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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 13, 2003

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Plants a flag.
Leo
Sunday, October 12, 2003 11:59:56 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Plants a flag.
Leo
Sunday, October 12, 2003 11:59:48 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Sheltie- thanks for the tip! I still marvel at how wickedly bad that ep was, probably because this is the first time I'm seeing 'Goliath Chronicles'.

Although, I did thoroughly enjoy watching the reruns of 'Awakening' this past five nights- I especially loved Hudson's comments on naming things, and humans putting boundaries on things by doing so. I also enjoyed Elisa's comment that "now the enemies are from within" when Goliath asked about walls guarding the city. How apropo for the whole theme of the show. It also amazed me how quickly Elisa befriended Goliath, since she's the loner Detective who "trusts no one". Probably in part to due with him saving her life...but I wonder what else really drove her to befriend him and the gargoyles so quickly.

Susan - [scriptingstar@yahoo.com]
Sunday, October 12, 2003 08:58:14 PM
IP: 172.145.238.108

Tonight, Masterpiece Theatre (at least on my local PBS station) is showing "The Warrior Queen", which is all about Boudicca (the person after whom the gargoyle beast on Avalon was named). I just thought that you might be interested; I'm looking forward to it myself.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, October 12, 2003 06:45:16 PM
IP: 171.75.194.10

Oops, sorry! That should've said "Possession".
And I'm usually such a perfectionist with these things too -that's what i get for typing when i'm tired.

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Sunday, October 12, 2003 05:30:13 PM
IP: 213.122.3.28

I'm sooo jealous of you guys - I've never yet seen Vendettas, the Reckoning, Possessin or the HM eps. Toon Disney UK leaves a lot to be desired.

Jimmy> "Naming objects isn't really that wierd" - it's also common for musicians to name their instruments, at least i know it's kind of traditional amongst cellists. Unfortunately mine's currently nameless, since it's not technically mine - a loan from my instructor. Just gotta keep saving...

Susan> That ep was called Seeing isn't believing. I think I read that the animation flaws were due to the job being passed on to another studio who hadn't yet worked on the series. Have a look at the episode reviews on The Gargoyles Fan Website - I think that might be where i saw it.

JJ Gregarius> "English is weird" - I agree. My languages lecturer last year reckoned that it would be easier for those learning english as a second language to learn Scots Standard English, and I can see her point. There's far fewer rules in SSE when it comes to spelling & grammar.

Night All!

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Sunday, October 12, 2003 05:22:52 PM
IP: 213.122.3.28

Yeah, it sure is...

Actually, as you might've figuered out yet, I live in germany, but I spiak english real good! LOL

No, just kidding... When I write toooo fast (and I did) I usually add typos or use words I mixed up with others... doesn't happen when I speak... Lucky me! ;D

Yeah, sure Gargoyles was allways something different. But Hunters Moon was IMHO a turning point! Different then Awakenings. It had themes never EVER before handeled in usual Disney/animation series. Actually, from a far point of view, Gargoyles was one of the first Western Animé/Manga series!

And with Hunters moon... it all became it's own world! Got it's own mind, rules, like Greg allways intended that he didn't evolve his figures at all, THEY do THEMSELVES!!!

And that happenned with Gargoyles... It's sad that Disney cut it out...

However, there's still something called future... ;D

The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Sunday, October 12, 2003 03:43:19 PM
IP: 217.87.15.253

Addendum: The apostrophe is used sometimes to form abbreviations (e.g. _gov't_ = _GOVernmenT_, _nat'l_ = _NATionaL_). The weird thing is, no one *says* constructions like _gov't_ out loud. We say _government_.
Would _gov't_ be pronounced _gov-vet_? _Govt_??

English is weird. :-(
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 12, 2003 02:15:39 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Coma-man, I'm not sure if you're a native speaker of English or not, so I feel I should point something out as an educational service. In English, the apostrophe (') is only used in contractions (_don't_ = _DO_NoT_, _let's_ = _LET_uS_, _I'm_ = _I_aM_, _it's_ = _IT_iS_, etc.) and the possessive case of *nouns*. For example, say _the_dog's_bone_, _the_gargoyles'_fath_, _JJ_Gregarius's_post_, but _its_color_. Notice I said _its_ and not _it's_: as I said above, _it's_ is short for _it_is_. Confused yet ;-). Well, actually many people get lost in all that. But remember, never use the apostrophe just to form a mere plural (unless you are trying to write the possessive of the plural: _the_gargoyles'_faith_, for instance).

That statement was still confusing. *sigh* In any event, I hope this explanation is of some service to you.

Back to my comment:
Coma-man> "With HM, the whole series got a step too far: it got dark, philosophical, violent... too much for a Disney series. It became it's own mind, it's own soul."
Didn't you see traces off that throughout the entire series? ("Awakenings", "Deadly Force", etc. *†)

"One more thing I noticed: when HM first ran on german TV, they said that it WAS the last Garg EP."

To (mis?)quote Brooklyn, "So begins Gargoyles, Chapter Two... or is it Three? I've lost count!" It really all depends on how you look at it.

-------------------
*†: Does anyone know the rule about positioning commas and quotation marks when the quotation marks are not setting off a quotation, like here?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 12, 2003 02:07:25 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Hm... I should really type slower... lol...

One more thing I noticed: when HM first ran on german TV, they said that it WAS the last Garg EP.

Later, when TGC came up, they rejected to show it on it's own and threw it together with G. EP's from season 1!!! THEY REALLY DID! I think it was Turf and one more EP I can't remember...

However, IMHO, the series end's with Hunters Moon! The Journey first counts when Greg get's the show back on air!!! ;D

The Coma-man
Berlin, germany
Sunday, October 12, 2003 10:28:49 AM
IP: 217.87.26.56

Hunters Moon --

Ah... maybe one of the greates episodes ever done in any series.

It is interresting that you point out that it could have been a fantastic ending. When I first saw the EP years ago, I thought so.

What most fascinates me about this EP is it's dark and eyrie atmosphere: one villain tries to destroy manhood (with a virus!!!), a group tries to KILL the hero's of the series (and they almost succeed with Angela), the home of our hero's is destroyed... and one of them almost killed (ew... Lex looked REALLY bad). And the ending, when we get to see that Jason is now disabled... WOW!

