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Gargoyles

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Comments for the week ending October 20, 2003

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Hello!

Silverbolt> "I have not found a SINGLE cinema that is actually showing it!" - We don't even have a cinema!
Actually, I'd never heard of that film til I looked it up just now. One of my mates is quite into anime but I've yet to hear about this one from him either.
They do have a cinema on the ferry but it's a bit pricey. I got back from a shopping spree in aberdeen this morning. One of last night's movies was Finding Nemo - but they showed it way too early, when I was more interested in finding some dinner. Full of bairns too.

DVDs> All fingers & toes crossed for a european release!They seem to go one of 3 ways with advertising them over here - Released quietly with little advertisement (ie Treasure Planet), a more moderately advertised release like A Bugs Life, or majorly hyped up like Lilo & Stitch. I think gargoyles will probably be somewhere between the 1st 2 - a pretty quiet release, but some adverts, seeing as it won't have a cinema release first.

Apparently going to snow tomorrow - I'll believe it when I see it!

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Sunday, October 19, 2003 07:24:29 PM
IP: 213.122.147.29

Yeah, I've recently seen DVD commercials for most of the WB's live drama series. Transformers was a huge success, bolstered by the popularity of their toy series. They had several seasons, spinoffs, and even a movie. Gargoyles was a modest success. It was Disney's experiment with a more adult series, and though there were only a few critics, Disney was so afraid of associating itself with something unpopular that it used the "Buena Vista Television" label on the series instead of the classic Disney logo (as you'll recall, the other series on 'The Disney Afternoon' had the logo). Though it plays on 'Toon Disney' now, its weekday run is reserved for a time kids are usually in bed, and until this year, Disney would only air Gargoyles marathons on Halloween. I think Disney is aware that there is a 'cult' following for the show, but that means they're going to be pitching it quite differently than they would something like "The Tigger Movie". Would they even broadcast commercials for it on network television, or would they reserve it for something like Cartoon Network's Adult Swim?

Greg B.> Yes, it is all about money. But advertising costs money, too. I'm just wondering how much Disney will invest in the DVD before they fear they risk losing more money than making it.

Vash
Sunday, October 19, 2003 06:09:39 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Alot of the syndicated shows (Earth: Final Conflict, Andromeda, Hercules, Xena) as well as shows like Family Guy and Futurama get advertisements for their DVDs, so advertising them isn't unheard of. And, Spirited Away was advertised. I've seen the commercial a couple of times.

I think Gargoyles is pretty special just to be getting a DVD, as I haven't seen any other disney cartoon (not including movies) with one, so they must know there is a significant demand for the show, now they just have to gage how much money they can make off that demand.

As far as the arguement of resurrecting the original show versus going with a spinoff, personally I'd rather see the original show. There's so many stories left to be told with these characters, and I'd rather see them first person, than as a flashback or something. However, I'd be perfectly happy with any spinoff, though New Olympians would be a bit hard for me to get into.

That's all. Bye now.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Sunday, October 19, 2003 05:50:17 PM
IP: 65.120.106.102

<So, when's the last time you saw a commercial for a DVD that wasn't a major movie?>

How about the season 3 DVDs for Babylon Five?

Question
Sunday, October 19, 2003 04:19:54 PM
IP: 144.92.164.204

Gargoyles DVD> So, when's the last time you saw a commercial for a DVD that wasn't a major movie? I mean, take the season releases of Transformers on DVD, never saw a single commercial for them, and it's still selling very well. Same with other animated series released on DVD. I'm sure Gargs may get an advertisement in a magazine like Previews, and they may be plenty of buzz online also.

Just to keep things in perspective. I swear, reading this CR sometimes seems as if people are saying there is one big conspiracy by Disney to keep "Gargoyles" down, and piss off it's fans. Really, it's all about the Almighty Dollar.

Spirited Away - Didn't see it in the theatre, but saw it on DVD. Was kind of glad I didn't travel far out of my way to see this one, cause I didn't think it was anything special. I did however travel far out of my way to see the "Cowboy Bebop" movie when it had it's limited theatrical release, and I thought it was more than worth it. WIsh it got better distribution, cause I heard that it sold out for almost all of it's shows.

Greg Bishansky
Sunday, October 19, 2003 02:03:34 PM
IP: 216.179.1.24

BattleBeast, Vash, et.al>>
Take a look at what happened to Tron when the _Tron_20th_Anniversary_Collector's_Edition_ DVD was released a few years ago. Apparently the amount of preorders for the DVD blew the execs away. First, Disney started actively marketing the piece: for instance, the January before it was released I remember seeing ads on the Sci-fi Channel. Remember that this was *after* people surprised the company by preorders, *not* before.

More importantly, though, the Tron franchise now seems to be awakening. Disney is producing the game _Tron_2.0_, which has intrigued fans and reviewers alike. Adding to the excitement are rumors floating around of a new Tron movie. Jeff "Kevin Flynn" Bridges and Bruce "Alan/Tron" Boxleitner have both expressed interest in such a production, even though Disney won't admit its existence...yet. ;-).

All this for a twenty-year old franchise. Thus, we should not give up hope on our beloved ten-year old franchise. To (roughly) quote Kevin Flynn, "we will have only failed if we give up!"

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 19, 2003 12:16:30 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Spirited Away: I never saw any theater release trailers. I've seen a DVD trailer, so I just figured that it was going direct-to-DVD.
Do they have blockbuster in England? I recommend trying a video rental place. If not, I know NetFlix has it.

DVD sales: I can't see Disney putting alot of effort into advertising the release of a 7 year old series. Maybe a booth at The Gathering.
They'll probably just treat it as a niche product.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:46:12 AM
IP: 66.119.34.39

Silverbolt: I had to travel further than usual to see it as well, although I think it was totally worth it. That was weeks ago though and I don't know if it will still be on. Here's the list I searched under, at any rate.
Ed
Cambridge, England
Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:16:15 AM
IP: 131.111.8.97

Vashkoda> I just wish I could find the damn film somewhere over here. It says that it's out now. Reviews have been done, all of them great, but I have not found a SINGLE cinema that is actually showing it! The worst thing is that it sounds like a fantastic film, yet all that is being shown are really poor films that only got 2-3 stars. :(
silverbolt
Sunday, October 19, 2003 07:01:53 AM
IP: 81.135.58.33

btw, when I mentioned "Spirited Away", I was referring to the theatrical release. Ironically, I've seen more commercials for the DVD than I ever did for the actual movie. I guess winning an Oscar kind of forced Disney to realize they had something worth promoting.
Vashkoda
Sunday, October 19, 2003 02:28:16 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

We--the online fandom--represent only a small fraction of the consumer community. We can hoard all the copies we get our hands on, but in the end, how well this DVD does will all depend on the advertising it gets. If Disney keeps it hushed up like they did "Spirited Away", then no matter how well acclaimed Gargoyles is, it won't sell. You would think that the selling point would be the quality of the series, and in that sense, Gargoyles has nothing to worry about. Realistically though.... Well, let's just hope that Disney makes an effort to sell this DVD, and isn't just releasing it for the sake of putting it out there.
Vashkoda
Sunday, October 19, 2003 02:25:51 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

(CORRECTION)

When Snow White came out on DVD, it sold 1.2 MILLION copies in the first day. Eisner saw the figures the next day and went "Wow."

