Comments for the week ending July 22, 2002

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PATRICK - Good point. Though I suppose that if humans can view gargoyles with scorn and contempt, while still using them to guard their homes, then such a dichotomy is plausible.

(And, to be perfectly fair, it's worth pointing out that there is an alternate theory that the purpose of gargoyles atop medieval cathedrals was not to scare the demons off, but to demonstrate to the church-goers the fate of evil-doers, the legend here being that gargoyles were believed to be sinners converted into monstrous forms and then turned to stone for eternity).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 21, 2002 07:04:43 PM
IP: 65.57.59.77

Isn't it a flawed argument, though, to say that organized religion in the Middle Ages was anti-gargoyle when at the same time the Church was putting up monumental cathedrals everywhere adorned with stone gargoyles, ostensibly for the purpose of guarding the building and scaring Satan's minions away?

There seems to be a great dicotomy if not an outright conflict of logic there.
Patrick Toman
Sunday, July 21, 2002 06:32:03 PM
IP: 67.38.243.8

AIRWALKER - True, I agree with you that most of the public probably don't see the gargoyles as literal demons. But the way that I see it, the fact that the gargoyles' physical features are of a sort that traditionally have negative connotations to humans - alongside the fact that gargoyles in general have a pretty bad reputation - is definitely not going to influence the public favorably towards them.

It's a bit like how people feel about wolves and snakes, I suspect. A lot of the reason why they have something of a "PR problem" is that they're generally portrayed as evil in legends; people may not consciously believe the legends, but they do serve as a subtle influence on their perceptions.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 21, 2002 06:19:27 PM
IP: 65.57.59.77

****Blaise walks through the Room, his mind too preoccupied with searching a list to do any big entrances.**** Been something of an absentee this week, I'm afraid. My time at my temp position was extended another two weeks, eating up my free time but ensuring I get some more money.

SOME GOOD NEWS> I start the Advanced voice-over class at Blupka next Tuesday. Really looking forward to this (have been for nearly a year).

A QUESTION FOR ANYONE LIVING IN LOS ANGELES> (narrow I know, but...) I'm trying to find myself a new apartment or something by the 7th of August. Any advice you folks could give me?

I wish I could comment on the whole Stone Sleep discussion, but I've really got to start my apartment hunting in earnest (I only have two and a half weeks left!!). I'll come back when I can. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise walks out of the Room, once again totally engrossed in his list of potential domeciles.****
Blaise
Sunday, July 21, 2002 01:43:31 PM
IP: 128.125.236.95

Airwalker> I think you missed the whole point of "Rewakening." Throughout the first season, the clan was going against the essence of their being: to prtoect. That whole show was almost dedicated (whether the staff knew it or not) to bring their essence into question. Goliath almost responds enthusiastically to the cop motto. "Protect whom? Protect what?"

The clan knew they were supposed to protect something--but througout the first season they were protecting Nothing. I.e. Goliath was slipping into the nothing (to pull Heideggerian terms out); and when one is pulled into the nothing, the very essence of their being is revealed. He realized (and most ultimately at the brink of death) what it IS a Gargoyle does. He had been living in the absolute Negation of the gargoyle way of life: to protect nothing.

Goliath knew "protecting" the clocktower was not even close to protecting anything. Protecting that led and deepend them toward the protection of nothing.

<<Protecting your personal home, property, and family are natural instinct; on that I have no disagreement.>>

But protecting becomes the Gargoyles' Everything--almost, at least. I contend that the London clan had lost this essence since they had limited themselves only to protect their shop. As opposed to the Ishimura clan, who went beyond their own personal home into the town, making the town their protectorate. And they were in harmony and happiness. Yes, it's arguable that Griff was their main source of greif, but there was more to it than that. For over sixty years, thay harbored that hate just over Griff? No, Griff was just the excuse, it went beyond that. Not only was it Griff that angered them so much, but it was their Nihilation of their being (meaning, they slipped into what Goliath had slipped into at first, protecting Nothing). In fact, in the end of M.I.A., the London clan decides to protect more than just their shop. Their faith in being-as-gargoyle was restored when Griff was returned, and they saw their Nihilation.

Of course, none of this is made explicit, I am only paralleling this with "Reawakening," which, though the plots of the show are differant, the themes are bascially the same.

To go back to "Awakenings," after the clan is destroyed, Goliath says "We will save the humans, and we will have our revenge!!" He realizes (even in this time of destruction) that it is still his duty and instinct to protect, even those who hated his kind. Of course, only the first part of his statement is accomplished.

<<NYC protection by a Gargoyle Clan only happened when they made a conscious decision to take it upon themselves to do something.>>

I think I covered this already earlier in my post, but I will try to be clearer. This conscious decision was made because of what they had dwindled down to. They were not living as gargoyles; they were living as just normal people would. Goliath realizes this in "Reawakening" and sees that his being-as-gargoyle was no longer anything; they were just maintaining survivle. Yet the true Gargoyle instinct overcame the survival instinct, and that's why Goliath made the decision to protect Manhatten. In fact, he even says the clocktower is merely where they sleep; Manhatten is their home.

You know, I think after I get my PhD, I am seriously going to write a book on "Metaphysics, Phenomenology, and Gargoyles." >:D Sad, I know; but there are just so many metaphysical and embodiment themes in themes in the show that I would HAVE to do it. >:)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:42:09 AM
IP: 24.219.165.75

TODD - You wrote: [Again, since it's also being used to submit responses to Greg's "episode rambles", shutting it down is only an option if we put the Gargoyles DVC on hold until Greg gets caught up answering the questions.]

How about giving Greg a feature that will allow him upon seeing a question that is a repeat and already answered in the archive multiple times to just push a button that will automatically submit it with the response of "Check Archive/Read FAQ". That could be a way to speed up going through the backlog without deleting any of these multiple repeats. (And if this feature is added, you can always put up a few other automatic response buttons for him - one for "I'm not answering this at this time" and one for "Not Sure" and a couple for his more short less random smart ass responses :-) How about it? This way, with the click of a button, he can speed through a month or two of repeat backlog in an hour or two.)

You wrote: [I think that one of the big problems with the way that his plays get taught is that, all too often, one of the methods is to take one of the famous speeches, placing it entirely out of its context, and treating it as if it was simply another poem for memorization.]

Suprisingly this just wasn't the problem that I ever came across in high school. The teachers, for all of their problems with the material, never taught just parts of it that were out of context. They usually taught an entire book at a time. That just happened to suck all the life and interest out of it. In comparison when I got to college, the professors in the required English and Literature classes there were the exact opposite. They breathed life into the material. (Although some of it was give and take. Instead of Shakespeare being drained of interest, this time it was the Chaucer. :-) )

You wrote: [Gargoyles have a lot of physical traits that humans have come to associate with demons and evil spirits;]

In the Middle Ages where civilization was religiously oriented, I could see this being a major issue. It would be one of the major reasons that Gargoyle Clans basically were purged around the time of the Crusades and wiped out from the collective memory of the West.

(Although considering that there were Gargoyles wandering around in some numbers in the GARGOYLES universe I have to wonder if the belief that they were demons was really that strong. I think that it was there but wouldn't be that big a deal among the population as long as there were enough Gargoyles to interact with and see that they aren't really supernatural. However as the Gargoyle population declined (and was matched by a renewal of religion in Europe in particular) this might have gotten to be a greater opinion as memory and ignorance mixed. It is an amazing bit to consider that most hellfire and damnation demon stories that stick in the Western mind were either biblical or popped up in the mid middle ages, at the exact time in the GARGOYLES universe when Gargoyles disappeared from view completely.)

You wrote: [even in more modern times when most people don't literally believe in demons, the fact that, nine times out of ten, when a creature is given those traits in a story, it's portrayed as evil]

But I wonder if it is such an issue in modern times? For some I could see it being an issue but the major perception post HUNTERS MOON seems to be more scientific and realistic, in that they are just a new breed of animal that happens to be running loose in a major city. If it were demons then the city would be under martial law and the army would be hunting them. The only way I can see this being kept to the cops and a task force is that its considered an animal control problem. Goliath's problem after 1996 isn't convincing people that he's not a demon, but convincing them that he is a sentient being, equal to Humans and not just a slightly more intelligent animal than say an ape.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, July 21, 2002 09:32:30 AM
IP: 12.88.89.45

Comic-Con notes this time> For those of you who have come to panels I've been on in the past (2000 and 2001), there weren't any panels that were a "fit" for my skills this year. Most of the animation panels are company-sponsored, versus being organized by the Con. Those the Con organized are geared more to artist, and my speciality is the non-artists of animation. But I still will be at Comic-Con all four days, I traditionally book my hotel for all four main days way in advance figuring I'll be involved in programming. Now it's too late to cancel/change without penalty cost, and I still can network with a lot of people in hopes of getting that still elusive permanent job.

Anyway, if any of you do pass through the Con August 1-4 and see me attending panels (I'm still going to be reporting on it for digitalmediafx.com where I write articles), or on the Exhibit Hall floor, please say hi!
Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Sunday, July 21, 2002 01:25:07 AM
IP: 198.81.17.151

2002 Gathering Staff> I was not able to attend the Gathering this year, but I did pre-order three(3) t-shirts (all of them sized 3x). I e-mailed you about this, and you said it would be no problem to mail them to me. However, I have not received them yet, and someone else on this forum has. I was just wondering if my shirts were on the way or if you just need a reminder.

Thanks!
Xeennexx
Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:14:23 PM
IP: 207.43.108.138

EllenSfan - Goodness, thanks. That's very kind of you. (I did of course add that remark about Katherine with tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

Airwalker - The more I read your correspondence, the more I appreciate your insight. The "nameless beast" concept has more than a little ring of truth about it, and the lack of details surrounding the death of Malcolm indicates another perfectly valid explanation. One of the reasons I got addicted to this series in the first place was its extraordinary attention to detail and to logical progression, and your answer supplies both. Thank you.

Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Saturday, July 20, 2002 06:50:53 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

ASK GREG: Again, since it's also being used to submit responses to Greg's "episode rambles", shutting it down is only an option if we put the Gargoyles DVC on hold until Greg gets caught up answering the questions. (Incidentally, I checked this morning, and the last time that Greg answered an actual question was on June 12, over a month ago. Everything that he's submitted to "Ask Greg" since then are rambles).

SHAKESPEARE: I think that one of the big problems with the way that his plays get taught is that, all too often, one of the methods is to take one of the famous speeches, placing it entirely out of its context, and treating it as if it was simply another poem for memorization. Particularly since these speeches get so divorced from the story of the play that they're in that they're made to look more like a philosophical dissertion in blank verse, in a way that must wind up giving many of the students the impression that Shakespeare's plays consist of little more than people saying over and over again, "Forsooth, I say that the meaning of life is, etc. etc. etc." Under such circumstances, it's small wonder that people wind up finding him dull.

ANTI-GARGOYLE PREJUDICE: I think that one of the most crucial features here is this: gargoyles have a lot of physical traits that humans have come to associate with demons and evil spirits; they're active only at night, turn to stone in the daytime, have batlike wings, fangs, clawed hands and feet, horns (if often small ones), etc. That doesn't do much to make humans feel comfortable around them, and even in more modern times when most people don't literally believe in demons, the fact that, nine times out of ten, when a creature is given those traits in a story, it's portrayed as evil (and the traits are even generally treated as a means of making it clear to the audience that it's evil) would certainly condition humans to see gargoyles in a bad light. Except for the Disney animated series itself, how often are gargoyles done in books, movies, television, etc. as anything other than evil monsters? (I've seen that "gargoyles playing baseball" commercial recently, and one thought that occurred to me while seeing it was that it definitely isn't going to reinforce a positive image of gargoyles).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 20, 2002 06:42:36 PM
IP: 65.57.63.86

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [It gets on my nerves because it's a play about a bunch of obnoxious brats who did everyone a favor by killing themselves before they could pollute the gene pool.]

Well, there's that too. :-)

You wrote: [I covered my ears the entire time so I could read it on my own, without the damn teacher bothering me.]

I did something similar; finished it long before the rest of the class and spent most of the time listening to the teacher drone on and on and on in her monotone voice about the cosmic significance of each line of text. Would have learned more if she had just let us read one damn act without stopping to add in her two cents.



MATT - You wrote: [the London Clan may not be strict warriors like the Manhattan or Ishimuran Clans, and they may not be protecting a whole community like Manhattan or Ishimura, but they are still protectors of a physical entity. that is the London Clans home and their shop in Soho.]

Protecting your personal home, property, and family are natural instinct; on that I have no disagreement. But I took that into consideration in my last post. Here's what I wrote:

"It honestly seems that protection is linked to the Warrior culture of Gargoyles and that if they weren't warriors anymore then the urge to protect (other than how we normally think of it - you know protection of your family in times of trouble, etc) would probably die down."

Everything has instinct and protection is one of them; for example a mother will protect her children or a farmer will protect his land. I think that Gargoyles, like Humans have that type of instinct. But protecting something that is not personal to you like a city full of hostile people is something that would go against natural instinct for survival; it makes more sense that the desire to go for that level and expansiveness in terms of the idea of protection would be less instinct induced and more culturally induced.