What I allways notice is that HM is VERRY cold. It has almost no collours but black and red and the major themes are killing and revenge. While in most other EP's, the Garg's were "protecting & serving", here they tried to get revenge!

With HM, the whole series got a step too far: it got dark, philosophical, violent... too much for a Disney series. It became it's own mind, it's own soul.

The theme of the KKK Greg adopted in the masterplan/season 3 continued this and it is a shame that it was mostly used only like some kinda "armed organisation" hating the Garg's without any reason...

I still wonder what Greg had in mind with the disabled Jason...

The Coma-man
Berlin, germany
Sunday, October 12, 2003 10:24:48 AM
IP: 217.87.26.56

Re: Parallels
I thought the biggest parallel between season 1 and "Hunters Moon" was the battle between Robin and Jon and the gargoyles and the battle with Hakon and the Vikings in "Awakenings" part 2. The gargoyles fight both battles for revenge for their fallen clan members and Goliath even uses the same threats, declaring Hakon and the Captain of the Guard will join all of his kind that were killed and that Jon will join his brother.

Others could be the complacency (sp?) felt by the gargoyles after their victories over the vikings in "Awakenings" part 1 and the hunters in "Hunters Moon" part 2, as well as Castle Wyvern being sacked and the clock tower being destroyed and the temporary abandonment by the humans of said structures.

Thats all I've got for now.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Saturday, October 11, 2003 08:38:42 PM
IP: 65.120.97.228

Sorry for the double-post (and again, I'm only doing it because nobody came by since my post this morning), but here are a few more thoughts on "Hunter's Moon".

One line of the Hunters that mildly amuses me is Jason Canmore's statement that their family had been pursuing Demona for a thousand years. In fact, it was a few decades less than that since the Hunters had begun with Gillecomgain, who wasn't a family member. (And even after Duncan first took up the mask in 1032, the Hunters were focused from then until 1057 not on gargoyles but on Macbeth, as part of their feud over the succession to the Scottish throne. It wasn't until after 1057 that their hunt would have genuinely been one for Demona.)

I still think that it's a bit of a pity that the lost scene from Part Three where Jason has to confess to Elisa that he doesn't even know what got his family to originally hunt gargoyles, that the feud's been going on for so long that they've forgotten what started it. A sad comment about the nature of feuds and vendettas.

I've mentioned before how I thought that Jon Canmore's fall was well-prepared for in that, even before he goes mad, he never does that good a job of protecting the gargoyles. He allows himself to be talked down by Jason and Robyn too easily, he exposes them on the air without even protesting when Robyn gets him to do it, and during the battle of the dam, when Elisa asks him if he can't do anything to stop it, replies "I wish that I could" in a defeatist way. (Compare that with Elisa who was actively trying to stop Goliath and Jason from fighting each other.) That's one thing that I like about "Gargoyles"; it takes care to prepare for these changes to make them believable.

One touch that I liked in the Renaissance Florence flashback: we get a glimpse of the famous Brunelleschi dome. It brought back fond memories of a history class that I took in college about Florence under the Medici. (I also really liked the Hunter's flying machine for that scene; he must have had a partnership with Leonardo da Vinci, or if not da Vinci, then somebody with a similar zest for designing those contraptions.)

Charles Canmore being killed in front of his children by Demona at Notre Dame strikes me as almost a twisted parody of Bruce Wayne's parents being killed in front of him as a boy; indeed, the Hunters in general came across as almost a darker version of Batman. (Kind of appropriate, when you remember that the production team were afraid that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as a "Batman" rip-off.)

One thing that "Generations" really passed up (it should have been a must when Demona next entered the series) was her response to Goliath foiling "Operation Clean Slate". I think that they should have had something along these lines at some point in "Gargoyles" after that:

Demona has a run-in with the clan shortly after a narrow brush with the Quarrymen in which the gargs almost get killed. Demona says to Goliath, "This is all your fault! If you hadn't stopped me, I could have gotten rid of all the humans before they had enough time to attack us! Your foolish soft-heartedness towards them has signed our death warrant!"

"Hunter's Moon" indeed could almost have ended the series; so much in it makes it a great series finale: the reconciliation between the gargoyles and Xanatos, the clan moving back into the castle, Demona's big "destroy humanity" scheme foiled, and Goliath and Elisa kissing at last. But there was one big loose end to be dealt with: the fact that the clan's secret had been blown, and now there's a mob of frightened citizenry convinced that the gargoyles are out to get them. Which provided them with a way of moving the series on into "The Journey"....

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 11, 2003 07:56:42 PM
IP: 171.75.195.65

Well, watched all of "Hunter's Moon" last night for a Gargoyles marathon. I had some fun noting the echoes of Season One, especially in "Awakening". So far, I've gotten down:

Goliath and Elisa (this time around with some help from the trio and Angela) rescue the yuppies from the street thugs again (it might also be a parallel of the initial defeat of Hakon in "Awakening Part One" followed by the humans being unappreciative).
Brooklyn gets wounded in the hand in the first battle but it's easily cured by stone sleep (parallel to Goliath in the first battle with Hakon).
Jason Canmore and Elisa mentioning "alligators in the sewers" when they discuss New York rumors (alligators in the sewers were mentioned by the Pack in "The Thrill of the Hunt").
The warehouse robbery that Jason and Elisa foil happens in the same area as Dracon's theft of Xanatos's particle beam accelerators in "Deadly Force".
Elisa's initial protest of having a new partner (Jason) parallels her initial protest of being partnered with Matt in "The Edge".
Xanatos mentions the Daily Tattler to Jon Canmore (which was initially mentioned in "The Thrill of the Hunt").
Angela's remark to Hudson about how he'd told her not to believe everything she saw on television (the ending of "The Thrill of the Hunt").
The trio inadvertently cause another fire in their fight with Demona (parallel to the one that they caused when Lex crashed Vinnie's motorcycle) and are again stuck with what to tell Goliath.
The "What could be strong enough" line.
Goliath and Demona team up on board a giant airship (the Hunters' ship here, Fortress One in "Awakening").
The Hunters putting a tracking device on Goliath (a la Xanatos in "Awakening").
Elisa falls off the dam - but this time Goliath fails to save her.
The ending with the gargoyles roosting on Castle Wyvern's battlements, Elisa spending a moment with Goliath, and all appearing right with the world.