Now obiviously 1.2 million GARGOYLES DVDS will NOT sell on the first day, HOWEVER, if we buy A TON of them (I am going to buy two or three) WE CAN MAKE HEADS TURN.

That is all I will say~

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, October 19, 2003 01:15:51 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Hey.

When Snow White came out on DVD, it sold 1.2 MILLION copies in the first day. Eisner saw the figures the next day and went "Wow."

Now obiviously 1.2 million GARGOYLES DVDS will sell on the first day, HOWEVER, if we buy A TON of them (I am going to buy two or three) WE CAN MAKE HEADS TURN.

That is all I will say~

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, October 19, 2003 01:15:10 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

I was watching the world series, and they ran ads for the new Timeline movie. The last clip of one of the trailers was a castle burning. It looked so much like the intro of Gargoyles, I figured I should post about it.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, October 19, 2003 12:19:47 AM
IP: 66.119.34.39

Greg B:Like how you think
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 18, 2003 11:55:51 PM
IP: 12.94.47.214

MATT - I can't find the place now where he said it, but somewhere in "Ask Greg" (I searched the Timedancer archive, but may not have done so hard enough) Greg said that Brooklyn would have had some "dinosaur action" during his timedancing. Sorry that I wasn't able to be more specific than that.

Re the earlier discussion about fanfic getting invalidated by further developments in a television series: I discovered a case of that just this morning, though not a "Gargoyles" one. Earlier this year, I wrote an "X-Men: Evolution" fanfic that was essentially "how the Lord of the Rings would have gone if the X-Men had played the roles". I cast Apocalypse as Sauron (he was so perfect for the role that I never even considered anybody else for the part); then when I needed to cast somebody for the Nazgul, I chose the Horsemen of Apocalypse even though they hadn't yet shown up in the cartoon, simply because - again, they were just so logical that I never even considered anybody else. And I did them (whenever the figures beneath the robes were revealed) as the ones in the comics (I consulted the references on the comics for them).

Then this morning's episode of "X-Men: Evolution" brought the Horsemen into the series - and they were:

* SPOILERS FOLLOW *

Professor Xavier, Storm, Magneto, and Mystique, all of whom had been captured and brainwashed by Apocalypse into serving him. Which completely contradicted my more comics-take on the Horsemen in the fanfic (especially since the four above characters had already been cast in other roles in the parody: Xavier as Gandalf, Storm as Galadriel, Magneto as Saruman, and Mystique as - well, her scene hasn't been written yet and I don't want to give anything away).

* SPOILERS END *

But I didn't feel bothered by it at all (it probably helped that it was a "what-if" story and not actually existing in the same continuity as that of the cartoon). So I doubt that future "Gargoyles" episodes that contradicted fanfic stories should worry the fanfic writers that much.

(I came across one very early Gargoyles fanfic on the Internet that obviously was written before "City of Stone" came out; in it, Demona dies and it isn't via Macbeth. She's pursuing Goliath at an action movie set, trying to kill him, and he winds up having to maneuver her into an explosion as the only means of saving himself from her, in a life-or-death situation. He still feels very grieved about having to do it. Since there was not even a hint as to her link with Macbeth, I suspect that the story was done before "City of Stone" aired.

For that matter, I also recall an "Avalon Mists" fanfic that did an alternate "homecoming for Goliath" from the Avalon World Tour - here he, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx get back from Avalon to New York, but instead of getting involved with Oberon attempting to kidnap Alexander, they have a run-in with Loki - presumably the Norse trickster god - and a couple of *very* familiar FBI agents who have a history of investigating unusual cases....)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 18, 2003 09:05:55 PM
IP: 63.186.0.184

::Reads all comments::

Okay, reality time. "Gargoyles" will come back if Disney thinks the series would end up making them a profit. Same goes for any spin-off.

TODD> There is no chance in hell of Disney saying "the series concluded with TGC, it has an end" being any reason at all for Disney to not ressurect the series. Like I said, if they think there is profit to be made, they will.

So, everyone remember. It is the Almighty Dollar that will or won't bring the series back. Do your part and buy up the DVD sets when they come out next year.

Greg Bishansky
Saturday, October 18, 2003 07:19:36 PM
IP: 216.179.3.129

::looks at all the post about how "Gargoyles" will never come back::
Umm.. isn't that like... blasphemy.. in this fandom? :)
Heheh

Re: Todd: "kind of like the chaos theory about how the simple flapping of a butterfly's wings would eventually create a typhoon at sea."

Why thank you Dr. Malcom. :p Good points though.

Leo
Saturday, October 18, 2003 07:10:17 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

JJ Gregarius> when i said Star Trek, i was referring to the television series, not the movies. while i don't think the original Gargoyles series will ever return with new episodes on tv, i think its certaintly possible a direct to video movie could be made, and as i said before, spin offs are very possible too. so Gargoyles isn't dead, its just going to have to evolve to survive.

Todd> did you say that Greg hinted that Timedancing Brooklyn would visit the Mesozoic? as in the Mesozoic Era in Earth' natural history? i have no memory of that, could you point me to where he said that?

and for the record, i have nothing against the London Clan at all, but for a long time i didn't like their character designs, i just couldn't see how gargs could evolve to look the way they do, but i see numerous possibilities now, and so i am over it, and i like their designs. so, i meant no disrespect to the British people at all, nor their culture, coat of arms or mythology. sorry if i came across that way.

matt
Saturday, October 18, 2003 01:32:55 PM
IP: 207.230.48.121

Actually, as Aris Katsaris (I wonder where he is now) once pointed out, if it's possible for a time traveller to change history, if he hadn't been there all along (and the time travel rules in the Gargoyles Universe clearly indicate that the time traveller had been there from the beginning), then merely being in the past would change history because there'd be a solid body in a certain place where there was none before, which would alter air currents in subtle fashions at first but which would eventually make a difference (so that people who were supposed to be born never would be) - kind of like the chaos theory about how the simple flapping of a butterfly's wings would eventually create a typhoon at sea.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 18, 2003 07:18:09 AM
IP: 63.186.1.135

Todd: I can agrue around that. Just because time is fixed, doesn't mean it has to be static. I was envisioning something more dynamic; the end result is history not changing. The story is how it came about that history didn't change.

Silverbolt: I didn't really like the english gargs either. I thought they were pretty stupid. But know that I've seen all other clan episodes, plus read some info on the clans that didn't get info, I like them because of the differences I originally didn't like them because of.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 18, 2003 12:50:15 AM
IP: 66.119.33.135

Matt>> About Star Trek itself never coming back, ever heard of _Star_Trek:_the_Motion_Picture_ or _Star_Trek_II:_the_Wrath_of_Khan_, etc. ? ;-)
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 17, 2003 09:09:08 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

CKAYOTE - Since Greg Weisman has made it clear that changing history in the Gargoyles Universe is completely impossible, I doubt that we'd ever see such an event in "Timedancer".

