Comments for the week ending July 28, 2003

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Todd> must be your King Arthur pic...
matt
Sunday, July 27, 2003 07:26:13 PM
IP: 207.230.48.38

Whoa, somebody thinks that I actually run the Gargoyle Fan Website? What on earth did I do to give somebody that impression?

In any case, sorry, Coma-Man, but as Patrick pointed out, Chris is the one who does that, not me.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 27, 2003 06:35:28 PM
IP: 171.75.194.103

Todd > According to The History Channel, Custer's still a "legend" and "American hero" despite the outcome of the Little Big Horn. Demona made bad strategic choices that got her whole band of followers killed, too, yet she's villified. The only major difference is that she escaped death on a technicality... so go figure.

Coma Man > Gargoyles-fans.org is run by Chris Rogers, not Todd. So if you have comments and suggestions, he's the man to send them to.
Patrick
Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:01:02 AM
IP: 65.43.144.120

Coma-man: Xanatos refering to Bewitched when he asks Owen to swing the nose to fix Coldstone in "Possession"
Denis - [d.deplaen@lft.be]
Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:42:48 AM
IP: 217.136.18.91

The Coma-man: Contest: Well, let's start off easy:
Her Brothers Keeper. Reference to Star Trek (Oh yeah? You and what Starfleet?) and Star Wars (Yeah, use the Force Lex!)
Fire Storm
Sunday, July 27, 2003 09:45:53 AM
IP: 208.143.21.10

A question @ Todd:

When are you going to update your website? No new design/entry/update/news since 1999... and so much has happenned since this (DVDs, Gathering, etc.etc.pp.)... just wanted to say gargoyles-fans.org is great, but it really should get a new design and some updates...
The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Sunday, July 27, 2003 09:35:06 AM
IP: 217.87.26.52

Just got the idea for a new contest:

Name all film/book/music (?) quotes (scenes and dialogue) that are hidden in Gargoyles. Disney-and Shakespeare-releated quotes DON'T count!!! (toooooo manny and too easily to find)

So, try it, hard work...

Coma-man
The Coma-man
Berlin, germany
Sunday, July 27, 2003 09:30:49 AM
IP: 217.87.26.52

I'm not sure that General Custer is viewed as much a hero these days as he used to be, although I suspect that that may be more due to "PC attitudes" towards the Indian Wars in the West than to his failings as a general....
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 26, 2003 09:33:13 PM
IP: 171.75.194.20

I just watched the last part of "City of Stone" again on Toon Disney this afternoon, so I feel inclined to comment...

It's very easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. It's a lot harder to be there in the moment, making the on-the-spot life or death decisions. Demona takes a lot of flak for failing to consider all possible outcomes of her choices, but how fair is it to expect that she could forsee every possible scenario that could have come to pass? Maybe she _did_ suspect that Canmore and his army wouldn't keep their word for long, but she just underestimated how quickly he'd betray her. Or maybe, in her anger at what she perceived as Macbeth's betrayal, her only immediate thought was to get her clan as far away from the Scots as possible.

If only some historical military leaders had their actions questioned in 20/20 hindsight so completely as those of the fictional Demona. Take Custer, for example. Overconfidence and poor planning led to the massacre of his entire army, let we call him a hero.
Patrick
Saturday, July 26, 2003 09:24:28 PM
IP: 65.43.152.122

I wouldn't say it would occur to Demona that she was doing the same thing, even if she thought about it. Her deal with the captain was to let the vikings remove the human's from the castle (allowing the gargoyles to live alone unopporessed in any form, yadda yadda.) Whereas her betrayal of Macbeth was fueled by fear of being betrayed by him first. She didn't think her clan was safe there anymore; and being the hothead that she is, she wanted to pay Macbeth back for what (she thought) he would have done. I don't think she considered the long term consequences of her actions (that it would aid other enemies) at all. She wasn't working with the invaders, by any means, though they shared a common goal.

... I'm just talkative tonight. I haven't posted here in over a year either :)
Ragnarok
Hfx., NS, Ca.
Saturday, July 26, 2003 09:05:30 PM
IP: 24.222.5.89

One more thought that I had about Demona deserting Macbeth for "the Hunter" in 1057; the more I think about it, the more stupid that action becomes, for two reasons:

1. Demona had already received ample evidence, in 994, that siding with an outside invader in order to resolve an internal dispute is a very bad idea; the deal with the Vikings wound up getting the clan destroyed as well as Princess Katharine and her people taken prisoner. She forgets that, however, and repeats her mistake, with the same results: her second clan is destroyed, while the humans whom she'd betrayed are defeated. (I find myself reminded of the old saying "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.")

