A Station Eight Fan Web Site
as i am in england,our flipping(tm)english t.v studios have not show the intire series,so i missed out of half the gargoyles,i never even got to see goliath and elisa kiss.
i am intrested in the characters kai and his clan,could you tell me what kai is like as a person,and his clan
thanks you forever for thinking of this wonderful cartoon
Kai is a dedicated leader of the old school, literally. He is Bushido master in Ishimura. His clan has lived in peace and secrecy with the humans of Ishimura for centuries.
What else do you want to know?
Try to be specific.
In gargoyle society we see how males and females are considered equal like in Goliath's clan but is there
a gargoyle clan in which males are dominant?
In the gargoyles universe with the exception of Elisa's and Goliath's relationship has there ever been another love relationship between a human and a gargoyle
Ever's a long time. But it is FAR from common.
by "Ill met by Midnight" are Gabriel and Opheila allready chosen mates or do they decide that later? seeing as how Tom and Katherine are human and raised the gargs as brothers and sisters in a human fashion what is T and K's reaction to the coupling of the eggs? if i am wrong in how they were raised than correct me, please, but neither Tom nor Katherine was very knowledgable in garg customs, were they? did they raise the gargs in a garg way as best they could or just as they would human children and garg instincts took over for the rest?
Moonlight, not midnight.
You're mostly wrong. I think Tom and Katharine and the Magus realized that these eggs represented an entire generation, not just a bunch of siblings. Relationships developed. Some fraternal, others romantic. The humans attempted to mimic gargoyle customs, which the Magus had some information on.
And Gabe and Ophelia were certainly romantically involved by Ill Met.
What is Demona's view on homosexuality?
Why do I sense I'm about to get a whole set of questions in this mode, one per character?
I don't think it's a big issue for her.
i thought i'd share a interesting story:
i know alot of people write in here and in other sites, etc. about how Angela should have ended up with Brooklyn and not Broadway. Greg, you are so right in your reasons why Broadway and Angela ended up together and i'm happy to say that i knew they would, but the funny thing is why i believed that they'd end up together. when Angela first joined the cast i figured that she'd end up with one of the trio (although i did think there was something between her and Gabriel, but thats another story). of course, i wanted to know which one she would end up with so i began to think about these four characters. my analysis, correct, but flawed, was that Lex was too small in stature, Brook had a beak, so kissing was very hard to do, so it had to be Broadway. until i started posting here i didn't know that kissing wasn't a garg custom, afterall, Coldstone and Coldfire kissed in cyberspace, Elisa kissed Goliath, and Angela kissed all three of the trio on the cheek and later Broadway on the mouth. i thought, how can Brook kiss Angela with that beak! i know its stupid and i really should have learned that there were other factors but i guess i couldn't get past garg appearences, i'm such a human...
Yes, such a human. Angela's choice (if you want to call it that) had little to do with beaks or height or weight. It was the garg inside.
So the meeting between us and Kenner happened, most likely on June 30th, 1993. They brought this document to the table. It's very enlightening, I think, as to how a major toy company thinks. You'll notice that their "main concerns" didn't cause us to alter the show at all. Save for adding in a motorcycle and helicopter here and there. There were some things that they were concerned about that we were just able to reassure them about. That the Trio would not just be silly. That Xanatos would eventually get down and dirty with his own armor, etc.
My handwritten notes at the bottom were things we discussed at the meeting, also to help aleviate their concerns. "Franken-goyle" eventually became Coldstone. "X's Metal/Steel/Titanium Gargoyles" became the Steel Clan Robots. We were trying to show Kenner that we'd have some "male villain gargoyles" in addition to Demona.
MAIN STORY ELEMENTS
* Ageless goodness and loyalty vs. modern opportunism.
* Powerful myths.vs. powerful high tech "realities".
* Goliath vs. Demona.
* Goliath vs. Xavier.
* Goliath and his five ancient gargoyles.
* Elisa and her gargoyle team; especially Goliath.