After all the first instinct of the clan wasn't to think of Manhattan as their castle to protect. They spent most of the first season a bit uncaring towards it if it was natural instinct. After all they didn't head out to stop crime. If they came across something (Brooklyn in TEMPTATIONS for example) they had the desire to help and that is a courageous and noble thing but not exactly natural instinct. NYC protection by a Gargoyle Clan only happened when they made a conscious decision to take it upon themselves to do something. Would they have been inclinded to do so if they had been a group of shopkeepers in Medieval Scotland? Or does that seem more in line with what a group of warriors with a conscience and a lot of time on their hands would do?

You wrote: [there were many references made in "MIA" to protecting the store AND London as a whole.]

Griff was the only one making them. Leo and Una kept looking at each other whenever Griff opened his mouth in front of Goliath as if he were making a fool of himself by suggesting such a thing. And on top of that Griff wasn't exactly being followed by masses of London Gargoyles, fired up with instinct to protect the English Humans from the nazis.

Griff struck me as being hopelessly bored with his life, and wanting adventure and freedom. He had a strong sense of right and wrong, and he had a good sense of proportion (he was able to recognize exactly how big a threat the nazis were, although we don't know if he figured this out before or after they attacked England) but if he were concerned with protection he would have been patrolling in the area around the shop, trying to keep the bombers away from there rather than heading a good distance away.

You wrote: [every other clan we've seen or heard of protects something, usually its the area or community taht they live in, but not always: the Mayan Clan protects a forest, the Loch Ness Clan protects the Loch Ness monsters, and in a way, the Xanadu Clan protects the gargoyle beast from extinction.]

True. And except for the London Clan, all the Gargoyles we have seen are warriors. Warriors need something to fight for same as Knights. And warriors always need something to protect that is bigger than themselves. Since Gargoyles don't have a country they tend to latch onto different things, different concepts.



It a question like this that make me want to see G2198, a time when Gargoyles might have to a certain extent, assimilated into the overall Terran Civilization.

We know that the London Clan would be just out and out merchants. And that the Ishimuran Clan would still be warriors. And that warriors overall would be associated with the Order of the Guardian or with the cops. But what about the other clans? And what about those who weren't part of the order (which sounds a bit Illuminatish to me)? Would the Manhattan Clan become a mixture of Cops and businessmen? And those who don't join the NYPD, would they still be considered protectors or would they be fighting natural instinct by doing something else? Would the Labyrinth Clan be a mixture of Scientists and social workers? Would they still care that much about protection except in the narrow terms of My home, My busines, My family/clan? (Obviously fighting the space spawn is a form of protection but is it really a biological instinct to save everyone from a threat or is it a little more personal in that they want their eggs and freedom back, and that they want to be able to set the record straight with humanity about the whole thing so that they can return to their normal lives?)



MOONCAT - You wrote: [I think the best bet all around is a human filter. Which I think Ask Greg does have. I think it would be a good idea to limit questions per person though, like 5 a month?]

Not a bad idea. I think though that 10 might be a better number. That would enable also being able to submit a comment on a rambling if they wish and still have the opportunity to put in a few questions too.

I still think thought that really obviously asked already questions should be left out. Or if the problem is that we don't want to alienate anyone who might be new to the site and didn't read the clear to see and directly pointed to FAQ then maybe the people in charge of filtering legal questions to Greg should just go ahead and type in "See Archive or Check FAQ" and then put it in the Latest Responses section with an annotation that it was answered by site administration. (And on top of that have questions that are answered that way shunted off to a specific category in the Archive. It would save a lot of time and that "Check the Archive" archive can always be cleaned out later on.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 20, 2002 06:37:53 PM
IP: 12.88.86.228

Bud-Claire "I hate teenagers. . .">
Hey, I resemble that remark. I have a whole two and a half years of being a teenager left thank you very much.
But Romeo and Juliet pissed me off because it was sooo sappy and those two were so stupid. I really felt to sympathy for them. My teachers made Shakespeare pretty enjoyable, but we focused on more modern plays like "Amadeus." The little Shakespeare we did (Romeo&Juliet, Midsummer night, and Macbeth) weren't bad because of the teacher. I enjoyed Midsummer and Macbeth. My teachers generally refrained from spoon-feeding us material. After each important piece (major sollioqies, between chapters or acts.) They would callon us to interperet it and all.

Ask greg> there should be a pop-up every time you hit submit. Not on of the browser window, but one of the exclamation message type where you have to hit "OK" to close it (anyone know what I'm talking about?). That way they will be forced to read a short message about checking the FAQ. Mabye the submitting section should be moved to the bottom of the question queue too. That way people will have to see the whole queue and realize: "DAMN THAT's LONG! He's never gonna get to my question and it wasn't anything intelligent anyway." Not to mention the fact that they will have to load the page each time they want to submit a question. That way you can make sure that the question is damn important to you before you ask it.

MIB2. It wa only 88 minutes JIm R. I was dissapointed myself, but I wish I had a pet "ChubChub." Those things were cool.
Jimmy
Saturday, July 20, 2002 05:16:55 PM
IP: 172.163.164.111

Ask Greg -- I think limits would ONLY work if they were per person/IP, which is difficult to police. If there was just a flat limit, then one person could flood it out with rehashed or just plain prank style questions, and no one else would get a chance to ask geniune questions.

I think the best bet all around is a human filter. Which I think Ask Greg does have. I think it would be a good idea to limit questions per person though, like 5 a month? And stop those people who ask 30 to 50 questions in one long stream. I think that is really being a question hog, and so many of them are the most assinine (sp?) things, like "what color will so and so's great grand son's eyes and wings be?" and then it repeats a dozen times with the only change being which character being asked about. =( I really hate those.

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Saturday, July 20, 2002 03:39:49 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Hmm. Why not place a limit on the maximum number of questions waiting to be answered at the Ask Greg? Once the limit fills up, the submit option shuts down. I was thinking that number would be around how many Greg could answer in one month - 100? or fewer. If the backlog is limited, Greg would never fill overwhelmed and it would encourage us to think our questions through very carefully before submitting them.
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, July 20, 2002 03:00:03 PM
IP: 204.94.193.12

protection> Airwalker, you are wrong, at least partially. the London Clan may not be strict warriors like the Manhattan or Ishimuran Clans, and they may not be protecting a whole community like Manhattan or Ishimura, but they are still protectors of a physical entity. that is the London Clans home and their shop in Soho. there were many references made in "MIA" to protecting the store AND London as a whole.
every other clan we've seen or heard of protects something, usually its the area or community taht they live in, but not always: the Mayan Clan protects a forest, the Loch Ness Clan protects the Loch Ness monsters, and in a way, the Xanadu Clan protects the gargoyle beast from extinction.
i do not think the urge to protect is cultural, i think its biological. for one thing, gargoles around the world do it, and have been doing it for millenia, thats alot of evidence that its not cultural. i think it comes in part because for a good deal of their lives they must protect a rookery, and over time this natural urge to protect has encommpassed other things as well.
whats more cultural is what the gargoyle clan protects, and things like facing inwards at sunrise (Ishimura Clan). the urge to protect, IMHO, is a natural, biological urge...
matt
Saturday, July 20, 2002 02:34:49 PM
IP: 207.230.48.3

Airwalker> "ROMEO AND JULIET still gets on my nerves because of the boring teaching style that I was forced to read it under."
It gets on my nerves because it's a play about a bunch of obnoxious brats who did everyone a favor by killing themselves before they could pollute the gene pool. (I don't like teenagers, particularly the ones that have no grasp of reality.) As for the teaching style, I have no idea. I covered my ears the entire time so I could read it on my own, without the damn teacher bothering me. (The teachers at my school would stop every two or three lines to explain what was just said; the problem was that _alot_ of the sentences are longer than two or three lines, so they basically kept stopping for as much as several minutes in the middle all of the more complicated lines. This made it impossible to actually understand what was being read, so that you had to rely completely on the teacher's explanation, so in the end, nothing was actually accomplished. Unfortunately, when we read Julius Caesar the next year, I had a teacher who really liked me, so she gave me a part to read almost every day, so I need to reread it someday...)

Speaking of Shakespeare, has anyone seen the movie "Titus"? It's hilarious; the people who made it had to have been on some pretty serious drugs at the time. It's... zany.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 20, 2002 01:21:43 PM
IP: 129.21.10.19

ELLEN - You wrote: [I for one am enjoying the discussion between Todd and Airwalker regarding the viability of "Dark Ages" in its proposed incarnations.]

Thanks! That's good to hear.

You wrote: [Airwalker's arguments that, in essence, there must be more than meets the eye regarding the human/gargoyle relationship at Castle Wyvern over the ancient years reminds me of a question I've had ever since I first saw "Awakening."]

Actually Todd and I don't seem to disagree at all that the situation and relationship between the Humans and Gargoyles of Medieval Wyvern would be complex. It's more a matter of differences in specifics.

I imagine starting out with a measure of seperation and mutual fear combined with some gratitude (and in-gratitude) that eventually starts to transform into normalcy that decreases fear and increases ingratitude which eventually turns to hate and slightly open hostility. And that leadership played a huge role in all of this.

You wrote: [the princess seems particularly vehement in her insistence that Goliath's name not be mentioned to her. The negative sentiments of the humans toward the gargoyles are established by this point, yet we are never shown what may have precipitated the particular vehemence of Katherine's retort.] and [her antipathy is focused on Hudson. My question: What the heck happened?]

Some of it could have been her just focusing on the fact that at this point (994) Goliath is the leader so he's bearing whatever negative feelings she might have. If it were a different Gargoyle leading then he or she might have been treated the same way. Also at that point Goliath might be the only Gargoyle that is responding to the name that they have given him even if he hasn't fully accepted it as his own yet. She could just want him to remain a nameless beast to her so that its easier to ignore the contribution he and his clan made to saving her life.

There's also the possibility that something else came up between 984 and 994 that caused her to hate him more than she would have. For example we don't know how Malcolm died and it would have happened during the beginning of Goliath's tenure as leader.

But it seems more likely that he's getting treated badly (or spoken of badly) because she's now in contact with Goliath more rather than Hudson since Hudson is retired and wouldn't have a reason to really seek her out. She is royalty and if your not useful to royalty then you don't always get access to them.



TODD - You wrote: [The trouble is, I was only authorized to delete questions that provided story or character ideas, not "repeat questions".]

I think that a solution might be to give Greg a delete option so that he can get rid of repeat questions if too many of them pop up or if he's not in the mood to tell the person to check the FAQ/Archive first. (Also if this were to be done it would be a wise idea to make sure that the delete function when pressed will have a window pop up saying "Are you sure you want to delete this?" just for added peace of mind and to make sure that erasure mistakes are kept down.)

Also it might be a good idea to put "Read the FAQ" (with a link to it) in big letters on the front page right above the submit questions box.

All in all I don't mind a repeat question here and there - it happens and in its current format it is hard to go through the entire archive to double check for an answer. When Gore finishs his update that should be a little easier to deal with. But what bugs me is that we get double and triple repeats of the same questions over and over again which slow up everything. There's already a backlog and it makes it harder to get through when you have to spend hour after hour typing "See Archive". (The repeat questions that I DON'T mind are ones that Greg refused to answer previously; trying your luck again on getting an answer to an unanswered (or smart assed answered) question is different.) There is a well organised, detailed FAQ that doesn't take long to go through and might answer your question. (I would make the suggestion thought that an episode order list be added to it; a lot of questions of episode order come up.)

You wrote: [Have we really reached that low a level of cultural literacy?]

Generally yes. Although some it has to do with the way the material is taught. I wasn't exactly fond of Shakespeare in High School. The teachers would just drone on and on until all I wanted was to chuck the damn thing in the nearest dumpster. (ROMEO AND JULIET still gets on my nerves because of the boring teaching style that I was forced to read it under.) The only good experience I had with Shakespeare in High School were with JULIUS CAESAR and KING LEAR. (And KING LEAR was a love/hate relationship - I have fond memories of having to act out a part in a competition but without that I'd hate it; the teacher I had took all the desire to independently read it out of me. It's like she was dead inside when she was teaching it.)

I only went back to Shakespeare after watching GARGOYLES. That's one of the reasons I love the show - it salvaged Shakespeare for me (MACBETH and A MIDSUMMERS NIGHT DREAM in particular). Without it I would have know about the plays and would have had them under my belt as finished reading but I don't think I would have had a sense of enjoyment that I now have.

But also besides that, it might depend on who is asking the question - exposure to Shakespeare tends to happen in the middle to end of high school. If whoever asked the question is younger than middle to end of high school age they might not have had any exposure to the material.



IRC GOLIATH - YOu wrote: [It's hard to imagine that Gargoyles we ever at war with humans. Their nature is to protect, not to destroy.]

Its more likely to say that the Humans are at war with the Gargoyles than the Gargoyles are at war with Humanity (well except for Demona). As for the nature to protect and not destroy, I do agree that they aren't inclinded to destroy. But I've always wondered if they were truely biologically inclinded to protect. I always saw protection as being more of a cultural inclinded thing. The Manhattan Clan protects Manhattan because that's part of their warrior code. Same with the Ishimura Clan. But at the same time the London Clan isn't exactly concerned with protecting London. Griff goes out to fight the nazis but that was it for the war effort from England's Gargoyles. Una and Leo later join him in stopping some crime in Soho but they also have issues that they were resolving over not going out with him the last time. We still don't see the reaction of the clan to it. And we do get indications that they assimilate more and more in the future until they are a clan of shopkeepers and traders rather than protectors. Some would say that this is abandoning the Gargoyle way but it honestly seems that protection is linked to the Warrior culture of Gargoyles and that if they weren't warriors anymore then the urge to protect (other than how we normally think of it - you know protection of your family in times of trouble, etc) would probably die down.

