Comments for the week ending May 30, 2005

Index : Hide Images

Gantros>Yes, that was a neat little game :D I was always amazed with it, that it was done independantly and for what it was and the likely budget and software they had, it was done very well. I envy the maker of that game :D
Siren
Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:33:55 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Siren> wasn't there a game that allowed you to glide through Manhattan as a gargoyle. It was a homegrown game...(rummages through links)...Ah ha!

Gantros - [<--Gargoyles:Rebirth]
Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:21:40 PM
IP: 67.189.1.250

KJAY - Disney probably did the heavy-duty advertising on "Bambi" and not on "Gargoyles" because "Bambi" fits the "Disney stereotypes" (cute little furry animals, singing, etc.) and "Gargoyles" doesn't.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, May 29, 2005 06:55:19 PM
IP: 4.244.18.210

I have discusses the thought of having a REAL Gargoyles video game. I would think the best one would be a combination between the Spiderman 2 and X-Men Legends games.
Spiderman 2 allowed you to swing through the city streets of NY. This would be a PERFECT setting for several levels of Gargoyles to glide through the streets. People also reacted to you. Some were happy to see you and some now. The enviroment was very nice and interactive.

In X-Men Legends, you can play up to 4 different characters at any one time. The way Gargoyles is, the first level or more in 994 A.D. could be controlling just Goliath to get a feel of the game. Then when they come to 1994, it opens to control more of the gargoyles. Also X-Men's enviroment was extreemly interactive. You could manipulate just about everything from a potted plant, to a lamp post, to a trash can.

IMO, Gargoyles would make a fantastic game. Not just for Gargoyles fans, but fans of all those type of platform games. I really wish Disney would dip into Gargoyle to develop a game. As a fan of video games, I do believe it would do well. If only Disney would take the gamble. What a GREAT way to test the waters to bring the series or movie back. The budget for one game wouldn't be nearly as much as a movie or a series. It really would be nice if Disney would give it a try.
Siren
Sunday, May 29, 2005 06:15:12 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

SPAM-What's the point of something that is a waste of time and effort and that everyone hates with a passion
My cure is anti-SPAM and anti-spyware programs.
"Face me SPAM if you DARE!!!!"
The Gathering-Los Vegas is not too far from me, but the transmission in my truck just died and the money I've saved for the gathering is the same amount of money I need
to fix my truck... Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place...
Gargoyles DVD>is there talk of a Gargoyles DVD for season 2?
Why did Disney make something like this so hard to find? You can find everything esle Disney made on DVD so easily
(When they put Bambi on DVD they placed ads in every store, t.v. and billboard you can find), but they released
Gargoyles without a word.
Gargoyles video game>I wonder if anyone will release a Gargoyles game for any of the game system's (PS2, nintendo game cube, x-box ect)?

kjay - [tigonesskay@netzero.com]
fort bliss, tx, usa
Sunday, May 29, 2005 05:07:43 PM
IP: 70.23.201.199

I hate SPAMERS! every time I come over here just to do some checking I see this jurk trying to get us into some place I just do not like to head into.. Yo! SPAMER Guy go away!! This place is for the Gargoyles Fanners.. Geee I wish these Spamers go some other places other than here in the chat and comment rooms.. grrrrrr.. But I'm soo glad that Gorebash clean up this comment room.. :)
Demona May Stephens _ Night Stone Unlimited - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
The Insane One is still alive and kicking!
Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:46:37 AM
IP: 216.104.139.65

"Uh! Gorebaaash! You killed the Zombie Spamer Flanders!!!"

"The Spam was a Zombie?"

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, May 29, 2005 12:41:19 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99

"Uh! Gorebaaash! You killed the Zombie Spamer Flanders!!!"

"The Spam was a Zombie?"

That is all I will say.
Anonymous
Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:40:58 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99

Demonskrye - They used the storyboards. Pin-ups are reserved for mostly for direct to video and features.
<p>
TTFN
Castaway
Saturday, May 28, 2005 11:49:02 PM
IP: 209.179.216.103

Matt> Thanks for your help. Until I have anyone tell me different or I can prove otherwise myself, I'll assume it's from "Sanctuary" It seems like a reasonable guess, since a LOT of their cels seem to be from that particular episode.

Castaway> Thanks to you as well. I'm actually fairly knowledgable about the animation process and I was pretty much certain that the drawing was not an actual animation drawing. But I'm actual not certain how big it is and I didn't know if "Gargoyles" used the "pin it up on a bulletin board" method or the "use a xeroxed template with three panels per page" mathod for storyboards.

Thanks again to both of you.
Demonskrye
Saturday, May 28, 2005 11:27:32 PM
IP: 146.115.115.131

:(

I'm not at home this weekend and cannot finish up the spam blocking measures before probably Monday. I do have 'net access so I'll try and check in each night and delete the crap manually.

One thing I'd point out is the changing IP addresses. That leads me to believe this is an automated process using some zombie network. That gives me some hope.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Saturday, May 28, 2005 10:21:24 PM
IP: 71.243.52.94

Demonskrye, the drawing in question is considered a layout. When you look at storyboards there are uaually three panels per page. Each panel represents what type of action/pose happens during that scene. This drawing is a step in the process that is translated from the panel to animation paper (12 to 16 field or other size - sometimes a storyboard itself can be xeroxed up to the proper size if the panel is good enough). The red line around the characters represents how the action/pose will look on TV screen (the TV cut off). The red lines on the characters represents how/where the shadow color will be painted. This is just a step in the process that will go to an animator that will eventually animated the the final scene. This was not used as "final animation," (the final cleaned up animation drawing) this is only a step in the process.
Castaway, John Castaway
Saturday, May 28, 2005 08:02:36 PM
IP: 209.179.222.38

Please save the kittens (click my name)
Siren - [<--Spammer, Click My Name]
Saturday, May 28, 2005 02:17:37 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

*Douses his computer in Holy Water*

OUT DEMON SPIRITS OUT! I COMMAND YOU! BEGONE FROM THIS SERVER FOREVER MORE!

