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I've got to say, Puck is one of my favorite characters (which is funny, because most of my favorite characters aren't the favorites of other people). Maybe it's because he reminds me of my cat, but it's probebly because he has something I've never been very good at getting: a decent sense of humor. Oberon on the other hand..... It took me a while to warm up to him. I like him now though. Because I'm a person who has been taught humility since the age of seven, I think he's waaaaaay too proud. My mom thinks he's a bit of a baby, but she's amused by it. Maybe as a phycologist, she sees something I don't. The following observations and questions are about the two afore mentioned members of the Third Race. I guess they count as one topic....
I was suprised by Oberon's harsh punishment for Puck in 'The Gathering' (expecialy since HE was the one at fault), but I guess his banishment from Avalon could have been a 'So There' kind of thing. In my mom's oppinion (She's a fan too, by the way) Oberon was like 'Oh, it's BORING, is it? I guess you won't mind never coming back then....' and Puck was like 'Well, actually, I was just sort of..... whining.' Later, I thought I hit the moral of the story and told my mom (who was surprised I hadn't gotten it earlier). Our conversation went something like this:
Me: Mom! I think I got the moral of the story!
Me: Your pride doesn't just hurt you; it hurts the people around you!
Mom: ..... Duh.
Yeah... now for some real questions.
1. You said Oberon probebly still cares for Puck. What about Puck still caring for Oberon? After a punishment like that, (which I figure was done more for Oberon's pride than anything else) I might be a little bitter.
2. If this wasn't fair, why didn't Titania say something? Is she still upset about the donkey thing? I can't say I blame her, but we're talking about a way extream punishment here!
3. Will this state of tension be adressed in future stories?
1. Bitterness and feeling aren't mutually exclusive.
2. If you say so. Titania got her way, largely though.
At Gathering, Part II, when Petros Xanatos shoot and wounded Oberon(deadly, in my opinion) with an iron arrow, why Oberon didn't died? Is he "just" valnerable to iron, or can die by it?
For example, if you cut Oberon's head with an iron sword, would Oberon died?
He can die from prolonged exposure, but assuming the exposure isn't prolonged to the point of death, he can recover by having the exposure "removed". (Think Kryptonite, for lack of a better term.) So the answer to your first question is both.
Having said that, I did feel like we cheated a bit in Gathering II.
And I would think that if you managed to cut off Oberon's head with an iron sword, he would in fact die... assuming he didn't see it coming and removed his own head to dodge the blow.
THE GATHERING, PART TWO
I'm having a difficult time figuring out where I want to start with this episode.
The revelation of "Owen-is-Puck" is, of course, the high point, but I also find myself thinking about the battle with Oberon.
Oberon is, without a doubt, the most powerful adversary the gargoyles have ever had to face--and this time he's at full power! However, I find his more subtle uses of said power to be the most effective. I mean, he became a giant and while that's definitely threatening and awe-inspiring, it didn't help him much in any practical sense. But when he actually calms down ("Anger...clouds my judgment.") he really does become unstoppable. Even drained and withered, he proves more than a match for our heroes. The thing with the cape absolutely rocked, of course, but my favorite trick is when Goliath leaps at Oberon...and goes right through him (a trick that will be repeated in VENDETTAS). Oberon then hurls Goliath with a gesture (and a pretty cool line, "This altercation is OVER."). Even at the end, Fox's magic blast doesn't stop Oberon by overpowering him (in fact, when he comes flying back in he seems about ready to kick everyone's ass and take names--actually, I find his "I...have had...ENOUGH!" kind of funny as well as foreboding). In the end, Oberon isn't really defeated...he just changes his mind (thanks to said magic outburst and some choice words from Goliath).
One thing I really thought about here was that, despite banishing Puck and giving a rather curt/foreboding farewell, Oberon seems willing to let bygones be bygones. Partially due to your thoughts on Oberon, Greg, I've actually started to see the more magnanimous side of Ol' Blue Skin.
Over the years, I've come to think better of Oberon than I did during the initial airings. Now I think he's pretty cool.
This viewing, during the gargoyles's battle with Oberon, I noticed how quickly Lex and Hudson got taken out. Especially Lex, he didn't get off a single attack. At least Hudson got to whack at Oberon's hair with his sword (for all the good that did).
I can see one of those "cartoon" moments you mentioned, with Oberon swatting at the gargoyles like flies. I actually think it works as a "comic relief" moment before Oberon brings the statues to life.