You wrote: [They are a very family and community based species, if you come to their doorstep with open arms they will most likely welcome you.]

I don't think that they are THAT welcoming. After all they have to use some common sense. You don't want to let an enemy who can destroy you into your midst. For example I don't know if Hudson gave Malcolm such a great welcome as we might imagine. I don't think that he was rude but I can't see the conversations going like:

(Malcolm) "Let's be allies!"
(Hudson) "Sure! Anything you want friend!"

A relationship is going to start out based on mutual goals and desire. Malcolm needed Gargoyles to help him and Hudson probably figured that his Clan wouldn't make it that long without some daylight help so they made a deal. If it hadn't been in his interest I can't say I would see Hudson being so benevolent as to risk his warriors in battle for the hell of it, just to help some human who asked. It was the middle ages after all.

You wrote: [so, why? Fear mostly, I imagine. Some of the fears were obvious but one of the ones that might not be so obvious is a fear of themselves.]

Maybe on a subconscious level. But let's not get into this too deeply. I don't think that other than a few monks and the few philosophers on the continent that anyone would put that much thought into why to hate and destroy a Gargoyle Clan. They look like demons is good enough. Or they are in competetion for a limited food supply is also good enough. Or they are just beasts, like any ox or dog that we own, and if I don't show gratitude to them why should I show it to a Gargoyle?

Honestly I think that in those times, that without contact Humans would have hunted Gargoyles as animals and monsters. And I think that with contact they wouldn't have feared them. But they wouldn't have appreciated them. They wouldn't have seen them as equals, just as being useful. And after a while a lack of appreciation eventually leads to some resentment as to why you are keeping them around. It warps thinking into making a person believe that since they aren't grateful and have no reason to be then the Clan should be happy enough that they are being allowed to serve rather than being destroyed outright.

I think that at Wyvern they got used to Gargoyle protection and took it for granted. And with the leader (Katherine) telling everyone who would hear that they are just beasts, it was eventually going to lead to bad atmosphere among the Humans. If they are beasts, why treat them too well or how you would treat a Human? Why show gratitude? And if a beast can do such a good job then a Human should be able to do it a thousand times better. So what nerve do those Gargoyles have to think that they are better than Humans would go the logic following that. And following that resentment is hate.

Eventually if the Massacure didn't come I think that the Clan and Humans would have had conflict anyway. With the time of crusades approaching in the next century and with the level of hate at Wyvern high, the clan might not have made it more through the next 50 to 100 years.



By the way, I saw that Gatorade commercial, "which features stone gargoyles playing baseball during the All-Star game." It was interesting to see but I thought that I should just let everyone know that it wasn't a fluke or sense of humor that had Keith David doing the voiceover. He does them for all that sort of Gatorade commericals. He did the voiceover on the Rapter version too.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:15:12 AM
IP: 12.88.87.235

matt> "we should enforce some new policy that makes people who are going to ask a question very aware of what they are doing and grateful for the oppurtunity they are getting."
The problem is that alot of people are so massively egocentric that they believe that they're entitled to waste other people's time. (Help... can't spell... too tired...) But, to be less cynical, I'm sure some people would be less selfish if they realized what they're putting poor Greg through. Maybe Greg should keep a record for a little while of how long he spends answering each question, so that we can calculate an average time per question, then multiply that by the current number of questions in the queue. Everyone should be forced to see the amount of time Greg's going to have to spend answering all those questions, so that maybe they'll reconsider giving him more work unnecessarily. (On the other hand, that might just drive away all the people with legitimate questions, because they'll feel guilty.)

Gotta go. Need sleep.
Bud-Clare
Saturday, July 20, 2002 03:00:26 AM
IP: 129.21.11.6

Gargoyles Pins> Matt, speaking of buying them out... I did that again today :)

I got 14 more of them! ^_^ My offer still stands for -anybody- that wants one that can't make it to a Disney Store to buy their own ($5 flat. no tax or shipping :D I even take paypal :D just e-mail me)
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 20, 2002 02:23:28 AM
IP: 66.126.132.219

picked up a Gargoyles pin from the Disney Store today. i encourage everyone to pick these up. it'd be cool to buy them out, and they are only $5. wouldn't you pay that to give Disney ANOTHER reason to put Gargoyles back on?

Ask Greg queue> heres something taht occured to me today. we all love that Greg answers these questions for us, even though its probably hard to do sometimes and it can put pressure on him sometimes. but thats the point, its something he is doing for us. and most of us are very grateful of taht, but the people who asks these ridiculous questions are not grateful, they obviously don't care enough to try to answer their own questions. and because its something Greg does for us grateful people, we grateful people should do our best to make it easy and enjoyable for Greg. (i have a feeling i'm rambling here, so i'll get to my point) IMHO, we should enforce some new policy that makes people who are going to ask a question very aware of what they are doing and grateful for the oppurtunity they are getting. i'm not sure how we can go about doing it ( though i have some ideas) but somehow we have to make it so either bad questions are not asked or they are cleared long before greg gets them. the system we have now isn't working, people are not reading the guidlines or going through the FAQ.

sorry, i'm in a bad mood tonight, i'll go now...
matt
Saturday, July 20, 2002 01:51:52 AM
IP: 207.230.48.14

Hey, folks! Tim's got an auction going and now's your chance to pick up a Gargoyles Puzz 3-D of the Aerie Building. Only available in Canada, sold quite well at previous Gatherings. Clickie or go to http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemRedirect&item=1749846573, because the bidding ends on Tuesday!
Christine - [<--- Puzz 3-D Aerie Building]
Saturday, July 20, 2002 12:37:52 AM
IP: 65.239.13.233

These being the only comments that I have the energy to make:

Todd> "As it is, people still submit ideas disguised as questions (somebody asked why Greg didn't include a cameo by Crocodile Hunter in 'Walkabout'"
Yeah, but that idea is so stupid, it doesn't even count. The person who posted that should be punished for inflicting that on the world. :P

Jim R.> "I don't think you can base the average literacy rate on a couple people though."
Have you ever had to read surveys filled out by high school students? These are not bright people we're dealing with.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 20, 2002 12:23:14 AM
IP: 129.21.11.6

Just got my G2002 T-shirt in the mail today! Thanks to all the G2002 staff responsible for getting it together and sent to me. Sorry I wasn't able to be there in person!
Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Friday, July 19, 2002 09:20:18 PM
IP: 198.81.16.57

Dark Ages> It's hard to imagine that Gargoyles we ever at war with humans. Their nature is to protect, not to destroy. They are a very family and community based species, if you come to their doorstep with open arms they will most likely welcome you. No, with the exception of a few rogue and bitter clans it is more likely that the humans were at war with Gargoyles... so, why? Fear mostly, I imagine. Some of the fears were obvious but one of the ones that might not be so obvious is a fear of themselves. When there were some cases where Gargoyles and humans DID co-exist, why would they still fear the Gargoyles, despite their constant protection. Did the Gargoyles of Wyvern TRULY give the humans that lived there any reason to fear them? Even the slightest? Maybe they feared and hated what they were and the Gargoyles were not. People of the middle ages were savge, dark, ruthless, scared, kill or be killed... The Gargoyles, on the other hand, were protectors and family. Perhaps, on a subconscious level, the Gargoyles reflected back a darkness in their own souls because it was not apparent in theirs. And perhaps the humans that truly understood and appreciated Gargoyles were the ones that constructed their likeness to be displayed on the roofs of churches and cathedrals. Perhaps the "Demons" that those Gargoyles were protecting against were not the kind that Lucifer sent. Perhaps they were our own petty jealousies and hatreds, the demons that eat away at our very souls.

Just a thought... I had more I wanted to add to this but I'm supposed to meet my parents for dinner. So, off I go ^_^
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
"You too shall come to understand fear as I have."
Friday, July 19, 2002 09:00:01 PM
IP: 207.126.67.35

Ellen: ::What engendered the intensity of her animosity toward Goliath? Could it have been a single, particularly egregious misunderstanding?:: I haven't really thought about her dislike of Goliath in particular. I simply thought that she hated all gargoyles equally. ::Or could she, for example, have had a dream or a fantasy that-:: <ponders> You mean like maybe she had a crush on him at one time or something? Maybe she found Goliath attractive and was ashamed and disgusted with herself for that attraction...then turned her animosity of her own feelings toward Goliath. Afterall, he's a beast and how could she possibly think that a beast is attractive? It's unthinkable...not to me, by the way. Yes...this has fanfic possibilities. Speaking of fanfics, I love your stories! I can't wait until you come out with the next part. Please hurry!
EllenSfan
Friday, July 19, 2002 08:07:14 PM
IP: 216.160.98.240

Unfortunately, I've already cleared the bulk of the questions currently in queue, so it's too late to delete them - even the over-asked ones. So I suppose that we're stuck with them now. All that we can do is to hope that Greg soon has some free time with which to get caught up on them.

So at present, any solution that we come up with will be the equivalent of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. (Although closing it might at least keep the other animals that haven't escaped yet from doing so, so to speak - i.e., avoiding future such "clogs").

One question-comment, by Punchinello, gave a particularly interesting analysis on the multitude of "trivia questions", by the way.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 19, 2002 06:19:45 PM
IP: 65.56.175.203

Todd & Literacy> Actually, in school, I was never exposed to "A Mid-Summer Night's Dream." Though I did know it was Shakespeare and had a good idea what it was about. I read it later sometime, after seeing Gargoyles. However, in high school English Literature class we did read jolly good "MacBeth." Heh. I don't think you can base the average literacy rate on a couple people though.

Greg queue> I agree. I think the Greg queue should be flushed of all stupid FAQs. And that Lord Sloth's pop-up window idea be enforced on the ask question page. I haven't asked Greg any questions for a long time, mostly in part because he's busy, so by the time he gets around to answering my question, I'd forgotten why I asked it.

MIB2> I went to see MIB2 last night, even though its 2 weeks old now. To be honest, I should have gone to see Reign of Fire instead. Though MIB2 did give me some laughs, the story wasn't at all good, could've been better to make the movie much longer. I think it was only maybe 1 hour and 15 minutes...very lame. :( However, the little mini-movie about the singing alien they showed before MIB2 was pretty funny though.
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Friday, July 19, 2002 04:22:46 PM
IP: 65.164.19.160

Gabriel> don't expand on that, i'm getting a headache following you already! kidding...

Ask Greg queue> i'm almost frustrated to the point taht i'd want to overrule Greg and just start throwing out these ridiculous questions! its obvious that few people are reading the page on posting questions and/or the FAQ. we desperatly need to find a way to get these people to read and UNDERSTAND these things. this really annoys me. i'm not gonna say that if it were not for these people greg wouldn't be behind, but he sure wouldn't be this far behind. i wonder if Greg realizes how many of the questions are ridiculous. not just one here or there, but its getting to the point were theres only a good question here and there. and it seems we are getting more and more of them. argh!
matt
Friday, July 19, 2002 01:38:11 PM
IP: 216.178.8.62

<< Have we really reached that low a level of cultural literacy?>>

Radically yes. However, it's only recently that "culture" has been made available to lower-class citizens. "culture" had usually been a thing for the upper-class bouegois (sp?). Yes, Shakespear was performed for the lewr-class, blah blah blah. But serious philosophical works or literary works were usually discussed and appreciated in upper-class sircles.

I know Dickens was hugely popular among working-class citizens (in fact, when the PICKWICK PAPERS was released after its serialization, there was a raid on the shipment boat to get the book).

I think three factors play into this "dumbing-down" of taste. (1) The recent demand for Technology-based work-force and civilization; (2) our sudden decrease in attention-span; and (3) our utter distate for thought.

I'll expand later.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, July 19, 2002 12:34:39 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Have we really reached that low a level of cultural literacy?>
Yes we have. I've met people who don't know who Mozart is. People who can't name a single play by Shakespeare, people who think Macbeth is a rapper. . . 'tis a sick sad world we live in.
"The Horror! The Horror!"
Jimmy
Friday, July 19, 2002 11:51:19 AM
IP: 172.154.150.162

Too early too think...not enough sleep
Yawn
Aaron---"It is the way I cook it! ;)" You silly Texans. :::A birth certificate From Irving Memorial Hospital falls from her pocket.. She whistles as she picks it up.<<<I'll swap you. Being 5'6" and male bites.>>>If I could I'll give you my new inch.<<Huh? Am I that bad?>>>Yeah but I still want to read it.<<<The third season in particular, Slayers TRY, gets quite dark toward the end.>>>I gotta finish, I'm still on the third disk
---"And obviously written by somebody who was a giant Zelgaddis fan. I mean, Zel was always da man, but in Try he was DA MAN."
No Wonder I'm loving TRY.

Airwalker---"If a story takes place in a medievalish setting ala Lodoss Wars or Dungeons and Dragons then I'm more inclinded to count it as medieval even if that isn't technically or purely so---Okay I would say the first two seasons take place in a medieval setting. TRY is more fantasy. The lands outside the shield, while they lack in magic they made up with technology. I'd say between sixteenth and seventeenth century level of tech.