There are probably more, but these are the biggies. I also spotted a "City of Stone" parallel, where Demona comments that she has no idea why the Hunters are going after her and have been doing so for so long, which reminded me of the bit in "City of Stone" where Gillecomgain confronts her with the scars on his face that she gave him when he was a boy, only to discover to his surprise and fury that she doesn't even remember the incident.

One thing that I definitely remember about the episode from my first-time viewing of it was my alarm when Goliath vowed, at the end of Part One, to search for the Hunters and kill them. I was far more worried about him after that than I was about whether Angela would live or not.

I've more to say, but it'll have to wait for this evening.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 11, 2003 06:55:46 AM
IP: 171.75.194.122

Todd> i was wondering what he meant by that as well. i was at the 2002 Gathering and don't really remember anything mentioned about Arthur. Gorlois is an Atlantean word that eventually evolved in Gargoyle, but does the word Gorlois have something to do with the man Gorlois? like you said, doesn't seem likely, but look at the Hakon/Wolf connection, that doesn't seem likely either... still, i think there is something we're missing...
matt
Saturday, October 11, 2003 05:54:22 AM
IP: 207.230.48.6

JJ Gregarius > ^_^ thanks!
Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, October 11, 2003 12:45:53 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

ABBY - There was a "Star Trek" parallel to "Possession"? Why am I not surprised? (I mean, in light of where the series got so many voice actors from....) Though we're going to have to wait for Greg's ramble to find out if that episode was an influence on "Possession" or not.

And I'd spotted the "Bewitched" reference as well.

Greg Weisman mentioned in one of his latest answers at "Ask Greg" that there's an indirect hint to what he'd have done with the story of the conception of Arthur in what was discussed at the Gathering 2002 and 2003. I wonder if the indirect hint could be the "Team Atlantis" episode featuring Demona, since I understand that she was called "the Gorlois" in it. (Though I'm not sure what connection she'd have had there, since she hadn't even been hatched during Arthur's original lifetime - unless, of course, she had some unrecorded adventures with the Phoenix Gate in "Vows" between dropping Xanatos and Co. off in 975 and visiting her younger self.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 10, 2003 07:40:39 PM
IP: 171.75.194.61

BattleBeast, from the online Merriam-Webser dictionary: http://www.m-w.com

Main Entry: sub·ter·fuge
Pronunciation: 's&b-t&r-"fyüj
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin subterfugium, from Latin subterfugere to escape, evade, from subter- secretly (from subter underneath; akin to Latin sub under) + fugere to flee -- more at UP, FUGITIVE
Date: 1573
1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
2 : a deceptive device or stratagem
synonym see DECEPTION

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 10, 2003 05:38:20 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Void: I think you're missing the whole thing about Elisa & Goliath. Just think; from Elisa's point of view, she may have wanted Goliath to stay human. But I don't think they were really at that stage yet.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 10, 2003 03:54:38 PM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Possesion> I never understood this episode untill I watched it several times, But I think I have it figured out.

I love the "chin up" remark, but did ANYONE NOTICE the subtle refernce to BEWITCHED? Xanatos says, "Couldn't you just wiggle your nose, or something?" This always gives me a laugh.

Xanatos is really showing that he cares in this episode. He really is. In "The Gathering" he was thankful to Goliath that he saved his son. This is another way of Xanatos wanting to repay Goliath & Co. for helping him in his darkest hour (I think it was darker than going to prison).

Xanatos is the kind of guy who keeps his friends close & his enemies closer. But Goliath & Co. aren't "friends" yet (that will happen in HM III). This was only a small token of friendship that Xanatos could offer to Goliath. What else could be better than having three 1,001 years dead siblings brought back to life (in robot form no lees)?

I think The Cold's Steel and Fire robots could have had some kind of "syntho-flesh" instead of steel bodies. This way the would have been more like real Gargoyles. (Ah but we can't always get what we want.) I didn't like the "tendrles" that Cold Steel had; I don't think they should have had anything else but gargoyles bodies.

Did you also notice the giant clock Puck has? It really made me laugh; in fact, it still does.

And what about Jeff Bennet doing that pseudo accent? I love it! "Very astute dear brother! Slow, but astute!"

And I also liked who clueless Goliath and Hudson really were. They had no clue as to what was going on.

And what's with the big words? Subterfuge? Astute? I never heard of subterfuge untill "Possesion." I still don't know what it means.

Great ep.

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, October 10, 2003 12:38:04 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

CK> what program do you use to play your eps? I've been forced to rely on winamp for some of mine, Media player is a bit grouchy with the codecs.... wish i'd never upgraded from MP6, was much more reliable

I watched my episode of "the Mirror" this morning.... i have to say its one of my all time episodes, shows how both sides (demona and the gargoyles) have learned to anticipate, and outflank each other. A case of i know that they know that i know that they know..... anyway... lol. One of the things about the mirror that confuses me a bit, is why elisa still chose to go back to her human form. Its obvious how she feels about goliath, and how he feels about her, yet she chooses to make such a relationship nearly impossible. I know she has her job and all..... but really, whats a job when it comes down to love? I can't think of a single real reason (unless its season continuity and such) for her to change back..... but i guess it WOULD be a bit too easy to simply have her stay gargoyle or have a gift like demona has, and relying on Matt as thier human liason wouldn't have as much implication and connotation, unless angela switched from broadway to human (and she wasn't around yet then) just a bit of a ramble afore work, hope i made sense and all :)

Void
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 10, 2003 11:06:13 AM
IP: 68.88.34.63

I was able to see the Hunter's Moon this morning. It was spectacular. I also plan on watching at least part of that episode tonight.

