Comments for the week ending October 6, 2003

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Well, like my spirtiual parent Yinepu says, "There is more stuff out there than you can shake a stick at".

I guess I am not so much surprised, as much as just having wanted to make sure that is what Greg said/meant.

On another note..I think I am surprised at how diverse the people are on this board, and how that, in spite of that, everyone is very polite and open and understanding...I suppose that like the cast of Gargoyles was open and diverse, so too are the people who followed the story. Makes sence.

Anyhow...I know that there have been a lot of posts about Puck, and his role in Gargoyles, I have been researching a lot on him, and also gaining my own personal information. I have, because of that, come to see him in a slightly different light.

Most people who watch the show as well as many characters in the show tend to do a lot of blaming of Puck for what happens. But it is my personal observation that Puck is a mirror for people. Of course, the first ep he was in was The Mirror. Puck shows people what is in them, but he is not bound by that. But I think that people need to be aware that it is they, not Puck who are responcible for a lot of what happens to them while in his presence. People open the door for him, and then it would seem as if he baits them a bit, and then they react, and he baits them again just enough to slightly direct them, but it is they who are giving him the momentum and tools to do what he does...based on what is in them that they are subconciously unaware of.

Considering this possiblillty, I think it is very sad how Golaith blames Puck so viamently for his "disception" in Future Tense.. It is my opinion that Puck may indeed have thrown his own twist on things, but Goliaths own fears and internal phobias are what made that vision appear so real...Goliaths own false beliefs fuled the fire...Puck just lit the match, and flamed it on occasion. At the very least, Goliath must have held these beliefs to some extent, or he would not have been so fooled. After all, it wasn't until Elisa started to behave so oddly that he seemed to really begin to figgure something was horridly off. Golaith seemed to miss this possible little connection with Puck, that Puck was mirroring Goliaths deeply buried fears, and in my opinion, learned nothing. In short, you can't put total blame on Puck, cause he is just working with what is in you. He is a mirror, and to put complete blame on him is to negate the truth of your own error and faults, and to learn nothing. And it is my belief that in all our lives others mirror to us what we are unwilling to see, and just like Puck in Gargoyles, we become angry with them, unwilling to see what it is in us that is the real problem. Again, may not be what Greg meant for people to get out of it, but it is how I see him and other tricksters. Nothing to fear, unless you fear what is in you, and are unwilling to change.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Sunday, October 5, 2003 11:40:54 PM
IP: 64.221.10.159

Shogun Raptor> I'd hate to see what's on HIS hard drive

Never thought of THAT aspect of the situation before!
James Anatidae - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Sunday, October 5, 2003 11:38:39 PM
IP: 206.74.232.140

Siryn>> "And there is the defense you can be of an orientation and still find people opposite to your orientation attractive"

What does "sexual orientation" mean then?

As Hudson would say, why do you humans have to name things, give them limits?
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 10:12:33 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Lex being gay> I got no problem with that, aside from explaining it to Goliath and Hudson, still considering he's tidy, sensitive and has no body hair...oh skip it although I can see him as more of the "mature" homosexual as opposed to the "flaming" type, still I'd hate to see what's on HIS hard drive
Shogun Raptor
Sunday, October 5, 2003 07:27:44 PM
IP: 165.247.69.86

Yow! I certainly hadn't expected to cause this much of a to-do when I alluded to Greg's little revelation about Lexington being gay.

This upcoming week, expect my commentary on the final episodes of the second season of "Gargoyles", from "The Gathering Part Two" (which I hope to watch tonight) to "Hunter's Moon" (I plan to watch all three episodes on Friday evening, since Friday is when the real Hunter's Moon is this year.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, October 5, 2003 06:46:45 PM
IP: 171.75.244.236

Lexington's orientation> well, i am a gay man, a totally gay man and i wouldn't consider myself to be bisexual at all. however, i have dated women before i came out. the reason for this wasn't so much a sexual desire to date women as it was pressure from society to have a girlfriend or whatever. its through dating women that i really began to understand my sexuality more.
so i feel that i have ALOT in common with Lexington. he may never have thought of himself as gay just like i didn't. but when society pressure and the urge to conform moved him to pursue Angela he probably began to realize that he wasn't actually attracted to and was just going after her cuz his brothers were. i think after Turf, Lexington really began to think about his sexuality, and i think Greg has said that before too. i'm surprised that Lex comes to a conclusion about himself by The Journey, it took me a few years to figure it all out!
so, don't be so surprised about lex's orientation because he oogled at a few gargoyle girls and briefly pursued Angela. almost all of the gay people i know dated people of the opposite sex before they came out, its quite common, some of them even had sexual and marriage relationships with the opposite sex before coming out. its all part of the process, i guess.
as for being surprised about Lex being gay, well i was HIGHLY suspicious for years and expected it to eventually be made known, whether through Greg or through the resurrected show.

and non-sexuals are cool too... : )

Boudicaa> i still have trouble spelling her name... i had always hoped when i saw Gathering Pt 1 that she would be left in New York to join the Manhattan Clan. it always seemed to make the most sense that she should get to be with her mate, Bronx... talk about your long-distance relationship!
matt
Sunday, October 5, 2003 06:43:24 PM
IP: 216.178.8.66

Actually, to add to Greg's comment, there was this study done, where it asked homosexuals both male and female if they had had experiences with the opposite sex before realizing their homosexuality.

For men: Only 33%
For women: 58%

^_^

And there is the defense you can be of an orientation and still find people opposite to your orientation attractive.
Siryn
Sunday, October 5, 2003 05:06:46 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

nm Matt, I found the old post you made.
Vash
Sunday, October 5, 2003 02:40:59 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

I'm starting to suspect I may have read about the future Labyrinth clan in the notes Matt and Phil posted from their prize. Matt, could you please confirm this?
Vash
Sunday, October 5, 2003 02:35:14 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Trying to be short, again!
Lord Sloth> Well, the big 2-0 meant something to you, so I hope you have a prosperous twentieth year of life.

Battle Beast> Do 18-yr. drinking age provinces have trouble with drunk kids at their borders with 19-yr. drinking age provinces, or with the States? One of the reasons the drinking age is 21 pretty much everywhere in the U.S. now is because of accidents on the borders of states with different ages. Blood borders, they called them.

Greg> You mentioned people who dated the opposite sex before discovering they were gay. This type of thing confuses me. My confusion is aided by my friendship with a bisexual. I have discovered that bisexuality clarifies a lot of things that the homo/heterosexuality schism muddles.

W/o getting too involved, and with all intentions of being discreet, is this a case of people not being able to go beyond a certain level in their relationships with the opposite sex, which they found they could go beyond with others of the same sex?

Well, for me this was short!
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 11:29:03 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Hey!!

JJ Gregarius> No, 20 is not the Legal age; 18 is the lowest, and 19 is the highest. (Just another reason we're better...)

Gathering 1> I love this episode because it really shows us what kind of man Xanatos really is. We already know that he uses love as a weakness, but we really see it here. He really loves his wife and son, so he will do anything to protect them. Eventually he gets "frozen" (for lack of a better term).

I was wishing that Boudicah would get to meet the New york Gargs at some point, but it didn't happen.

ANd don't you just feel sorry for Halcyon? Poor Halcyon. I mean, just look at his face when he hears that Anastasia has remarried. He's heart broken!

AND, A-N-A-S-T-A-S-I-A can be rearranged in to T-I-T-A-N-I-A (sort of; but they *do* look the similar.)

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, October 5, 2003 02:49:16 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

<<it is suggested to me by "The Mirror." Lex rather enjoyed the flirting 'goyles>>

Keep in mind, Lex didn't realize it himself yet. I myself have known people who are gay who dated the opposite sex before realizing what their true orientation was.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, October 5, 2003 02:47:34 AM
IP: 216.179.1.230

Attack of the typos that steal away meaning! ARRRGH!
"now real..." = "NO real..."

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 02:21:11 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

I tried to make this quick... Sorry.

Lord Sloth> Is 20 the "magic" age in Canada like 21 is in the US?

Lexington> I have a hard time comprehending Lexington as being gay. To me, Lex is either (biologically) heterosexual or bisexual. Oddly enough, this belief is not so much due to "Turf"; rather it is suggested to me by "The Mirror." Lex rather enjoyed the flirting 'goyles.

I had interpreted Lex's withdrawal from courting Angela as an indication that Lex really didn't want romance/sexual relations at the time. Sort of like me. Non-sexual. :-) Maybe with some sexuality yes, but now true, strong urge to actually try to find a partner. One of the great things about the Internet is that I found out that I was not alone.

