more quote since I've been doing them throughout... This one shows... that this show in general was more than a normal cartoon. It had depth.. continuity.. emotion... I give you the quote I think sums up that this series was truely unique.

Katherine: "Oh Magus... what have yae done?"
Magus: "Princess.. I-"
Katherine: "shhh... lay still now.. we'll get yae back tae th' palace an the-"
Magus: "n-no.... no katherine. i think i shall like to stay here.."
Goliath: "I owe you a great debt Magus"
Magus: "yooou... but, i cursed your clan"
Goliath: "You saved my children"
Magus: "hnn... oh I'm so tired... i think I would.... like to resst."
Katherine: "Yae *caenot" leave mae now."
Magus: "neveerr.. my princess.."
Katherine: "nooo Magus"
~and cue the music played over Katherine crying~
~on a note, most of these quotes are downloadable at http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org~

puck40 writes...

Puck40 writes (in reference to Enter Macbeth):
Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.

Greg responds...

Only the top three? :)

to which I respond. I meant episode!!!!

the show is by far my favorite American Cartoon(few have ever had continuity or intelligence, batman intelligence, x-men continuity, how many "combined" the two?). The storyline was beyond Excellent. The character development amazing. I mean, would've craved to see others more developed. Even Puck, who appeared in a mere 4 episodes, had a "fair" amount of screen time, evolved so far beyond a 2d character. He was shown how he was usually depicted..... mischievous, happy, fun. But he also had to him moments of annoyance at being forced to due stuff, a gift rejected, oh he'll get back at that. And less us not forget "Not Eternally!!!!" the panic in him there. I mean sweet! It measures up to Anime very easilly with animation at "moments" that could pass it in a heartbeat.

but meant episode. ^.^ hmmmm just for the hell of it I'll do another post in a sec

Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...

just read yer x-men ramble. so i thought id ramble a little ^_^ (twice in one day!! AAK!)

re: jurassic park and the lost world
okay anyone who knows me knows i LOVE dinosaurs. i love these movies because they have dinosaurs. but anyone who WATCHES these movies with me will immediately know that ive seen them at least 30 times (no exxageration) and i continually spout off the mistakes. editing errors, creative liberties and just plain MISTAKES. theres a HUGE list of them. the spelled the embryo label "stegAsaurus" instead of "stegOsaurus." they have the car fall into a revine as the t-rex pushed it over where it had torn down the fence, but WAIT? how did it tear down the fence if there is a revine? for that matter, where did the ground go that the goat was standing on? one could say that in the shot of the car going over, there is a patch of high ground on the left, but the t-rex actually pushed the car over where it had stepped out originally, hence the torn fense (am i clear on this? i dont think i sound like im making sense...) there are TONS of mistakes. but i like dinosaurs. so lets say i like the dinosaurs in the movie, more than i like the movie. i wanted to ask tho, have you read the books? dont read the lost world. it was written for the movie, and was badly done. but the original JP- was FANTASTIC. at least in my opinion. i read it 8 times. even better was Robert Bakker's Raptor Red. HIGHLY reccomend that one.

re: x-men
rogue's hair goes blonde in the end because her character in the comic book had a patch of blonde (or white, depending on what comic u read) hair on top of her head. i duno if that was originally a tribute to any other character or not. (i hadnt read the original comic. the only exposure to x-men i had was the animated serise, which i only watched a few of.)

re: comics in general
i used to read a lot of wonder woman (not the original stuff, but from about 1990-1991) and WildC.A.T.S. i LOVED the cats. Zealot was my HERO. but then the comic went all soap-opera and i was like "this sux." they broke up the original cast. its like "we have something thats doing well. lets CHANGE EVERY ASPECT OF IT, SHALL WE?" (soung familiar?) i did buy a few of Zealot's comics (#1-3 i think) and Grifter's (#8-10). grifters kinda sucked, but i liked Zealot's.

are there movies that you DO like? im guessing not many. perhaps youre spoiled on shakespear (oh thats a shame ;P) of course it may be that youve created something so great, with such attention to detail, that anything without that minute attention just doesnt do anything for you. care to comment on why youre repulsed by so many movies?

ok enough ranting for one post...