---"little weaker than the other two seasons in that it didn't have a balance between comedy and drama." True from what I have seen. NEXT did have the best comedy.

Siryn---"Speaking of MGC, (Monthly Gargoyles Art Contest)"The website will be back up soon? Whoo Freakin hoo!

Todd---"Have we really reached that low a level of cultural literacy? " Yo quote The Refreshments. "The world is full of stupid people." Heck someone didn't know that a quote they were using came from "Wasteland"

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, July 19, 2002 08:31:30 AM
IP: 64.159.110.176

AIRWALKER - Good point about "Ask Greg". The trouble is, I was only authorized to delete questions that provided story or character ideas, not "repeat questions". I asked Greg about that, and he said that, although he didn't enjoy getting them, he felt that deleting them would be too likely to turn newcomers off "Gargoyles" if they saw their questions disappearing from the queue. So I'm afraid that the only likely solution here is to just start educating people who visit "Ask Greg" about what questions to ask, and teach them to look through the archives of FAQs first before submitting something.

As it is, people still submit ideas disguised as questions (somebody asked why Greg didn't include a cameo by Crocodile Hunter in "Walkabout" - what part of "no original ideas" did he or she not understand?), and worse. This morning, I noticed that somebody was actually asking whether Oberon was an invention of "Gargoyles" or an original legendary figure. Come on, now, he turns up in "A Midsummer Night's Dream", one of Shakespeare's best-known plays! Have we really reached that low a level of cultural literacy?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 19, 2002 06:53:13 AM
IP: 67.28.92.69

I attended this years Gathering and last years also(both were quite bitchin') and I was wondering when the website for 2003's NY Gathering will be up?I got my pictures back too and I must say that CrzyDemona and Patrick were the hottest couple there! :D

*I was the one girl with her midrif showing at the dance if anyone remembers me :)*
Rei - [overactorette69@yahoo.com]
Phx, AZ, USA
Friday, July 19, 2002 03:55:07 AM
IP: 68.129.17.205

Greetings, and a belated "thank you" to all who welcomed me so warmly to this forum.

I for one am enjoying the discussion between Todd and Airwalker regarding the viability of "Dark Ages" in its proposed incarnations. Airwalker's arguments that, in essence, there must be more than meets the eye regarding the human/gargoyle relationship at Castle Wyvern over the ancient years reminds me of a question I've had ever since I first saw "Awakening." In the first part of this episode, when the captain is explaining to the princess the vital role the gargoyles played in defending the castle against the Viking onslaught and mentions Goliath by name, the princess seems particularly vehement in her insistence that Goliath's name not be mentioned to her. The negative sentiments of the humans toward the gargoyles are established by this point, yet we are never shown what may have precipitated the particular vehemence of Katherine's retort. Even in "Long Way to Morning," when she is shown as a young girl being, as Todd observes, carelessly prejudiced by a children's bedtime cliché thought to be innocent and harmless (oh, SO well done - what a reality check for all of us!), her antipathy is focused on Hudson. My question: What the heck happened? What engendered the intensity of her animosity toward Goliath? Could it have been a single, particularly egregious misunderstanding? Or could she, for example, have had a dream or a fantasy that - oh, wait a minute. This is PG-13 material we're talking about. Never mind. In any regard, I'll be the first to proclaim that I'm no expert on the nuances of these episodes, so if I've missed something, this community's enlightenment is more than welcome. However, if this turns out to be an opportunity to explore and/or explain at least in part the difficult relationship between the humans and gargoyles of the ancient Castle Wyvern, then so much the better.

Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Friday, July 19, 2002 02:22:15 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

IRC Goliath> PHP is the code of the GODS!!! I used it when redesigning MGC, it makes things MUCH easier!!

Speaking of MGC, (Monthly Gargoyles Art Contest) the ezboard is now up for it!! :D
http://pub39.ezboard.com/bmgc32513

The website itself will be up around August 1st. (I am shooting for August 1st..)

http://mgc.gargoyles-fans.org/ will be the name of the website. :)

And the first topic will be....a surprise on the 1st of August. ;) hehe

If you have any questions you can email me at siryn7@aol.com ^_^
Siryn - [<--MGC forum]
Friday, July 19, 2002 01:32:33 AM
IP: 129.21.145.3

AARON - You wrote: [That was my initial reaction to try as well, (although I still thought it was better then the first season) but the second viewing changed my mind.]

Don't get me wrong, I still like TRY. Its not terrible; its a pretty interesting SLAYERS season. It's just that the last time I saw TRY it was in a SLAYERS marathon with my college anime club and with all the comedy (and comedy filler) of the first two seasons, the drama and seriousness stuck out much more.

You wrote: [In fact, Try was what put Slayers up over NG:Evangelion as "greatest anime series ever" in my mind.]

Sad to say but I haven't seen EVA yet. I plan to but since it isn't a priority on my anime DVD list (I still have a few other series that I've started that I'd like to finish up first) I figure that I'll wait until all of the series (meaning the movies) gets released. Since that's coming around by the end of the year, it'll probably be that long until I get around to seeing it.

You wrote: [The roadtrip to Cairaag in the second arc of season one is sort of like the Avalon tour - it just goes on and on and on...]

It didn't bug me so much. But then again I liked the Avalon tour also. (The only reason that it really felt long the first time I saw the Avalon tour was because of all those reruns that hit right during the middle of it. But I also didn't mind it so much at the same time because that's when I got a chance to get the series on tape. Up to that point I never had enough time to sit down and get everything set up to record. Thankfully that rerun gap gave me unedited episode tapes which I now have to find a way to put on VCD or DVD-R.)



TODD - You wrote: [I think that it's a better idea to wait until he can get more caught up on questions; the poor man is over nine months behind, after all. I wonder if it's time for another "disabling the submit question feature"]

I stopped by ASKGREG to take a look at the backlog and I think that something more radical might have to be done to help him out a bit besides disabling the submit question feature. Going over the list you can spot tons of questions that are repeats of information that's already in the archives. If your one of the people who sorts through the questions to make sure that only legal ones reach him (I think you were, at least as of the last time I was posting) then I would really suggest getting rid of all the asked already and answered questions. That would probably cut out something like 4 to 5 months worth of questions.

(It might even be suggested to just wipe out the questions asked backlog when ASKGREG gets remade in a little while and just letting everything start from scratch. There are just too many questions that shouldn't be up there because the answers are sitting in the archives. We have questions like "Who is Katana?" or questions that ask about TGS release info, or questions on episode order, etc. Information thats either in the archive or FAQ or easily available to anyone searching for them without clogging up ASKGREG. There are tons of good questions too - on topics like TEAM ATLANTIS or on THE NEW OLYMPIANS or on various Clans but they are getting buried under these repeat answered questions.)

You wrote: [I do think that the gargoyles couldn't have survived for 23 years amid utter hostility, but I also think that it was more complex than that.]

I agree. Actually I have to wonder if the Gargoyles would even be that much of a problem in the first few years. After all human life in the Middle Ages usually comes to a hault more or less around nightfall. And Gargoyles are only around long after the sun goes down. There might not be as much interaction as we might imagine, at least in the beginning.

You wrote: [Also, I suspect that the bulk of the hostility was not "open arms" hostility, but more of a simple non-violent dislike - and one that perhaps also recognized that, regardless of what they thought of the gargoyles, they did need them to protect the castle.]

I think that we might have to split time periods a bit - in the beginning (the at least 13 years of Malcolm's rule) I think that the attitude on the part of the castle humans would be one of tamed yet ignorant fear and curiousity. I don't know if hostility would carry into it so much as the background info we get (The Three Brothers Story) has Malcolm coming to the clan for help and that help might have had some impression on the Wyvern Humans, taking away reasons for hate and letting in more leeway for fear.

I think that lowkey hostility, the way your describing it, wouldn't really start until the second half (or basically everything almost Post Malcolm to 994) of the prequel. With that enough time has passed that fear and curiousity about the Gargoyles (together with some gratitude for past deeds) would have passed. Katherine and the rest that we saw in AWAKENINGS would have been the generation who knew them not, so to speak. It would be the generation that would be more inclinded to hate rather than fear.

(You'll hate what you fear but in some ways its not as strong as hating what you know. That can be even stronger and more dangerous. At least with what you fear and don't know, you might be inclinded a bit to find out about and overcome it. Hating what you know leaves little to no room for compromise and backtracking. They may have hated the Gargoyles mildly at first because they didn't know them and feared them but once they did know them and then started to hate them, its even worse.)

You wrote: [Mildly hypocritical, although realistic human behavior.]

It might also be an inversed situation with some of the Gargoyles. Hating the humans who built the castle and are living on their hill but at the same time accepting the daylight protection that they are giving them. Either way a very understandable and realistic scenario.

You wrote: [it was more a matter of simple lack of gratitude, combined with scorn and contempt.]

I think that the scorn and contempt came latter, after Malcolm (or towards the end of his rule). I can imagine the lack of gratitude becoming constant at least after the first few times the humans get helped out. The first time though it would be a little hard to swallow completely. (A little acceptable but not completely - if they're ungrateful from the very beginning, its doubtful that the alliance would have lasted so long or that Hudson and Goliath would have so much faith in it.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:22:50 PM
IP: 12.88.117.86

AIRWALKER - Good points (I've half-considered asking Greg Weisman what he thinks about this aspect of "Dark Ages", but I think that it's a better idea to wait until he can get more caught up on questions; the poor man is over nine months behind, after all. I wonder if it's time for another "disabling the submit question feature").

I do think that the gargoyles couldn't have survived for 23 years amid utter hostility, but I also think that it was more complex than that. For at least the first thirteen years of it (the series doesn't mention when Prince Malcolm died, though we know that he was still alive in 984), Prince Malcolm, who was pro-gargoyle (if a bit on the slow side about it, given his foolish use of gargoyles as bogeymen to make his daughter behave), was ruling the human community. And that would have kept anti-gargoyle sentiments in check. Anybody who had taken it on himself or herself to smash the clan in its stone sleep would quickly have had to face the Prince's justice, after all.

Also, I suspect that the bulk of the hostility was not "open arms" hostility, but more of a simple non-violent dislike - and one that perhaps also recognized that, regardless of what they thought of the gargoyles, they did need them to protect the castle. Destroying or evicting the clan would only have made Castle Wyvern more vulnerable to Viking attack and other outside threats.

(Admittedly, it makes their attitude towards gargoyles a bit of a "wanting to eat your cake and still have it"; on the one hand, they dislike the gargoyles, yet continue to enlist their help against outside enemies. Mildly hypocritical, although realistic human behavior.)

At any rate, I don't think that the anti-gargoyle attitude in Wyvern was one of a desire to destroy them; it was more a matter of simple lack of gratitude, combined with scorn and contempt.

I do certainly think that Goliath and his clan's insistence on protecting the castle would need to be carefully handled in light of that, to keep them from forfeiting audience sympathy. I remember seeing an episode of "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" where Superman battles it out with Darkseid at Apokolips and seriously batters him, then turns him over to his oppressed slaves with a tone of "He's all yours". To Superman's shock, the slaves tend to Darkseid's wounds and do all that they can to help him (with Darkseid gloating over it). I don't think that we want people to see Goliath and his clan in the same light as those broken-down slaves.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 18, 2002 06:49:08 PM
IP: 67.28.88.250

Hey there. I just had a question about people's opinions on something:
What, exactly, do you think is the origin of the name "Sevarius"? I can't seem to find it anywhere. The two references I keep coming up with for "Anton" are Spanish and German (from the Latin "inestimable" or "priceless") - but the name is apparently popular in Bulgaria, Slovakia, Russia, the Ukraine, Germany, Rumania, Serbia, Sweeden and Norway.
I had a good schnorff through "Ask Greg" on the subject, but dear Mr. Weisman was noticably.. shall we say.. ambiguous in his responses ;)
Not that I'm expecting an "official answer" or anything.. I was just mostly interested in peoples' opinions. :)

Thanks :)
Lurking Fish
Thursday, July 18, 2002 06:03:25 PM
IP: 65.92.92.19

Airwalker> <<TRY does get dark but I felt that it was a little weaker than the other two seasons>> That was my initial reaction to try as well, (although I still thought it was better then the first season) but the second viewing changed my mind. In fact, Try was what put Slayers up over NG:Evangelion as "greatest anime series ever" in my mind. Try is where we really explore just how morally grey all the characters of Slayers, and their world, really are. I think Gourry's line around episode 20 sums it up pretty well: "I'm not sure who the good guys are here, Lina."

<<in that it didn't have a balance between comedy and drama. (Or more specifically it didn't have the same amount of comedy as the other two>> Actually, there's some really hilarious comedy toward the middle of the series, but it's subtle. (And you have to be an Eva fan) And, you could argue that the balance is off because the story in Try is much tighter then say, Next, where there's three episodes of filler for every one that moves the plot. (Even the first series is sometimes guilty of this. The roadtrip to Cairaag in the second arc of season one is sort of like the Avalon tour - it just goes on and on and on... (And then when they need to go back there in Next it takes like, two episodes)

<<- TRY was original material while the other two were based on SLAYERS manga/books.)>> And obviously written by somebody who was a giant Zelgaddis fan. I mean, Zel was always da man, but in Try he was DA MAN.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:10:27 AM
IP: 209.33.140.101

Wow, the comment room's been pretty quiet! 7 hours (more or less) between posts!