Non-sexuals of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but the chains of the non-comprehending masses! :-D. Do not feel pressured to be sexual, no matter what the media and American (at least?) culture pushes upon you. Let's all give 'em what they deserve...

:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P
:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P
:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P

(In a mighty chorus) *Pthhhhhhhhbth!!!!!!*

Ahem. :blushing: Back to the rant.

I apologize for being rather defensive about Weisman's declaration of Lex's orientation. I simply feel that many people believe that men who are not into women must be into other men.

However, I have no real reason to believe that Weisman buys into that line of thought.

I hope.

:-/
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 02:14:06 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

No, Greg was quite serious about it. It's something he discovered about Lex while working on the show, so he had that in mind for a long time.

At the time of "Turf", Lex didn't even realize he was gay yet, something he figured out later. I forget, but I think Greg said that by the time of "The Journey" Lex knew.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, October 5, 2003 01:44:24 AM
IP: 216.179.3.70

No, Greg was quite serious about it. It's something he discovered about Lex while working on the show, so he had that in mind for a long time.

At the time of "Turf", Lex didn't even realize he was gay yet, something he figured out later. I forget, but I think Greg said that by the time of "The Journey" Lex knew.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, October 5, 2003 01:44:23 AM
IP: 216.179.3.70

Greg>>> really? Greg Weisman sad Lexington was gay? He never struck me as gay......interesting. I wonder if he always meant him to be, or did that to be a smart alic?

Incidentally I know a lot of people were trying to pin Puck as gay(in the FAQs), partly due to confusion as to what he meant with his statement that he had never taken on the role of straight-man in The Gathering part 2.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Sunday, October 5, 2003 01:15:05 AM
IP: 64.221.8.186

That last post was me.
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, October 5, 2003 01:00:28 AM
IP: 216.179.3.70

<<Oh, just out of curiosity, what revelation about Lexington's "orientation" are you referring to>>

At the Gathering 2003, Greg revealed that Lex is gay. Fun moment for those who were in the room ;)
Anonymous
Sunday, October 5, 2003 01:00:01 AM
IP: 216.179.3.70

CKayote... Nothing you said offended me..actually..I just got through milling through the misc. questions section on ask Greg, and there I may have stumbled onto the answer to my question. Apparently to Greg the dieties of other faiths are not fae, but some were none the less under Oberon. As to the role of the monotheistic faiths and how they related to the Gargoyles universe, according to Greg he viewed the viewpoint of the Abrahamic religion as being a regional concept, and as such, perhaps just one view of the God in the Gargoyles universe.

Again..I have just been trying to understand what place other religions did play in that series...and for the most part, as I have stated..I think they did a pretty good job. The more I learn, the more I approve. I also still think that Greg and others may have wanted to be even more liberal and open in their treatment, but perhaps felt it was just too risky to push the issue any further. In the end, they did do a lot to reveal differing concepts and views, and in a way that few people have.

I have also wondered how, if at all, they would have approached more mainstream religions such as Hinduism. I would think that perhaps that faith, or rather it's dieties, would have been a bit more difficult to place as simply being under Oberon, perhaps why it was left out.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Sunday, October 5, 2003 12:51:51 AM
IP: 64.221.8.186

Oh and welcome to the board Susan!
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 12:40:48 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Sahyinepu: That's just because the followers of religions they do treat as such don't make such a huge colossal stink about it.
But personally, in Gargoyles, I see YHWH as being a fae that physicall inspired what/who would become modern monotheistic God.

That aside, I was very surprised by "Golem". Even at age 10, I realized that anything involving the major religions that way was sort of taboo.

Sahyinepu, I hope my wording doesn't offend you or anything.

Continuing, I would have loved to see them get into Hindu lore; it's so rich and broad in topic.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 5, 2003 12:38:55 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

One bit that I was more uncertain about was the inclusion of such figures as Odin and Anubis among them; as I've mentioned before, I found the notion of Oberon bossing around the gods somewhat jarring at first, because I always thought of faeries (even the faerie king) as ranking below gods. But I've since come to accept it (more or less). >>> Todd
Yeah...this has to have been my only complaint about the series, especially since I follow the religion of Ancient Egypt. But as I stated in an earlier post, all in all, Gargoyles treated the Egyptian religion and in particular Yinepu/Anubis better than anyone else in Hollywood has thus far. :/ I can understand why people do this, but none the less find it a bit sad. To my knowledge, no one holds the copyright on God, and such treatments of non-monotheistic faiths is a bit disheartening. Especially when it happens on a regular basis. And what really surprised me, was they did it to the Native Americans as well. I mean, for the most part, I think people honestly think that the religions of Ancient Egypt and Europe are no longer followed, even though the truth is they are. But Native Americans? Again..this has to be my only gripe. But still, they handled it a lot better than most shows, and I can only immagine the flack they would have recieved if they had actually handled the characters they did include from other faiths as valid dieties in their own right. Incidentally, did Greg ever say if he meant the characters of Anubis and Oden to actually be fae, or just under Oberon? I do vaugly recall him stating in a FAQ that the monotheistic god(s) were not under Oberon, or something to that effect.

Oh, just out of curiosity, what revelation about Lexington's "orientation" are you referring to?
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Saturday, October 4, 2003 11:07:39 PM
IP: 64.221.8.186

Watched my tape of "The Gathering Part One" a little while ago.

Quite a few things in this episode. I recall that one part that really stood out to me was the scene at the beginning with all of Oberon's Children trooping back into the palace on Avalon; I particularly liked the shot of a whole crowd of them carrying torches crossing over the drawbridge, some on foot but at least one on horseback. One bit that I was more uncertain about was the inclusion of such figures as Odin and Anubis among them; as I've mentioned before, I found the notion of Oberon bossing around the gods somewhat jarring at first, because I always thought of faeries (even the faerie king) as ranking below gods. But I've since come to accept it (more or less).

It's kind of fun to spot the "new figures" in the crowd, such as a couple of giants, a centaur, and a pegasus. (Not to mention Nought, who seems to have wound up getting much more attention than the production team had most likely originally intended.)

It's kind of a pity that we never got any continuation of the Banshee's getting a stopper over her mouth. (Oberon shows a bit of black humor in asking her if she has anything to say in her defense while she's trapped motionless in ice.)

Alongside Alex's birth and the return of Petros Xanatos, Halcyon Renard, and Preston Vogel to the series, not to mention Anastasia (who now gets revealed as Titania), we get the big hints about Owen and Puck being the same person. The point where I began to get suspicious was when Owen was clearing out of the Eyrie Building before Oberon showed up, explaining that it was too dangerous for him to be around when Oberon was attacking. Since Oberon had originally come to Manhattan for the purpose of tracking down Puck, it would certainly make sense if Owen and Puck were the same person. (Of course, I'd somehow missed an equally big clue - Owen realizing the significance of Anastasia having remarried her original husband.)

We also get a brief look (in Titania's little flashback sequence) of how Renard looked in his younger days, before he became ill and confined to his wheelchair.

One interesting note about Titania's human alias: I was writing up an entry for Titania on my Guide to the Gargoyles Universe (which I really ought to update one of these days, to include some of the new pieces of information - such as Greg's recent revelation about Lexington's orientation), and only realized in the course of writing about her Anastasia career that we don't know what her maiden name as Anastasia was. I had begun to write "Titania took on the alias of Anastasia Renard" when I realized "No, wait a minute, she wouldn't be Anastasia *Renard* until after she married Halcyon, so what was her surname before that?" and only then realized that we don't know. It's kind of funny that it took me that long to make that discovery.

And we conclude with a really great sequence of the force field going up around the Eyrie Building and Oberon preparing to attack....
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 4, 2003 10:45:11 PM
IP: 171.75.194.70

Susan...welcome and hope you have fun...be sure to check out the ask Greg archives, as it has tons of info that doesn't necessarily appear in the cartoon, all from the creator of Gargoyles.

I personally liked Gargoyles because all of it's characters were well rounded. Even the so called villans, with only a few exceptions, had sides of them that were understandable, if not admirable. Perfect case in point was Demona. For all the cruelty that she did, we at least uderstood why. You couldn't help but feel sorry for her, even if you could not excuse her behavior(and that turmoil that it gives the viewers is what makes any show really good). Only adult tv shows and movies choose to do this, for the most part. But it sin't a typical thing to have done in a cartoon.