I've never seen "Quantum Leap", so I can't comment on its possible similarities to "Timedancer". I'd find "Timedancer" more appealing anyway, since Brooklyn has (from the evidence) pretty much free range over the time-stream, visiting 10th century Scotland, feudal Japan, and the 22nd century among other places (Greg's hinted that we'd have gotten visits to ancient Rome under Caesar Augustus for the humility spell and the Mesozoic). One thing that I heard about "Quantum Leap" (which no doubt discouraged me from watching it) was that the protagonist would be restricted in his time leaps to only the past few decades. I prefer time travel series where you get to do some real traveling into the past (such as ancient and medieval history), and the evidence is that Brooklyn would have gotten to do that.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 17, 2003 06:56:26 PM
IP: 63.186.0.168

Matt> - first off, the English gargoyles. for years i didn't like them, i mean physically. they seemed so different from the other gargs around the world and they looked like birds, lions and horses.that really irked me, but i've gotten over it.

Hey that's our British seal you're insulting! ;P

and frankly, they are now my favorite gargoyle race to draw.

Cuz they're pretty just like us Brits ;)

- when the English thugs surround Elisa i think how rascist they must be against her. kinda feel sorry for them...

I went down to London between Monday to Wensdays and I didn't see anyone that looked like that kind of thug (The only one's I saw were wearing football shirts. (but then again in that ep they DID look like they came from the 70's) And I got to see Stacy Ulmens unmade bed *sarcastic whoopdee doo* and a great big tiger shark in fumaldahyde *sp?* Damian Hurst really was creepy! There's nothing quite like walking into a room covered in cow's blood surrounded by severed cows heads with some of their skin cut off and razer blades stuck into their eyes to make a guy feel sick (and it was supposed to represent the last meal of christ!) But the small room with dead flies stuck onto 12 canvas and covered in black paint really got my goat, the smell was AWFUL!
- i like how comfortable Leo and Una are around humans. so used to them. its certaintly new to not see humans running away in fear of gargs.

Because at the beginning the humans thought they wore masks and as for the next time... I guess seeing as how it was done saving that guy I guess they though the gargs were the good guys.

- good touch when Goliath transports into the 1940 sky and falls cuz he was standing up. kinda like having the rug pulle dout from under you.

classic :)

Todd> One late "M.I.A." thought that I had. I've sometimes thought that it was a good thing that Goliath and Co. didn't visit Trafalgar Square while they were in London. Just think of how Bronx would have responded to all those pigeons there!

I went down there to have a look see and I only saw a handful of Pigeons there, I guess they were off pooping on something else for a change. (Oh yes and every Taxi driver I met was no where nearly as friendly as the one from that ep! annnnd there was no fog whatsoever ;)

*lol* I also went to see David Blaine and his 44 days without food stunt, (Nutter!) People got so hyped up when he waved "Ooh look he's waving! David! David! We love you David!" Kinda stupid if you ask me. Though I laughed when I noticed that a load of stalls had set themselves up next to him. (ie a ham burger stall, an ice cream stall AND a fortune teller' stall!) though the real kick in the teeth were the americans *puts his hands over his eyes* If I hear "Oh my god!" one more time I swear I'm gonna scream! (Same with Starbucks! You couldn't go round a corner without seeing one!) And I'll remember never to answer a question like the one I got when i went down there.

I was standing on Tower Bridge looking at the box david was in and an american girl stands next to me and asks "How does Blaine go to the toilet?"
I replied "Well it's not like he does it in a nappy."
She just looks at me blankly "A what?"
It took me a while of trying to explain before I realised I should have said diaper. and then she goes. "Ohhh! I get it. What a strange language you guys have got!" Oooh I REALLY got peed with that (Where the heck did she think she was? Paris???)It's British lady!

*sighs happily* Still that trip got me closer to my new arty friends (even though one's a christian nut and another is a communist loving 'wants the British Empire to cover the globe again' nutball!) They really are good for a laugh ^_^ Especially when we saw that cherry picker trying to help that jumper in Picadilly Square. (the guy didn't jump but it was fun to watch.) :D

Silverbolt
Friday, October 17, 2003 06:38:47 PM
IP: 213.122.233.138

Changing the past: I think it would make for good story if Brooklyn COULD change the past, but his changes always make things worse, and he has to change things so he never made those changes. And in the end, the normal timeline happens because engineered it to be that way, because all the other alternitives were worse.

Baseball: I imagine Hudson following basseball from his TV set.

Matt: I couldn't agree with you more.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 17, 2003 12:37:38 PM
IP: 132.170.34.10

Star Trek> numerous people have emntioned Star Trek being brought back, but Star Trek was not brought back, a spinoff was. when Star Trek was resurrected in the form of The Next Generation we did not have Kirk in the Captain's chair or Scotty in the Engine Room, we had a new cast set in the same universe with only occasional cameos from the original series cast members.
this is most likely what would have to happen with Gargoyles. after so many years, if you want to make a series that will appeal to new and old viewers it has to be a spinoff. i love the characters from the original series alot too, and would love to see that series return, but lets be realistic. its not gonna happen. spinoffs are the furture of Gargoyles on television.

matt
Friday, October 17, 2003 09:20:00 AM
IP: 207.230.48.41

One late "M.I.A." thought that I had. I've sometimes thought that it was a good thing that Goliath and Co. didn't visit Trafalgar Square while they were in London. Just think of how Bronx would have responded to all those pigeons there!

(For that matter, it's a good thing that they didn't get into trouble by bringing Bronx into the United Kingdom in defiance of British quarantine laws.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 17, 2003 08:18:55 AM
IP: 63.186.0.18

........................Go Yankees. Do the Gargoyles follow baseball? Being from New York and all, they might have been to a couple of games.

Vin

castle0909
Friday, October 17, 2003 12:30:36 AM
IP: 152.163.252.100

Rac>>
There are a lot of subtle differences between the two: Sam Beckett can change the past, Sam knows what happend due to Al, etc., Sam can only time travel within his lifetime (and IIRC Al's),etc.

Still, the basic concept's the similar. Hero bounces around space/time finding people to help.

As I implied, I think the similarites are minor enough not to hurt (esp. after all these year!) and will in fact help network people make the decision to air the show.

JJ Gregrius
Orlando, FL
Friday, October 17, 2003 12:23:52 AM
IP: 65.247.200.135

JJ:

From what I remember, Quantum Leap always change the past, future, whatever, in every episode. Brooklyn may be bouncing around in time but he can't change anything that has already been set.

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Friday, October 17, 2003 12:02:42 AM
IP: 24.194.35.77

Speaking of Invader Zim, the show still has merchandise at Hot Topic and an independent toy company's looking into action figures. I know there's some Disney license with Hot Topic, because I've seen Tinker Bell tees there...
Boba Fett
Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:49:15 PM
IP: 64.12.96.45

Sahyinepu: Invader ZIM is the best thing since... Futurama, which was the best thing since... Gargoyles.

I do agree that Gargoyles was a little 'adult', but I think that is because of its complexity. I mean that rather than being mature in content, it had a mature style and format. That's really why it had and still has such appeal.

And to that extent, I do think a new show of any type should be adult-oriented, but still friendly enough for younger audiences. Sex and other stuff should be dealt with, but with some subtlty. IE Gargoyles should not be on FOX.