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

Greg, thanks for the ramble about taking your kids to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream". Nice to see you passing Shakespeare on to the next generation. Though Erin and Ben are not the only ones you're teaching/taught it to.

I have yet to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (though I saw the movie) performed, but I saw "Titus" last summer, and as you know "A Winter's Tale" with Keith David recently. I loved both of them and look forward to seeing more. Though originally (before "Gargoyles"), I thought of Shakespeare the way your average teenager thinks of it... as boring old books.

Through "Gargoyles" I learned to love and appreciate the Immortal Bard and his works. I planned to tell you this at the Gathering, but at the last minute I could not make it. I'll see you again next year though.

Not just Shakespeare, you inspired me to pick up a book.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your new posts on the very early documents for the series, and wanted to thank you for them. The one that particularly intrigued me was the one where Goliath (or the Goliath-equivalent character) was an artificial creation of an evil wizard (the original version of the Archmage?), and the rest of the gargoyles were, in a sense, his "artificial creations". That was certainly a bit of a surprise, seeing that the early days of the series were taking the slant on gargoyles that you finally rejected, that in the first draft stage they actually were statues brought to life rather than members of a pre-human race that arose through natural means.

I was also amused to see the "lock, stock, and gargoyle" phrase in there because I recall that it made it into the finished product, when Elisa uses it in "The Thrill of the Hunt".

At any rate, thanks for that post.

Blaise writes...

THE MIRROR

When this ep first aired I made a mistake in programming my VCR so I missed the entire first Act. I was quite happy when I finally did get a chance to see it (I got a more thourough intro to Puck, saw how Demona stole the Mirror, what was so special about the Mirror, and what the heck Hudson had meant by describing Puck as one of Oberon's Children--I've become much better educated since then). Despite this, I wasn't too lost with the other two Acts. In fact, even missing the first Act, I found myself thouroughly enjoying this ep!
Added Note: I always wondered whether Elisa's frozen image in the Mirror was intentional (it seemed too blatently obvious to be a complete mistake). And I never even recognized Elisa when she was disguised.

Elisa definitly looks good as a gargoyle. Maybe it's the skin color, ears, or just the way she's now dressed (I always thought Puck assimilated her jacket into her skin--the colors are slightly similar), but at the time, I thought she looked even better than Demona (and would THAT have been a blow to D's ego). As if it weren't enough for Elisa to be able to kick her can when they're both in the same form (as gargoyle and as human, Elisa always wins).

Puck himself is an absolute riot. I wondered who the wonderfully dry and sarcastic fellow providing that little elf's voice was. Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be Brent Spiner (I had only ever seen him as Data). He has great lines, as you pointed out, and makes for some hilarious hijinks. One of my favorite moments though is when Bronx comes at him. "Let's improve your looks!" Bronx turns into a wolf-hound. "Should've tried the chihuaua" (sp?).
I (along with Entity) am actually glad that Puck didn't end up breaking the fourth wall. Sure, it might have been fun, but it really does seem as if it would have been distracting to me, and would have damaged that "realistic" edge to the characters. I think Frank and Dennis (or was it Bob?) made a good call on that one (not to put you down or anything).
The inclusion of Puck in the series was a pleasant surprise--such a fun and interesting character from Shakespeare put into my favorite show and balancing out the more solomn and serious Macbeth. The revelation that there was a whole race of creatures just like him whetted my appetite for more magic.
I got the whole "switched perspective" bit--quite easily I might say. And I did enjoy some of the scenes that resulted in. All these gargoyles going about like normal everyday humans. Running from our heroes when they are changed to humans, and trying to attack the Trio. One of my favorite moments in the whole series there:
Brooklyn--"Hey, we're the 'monsters' remember? So..."
The Trio give pathetic human imitation growls and try to look threatening.
Attacking gargoyles--"Oh." Run away, screaming.
All the while I'm ROTFLMHO. I also enjoyed Hudson's line to Goliath when all the garg-peoples run away--"Are you sure this is a good idea?" Just the line, the situation, and Ed Asner's reading off it make it hilarious.