Gargoyles was also different for it's fantasy theme, and the amount it pulled both from history and mythology. Most shows don't have cast members that have a standing in their own right, let least cartoons. It was definately a cartoon that was, and is, easy to watch for adults. I still love to watch it and see how much I did not get in an episode that I had already seen. I also am amazed at what others see, that I missed. Most shows just don't have that much going for them..and then there is where it can lead outside of itself...an interest in Shakespeare and other classical myth and litterature. Not to mention all the ethical and moral issues as you brought up. It is a very thought provoking show indeed. Though sometimes I wonder if as adults, we aren't breathing more into it than there was...but then I come over here, and see that others had gotten what I had out of it, and then some, and feel more and more that that is not the case. heh

And personall, I don't think they could have done better than what they did with Elisa. She was very strong as a person and a woman, and yet very believable. She struggled with so much, which made her human to us, and yet she still chose to face her life issues and not run...which is what made her so strong. Even Xanatos took notice.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Saturday, October 4, 2003 08:35:25 PM
IP: 64.221.11.62

Hey guys--does anyone remember the post made by Greg (either here, in a chat, or at 'Ask Greg') where he mentions how cloning and other experimentation may continue to be practiced in the Labyrinth? I've checked everywhere, but my eyes are so strained that I may have overlooked it. Thanks a billion.

Susan> Welcome to the CR. Constance "Eilonway" wrote an article about just that topic at GFW (click my name to go there).
Vashkoda
Saturday, October 4, 2003 06:55:42 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Hi everyone, my name's Susan and I'm a longtime Gargoyle fan, first time poster. I watched 'Gargoyles' back in high school and have been stuck on it ever since. I especially love Elisa, and Goliath of course, but what really drew me to the show was the complexity of the narrative and the moral/ethical arguments within each episode. Finally, Disney Afternoon was showing something intelligent and thought provoking- of course, the humorous anecdotes of 'Aladdin' acted as a great punctuation point to that (pardon the eye-roll), but that's moot.

Question: what does everyone think about Elisa in the line of Disney chicks? She's so opposite the princess-type. Of course, Demona is the ultimate foil; both are so independent, fighters with great loyalty and their share of disillusionment- somehow, both come out as totally rounded out characters compared to the usual "good" and "bad" flat characterisations so common in animation.

Great to see such an active online fan community, and I look forward to many enlightening chats. Rock on.
Susan - [scriptingstar@yahoo.com]
Saturday, October 4, 2003 05:10:52 PM
IP: 129.120.196.15

Future Tense> Actually, when I heard the line Tom says about every hour spent in Avalon equals a day in the real world, I thought that the World Tour would conclude with a reality-warping episode. Future Tense wasn't what I had imagined, but it was along the same lines.

This is one of my favorite single episodes. The animation is superb, the story is gripping, if a little over the top...as soon as Angela died, I remember thinking that Goliath was dreaming....actually, I expected Elisa to die also.

Great episode and in my top 5 fav episodes from the series.

My dvds> As I said earlier this week, I'm taking a break from Gargoyles. I've got Reawakening and Leader of the Pack ready, but have to do Metamorphosis to finish dvd #5. Working on a Super Bowl dvd right now. Sooo many extra feature ideas on it...
Nickerous - [nickerous]
SC, USA
Saturday, October 4, 2003 03:19:44 PM
IP: 66.220.76.100

JJ Greg: I think the fact it looked like Tron is even funnier because it was all cooked up in Puck's imagination.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 4, 2003 02:08:55 PM
IP: 132.170.33.190

****A little whirlwind seems to spring up from the floor. Slowly, it grows until it reaches a size equal to that of a person. The whirlwind then dies down revealing a spinning Blaise. Eventually, Blaise stops spinning, staggers for a bit, shakes his head, and addresses the Room.**** Not too much to say right now, but I did have a few things.

LORD SLOTH> Well, Happy Birthday (belated, yes...sorry, I've been a bit busy).

JJ GREGARIUS> Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Figured I'd help flesh out the two scenes you mentioned. RK Maroon hired Eddie valiant to take pictures of Jessica being "unfaithful" so that (so Maroon said) Roger would stop mooning over her and get his mind back on the work (of course, Maroon blackmailed Jessica into doing it...). The scene of "revalation" took place between Roger, Eddie and Maroon.
As for the other scene you were talking about: when Eddie and Jessica finally meet in Toon Town, and Roger's off with Eddie's car (leaving a trail of destruction), Jessica makes some comment about Roger never being good behind the wheel, prompting this exchange--
EDDIE: "A better lover than a driver, huh?"
JESSICA: "You better believe it, buster."
By the way, did Judge Doom (at the end of the pic) freak you out (I know he got me when I first saw this movie)?

FUTURE TENSE> The first time I saw this I was willing to believe that Goliath and the rest of the skiff folk were transported to an "alternate" future (a sort of quantum reality, if you will) and that somehow they would find their way back to "their own timeline."
Then Bronx got vaporized.
There and then I concluded that this was not for real, and just sat back and, cruel bastard that I am, enjoyed watching every character die in various ways.
Still got surprised when Lex turned out to be the big villain. Didn't see that one coming, but a neat twist.
And then Puck...I just had to laugh out loud. He can be a cruel little bastard too.

GARGOYLE...UH, YEAH> Well, I'm not going too deep into this (besides, most everything's been said already), but there is the fact that they can glide. That may play a part in their "courtship" methods (I think Greg may have implied that it actually does).
That's gotta be one heck of a sensation.

I think I've taken up enough room for now, but you can expect me back eventually. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise starts spinning again, and once more a whirlwind take his place. And it gets bigger. It fills the Room, hurling everything about in its wake. When the wind finally dies down...everything has somehow been set neatly back in its place.****
Blaise
Saturday, October 4, 2003 12:10:22 PM
IP: 209.178.159.145

Unfortunately, I don't think that "Gargoyles" has the same hopes of returning as those other shows. "He-Man", "Transformers", and TMNT were all very well-known during their original runs. "Gargoyles" was more "second-string" in terms of widespread familiarity. The equivalent of those three shows in terms of easy recognition would be - sad to say - "Power Rangers" rather than "Gargoyles".
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 4, 2003 06:50:42 AM
IP: 171.75.194.78

Future Tense>> Wow, did that episode blow me away! All the deaths, so rapidly that I couldn't recover from (or even fully feel) their impact.

I seem to recall sensing that something was definitely off-kilter, but I don't think I realized how off-kilter until the very end.

Also, as I said before, did anyone notice that the "sets" for the in-computer scenes were taken from the movie _Tron_?

Killing characters>>
1) Know your audience. Are they old enough to stomach it? (Then again, some adults had problems with the death of the first chief of the 4077th in the TV series _M*A*S*H_)
2) Be honest about it. I have heard that Peter Laird, one of the creators of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) had said that Splinter would be around for a while. So what did he and his staff do in a recent issue? They had Splinter die!
Truly effective, but...
... truly aggravating due to Laird's statement. Either I heard wrong (which I highly suspect), or Laird committed a sort of sin. Keep your audience in suspense, throw in a few red herrings, but *never* *outright* lie to them, 'lest you want to lose them.
Greg Weisman, if you are reading this, I would like you to make a mental note. I do not like mind games such as Laird's alleged statement. (And that's true whether or not Laird actually said that statement.)

TMNT>> Remember, TMNT started as an underground comic by Laird and Kevin Eastman, not as the property of some entertainment giant as Gargoyles was. This allowed Laird to restart the TMNT franchise with a new comic book. Again, Greg Weisman has no similar option: he cannot just decide to publish a novel or comic book series or what have you and "bootstrap" our beloved universe back to life.
:-(
The other examples seem to be more plausible examples of how that universe could be resurrected, at least to my layman's mind.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 4, 2003 02:40:08 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

On "Future Tense": I knew something was up when Lex turned out to be running everything. I thought they were just in another level of vertual reality.

But in the end, I figured someone would go back in time, but by changing history, they'd set off a whole new chain of events. And then we would have further episodes about the consequences of time travel.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 4, 2003 01:20:26 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Actually, as far as Future Tense killing off nearly all of their major characters....Transformers the movie did that, and they regretted it.

Kids everywhere were in hysterics when Prime died..heh...I remember I all but quit watching the show after that, and only later on watched the eps from season three that followed the movie. I think it is good that they showed their abillity to shed their characters off, but good that it wasn't done for real in Gargoyles. It failed for transformers, at least Generation one. Twenty years later though, and they are still comming out with Transformers cartoons. And they've brought back Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and also He-Man, and are re-running GI Joe. I hope that perhaps Gargoyles will recieve a resurrection of sorts as well.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Saturday, October 4, 2003 01:06:39 AM
IP: 64.221.9.134

I always considerd that Gargs reproduced in the way we'd think. They wouldn't be wearing loincloths if they didn't have something under them. Though it also struck me that the Gargs seemed to wear clothes in order to please their humans.
Clothing aside, I can think of more, but less obvious support for my ideas.