2. It's all the more foolish when you consider that the Hunter and his English followers were invading Scotland on a "destroy all gargoyles" platform. What could possibly have led Demona to believe that she and her clan would get a favorable reception from them, even if they had deserted Macbeth and thus made things easier for the invaders? It has to count as one of the most poorly-thought-out decisions in her entire career.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 26, 2003 08:43:55 PM
IP: 171.75.194.20

TODD - You wrote: [he hardly deserves our sympathy]

Overall I agree that Gilcomgain isn't a character that deserves our sympathy. Particularly in adulthood. But when he first shows up its really hard not to feel ANY sympathy at all for him; he didn't deserve to be slashed.

(While its true that Demona probably would have had to do something because he was approaching her with a pitchfork and if he hadn't been so shocked by her appearance would have probably tried to fight/attack her, the response that she had was basically overkill. She could have disarmed him without slashing him across the face.)

The grumbling he was doing on his way to the stables wasn't something that characterizes evil; he was grumbling about having to do chores. And the lack of sympathy and comfort from his father after he reveals that he was hurt does urge sympathy and pity. Its really only after his father gives him a verbal slap in his wounded face, when he vows revenge on all Gargoyles, that sympathy and pity instantly disappears.

You wrote: [the other reason being his becoming a hired assassin who targeted humans like Findlaech.]

His being an assassin doesn't inspire sympathy but it does make sense; there wasn't really an organized army at the time and I doubt that any knight or lord would want to have someone scarred the way he was working as a squire. His choices are either peasant farm life or becoming an assassin.

You wrote: [But maybe it isn't so surprising given the way that medieval "blood-feud mentality" worked]

I strongly doubt that Gilcomgain's crusade against the Gargoyles in general rather than Demona in particular is really a blood-feud thing. First the way that he moves in his thinking is not blood feud but religious; he doesn't want to kill all Gargoyles because they are "related" to Demona but because he considers them to be evil Demons who have to be punished for that. Second is that a Blood feud has the ability to be mediated and dealt with more peacefully. Gillcomgain is less on a feud than he is on a crusade.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 26, 2003 05:58:47 PM
IP: 12.88.197.211

Thanks for the confirmation, Todd!

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, July 26, 2003 11:38:37 AM
IP: 142.179.239.74

Yes, Gillecomgain's decision to go after the entire gargoyle race because of Demona's action was crazy - and one reason why, despite the fact that Demona had indeed wronged him, he hardly deserves our sympathy; the other reason being his becoming a hired assassin who targeted humans like Findlaech. But maybe it isn't so surprising given the way that medieval "blood-feud mentality" worked; feuders would view the relatives of the wrong-doer as just as much legitimate targets as the wrong-doer himself. (Just one more reason why blood-feuds are so horrible.)

(Of course, there might have been a twisted logic behind such an outlook of "wipe out the enemy's family alongside him", as in, a means of ensuring that the enemy's family won't be able to avenge him upon you if you kill them first. But it's still horrible.)

BATTLE BEAST - Macbeth's wife's name was Gruoch.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 25, 2003 07:23:19 PM
IP: 171.75.195.34

Hey again...

TODD> Interesting points. [Gilcomgain... ...he had a very harsh and unsympathetic father...] Your right. One thing that got me was that his father didn't care that he was hurt: "I thought I told you to get the milk! What are you, a wee babe? scared of a few scratches, boy?" I know that if I had a Son who was just attacked and was bleeding from the face, I'd stop to ask him if he was all right at least, and get him some help!


Airwalker> Interesting... [In reality it can't really be something that is particularly enjoyable to look at. I can imagine all the looks he might have gotten as he grew up and even once he was an adult.]

I know where Gilcomgain is comming from. I had a small birth defect that some people thought was "gross" and gave me troubles, But I had it removed and that was the end of it. I also had an abusive father, and from my perspective, his father was a saint.

I never went "crazy" though; but he got his facal abnormality AFTER birth. It drove him over the edge, so to speak.

[Macbeth only seems to have understood that after CITY OF STONE and even then it only really hits him in SANCTUARY.]

I just feel sorry for Mac beth. he has to love, nothng to live for... he seems so sad... like he'd like to be with his old wife again... (I forget her name... what was it? Gluoch?)

Later~



Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, July 25, 2003 06:06:09 PM
IP: 142.179.239.74

TODD - You wrote: [Actually, it was Bodhe who wanted the secret meeting, not Macbeth.]

Yes, but it was Macbeth who basically lied about it and kept Demona out of it. (And yes I recognize that there wasn't really a way to reconsile Bodhe's desire for a secret meeting without keeping something from Demona but he could have done a better job at hiding it. It was his behavior that made her suspicious; he could have just as easily met with Bodhe while she was away at the battle with the Hunter rather than wait for her to get back to the castle.)