Another reason I like this ep so much is the focus put on Goliath and Elisa. Unfortunately, you and everybody else have already repeated all their great exchanges, and little moments. (sigh) So, there really isn't much more that I can add, other than how frustrating and sad their final moment in the episode felt.

Demona as a human in the daytime (I understood the spell right off). I cannot express to you how excited I was about this development. For quite some time I was hoping one of the gargoyles (or a new one) would have the ability to transform to a human during the day (just for fun, on my part). Demona worked for me, both because it increased her danger, and was full of wonderful irony. Her horrified "NOOOOO" and smashing the Mirror were great character moments. Since I didn't know about the tiers and tentpoles system then, I always wondered why it took you guys until HIGH NOON to bring her "human-problem" back into the picture. I also loved how her first impression of the sun, and Hudson's last, wistful line in the ep, show gargoyles' feelings about the sun. I don't know why, I just do.

This was the first ep I watched twice and more while I had it on my tape (and the first one I all but forced my family to watch). Excellent.

Abigail Thorne writes...

Hey Greg,

While reading the posts, I've noticed how a bunch of people have complained about the World Tour. They thought it was too dull, went on too long, neglected the rest of the clan back in Manhattan, etc. I get their complaints, and I can understand their point of view.

But I for one loved The World Tour and the changes it brought to a show that I already loved. It expanded and enhanced the "Gargoyles" universe while moving along certain plotlines crucial to the story. Here's a few of the things I liked about it:

1) Angela. Love, Love, LOVE Angela!! The World Tour introduced her, and through her adventures I got to know her and love her as much as the rest of the clan. Her addition to the show was great--she brought out a side of Goliath's character I hadn't seen before, introduced the rest of the clan to her unique view of humans (she was raised by them, after all), and made a interesting development to the Goliath/Demona relationship. Plus Angela was smart, kind, and beautiful, a sensitive being and cunning warrior all wrapped together. I also liked her relationship with Elisa, who had a better mother-daughter relationship with Angela than Demona did (just one more reason for Demona to hate her). Great character, great move for the show.

2) The Third Race. I got to see more members of the Third Race!!! Odin, Banshee, Anubus...I loved them all, and the episode with Oberon and Titania was a gigundo bonus! Then there was the New Olympians, Loch Ness Monster, and other legendary beings who popped in. As a rule, I love mythology, magic, and fantasy stories. Greek mythology in particular has always held a place close to my heart. So tuning in each day and learning that the gods, monsters, and mystical beings from various cultures were real and had an influence on the ("Gargoyles") Universe was very, very cool for me.

3) New and Old Faces. We got the Pack, TWO Coyotes, Sevarius, Thailog, Demona, Macbeth, Xanatos, Renard, and others I'm probably forgetting. But we also got the new gargoyle clans and a host of other interesting new characters who would have played a larger role in the series had it continued. I loved how old mixed with new and created fresh stories and new possibilities. It kept me excited from day to day as I waited for the next installment--who would show up next, someone old or someone new? Very cool indeed.

4) Exotic places. The show left Manhattan and got to explore the world. The different locations offered new challenges in their own rights as the group had to cope with various climate and cultural differences. Makes me happy.

There are others, but this post will get too long, so I shall conclude:

Did I miss the Trio and Hudson? Sure. Was I disappointed that I never got to see how Xanatos would take advantage of Goliath's absense to make trouble for the others? You bet. But despite that, I loved the World Tour and the changes it brought to the series. I looked forward to the new adventure each day, and I wouldn't have you take back any of them.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Siren writes...