And on Zafiro; I remember reading in the ask greg archives that Zafiro's lower antamony was snakelike in all the ways(including a slit for his <CENSORED>)

On Garg genes: I think the difference between Garg clans is like the difference between breeds of dog. While each is different, they are similar enough interbreed (and thus be considered the same species)

On Garg wars:No matter what Kai says, Gargoyles DO fight Gargoyle (Demona, Thailog, etc.). I can imagine ancient garg clans fighting/warring, but not for the same reasons humans do. "We should have this land beacause we can protect it better" or (in less ancient times- picture cave Demona) "They've allied themselves with the puny HUMANS! If we don't act immediately, they we smash us as we sleep!" But I'm not ruling out more 'human' motivations.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 4, 2003 01:05:46 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Future Tense> no kidding! who DIDN'T die in that episode? every main character except Goliath and Elisa had a death scene and a host of other minor and background characters were mentioned to be killed or presumed dead. poor, poor Goliath, this is worse than 'doom and gloom', this is outright hell on earth. all in all, i'm suprised he held up as well as he did. and i'm surprised he was emotionally and mentally stable enough to figure out Puck's ruse. wonder how everything would've turned out had puck actually acquired the Phoinex Gate...?
matt
Friday, October 3, 2003 11:37:32 PM
IP: 207.230.48.85

That episode was amazing for breaking a lot of the conventional rules in cartoons with most of the central characters killed or already dead. Even though it was an illusion, I doubt any other cartoon would attempt something like that. Makes you wonder what Greg will say about the episode in his ramble...
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Friday, October 3, 2003 10:36:25 PM
IP: 24.195.10.147

Watched my tape of "Future Tense" today. Probably the most alarming episode in all of "Gargoyles", though kind of fun in a perverse way at the same time.

The first time that I saw this episode, I thought that the lightning bolt that struck Goliath at the beginning was some sort of time warp, instead of what we now know it to be: Puck putting that spell on him. (A particularly neat touch is that it comes just after Goliath wishes aloud to see Manhattan again; obviously that remark gave Puck the loophole that he needed to get around Oberon's Law.)

One amusing part of the episode (though I'm not sure if it was intended that way) is when Goliath tells the Xanatos Program, "The real Xanatos, even at his worst, would never have done the things that you've done." And in fact, the way that the Xanatos Program acts in "Future Tense" is far more evocative of the conventional cliched cartoon villain than of Xanatos's style: taking over Manhattan and turning it into his personal dictatorship, plotting to take over the rest of the world from there, forcing the populace into living on the streets in poverty and misery - all behavior that Xanatos would have considered ridiculously melodramatic and unnecessary. (Though it was definitely very Xanatosian to have it parody "Alas, poor Yorick" and use the "bite my knee-caps off" line from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".)

The production team seem to have a little fun with us here as well, in giving Goliath a conventional duel-to-the-death showdown with Xanatos as a faux ending to their war, before bringing about the real ending with a reconciliation and Xanatos letting the gargs move back into the castle (a reconciliation that is begun in the very next episode).

Lexington's cyborg status is particularly appropriate for two reasons. One is his interest in matters mechanical. The other is his feud with the Psck, since Jackal and Hyena are also cyborgs. It seems the classic case of "You become what you hate". (For that matter, if you look closely, you can see an outline around his right eye that looks very much like the outline of Fox's eye-tattoo.)

Puck displays a truly perverse sense of humor in having Brooklyn and Demona being mates. I LOL at Bronx's response to it.

As for the rationale behind Broadway being blind, the best theory about it that I've read (actually, the only theory) is that it was tied in with his learning to read, which now he'll never be able to do. (I think that it also adds some extra poignancy to his "seeing the sun" in his death scene.) Broadway, by the way, made a moving contrast to Brooklyn and Lex; where both of them are bitter towards Goliath for leaving them (Lex, as it turns out, has gone from bitter to straight-out evil), Broadway welcomes Goliath happily with an attitude of "He's back; that's all that matters". Very sweet.

Another example of Puck's twisted sense of humor (and also a great touch): all those Steel Clan robots having Xanatos's goatee added onto them.

So when did you all figure out that the events in "Future Tense" weren't real but just a deception? (I can't remember now when I suspected that; it's even possible that I was genuinely surprised when Puck showed up and revealed it to be an illusion.)

Incidentally, the way that the Xanatos Program was handled allowed another case of an "artificial intelligence going bad" that I could accept; it turns out that the Program wasn't acting on its own, but was controlled by Lexington.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 3, 2003 07:34:36 PM
IP: 171.75.244.153

Hey gang.

The site I have linked has a note about Disney's first quarter releases for 2004. It doesn't cover the whole first quarter, but does list many dvds. Unfortunetly, Gargoyles is not on it.
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Friday, October 3, 2003 11:57:26 AM
IP: 66.220.76.216

JJ Gregarius> "Perhaps gargoyles are rather, um, flexible with their apparatus?"

*snickers* You mean aside from their tails? ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, October 3, 2003 01:27:59 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

JJ Gregarous..I get where you are comming from now moreso... It is interesting thinking though. And as far as ending up in a straightjacket for crossing boundaries of reallity...well, though I understand them to be the product of anothers thoughts and beliefs, it can still get a bit fuzzy. Some see the immagination as a doorway leading out of this world, which is valid. But it can also be seen as a doorway into this world...just look at the play of children, etc, in which they use dolls and the such to explore human social behavior before actually living it out with other humans. So things too can get a bit fuzzy within the realm of even cartoons...which again, in my opinion are as valid as any other form of artistic expression. A prime example were the episodes of Hunters Moon parts two and three which I watched today. In those epidsodes a lot of really deep things were explored...to my knowledge, Gargoyles is the only cartoon that showed the actual use of CPR, and not in just the second part of Hunter's Moon. This is some pretty serious stuff...this ep also got into more depth the conflict of Elisa and Goliath's struggle with their feelings with each other. And of course, the entire three part series dealt with the deeper conflict of vengance and the such...I cannot help but notice a prevaliant theme within Gargoyles, which is the attempt to show that true change cannot be forced, but must be achieved willfully by all persons involved. Demona and other characters never quite came to this realization, while though Goliath and even Xanatose struggled with it, they both eventually came to understand this findamental truth, and made true change. And these lessons are comming through the medium of animation. I ulitmatly find it a shame that so many people have limmited their concept of animaltion to Loony Toons and the such mentallity(not that there is anything wrond with Loony Toons mind you :) )....of meaningless slapstick of which nothing good(meaningful wise) can come out of. Gargoyles broke through that beautifuly, as have a few other catoons of late, in particular hailing from Japan. I know I am rambling a bit..I suppose cause I am still processing all I am thinking of. But in the end..what I mean to say is that the medum something is being expressed is just that...a medium...it is simply art. But because to most people real flesh and blood actors hold more validity than a drawn out character, they fail to see the validity expressed within the guise of animation. Life is life, and art is art. Hopefully one day mainstream America will realize that and appreciate more fully the artistic expressions of such writers as Greg Weisman regardless of their choice of medium...and I hope the Disney corporation does so as well...after all, there is more money in selling cars than there is in selling toys. ;)

Matt...with regards to interclan fighting...what about Demona's desire to eliminate Goliath's clan? When one thinks about it..the gargoyles of today are far from a utopian worldview... but overal, yes, I agree wtih you. I do still find it difficult to ponder them battling it out in the days of old though....it is only through modern technology and medicine that our numbers have become so great as a species... and as far as religion...yes I would have to agree that religion has not always been such a great human creation..some more dangerous than others...in the end, it is about operator error though...wouldn't you agree? :) And by operator error..I am referring to the human operator's end. :)
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Friday, October 3, 2003 01:10:32 AM
IP: 64.221.9.25

Sahyinepu> in your thoughts about territorialism, i generally agree. different animals use different methods of establishing and maintaining territory. many animals use scents, and shows of power (antlers, bright colors, teeth, etc), some animals make a barrier that other animals can't cross (this is esspecially true in the nests and breeding sites of most animals like some birds and beavers), and some animals take a direct approach, attacking intruders, going to war and fighting over territory. its interesting to note that humans do all three of these.
i think in the distant past when gargoyles had colonized the world and were a LOT more common than they are now, there would have been places that had many Clans living in close proximity. there must have been disputes from time to time and perhaps even war(s). its hard to know, but once humans started to become more of a presence and Clans begin to dwindle and be destroyed, inter-Clan fighting would become a non-issue, as it is today. i think its kinda interesting to think that Gargoyles may have been more warlike in the past and it is only the near destruction of their species by humanity that one day leads to all the clans in the world becoming a "Gargoyle Nation".
i don't agree that religion prevents wars. if anything, its the cause of more wars than it prevents...