You wrote: [Greg Weisman gives his own analysis on the scene which indicates that Macbeth was definitely not even considering selling Demona out:]

The problem really is that while we as the audience know that Macbeth has no intentions to sell out Demona or her Clan, she doesn't know that or have the luxury to gamble on it. (The real betrayal and stupidity with Demona in this situation is not her removing the Clan from the Castle; that is not so problematic to me given what she heard. It was her taking the Clan to the Hunter that was foolishness and unforgivable.) It doesn't matter that she missed out on the final part of the conversation - he didn't even bother to give any signs early on in the conversation, not even in terms of body language. (I'm sure he would have acted differently if he knew he was being watched but the way he was acting but how he was acting when he doesn't think he is being watched is something that I think Demona and a lot of other people for that matter would take into much closer consideration than how he behaves in front of others.)

You wrote: [As for Goliath in "Awakening Part Four", the reason why he remembers about Elisa and goes off to meet her instead of spending time with Demona is that he's just seen her destroy an entire airship with lots of people on board - many of whom no doubt didn't even make it out in time - and is appalled at her ruthlessness. And who wouldn't be, either?]

The thing here is that while he has a right to be appalled by her ruthlessness as well as shocked given how different a person she is compared with what he remembers but he doesn't react with tact to it. He could have delayed meeting Elisa and then taken Demona aside to speak with her instead of arguing with her in front of the Clan.

(Although I can't really blame him on one point - he doesn't really know that the time difference between himself and Demona in being awake is different and that the seperation has been longer for her than for him. So he can't really know that leaving her to see Elisa at that point is not only much more insulting but also extremely hurtful. I do believe what she told him about having waited and dreamed about him for all that time.)

The real problem is Demona overreacted; she not only decided to kill Goliath but the entire Clan.


NICKEROUS - You wrote: [Anyone catch the Titans toon on Cartoon Network last weekend?]

I saw it; it was alright. The episode wasn't exactly what I would have started the series out on (it felt like it was more of a "we've already had a few episodes and you should know more or less how things are" than anything else) but its wasn't bad. The personalities do get establised pretty quickly although I felt that it could have used another ten minutes in terms of plot over action. It was more kid friendly than anything else and lack of time did lead to what could be seen as overreaction and jumps in logic in some points. (To those who saw it, I'm talking about the Lamentations over Robin about halfway into the episode.)

Personally I'd like to see more of it; the voice actors did well and it has promise. (Although I was disappointed they didn't get the same voice actor for Robin that they had in the more recent mainstream BATMAN series.) It was largely a cheerful beginning with some dark undertones (i.e. Deathstroke) that can build up to something later on. (I have seen some screencap previews for some future episodes and they do get into the whole Raven-Trigun plotline which I can't wait to see.)

The other thing that I enjoyed seeing was alot of the anime conventions making it into the series. It was fun to see those on mainstream DC characters. TEEN TITANS is probably the only series on TV right now that can legitimately claim to be American Anime.


BATTLEBEAST - You wrote: [I was wondering if Goliath was really mad at Brooklyn when he made the three little girls (the weird sisters) crumble to dust.]

I don't think so; it was clear that they were magical beings from the very beginning so while they may have been shocked by what happened, I don't think that Goliath or Brooklyn would have been angry about it.

You wrote: [What really surprised me was that Gilcomgain would go crazy with trying to kill demona for just a couple scratches.]

To us its just scratches based on the variation in animation but in reality it can't really be something that is particularly enjoyable to look at. I can imagine all the looks he might have gotten as he grew up and even once he was an adult. Its a good enough excuse to hate Demona; but its the leap in logic that he makes to hating all Gargoyles that seems crazy. Its a believable that he'd make the leap but that still makes it feel crazy.

You wrote: [Another thing that got me was the fact that MacBeth was trying to kill Demona because he is so tired of living... Demona could go on for another 1,000 years and not even bat an eye.]

Well besides the fact that Demona has major driving goals that Macbeth lacks, she had experience dealing with loss by 1057 that Macbeth didn't have. She already knew how to deal with it (in a way and to a certain extent) and still have a life of some sort. Macbeth only seems to have understood that after CITY OF STONE and even then it only really hits him in SANCTUARY.


DPH - You wrote: [If Macbeth had told people that Duncan had his father killed, that wouldn't help Canomore's cause]

Macbeth has a credability problem - he could legitimately be portrayed as a usurper; that automatically makes his message suspect. Canmore has the advantage in that he is on the ground in England and able to personally spread his version of events and in the end its his version that the English need to be spread to have a "legitimate" excuse to invade Scotland.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, July 25, 2003 12:35:30 PM
IP: 12.88.197.229

BATTLE BEAST - I think that much of Gillecomgain's murderous rage against Demona and desire for vengeance stemmed from the sort of person he was. We discover in "Hunter's Moon Part One" that he had a very harsh and unsympathetic father, which no doubt influenced him towards darkness.