The Mirror

This is just about one of my favorite episodes, if not THE fav. I loved everything about it. The animation, the style, the music, the story, the characters. As you said, this was the point when Goliath and Elisa's relationship is officially established. For one brief night, it was a perfect world...besides Demona running amok. Elisa was the most beautiful gargoyle I had seen on the show. I loved her colors and her face. The animators kept her features, but brightened them. When she first sees Goliath after her transformation and when she goes to glide, but gets afraid. Both those moments, I loved with the Elisa garg. I have always loved and respected the show for it's seriousness, but I do also like the humor points now and then. Puck was a wonderful addition to the show. He messes with Demona so much. It was great. Because unlike Elisa, Goliath, etc. there is nothing she can really do. I love Puck's one liners. He's a wonderful trickster. And this show got me to go out and read Midsummer's Night Dream and see the movies on it. I never cared much about Shakespeare till I saw this show. When Macbeth first appeared, just weeks later, my English class had to read the play, and I had a leg up on it. I knew the story was different, but I had the general idea. My reaction to Demona being human...laughing hysterically. I love the irony. She was to become the very thing she hated. I feel Demona is too far on her high horse to come down and admit she did have a torch still for Goliath, but I didn't know it till then. I think by the time Hunter's Moon came around, the torch was long dead, but her hatred for Elisa grew even more..."How dare Goliath choose another over me...and how dare it be a HUMAN of all vial creatures upon this Earth!"-kinda thing. All in all, I did enjoy this ep. It was a big turning point

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble-review on "The Mirror". I enjoyed that, and decided to give my own comments now.

I always liked this one, although the first time that I saw it, seeing Elisa and the other humans turned into gargoyles unnerved me just a bit. I thought myself that the Goliath/Elisa scenes were nicely handled (although, the first time I saw this episode, I don't think that I actually picked up on what was going on between them, which is a bit on the embarrassing side). And I thought that the bits about the characters' memories getting switched when they were transformed were well-done as well. (Good thing for the New Yorkers that Puck thought to handle their memories accordingly; I don't even want to imagine the results of all those humans in New York suddenly realizing that they've been changed into bat-winged creatures).

Brooklyn obviously must have taken his own advice from his conversation with Lexington in "Enter Macbeth" about Shakespeare's plays, judging from his "Midsummer Night's Dream" comment. (And Demona obviously must not have read that one, or she'd have known from the start that employing Puck to get things done isn't the wisest course in the world, considering the mess that he made of the whole Lysander/Hermia/Demetrius/Helena business. I've sometimes wondered if he was indeed telling the truth to Oberon about "All those Athenians look alike to me!" :) Just goes to show that Xanatos made a sound decision in choosing a lifetime of service from Owen over a wish from Puck).

Oddly enough, I missed that bit about "You serve the human" until AFTER I found out from "The Gathering Part Two" that Owen and Puck were the same, but then I started suspecting that "the human" was a reference to Xanatos even before you confirmed it.

And I agree with you about "changeling" being misused; properly speaking, it should refer only to faerie children in the human world like your version of Morgan le Fay. (Then again, Shakespeare misused the word himself when he applied it to that little Indian prince, who was actually the human baby swapped for a changeling, so you're in good company).

And I've sometimes wondered about Elisa's red jacket and shoes disappearing and reappearing myself.

One thing that I sometimes wonder about this one: what was all that medieval weaponry doing in the shop window that Demona smashed?

And I thought that Puck's little gift to Demona was a great touch for the series. It makes her much more dangerous (they can't use the same strategy on her any more that Hudson used in "Long Way Till Morning"), and inflicts upon Demona the ultimate irony: she, who hates humans so much, now has to regularly become a human herself in the daytime.

Oh, and I was delighted with the inclusion of Puck and the revelation of faerie-folk out there in this story. One step of "Gargoyles" that I was pleased by.

Thanks for the ramble.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is more of a ramble/comment than a question, but I thought that I'd print it here.

I've noticed that every so often, you get questions about whether the Illuminati are evil (the last one of which you answered with "Not in their opinion"). I've occasionally thought over the Illuminati of "Gargoyles" myself (an intriguing organization, and I was always a little sorry that it never really got that much development in the series, and hope that if you can get the series relaunched, that could change), and have one or two thoughts on the issue.