Garg sexuality> at first i was a little skeptical that Zafiro would have internal sex organs but other male gargs would not, but when you look at the huge variety of gargoyle characteristics world-wide i guess its hard to say that many things are all inclusive. i can only think of a few things that gargoyles world-wide share and they tend to be minor things (like they all have two eyes). their genetics would be fascinating to study.

Jim R> nice to hear from you again, have you been lurking or gone? and yes, i'm a bio major now, i switched from geography major because i obviously have a greater interests in biology.

later
matt
Friday, October 3, 2003 12:22:21 AM
IP: 216.178.8.52

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

<suddently a extreamly jittery looking dude (who looks vaugely like the calm confident ruler of Slothatopia) bursts inside and starts pacing around, half the time remembering to limp because of his injured toe. With a few cookies in his mouth, glancing anciously at Greg's birthday cake with 40 candles, he starts a wee rant>

Ho doggy! Just about 15 minutes left before I turn the big 2-0. I is slightly excited but mostly nervious. I wonder why, I mean it's just the simbolic end of my carefree teenager days. I'm not really going to turn into an adult am I? AM I?? Just like Mr. Wiesman isn't going to do a silly thing and retire on us, right Greg? He still as more stories to tell and I have more Mayham to raise. That's right! I refuse to grow up Da-nap-it! In fact I'm going to Neverland as soon as I'm done this; Third star to the left isn't it.
But then I can't just go and abandon my people, it wouldn't be fair after how far we've come. So I must stay and continue to teach the lessons that Gargoyles has taught me. Alright, FINE. I won't go to neverland then, but it dosn't mean I have to like it. Ok glad I got that out of my system.

Although it's a little late, a very happy belated birthday to the one and only Greg Weisman, Master of the Universe. By the power of Wyvern, YOU HAVE THE POWER!!!!!
I find it a little interesting that you've just turned 40 while a philosopher friend of my dad is just turning 60, and now I'm just about to cross the 20 mark. Oh well, suppose it's only interesting to me, but it feels good to be writing it all down in my old "diary" again.

1 more minute to go. I guess I'll post this now (sorry if there's spelling errors, no time to check) if it's going to be appropreate to the timeline. I'll get back soon on some Garg related stuff, probably not about the animal genitalia though, it a bit beyond me.
Ah look at that 12:00

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth - [spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Kingston, ON, Canada
Friday, October 3, 2003 12:02:23 AM
IP: 216.185.94.104

True Sahyinepu. I cannot deny that toons are fictional (at least not without ending up in a straightjacket!)

I got the sensation, though, that _Bonkers_ either took place in the _Roger_Rabbit_ universe or in one very much like unto it. While _Bonkers_ could not go into such adult themes without a lot of "winking", that hasn't prevented my imagination from extrapolating from both works.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 2, 2003 11:50:04 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

JJ Gregarous, I personally find myself curious about many of the same things. To me it falls under social studies and basic biology...both of which I have no problem with. I do however understand that many people have a hard time with sexual behaviours in our world, and accepting them..let least ponering the proposed sexual encounters of immagined worlds. Or even worlds yet to be explored. With that said, I believe that the same people that would have a hard time accepting interracial marrage, and even same sex relationships, are the same people who, if they woke up in the gargoyle universe tomorrow would have issues with Elisa and Goliath kissing, let least doing anything else. To me, it is as simple as this...the actions of others are between those persons, so long as they are not hurting anyone else, or a minor. At best, it would also be of good advice for each individual to seek the understanding at least of close friends and familly...but as far as society at large, it would be none of their business. It is a matter between the people involved, and at most, their doctor, etc. Just my opinion.

As far as animated characters are concerned...I like to think of cartoons as a simple medium...actors of a sort...only instead of being represented via an actor on a stage or set, they are drawn out, and then voiced by a voice actor. But irregardless, be they a cartoon character, or a character represented souley by a human..they are all representations of someone elses immagination, and unless they are an actual historical person, are fictional. In short..the form that the orriginal writer chooses to express his/her characters is just that... What applies to Roger and Jessica Rabbit may or may not apply to Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Obviously Who Famed Roger Rabbit had some more adult themes that your typical Loony Toones cartoon, etc.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Thursday, October 2, 2003 11:25:41 PM
IP: 64.221.11.98

Jim. for my part of it, I was trying to be nice and scientific. hehe

I agree with what you say about Gargoyles in relation to territory. When the question was asked, I found it a bit hard to fathom, as it seemed to me that there never were enough Gargoyles, based on what was implied in the series, to cause any territorial problems. It was a more what if question. I have always thought of the Gargoyles as being more simmilar to indiginous human societies, in the sence that their way of thinking and interacting with their environment is less complicated compared to modern humans. They have a lot of animal like behaviors, and yet are more intelligent than animals and are more complex in their social interractions and beliefs as far as how society should be. All animal species have social rules though...anyone working at a zoo learns real quick that not respecting the various social rules of differing species can lead to injury or even death. Their degree of complexity though is that makes the difference between the herding behavior of antilope and such and the almost terroristic actions of chimpanzees with regards to how they wage wars against differning tribes largely out of revenge. Most animals reduce the chance of injury within encounters of their own species by the use of symbolic displays. Humans do simmilarly with their own social structures such as politics and law. So it would be only logical that Gargoyles would be somewhere inbetween, and up to the indiviual's imagination. In the end, most species realize the importance of reducing injury by symbolic posturing..that is the purpose of human politics( and in my opinion, religion to a great extent)...to settle differences without resorting to actual physical force...it is all a symbolic dance which the players choose to act out.
Sahyinepu
Houston, Texas
Thursday, October 2, 2003 11:08:47 PM
IP: 64.221.11.98

ERRATA:
It's been a long time since I've seen _Roger_Rabbit_. I now think that Roger learned of Jessica's "unfaithfulness" (I can't tell with toons?) while being interrogated by police detectives after the murder! Right?

Also, does anyone else remember Jessica talking about Roger's abilities in bed? IIRC, it was only one very quick line.
JJ Gregarius
Thursday, October 2, 2003 11:03:15 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

This was supposed to be a quick post. Then, I started to ramble. Sorry, guys, I guess I need to get things off my chest. (And I apologize for my lack of proofreading. I didn't intend to spend the amount of time I did spend on this!)

:nods politely towards Greg:
Happy returns from said birthday. May fortune find you in your 40th year of life.

Sahyinepu>> I hear ya. My comment was mostly directed at myself. I guess the positioning of mammalian genitalia hits a little close to home, ya know? I don't want to look in one sense, but in another I cannot deny my curiosity.

*slightly off-topic*
And, do I sound perverted when I wonder about the effects a Roger Rabbit/Bonkers-esque toon falling deeply in love with a human? This seems so strange; I feel I should explain:

1) I recall a scene in _Roger_Rabbit_ in which Jessica Rabbit admitted that Roger was "good in bed" to Eddie Valiant. The thought of sweet, goofy ol' Roger possibly being a sexual being captured my imagination (after the shock wore off*). It really hammered into my mind the idea that toons were their own "race", with their own concerns and ways of dealing with the world. To humans, toons are aliens.

2)Which leads me to a movie I saw while growing up: _Starman_. It was a story of a widow who fell in love with an incredible alien explorer who had modeled his Earthly guise after a vacation film of her husband. (This was just before camcorders IIRC)The idea of love between truly alien races has been in the back of my mind since then, and Weisman's suggestion that Bonkers/Miranda was a precursor to Goliath/Elisa has reawakened that thread of thought.

You must admit: gargoyles are closer to humans in thought and behavior than toons are!

And I must admit that I'm not sure if Bonkers and Miranda were ever supposed to have any romantic thoughts. Becoming very good friends, I can see, but lovers? Maybe after several seasons.... A new spin on the old cliché, no?