Todd, I have enjoyed reading your rambles, too. I watched "Possession" after reading your comments. It's one of my favorite episodes, for some of the reasons you mention. BTW, it was one of the first ones I saw; imagine how confusing it was to try to keep up with the plot when you're unfamiliar with the characters and the story behind them (like the ColdTrio being in Coldstone).

I don't know if this has been mentioned here before (sorry if it has been, but I am relatively new to this site), but "Possession" is very similar to the original Star Trek episode "Return to Tomorrow." In that episode, three aliens possess Kirk, Spock, and a female guest star (the same actress who later played Dr. Pulaski in TNG). They begin building ColdTrio-like androids for themselves, but the "evil one" (in Spock) tries to convince the others to keep the human bodies they have. The female is tempted, but her mate (in Kirk) convinces her that doing so would be wrong. They defeat the evil one and they all end up going into oblivion.

Actually, I find the resolution of "Possession" more satisfying. I love the expression on Broadway's face when he and Angela are together after regaining possession of their bodies.

Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Friday, October 10, 2003 09:30:03 AM
IP: 161.225.1.12

CKAYOTE - No, that's okay. I'm not computer-savvy enough to handle something like that. So please don't bother.

RAC - Yes, I've kind of enjoyed these rambles myself. I'd certainly like to see Greg be able to do them again.

And today is the Hunter's Moon. I'll be watching my tape of "Hunter's Moon" (all three episodes) this evening.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 10, 2003 07:41:59 AM
IP: 171.75.244.8

Was doodling 'round on the site and took the Gargoyles Trivia Game. About halfway through, I found a mistake. One of the questions asks "What was the name of the human female that was turned into a gargoyle by Sevarius?" The available answers are "Maggie Simpson, Maggie Reed, Maggie Something and Maggie Somethingelse." The answer the system wants is Maggie Reed, but she was not turned into a gargoyle by Sevarius - but into a mutate. Important distinction and all.
If anyone else cares...

Lurking Fish
Friday, October 10, 2003 02:07:43 AM
IP: 4.7.35.8

Todd- I have "The Journey" on my hardrive. If you want I can email you it (plus the program to play it).
But it's a big file, do you have DSL or something? It Won't do any good if you have dial-up.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 10, 2003 12:58:50 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Darn,almost over? Your rambles are usually entertaining to read and I usually gleam a few nuggets of info that I didn't know before. Can't wait for Greg to get back to rambling again but I'll have to be patient.
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Thursday, October 9, 2003 11:51:21 PM
IP: 24.195.2.24

And once again, like yesterday, nobody seems to have visited this room since this morning.

Watched my tape of "Possession" this afternoon. Wraps up the ColdTrio thread more or less (in the sense that it didn't get any further development, although there's still room for it with Coldsteel on the loose), and incorporates Puck's first training session with Alex. Not to mention that it ensures that Broadway and Angela will wind up together and starts up the concept of Lexington and Alex becoming friends.

The Himalayas scene at the beginning, of course, makes additional sense now that we know that Greg Weisman had planned an Avalon World Tour story about Goliath and Co. meeting him in the Himalayas, which never got told because the comic book folded. I wonder if the Himalayas scene was there in part as Greg's way of giving himself a consolation prize for not getting to tell that particular story....:) (It also gives us the final scene for the Steel Clan in the series.)

Xanatos displays his usual tendency to come up with all the good lines in telling Coldstone, while his head is separated from the rest of him, "Chin up" (at this point, remember, he's a disconnected head). Coldstone, needless to say, doesn't find it amusing.

Another fun moment comes when Lexington reports to the possessed Brooklyn, Angela, and Broadway about how Coldstone must be possessed by Iago, and Iago-in-Brooklyn's body, knowing "the Evil One's" true whereabouts, cries out "That's impossible!" before having to hurriedly add on an explanation to the others about how "the Evil One" must have evaporated, to keep from giving himself away.

And Puck has his usual "having a ball" tendencies, particularly with lines like "Naughty, naughty, sneaking up like that on Uncle Coldstone" and "Hey, I live for subterfuge!" He even pulls that giant watch out of nowhere and tosses it to Goliath.

The first time around that I saw this one, by the way, I thought when Xanatos and Owen were unsuccessfully attempting to transfer Iago and Desdemona's souls into the robot bodies of Coldsteel and Coldfire that they were trying to repair Coldstone instead; it's the sort of thing that makes sense, I suppose, after you've seen the whole episode and are seeing it again.

It makes a nice change of pace to have a "mind switch" episode in a cartoon (well, it's not exactly a mind switch, but close enough) where the possessed characters talk in the voices of their bodies rather than of their possessors (and the voice actors did a great job of handling their characters' possessors).

Well, tomorrow it'll be "Hunter's Moon" (and the astronomical phenomenon as well as the episode), and then it'll be over since I don't have any tapes of the Goliath Chronicles (not even "The Journey"). So it's almost over.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 9, 2003 07:06:24 PM
IP: 171.75.231.177

From the FAQ

16. Why did Goliath and Angela think that Demona was dead in "The Reckoning?"

They knew about her immortality, but they didn't know exactly how much damage Demona could take. The fire seemed like it could kill her, so they were left uncertain (until her reappearance in "Hunter's Moon").

Greg B
Thursday, October 9, 2003 06:52:39 PM
IP: 199.93.82.163

Todd Jensen ~(I do wonder if Vinnie's naming his pie-gun is that oddball a thing to do. After all, in ancient and medieval legend, a lot of magical or semi-magical swords such as Excalibur had names, so why shouldn't an out-of-the-ordinary weapon have one? But the choice of "Mr. Carter" is definitely a little oddball.)

It's reference to the old show "Welcome Back Cotter". A character on the show, Vinnie Barbarino, was played by John Travolta. Gargoyles' Vinnie has the same accent as Cotter Vinnie, making Cotter sound like Carter. Why it was a pie-bazooka I have no idea,
Chameleongirl79 - [chameleongirl79@yahoo.com]
Thursday, October 9, 2003 08:38:17 AM
IP: 203.220.174.103

BATTLE BEAST - For goodness' sakes, please look over the spelling of your post before sending it! It was riddled with typos such as "Golaith" for "Goliath".