And I really don't think a long backstory would be prohibitive for spin-offs. Gargoyles had quite a extensive backstory, which was successfully spread out into 2 seasons' worth of flashbacks.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 16, 2003 10:50:21 PM
IP: 132.170.34.10

Todd>> I hear a lot about "moving on." The thing is, I have grown somewhat attached to the main characters. Goliath, Brooklyn, Demona, Xanatos, and the rest have taken roost in my mind. They tell me that they are from an epic, and they cry for their story to be heard.

When I add to that all of my new online companions who share my passion for these people, I find I have a hard time letting go.

_Star_Trek_ came back to life. _Tron_ is coming back as we speak. While both franchises were memorable in their original incarnations, neither were mega-hits.

Let me repeat: Disney *is* resurrecting their classic '80s science/fantasy.
Why shouldn't Disney resurrect their classic '90s science/fantasy?

Spinoffs>> How much backstory does _TimeDancer_ really need, anyway? Why don't I summarize the premise:

Brookyn, a gargoyle formerly hiding out with friends in Manhattan, has become "unstuck in time." (to quote Kurt Vonnegut) A magical device shunts him from time to time, place to place. As he "dances" in and out of a plethora of struggles, meeting new friends -- and enemies -- Brooklyn must fight to maintain his gargoylean honor...and his sanity. These are his stories.

The only real problem I see is that _TimeDancer_ could be perceived as a remake of _Quantum_Leap_. Given the nature of Hollywood, though, that could be an advantage.... _Star_Trek_ = _Voyage_to_the_Bottom_of_the_Sea_ in Outer Space, anyone?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 16, 2003 09:25:02 PM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Rac- I think that that is why Gargs was so unusual. It had so much that geared it more towards adult sci.fi. In the end, the show did not fail, but rather perhaps they should have realized it's more adult appeal and geared it more towards that. Ultimately, Disney just may not get that, which is their fault, and no one else's.

Invader Zim is definatley good, as is Red Dwarf...but Red Dwarf is not animated...funny though.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Thursday, October 16, 2003 09:10:10 PM
IP: 64.221.8.52

It's not so surprising that "The New Olympians" feels like the most independent of all the projected spin-offs; remember, the idea was conceived before "Gargoyles" was ever made. And the audience could be introduced to the New Olympians through Terry's eyes, discovering them even as he does.

I still suspect that the biggest obstacle "Dark Ages" would face would be the medieval setting; conventional wisdom would argue that audiences wouldn't go for a series set exclusively in 10th century Scotland. (Of course, that's what would attract me to it most.)

If Greg Weisman can't interest Disney in making "Pendragon", I hope that he could interest somebody in making another animated series involving King Arthur (one set in a different continuity, of course). I still want to see a good animated Arthurian series to make up for the dreadful "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice".

(Of course, one other reason why I'd like to see "Pendragon" would be the fact that it's the cycle that would be most likely to focus on Duval and his goals. I still want to know more about him - in particular, how he reconciles his goal of "making things right" with such activities of the Illuminati as becoming organized crime's silent partner, running the Hotel Cabal, and especially funding the Quarrymen).

I doubt that the Rory and Molly spin-off would ever get made, but it would be interesting to see how Greg would rehandle the Rory/Cuchulain business to make it more distinct from Marvel Comics' Thor. (The similarity between Rory/Cuchulain and Donald Blake/Thor struck me as strong enough that I even put in a little allusion to it in an episode of TGS: Pendragon that I wrote.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 16, 2003 07:05:49 PM
IP: 63.186.1.113

The problem is many shows seem to be copies of each other through monster/card collecting, poorly remade shows that are just there to sell merchandise, or the sometimes average show. Haven't been able to Saturday morning cartoons for a while so I don't know what's current. Most of the shows' characters don't have personalities beyond a flat character (one or two strictly defined attributes) and the "morals" are in the form of taking a hammer and pounding the point home over trivial matters. I don't care about today's characters/cartoons because there is nothing to care about. And no one seems willing to try something really new because all the businesses want to make lots of money. Maybe if enough people demanded something new, it could change. Of course, this is the same country that can't take a few minutes to vote for anything political. Sorry for the semi-rant...

On a completely unrelated note, my friend introduced me into Invader Zim. Hilarious. I recommend it to everyone.

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Thursday, October 16, 2003 02:26:20 PM
IP: 128.113.171.51


Speaking as a fan fiction writer, I would be DELIGHTED to see any or all of my ideas contradicted by a "Gargoyles" revival or spin-off. No amount, kind, or quality of prose I can write could ever match (let alone outweigh) Greg Weisman sharing more of his own great stories with us.

Ellen
Chicago
Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:28:48 AM
IP: 64.12.96.45

Matt, actually, I think the spin-off that takes the least background to "get" would be New Olympians, since it's... tangentally set in the Gargs universe, and centers on characters who have, at most, one episode of background. Conversely, it's also the one I'm least interested in, probably for the same reasons.

All the spin-offs have their own difficulties. Dark Ages might actually work better for new fans than for us. New fans wouldn't know that everybody on screen with the exception of the Manhattan 7 are all Dead Garg Walking.

TimeDancer and Bad Guys are wedded too tight to the Gargs universe, and thus, I think, require too much filling in of new fans.

2198 probably has the best chance, after NO's, since it's far enough removed from the regular Gargs continuity (except for visits from TD Brooklyn and Demona/MacBeth) for new fans to just grab it as a new sci-fi series and run with it. (Although, I worry that clueless newbies would pounce on the idea that the gargs are "the friendly aliens" or somesuch)

Personally, I'm perverse enough to root for the other spin-off, the Rory/Molly one that Greg only passingly considdered. ;)

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:07:57 AM
IP: 66.139.49.253

we also have to consider that a whole new generation of fans would be watching the show if it returned and they would have no memory of all thats happened so far.

obviously, there are a plethora of reasons that Gargoyles would not work, and those reasons have very little to do with fanfic. i think the best we can hope for (and the only thing we should hope for) is a spinoff. Gargoyles, sadly and unfortunatly, is dead, but that universe is too full of stories. what we need is a spinoff that requires no background info to know. Dark Ages seems ideal.

we'll just have to wait and see...

matt
Thursday, October 16, 2003 08:48:45 AM
IP: 207.230.48.90

I think that the Disney Afternoon being no more is one of the leading obstacles to "Gargoyles" returning, at least, in anything close to its original form.

Also, I think that Disney would take the attitude that the series is over (while Greg Weisman doesn't view the Goliath Chronicles as canon, I suspect that the higher-ups do) and that they'd rather come up with new ideas than resurrect old ones (well, admittedly, these are the same people who do a lot of direct-to-video sequels to their animated movies). And maybe they feel a little embarrassed about "Gargoyles", because its style is so different from "conventional Disney" (as in, no cute little fluffy animals) and see it as a time when they "strayed" from their path.