MATT - You wrote: [i don't think the Mutates are biologically different than the Manhattan Clan (besides Delilah) they are clones. they shouldn't have any extra features (like an ability to not need sunlight) that the Clan doesn't have...]

I don't think that other than the fact that it's Elisa's head on Demona's body that Delilah would be different than any other Gargoyle. Other than coloring and personality the Clones shouldn't be any different in physical needs than the other Gargoyles in the city. Which brings us back to the question - if Stone Sleep absorbs something that helps the Gargoyles (but isn't necessary to stay alive, just to make life a little easier) and the Clones aren't getting it in the Labyrinth what would the effect be? And could they remain in the Labyrinth in the long term?



AARON - You wrote: [Welcome back.]

Thanks!

You wrote: [I'm not sure I'd call Slayers medieval. A fantasy setting to be sure, full of swords, sorcery, kings, and dragons, but they also have 1700s-type naval ships and flintlock guns.]

It's not pure medieval setting and it can be described as more fantasy than medieval. If a story takes place in a medievalish setting ala Lodoss Wars or Dungeons and Dragons then I'm more inclinded to count it as medieval even if that isn't technically or purely so.

You wrote: [Also, Dramady might be a better term for Slayers, being almost equal parts fun and seriousness. The third season in particular, Slayers TRY, gets quite dark toward the end.]

TRY does get dark but I felt that it was a little weaker than the other two seasons in that it didn't have a balance between comedy and drama. (Or more specifically it didn't have the same amount of comedy as the other two - TRY was original material while the other two were based on SLAYERS manga/books.)



TODD - You wrote: [In order to fit what we saw in the 10th century flashbacks in the series, we'd have to have a situation where, for 23 years, all the humans in Castle Wyvern except for Prince Malcolm and the Captain of the Guard are unfriendly towards the gargoyles, and show little, if any, gratitude to them for protecting the castle from enemies.]

I don't know if things would have gone exactly like that. I imagine that the attitude of the leader had a lot of effect on the general population of the Castle. I figured that while things wouldn't have been perfect that under Malcolm there might have been more tolerance among the human population of the Castle (if not all of Scotland or even all of Wyvern). Nothing perfect and not without an element of fear and distrust on both sides. But not the level of ingratitude and hate of 994.

(After all the Gargoyles would have just formed the allience and probably just have helped them out; that could have helped to smooth things out a bit if not perfectly. Plus it is the Middle Ages - let's not expect 20th century love and peace here. If they aren't killing each other and aren't threatening each other then that's tolerance enough in that age.)

I think that it started out well enough if not perfectly and that the situation was alright if not perfect for the first few years but that things started to get progressively worse as the threat the Clan had originally saved them from receeded from memory. And after Malcolm dies and is replaced by Katherine, her attitude wouldn't have helped at all; it probably contributed greatly and sped up the decline of relations until we come to the 994 mark. But 23 years of outright hostility? 23 years of complete distrust in a time when killing left and right isn't such a bad thing to the population? When the humans could easily smash them without all that angst and there wouldn't be anyone to cry over the Clan? Doesn't seem as likely to me.

You wrote: [The problem with that is that if we saw just such a situation, we'd probably wind up becoming so utterly unsympathetic towards the human inhabitants by the time of the Wyvern massacre that we'd be almost tempted to cheer when the Captain and Demona make their bargain with Hakon]

I did find them unsympathetic in AWAKENINGS. (Although to be honest except for the nobles we don't actually see the reactions of any of the native humans of the castle. We only see outsider refugees who are scared of the Clan. We don't know if there might have been others who were like the Captain of the Guard.)

The problem with the bargain that Demona and the Captain made wasn't just the morality of it - it was the logistics of it. Too much risk, not enough leeway given for change and failure. And not enough preparation made. (They did change it at the last minute after all.) Plus failure of leadership of the part of both Demona and the Captain. He could have killed Hakon and had a Gargoyle Clan to back him up against Hakon's men 10 or 15 minutes later. Demona could have led them to safety using some excuse. (She could have sold out the Captain and said that she over heard him plotting. He after all took the most risk in actually being there and allowing himself to be associated with the Vikings. If things went wrong he had no plan for retreat.) It was a flawed plan more than anything else. (They could have even gone for killing Katherine and blaming it on the refugees. A change in leadership might have helped. Or hurt. But they weren't Xanatosian enought to imagine the various possibilities. Not entirely their fault. The Captain was mostly just a fighter. Probably not a lot of brains. And Demona's desperate to stop a massacure she showed herself 19 years before. That doesn't contribute to straight thinking.)

You wrote: [and to look upon Goliath and the other gargoyles (such as Hudson) as naive fools, risking their lives for an ungrateful populace that doesn't deserve their help.]

They do come off a little too trusting considering how the leadership (Katherine) is behaving towards them. So there must have a reason why they would be willing to have that much trust. Maybe the general Castle population wasn't that bad. Maybe things hadn't been so bad when Malcolm was leader. Maybe things had only gotten bad more recently, after Malcolm dies, leaving his spoiled brat of a daughter in leadership that she's obviously not suited to at that point.

I still find it unlikely that 23 years of pure hostility can exist especially with the Gargoyles being vulnerable to destruction exactly half of the time of those years. Nobody would have cried about Gargoyle rights if a decision was made to destroy them during that time. And yet nothing like that happened. It was outsiders who actually physically destroyed the Wyvern Clan. So maybe relations weren't that bad.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 18, 2002 09:21:20 AM
IP: 12.88.90.110

*peeks in for once*

whoa! we have spammage! *cuff cuff* evil anon! :P

that's all i've to say. :P
Elisa
Thursday, July 18, 2002 02:09:05 AM
IP: 204.180.108.73

I should remake the TGS themes now that I have better technology at my disposal... but I should really learn php so I can upgrade Avalon... I should do a lot of things :D Like, I should clock out for work ^_^
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 08:03:25 PM
IP: 207.126.67.35

ANONYMOUS - Please don't do that. This isn't an appropriate forum for that sort of thing; it's almost as bad as posting just to look at the pictures.

One other potential problem with "Dark Ages" that has occasionally occurred to me. In order to fit what we saw in the 10th century flashbacks in the series, we'd have to have a situation where, for 23 years, all the humans in Castle Wyvern except for Prince Malcolm and the Captain of the Guard are unfriendly towards the gargoyles, and show little, if any, gratitude to them for protecting the castle from enemies. The problem with that is that if we saw just such a situation, we'd probably wind up becoming so utterly unsympathetic towards the human inhabitants by the time of the Wyvern massacre that we'd be almost tempted to cheer when the Captain and Demona make their bargain with Hakon, and to look upon Goliath and the other gargoyles (such as Hudson) as naive fools, risking their lives for an ungrateful populace that doesn't deserve their help. (Of course, maybe those memories of everyone but Prince Malcolm and the Captain being anti-gargoyle throughout the whole 971-994 period were exaggerated).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 06:37:19 PM
IP: 63.208.44.43

Belated replies...

matt> <<a steak isn't gonna start mooing>> It is the way I cook it! ;)

Jen> <<I know how Chewbacca must feel.>> I'll swap you. Being 5'6" and male bites. <<Aaron - Are you sure we are emotionally ready to see your Gathering journal at all? ;)>> Huh? Am I that bad?

Airwalker> Welcome back. <<SLAYERS is another medieval set series except its comedy while BERSERK is drama.>> I'm not sure I'd call Slayers medieval. A fantasy setting to be sure, full of swords, sorcery, kings, and dragons, but they also have 1700s-type naval ships and flintlock guns. Also, Dramady might be a better term for Slayers, being almost equal parts fun and seriousness. The third season in particular, Slayers TRY, gets quite dark toward the end.


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 06:00:44 PM
IP: 209.33.140.101

i don't think the Mutates are biologically different than the Manhattan Clan (besides Delilah) they are clones. they shouldn't have any extra features (like an ability to not need sunlight) that the Clan doesn't have...

oh, and the reason we need sunlight is to produce Vitamin D which is made in our skin when sunlight hits it...
matt
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 04:28:37 PM
IP: 207.230.48.65

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [But since everyone is going to die sooner or later, that is basically true of every character. ;)]

You know what I mean :-)

Technically you're right and knowing that the characters are going to die shouldn't be too much of an obsticle to enjoying the show and what those characters are going through. But at the same time its a little difficult to want to get involved in the lives of these characters so to speak when you know that no matter how good or interesting they are, all of them are going to be cruelly smashed while they sleep at some point in 994.

(Although it would depend on the type of prequel we are getting; if its trying to shine a new light on the Wyvern Clan from 971 to 994 and concentrate more on the rest of the clan then it gets difficult. But if the prequel focuses squarely on the main series cast and is limited in scope to specific planned out stories then it could shed more light on the characters and be workable.)

Maybe I'm just complaining too much :-) I usually just don't have the patience for prequels unless they are helping to illuminate something in the main story which would make it more of a flashback than a prequel.

You wrote: [I'd like to see them do Dark Ages the way some anime is done: decide beforehand how many episodes the series will have.]

I can agree; in OVA mode (which is just another way of saying mini-series) it could work. As long as a prequel is focused on a few specific plots and carries through with them in a tightly plotted specifically limited number of episodes or movies then it can work. But something open ended where each season has to be left with open ended closure and perhaps no chance that it might get picked up again for another season wouldn't work or sit right with me.

If a set number of episodes or movies are put together to tell the specific story it set out to do and have a solid overall beginning and ending then it can work (sort of like the STAR WARS prequels).

You wrote: [Because, to me, Dark Ages would just seem wrong if it ended with anything other than the massacre (or immediately before it), and that would probably be a problem without a set number of episodes. (Either it'd be stretched out unnaturally or ended rather abruptly.)]

Exactly. The last episode of DARK AGES has to be the first episode of GARGOYLES.

You wrote: [Or they just don't want to sweep up skin shards every night.]

But even on a balconey it would have to be cleaned up; not everything falls to street level.

You wrote: [Maybe it does. Geeks get little enough sunlight when they aren't stuck in a lab _underground._ Maybe Cyberbiotics put in a fancy lighting system so the workers wouldn't get all weirded out from lack of sunlight.]

That could be an answer. But would the Mutates have access to special replacement bulbs and such if they broke/stopped working, etc? Even those "hundred year" environmental bulbs don't last that long.

(And while its not a bad idea I'm not sure if I can buy into it so completely. It would be pretty a convienient answer to sweep this question under the rug. And in the Gargoyles Universe most answers/solutions don't come THAT easily. Besides an energy problem would make for an interesting episode that could clarify Stone Sleep and Sunlight exposure to the audience more clearly that it already has been. And it would pose some interesting questions/situations to the main clan who were pretty uncomfortable with the clones at the end of THE RECKONING.)

You wrote: [So did the Wyvern clan before the castle was built. I doubt very much that there were enough cave openings in the cliffs for the entire clan to sleep in sunlight, and they'd have to be insane to sleep along the top of the cliff, where they'd be too vulnerable. Maybe the clan slept at the base of the cliffs, where Demona hid during the massacre, but...]

Maybe without a castle they rotated where they slept in the cave. After all nobody is saying that short term lack of Stone Sleep in sunlight will have any major effect or even any effect at all.

You wrote: [I tend to agree that sunlight probably isn't absolutely vital.]

I don't think that they can't live without it or that they need long term exposure to be able to stay alive. I don't think that they are tied to the sun and whatever energy that they might get through Stone Sleep to live.

I just think that Stone Sleep and whatever energy they might absorb from it might have some effect on them and might supply them with something (i.e. extra energy). But if they can't have it that doesn't mean they are going to drop dead; they might just have to eat more. Or glide less. Or sit around more. Or patrol less. It could be a minor effect. It could be a major effect. We don't really know. But I don't think that they are bound to sunlight in order to completely function and to live. But I don't think that it has no effect either.

We also should remember that this question is being asked specifically about the Labyrinth Clones. They might lack something that might make absorbing energy in stone sleep more necessary. After all between the Mutates and the Humans in the Labyrinth there might not be enough food to deal with both their normal needs and compensate for whatever they aren't getting by sleeping underground. They might need more sunlight rather than less. Or they could be more active than the main clan usually is. They were created mainly to fight and serve after all.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 01:44:20 PM
IP: 12.88.88.228

Aaaand the last one!