When you stop to think it over, it's not so surprising that Demona should feel much less weariness than Macbeth over the past thousand years or so of life. Macbeth's had no real purpose during that time other than to hunt down Demona. Demona has a purpose in the form of her hatred of humanity and desire to see the entire race destroyed. It's a monstrous purpose, but it certainly does the job of keeping her from feeling weariness with it all on the same level as Macbeth.

The general evidence is that, while Puck is Owen, he's as vulnerable to magic as any other human is. (What surprised me more was that he was seriously considering the Grimorum Arcanorum as an option for breaking the spell; this, however, could always be explained by assuming that Puck doesn't know as much about human magic as he does about Third Race magic and therefore was not fully aware that you need a professional wizard to get a spell from the Grimorum cast properly.)

DPH - That's one possibility that I've considered. Still, I've submitted the question to "Ask Greg"; of course, given the size of the queue, it'll be a long time before Greg will be able to answer it, but at least he should get to it eventually.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 25, 2003 07:02:00 AM
IP: 171.75.194.13

Todd - <One thing that I find a bit odd (I definitely want to ask Greg about it) is that Canmore invades Scotland only as "the Hunter", not revealing his true identity until he corners Macbeth after defeating his forces and taking his
castle.> Macbeth assumedly has been running things, especially on the information front. If Macbeth had told people that Duncan had his father killed, that wouldn't help Canomore's cause and I get the feeling that Gillcomgain was busy with Duncan's wishes. Once word got out about who ordered all the assassinations, Duncan wouldn't be as popular.
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, July 25, 2003 02:23:18 AM
IP: 204.94.193.74

Hey all... I have been sooooo busy (four wedding and a funeral... literally) But I finally have a chance to post...

CITY OF STONE> I was wondering if Goliath was really mad at Brooklyn when he made the three little girls (the weird sisters) crumble to dust. I knew that Goliath had (as yet) no idea that the girls were who they were, so he couldn't have known that they were not dead.

What really surprised me was that Gilcomgain would go crazy with trying to kill demona for just a couple scratches.

And, I must admit, I thought that Canmore had come back to life when we first see MacBeth with the hood on. But I clued in pretty quickly.

There is a green Gargoyle with white hair (I think) that is next to Demona when when she is given her name. I always liked this Gargoyle, and I wished they had made a MAIN charater who looked like this.

Another thing that got me was the fact that MacBeth was trying to kill Demona because he is so tired of living... Demona could go on for another 1,000 years and not even bat an eye.

LASTLY, I love the use of the word "ALONE" I use it as my password from time to time. It's a handy little word that means so much. I love it.

Personally, I would have loved to see Bronx zooming around the sky in some kind of jet pack, But I realize someone had to gaurd Elisa... and Owen.

Oh, yes, Owen...

We know he is Puck. So why did he turn into stone? Is it because, as Greg stated, that he takes on all properties of what he turns into (but he can ONLY turn back into Puck?)

And I love the line: "When one dies, both die; but when one lives, both live." Classic.

"And that's My Two Cents..."

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, July 25, 2003 12:50:31 AM
IP: 142.179.239.74

Well, I finally finished the football game I was working on. I am very happy with the results. One reason I don't watch taped versions of games is that you can't jump here there, or yonder with just a click of a button. You have to fast forward.......and wait......and get through the commercials.....and hope that you remembered where the big moment is in the game......then you find it like 15 minutes later. I was able to set up chapter points on big plays and put in my team's fight songs on the menus. Very nice.....just need to work on the color scheme....some titles don't show up, others look distorted, yadda yadda. All cosmetic changes that I can get to on the next game.

Now, I am considering starting up the Gargoyles again, but still not sure if I want to. I have lots of other things I can do (and just found another thing....The Incredible Hulk tv show). Ahh well, I'm sure all of this is just blowing up everyone's skirt.

Something that is absolutly blowing up mine is the charming, beautiful, and sweet girl that I started dating a couple weeks ago. This comic book, animation fan, and all around computer geek has found love, and the best part....she doesn't mind my nerdy hobbies (course, all this nerd stuff is just sterotype).

DPH>> I have your stuff ready to go, but am having problems burning it to the 90min disc. I'll get it done soon and will send it out ASAP.

Anyone catch the Titans toon on Cartoon Network last weekend? I missed it and was wondering if it was any good.
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Thursday, July 24, 2003 07:42:31 PM
IP: 66.220.76.60

AIRWALKER - Actually, it was Bodhe who wanted the secret meeting, not Macbeth. (And I can't say that I blame Bodhe for not wanting Demona present when he suggested that Macbeth drop his alliance with her - if she *had* been in the same room when he'd said that, it would most likely have been the last thing he ever said.)