Of course, as time goes on, one gets used to the series being over and moves on. I'm no longer certain that I want "Gargoyles" to return (for reasons that have nothing to do with fanfic). What I would like, however, would be to see another series in the same genre (not necessarily in the same universe, however). But it doesn't seem likely these days.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 16, 2003 07:23:47 AM
IP: 63.186.1.242

The thing is- what ff writer doesn't want to see their ideas up there on the show one day? My fanfics tend to be weird, crossover-y and hardly tv material but I would be thrilled if the source material never contradicted some of the pairings I write or actually depicted them. But that is the frustration of a slasher. :(
Boba Fett
Thursday, October 16, 2003 02:50:56 AM
IP: 205.188.209.40

Fan-fic being obliterated:
1) How is this different from making fan-fic while a series is continuing?
2) Star Trek was in this situation in the '70s, I believe. Heck, IIRC, fan-fiction first truly came to life amongst the Trekkers of that time.
3) Even the spinoffs would step on the toes of fan-fic writers. Not much help there.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 16, 2003 02:26:36 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Correction: by being very lame, I mean the fanfic-ers being 'annpyed'/upset,etc.

Just wanted to make sure no one got the wrong idea....

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:58:24 AM
IP: 132.170.38.232

I was thinking on that same train of thought the other day...
Yes, I do think people would be, I'll say 'annoyed', by their fanfic being obsoleted, and yes, it would be very lame. But I think all us fanfic writers are kind of lame to begin with.

But assuming the Disney people go about it right (bring in Greg, decent animation, people who know what they're doing, etc.), I don't think we'd be dissappointed. And we would eventually get over it, or change our fanfic to reflect the new show.

That aside, I don't think Gargoyles will come back as the original show, not for reasons of plot points, time gaps, current events, etc. but because of logistics. The voice actors are doing other work, Disney is liquidating is 2D animation, when would they run it (they don't have a 'Disney Afternoon' type time block anymore), that kinda stuff.

I think 'bringing it back' would be pulling a Star Trek on us, and developing one of the spin-offs. 2198: Gargoyles The Next Generation. That kinda thing.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL, US
Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:56:20 AM
IP: 132.170.38.232

[thats another reason i wouldn't want Gargoyles returned. it would bother people's fanfic,]
What do you mean, "bother it" ? You mean make them obselete? hardly. If people weren't interested in having their own versions of what happened, no fic would be written at all. There is plenty wonderful fic out there that does not follow the "master plan". Even the ones that aim to stick to the posted plans as diligently as possible will have some deviation; there is no way they can predict every detail.
And if they could, it wouldn't be fan-fic, just episode synopsis.

[ and its hard to make a continuity over ten years in the past,]
They would be picking up right after "The Journey", not skipping ten years worth of Plot.

[ plus theres things like Sept 11,]
...which may not have happened in the master plan gargoyles universe. and even if it did, I don't see how it would interfere with the ability to set stories in that 'verse.
it is just another element that would have to be dealt with.

[ and what about the Goliath Chronicles,]
They'd all be ignored except for "the journey."

[plus i don't think Disney is likely to give a cancelled series another shot...]
Yes, they'd rather sh!!t out sequels to classic movies that are decades old that in no way need sequels, or make visual stunning but insensible/boring as all heck 3-D films.
Maybe they will wise up.

Lynati
Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:12:30 AM
IP: 66.140.85.68

about fanfics and Gargoyles...I think the argument about the series returning and possibly being in conflict with individuals fanfics is a bit lame. Are you people saying that you cannot even read someone else's fanfic and just acknowledge that what they think is different from what you think? After all, isn't what Greg Weisman, or any other writer, just giving their own spin on things? Which one is more valid is a bit pointless, yes? Isn't one idea just as valid as any other? And ultimately, isn't the wish to see the show, be it a continuation of the original Gargoyles, or spin-offs worth the FACT that it ain't going to be anything like what any of us could come up with? Don't misinterpret me as being cruel or anything. There are things about the series as is that if I were writing it I would have done differently. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it as it is, and in truth, even more so. After all, it takes me places I would not have gone, and that is part of the fun, right?

I think that if anything to do with Gargoyles does come back, people shouldn't complain one bit. Unfortunately they undoubtedly will..they sure did with Transformers. Bob Skirr(think that was the name of the guy who did Beast Machines) even recieved death threats, to the point he no longer had any good reason to go to any cons as a guest. That sort of crap had a good chance of destroying Transformers...luckely the sale of toys kept it going..the immature actions of the fans surely did not.

Just something to keep in mind.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:53:38 PM
IP: 64.221.11.23

thats another reason i wouldn't want Gargoyles returned. it would bother people's fanfic, and its hard to make a continuity over ten years in the past, plus theres things like Sept 11, and what about the Goliath Chronicles, plus i don't think Disney is likely to give a cancelled series another shot...
another series is another story. tahts why i'm all about the spinoffs. the spinoffs are a clean slate and don't suffer from all the above mentioned problems.
sorry, had to write this in one minute!

matt
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 06:50:32 PM
IP: 207.230.48.26

I believe that the question over whether the Quarrymen are evil or not depends on which version of them you're using. If you go for the interpretation of them in "The Journey", I'd describe them (except for Castaway, Banquo, and Fleance, of course) as more misguided, frightened people led astray by their own fears.

On the other hand, the Quarrymen of the rest of the Goliath Chronicles I would definitely describe as evil. They have lost their main justification for warring on the gargoyles thanks to the fact that they know that the gargoyles protect the innocent, and are willing to repeatedly and deliberately endanger their own fellow humans just to get at the gargoyles (whom they already realize are not a threat). I'd definitely consider that evil.

(For that matter, while I consider the Hunters of "Hunter's Moon" as more tragic than evil - people led astray by an increasingly pointless feud - the original Hunters, Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore, I would likewise consider evil; their actions were based on their greed for power rather than their fear of gargoyles.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 06:43:59 PM
IP: 171.75.194.118

Hi! I've been just lurking lately, but I had a random thought that I wanted to share. (RAC's last comment kind of led me to this thought). Anyway...the random thought:

Ok, I know that we all loved/love the show (obviously or we wouldn't be in this comment room). I also know that there's always been a lot of talk about bringing the show back (among the fans that is) and everyone says they'd watch the show (if it came back). However, my thought is this, how many of us would really want the show (not a spin-off, that's a different story) Gargoyles back on the air with new episodes? I find myself wondering, since there are a HUGE number of fans who have written fanfic (posted on a website or not) who have, since their beloved show ended, created their own views on what would've happened next. There are a lot of people who have done this and posted lots of stories on the internet, somewhere, and probably more who just keep their ideas to themselves. If the show came back on the continuation of the storyline and what happens next would be different from the ideas of a given fanfic author (even those who stuck to the canon plan as best they could). For many people (myself included) their "worlds" or continuations that they've come up with is firmly set in their minds and it would be hard to convince themselves that their universe, their view, while imaginative, is wrong. It's not what happens next. So, I just wonder if maybe, just maybe Gargoyles is something that's over and shouldn't be resurrected. (Now, the spin-offs are different, since they don't "interfere" with the Gargoyle's timeline so much). I mean I'm sure people would watch it (I would), but I don't know just how truly happy they's be that it had been brought back.
Whew! That was a LONG post. So, that's my random thought that I felt like sharing.
Chao:)