Super-HeroBlasterFemale*Elisa Maza*Skin:1,0,0,0,50,80,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Eyes:10,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Eyebrows:4,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Nose:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mouth:12,0,0,0,77,99,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mask:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Hair:6,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Helmet:10,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,0,0,77,99,100;Undershirt:15,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Overshirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Insignia:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Leggings:2,0,10,70,90,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Belt:8,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Pants:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Gloves:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Coat:1,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,0,0,77,99,100;Footwear:11,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,100,0,0,0,100;Weapon-lft:20,0,10,70,90,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Weapon-rt:4,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Back:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;#

Yes, enough spam for one day ;)
Anonymous
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 01:08:11 PM
IP: 212.160.201.186

Two more:

Super-HeroBrickMale*Hudson*Skin:1,0,20,30,50,87,100,0,20,30,50,87,100;Eyes:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Nose:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mouth:4,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Eyebrows:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Undershirt:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Hair:19,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mask:1,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Back:13,0,30,0,50,80,100,0,20,30,50,87,100;Insignia:1,0,0,0,50,80,100,0,0,30,72,0,100;Leggings:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Belt:8,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Overshirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Beard:5,75,0,0,0,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Helmet:1,0,0,30,72,0,100,0,100,0,0,0,100;Pants:17,0,0,0,50,80,100,0,0,0,50,80,100;Foot-left:1,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Foot-right:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Weapon-lft:1,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Weapon-rt:15,50,0,13,25,30,100,50,0,13,25,30,100;Glove-lft:14,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Glove-rt:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Coat:11,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,50,0,80,80,100;Background:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;#

uper-HeroBlasterMale*Brooklyn*Skin:1,0,0,0,77,99,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Eyebrows:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Eyes:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Nose:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mouth:2,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Beard:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Hair:13,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mask:7,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Helmet:19,0,0,0,77,99,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Undershirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Overshirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Gloves:14,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Insignia:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Belt:7,0,50,0,80,80,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Leggings:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Overleggings:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Pants:3,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Footwear:17,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Coat:12,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Weapon-rt:6,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Weapon-lft:19,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Back:13,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,0,0,77,99,100;#

Enjoy, and try yourself! :)
Anonymous
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:45:54 PM
IP: 212.160.201.186

And another one:

Super-HeroBrickMale*Goliath*Skin:1,0,0,30,72,0,100,0,0,30,72,0,100;Eyes:7,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Nose:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mouth:4,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Eyebrows:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Undershirt:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Hair:11,0,100,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mask:1,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Back:13,0,40,30,72,0,100,0,0,30,72,0,100;Insignia:1,0,0,0,50,80,100,0,0,30,72,0,100;Leggings:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Belt:8,0,50,0,80,80,100,0,50,0,0,0,100;Overshirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Beard:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Helmet:1,0,0,30,72,0,100,0,100,0,0,0,100;Pants:11,0,50,0,80,80,100,0,50,0,80,80,100;Foot-left:1,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Foot-right:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Weapon-lft:1,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Weapon-rt:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Glove-lft:1,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Glove-rt:1,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Coat:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Background:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;#

This was easy :)
Anonymous
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:08:20 PM
IP: 212.160.201.186

Hi. I just recreated a Thylog-series clone soldier from the Future Tense episode, using HeroMachine [link]. Code is:

Super-HeroBrickMale*Storm Trooper*Skin:1,0,40,30,72,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Eyes:3,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Nose:11,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mouth:7,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Eyebrows:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Undershirt:7,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Hair:5,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Mask:6,0,0,0,77,99,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Back:13,0,40,30,72,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Insignia:1,0,0,0,50,80,100,0,0,30,72,0,100;Leggings:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Belt:13,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Overshirt:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Beard:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,0,40,30,72,0,100;Helmet:1,0,0,30,72,0,100,0,100,0,0,0,100;Pants:14,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Foot-left:1,0,40,70,90,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Foot-right:1,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;Weapon-lft:17,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Weapon-rt:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Glove-lft:17,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Glove-rt:7,0,100,0,0,0,100,0,10,70,90,0,100;Coat:1,0,10,70,90,0,100,0,40,70,90,0,100;Background:2,75,0,0,0,0,100,75,0,0,0,0,100;#

Have fun.
Anonymous
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:57:43 AM
IP: 212.160.201.186

Lots of comments today, but it's way past my bedtime, so I'm no longer sure how much of this makes sense...

Jimmy> "I really can't understand how some people can eat it everyday."
I know people who eat meat every meal. It's disturbing.

Airwalker> "*Starts swallowing plate after plate of cookies*"
Don't swallow the plates, you'll choke on them. :P

"It's just that since you know where that's going you can't really get into it emotionally; and any new characters you bring in are dead men walking from day one."
But since everyone is going to die sooner or later, that is basically true of every character. ;)

Alex> "I'm left hoping that the success of Roughnecks DVD sales will convince Sony to make the last episodes, but I doubt it."
Actually, I think that I heard that they decided to do it.

Airwalker again> "But a prequel that's running as an open ended series is going to run into problems."
I'd like to see them do Dark Ages the way some anime is done: decide beforehand how many episodes the series will have. 13 is too few, but maybe 26 episodes would be good. That way they know ahead of time exactly how many episodes they have to do what they need to do. Because, to me, Dark Ages would just seem wrong if it ended with anything other than the massacre (or immediately before it), and that would probably be a problem without a set number of episodes. (Either it'd be stretched out unnaturally or ended rather abruptly.)

MAui> No money. :(

Airwalker yet again> "they tend to head outside like they are instinctively drawn to being out in the sun, like they know that they are getting something out of it that they wouldn't get from sleeping indoors."
Or they just don't want to sweep up skin shards every night.

"If the Labyrinth had some sort of lighting system that was almost a copy of sunlight that could be an answer."
Maybe it does. Geeks get little enough sunlight when they aren't stuck in a lab _underground._ Maybe Cyberbiotics put in a fancy lighting system so the workers wouldn't get all weirded out from lack of sunlight.

Patrick> "In the "City of Stone" flashbacks, Demona's refugee clan roosted in caves."
So did the Wyvern clan before the castle was built. I doubt very much that there were enough cave openings in the cliffs for the entire clan to sleep in sunlight, and they'd have to be insane to sleep along the top of the cliff, where they'd be too vulnerable. Maybe the clan slept at the base of the cliffs, where Demona hid during the massacre, but... I tend to agree that sunlight probably isn't absolutely vital. Humans are supposed to get _some_ sunlight every day (something involving vitamins that I can't remember), so it's a pretty safe bet that it's the same with gargoyles, i.e. sunlight helps them to be healthy, but they can probably live without it.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 01:58:03 AM
IP: 129.21.11.31

GABRIEL - You wrote: [in "Revelations," Matt notes how there is enough food to feed a family up in the clocktower.]

Actually he says that there was enough food to feed a family of gorillas. Stone Sleep probably does act to give some supplimental energy to the Gargoyles to keep them from spending most of their time eating to keep up their energy. But they would still have to eat a bit more than a human being - there is a size difference to consider also.



MOONCAT - You wrote: [But it does tickle me to see people take a wierd science bit and try to justify it by trying to prove it could really happen in RL.]

I'm not trying to come up with a justification for pseudo-science to function in the real world. What I'm trying to do in this discussion is apply the pseudo-science of a fictional universe in that fictional universe. Stone sleep isn't real and I'm not interested in whatever effect it could have if it did exist in the real world. I am however trying to apply the effect of Stone Sleep in the fictional universe where it does "exist".

In the Gargoyles Universe the Gargoyles have Stone Sleep and it must have some explination behind it. What I'm trying to discuss/debate/argue is how to apply the pseudo-science we've been given to a specific group of Gargoyles in a specific situation.

I'm not trying to figure how it might work in the real world because that's not the question of this debate - the question is given that we know about Stone Sleep in the Gargoyles Universe, and we figure that it must have some effect on the characters. So what effect would it have on the Labyrinth Clan of the late 20th early 21st century who reside underground as of the last time we've seen them?

You wrote: [I love Gargoyles, but I use my suspension of disbelief a lot when I watch the show, most especially during the 'scientific' explanations for the gargs.]

I don't mind suspending disbelief but it is a serious fictional universe. I suspend disbelief in accepting that they could absorb enough energy in one day to suppliment enough energy to be able to fly around without needing to eat all the time. But I am trying to apply consistancy in how I suspend disbelief. If I'm accepting that one group of Gargoyles can do that and that the same rules apply to all of them (unless specifically changed for a specific reason like the Mayan Clan and its Magic Amulet or a future Antarctic Clan with its Master Matrix technology) then I start wondering why it isn't being applied to the Labyrinth Clone Gargoyles and their descendents underground. Stone Sleep does something for the Gargoyles in this universe and given that I start to wonder what the Labyrinth Clan have that is substituting for that or if there even is something substituting for it; if there isn't then is there some effect of not sleeping in sunlight? Would they have to move to "higher ground" to deal with that effect, etc?

Ultimately its all speculation on pseudo-science in a fictional universe. But its a universe thats been given some rules and that we are spending time talking about. So I'm accepting some things and questioning others - it all just makes for fun discussion (for me anyway and I hope for others as well). I'm not going to start applying fiction to reality.



MATT - You wrote: [well i've been thinking alot about Sevarius's theory and i'm beginning to think that its more wrong than right.]

I'm thinking just the opposite way - I think that he got more right than wrong but that he's not absolutely right and that there is tons of leeway in it. But the basic principle of the theory seems sound - that Stone Sleep is a means of gathering energy. What energy, how much energy, how important the energy they get is, those are up in the air at this point and can all be speculation.

You wrote: [and thats the ability to fly instead of glide.]

Actually was he trying to do that purposefully? We know he was trying to create a Gargoyle-like creature that had the strength, speed, agility and wings of a Gargoyle - but was he thinking of actual flight or of Gargoyle gliding? I don't know if he was ever specific in that regard. (It's been a while since I've seen the episode so I don't exactly remember.)

But lets say that he messed up and thought of flight instead of gliding (which could be possible - Thailog was still in development at that point and he didn't have an actual Gargoyle to look at while he was doing Mutate design). That would explain a hole in the theory stating that the Gargoyles need as much energy as he figured. But its still obvious that they do need much more energy than they would get from the limited amount of eating that they do. And stone sleep would still provide it, just not on the level that we previously assumed it was doing.

(And on the other hand if he didn't mess up its possible that the Mutates should glide but use their wings for flight instead and thus use up more energy than they are being supplied with. That would explain why they have to eat so much more despite being supplied energy by the eel glands they have.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:12:47 PM
IP: 12.88.116.172

I think most land-dwelling animals do require sunlight in some way, not totally so as plants do, but enough to metabolize energy. Even humans can't survive without sunlight though I suppose humans could still live perhaps decades without it, unlike plants, we'd all just be albino and sunburn easily. I think from what I can remember from basic biology, the sun's UV rays help DNA production or add to the normal regulation of skin cells in humans. But of course, too much is a bad thing. That may not be entirely right, but I believe it's something like that. Maybe the gargs really don't require alot of sunlight and/or do eat alot, but the animators never showed them eating, because it wasn't very important.

My two cents...again.
Jim R.
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:31:25 PM
IP: 65.173.70.233

ok, this may be a double post, but its been hours since that last post... and what i have to say goes along with my last post anyway!

i've been reading a book called Encyclopedia of Animals and i came across an interesting quote about sloths, "...sloths meet some of their energy requirements by basking in the sun in the canopy of trees." there you go, an animal (not a plant) which gets energy from the sun.
i wonder what Lord Sloth will say about this...
matt
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 09:35:12 PM
IP: 207.230.48.83

Mooncat> yes, some of the science in Gargoyles seems unlikely and fantastic, but so does so many things we've discovered already. Einstein's theories of relativity are generally accepted and i still have a hard time understanding them. gargoyles may seem to have incredible abilities, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. there are animals in the world who have far more incredible abilities than our beloved gargs. even things we find commonplace are incredible. a birds ability to know which way is south, a spiders web being pound for pound far stronger than steel, a bears ability to smell food miles away, all these seem incredible (and they are) but they exist. i would need to know more about gargoyles as a species before i could say that they couldn't exist, from what we know so far, they seem believable.
just for the record, i don't believe gargoyles exist though, i'm just saying they could if evolution went that direction...

garg energy> well i've been thinking alot about Sevarius's theory and i'm beginning to think that its more wrong than right. i think he got one thing wrong in his head and that screwed up his whole theory.
hes making these mutates for Xanatos. wants something like a gargoyle, ok. well, he made the mutates with oneability that the gargoyles don't have (among several). and thats the ability to fly instead of glide. you'll see that when the mutates are airborne thier wings are moving more than a gargoyles, sometimes they are beating very quickly. that takes ALOT more energy than casually gliding, like the gargs do. and thats where Sevarius screwed up. its very possible he thought the gargoyles fly instead of glide and therefore needed more energy than they do. and he had no idea where that energy for the gargs to fly was coming from cuz they were not eating three cows a day, so he came up with the stone sleep/solar collecting theory. to get around that problem with the mutates, he put in certain traits from the electric eels. so perhaps the gargoyles never needed all that energy anyway, maybe Sevarius was wrong. if so, i doubt it matters much where the gargoyles sleep, though they may, like the eggs, absorb heat a bit, and therefore tend to sleep in sunlit. thats my best theory, what do you guys think?
i suppose its also possible that the gargoyles have the same energy storing organs that the electric eels have, or something similar...
matt
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 01:21:27 PM
IP: 207.230.53.16

Stone sleep and sunlight - Well, of all Gargoyles things, the theory that Gargs absorb sunlight or solar energy to make up for the power difference of roughly three cows has always been the most ridiculous to me. Psuedo/wierd science is always jarring when so much care is taken with the rest of the details of a fictional universe. But I am willing to accept it because it's Greg W's universe and he can make any kind of wierd science he wants for it and say it's true for that universe.

But it does tickle me to see people take a wierd science bit and try to justify it by trying to prove it could really happen in RL. Greg W pretty much pointed out he is not big in the biological sciences. He made up something that sounded good to him, put it into the show as a 'theory', and that is pretty much that.