That "stone figures" bit was actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, I liked the guy with the hammer and he destroys himself to take out Broadway (speaking of which, for Broadway that must have hurt!).
Count me as another who loves Xanatos's weak attempt to cover his saving Broadway.
"It's incredible how often that move works." I LOVE inside jokes like that.
The Iron Clan was a nice variation on the Steel Clan. I mean, we (my brother and I) knew they were bulkier than the SC, but only occasionally did I really notice just how much BIGGER they were (during the chase down the side of the Eyrie Building, you see a now human-sized Oberon go by, followed by the Cybots and a gigantic Iron Clan robot). I'm also absurdly pleased by the "launching points" for the Iron Clan...it makes me wonder how much of the buildings surrounding the Eyrie Xanatos owns or rents.
I loved seeing Renard come to the rescue. Renard sounds stronger here, to me, than he has since OUTFOXED. His words aren't as broken apart as they were even in PART ONE. I like this touch. I'm a little sad that the last we see of Renard in this is "I've failed him." It would have been nice if he were a part of the little "victory celebration" at the end. Heck, it would have been nice if Petros could have been a part of it--and his exit wasn't as dignified as Renard's. Petros just got knocked out and forgotten.
I always figured that while the iron harpoon hurt Oberon, the iron bell would basically rip the very fabric of his being apart. After all, at the right pitch, sound can shatter glass.
And finally we come to the big revelation. Any disappointment I felt at my brother being right was curtailed by my delight at this excellent little twist. And Puck's explanation for playing the straight man made perfect sense to me.
When I first saw Vogel, I thought he was just an in-joke, even after he became a character in his own right. Little did I know you guys had strong reasons for his similarity to Owen.
It still surprises me that Puck actually had his creations rough up Oberon. Dang, but the little guy's ballsy.
I just love "Oberon does not compromise...Oberon COMMANDS!" Mostly, I love it for Terrence Mann's reading of it. It's just...wow.
We all kind of figured that Fox would display some magic at the end. It was practically a given. However, Puck's reaction to it (which you've already quoted) is priceless.
I was a bit surprised when Oberon banished Puck. I have to admit, I hadn't expected that. And I actually kind of felt sorry for the little elf afterwards, but...he did kind of ask for it.
I was surprised and pleased when Xanatos thanked the clan like he did. Of course Goliath (ascribing to the "Fool me once..." school of thought) is suspicious. I like the actual sad look on Xanatos's face when Goliath snubs him. But then Goliath smiles as he talks about "the transforming power of a child's love." Xanatos may have been the "main villain" for the first season and most of the second, but already that title doesn't fit him as well as it once did.
Other little things:
-I love Oberon's exasperated "Now what?" when the Air Fortress shows up.
-I also liked seeing Oberon's giant footprints in the street (who's going to explain THAT?).
-You guys had Petros notice Oberon's "shrinkage." Only after we the audience had seen it happen twice. I like that, although the characters notice something quickly, they don't see it the instant it starts to happen.
-Hudson's "You've had quite an influence." I find Ed Asner's reading of that intriguing. I like it. I can't say why...it just struck me.
-After having been a major part of the World Tour, Bronx just sits this one out. He probably missed his soup bone.
I'll admit, I believed Titania when she indicated things had gone according to her plan. I don't know what she whispered to Fox (and have never asked), but I do start to see Fox smiling before the camera cuts away.
And yes, Greg, this is the first, last, and only time that Broadway calls Angela "Angie."
Okay, I think that covers THE GATHERING. Next...
I'm glad you like Oberon. I like him too. You just have to walk a mile in his shoes to begin to understand him. NOTE: I'm not being an apologist for him or approving of everything he did. But I think it's worth trying to understand him, see things from his PoV.
How does Oberon maintain his rule over his Children? So far we've seen that many of them have abilities that could probably kill Oberon like Anubis's ability to manipulate life and death and Puck's ability to rewrite reality or is Oberon just much more powerful than the combined might of his children?
Than the COMBINED might... no, I doubt it. But do you really think that THAT group could agree on a replacement?
And to address your specific examples, Oberon is clearly more potent than Puck. Puck can't rewrite reality. He can simply send a false vision. SO not the same thing.
And we've seen how rigid Anubis is with his powers.