Enigma
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 04:46:14 PM
IP: 24.118.65.70

i just watched "MIA" last night. i wrote down some notes:

- first off, the English gargoyles. for years i didn't like them, i mean physically. they seemed so different from the other gargs around the world and they looked like birds, lions and horses. that really irked me, but i've gotten over it. i started to think of different reasons they look like they do, and Greg had some theories as well, so i'm ok wth it now, and frankly, they are now my favorite gargoyle race to draw. i find them really neat. i did notice that they are the only gargs we've seen whose eyes seem to be tinted when NOT glowing. Leo and Griff's eyes were tinted tannish-gold and Una's were more light blue. interesting.
- it made me sad for years that there were only three gargoyles in the English Clan. i remember thinking to myself that they were another clan that was dying out, just like the Manhattan Clan. much to my surprise and excitement, i discovered the fandom online and soon discovered a whole Clan was never seen on the show! and they are one of the more populated Clans at that! very cool.
- it always amazes me how good a likeness of Griff and Goliath those statues are... guess Leo, Una and the pilots had excellant memories.
- when the English thugs surround Elisa i think how rascist they must be against her. kinda feel sorry for them... esspecially when the gargs kick their @$$! i LOVE Angela's line, "Surely we were sent her for something more important than this..." she gets that from her mother i think,
- i remember thinking that it was weird that Angela instantly recognized Leo and Una as gargoyles. esspecially because they were robed and she had recently been tricked by Raven. plus Leo and Una look so different than most gargoyles. maybe she smelled them or something. or maybe she was somehow familiar with the idea of what English gargs looked like.
- i like how comfortable Leo and Una are around humans. so used to them. its certaintly new to not see humans running away in fear of gargs.
- good touch when Goliath transports into the 1940 sky and falls cuz he was standing up. kinda like having the rug pulle dout from under you.
- i instantly love Griff when he saves Goliath from a propellor blade and says, "You know old boy, that could've been a bit nasty!" love his accent, hes great, i love Griff!
- when Griff honors Leo and Una for "minding the store" i think about how Hudson and Bronx are always left behind and how that is honorable too.
- when Goliath and Griff take on the pilots its great animation, it reminds me of the Trio taking on the Pack's helicopter. i like these sky battles, i guess.
- every time i see Goliath's wing get shot, i cringe. "OW!" thats gotta hurt, i mean theres a hole in his wing!
- destiny really had it out for Griff, one thing after another tried to kill him. i remember i was a little afraid that Goliath would be unable to prevent his death and hjave to go back to tell Leo and Una how Griff had died. fortunatly, Goliath was smart enough to get out of the warzone and back to the 90s.
- and back in the 90s theres a reunion, but a weird and awkward one. talk about your love triangles. Una is stuck between the gargoyle she loved in her youth and has been missing for so many years and the gargoyle who has been her companion for all those years! it doesn't help that Griff and Leo are such good friends either. its an ugly situation, i think and i totally understand why Griff would want to stay with King Arthur, but thats a story for another day...

The Coma Man> i wouldn't call the Hunters or the Quarrymen evil. both are bad and have their problems, but neither is evil. the Hunters were blinded by rage, hatred and vengeance. Hunters Moon showed that they are good people deep down, and showed they can change for good or bad. the Quarrymen are worse, but still not evil. they are blinded by fear, ignorance, and the desire to belong. they are choosing a bad path, but you can't call them evil based on one bad mistake in their lives.

matt
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:04:02 PM
IP: 207.230.48.68

CKayote -- THX. :)

So, M.I.A. again...

Somehow a strange EP... only saw it two times, the first time only parts...

I thought Griff was a cool character.

The parachutes... Well, or a "kid-show", an EP about WW2 is QUITE unusual, so it just works fine.

Back to our beloved Hunters:
Wonder if anybody else thought so: the Hunters reminded me of typical Comic-book-villains! And that's another verry typical GARG's thing: Using comic-book characters in a Disney series is rather unusual.

Good question: Who was more evil, or who's "better"? Hunters or Quarrymen?

I'd go with Hunters!

The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:03:49 AM
IP: 217.87.15.208

Curiosity got the best of me and I wanted to see how many links actually worked in http://gargoyles-fans.org . That's where I usually go before I check here. So I'm going through the links, many were broken, when I come across a Gargoyles petition. Expecting it to be broken, I was surprised that it led somewhere. The link is near the bottom of the gargoyles-fans website in the links section or use http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/gargoyle/181/index.html

I know the series has been cancelled for awhile and the petition would need a ton of signatures but it has to start somewhere...

Sorry, don't know how to hyperlink it...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:05:48 PM
IP: 24.194.45.194

BLAISE> Good point.

I rather like Greg's comment on "M.I.A" about griff looking too "Foghorn-Leghorn". That made me laugh.

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, October 14, 2003 04:15:10 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

BLAISE - I think that Castaway's hypocrisy was unconscious; the man genuinely believes that gargoyles are evil monsters, remember. He has to; what's left of his sanity depends upon that belief.

I still think that it's a pity that the Goliath Chronicles discarded most of the "ordinary person" element from the Quarrymen. One of the biggest problems with making the Quarrymen (or almost all of them) thugs, mercenaries, and violent criminals is that it weakens the core element of "humans fear what they don't understand, and attempt to destroy what they fear". Since Goliath and his clan are "crime-fighters", the bulk of the Quarrymen in the Goliath Chronicles would be opposing them even if the gargoyles weren't strange and menacing in appearance, for the simple reason that the gargoyles are protecting the innocent citizenry from them; their attitude towards the clan would be no more xenophobia than, say, the criminals of Gotham City's attitude towards Batman. Take away all the talk about "they're monsters" and the Quarrymen's campaign against the gargoyles would continue. (Though at least it would explain why the Quarrymen go on trying to kill the gargoyles even though they know that they protect the innocent - one of the biggest nits in the Goliath Chronicles.)

And thanks for your own review of "M.I.A."; I quite enjoyed it. One of the parts of Greg's ramble that most amused me was his describing Griff as a "Robin Hood of the 1940's". Since Robin Hood is one of Britain's leading legendary heroes alongside King Arthur, that struck me as appropriate; Griff's team-up with Arthur in "Pendragon" now becomes as close as we're likely to ever get in the Gargoyles Universe to a team-up between King Arthur and Robin Hood. (I believe that Robin Hood in the Gargoyles Universe is long since dead.)

(As a side-note, T. H. White did manage a team-up between Arthur - as a boy - and Robin Hood in "The Sword in the Stone", one of the elements that got dropped from the Disney movie version. In it they join forces to rescue a few friends, including Friar Tuck, from Morgan le Fay's castle, and even brought in the bit about faerie-folk being vulnerable to iron.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 14, 2003 07:39:50 AM
IP: 171.75.194.51

****Blaise rides into the Room on a fur-covered burro.**** Not a terribly flashy entrance, I know, but I just watched "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" today (I was studying Walter Huston's acting). Good film.

BATTLE BEAST> This is in response to something you said *last week* about the ColdSteel robot having tendrils. Keep in mind that soul transfers "require voluntary participation," meaning that Puck "needed the evil one to be impressed enough to ASK" for the robot body. What better way to impress a jerk like that then the promise of power.

