Man Mountain writes...

Greg, You seemed confused on LSZ's use of "Zeroth." I first read it as ZEH-roth but then realized he meant
ZEE-rothe as in 0th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Is that what confused you as well or am I just... um, dumb?

LSZ writes...

As to the Zeroth thing; I'm not sure if you used it or not, but it seemed a logical thing to call the pre-First Race; thought of this while reading Asimov on his Three and then Four Laws of Robotics..

Todd Jensen writes...

I just read the latest "early development" memo. I found it another fun "behind the scenes" peek at the early history of "Gargoyles".

The two bits that particularly stood out to me were:

1. The gargoyles fondness for partying (which was also mentioned in the earlier memos). That obviously pre-dated Goliath's introduction into the project, given that I have a very hard time imagine Goliath partying. The trio (whose proto-versions WERE in the original comedy development, I recall), yes, but Goliath - I don't even want to make the attempt.

2. Xanatos's original as the several-times-great-nephew to the evil wizard (the original of the Archmage, the Magus, or both?). The thing that stood out to me here was that the nephew character struck me from the description as sounding like a conventional cartoon villain rather than the very memorable and convention-flouting David Xanatos. It makes it amazing when you think over what this character would eventually become.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the memos, to see what other treasures they might contain.

Ambrosia writes...

Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...

Calvina Richardson writes...

I just want to say that Gargyles is one of my alltime favorite cartoons and I am 25. I just want to know is there
a time or place that I can view Gargoyles outside of toon disney since it is not available in my area.

Scott Iskow writes...

You asked me (warily) why I didn't like "Leader of the Pack" as much as other episodes. Oh, gee, where do I start? ;)

First off, let me say that I didn't hate it. In fact, I think I liked it originally. This episode, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of being constantly rerun to the point of nausea. I'd get sick of the *best* of episodes if it kept being shown over and over. It eventually came to a point where I'd turn off the TV as soon as I'd hear the music that began the ep, (on a good day, I'd get through the entire first act before shutting it off).

Another thing that didn't quite work for me was the animation. Some parts looked good. Other parts looked like a sloppy version of Darkwing Duck or Tiny Toons. Just how big were Lexington's eyes, anyhow?

I also didn't buy that Lexington could be so vengeful. Didn't seem in character.

It was a nice touch to have Brooklyn giving him the "don't be vengeful" lecture, but later episodes depict Brooklyn jumping the gun just like Lex does here. Similarly, (a la "Hunter's Moon 1"), Brooklyn endangers the clan by giving up the element of surprise. Awful reckless for someone who both recognizes the pitfalls of vengeance and is the second-in-command.

Also, it may just be that I didn't like this episode as much as others because it was a Pack episode. The Pack is the closest thing the gargs have to cliched villains. I liked "Thrill," "Brother's Keeper," and "Upgrade," but disliked others like "Leader," and "The Green." Maybe I just find the Pack inaccessible as characters.

Criticism aside, I'm still a big fan of the show as a whole. There are an extremely small number of episodes that I thought were mediocre, (looking forward to your ramble on "Monsters", BTW). An excellent show like "Gargoyles" can get away with a few lesser-quality eps.

"Gargoyles" wasn't perfect. It was only damned good.

Now, before I offend thee further, I shall depart most hastily.

<leaves smoke trail in his wake>

puck40 writes...

Puck40's top five favorite episode list. Yeah yeah, I'm sure no one out there cares. But I'm telling for those people who are bored and just want something to read.... yeah thats it. So I'll put a quote in for each one that I think makes the episode *the* episode. (mind you, this isn't necessarilly the order I like the episodes in)

Enter Macbeth.
Why? look at my post praising if if you want. But this quote should justify all that is good.
~~"Its not you I'm after, your just a pawn, I want your QUEEN" - "Queen? We have no Queen" - "No?! then what about... Demona" - "You know Demona?" - "KNOW HER?! (doesn't Macbeth laugh so cool right here?) I *named* her... if I captured you, the last of your kind, she will come to free you, its *her* I want." - (twisted Goliath Thailog like laughter, guess he does know how to laugh maniacally) "Then you are a FOOL! She is our enemy... she wouldn't lift a talon to save us."