I'm not terribly big in bio sciences either, but I'm pretty sure that the energy needs of (three cows???) a highly active creature like a gargoyle could not be met by absorbing an Earth day's worth of sunlight/solar energy. Yes, we do have real living organisms that get their energy by converting sunlight. They are called plants. We don't often see them scurrying around all over the place, do we?

There's a reason we don't commonly use solar powered cars instead of gasoline powered ones.

But we are talking about a fictional universe where a living organism transforms daily between states of flesh and stone (or stone like matter, but whatever it is it's different from flesh) -- the power cost of a constant periodic change like that probably would eat up more energy than flying around all night.

But it doesn't matter because this is a fantasy universe with whatever strange fantasy physical laws the writers give it.

I love Gargoyles, but I use my suspension of disbelief a lot when I watch the show, most especially during the 'scientific' explanations for the gargs.

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:11:33 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

I think one thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that in "Rrevelations," Matt notes how there is enough food to feed a family up in the clocktower. I think the sun acts more of something like that would bring them down to a normal (normal meaning human) metabolism.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:06:04 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

MATT - You wrote: [Are we all in agreement that for some reason gargoyles are drawn to sleeping in sunlit places if possible and the most likely reason is Sevarius's theory?]

I think that they do tend to head for sunlight to sleep but that its not a big deal for them if they don't make it for a day or two or three. But that they might have a preference for sleeping in the sunlight rather than underground.

As for Sevarius' theory, largely I can accept it. I don't think though that he was a hundred percent correct. I think that he might have gotten specifics wrong here and there. But as a general idea to explain Stone Sleep, it makes sense as an acceptable theory.



PATRICK - You wrote: [Out of all the things Anton Sevarius ever said - many of which later turned out to be total baloney if not outright lies - why is it that so many people latch on to the "solar power" and "three cows" theories with such literal and gleeful abandon?]

Because it does actually make a certain degree of sense. Even if he was wrong on specifics or was exaggerating on purpose, it's still a great explination for Stone Sleep.

And even distrusting anything Sevarius says, we still have to take into accout that he was actually trying to create a Gargoyle substitute in the Mutates. And that the energy needs were a major part of that development that he was forced to address and that is visibly seen whenever they show up.

He might have been wrong on some things and might have been guessing on others and could have been lying on some things but when it comes down to it, in order to create an almost Gargoyle he had to find an energy source for the wings which he did through the eels. (And even with that the Mutates had to eat a tremendous amount - remember their meal in THE CAGE? So they are still lacking a bit in energy needs. But the Gargoyles don't seem to have that same problem which is crying out for a sensible explination. And that is something that Sevarius' theory fits nicely.) Unless something better comes along the theory makes more sense to accept than to reject.

You wrote: [Perhaps there IS indeed something about sunlight which is beneficial to a slumbering gargoyle, but I think there's ample evidence to support the case that sleeping in the sun is nowhere near as critical as some folks seem to want to think it is.]

I'm not saying that a Gargoyle is going to drop dead if he or she doesn't have access to sunlight for a very long period of time - I just think if this is supplying them with some excess energy that they need then they are going to feel its effects. They might not be strong enough to glide for example; or they may have to start eating much more to suppliment the lost sunlight energy. Stone sleep has to have a reason and do something or its just an easy way to make them vulnerable for story purposes.

You wrote: [In the "City of Stone" flashbacks, Demona's refugee clan roosted in caves.]

Actually they roosted at the mouth of a cave; most of them were near the opening where light was coming through. Demona, who was a little further in the cave when Macbeth and Canmore found her, still had light coming down on her.

You wrote: [Greg says there's an entire clan in the Antarctic, that by definion goes for months at a time without seeing the sun.]

He didn't say anything about it existing currently, only that it will come into existance sometime between now and 2198 when technology can substitute whatever nature is lacking. He did keep mentioning how there would be a Master Matrix regulating the weather. It could probably substitute artificially whatever they lose from a six month blackout. But did he ever say that there is a clan in Antarctica around 1996-2002 or earlier? The way he described it, it seems to be an innovation of the future when some answer can be found to this difficulty. Did he ever mention that there was a possibility for it to exist in the current time period independent of any technology or magic?

You wrote: [We've seen gargoyles turn to stone while underground or inside buildings.]

But not for extended periods of time - a day or two at the most. We've never seen any Gargoyles who've had to live permanently underground without going above ground to sleep. Every instance of sleeping indoors is usually involuntary, and short term.

You wrote: [We've seen gargoyles with magic pendants who don't turn to stone at all.]

But with that Magic is substituting. Magic and technology aren't being ruled out as ways to get around sunlight recharge needs.

You wrote: [And how many cloudy, overcast, rainy days per year are there in New York City, Scotland, or London anyway?]

Again mostly limited periods of time - a day or two or three. We're not talking years or months here. And by the way weather in NYC is pretty good even in wintertime. But even then we're accepting that they need all that sunlight provides. What if its only a specific form of radiation the sun is putting out that helps the recharge? Sevarius was only giving a theory and could have been wrong on specifics. Radiation and some sunlight still get through on cloudy days.

You wrote: [And yet all these gargoyles wake up every night and still function just fine. So it sure doesn't seem to me like exposure to the sun is as dire a necessity as Sevarius conjectured it to be.]

We don't actually know that for sure. They could wake up feeling a little weak or with a greater hunger than they usually do. We don't actually get a chance to see that given the limits of a single episode.

But still no one is arguing that a limited time of not being in the sun in daylight is going to kill them or have a terrible effect on them. The question is about lack of long term exposure. Can they live like Morlocks or would a life like that become impossible to sustain?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:37:00 AM
IP: 12.88.93.78

Re the Antarctic clan: that would be the one living in New Camelot, of course, and Greg Weisman mentioned that conditions there were different from the rest of Antarctica, apparently thanks to the Master Matrix Computer controlling the weather; he indicated that that would apparently have some impact on the six months of light/six months of darkness cycle for that region, although not the precise details. (Of course, after the Space-Spawn make off with the Master Matrix, the Antarctic gargoyles of New Camelot would have to put up with that polar cycle, although they and the humans at New Camelot would probably be more concerned with the general case of conditions there getting a lot colder all of a sudden.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 07:24:59 AM
IP: 65.56.174.182

Out of all the things Anton Sevarius ever said - many of which later turned out to be total baloney if not outright lies - why is it that so many people latch on to the "solar power" and "three cows" theories with such literal and gleeful abandon?

Perhaps there IS indeed something about sunlight which is beneficial to a slumbering gargoyle, but I think there's ample evidence to support the case that sleeping in the sun is nowhere near as critical as some folks seem to want to think it is. In the "City of Stone" flashbacks, Demona's refugee clan roosted in caves. Greg says there's an entire clan in the Antarctic, that by definion goes for months at a time without seeing the sun. We've seen gargoyles turn to stone while underground or inside buildings. We've seen gargoyles with magic pendants who don't turn to stone at all. And how many cloudy, overcast, rainy days per year are there in New York City, Scotland, or London anyway? And yet all these gargoyles wake up every night and still function just fine. So it sure doesn't seem to me like exposure to the sun is as dire a necessity as Sevarius conjectured it to be.
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 07:15:27 AM
IP: 67.38.250.36

Garg energy> i'm just gonna sum up the thoughts of the day... are we all in agreement that for some reason gargoyles are drawn to sleeping in sunlit places if possible and the most likely reason is Sevarius's theory?
whenever i think about the Clones living in the Labyrinth i remember Demona's line in "Long Way til Morning" when she says, 'is he foolish enough to go underground where he can't use his wings?' and Human Goliath's actions in The Mirror when he goes to street level " where her (Demona's) wings will be of no use..." it seems the use of wings are very important to a gargoyle, but not much use underground. with that and the need for energy i'm beginning to doubt that the Clones would stay very long in the Labyrinth. i do like the idea of the Clones living at the Clocktower (or whats left of it...) kinda neat...
the funny thing is, if the show is ever brought back on, i doubt these issues will be addressed. the Clones will probably just live in the Labyrinth, even if in our minds it wouldn't work!
matt
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 03:18:10 AM
IP: 207.230.48.49

............When I went to the Disney store to look for those Gargoyles pins, I noticed that they had other pins for cartoons that also haven't been out in a while (Tale Spin, etc.)

I started thinking(a very dangerous thing I do), with all this talk of Gargoyles coming out to DVD, will other cartoons make it out also. We should see how the other ones are set up and packaged, say, if Ducktales were to come out, how would they set up those first episodes.

By the way, they didn't have the pins, so I'll have to keep searching.

Vin
castle0909
Tuesday, July 16, 2002 02:00:02 AM
IP: 152.163.188.164

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Sevarius only guessed that gargoyles store solar energy while they sleep. No one said he guessed right. Even he said it was just his theory.]

This is true. It is only a theory. But at the same time his theory does make a lot of sense. I could see him being slightly off on the specifics of it but largely it does sound very sensible.



MATT - You wrote: [Greg did say that spending one or two days underground wouldn't much affect a gargoyle.]

True. But there is a difference between spending a day or two or three to living underground almost constantly. Broadway spending a day in a basement (THE SILVER FALCON) or Angela spending a day in a cave (MONSTERS) shouldn't have too much effect. But the clones in the Labyrinth on a constant basis, that should have some effect.

Maybe I'm overexaggerating it in my mind - it could be possible that most of what they get from sunlight they can get from thermal heat. But I think that there just might be something in sunlight that they can't get underground unless its specifically simulated for them. (If the Labyrinth had some sort of lighting system that was almost a copy of sunlight that could be an answer. But we don't have any evidence that the Mutates have something like that or could even on their own afford something like that. And I can't see them rushing to let Xanatos put something like that it.)

You wrote: [my guess is that these gargs probably DON'T sleep underground. they go outside at dawn, just as the Manhattan Clan did when living at the Clocktower.]

I'd figure that too except for two reasons:

First is that the Labyrinth is deep underground; it took Hudson a while to get there and then get out. So its a huge pain to head out somewhere to sleep every night; it'd be easier to find a new home closer to the outside rather than "commute". :-)

Second, in post THE JOURNEY Manhattan, it wouldn't be safe for Gargoyles to sleep outside in an unprotected area. Unless they found a way to get whatever energy they need artificially I would really figure that the clones might have to move upward.

Maybe they could even move into the Clocktower! It would be justice of a sort in that it would show that the Hunters were unable to drive Gargoyles permanently from their home. (It would be a return of sorts even though they are just clones of the original occupants.) It is above a police station. The Quarrymen aren't going to attack them there since they'd lose more in terms of public relations; and they Castaway wouldn't be able to go shoot it with a missile since it would just set the government looking for his brother and sister as suspects. (He also might not be bright enough to figure out that Gargoyles might move back there; insanity does tend to cloud judgement after all.)



JIM R - You wrote: [Perhaps the Labyrinth clan has some physically adaptable feature since they were genetically created from scratch. Sevarius might have added this feature (or gene) so the clones could potentially live anywhere.]

Other than aging them I don't really see Sevarius altering the clones in any way. And with Delilah he only really put in enough of Elisa that she'd just look like her. The rest was really just a clone of Demona and not much else difference. (Elisa's head on Demona's body; I've never actually stated that out to myself because that's what obviously happened but for some reason it really strikes me as a bit funny, especially thinking what Goliath and Elisa might have figured when they saw Delilah for the first time. And it must have been the exact words Demona had going through her mind - I knew that too and saw her reaction but never really thought about how insulting it would really be to her. I wonder what Delilah would think of the description?)

You wrote: [There has to be some sunlight in the sewers. That may be just enough for the Labyrinth clan to survive.]

The main Lab seems to be really deep underground. They'd probably have to head out of the guarded sanctuary just to get to a little sunlight and wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having the protection of living in the Labyrinth?

You wrote: [Their overall makeup/structure seems to make the clones less likely to get tired quickly.]

A clone is just a copy; it would think differently, react differently and might be stronger or weaker depending on how hard it worked at developing that strength but it would still just be a copy. Except for Delilah who's only change was made to have her look like Elisa, I don't think that the clones were that different physically that the originals.

You wrote: [The clones might get out more often during the day (to turn to stone) then we may think. Talon sure knows his way around and being stealthy as Goliath and clan, so he probably helps the clones avoid getting seen by humans.]

After THE JOURNEY to leave them at ground level in a private place in daylight would seem like an invitation to getting them smashed. If they were on a structure like the Public Library or one of the Skyscrappers then I could see them getting away with it. (After all The Quarrymen are just as much about public relations than about smashing Gargoyles and so wouldn't be able to mount attacks on sleeping Gargoyles in really public places in daylight; setting an ambush for after dark though is a different matter.) But if they are doing that, going somewhere else to sleep everynight, then are they really living in the Labyrinth? Or just spending time there because they have no better place to be? (And besides if Thailog wanted them back would it be a good idea to keep them in the Labyrinth, a place he knows about or somewhere else that he might not know about?)



JIMMY - You wrote: [They might be able to absordb energy from the lighting fixtures, and the ambient heat.]

It's possible but I'm not so sure that I'm sold on the idea. It would really depend on what exactly they are getting out of sunlight. Who says after all that its just one type of energy that they need? What if they need the multiple forms that sunlight gives and that they couldn't get in combination unless it was specifically provided artificially?