TODD> RE: Castaway's speech.
I noticed the first part (the "violence, racism, injustice" thing) the first time I saw the episode. It wasn't until someone pointed out the "parallel fears" on the net that I realized that part as well.
It kind of helps to underline the hypocrisy (intentional or not) of Castaway's demagogy (sp?). I really wish we could have seen his confrontation with Jason. May be a while, though.

M.I.A.> At last! The next ramble! I'm basically just going to post what I did in Ask Greg here. Maybe because I'm redundant, and maybe because...that's what I did for the DCV back in 2002.
Anyway, as soon as I saw Una and Leo I kind of figured them to be gargoyles--I don't know why, exactly, but it just seemed so obvious. I love the idea of the magic shop, too--I know it's the type of shop I'd like to visit.
While I'm talking about the London clan (or at least, the three that we've met), I just want to talk about their designs. Not just their physical designs mind you--their clothes and such as well. I'll admit, I didn't know much about "heraldic animals" at the time I saw this, so I didn't quite pick up that layer of it. I still liked it, though--helped make them unique, even from Raven's illusion clan. The feathered wings were also quite beautiful. Their tails, though, don't look like they would be as strong as those in the other clans we have seen. Griff's and Leo's maybe, but I doubt Una would be able to wrap her tail around someone's gun and jerk it from their grasp. Their attire is similarly unique, with them wearing quasi-medieval armor and dresses (I especially like Una's dress; very elegant). Griff's is different, yet still evocative of armor, which IMO makes him seem more "modern" than his cohorts. Leo and Una's cloaks are nice, and color-coded as well--green for Leo, violet for Una. Other small things: Leo's eyes seem to have a yellowish tint while Una's have a blue one, Leo's mane is tied back in a pony tail (never noticed that before...). And, even after your ramble, Greg, I look at Griff and cannot see a bit of Foghorn Leghorn in him.
Okay, long digression. Anyway, seeing Leo and Una's coldness to the plight of the man from the street made me feel a little cold to them myself. Leo seems to be a bit more aware than Una is though. By that I mean, he's the one who looks out the window and says "There goes the neighborhood." This sort of thing leads me to believe that Leo's final "revelation" in ACT 3 is something that he's been pondering over for quite some time. Sure, he still doesn't do anything, but I can't help feeling there's something there.
The weary travelers arrive in London, and spot the memorial. I instantly recognized Goliath's statue and became intrigued, as for Griff's...I think I had some vague recollection of his portrait, but I didn't really dwell on it.
Elisa apologizes to the cabby for the "American money." It's a little touch, but I really like it.
Then the thugs show up. I think I've finally figured out the actors who did the voices of the three who talked:
Jeff Bennett--Baldy.
Neil Dickson--Red Mohawk.
Gregg Berger--Big Guy with Torn Green Shirt.
(I could be wrong, though...)
Anyway, the gargs show up and make short work of them (I especially love Angela's disdain over her foe). Leo and Una arrive on the scene, and Goliath (and this audience member) start to become confused. Elisa, noticing the growing crowd, suggests that everyone go inside the shop.
When it comes up that Goliath met the London clan in 1940, I remembered the "Previously on..." segment with Goliath saying he's going to make sure nobody uses the Gate again, and kind of figured out what would happen.
Maybe I really am cold, but I don't feel much sympathy towards Leo and Una at this point. Even in hindsight, I still feel cold. They don't even bother to listen to Goliath's story--I would have thought the mention of "being frozen in stone hibernation" would have at least piqued their curiosity in some way. Instead, they just feel like doling out punishment--even if it means shackling up an innocent third party in the dungeon for no other reason than their association with Goliath. I never noticed the parallel between Una and Demona before you mentioned it, Greg, but I definitely see it.
I didn't think Goliath's "inner monologue" was terribly awkward. I mean, Matt Bluestone, a supporting character, got pretty much a whole episode to do it. Who are we to begrudge the series lead just one line.
I like Griff's reaction to Goliath's "You saved my life--it was suppossed to work the other way around." I also like Goliath's tentative "Pleased to meet you" when he "first" meets Leo and Una.
Back on the London Clan designs again--I really liked how the artists aged them (or "youthened" them as the case may be). Lines on the face, the grey in Leo's hair. Also the voice actors did a good job (I especially liked Sarah Douglas).
I never heard the name of Douglas Bader before this episode. And even then I didn't know he was a real person (nor how exceptional he was) until I read about it in one of your responses to something. I'm glad you got the chance to meet someone like that (hell, you got to go to DISNEYLAND with someone like that--that's got to be an honor). Even in this ep, he was the one who stood out, and (knowing who he is now) it makes his dogfight with "the Skull" all the cooler.
Funny you should mention using the Goliath/Una/Leo/Griff scene in your voice seminars, Greg--I remember reading that scene in the one you held at the Gathering 2001. I was Goliath for one reading (very hard trying to follow in Keith David's footsteps), and Crispan Freeman was Griff. What a fun time!
I like how Goliath doesn't say a definite "Yes, let's fight" or "No, stay here" but just states a simple truth. He's trying to stay out of trouble, of course, but it also just seems, to me, like the most intelligent and even-handed thing to say. And in the next 55 years, Leo and Una apparantly twisted the whole darn thing around in their heads....
Leo expresses some doubt even at this point, asking if Griff thinks less of him and Una for not going out to fight. I like the arm clasp, too.
By this point I had definitely realized that Una and Griff were an item this far back. I also kind of guessed that during the interrum (sp?) she and Leo got together.
The Battle of Britain. I had never made the connection between the wee lad running with his sister, and the old cab driver in the present. Makes the scene even cooler now, though.
Nor, I must shamefacedly admit, did I single out the skull-and-crossbones plane ("the Skull" as I have already called him) as unique. I feel like an idiot now though--it just seems so obvious. Heck, even after the pilot's gone the PLANE continues to be a threat; the last thing Goliath and Griff have to escape. It's an old trick--you have a lot of similar enemies (planes, in this case) you give one a distinguishing (sp?) mark to set it apart and mark it as the "alpha enemy" (kind of like Stripe in "Gremlins.")
Speaking of gremlins, I kind of like the connection with the gargoyles (come to think of it, I always saw Lexington as being gremlin-like--greenish-brown with a prediliction for tinkering and all that). I also like that Bader notices them, and instead of being frightened, actually becomes a sort of ally.
The "no-dying" rule...I have to admit I get kind of sick of that sometimes. Several other animated shows I've seen (western animated) actually managed to have planes explode and no parachutes shoot out. Heck, at least they should have had "the Skull" be stuck in his plane. (And maybe I'm sadistic, but I would have liked a shot of his screaming face just before his plane crashed....)
Goliath's wound. Ouch. I still say that every time I see him get hit. He still manages to pull off some great ariel manuevers on that injured wing, though.
And talk about a tough time getting home. First they're nearly shot out of the sky by friendly fire, then a building nearly falls on them, then a truck nearly hits them (and rudely interrupts Goliath while he's speaking).
And finally Goliath realizes what we the audience already knew--that time is immutable--and to avoid the final danger ("the Skull's" plane) Goliath sends both he and Griff back to the future (pun intended). Pretty much what I expected would ultimately happen.
Leo and Una look in on their captives in the basement (the fact that Elisa and the rest are in chains lessened my respect for them another notch), and after Elisa figures out what Goliath's plan is, both of the London gargoyles pause. Una recovers and continues to rant and rail against Goliath, while Leo closes his eyes and realizes the truth. I love Leo's speech here. And how he admits that while protecting their home may have been "the right thing to do" it's still their own guilt they've been feeling. I find this scene even more fascinating with the revelation that Una is the leader of the London clan. A leader is a person, too, with all the foibles (even Goliath shows that from time to time).
Goliath and Griff show up and Griff experiences major culture shock. I love the punk playing the gameboy--he just walks right by these two huge, winged monsters and doesn't even notice. In fact, Griff is the one who nearly faints (into the path of an approaching car). I just love Goliath's "Let's not start that again." Keith David just delivers it so well.
The reunions commence. I already started warming up to Leo and Una after the cellar, but now it really is great to see the joy on their faces. Griff is also joyful, but it's easy to sense a bit of awkwardness as well.
Goliath tries to explain the time loop, and Elisa does the "smile, nod" thing and asks for the explanation just one more time. "And take it slow."
The thugs pester the "foreigner" again--it wasn't until now that I realized they were racists as well--and then find themselves reaquainted with the fact that there are people out there even more different from them. Leo and Una kick two of them away (and Una has HOOVES--triple OUCH!), and stand proudly...in front of a crowd of humans. I thought that was rather interesting. I especially like the shopkeeper (the guy in the apron). He has his arms folded almost as if in pride.