Greg Weisman gives his own analysis on the scene which indicates that Macbeth was definitely not even considering selling Demona out:

[A tragedy of bad timing: My sense is that Macbeth is about to read Bodhe the riot act, when Luach interrupts. Mac essentially agrees with Luach, but not with his manner. He takes JUST the wrong moment to teach him a lesson about being a good king. Luach reacts badly and storms out. And it is Luach's behavior that Macbeth is considering when Demona leaves. Two seconds later, I'm quite sure the conversation went like this:

Bodhe: "Well, sire?"

Macbeth: "Well, what?"

Bodhe: "The Gargoyles, sire. You must disavow them!"

Macbeth: "Don't be a fool." etc. ]

(As for Goliath in "Awakening Part Four", the reason why he remembers about Elisa and goes off to meet her instead of spending time with Demona is that he's just seen her destroy an entire airship with lots of people on board - many of whom no doubt didn't even make it out in time - and is appalled at her ruthlessness. And who wouldn't be, either?)

At any rate, I watched my tape of "City of Stone Part Four" this afternoon. Great episode, alongside the other three.

One thing that I find a bit odd (I definitely want to ask Greg about it) is that Canmore invades Scotland only as "the Hunter", not revealing his true identity until he corners Macbeth after defeating his forces and taking his castle. I found myself wondering why he wasn't making use of his identity as "Canmore, son of Duncan, rightful king of Scotland, come back to reclaim my father's throne" earlier in the war; it seems like throwing away a great propaganda advantage.

One other bit that almost amuses me is when Macbeth is telling Canmore that if Canmore will just make peace with him, he promises him forgiveness and mercy - coming at a point when Canmore has all but won the war and so, if anything, it's Canmore who's more in a position to decide whether to grant forgiveness and mercy. It's still generous of Macbeth, though.

One particularly great moment: after Demona casually points out to Macbeth that he can't kill her without dying himself and he replies that he doesn't consider that a problem because he's so tired of life, Demona actually looks frightened for a moment. And who can blame her? I mean, imagine facing somebody who can kill you but who will die himself the moment that he does that, and discovering that he considers that consequence an incentive rather than a deterrent.

There's another bit of "dark humor" in the climax where, when Goliath urges Demona and Macbeth to stop fighting, they do stop fighting each other for a moment - to attack him.

And I still find the scenes where the Weird Sisters and Goliath are speaking to Macbeth and Demona very effective, especially lines such as "Death is never the answer. Life is." and "The access code is 'alone'."

I just wondered what those in the audience who were used to "status quo" situations in animation must have thought about the fact that here, the Xanatos-Demona alliance, which had been in the series ever since "Awakening", breaks up for good. (Although such cases as the gargoyles relocating to the clock tower must have already convinced the audience that this wasn't a "status quo" series.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 24, 2003 06:44:58 PM
IP: 171.75.194.45

TODD - You wrote: [A lot of it, I suspect, comes from the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed the Macbeth flashback]

I was drawn to these episodes at the beginning due to continuing Demona's story more than anything else. I was curious exactly what happened to her after the the events of AWAKENINGS 2. (The Macbeth flashback was good too but his story doesn't really get interesting to me until later; his situation is pretty stable until his father dies.)

You wrote: [I can't help wondering if Maol Chalvim might have tutored his grandson quite a bit and, in the process, taught him to take the stance that he did of assassinating his rivals and other unscrupulous acts.]

Its possible although to be honest to be a king, particularly of Scotland, did require having those skills. Duncan's problem is that he lacked patience, not to mention didn't bother to invest in an effective spy network. He failed to do his research which would have shown him that killing Findlaech was counterproductive.

You wrote: [The other is about Duncan's suspicion]

Is it so unrealistic? If Calvin would educate him then why wouldn't the man educate his other Grandson? Its a logical train of thought.

You wrote: [Or maybe he was hoping that they'd kill each other and save him a lot of trouble.]

I think that was what he really wanted but that he would have been willing to settle for Macbeth winning on the idea that he doesn't know as much and might be easier to deal with than Gillcomgain. The problem again is that Duncan is a stupid man in failing to do his research as well as in his attempts at dealing with the situation. First he put all his faith in Gillcomgain on the idea he would be completely loyal to him and without having any backup prepared so that when he needed to remove Gillcomgain he was forced to turn to Macbeth. Then later on when moving against Macbeth he failed to keep it secret and move quietly on it. I can't even say that emotion blinded him; most of the time he was quite composed. He was just plain dim-witted.

You wrote: [Part Two is the way that it differs from convention.]

Not only did they make an allience but they did it right after Xanatos admitted to having willingly played a part in the whole matter and only a few minutes after Goliath was standing over the crushed human victims of the entire scheme.

You wrote: [Yes, that always bothered me as well.]

It didn't particularly bother me; the Fey are fickle after all. Plus they do tend to disdain mortals in general - it doesn't strike me as silly for them to preach to Humans and Gargoyles a morality that they wouldn't even bother to follow. It seems to me more a comment on Fey nature than anything else.