Hi.....uhhhh.........hi again.......I have some more questions about Oberon and Titania...but they refer to the show, not the play. So I put up a separate post so it could go under a separate...thingy.
1. When was the changing boy born in your show? (I KNOW....I used changeling last time!!! I SPELL BAD!!!....or wuz I right last time...? ARG!!!)
2. Is the boy a grown-up now in the show?
3. What did Titania think of the play "A Midsummers Nights Dream?"
4. So....I was wondering......what did Titania whisper to
Fox?.................Uhh......Mr. Weisman.......hello?.....hrm, where did he go?
Oh my, the doorbell! I have company! Yay!
(Opens the door to find Greg Weisman standing at the door with a baseball bat)
Oh my goodness! Its Mr. Weisman at my house! Have you come to tell me what Titania said?
Greg: (lightly tapping the bat up and down on his hand) Yeah....something like that...Are you familiar with the story "The lady, or the Tiger" by Frank R. Stockton?
Greg: Well, its sort of like that.
Greg: And for asking me that question in the first place....(raises the bat)
Uh, oh.....erk!..... :)
Im just being stupid right now. Thanks again.
1. Changeling. And I haven't placed this event on my timeline as yet.
2. I'm not saying.
3. I'm sure when she first saw it she was far from pleased. I like to think that she's matured enough now that she's come to appreciate its finer qualities.
4. <cricket chirp>
Hello! (snickering).......Ah, another glorious day to be alive!!! What an honor to live in such a world we live in!! :)
Well Im back, with a vengeance.
I have to tell you something, when I twas a little girl watching "The Mirror" and hearing (learning) about "A Midsummers Nights Dream", I was curios and whipped out my mothers "Completed works of William Shakspere" book and tried to read it. But.....I was to young (or stupid...?) to understand it, so I tried it again when I was 16 and really enjoyed it! Also, when I bought the second season DVD set and watch "The Mirror", it re-kindled my interest and I re-read it. WHY is I telling U this? Well, I have a question about the story that I still (unfortunately) don't get... :(
1. WHY did Oberon want the changeling boy? And......
2. Why wouldn't Titania let him have the boy? (I know that Titania and the boys mother were friends...is that why?)
I hope that I don't sound too stupid...but I just don't understand that part. Well, that's my Shakspere Q. Have a nice, happy, and all-around good day!
1. I have this theory that the boy was his son. Many scholars theorize that he had a romantic interest in the boy. Others point out that fairy lore is just FILLED with fairies capturing and keeping small children.
2. That's it mostly, I think. I also believe there's a certain perverse satisfaction in keeping something from Oberon that he wants. And like Oberon, there's the fairy tradition of capturing and keeping small children.
Was Merlin's conception/birth intentional on the part of Oberon? What I mean is did Oberon deliberately seek out to have a son who was half mortal in the case of Merlin?
I mostly think he was hot for Merlin's mom.
While utilizing the nifty SEARCH function, I decided to look up responses for "the whisper". I came up with this:
Question received on Mon, August 07, 2000 03:01:14 AM
1.What did titania whisper into fox's ear at he end of the gathering part2
1. Do you think they'll be wondering about this in Ask Greg four years from now?
Response recorded on August 23, 2000
And given the most recent Q&A on that subject was recently posted.... 4+ years after that Q&A was done.... I think your answer holds true.. heh :) We were still wondering that in Ask Greg.. in 2004 :)
The fandom that you didn't anticipate has bugged you about something that you didn't think you would have been bugged about.
Keep it up, it's fun being confused, etc. :D
My pleasure. (Most of the time.)
I was reading your answers to the Oberon/Titanina Family trees (November 2004) and two things caught my attn:
"Lord Oberon married Titania (who became Queen Titania after Mab was overthrown). (Note: Oberon intentionally did not take the title of King. Retaining his "Lord" title is his semi-skewed attempt at being more... egalitarian.) "
-When you say that Titania 'became' queen while Oberon chose not to 'take' the title king- do you mean that Oberon's claim came from Titania and not from Queen Mab or his conquest of her? (Queen Mab is his mother, right?) Is Titania queen or queen consort?
I know in many cultures that seem to have inherited kingship the facts are actually differnt. Take Macbeth, for example: Luach was probably the first son to directly inheret a crown from his father in Scottish history. Macbeth's claim was as good as Duncun Canmore's, but Gruach came from an older line than either. Are Oberon's children similarly not straight forward? With near imortality succession probably doesn't come up all that much anyway.