* Xavier and Demona.
* Xavier and his subordinates.
* Huge, powerful, and ugly.
* Immortal by night; inert and powerless by day.
* Ancient, decent, loyal, and wise.
* Possesses leadership qualities.
* Visual power, strength of living gargoyles.
* Day vs. night power phases of protagonists.
* Humorous possibilities of gargoyle assimilation into contemporary New York.
* Traditional good vs. evil conflict.
* Severe visual contradiction of scary/ugliness as good (Goliath); deceptively normal is bad (Xavier, his gladiators, etc.)
* Limited number of heroic characters.
* Key human ally is female (Elisa).
* Key/only evil gargoyle is female (Demona).
* Industrialist as the evil adversary is very familiar and very difficult to translate into an exciting toy. A visually more powerful and more unique enemy would be preferable or increase his powers through armorment [sic].
* Lack of significant special hardware and vehicles for both good and evil.
* Described back story (especially enduring- love/hate relationship between Goliath and Demona) may be too complex for 5-year old boys.
* Four of the six gargoyles (Trio and Dog) appear less aggressive and silly than heroic.
* Breaking the Gargoyles kills them.
[My handwritten notes on the document follow:]
* Franken-goyle & Demona
* Pack / Xavier / Scarab Corp / Vehicles etc.
* X's Metal / Steel / Titanium Gargoyles
Time to Ramble...
My three year old son Ben watched the opening titles for about the five hundredth time. On the one hand, he made the point that it was getting dull seeing this same opening. He wanted me to fast-forward to the actual story.
On the other hand, he spent the time reviewing "the rules". How the gargs turn to stone during the day. How Goliath is the leader. Etc.
One thing we always cheated on was how Fortress-2 landed. There it is on the ground awaiting it's maiden voyage, and I just don't see any landing gear.
Vogel is introduced. This is another thing where I had to carefully explain my long-term intent behind the screen in order to get a model for the character that really looked like Owen but wasn't his twin. I remember a lot of people on the Disney Afternoon mailing list reacting negatively to Preston in this episode. Like he was a feeble imitation of Owen. Like we didn't know how to do any other kind of executive assistant. I was simultaneously amused and annoyed by those kind of comments. So now I'm curious. What was your initial reaction to Vogel? And what do you think of him now?
As usual, Travis has old-school attitude when interviewing his subjects. I like that. Makes him more of a character and not just a reporter place-holder.
Fox in casual clothes. With a very casual, yet strangely intense attitude. "I know what happens next," Fox says to David.
My six year old daughter Erin asked, "Why is she watching [Travis' report] like that?" She could tell something was up there.
And in fact, like UPGRADE, this was another episode where we were intentionally trying to show that Fox was David's equal. We show it physically in their martial arts work out. And we show it by giving her a ruthless and complex plot to take Cyberbiotics. In fact, in this episode, when you add in the fact that David is clearly in the dark about her pregnancy test, she seems to be a little equaler than he is.
Fortress-2 takes off. And Goliath sends us into flashback. This is flat-out padding. For some reason, though the script is the same basic length as any of our scripts, this one timed out short after story-boarding was done. (Most of my stories time out too long.) So we added this flashback. I think it was a mistake. It kills the stories momentum, and we already had the sequence later where Renard shows all the important scenelets to Goliath. Those become incredibly redundant. When you add in the "Previously on Gargoyles" opening, it was just too much.
Elisa reveals the show's Hill Street Blues influence by telling Goliath to "be careful out there."
Goliath gets attacked by cybots. As noted, any individual cybot is no match for him. But they have strength in numbers. I wanted to show that Goliath can still kick some ass when motivated. So the cybots shoot at him. And his only response is "That. Stings." Very intense. Unfortunately, I think sound-wise the line gets buried.
And that's a general problem with the episode. On a technical level this just wasn't one of our best. The animation isn't awful, but it's mediocre. Goliath's size relationship gets screwed up here and there. (Particularly in the brig sequences.) The story's padded by flashbacks. Our normally great sound team, didn't do the most inspiring job on this one either. It just generally feels like one that got away from us.