You wrote: [I have the suspicion that Demona has a general problem with trusting people - at least, trusting the people whom she ought to trust.]

The problem she has is that her experience with dealing and trusting in general hasn't exactly been positive. First she trusts the Archmage who mistreats her. Then she trusts the Captain who really betrays her. At that point she is not trusting anyone freely anymore. She lets Macbeth in only to have that shattered by that secret council he holds in 1057. (Even Goliath from her view in AWAKENINGS 4 betrays her trust - they have just been reunited two hours before and Goliath suddenly decided to publically insult her and then run off to spend time with a Human Female.)

You wrote: [In one of the biggest ironies of the series, the one person whom Demona does trust until he reveals himself in his true colors to her face is Thailog;]

The thing here is that she wasn't really trusting him as Thailog - she was dealing with him as Dark Goliath rather than as his own person. She took all that was left of her love and trust for Goliath and transfered it to Thailog rather than independently coming to love and trust Thailog on his own.

And to be honest after a thousand years alone, it was sort of inevitable that she would end up opening up to someone. Her problem here came down to her major flaw - deeply misjudging people and situations around her.


NICKEROUS - You wrote: [One thing that bothered me is that Demona and Macbeth had been allies for 37 years before Demona thought the worst of him.]

Who says that she really thought that well of him when she made the deal with him? All she really says is that she didn't kill him when he approached her for an allience based on the fact that they had previously fought the Hunter together. She never said that she trusted him at all.

(And its a big comment on Macbeth that he keeps blindly trusting everyone he deals with until they come out and basically tell him to his face that they didn't trust him and were basically moving against him while he was sitting on the throne twiddling his thumbs.)

You wrote: [Demona acts like what she overhears is the first negative thing that Macbeth has ever said towards her or her clan.]

Remember the context of when and where she hears what she heard. Its the middle of a war that is in stalemate; Macbeth isn't exactly winning. Not only that but his proclaimed primary adviser is barred from a meeting on war strategy; In fact he admits in the beginning that he doesn't want her to know about it. And on top of it she basically hears an unchallenged suggestion to sell out her clan to the enemies they had just been fighting an hour before.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:25:33 PM
IP: 12.88.200.222

" At any rate, I think that the Macbeth flashbacks are a major reason why I enjoy "City of Stone" so much, although there's a lot of other good stuff in them as well."
-Yep, Macbeth is my favorite character in the series, so anything that expanded on his backstory was fine by me. CoS was probably my favorite phase of the show. Heavy on drama and tragedy and focused on my two favorite characters. How could you not love it.

Jimmy
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:54:25 PM
IP: 24.136.49.13

I asked Todd to go to the Questions submitted section of ASK GREG to find out how many people have posted their Gathering diaries. The answer: 17 (not including me). That's great in and of itself, and I'd like to thank the following people:

Spacebabie
Revel
kathy
Vashkoda
Carter
Patrick Toman
Karine/Kanthara
Ellen
Mooncat
Allaine
Greg Bishansky
Andrea
John Clemens aka Flanker
Shaun "BrooklynX"
Mandi "Mandolin" Ohlin
Gorebash
Kelly L Creighton

But considering that over 100 people attended this year, that's kind of a pathetic number. So I'm making one final plea -- which I hope you all will pass on to anyone you know who attended -- that you post a G2003 Diary/Journal/Log at ASK GREG before the details of your trip become fuzzy beyond recovery. It would really help me out. Thanks.
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:14:15 PM
IP: 66.81.252.159

Watched my tape of "City of Stone Part Three". One bit that kind of amused me this time around, in an odd sort of way, was Duncan's death-scene. Greg Weisman mentioned once that they came up with the fiery death to provide some variety from the "fall off a cliff" deaths that they'd been doing with other characters (Hakon, the Captain, Findlaech, Gillecomgain, etc.). The funny thing about it, though, is that Duncan, in the middle of his death-throes, falls off a cliff - I guess that old habits are very difficult to break.

When Macbeth spares Canmore's life (I recall the controversy that we had over this one some time ago), he comments "I'll have no more blood on my hands." I wonder if that was intended (for the more Shakespeare-familiar members of the audience) as a little allusion to the "bloody hands" imagery in Shakespeare's play (particularly Lady Macbeth's sleepwalking scene).

Of course, it's interesting in general to see how they reversed the Shakespeare play throughout "City of Stone" - for example, the Weird Sisters' words, instead of motivating Macbeth to move against Duncan as in the play, here motivate Duncan to move against Macbeth.