You also wrote:
"Oberon also has at least two sons by mortal women: Merlin and the changeling boy from Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream". "
I cannot believe I didn't notice you saying that before! When I read/saw Midsummer, (one of very few plays I can't get into while reading but love to watch), I always assumed the boy was the mortal child of a beloved, all-to-mortal, devotee of Titania's. The complete disregard for the boy shown by Oberon stealing him away (both physically and magically from Titania's attention) always left Oberon a bit too scummy for me to be fully happy with the 'all the couples were reunited and lived happily ever after." (Though, I'm told if my knowledge of mythology were more complete I would know the royal mortal couple don't end so happily, or at least longly, either.)
If the boy was in fact Oberon's, than the disregard might be feigned as a ploy to get him from Titania. Oberon is immediately made less scummy.
Barage of questions:
1.In the Gargoyles universe, how true to the Shakespeare is the 'true' story?
2.Was Titania aware that the child was her husband's?
If so, was her care for the boy as innocent and real as they seem (to me) in the play?
3.What made Oberon father a child with a worshiper of his wife? Coincidence? Meaness? Was she a worshiper of Titania at the time or did that come after?
4.I think, but do not remember clearly, that the woman did not die in childbirth. What did she die of, and could Oberon have been of help preventing it? Did he try?
(My pet theory is that Titania has tried to help Renayrd out a bit in his illness, but there is only so much she can do without being obvious. And even if she were to use blatant magic, there is still only so much she can do. Medicine and healing, though we take it for granted, is still 'big magic'.)
5. What ever did happen to the changling after the events of the play? Or, if you don't want to go into specifics, is he alive or at least have a unnaturally long life?
Apropo of very little- last summer I caught a rather good preformance of Midsummer in a Shakespeare in the Park(ing Lot). (Not as good as their Richard II that they seemlessly reordered to make the first half as flashbacks during the second.) Uneven. but with real flashes of brillance. Instead of dual roles, they had the traditionally dual roles played by exchangable pairs. The Oberon and Titania I caught had fantastic presence.
Titania is Queen Consort, technically, but it's also a position of not a little authority at the top of the feudal pyramid, answerable ONLY to Oberon... and even he is somewhat reluctant to order his Queen around. Note that when the Weird Sisters report that everyone but Titania and Puck have arrived for the Gathering, Oberon immediately states that Titania may come and go as she pleases.
In any case, Oberon's claim to his throne comes from both being the son of Mab and being the one who took Mab down. It does not come via Titania.
As for your Midsummer Questions, this is a story I hope to tell one day, so I'm going to be stingier...
1. We'll have to see.
2. I prefer to leave the answer to this ambiguous.
3. She was already a worshipper. His motives... are also best left ambiguous for now.
4. I'm not revealing this now.
1) Why did the producers of the show go with iron as the general weakness for Oberon's Children when many of them like Raven, Odin or Anubis were figures from mythologies that didn't see iron as a sort of "god kryptonite". In fact the Fenris wolf from norse mythology was able to snap his iron chains and had to be finally chained with a magical one and many of the gods and demons of the Far East didn't seem to have a problem with iron.
2)In relation to the first question why was Oberon the king and lord of the third race that included such beings as Odin and possibly Zeus and other godhead when in the traditional stories he was just a minor king of the fairies or elves?
In general I'm just rather curious why you put so many of the qualities found in fairies and elves such as Oberon and the iron weakness onto mythological figures such as Odin, Coyote or Anasi which in the end from my point of view kind of diminishes the gods.
1) When combining so many mythologies, certain choices have to be made. Since we were putting a traditional "fairy" figure like Oberon at the top of our feudal pyramid, using iron made sense. I understand your objection, even sympathize with it, but I also don't regret our decision.
2) Well, a short answer is that we wanted to diminish the gods a bit... or put another way, we wanted to create a unifying system for them all. A feudal system. Oberon and Titania got priority, because in general SHAKESPEARE got priority. Titania, as far as I know, is not a traditional figure but an invention of ol' Will's. I've always freely admitted to being a Shakespeare fanatic, so his characters, including Macbeth, Oberon, Titania, Puck, the Weird Sisters, etc. were always going to have featured roles in this series. Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference, and I was the guy in charge. That doesn't make me RIGHT in some transcendent sense, just means that I had the right to create the universe I wanted to play in. So I did.