You wrote: [According to Greg, the eggs in the rookery absorbed ambient heat, so why not a full grown Gargoyle?]

An egg is a lot smaller and would need less energy. Plus while a rookery might be designed (or picked out) because it could supply eggs with such heat, would the same room space be able to supply a necessary amount of energy to a clan of fully grown Gargoyles?



IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [Did you see Stitch made off with Jasmine in the police cruiser? :D]

Yeah; I was laughing for about five minutes :-) I still liked the BEAUTY AND THE BEAST promo though; first time I saw it was actually in the movies and at the time I thought that they were about to advertise a rerelease. And then Stitch showed up and it just got so hillarious! I was shocked and amused at the same time.

You wrote: [Star Trek: The Next Generation (Season 3), Love Hina vol. 3, Watership Down and A Beautiful Mind]

I've seen LOVE HINA digisubbed; I intend to pick up the DVD's as soon as I free up the cash. It's ok but I still like the manga better.

You wrote: [I'm looking forward to John Q., Escaflowne: The Movie, Speed, and Resident Evil]

I can't wait to see the ESCAFLOWNE movie; I saw the trailer for it on the last ESCAFLOWNE DVD and it just looked so visually appealing. But be warned, its a sort of alternate universe approach; if your looking for a continuation of the original TV series then look elsewhere.

My recent DVD purchases were mainly limited to EXCEL SAGA, NIEA UNDER SEVEN, and PRINCESS NINE. I highly recommend all three series to everyone here; solid stories and extremely enjoyable.



TODD - You wrote: [Certainly we've seen cases in the series where gargoyles are able to function fine without being exposed to the sun during their stone sleep - Broadway's case in "The Silver Falcon" is the most obvious one.]

But that's really only a limited period of time. We've never actually seen the effects of prolonged sunlight deprivation on Gargoyles in the series. A day or two or three, perhaps up to a week might not have a major effect. But a month? We've never really seen that.

(The closest to that would be Demona's imprisionment in THE RECKONING but she doesn't turn to stone anymore so that example doesn't really count. And to be honest most of the time in the series when Gargoyles go to sleep (under normal circumstances - when they are home or not being hunted or having to sleep where they happen to be) they tend to head outside like they are instinctively drawn to being out in the sun, like they know that they are getting something out of it that they wouldn't get from sleeping indoors.)



LYNATI - You wrote: [Recall, he did place a clan in Anarctica, where there is no sun for a full six months. If gargoyles needed direct, daily sunlight to live, a clan would not have been able to live there.]

But by the time they live there technology can substitute. The question I wonder about is in the current time where the Labyrinth clan is existing without major outside support and without substitute technology to help them.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 15, 2002 11:38:39 PM
IP: 12.88.94.80

*Lynati steps in and throws out her two cents*
The gargs stone-sleep theory:
Greg Weisman has never confirmed or denied exactly what it is that gargs absorb for energy during stone sleep...Sevarius's guess about Solar power was one from a scientifically-oriented mind; Gargoyles has shown enough evidence in its reality that science may not be the only solution for things.
I think that one of the things Gargoyles absorb in stone-sleep is magical energy; the energy given off by all living things. That's not to say they don't absorb light or heat as well. Heh, for all we know they could have ways of absorbing kinetic energy, too. *shrugs*
Recall, he did place a clan in Anarctica, where there is no sun for a full six months. If gargoyles needed direct, daily sunlight to live, a clan would not have been able to live there.
*out*
Lynati
Monday, July 15, 2002 08:44:22 PM
IP: 141.156.162.186

Re Sevarius's theory: I've sometimes suspected that Broadway regularly eats the equivalent of three cows a night, even though he may not need to. :) (And, yes, I'm sorry about that; I know that there's a lot more to him than just eating - as "Deadly Force", "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", and his relationship with Angela have all shown - but a part of me has felt strongly tempted to say that for some time now).

Moving on more seriously, it is quite likely that Sevarius wasn't quite accurate in his conclusions. Certainly we've seen cases in the series where gargoyles are able to function fine without being exposed to the sun during their stone sleep - Broadway's case in "The Silver Falcon" is the most obvious one.

The most likely solution would be for the Clones to find some place in the sewers where sunlight can reach them in the daytime (but which, presumably, the Quarrymen and other anti-gargoyle mobs won't be likely to discover).

For that matter, it does raise the question of how Goliath and his clan will be able to handle it, given that, in the situation directly after "Hunter's Moon", roosting out in the open isn't all that advisable. Of course, they do have the advantage of living (and thereby, roosting during the daytime) in the residence of a private citizen, and a wealthy one at that, which makes it not quite so tenable for Castaway or anyone else to mount an open attack in the daytime upon the Eyrie Building. Especially since I would imagine that Castaway knows that the Quarrymen can't afford that sort of negative publicity (going after the gargoyles with hammers is potentially controversial enough because of the vigilantism issue, but attacking Xanatos's home would make that even worse).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 15, 2002 06:39:49 PM
IP: 63.208.46.176

From last week:

Jurgan: <<It was pretty good, though certainly no Lion King, but really, what is?>>
Tezuka's Kimba the White Lion? *snickers*
(Not meaning to start a flame/rant! Just being silly!)

Airwalker: <<I took a look at it; loved Aladdin's reaction :-)>>
Did you see Stitch made off with Jasmine in the police cruiser? :D

<<I can't wait to see GARGOYLES DVDs on the shelf too, then flooding everywhere, selling well, reviving the series, bring along a few spinoffs, helping a comic and novel series start up...... you know so on and so forth.>>
One step at a time there ^_^

<<You pick up any interesting DVDs recently?>>
Star Trek: The Next Generation (Season 3), Love Hina vol. 3, Watership Down and A Beautiful Mind

The selection is kinna low this month. I'm looking forward to John Q., Escaflowne: The Movie, Speed, and Resident Evil
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 15, 2002 05:54:59 PM
IP: 207.126.67.35

They might be able to absordb energy from the lighting fixtures, and the ambient heat. According to Greg, the eggs in the rookery absorbed ambient heat, so why not a full grown Gargoyle?

About the Two Towers petition> Some people on the Internet have a great deal of pent, misdirected rage. Just look at some of those signatures, I agre with them, but the fact that they got themselves caught up in such a hateful fervor over such a small issue scares me. I mean jeez, most of the posts didn't even make sense beyond the slew of profanity. (Of course that could just be due to stupidity.) They're probably just lashing out all their anger through the anonymity of the net since doing so in real life would get them a punch in the face.
Jimmy
Monday, July 15, 2002 05:50:21 PM
IP: 172.161.35.70

Hey all! Well, here I am, experimenting with eBay. My first item for sale: the Gargoyles READ poster. If all goes well, additional items will follow! Help a poor college student in need, hehe, and take a click-see on the link below. ;)
Desdemona - [allykatty1@hotmail.com]
Monday, July 15, 2002 05:22:51 PM
IP: 4.40.20.141

Err...15th then! Matt just had to slip a post in before me... :)
Jim R.
Monday, July 15, 2002 05:04:59 PM
IP: 65.164.19.132

14th! Yeah...

Been busy all last week, so I never had time to check much other than email.

Airwalker/Labyrinth clan> Hmm...I'm gonna take some popshots at this one even if they aren't Greg Weisman-correct.

1. Perhaps the Labyrinth clan has some physically adaptable feature since they were genetically created from scratch. Sevarius might have added this feature (or gene) so the clones could potentially live anywhere.
2. There has to be some sunlight in the sewers. That may be just enough for the Labyrinth clan to survive.
3. Their overall makeup/structure seems to make the clones less likely to get tired quickly.
4. The clones might get out more often during the day (to turn to stone) then we may think. Talon sure knows his way around and being stealthy as Goliath and clan, so he probably helps the clones avoid getting seen by humans.

I can't think of any other reasons, but I'm sure others might have different ones.

The Two Towers post from last week> Anyone wanting to change the name of a book/movie title that was written long before 9/11 is just plain stupid. It just happens to be a coincidence and I think most people realize that, but there's always some who can't look past the controversial.
Jim R. - [email-jim@lycos.com]
Monday, July 15, 2002 04:58:19 PM
IP: 65.164.19.132

Airwalker> thank you for FINALLY starting a discussion...

Garg Energy> i once asked Greg if Sevarius's theory that gargs store solar energy was indeed, true. he said "I buy it." so thats more or less a conformation that its a fact. i know several people have asked Greg about what kind of energy they take from sunlight. Greg has responded by saying 'thermal' but other energy types have been suggested, such as ultraviolet. Greg did say that spending one or two days underground wouldn't much affect a gargoyle
Airwalker's question is a good one. and is one that has implications not just for the Labyrinth Clan, but other underground/cave-dwelling clans as well (Korean, Loch Ness).
my guess is that these gargs probably DON'T sleep underground. they go outside at dawn, just as the Manhattan Clan did when living at the Clocktower. perhaps gargoyles have a natural urge to sleep in places that will get alot of sunlight and thats why they sleep outside on high places. i've also noticed that gargs tend to spread open their wings when they turn to stone. i think that this may be to collect more solar energy during the day.
just some theories...

later
matt
Monday, July 15, 2002 04:45:31 PM
IP: 207.230.48.107

AIRWALKER> An important thing to keep in mind is that Sevarius only guessed that gargoyles store solar energy while they sleep. No one said he guessed right. Even he said it was just his theory.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, July 15, 2002 04:18:09 PM
IP: 216.179.2.123

12!

My, it sure is a quiet day around here. So I figure I'll throw something out and try to get some conversation going. But first:



LORD SLOTH - You wrote: [I'm now somewhat jealous of Airwalker and his ability to comment so often; but I'm sure I'll be back in the circle sooner or later.]

You know I don't actually intend to type out as much as I end up doing. But once I get to typing and my mind starts working, my post ends up looking like the opening of an epic. :-)



Here's a GARGOYLES question that I really should submit to ASKGREG but figure might generate some more discussion here first:

We know that Gargoyles require the recharge that stone sleep gives them or their energy requirement would be in the area of 3 cows a day. Now we also know that they can go for a while sleeping indoors without really becoming extremely weak and/or hungry. But how would the Labyrinth Gargoyles be able to deal with this?

The clones after all might come above ground to glide around a bit and maybe escape some cabin fever but as far as we know tend to spend most time underground, including stone sleep time. After a while wouldn't the situation become untenable for both them and the Mutates?

After all wouldn't the clones now have to eat almost constantly to keep up their energy? And wouldn't that sort of situation leave food bills at such a point that the Mutates wouldn't be able to afford it? (We also have to factor into all of this the fact that the Mutates aren't only dealing with the Gargoyle clones - they also have a small human population that is depending on them.)

So wouldn't it be possible that the Labyrinth clan would have to relocate aboveground after a while? And considering the situation in the City post HUNTERS MOON/THE JOURNEY would it really be safe for them to live above ground but not with (or very near) Manhattan Clan? (And so can you really have two Gargoyles clans living in more or less the same area and in interaction with each other without eventually having them sort of merge a bit de facto if not de jure?)

But at the same time ASKGREG information tells us that as far as G2198 the Labyrinth Clan maintains a seperate character as an independent clan and is still living more or less in the same place as the original Labyrinth Clan. So how is the sunlight/energy problem for them solved without them moving above ground?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 15, 2002 02:45:12 PM
IP: 12.88.101.77

Oh, gee golly, guys. I'm eleventh. huzah. :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 15, 2002 11:14:10 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

10th! Just made it.
Morgana Fae - [mlz2883@aol.com]
Monday, July 15, 2002 04:58:10 AM
IP: 205.188.200.32

9TH!!!!
matt
Monday, July 15, 2002 01:53:24 AM
IP: 207.230.48.8

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
8th (first time I believe)! Yes, I'm still alive and lurking; just been having some computer trouble, and my attention was needed in Slothatopia (for issues I'm not at liberty to discuss). But I am extremely pleased to see such activity in the CR again (I guess this happens after every Gathering eh?) and I'm now somewhat jealous of Airwalker and his ability to comment so often; but I'm sure I'll be back in the circle sooner or latter. The main reason I is busy is that, for once, I'm finally working in order to have some money for myself when I start College in 1.5 months <shivers in fear> and I'll maybe be able to afford trying out this gathering 2003 plan <shivers in excitement>. All right, so maybe I'm working for both of my parents and my neighbor with paint striping and cat sitting jobs, but it's still really quite an achievement for my lazy self, and I should get $900 in the bargain. So I should be able to do this gathering as long as I keep my wallet as tight as I usually do; and if not, I'm sure I can work out something with my Pa, who might be interested in going along. We shall see...
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth - [spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Kingston, ON, Canada
Monday, July 15, 2002 01:23:16 AM
IP: 216.209.138.23

WHat do ye know...

A top spot!
Fire Storm and Lady Mystic
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:52:32 AM
IP: 216.254.103.139

6th?
MC
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:48:54 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

5th
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
the Insane One.
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:40:37 AM
IP: 209.208.54.96

4TH!!! :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:23:40 AM
IP: 208.54.204.208

Guess Me'll be #3 for the hell of it. Woo! *bounces around the room*
Wingless
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:20:46 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

Top Ten
First????
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:01:26 AM
IP: 216.148.246.134

Huh! First! :)
warrioress
Monday, July 15, 2002 12:01:23 AM
IP: 64.219.128.150