I still think that it's kind of fun the way that the flashbacks set the record straight against Shakespeare on Macbeth - though since the play's been around for about four hundred years and "Gargoyles" for nine years, I suppose that the play will still have the upper hand. At any rate, I think that the Macbeth flashbacks are a major reason why I enjoy "City of Stone" so much, although there's a lot of other good stuff in them as well.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 06:42:45 PM
IP: 171.75.194.26

Eric> I'll be going to Otakon this year. :) Why do you ask?
Siryn
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 02:41:59 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

From the ASK GREG FAQ

4. Why did Duncan become the Hunter?

Greg's answers:

It gave him a psychological edge against his enemies.

[Later, he adds...] He saw the Hunter's Mask as a useful and necessary tool.
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 01:45:24 PM
IP: 216.179.1.189

About Duncan,why did he decide to become the next Hunter after Gillecomgain? Neither of them cared much for the other and they aren' even related. I still don't what his motivations are for doing that (and it better not be that he thought it was a cool looking mask).
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:47:57 PM
IP: 128.113.64.71

NICKEROUS - I have the suspicion that Demona has a general problem with trusting people - at least, trusting the people whom she ought to trust. (In one of the biggest ironies of the series, the one person whom Demona does trust until he reveals himself in his true colors to her face is Thailog; she never even suspects by the end of "Sanctuary" that he was manipulating her for his own ends - of course, much of that can be credited to the fact that Thailog is very sharp, as in, after slipping Macbeth a blaster that he can use to escape from prison, shouting to Demona, "Didn't you search him?").
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:48:03 AM
IP: 171.75.194.37

Howdy all. Just popping in for a quick post.

City of Stone is one of my favorite story arcs in the entire series. I consider it a sequel to Awakening (in part because I saw the movie version of Awakening and then caught the City of Stone on tv a couple weeks later). The whole story of Demona had me hooked. Macbeth's story as well. One thing that bothered me (this is in part 3, I think), is that Demona and Macbeth had been allies for 37 years before Demona thought the worst of him. I thought that they would have had their differences and even a disagreement or two over those years, but, Demona acts like what she overhears is the first negative thing that Macbeth has ever said towards her or her clan. I don't know...just something that always made me think...
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 07:33:34 AM
IP: 66.220.76.146

Kanthara: I think a fanfic and art contest based on (a) specific theme(s) could be very interesting. I don't know if I'd participate, my stick figures can only go so far and I believe most 4th graders write better than I do. But given a theme that interests me, I believe I would at least purchase the book.

I think I'd be most interested in the history of Gargoyles pre-10th century. Of special interest to me would be of Gargoyles during the height of the Roman Empire. I can see a group of elite guards under Julius Caesar's command comprised entirely of gargoyles. How would they face more harsh emperors such as Nero or Caligula? I think that could be very interesting.

The recent MGC theme of ancient Egypt was also very interesting. I think that could be a pretty interesting theme as well.
eric - [eric@s8.org]
Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:25:06 AM
IP: 151.203.194.226

EVERMORE - Yes, that always bothered me as well. Greg's own explanation about it was that they have some sort of - well, not exactly multiple personality condition, but close to it - representing three aspects: Grace, Fate, and Vengeance. Apparently when they were giving all those speeches about revenge being wrong, Grace was uppermost, and when they were seeking revenge on the Magus and the Avalon clan, vengeance was presumably uppermost.

Actually, there is a certain parallel in Shakespeare, also, where a lot of the great words of wisdom turn out to be spoken by some of Shakespeare's greatest villains. The first time that I read "Othello", what startled me about it was that it contained a number of "famous quotes" of a very moral nature that I'd heard many times - and they're all spoken by Iago!

Maybe the moral is to judge people by their deeds rather than by their words.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:37:09 PM
IP: 171.75.194.231

re: City of Stone
One thing I find most interesting about City of Stone is that during the whole thing the Wierd Sisters are preaching to the clan, Demona, and MacBeth, that vengence begets vengence, and that every life is precious, only to find out later that this was just part of a big century-spanning plan for their own vengence.

Just thought that was interesting.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:05:55 PM
IP: 65.120.101.225

Whoa, I'd have thought that somebody would have posted here in the past 24 hours. I suppose that this will just have to count as a double-post.

Watched my tape of "City of Stone Part Two" today. Nothing new to say about it that I haven't mentioned before on other occasions, but I thought that I'd briefly talk about two matters in it.

1. One thing that I've sometimes wondered is - when Duncan informed Macbeth that it was Gillecomgain who killed Findlaech, what result was he hoping for? That Macbeth would kill Gillecomgain or that Gillecomgain would kill Macbeth? He had reasons for wanting both out of the picture, after all - Macbeth was his leading rival to the throne, while Gillecomgain knew too much and was becoming a much less cooperative ally. (Or maybe he was hoping that they'd kill each other and save him a lot of trouble.)