I think that Goliath had simply forgotten about the Weird Sisters' spell in the confusion. It's easy to nitpick when you're sitting at home in your armchair, watching the thing on television and able to remain semi-detached and critical. It's harder when the thing's happening to you and you're in a life-and-death confrontation.

One thing that I forgot to mention last night: the writers played fair in preparing the audience for Delilah's role. When Sevarius is receiving Lexington's DNA from the robot mosquito, he comments "Three down, two to go." So that means five clones in all, and since the clones of Hudson and the trio only number four, alert members of the audience would already realize that there's a fifth clone out there, even before Delilah makes her entrance. Good work on the writers' part.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 9, 2003 07:45:35 AM
IP: 171.75.194.80

The Reckoning> Yup, this is one of my fav eps.

I love the line, "This tin Can won't save you!"
"Oh, but it's a very cleaver tin can." Great material.

I also like the part where Demona saves Angela after having been double crossed by Thailog. Sher had realised it from the "Paris" ep (the name escapes me) but Thailog wasn't with her at all.

And how could we forget the "How many Gargoyles..." line? My favourtie answer: "How many Gargoyles does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Six. One to screw in the lightbulb and five to berate themselves for not protecting the old one from burning out."

Demona could never have died in that fire because she is immortal. Golaith and Hudson new this, so why not share the knowledge? Angela would want to know. Golaith knows that MacBeth must kill Demona, and vice versa.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that the clones can whip the gargoyles butts fairly easily? You'd think that Golaith & Co. could easily outdo them any day of the week.

A wonderful episode; cna't say why I like it so much but I just do.

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, October 9, 2003 02:13:23 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

It's knowledge by now that the animation in 'Goliath Chronicles' left a LOT to be desired, but am I the only one who was really annoyed that in tonight's rerun starring Proteus (I believe it's titled 'Proteus', but I could be really wrong- I'm not as up on the GC eps besides 'Journey') Elisa looked like Jasmine in jeans? Not to mention the contrast between her character in the original canon and in GC- so exceedingly apparent in this episode, where she's a total Disney princess. (Bleh.) Talk about utter series/character regression. I also noted how they don't really even delve into the Goliath/Elisa relationship in the GC- too touchy for Disney/ABC to handle at that point?

Vashkoda- thanks for the link to the cool fan essay on Elisa by Constance (sorry, I don't recall her last name). It was a great read with some good points- now I'm off to catch up on the posts from the past few days; I've been out of town.

Rock on...(I love how 'Gargoyles' gives that statement new meaning... :)

Susan - [scriptingstar@yahoo.com]
Thursday, October 9, 2003 01:04:46 AM
IP: 64.12.96.45

Did Michael Reaves write "The Reckoning"? If so, he may have had some input into the naming of the clones.

(Reaves was a writer for the first few seasons of TMNT)

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 09:38:37 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Sorry for the double post (admittedly, it's only a double post because nobody seems to have visited this place during the entire day), but I watched my tape of "The Reckoning" this afternoon, and here's my comments on it.

This episode sees the Clones introduced into the series. One thing that occurred to me recently is that Demona's going so far as to give "parallel names" to the Clones reminded me a little of an episode of the original "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" cartoon back in the late 80's, where Shredder came up with a group of mutant frogs to battle the Turtles and decided to name them after the historical figures whom he most admired as an echo of Splinter naming the Turtles after his favorite Renaissance artists (the figures in question being Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and Rasputin). I don't know if Greg was influenced by it or even aware of it in the Clones' names, however. (At any rate, Demona's choice of names suggests that she has some interest in Los Angeles.)

Demona's attitude towards the Clones illustrates one feature of hers about preserving the gargoyle race: she seems to be more concerned with its physical preservation than its mental preservation. She's perfectly happy to kill Goliath and his clan while producing as her new clan gargoyle clones whom she's deliberately kept ignorant (well, that last part is more Thailog's doing than hers, but she clearly agreed with it). It reminds me a little of the scene in C. S. Lewis's "Out of the Silent Planet" where the Oyarsa comments that Weston's concern with preserving humanity seems based more on preserving its "seed" rather than the living beings themselves.

Thailog and Sevarius are as cheerfully malevolent as ever (I particularly liked the bit where they agree that they want to keep the Clones' programming simple: "After all, you wouldn't want to end up with another you."). Thailog displays almost an element of chutzpah in choosing for Demona's replacement a combined clone of herself and Elisa. No wonder Demona went at him after that!

And Fang made a great comic relief element, with lines such as "Some of my best friends are half-human half-gargoyle babes with bad attitudes!" I can't help but think that it was a good thing for him that he and Demona were in separate cells when he commented on her transformation "Kinky." :) Another fun little bit: he uses his electrical generating ability to make scratches in the wall counting off the days of his imprisonment.

I'll have more to say about it tomorrow morning (not much time left, alas).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 07:11:27 PM
IP: 171.75.195.110

CHRISTINE - Yep, I felt the same way about Rogue smashing Mystique; in fact, it struck me as even more disturbing than Demona's "City of Stone" rampage.

JIMMY - I think that you mentioned that nightmare here before once; it's definitely a sad one. I hope that the X-Men would have found some way of providing a purpose for Goliath to go on after the deaths of his clan and Elisa; we all remember what he did the last time that he went through a loss on that scale.

(In the unfinished crossover story that I wrote - which I was working on long before "Day of Reckoning", the "X-Men: Evolution" story that introduced the Sentinels into the series - the Sentinels were included in an off-stage manner as a government project that Trask was working on - only, not to use against mutants - whom the authorities didn't know about as yet - but against the gargoyles. Trask's big problem was finding a company to actually build the Sentinels, by the way; Xanatos Enterprises was obviously out thanks to the rumors that Xanatos was sheltering the gargoyles, Dominique Destine threw Trask out of her office - probably not literally - the moment that he approached her about Nightstone Unlimited building anti-gargoyle robots, and Halcyon Renard likewise immediately turned Trask down when Trask sought out Cyberbiotics' help. I had the idea of a sequel episode when Trask finally found a company willing to build the Sentinels, led by a newcomer reclusive businessman named Alexander T. Edmund - the only problem being, guess what the "T" in "Alexander T. Edmund" stands for!)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 07:44:33 AM
IP: 171.75.194.114

I had that same thought watching X-Men Evolution. Was all incensed that they were willy-nilly blasting and breaking the castle. And the other episode where Rogue knocked the stone Mystique off the cliff ... boy, Becca and I were both deeply shocked.