I still think there's some great stuff in it. And the revelation of Fox's pregnancy actually makes it something of a landmark (both for our series and for animated series in general), but the execution never quite lived up to its potential. Oh, well.
CONTINUITY & INTRIGUE
Did anyone remember Cyberbiotics before this ep? Had you ever wondered who Xanatos was stealing from in the pilot? We knew that Cyberbiotics abandoned their underground base, which became the home of the Mutates. Now we were rebuilding the air fortress and revealing that the CYberbiotics Tower is still in business.
Also, Renard mentions Gen-U-Tech. And the revelation that Sevarius and Burnett used to work for Cyberbiotics. Of course, Renard thinks that Xanatos stole Sevarius and Owen away. We know better. We knew even then that Sevarius is much better suited to work for a man like Xanatos than Renard. And of course, now we know why Owen was Xanatos-bound as well. But what did you guys think of that minor revelation at the time?
Renard's opinion of Xanatos is probably colored by his relationship to his daughter: "And that's the least that viper has stolen from me." Did you stop at that moment to consider what that meant and what he meant by the "My Anastasia. My Janine." line? Did anyone (from Renard's name, if nothing else) guess that Fox was his daughter, before the tag? Who did you think Anastasia and Janine were at that time? Or did Goliath's follow up line, "My angel of the night." distract you from considering these questions?
At this point, just before the Janine line, Erin (who has seen these before, but not recently) remembered: "That's Fox's daddy!"
Goliath has some cool lines here too. "I belong to no one." "I serve no master."
And Renard (voiced by Robert Culp to perfection) has some great lines too: "Not my fault, not my fault. You sound like every human employee I've ever FIRED." and "Take some responsibility."
What was fun for me, although maybe for no one else, was (a) to get some hard thoughts about both the need and the difficulty of maintaining personal integrity up onto the screen and (b) doing that by lecturing to Goliath, arguably one of the most "integrous" characters I've ever written. (b) served (a), by showing that even Goliath can be prone to slipping.
The thing is that integrity really matters to me. And yet, I don't know how much of it I exercise in my own life. I really do try. But it's so hard. And not because I'm a dishonest person, but more because I'm lazy. It's easier to shift blame, to tell white lies, etc. The alternative takes effort and vigilance. I think the rewards are immense, even if the costs are too. But I ain't kidding myself about the difficulty.
The martial arts scene. Reminiscent of the scene from the Edge where Owen toppled David. Here we hinted even more strongly that Fox is Renard's daughter. David is basically giving her permission to back out of the plan, to save face and exit, BEFORE she destroys her father. It's not that David really cares about Halcyon. I think he's thinking about his relationship to his own father. David likes to believe (at this stage in the series) that he's evolved beyond the need for a parental relationship. But "Vows" sort of demonstrates that his relationship with Petros is much more complex than that. David still needs parental approval and is somewhat amazed (at least subconsciously) that Fox does not. Again, in this episode, Fox is more than his equal.
And now the doctor calls with test results. David shows legitimate fear here for a moment. He's not thinking pregnancy. He's worried maybe she's sick or something. She enjoys toying with him. Maybe she's just in a mood. But her armor is on in force in this ep. We won't really get INSIDE Fox until "The Gathering" two-parter.
Finally, Goliath acknowledges his crime: "I was wrong." Cary had this great line for Renard: "I'm glad you're gargoyle enough to admit it."
Robert Culp and Peter Scolari were an interesting pair as Renard and Vogel. Culp was tough in the booth. Very precise. Very clear ideas about how he wanted to play the character. Tougher on his performance than Jamie and I were. And the results show.
Peter was a dream to work with. We spent an hour talking after the recording (about Busom Buddies, mostly). He's an incredibly nice guy. And he picked up the character right away. Despite the fact that we didn't have Jeff Bennett there to do a little Owen for him. He just got it.