*Yes, in the very beginning of the movie Roger did hire a PI to discover whether Jessica was cheating on him. At the time, it seemed to me that the act of playing "patty-cake" itself was upsetting to Roger. It took many more hints for me to accept that sex between toons (esp. with Roger!) could be possible, and even now I'm not 100% sure that Jessica's comments about Roger's prowess in bed referred to sex! *sigh* I have better things to worry about....
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 2, 2003 10:56:44 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Aye! Some what you'd call "tip toe carefully around it" subjects going on in here. Parental advisory required. ;)

Matt: <<gargoyles have always seemed to be a species that is territorial in some senses, not neccesarily violently, but they certaintly define what territory belongs to a certain Clan and defend it acordingly. i was considering asking Greg whether there was ever a time in the distant past (when gargoyles were widespread and the nearest Clan wasn't thousand of miles away, but only "over those hills" or whatnot) that Clans would actually go to war with each other over territory (resources, hunting grounds, etc). i know its hard to imagine gargoyle clans fighting each other, but remember how protective they are... i dunno, would love to hear opinions on this!>>

I like to look at this from the cultural anthropological perspective. In terms of some human cultures, before agriculture, there were foragers and various horticulture, particularly in Africa. Tribes and groups would claim use rights over land and waters, but not ownership. I think this can describe some gargoyle clans that abide by this methodology too. But like early Europeans did, some gargoyles may see the land as territorial and aim to claim it, basically property.

BTW, are you a bio major now?

DVD: I'm certainly looking forward to it. I hope it's released sometime in the first quarter of 2004. Forgive me if this has already been answered.

DPH: <<I claim the spot given by the square of the sum of all even prime numbers plus one half of the product of all even prime numbers.>>
And I claim 38+1. Yeah! ;)
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Thursday, October 2, 2003 10:27:08 PM
IP: 65.41.58.149

JJ Gregarius... I used to trap birds as a child, and examine their wings and toe arrangement... I made no invasive observations..I was about six or so, and so didn't understand too much about internal anatomy, but nonetheless noticed the simmilarities of bones on humans and animals, etc. I made observations as to the arrangement of toes, and the types of beaks, and how they were used to ade the bird in its environment and feeding....noted where elbow in an animal was relitave to a human, but noted the different functions, etc. An example is that in the back leg of a horse, the "knee" is actually our heel, but has the function simmilar to a knee in us, as that horses actually are standing on a single toe. So it was only natural for me to make simmilar observations as I grew older with regards to internal organs, etc., including sexual reproduction. For the most part, this does not require direct examination, but often observation is sufficient. :) You can also learn quite a lot on animal behavior by watching animal planet and Nat Geo channel. To me, the study of differences and simmilarities between different species and how those differences ade animals in their environment has always been very facinating.
Sahyinepu
Houston, Texas
Thursday, October 2, 2003 10:18:10 PM
IP: 64.221.11.98

Welcome back, Greg! We're glad that you enjoyed your birthday wishes.

Watched my tape of "Ill Met By Moonlight" today. There were definitely a lot of Shakespeare references in the episode. First, Oberon, Titania, and the Weird Sisters. Then, there's the title (the words "ill met by moonlight" are what Oberon says to Titania when they first meet each other in "A Midsummer Night's Dream"). Then there's Ophelia's name. Plus Goliath says "All's well that ends well" at the end, and Oberon says as he prepares to hunt down Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel "The game is afoot", although I'm not sure whether that last one counts. (The phrase shows up in Shakespeare - particularly in the "Once more unto the breach" speech in "Henry V" - but it's better known for being used by Sherlock Holmes, who says it in a famous scene at the beginning of "The Adventure of the Abbey Grange". It's a genuine Holmes quote, incidentally, as opposed to "Elementary, my dear Watson", which never turns up in any of the original Sherlock Holmes stories by Arthur Conan Doyle - but I digress.)

It's appropriate that the iron weapon they use against Oberon is a bell; in traditional faerie-legends, the faerie-folk didn't like bells any more than they liked iron. So an iron bell would be giving Oberon a double whammy.

When the Weird Sisters look at each other satisfiedly at the point when Oberon is making the Avalon clan sink into the ground, they somehow remind me of a "class sneak" who's just gotten one of his classmates sent to the principal's office.

Speaking of the Weird Sisters, the scene at the end where they're looking at each other acquired a new meaning for me this time around. Selene looks about to speak (presumably to express her displeasure about the fact that it's going to be all the more difficult to get rid of the Avalon clan now that Oberon's actually made them his honor guard), but Luna holds up her hand as if to tell Selene not to speak. What I realized this time around was the significance of it due to the "symbolism" of the different sisters. According to Greg Weisman, Selene (the dark-haired sister) represents the Sisters' vengeful/Furies side, and Luna (the silver-haired sister) represents their "Fates" aspect. So their roles become all the more appropriate, with the one who represents vengeance being about to protest, and the one who represents fate or destiny staying her - as if to indicate that there is something lying ahead on the path of fate that can be used to deal with the Avalon clan. (Pity that we'll probably never know now what that is - although I'd speculated once that the Sisters might have had something to do with the freeing of Queen Mab.)

Probably the funniest moment in the episode: Titania explains about how on Avalon, Oberon's word is law.

KATHARINE: Does that mean he's always right?

TITANIA: Not while he's married.

Since I only saw this episode after I'd seen both "The Gathering" and "Walkabout", I immediately got the significance of Titania's mention of helping Goliath as a means of "repaying an old favor". I wonder how many first-time viewers who'd only seen "Walkabout" picked up the significance (it helped that both Anastasia and Titania were voiced by Kate Mulgrew).

Only 10 episodes to go....
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 2, 2003 07:05:06 PM
IP: 171.75.194.77

Hey gang,

I'd have responded sooner, but I've been travelling.

I'd just like to thank everyone who wished me a happy birthday, both here and on the card that Tim, Christine and Noel prepared for me over at Christine's site.

It really is appreciated. So far, being 40 has been just great. And it helps to have so many friends and well-wishers scattered across the globe.

Again, thank you all.
Greg Weisman
Thursday, October 2, 2003 05:20:05 PM
IP: 66.81.246.162

I kinda feel awkward at looking at animals' genitalia.
:/
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 2, 2003 04:25:13 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Zafiro would keep it the same place most all animals keep their male sex organ...inside themselves till they are ready to use it. Even most mammals do not have exposed phallic organs, but rather "drop" them when ready to breed. They have sheaths, which keep them protected, as they do not wear clothing...primates are the only example I can think of that doesn't fit this rule. Whales, Dolphins and other sea mammals are of an even better example, as far as having everything inside. You must think of the function and life lived of the animal in question..I believe that most other gargoyles would be like us(and other primates) though.

I guess I really must be the only person to have picked up hapless wildlife as well as pets and examined them as a child and the such....

I think you people are complicating things way to much on this matter.

As to Mr. Xanatos being a typical villan...when you really think about it, if he were a real terd, he would have at least tried to talk Owen Burnett into going to prison for him, and taking the fall for his crimes. Of Course, Owen may not have survived the experience so well, as he is kinda "pretty" and would have been popular in prison...if you go with the real life slant that Gargoyles was more leaning to. Which also begs the question,,,,did Mr. Xanatos go to one of those prisons with the golf courses and such, or what? All in all Mr. Xanatos was not that bad...misguided, and greedy, but not that bad. Prodeus..now he is really scary...even Demona can be pardoned in the sence that she suffered so, and one could only assume that for her to come to terms with what she had done would have either driven her insane or to suicide...but Prodeus...he was just an... well, a prick. In short...I never found it easy to see the "villans" in Gargoyles as such...no one was that black and white, except Prodeus. He seemed more like a psychotic serial killer, which is as bad as they come.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Thursday, October 2, 2003 04:03:22 PM
IP: 64.221.12.184

Moon Cat> yes, I have heard the announcement about the Gargoyles dvd coming next year, but until I see specs/cover art I'm expecting another "it'll be released next year" from Disney.

That's a very good suggestion about Christmas and Birthday gifts. I think I'll do the same. :)

The very reason you are holding off on making covers for your discs is the very reason I've stopped making mine right now (plus, I think I'm getting burned out of Gargoyles....been through the whole series twice since last Nov.) Maybe I'll get back to Gargoyles in a month or so....
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Thursday, October 2, 2003 02:55:29 PM
IP: 66.220.76.55

I thought that males of species with internal fertilization, such as reptiles, birds, mammals, and so on, had to have some sort of fertilizing device with which to deliver genetic material into the female's apparatus. How else would internal fertilization work?

In fact, I've heard the Croc Hunter talk about male 'gators having such a device inside when he paid a visit to Jay Leno. I admit, though, I have *no* idea how birds do it. :?

Then again, you're the bio major, Matt, not me. ;-) Am I making sense?

This is a touchy subject for public discussion, isn't it? I have thoughts of some 9-year old who, having discovered Gargoyles on Toon Disney, did a web search and somehow stumbling onto this site. But, this is a public site, isn't it? Shouldn't her parents be paying more attention?