Site update: new pic of Aiden and Lex, cover of my latest book, chat news, etc. Click or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html

Christine - [<----- updates!]
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 12:41:56 AM
IP: 208.187.159.79

I even once set out to write a crossover between "X-Men: Evolution" and "Gargoyles",

-I once had a dream in which the entire Manhattan clan except Goliath was shatterred by sentinels during a battle with the X-Men (collateral damage, nothing deliberate.) After the battle, the X-Men took their wounded to the clock tower to wait for the blackbird when Goliath awoke. Then Elisa came up and they were both naturally shocked. The X-Men invited Goliath and Elisa to the mansion to make up for the loss. Goliath goes and it turns out Elisa died somehow. It was a very good, if sad story. Sadly, I can't remember it too well.

Jimmy
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 10:47:15 PM
IP: 199.74.79.167

PHIL - Thanks for sharing your Macbeth story with us.

Watched my tape of "Turf" today. Greg Weisman mentioned at "Ask Greg" that this episode marks the final break-up of Dracon's gang (the mere fact that this time his lawyers apparently weren't able to get him out on bail as they had at the time of "The Silver Falcon" and "Protection" indicates that he was definitely losing his pull), which makes me wonder two things. First, what would have happened to Dracon after that (I assume that Greg had plans for the guy beyond his fall from power), and second, who would have replaced Dracon as the "organized crime representative" in the series? (Probably not Brod; his set-back was just as serious as Tony's.)

I have the feeling that some trio fans, at least, might not like "Turf" because it makes those three look almost like the gargoyle equivalent of the Three Stooges, especially when they're so busy fighting that they don't see the chimney until it's too late, or when Brooklyn's yelling at Lex and Broadway "Knock it off, you mutton-heads!" (The trio as the Three Stooges: presumably, it would be Brooklyn as Moe, Lexington as Larry, and Broadway as Curly.)

Obviously "Turf" was before Lexington realized that he was gay, given that he was pursuing Angela just as eagerly as Brooklyn and Broadway were. (But given that he took her choosing Broadway a lot better than Brooklyn did in "The Journey", I think that he must have come to that realization by then.)

The turf war had a lot of fun lines: "Come on down to Dracon's House of Auto Parts: the prices are hot and so is the merchandise." "This is why I never go in first." (spoken by Brod after Elisa, who does, gets knocked out by Dracon's men). "Chop shop? What is chop shop?" "What's going on here? I didn't order a break-out!" Not to mention the ending where Tony finds himself with a new cellmate....

I wonder how many people figured out Salli's true identity before she took off that blonde wig at the beginning of Act Two (I know that I wasn't one of them). Of course, her name's a clue (at least if you're familiar with the names of the voice actors, which I wasn't at the time that I first saw "Turf").

A relatively slight episode, but still amusing. (And I'd forgotten about Angela's big line: STOP CALLING ME ANGIE!)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 06:28:39 PM
IP: 171.75.245.214

Rac:

Well, I took it to mean that if/when Platinum Studios makes a cartoon about its own characters, Disney/ABC will air it. Unfortunately, its nothing Gargoyle related, at least not at the moment, since I don't think Platinum can use Disney's characters for anything, I just thought it was an interesting connection between Mr. Weisman and Disney.

You never know though. If the deal goes well, maybe it could lead to other things.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 05:18:51 PM
IP: 65.120.100.226

Hi everybody!

I took my kids to the library the other night. It's housed in a big old building downtown. As we were leaving, they noticed the gargoyles and pointed them out to me. It was just after sunset, so I commented that if they were real gargoyles they wouldn't still be sitting there on the edge of the roof. My wife has been teasing me ever since about my definition of "real gargoyles."

Anyway, while I was at the library, I was walking through the biography section and the name MacBeth caught my eye. Although I didn't plan on checking out the book, I picked it up and leafed through it. I was hooked at the first page; there was a family tree with at least a dozen names I recognized from "Three Brothers" and "City of Stone." The book is "MacBeth, High King of Scotland" by Peter Berresford Ellis. I'm not very far into it yet, so I don't know whether to recommend it, but its neat to find yet another confirmation of the educational aspects of "Gargoyles."


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 04:41:57 PM
IP: 134.215.241.147

Evermore:

So what are you saying? They can use Disney's characters for a Tv show, comic book, any other kind of medium? Not sure what it all means...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 02:27:24 PM
IP: 128.113.166.14

Todd> "(There's also the scene about the construction worker seeing Goliath and Hudson and convincing himself frantically that it's a hallucination from his cold medicine.)"
makes me think that if his cold medicine is strong enough to make him see two gargoyles walking around then maybe he shouldn't be operating heavy machinery!!!

matt
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 09:36:09 AM
IP: 207.230.48.121

Hi everybody.

I don't know how many people saw the article at Toonzone (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=90778)but apparently, Platinum Studios, have reached an agreement with Disney to develop projects based on the company's characters. The deal with Disney is for one-year, non-exclusive first look for projects for ABC Family and the Disney Channel.

As most of you probably know, Mr. Weisman is the lead on Platinum's Megaverse Bible project.

Just thought that was interesting. Bye now.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 09:21:42 AM
IP: 65.120.100.226

X-Men Evo: They had another Gargoyles riff in the episode "No Good Deed"- Avalanche knocks a gargoyle off of a building, one that looks suspiciously like Broadway.