Until the end, Vogel really plays Renard in this. He knows how much Renard hates whining blame-shifters, so he's constantly saying things like "You can place the blame on me if you like." in order to defuse any of Renard's suspicions.
But in a more subtle way, Renard is unwittingly playing upon Vogel as well. He doesn't intrude on Vogel's phone calls. He treats him with respect and gives him credit ("You and I built this ship together"). Insists that Vogel save the people in the tower, even if it means Renard's own life. We can see that Vogel was willing to take Fox's money for a bit of corporate espionage. But Vogel is not a killer. (It's important to see that he views Goliath as a creature.) This partially explains his turnaround at the end. (Which some people complained about.) All along he's been trying to get Renard to GET OFF THE SHIP. But Renard forces his hand. And when push comes to shove, Vogel likes Renard too much to see him die. "Mr. Vogel, I knew you wouldn't let me down." "You have that effect on people." And then Goliath basically bluffs him at the end there into confessing, screwing up their relationship.
But Goliath fixes it again. His last discussion with Renard sets up the reconciliation between them that must have taken place before "Golem".
At any rate, it's also nice to see Goliath make a NEW friend. This was important, because that has always been Goliath's goals. To make friends with humans on his own terms. Every once in a while, we had to show it working. Couldn't just be ONLY Elisa forever.
Ben weighed in at this point and said, "Daddy, I love Xanatos. And I love Fox." Of course, Ben and Erin dressed up as David and Fox at the last Gathering. In fact they dressed up in the martial arts outfits from this episode. Thus the affinity. I once played Theseus in the play THE WARRIOR'S HUSBAND. And Edmund in KING LEAR. It gave me an on-going affinity for both characters and awakened my interest in "The Bastard" archetype.
Now the tag. I'm usually pretty proud of our tags. They often advance the overall story as much as the entire episode. But this is one of my favorites. "Hello, Janine." "Hello, daddy." Was anyone ready for that? And her attitude: "Almost got you that time, didn't I?" The whole sense that Fox is in all this just for kicks. She's not as acquisitive as her husband. He'd always take the path of LEAST resistance to a goal. If Renard would give Janine the company, X would suggest she ask for it. But she doesn't care about the company. ONLY the game. X likes the game. But he's about RESULTS. All established in one little scene.
And of course that slick little pregnancy revelation. I think that was one of the most revolutionary and flat-out subversive things we did on the whole show. Was anyone ready for that? We had hinted at it with the "genetically compatible" line in "Eye of the Beholder" and obvioulsy with "It's your doctor... with test results." But I think it was quite the shocker.
And Fox is so tough. Pregnant and back on the hang-glider. I love it.
Okay, I'm done. You're turn. Ramble away...
I guess Elisa won't be taking Goliath to '"catch a Giants game" after all since they lost to the Ravens. Ha, Ha. So, Greg, which team were you gunning to win, or don't you care?
I personally don't care much for football, I just watch it for the commercials... :)
I'm afraid I didn't really care. I went to school with John Elway, so I'd been a Broncos fan for years, until he retired. But Giants/Ravens? I have no connection to either team.
when i asked if Claw will ever talk again you said, "I hope not". why do you hope that Claw will never talk again? his not being to talk is psychological not physiological, right? as in its something wrong in his head, not wrong with his physical body. what spin-offs would Claw make appearences in? would he be a main character in any of them?
This isn't exactly altruistic of me, but I believe Claw is a more interesting (and in some ways more expressive and unique) character as a mute. Yes, it's psychological. And I do believe he's adjusted since the initial trauma, but part of that adjustment involves adjusting simultaneously to not speaking. I don't see him speaking again, unless it's right before his death. (And, no I don't yet know how or when he dies.)
As for spin-offs -- assuming they ever get made -- look for him to appear in Bad Guys (because of his relationship to Fang). Perhaps in New Olympians and Pendragon. But mostly in the main Gargoyles series. I see him sticking pretty close to Talon and Maggie and the Labyrinth.