It's obvious enough that the Illuminati can't be considered utter saints. They do have decidedly unscrupulous members in their ranks such as Xanatos and Mace Malone, they operate the Hotel Cabal, they receive money from organized crime through blackmail(as revealed by Matt in "Revelations"), they helped Castaway set up the Quarrymen. Duval himself has undergone some sort of physical cost from the Grail for the Society's actions, indicating that what the Illuminati do can't be right from the Holy Grail's perspective.

But at the same time, we don't know, as yet, the full story behind the Illuminati. We don't know how characteristic of them such methods as the Hotel Cabal or the Quarrymen are; for all that we know, such underhand schemes may represent only a small percentage of the Illuminati's activities, and the bulk of them might be of a different nature. We don't know what its present goals are; it's entirely possible that the Society still follows Duval's original goal for it of "making things right".

The picture of the Illuminati that we have from the series (primarily "Revelations", the only episode that deals much with the Illuminati's present-day activities) isn't all that favorable to it. On the other hand, if all that we knew of Goliath and his clan was that they were strange bat-winged creatures that only came out at night, were fierce warriors, and delivered a raid on Cyberbiotics, we could find it all too easy to view them as dangerous monsters. Is it possible that we may be judging the Illuminati the way that the frightened humans in New York in "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" judged the gargoyles? Maybe our gut reactions to them are the correct ones, but we don't know for certain as yet.

michael writes...

did you know in your clips did it come from some other episodes like the one where brooklyn is killed how did he get killed?

Aris Katsaris writes...

Lighthouse in the Sea of Time:

As with all eps I saw this one with Greek dubbing - but in this ep there was something both unique and interesting/funny... I got reminded of it when in the memo you described the problem with the language of the scroll...

The thing is that though the entire ep was (as normal) dubbed in Modern Greek, when Macbeth starts reading the scroll he switches into *Ancient* Greek. At that time I had thought the original had Macbeth reading in Middle or atleast Elizabethan English, or some other kind of archaic-sounding language, which the translators simply rendered as ancient Greek. Only later did I realise that it was solely the translator's doing, with no corresponding change of language in the original...

It was a very nice touch, I think, and praiseworthy - it atones (atleast in part) for a couple horrendous mistakes in the dubbing of other eps... :-) But ofcourse that doesn't mean there wasn't any problem with it. Ancient Greek is far closer to Modern Greek, than Celtic is to English; nonetheless it's far enough that the first time I got only a very general sense out of the words, that Merlin was describing his first impression of Arthur... :-)

Ambrosia writes...

THE MIRROR!
Yeah, this one is totally one of my favorites.
On Brooklyn's line about A Midsummer Night's Dream, you said, "I hope we sent a few people to the library with that line." As I've mentioned, I was storming the library the next day.
Elisa's reaction to being changed into a gargoyle kind of didn't work for me. Sure, everyone *else* thinks the guys are monsters, but she's supposed to know better. But when she sees the New Yorkers as humans... as they normally are... she goes, "Everyone's been turned into a... a human!" As if being the "other" is something horrible. You might say that their transformation is what she was disturbed about, but she was happy about Goliath's "transformation". It's as if she thought that if the clan were the same as everyone else, that that would make everything better.
BTW a couple times you've said "suspend belief" or something like that. Are you quoting S.T. Coleridge? Shouldn't it be suspension of DISbelief?
Oh, about Elisa's disappearing jacket... There's a part in Grief where the camera pans back and shows our heroes standing ready to fight and... Elisa's not wearing the jacket. Just her short-sleeved black shirt. In the next shot, the jacket's back. Anasatis (my best friend) and I have a running gag about that. Whenever something mysteriously disappears in any cartoon, movie or whatever, we say that it's made out of Elisa's jacket. Hehe. "Wasn't that guy just holding a briefcase?" "It must be made of Elisa's jacket."
New subject: I was hoping you'd see the bearded gargoyle lady this time. I'm surprised your kids didn't pick up on it. Kids don't miss anything. *shakes head* She's there, I'm telling you!!!! Right after Demona says, "Is it done?" and Puck sighs, "Yes." Okay, I'll drop it.
Romantic stuff: Goliath thought he was being so sweet, promising to always catch Elisa when she falls, only in the next minute to have to be caught by her. But it's sweet in reverse too.
It surprised me at the time for Broadway to be the one talking about finding love. But it seems perfect now.
The very end exchange with G and E always gets me. Goliath trying to talk things out and Elisa dodging the conversation. The wind was a nice effect.
Sigh. I love this ep. Well, thank you for reading!!
Wait, one more thing... your wife's name is Beth. Was *Derek* Maza named after anyone?