The Edge.
This almost doesn't make it due to the fact I hate broadway and he got lots of action shots. But ah... Xanatos.
~~"I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge."~~
If that line right there doesn't clench people into the episode... you all suck. His triumphs over losses. How his goal is always usually a small one that no one knows about, versus the fight that he fights. With freeing the pack and Coyote its all about Fox. Everything else is just subterfuge, yeah he kicks ass. And this episode was him, just wanting a self esteem boost. Something so trivial yet massively important! Spoon.

The Mirror.
Hey.... its Puck. its a really *fun* episode, and massively well written and acted besides the "cheesy" one liners. they were here... like the one that went something like "my strength has never depended on brute force, but on true friends" blah... or... "with Demona involved its more than (insert word lex or brook said here) its dangerous." But it was also the true *start* of the relationship with Elisa/Goliath. Very cool. which quote to choose from though... not any of the three bad ones... oh heck
~~"It was a ROMP indeed!" - "Spare me your gloating just go...." - "With out giving you something in return for all this merriment? Puck is many things, but never a poor guest!" - "Please.... Leave." - (an annoyed Puck right here) "You wanted to be your gargoyle self by night, and *not* stone by day? So be it."~~ (am sure everyone knows the spell by heart if your actually reading stuff in the Ask Greg.)

Vows.
The episode on my top five didn't use to be Vows, it was Avalon Part 2. Until I realized, when you go Time Travel wise... sure David Warners cool. But this episode so takes the cake. Again Xanatos is the "anti-hero", wouldn't say villian for this one. Whats his goal? To make sure he's rich, sure... but above all. He wants to impress his dad. Its such a childish thing, wanting to impress your dad, it always sticks with you. You don't want to be the dissapointment. So this was his alterior motive. And Petros... Clencher for this episode has to be this quote which by far gave me goosebumps first time I heard it.
~~"Whats this?" "A simple American penny, its not worth much now but in a thousand years.... Who knows? Its my wedding present to you, because its *all* you seem to care about."~~
yeah

And last but not least..

Future Tense.
Come on, you all knew it'd be here. I first saw it and was like... god... this is is so wrong but good!! and the end with Puck it was like. heheh, kickass! This episode was good for so many multiple reasons. The future depiction... the epic storyness. Xanatos killing Alexander, Hudson the first Hero of the war. That was SOOO cool. Lex the villian, Brooklyn punching out Goliath. Goliath showing he semi still had feelings for her by the end, hey... this was more the "old" her afterall, ne ne Greg? But as I said just above... I hated broadway. But I swear... this episode almost made me cry. The quote.
~~"Hold on Broadway... if you can last until sunrise you'll be healed." - "ohhh.... yes..... the sun. Can you see it Goliath... its.. beautiful...." - ".... goodbye.. my friend.."~~
(sniffle) that ones in the Avalon Archives.

Okay okay. the main reason I put this post up was to see if anyone else would put up there favorite top 5 or so episodes and "why" they were there favorite.

I'm gonna end this with one more quote since I've been doing them throughout... This one shows... that this show in general was more than a normal cartoon. It had depth.. continuity.. emotion... I give you the quote I think sums up that this series was truely unique.

Katherine: "Oh Magus... what have yae done?"
Magus: "Princess.. I-"
Katherine: "shhh... lay still now.. we'll get yae back tae th' palace an the-"
Magus: "n-no.... no katherine. i think i shall like to stay here.."
Goliath: "I owe you a great debt Magus"
Magus: "yooou... but, i cursed your clan"
Goliath: "You saved my children"
Magus: "hnn... oh I'm so tired... i think I would.... like to resst."
Katherine: "Yae *caenot" leave mae now."
Magus: "neveerr.. my princess.."
Katherine: "nooo Magus"
~and cue the music played over Katherine crying~
~on a note, most of these quotes are downloadable at http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org~

puck40 writes...