2. I've said it before, but - the really interesting bit about Goliath and Xanatos making an alliance at the end of Part Two is the way that it differs from convention. Usually when the hero and villain team up, it's the hero's idea, the villain only reluctantly goes along with it, and isn't even that much help since he double-crosses the hero during the alliance or immediately afterwards.

Here, Xanatos proposes the alliance (with his typical Xanatosian practicality of "Do you want vengeance or a solution?"), Goliath reluctantly agrees, and Xanatos carries through without one piece of back-stabbing - in fact, Xanatos is the one who comes up with the means for breaking the spell by using his hypergolic gas packs to make the sky burn. Quite a change of pace from more typical hero-villain conflicts.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 07:09:49 PM
IP: 171.75.195.31

Watched my tape of "City of Stone Part One" today. "City of Stone" is a story that intrigues me - and all the more so because it contains an element that usually turns me off when a television series does it: focusing on the antagonists with the protagonists having a relatively small role in it. A lot of it, I suspect, comes from the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed the Macbeth flashback - it was, in fact, one of my favorite parts of "Gargoyles", and certainly contained a lot of things that I go for (such as the medieval setting).

I still find the scene with Demona in Castle Wyvern after the massacre very dramatic and effective (and also like the bit where they're juxtaposing her turning to stone with Hakon drawing his sword and yelling "Attack!").

A thought about Duncan (actually two thoughts). The first is that his grandfather, whom he was to inherit the throne from, was Maol Chalvim II (whom we, incidentally, saw briefly in "Avalon Part One"). We know from Greg Weisman that Maol Chalvim got the throne by double-crossing and murdering his cousin Kenneth III (who was, in actual history, an ancestor of Gruoch, by the way) - in other words, by usurpation. Given that Duncan was Maol Chalvim's intended successor, I can't help wondering if Maol Chalvim might have tutored his grandson quite a bit and, in the process, taught him to take the stance that he did of assassinating his rivals and other unscrupulous acts.

The other is about Duncan's suspicion (entirely baseless, we know) that Findlaech and Macbeth were plotting against him to make Macbeth king. I think that, when you stop to think it over, it's not so surprising that Duncan was so suspicious about them, in light of one simple reason: if he'd been in their place, he would no doubt have done the same thing. As Elisa commented in "Protection", the corrupt are always the first to believe that others have become corrupt.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:32:39 PM
IP: 67.75.180.73

Eric> <<I was wondering if anyone will be attending Otakon this year?>> I'm 20 minutes from Baltimore. Heck, my apartment is going to be a mini-HOTEL for Otakon that weekend.
Mandolin
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:33:57 PM
IP: 199.173.225.2

Sorry for the repost, guys, but I really need your input on this.

Hi all! I'm coming here with news from the Gathering 2004 staff.

Our website, www.GatheringOfTheGargoyles.com, will be ready at the beginning of August, as well as online registration.

Now, we're thinking of doing something special in terms of contests this year, and I'd like your opinion on the following idea.

We want to do contests for writing and art, by setting a particular theme around which the art and the stories have to be drawn and written. For the writing, we will ask for short stories; for art, it will have to be b&w illustrations. The winning entries will be put together as a book, and a third contest would be for the cover of the book -- a colour illustration would get chosen for that. Now, we're talking about a real, german bound book (like a paperback), in 8 1/2 x 11 format, an anthology of Gargoyles-based stories with an art section, which we would pre-sell to finance the convention. Right now, according to our price research, we'd sell the books for $15.

Would you participate in such a contest? Would you buy such a book? If you have any comments on this, please let me know here, or at the email address below!

Thanks!
Kanthara - [poll@gatheringofthegargoyles.com]
Monday, July 21, 2003 12:59:05 PM
IP: 199.243.180.94

What the heck. Tenth in the name of doooooooooooooooooooom
Gabriel
Monday, July 21, 2003 11:52:11 AM
IP: 68.116.248.99

I was wondering if anyone will be attending Otakon this year?

http://www.otakon.com/
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Monday, July 21, 2003 10:33:33 AM
IP: 192.207.57.32

8th!
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 21, 2003 09:51:34 AM
IP: 12.88.201.168

Seventh
Leo
Monday, July 21, 2003 09:26:00 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Six... in the name of multiples of three and two! ;)
Patrick
Monday, July 21, 2003 07:43:34 AM
IP: 65.43.163.183

5TH in the name of Dean Cain (who is HOT!)

:)
matt
Monday, July 21, 2003 06:34:13 AM
IP: 207.230.48.51

4th in the name of the Fay!

>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, July 21, 2003 03:40:54 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Twee!
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 21, 2003 01:46:33 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Um, numero dos?
ColdFire
Monday, July 21, 2003 12:52:26 AM
IP: 24.87.61.4

#1 in the name of logic
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, July 21, 2003 12:00:44 AM
IP: 204.94.193.76