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

A belated personal reaction to THE MIRROR. In the past, you've seemed curious as to how things came off to us. Did we get the implication here, or did we correctly interpret there. Well, here's something that really threw me initially. When Goliath describes the Third Race, he uses a lot of different nouns and adjectives. At first, I thought this new "Third Race" was going to be a contrived method of stuffing all other creatures of myth and fantasy into the series, in addition to the gargoyles, without having to give each one a unique background and history. In this way, you could bring in a unicorn, a minatour, an elf or an ogre, and you wouldn't have to justify them existing as individual species like the gargs, because they're conveniently blanket-labelled as the "Third Race." In short, I thought Goliath was describing a people more akin to the New Olympians, a collective, rather than a coherent species. Elisa's response was most responsible for cementing my conclusion, when she said, "Shapeshifters, elves, fairies, you mean they're real?" It sounds a lot like Elisa's interpretation of Goliath's speech was the same as mine.

As you could imagine, I felt quite betrayed and outraged. To forge such a unique, well-shaped universe and then just lazilly toss in everything else as if you said, "Well, on second thought..."

This wasn't the case, and the Third Race wound up being a wonderful addition to the series. But it took me a while to realize that. :)

Smelley writes...

Let me reiterate, you are a cool dude.
I too enjoyed the X-men movie. I thought most of your observations were pretty accurate, although I liked Summers, and disliked Storm.
I smiled at the inclusion of Gyrich and was glad it was there.
Personally, I really enjoyed seeing the opinions of people who weren't familliar with the franchise.

Smelley writes...

Comments on Lighthouse:

First of all, I thought this episode was irritatingly heavy-handed, but didn't mind because it was such a good message, and slick in it's presentation.

I'm afraid the opening sequence didn't come off nearly as well as you wanted it to.

I was very confused about Macbeth sealing the scrolls.

I liked Robbins, and was irritated that we didn't see more of him in later episodes.

But by far my biggest complaint regarding this episode was how Macbeth dismissed the scrolls as being worthless after realizing what they were. A learned man, especially one as cool as Macbeth, I would expect to value the lost journals of Merlin far more than Broadway.

Despite all my complaints, this was an enjoyable halfhour of television, and merely illustrates how high you and your team set the bar of excellence for yourself.

Oh, and I never made the Gilly--Gilgamesh connection. Neat.

You are cool dude, dude.

Cassandra writes...

Ramble on "The Mirror"

I've always had a thing about fae and I was bouncing up and down in my seat when you introduced them to the series. I also liked the fact that you used not only the "be careful what you wish for" but also "a fae is going to find the loophole if you leave it" and "if you piss a fae off they'll be sure to make you miserable". Demona should have done more research. But then she probably assumed that if the puny human Xanatos could control the Puck, she could too.

Moments I love: All of Puck's lines.

"Three races?"
"You know, Gargoyles, humans, and Oberon's Children."
"I thought everybody knew that."

Goliath's hand on his face moaning "No, no, no."

Broadway drumming his fingers on the floor after the Trio has crashed in the subway.

I also liked your observation in the first memo about guys being fundamentally stupid about romance. And the tender moment between Goliath and Elisa before Puck tears them apart works much better without dialouge.

I didn't realize the first time watching that Demona knew about the Owen/Puck and Xanatos connection. Looking back, the foreshadowing is hidden by Puck replying "Serving humans is fun. They have a sense of humor." It makes the situation they're refering to sound more like something Puck has done in the past, rather than a current situation.