Puck40 writes (in reference to Enter Macbeth):
Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.

Greg responds...

Only the top three? :)

to which I respond. I meant episode!!!!

the show is by far my favorite American Cartoon(few have ever had continuity or intelligence, batman intelligence, x-men continuity, how many "combined" the two?). The storyline was beyond Excellent. The character development amazing. I mean, would've craved to see others more developed. Even Puck, who appeared in a mere 4 episodes, had a "fair" amount of screen time, evolved so far beyond a 2d character. He was shown how he was usually depicted..... mischievous, happy, fun. But he also had to him moments of annoyance at being forced to due stuff, a gift rejected, oh he'll get back at that. And less us not forget "Not Eternally!!!!" the panic in him there. I mean sweet! It measures up to Anime very easilly with animation at "moments" that could pass it in a heartbeat.

but meant episode. ^.^ hmmmm just for the hell of it I'll do another post in a sec

Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...

just read yer x-men ramble. so i thought id ramble a little ^_^ (twice in one day!! AAK!)

re: jurassic park and the lost world
okay anyone who knows me knows i LOVE dinosaurs. i love these movies because they have dinosaurs. but anyone who WATCHES these movies with me will immediately know that ive seen them at least 30 times (no exxageration) and i continually spout off the mistakes. editing errors, creative liberties and just plain MISTAKES. theres a HUGE list of them. the spelled the embryo label "stegAsaurus" instead of "stegOsaurus." they have the car fall into a revine as the t-rex pushed it over where it had torn down the fence, but WAIT? how did it tear down the fence if there is a revine? for that matter, where did the ground go that the goat was standing on? one could say that in the shot of the car going over, there is a patch of high ground on the left, but the t-rex actually pushed the car over where it had stepped out originally, hence the torn fense (am i clear on this? i dont think i sound like im making sense...) there are TONS of mistakes. but i like dinosaurs. so lets say i like the dinosaurs in the movie, more than i like the movie. i wanted to ask tho, have you read the books? dont read the lost world. it was written for the movie, and was badly done. but the original JP- was FANTASTIC. at least in my opinion. i read it 8 times. even better was Robert Bakker's Raptor Red. HIGHLY reccomend that one.

re: x-men
rogue's hair goes blonde in the end because her character in the comic book had a patch of blonde (or white, depending on what comic u read) hair on top of her head. i duno if that was originally a tribute to any other character or not. (i hadnt read the original comic. the only exposure to x-men i had was the animated serise, which i only watched a few of.)

re: comics in general
i used to read a lot of wonder woman (not the original stuff, but from about 1990-1991) and WildC.A.T.S. i LOVED the cats. Zealot was my HERO. but then the comic went all soap-opera and i was like "this sux." they broke up the original cast. its like "we have something thats doing well. lets CHANGE EVERY ASPECT OF IT, SHALL WE?" (soung familiar?) i did buy a few of Zealot's comics (#1-3 i think) and Grifter's (#8-10). grifters kinda sucked, but i liked Zealot's.

are there movies that you DO like? im guessing not many. perhaps youre spoiled on shakespear (oh thats a shame ;P) of course it may be that youve created something so great, with such attention to detail, that anything without that minute attention just doesnt do anything for you. care to comment on why youre repulsed by so many movies?

ok enough ranting for one post...

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

Greg, thanks for the ramble about taking your kids to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream". Nice to see you passing Shakespeare on to the next generation. Though Erin and Ben are not the only ones you're teaching/taught it to.

I have yet to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (though I saw the movie) performed, but I saw "Titus" last summer, and as you know "A Winter's Tale" with Keith David recently. I loved both of them and look forward to seeing more. Though originally (before "Gargoyles"), I thought of Shakespeare the way your average teenager thinks of it... as boring old books.

Through "Gargoyles" I learned to love and appreciate the Immortal Bard and his works. I planned to tell you this at the Gathering, but at the last minute I could not make it. I'll see you again next year though.

Not just Shakespeare, you inspired me to pick up a book.