*sigh* What can you do? Still, I think this may be better than discussing whether a toon could be romantically attached to a human, and how far such a relationship could go. Yes, I am thinking of Bonkers and Miranda Wright, whom Weisman has admitted served as direct predecessors to Goliath and Elisa. Heck, I now recall that Bonkers already felt rather deeply for a female toon; things could have gotten rather interesting....
However, when I consider that many parents let their children watch _Tootsie_ (or so I've heard), or _Who_Framed_Roger_Rabbit?_ for that matter, I believe I may worry too much. Such topics are discussable, albeit rather odd.

Wow, have I digressed!

P.S. Somehow I'm not sure whether Bonkers and Miranda were ever supposed to be more than partners. I'm just having trouble decipher Weisman.
P.P.S. Then again, the odd couple did seem fond of each other IIRC.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 2, 2003 11:32:15 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

what i am curious to know is if Zafiro does have a penis, where does he keep it?

*giggles despite himself* : )
matt
Thursday, October 2, 2003 10:59:42 AM
IP: 207.230.48.103

Well, Greg Weisman did say that a gargoyle and a women could given each other "pleasure" (presumably erotic pleasure from the context).

Perhaps gargoyles are rather, um, flexible with their apparatus? I believe I shall refrain from exploring this further, in public that is.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 11:47:41 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Was skimming through the comments and realized I'd missed Matt's question about sex and gargoyles...

I don't think Gargoyles are restricted to having sex like birds. All but the one (Zafiro) have arms as well as wings, plus prehensile tails. No reason to think they don't have a great *variety* of ways of having sex. I think someone mentioned Zafiro has the double blessing of snake anatomy, but I don't remember if Greg confirmed it or not.

>^,,^<
Mooncat
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 11:28:56 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Nick - [Maybe....just maybe...Disney will jump on the band wagon and release the first 2 seasons of Gargoyles.] -- You have heard Gargoyles will be out on DVD, which was announced over a year ago at 2002's Gathering? Whether Gargoyles will be put out on full season sets will probably depend on how well the first DVD sells. Bandwagon or no, if sales suck we probably won't see the full series released. I plan to buy as many copies as possible and use them as my X-mas and B-day gifts for people that whole year. Hopefully I'll addict new fans *^_^*

I really should make covers for my own Gargoyles DVDs, but knowing that there will be commercial ones coming out makes me hesitent to waste the extra time and effort. I just stick mine in a small soft side CD holder/case for travel.

I plan to do a marathon watching of the series soon as I get the house all tidy. It will be my special treat to myself.

... back to the cleaning...
Mooncat


>^,,^<
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 11:19:42 PM
IP: 68.102.0.23

Watched my tape of "Cloud Fathers" this afternoon. We see the last Coyote robot to date in the series (and the only one who doesn't team up with the Pack and get hit on by Hyena), get Coyote the Trickster introduced, and have Peter and Beth Maza meet the gargoyles. Plus Xanatos returning, and being Xanatos as ever. (That scene where he comments "It's my first real stab at cliched villainy. So how am I doing?" is definitely true to his character.)

I thought that Peter Maza had a very good voice. (I also found myself wondering again how many people, the first time they saw this ep, were surprised at the end about his father being dead.)

I still get a chuckle out of Coyote the Trickster threatening to sue Xanatos for trademark infringement. (They did have a lot of fun with the trickster and Xanatos's robot having the same name.)

When I saw the scene where Coyote momentarily distracts the Mazas and disappears while their backs are turned, I found myself suddenly reminded of a legend about how, in order to keep a leprechaun prisoner, you have to keep your eye on it every single moment, and that if you turn away from it even for a moment, it'll disappear. I wonder if there was a similar concept being used to Coyote (after all, they included the vulnerability to iron element which also comes from European folklore). Incidentally, I also wonder, when Xanatos describes Coyote 4.0 holding the trickster prisoner as "Ironic", if that wasn't intended in part as a bad pun.

Speaking of which, I recently wondered if there might not have been some influence here from "Camelot 3000", a DC graphic novel about King Arthur returning in the year 3000 to save the world from an alien invasion stirred up by Morgan le Fay and Mordred. Greg mentioned working at DC Comics at the time that "Camelot 3000" was made, and there's a striking parallel to the bit about Xanatos turning the Cauldron of Life into Coyote 4.0. In one part of "Camelot 3000", Mordred gets his hands on the Holy Grail and turns it into or unites it with a suit of armor that utilizes the Grail's healing properties to make him invulnerable. And the Grail is often linked to stories about magical cauldrons such as the Cauldron of Life....

One thing I still find myself wondering: given what Xanatos thinks of revenge, why would he have Coyote 4.0 "programmed for vengeance"?

At any rate, a fun story and the last real clash between Goliath and Xanatos in the series ("Future Tense" doesn't count). Xanatos indicates again what an unorthodox antagonist he is when he actually tells Goliath that he has no real wish to kill him (he's just doing it because he has to genuinely threaten the soil carving to draw Coyote out; merely going through the motions of doing so won't work) and no grudge against. That's a far cry from the attitude that "cartoon villains" usually take towards the hero. Xanatos is definitely one of a kind.

MATT - Interesting question. We know that, officially, "gargoyle must not fight gargoyle" (as Kai put it in "Bushido"). And even aside from that, gargoyle clans dwell so far apart these days that territorial friction isn't likely any more. But back then, I'm not so sure. While gargoyles do have a strong sense of loyalty to each other as all part of the same race, they do have fierce tempers, and some sort of fighting wouldn't be impossible. But Greg Weisman most likely knows the answer better than I do. (Pity that he seems to be away this week.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 07:19:43 PM
IP: 171.75.195.109

Hey Gargs and Goyles

MGC & AMGC have both been updated
MGC
Contest for October: Urban Legends & Ghost Stories
Voting has begun on: Pirate Gargoyles

AMGC
Contest for October: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Voting has begun on: Yuri/Yaoi Gargoyles

As for Avalon Mists,
please send in anything you're interested in contributing. The magazine can't be anything without the fans. :) Deadline is October 15th (however I'll take late submissions if you contact me first and let me know! <:))

Also, we're looking for staff members? Responsibilties for being a staff member is you have to come up with at least one article for every issue (which is every three months). It can be really almost anything within the PG-13 range though.

Trying to broaden the magazine's concept and make it more like an actual online Zine, so please feel free to contribute!

That's all for now!
Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 01:14:17 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

i guess no one wanted to talk about sex... : )

theres something else i've been thinking about lately and i am considering asking Greg about it, but i wanted to get the opinion of people here first.
gargoyles have always seemed to be a species that is territorial in some senses, not neccesarily violently, but they certaintly define what territory belongs to a certain Clan and defend it acordingly. i was considering asking Greg whether there was ever a time in the distant past (when gargoyles were widespread and the nearest Clan wasn't thousand of miles away, but only "over those hills" or whatnot) that Clans would actually go to war with each other over territory (resources, hunting grounds, etc). i know its hard to imagine gargoyle clans fighting each other, but remember how protective they are... i dunno, would love to hear opinions on this!
matt
Wednesday, October 1, 2003 11:30:32 AM
IP: 207.230.48.133

Watched my tape of "Bushido" this afternoon. This episode is important, in a way, in how it portrays the harmonious relations between humans and gargoyles in Ishimura. I think that it was a good idea to show such a thing, to provide further evidence (alongside Elisa, the reformation of Princess Katharine and the Magus, etc.) that peace between humans and gargoyles is possible.

Greg Weisman once said that "Bushido" was intended as a sort of modern-day reflection of Demona and the Captain of the Guard's betrayal of Castle Wyvern in 994, with Yama in the Demona role and Taro as a parallel to the Captain and Hakon combined, and I do see that in use. I also see it, however, as a parallel to Xanatos's scheme with Taro in the Xanatos role. (In fact, Taro's really a better parallel to Xanatos than he is to the Captain or Hakon, since he had the same purpose for the gargoyles that Xanatos had: exploitation rather than destruction.) The bit about the gargs initially thinking that somebody moved their temple with them on it during the day (but then learning that it's only Taro's replica of the temple) might even have been intended as a contrast to Xanatos moving Castle Wyvern from Scotland to New York (although we'll have to wait until Greg rambles on this episode to find out for certain).

Yama comes off better than Demona here, in some ways, for two reasons. The first is that his goal was not to destroy the humans, but to find some way of establishing peace with them outside of Ishimura. (And the notion of gradually revealing themselves to the world does make some sense; the drawback of remaining secret, as Goliath had done, is that it could lead to your being exposed by somebody else under unfavorable circumstances, which was what happened to the clan in "Hunter's Moon". Having the gargoyles revealed as teachers of bushido would be better for them than having them revealed as the people accused of blowing up a police station.) Also, when Taro's real scheme is revealed, Yama, instead of running away and abandoning the rest of the gargoyles, stays to battle Taro and defeat him in single combat. (Which makes his role in "Bad Guys" as one of a group of reforming ex-antagonists feasible.)