Todd- I'd read that Gargoyles/Evo crossover in a heartbeat. :)

warrioress
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 09:03:13 AM
IP: 65.26.71.7

SIRYN - Yep, I'd also noticed that. "X-Men: Evolution" has had a few other moments that evoked "Gargoyles" for me, especially the fact that its Season Two Finale ("Day of Reckoning") had some striking similarities to "Hunter's Moon". The existence of mutants was revealed to the world in "Day of Reckoning", just as the existence of gargoyles was revealed to the world in "Hunter's Moon". Xavier's mansion was blown up in "Day of Reckoning"; the clock tower was blown up in "Hunter's Moon". And a major antagonist in both stories was a blue-skinned red-haired female psychopath who has difficulties relating with her offspring, offspring who are part of the protagonists' team.

(I even once set out to write a crossover between "X-Men: Evolution" and "Gargoyles", though it wound up never getting finished. It had the X-Men showing up in New York to investigate what appeared to be a mutant signature that Cerebro had picked up coming from the Eyrie Building, but which was really Alex during one of his magic lessons - halfling abilities and mutant abilities apparently being similar enough to confuse Cerebro. While there, they became involved with both an effort by a crack team of federal agents to capture the gargoyles and take them back to Washington D.C. for study - the leader of this team being Henry Gyrich - and the Quarrymen, who mistake Nightcrawler for a gargoyle. One line that I had some fun with before I wound up abandoning it was Xanatos's response to the term "X-Men", commenting to Owen, "It's a pity that I didn't come up with that one first.")

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 07:43:35 AM
IP: 171.75.194.20

Hm, speaking of references, has anyone seen that Disney World commercial where they talk about people getting together, and then the announcer says something like, "...there's a word for this", and automatically I think "Gathering". Imagine my surprise when they say "gathering" too! Apparently "Magical Gathering" is their new catch phrase or slogan or whatever to get people to go to their parks. I thought that was pretty funny.
Vash
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 01:48:12 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Naming objects isn't really that wierd. My computer is named Bianca. My cell phone is named Troy. My Gamecube is named Veronica. It's just a running joke I have with one of my friends. Long story. But naming weapons is actually a pretty traditional thing to do. In Devil May Cry Dante's two guns were named Ivory and Ebony. Thor's hammer was named Mjolnir, etc. Mr. Carter may have been a bit strange, but whatever.
Jimmy
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 12:37:10 AM
IP: 199.74.79.167

Or maybe it was just a joke put in bored writers. Either way it's still funny.
But now I think I'll have to watch Vedettas off my harddrive tomorrow.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 12:12:59 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Another Gargoyle Reference Siting!!

Watching back/recent episodes of X-men Evolution. (Frank Paur is the producer..I'm 99% sure?) Anyways, the beginning of the episode 'Sins of the Father' they show a Scottish Castle on a mountain top overlooking the water. Which looks _VERY_ much like our Castle Wyvern. Just thought I would share. ^_^ Whether Frank did it on purpose or not, still is pretty cool regardless. ^_^

Gahh..really should compile a list of these things. O.o;;;

Siryn
Monday, October 6, 2003 11:48:54 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

How do we know that the Gargoyles theme isn't some sort of traditional folk song in that universe?
Since it isn't in ours (as a traditional piece), perhaps it has to do with the differences between our universes?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 6, 2003 11:33:34 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Sahyinepu> "should anyone in the Gargoyles universe know the theme song?" How do you know that the show's theme song wasn't inspired by Vinnie's tune? ;)
Vash
Monday, October 6, 2003 10:23:31 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Yeah..I was wondering if the part where Vennie hummed the Garg. theme song, if that wasn't a bit like Puck sticking his face in the "camera", and sorta breaking the fourth wall? I mean, should anyone in the Gargoyles universe know the theme song?
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Monday, October 6, 2003 10:18:13 PM
IP: 64.221.10.167

Watched my tape of "Vendettas" this afternoon. I'm finding myself warming a little more to the Wolf-and-Hakon part of the story, although I still do find it something of an anticlimax to "Shadows of the Past".

My problem with Hakon's return was that (aside from the fact that I'd have considered it more poetic if he really had been trapped by himself in that cave forever, with "nobody to hate") it was less dramatically effective than "Shadows of the Past". In "Shadows of the Past", Hakon (with the Captain) was subtly playing on Goliath's troubled memories of the Wyvern Massacre to wear him down, with rich psychological content. In "Vendettas", he was just beating Goliath and Hudson up in a regular slugfest alongside a big dumb werewolf. On the other hand, I found it amusing (if a little far-fetched) that Wolf would be Hakon's descendant.

We all know now (I assume) that Greg Weisman views Hakon being bound to a battle-axe rather than a mace as a big mistake on his part. But I think that the axe was fortunate for one part, when Wolf says "Tonight is battle-axe night". I don't think that "Tonight is mace night" would have had the same ring to it.

They still had a few fun moments in the battle, particularly when Goliath and Hudson send Wolf flying through the wall near the end of Act One, just after Wolf announces that he's going to swat them like gnats. There's something amusing about seeing somebody boasting about the fight that he's going to put up and then getting taken down just like that without even striking back once.

(There's also the scene about the construction worker seeing Goliath and Hudson and convincing himself frantically that it's a hallucination from his cold medicine.)

The real highlight of the episode, for me, was Vinnie. I thought that he was very funny (though the first time that I saw "Vendettas", I thought that the notion of the motorcycle rider from "Awakening Part Three", the Cyberbiotics security guard on board Fortress One in "Awakening Part Four", and the Gen-U-Tech security guard in "The Cage" all being the same guy was also a bit hard to swallow). One of my favorite parts was how Vinnie's narration didn't quite fit the facts (as when he's saying about how he wasn't spooked by the gargoyles while we see him passing out after just seeing Goliath, or how he put up a fight to stop Goliath from kidnapping Sevarius while we see him reading the newspaper completely oblivious to what's happening to the not-so-good doctor behind him). And he displays his klutziness still more (especially in falling into the garbage truck).

But you've got to give Vinnie credit for one thing: he's the only character in the entire series who ever successfully got revenge on Goliath (although the fact that his revenge involved baked goods seems to have had a lot to do with that).

(I do wonder if Vinnie's naming his pie-gun is that oddball a thing to do. After all, in ancient and medieval legend, a lot of magical or semi-magical swords such as Excalibur had names, so why shouldn't an out-of-the-ordinary weapon have one? But the choice of "Mr. Carter" is definitely a little oddball.)