Okay, that's enough for one visit. Several, maybe. But when I have more things to say (and time in which to say them), I'll be back. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise's burro has somehow transformed into a wyvern. Blaise gives it a little kick, and the beast takes off through the window.****

Blaise
Monday, October 13, 2003 11:56:33 PM
IP: 209.178.191.142

Yes, a new ramble, on "M.I.A." Isn't it great?

Since I don't have a tape of "The Journey", I won't be doing a proper commentary on it (and I have none at all planned for the rest of the Goliath Chronicles), but I did want to discuss Castaway's recruitment speech a little (speech obtained courtesy of the transcript that Patrick Toman made for TGS), since it's a delightful one, full of ironies:

"I know that you are all reasonable people. But you do not live in a reasonable world. Violence, racism, injustice - you struggle with the world's problems and wind up feeling so alone. Now, something alien and horrible has entered your world. Are you afraid of this monster? Well, for once you are not alone. Are you afraid these creatures will attack you while you sleep? You are not alone in that fear. Are you afraid they will steal your children away? You are not alone. Do you believe these monsters must be stopped? You are not alone! Join us. Join the Quarrymen. When you wear our hoods, believe me, you are no longer alone! Take a hood. Take a hammer. You are Quarrymen now! Join us, and I promise you will never be alone again."

Now there are a lot of great bits in the speech. First Castaway tells his audience about how they struggle against "violence, racism, injustice" - and then recruits them for an organization that carries out all three. Then he plays upon the fears that they have that the gargoyles will attack them in their sleep and carry off their children. But gargoyles clearly also fear that humans will attack them in their sleep (and that's an even bigger threat, since a human has at least some hope of waking up when attacked, while a gargoyle in stone sleep is stuck in that state until sunset). And as for the "steal your children away", Demona clearly has that fear in her attitude about Princess Katharine taking the eggs away (as she makes clear in "The Reckoning"). But to top it all off, we have the repeated use of the word "alone". Given that Castaway is practically the human equivalent of Demona, I found that very appropriate.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, October 13, 2003 07:49:27 PM
IP: 171.75.194.8

Woo-hoo! Greg is rambling again:)

*Waits until everyone has read the M.I.A ramble...*

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, October 13, 2003 06:25:36 PM
IP: 24.195.8.74

CKayote> Thanks for the offer but as far as i know, a broadband connection to the mainland is still in the works.
I know there's been petitions going on for months, and I think they've had the go ahead to put in the link, I'm just not entirely dure how far along it is. For all I know, it could be here already.
Guess I should just keep my fingers crossed that they'll finally show it on toon disney some time in the near future.
(Hey, I can dream can't I?)
Just out of interest though - how large a file are we speaking about? My PC doesn't have a particularly large memory.

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, October 13, 2003 05:02:37 PM
IP: 213.122.183.102

Comma-Man: your english works fine (It's better than Pres. Bush's. Or mine). And english is all I speak.

Sheltie: I have hunter's moon as a computer file on my hardrive. If you have a broadband connection, I can email them to you if you want.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL, US
Monday, October 13, 2003 04:09:52 PM
IP: 132.170.38.232

Sorry...

Nickerous> The Autobot camp on the other side of the internet! Come on man! ^_^

Later~


Battle Beast
Happy Thanksgiving! , Canada
Monday, October 13, 2003 11:36:12 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Dang. Just missed.

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone! ^_^


Later~

Battle Beast
Happy Thanksgiving! , Canada
Monday, October 13, 2003 11:33:19 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

10th. Wow.
Siryn
Monday, October 13, 2003 11:23:42 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

9th.
goliath_994
Monday, October 13, 2003 10:33:00 AM
IP: 24.243.105.129

8th!
Not many trees in Shetland.
Will a tattie plant do?

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, October 13, 2003 10:16:05 AM
IP: 213.122.115.200

Sadly, I have no flag, so I will plant a tree, in the shape of a seven.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Monday, October 13, 2003 08:33:50 AM
IP: 65.120.100.29

*Graymonk rushes in waving a BIG gray flag with a wild boar on one side and a bison on the other.*

6TH!
Graymonk
Monday, October 13, 2003 06:53:50 AM
IP: 156.34.236.127

after some careful counting, i count four flags... so FIFTH!
matt
Monday, October 13, 2003 06:16:37 AM
IP: 207.230.48.52

*slaps head*
Sorry, you claimed the fourth spot, being the fourth poster, even though you made the fifth post.
I count well when I waiting to be able to sleep, no?
JJ Gregarius
Monday, October 13, 2003 03:32:43 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

So sorry, you actually claimed the *third* spot!
While you were the fourth post, you were only the third poster.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 13, 2003 03:31:05 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Puts an end to this flag nonsense and claims the fifth spot.
Jimmy
Monday, October 13, 2003 02:21:29 AM
IP: 199.74.79.167

Sees flags.
Plants two, one blue, one gold, bearing the emblems of the Tampa Bay Lightning and of the University of Central Florida Golden Knights respectively.
Again roars.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 13, 2003 01:45:16 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Hmm....is this new?


*plants 3 flags: The Autobot Logo, The Spider-man symbol, and the Carolina Panthers team flag.....GO PANTHERS!* ^_^

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, October 13, 2003 01:11:20 AM
IP: 66.220.76.72

Sees flag.
Roars.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 13, 2003 12:11:38 AM
IP: 65.244.170.168

Plants a flag.
Leo
Monday, October 13, 2003 12:00:23 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12