Taro seemed almost a poor man's Xanatos in some ways (Xanatos might be defeated, but he was always defeated with dignity; I can't imagine him winding up dangling from a giant animatronic gargoyle in front of a crowd of reporters or shouting at it as it prepares to launch its speech, "Not now!"); I recall in particular a remark here once that bringing the reporters at dawn, when the gargoyles would be turning to stone rather than breaking free from their stone shell, was certainly questionable tactics. On the other hand, he still gets some fun lines such as "Hey, nobody ever got rich off bushido!" or, when Yama announces that bushido demands that he face Taro alone, "Bushido is not kind to you, Yama."

One nit: in one scene, Yama pulls on a little gargoyle head at his podium, but nothing happens.

The funniest moment for me is when Elisa tells Goliath about how a whole bunch of reporters is out there ready to make him and the other gargs into television stars, and Goliath cries out horrifiedly "No!"

And Elisa wears a kimono for a change instead of the usual red jacket, black shirt, and blue jeans. :)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 30, 2003 07:08:46 PM
IP: 171.75.194.110

Well tomorrow I'm off to buy Bionicle: Mask of Light *hooray!* and I'm even more glad that Mr. Weisman was a part of it because now I know it's going to be good *It's the best thing Lego has done in a long time:) and it's got THE Scott McNeil! My favouritest voice actor... next to that guy who did the voice of Vegeta in Dragonball Z and Zex from Gundam Wing.*

I guess it's kinda funny that it's caught the eye of a Christian website. Well Gargoyles peed Christians off so this mean Bioncle is gonna be just as good logically :P

Oh yes and happy belated birthday Mr. Weisman sir :)
silverbolt
EnglandTuesday, September 30, 2003 04:40:19 PM
IP: 81.131.197.214

Howdy folks. I just finished Leader of the Pack for dvd and something struck me while I was watching it. Fox is granted an early parole for not escaping with the others and for saving the guard's life. I was thinking that the guard might have been placed there by Xanatos to make sure that there would be a life to save for Fox. Ahh, maybe I've been on conspiracy theories too much...

DVD> Like I said, just finished LoTP for dvd 5. Reawakening will be finished tonight and I'll be ready to make the dvd tomorrow night. Don't know if anyone has heard this (or cares) but, I've noticed more and more dvd season sets for animated series. Just picked up Beast Wars season 1, saw an ad for X-men Evolution season 1, and am hearing rumors about Batman: The Animated series season sets. Maybe....just maybe...Disney will jump on the band wagon and release the first 2 seasons of Gargoyles.
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:41:39 PM
IP: 66.220.76.86

Todd> " In "The Green", Elisa's shirt has short sleeves, but in "Sentinel", it has long sleeves."
she may have had it rolled up in "The Green". it looks like its t-shirt material and when you roll up black t-shirt sleeves they are not as easy to see, esspecially in animation. thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

speaking of clothing and "The Green". i often wonder if the animators gave Zafiro armor because he would've been naked without it. i want to stay pg-rated, but looking at Zafiro makes me wonder how different Gargoyle sex might be than Human sex. i don't know how many of you know about bird reproduction, but the more i think about the more i wonder if Gargoyle reproduction is more similiar to birds than mammals. from what we (havn't) seen of Zafiro and the fact that gargs lay eggs, we have some evidence in that direction.
does anyone know what Greg has said on the subject?
matt
Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:52:29 AM
IP: 207.230.48.114

Err... "alpeh" = "aleph"

King of Error
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 29, 2003 09:28:48 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

DPH>> Ah, *even* primes!
*smacks forehead*
I thought you were claiming alpeh-null or something...
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 29, 2003 09:26:11 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

DPH> You needed parentheses. It wasn't even clear what you were squaring...
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, September 29, 2003 07:53:38 PM
IP: 66.67.201.63

JJ Gregarius - <So, 5 is no longer a real number, eh? > Wait a minute. Since two is the only prime number that is even, the sum (and product) of all the even prime numbers is 2. So square of the sum of all the even prime numbers is 4. Now one half of the product of all even prime numbers happens to be 1. 4+1=5, hence I claimed spot #5, rather indirectly.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, September 29, 2003 07:16:11 PM
IP: 204.94.193.31

Sorry for the double post, but I remembered something else about "Sentinel". There's an amusing little animation inconsistency between it and "The Green" (the episode just before it). In "The Green", Elisa's shirt has short sleeves, but in "Sentinel", it has long sleeves.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 29, 2003 06:50:36 PM
IP: 171.75.195.118

Watched my tape of "Sentinel" this afternoon. One of the big things that I recall about it from the first time that I watched it was that I was a little disappointed that it was about Easter Island and Von Daniken-style ancient astronauts. The reason for this was that when I saw the two archaeologists from "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" in the "Previously On" section, I had a wild hope that we would be seeing something of King Arthur and Griff's quest for Merlin, because of their (the archaeologists') discovery of the Scrolls of Merlin. Instead, it turned out that the archaeologists' role in the story had nothing to do with Arthuriana, although we still got this nice little exchange:

ELISA: It's got everything in it except King Arthur and the Holy Grail.

GOLIATH: Yes, well, we haven't encountered the Holy Grail yet.

I sometimes wonder if Greg Weisman wishes that he had handled the episode's script a little better, in light of how Nokkar's misinterpretation of the gargoyles has led to so many fans similarly misinterpreting things to believe that gargoyles are aliens. (That's clearly something for the "fan myths" section, alongside the belief that Castle Wyvern was in a part of Scotland called Ussex and that Gabriel and Angela were romantically involved.)

If you look closely, you can see a few small multi-legged robots scurrying about on board Nokkar's spaceship. I don't know what their function was, but I thought that they were neat.

Of course, the really great thing about this episode is that it shows just how loyal Elisa is to the gargoyles; even when she's had her memories stripped of them and has been given reasonable grounds for belief that they're really working for the Space-Spawn, she still winds up protecting them. I think that it's a particularly fortunate aspect of "Gargoyles" that one of its regulars was a human who was such a close and faithful friend to the gargs. That did more than anything else to counter all of Demona's angry ravings about the corruption of the human race.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 29, 2003 06:48:49 PM
IP: 171.75.195.118

Uhmmm, I missed the top ten :(

Bah, oh well.

Happy birthday, Greg! Read some Proust to celebrate! :)
Gabriel
Monday, September 29, 2003 12:52:03 PM
IP: 129.120.86.34

Err... anything 5 or greater....
(see below)
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 29, 2003 09:51:12 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

DPH>> So, 5 is no longer a real number, eh?
I'll have to remember that for my math test tomorrow!
:jots it down:
Errr... if 5 is greater than any real number, and 6 is greater than 5, then 6 isn't real either.... nor is 7, or 8, ....
So basically, if I get anything greater than 4 on a test problem, it's wrong.
Hmmmm. Interesting!
This must be what tiger mathematics is like (Calvin and Hobbes, anyone?)
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 29, 2003 09:49:05 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Evermore got it right.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 29, 2003 08:59:17 AM
IP: 171.75.244.136

#10 or so I suppose, and I believe Michaelmas was mentioned in "Avalon" Part 1.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Monday, September 29, 2003 07:57:57 AM
IP: 65.120.100.76

10th.
Leo
Monday, September 29, 2003 07:55:47 AM
IP: 172.128.47.53

9th.

Happy Michaelmas, everybody! (How many people here can name the episode of "Gargoyles" that Michaelmas was mentioned in?)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 29, 2003 07:30:30 AM
IP: 171.75.194.82

*yawns*

8th in the name of procrastination...
matt
Monday, September 29, 2003 06:17:29 AM
IP: 207.230.48.11

Lucky 7 in the name of the Fay!

mc
Mooncat
Monday, September 29, 2003 01:55:54 AM
IP: 68.102.0.23

6
Jimmy
Monday, September 29, 2003 01:51:13 AM
IP: 199.74.79.167

I claim the spot given by the square of the sum of all even prime numbers plus one half of the product of all even prime numbers.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, September 29, 2003 01:27:27 AM
IP: 204.94.193.14

FOUR!

*hits golf ball*
Lynati
Monday, September 29, 2003 12:56:03 AM
IP: 65.69.64.189

Third
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 29, 2003 12:52:42 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

SECOND!!
Siryn
Monday, September 29, 2003 12:25:30 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

First!
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, September 29, 2003 12:09:10 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63