And Vinnie somehow knows the "Gargoyles" theme song well enough to hum on his way out....

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, October 6, 2003 08:13:59 PM
IP: 171.75.194.101

Another random pointless and wierd thought hit me today.
Does Avalon have indoor plumbing?
I mean, imagine all the fae coming back after living in the real world, and then having to use the outhouse.
Or Puck , asked about Avalon, saying, "Yeah I miss it. But at least we have indoor plumbing here."

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 6, 2003 04:53:10 PM
IP: 132.170.33.190

CKayote> Though Lex going into business with Alex wouldn't be surprising.

And as for what the public would and wouldn't accept. I don't see Xanatos making any decisions based on that. The man does have a spine after all.

Hey, maybe Lex goes into business with Nightstone Unlimited ;)

Greg Bishansky
Monday, October 6, 2003 04:48:43 PM
IP: 216.179.1.187

I think it would be Alex. I don't think society would deal positively with a Gargoyle co-chairing a major corporation anytime soon (post-Journey). Though maybe 20 years later when Alex has grown up....
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 6, 2003 04:41:48 PM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Hey.

Does GREG know what Titania said to Fox?

You gotta feel sad for Puck; I mean, he clearly WANTS to come back to Avalon, just not at that moment. However, Oberon is not that kind.

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, October 6, 2003 03:35:27 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

What about Alexander? Won't he inherit Renard's company when he dies and the LXM units seems to have bits of cybot technology in the them since they are all linked to a primary Master Matrix just as the Cybots were linked to Fortress II.
Question
Monday, October 6, 2003 02:44:11 PM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Did Greg ever confirm that Lex's future business partner is Xanatos? We know that their business will be called the 'Lexington-Xanatos corporation', but 'Xanatos' can refer to David, Fox, or Alex. Considering how Greg liked to describe the partner as 'unexpected', I think it would have been more of a shock if the partner turned out to be Fox (considering their history). You know, maybe to create some friendly competition with her husband. The business is supposed to have been formed because Lex and the partner saw a "niche" and decided to fill it. That 'niche' may be AI technology. Considering how the LX corp eventually creates the LXM robots, who are themselves linked to the Master Matrix, and how the matrix technology that Fox and her mother own eventually helps to create/evolve the super computer, I think Fox would be a better partner than David. Besides, wouldn't David be too busy running his own company to be directing such a focused enterprise? I can see how the two businesses would merge in the future, however, when Alex ends up inheriting them both.

So, uh, yeah. My question was just whether Greg actually said which Xanatos Lex went into business with. I looked for it in the achives without success.

Vashkoda
Monday, October 6, 2003 01:50:59 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

damn, forgot about the Top Ten... at least i can claim my lucky number 11th!
matt
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:07:18 PM
IP: 207.230.48.65

10th?
Leo
Monday, October 6, 2003 08:37:39 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

9th.

Watched my tape of "The Gathering Part Two" last night. We get one of the biggest battles in the series against Oberon himself, and got a measure of just how powerful he was; all of Xanatos's high-tech defenses, the gargoyles, Halcyon Renard and his cybots, and even Puck are pitted against him and he clears them all aside. What finally leads to Xanatos and Fox getting to keep Alexander is a more peaceful resolution whereby Puck becomes Alex's tutor.

Fox demonstrates the principle of "Don't mess with the mother" (much like Demona in "The Reckoning" and Princess Katharine in "Avalon Part Three", for that matter); she not only finally unleashes her powers, but actually uses them to send Oberon flying through the wall! (Followed by Puck saying gleefully "You hurt him with that. Do it again!")

I still think that Puck's revelation of the true reason for why Owen and Vogel looked so much alike was almost Greg Weisman having a little bit of fun with the fans. After all, everybody in the audience is thinking up to this point that Vogel's simply a rip-off of Owen. And then it turns out that actually Vogel's the original, and Owen's the imitation!

When/if Greg Weisman gets to do the ramble on "The Gathering Part Two", I wonder what he'll say in it about the now infamous "Titania whispering in Fox's ear" scene. (Obviously he won't reveal what she said in it, though; I don't think that he'll reveal it even on his deathbed.) I wonder also if he'd expected the almost obsessive interest that that scene has gotten from the fans. :)

Puck's fate strikes me as almost a case of "Be careful what you ask for". He doesn't want to go back to Avalon, is so desperate to not go back that he plagues Goliath with the whole "Future Tense" business just so that he can find a way to stay in the human world. He finally gets his wish in "The Gathering Part Two", but with the big drawback that he has to stay in the human world forever and trapped as Owen except when he's tutoring or protecting Alex. (Probably the funniest moment in the scene where Puck gets stripped of his powers comes when he's begging Oberon for mercy and Oberon simply comments, looking down at him, "Pathetic.")

So the Avalon World Tour ends, and we see the beginning of the end of the feud between Xanatos and the gargoyles (and small wonder, either, after what they'd done to him). Goliath's initial suspicion of Xanatos's sincerity (who can blame him, given that Xanatos hasn't been an honest adversary but engaged in a lot of trickery throughout) but then remembering from his own experiences with Angela what having a child can do to you was a nice touch.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, October 6, 2003 07:50:15 AM
IP: 171.75.244.65

Eighth! Eighth in the name of people who love to count! Ah-ha-ha! :: thunder and lightning ::
Patrick
Monday, October 6, 2003 06:47:38 AM
IP: 65.43.165.179

7!
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 6, 2003 01:01:41 AM
IP: 132.170.33.190

Sixth!!!! For Canada!!!
Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, October 6, 2003 12:43:10 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

...
B\
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:42:40 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Fifth. Just because.
Bud-Clare
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:27:28 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

Fourth.
Jimmy
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:11:17 AM
IP: 199.74.79.167

Then I am second. hehe
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:01:44 AM
IP: 64.221.10.159

Hello...Am I first?
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:01:07 AM
IP: 64.221.10.159

I claim #1 in the name of home-made quesadillas.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, October 6, 2003 12:00:46 AM
IP: 204.94.193.56