*Computer monitor twists around in a circle and screams "NOOOOOOOOOO!" till I mute the sound.*
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, May 28, 2005 12:37:54 PM
IP: 64.192.79.127

Does your mother know you do this?
Siren
Saturday, May 28, 2005 09:54:38 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

*Pours floor wax on to spam and begins cleaning*
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, May 28, 2005 04:30:57 AM
IP: 69.54.208.2

<random>Oh NOs! Hudson discovers Tivo!</random>
IRC Goliath
Saturday, May 28, 2005 01:56:03 AM
IP: 216.220.208.110

Demonskyre> i'm pretty sure that its from "Sanctuary". Goliath and Angela were argueing when the sun rose and woke up standing next to each other like that i think...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Saturday, May 28, 2005 12:24:52 AM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Also, does anyone have a guess as to where this drawing fits into the animation process? I don't think it's an animation drawing as i isn't clean or tight enough and Bronx is way off model. So I'm guessing it's either a storyboard or a layout drawing.
Demonskrye - [<---Drawing!]
Friday, May 27, 2005 11:57:42 PM
IP: 146.115.115.131

Well, I'd been thinking about buying a "Gargoyles" cel for a long time, but I could never find one that I really, really liked. So you can imagine I was really happy to see see Van Eaton's selection. It was a tough choice. (My boyfriend actually gave me his blessing to buy the $1750 one with the entire pre-"Avalon" Manhattan clan, but I couldn't bring myself to spend that much.) I finally settled on a cel with Goliath, Bronx, and Angela (click my name to see it) and a drawing from the same scene (next comment).

Now since I don't own tapes of Season 2, could someone please tell me what episode these are from? I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the world tour, since that thing Goliath's holding is probably the pole/oar for the skiff. But I can't really figure beyond that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Demonskrye - [<---Cel!]
Friday, May 27, 2005 11:55:19 PM
IP: 146.115.115.131

I am so jealous *eyes glow green*

But I am still taking donations *eyes turn big and roung, into pitiful puppy dog eyes and her bottom lip sticks out and quivers*


;)
Siren
Friday, May 27, 2005 09:40:35 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

well, all the spam is gone, thats a good thing...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Friday, May 27, 2005 08:57:30 PM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Oh man. There're some amazing cels for sale there. One in particular, I think it's the most expensive at $1750, is something that's definitely centerpiece wall-worthy.
http://vegalleries.com/Gargoyles/024-A2384+2386.jpg

And there're a bunch of others that have nice backgrounds and good character shots.

I guess I do technically have the money for something like this...but it's savings for school, shouldn't spend any of it. Not even on any of the cheaper $150 pieces.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Friday, May 27, 2005 08:34:31 PM
IP: 69.17.169.178

KAYLLE - Maybe the spammer has a personal grudge against Gargoyles fandom or Station 8.

Or maybe it's just an automatic spambot that is programmed to constantly bombard the room and there isn't a person directing it any more.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, May 27, 2005 06:35:22 PM
IP: 4.244.12.173

*cries* I want a cel :o(
I just don't have the $$$ to get one
Wingless
Friday, May 27, 2005 04:27:43 PM
IP: 70.28.12.78

I ended up buying these two animation cels...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/gregx/074-A2576.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/gregx/091-A2470.jpg

Very cool stuff.
Greg Bishansky
Friday, May 27, 2005 03:44:25 PM
IP: 69.118.108.212

Did anyone else notice that there are a few cells that weren't in the show? For example, there is one cell of Thailog holding Demona in his arms and his laser gun. But I checked Sanctuary and there is no such scene. I'm guessing it was cut from the show because of bad animation, or maybe because Demona is showing too much.

I think the scene takes place after Goliath kicks Demona and before Thailog shoots him. You can see Thailog holding Demona up and saying "That's no way to treat a lady," shooting Goliath, and then she's in his arms when he says, "Especially not the gargoyle I love." He must've picked her up, glared at Goliath, and then decided to shoot him.

Damn it, now I want to see that scene...
D. Taina
Friday, May 27, 2005 03:38:40 PM
IP: 205.188.116.203

Leo>Granted all those backgrounds are "wrong". They are reproductions, not truely meant to look like that scene, but just resemble the style
Siren
Friday, May 27, 2005 02:53:20 PM
IP: 24.173.175.62

I wonder why the spammer keeps coming back. I assume none of us are clicking on his stupid links, so he can't be getting much traffic out of this. Seems like an awful lot of effort for no effect.

I also wondered if, perhaps, one spammer has written the code to spam this room automatically (instead of typing it all into the form manually) and is now selling his services to all his spammer buddies ;)
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
Columbus, OH
Friday, May 27, 2005 02:37:13 PM
IP: 70.60.15.159

Gorebash hasn't "failed". The security code feature hasn't even gone live yet.

<<A couple of the cells look like they're missing one of the characters in the shot.>>

Isn't each character typically on it's own seperate cel?

I'm happy just to see this art being made available. Disney has locked the vault, so for a gallery to come upon this much "Gargoyles" stuff at once is a pretty good find.
Patrick
Friday, May 27, 2005 12:31:55 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Re: Cells.

I noticed a fiew quirks with some of them.

http://vegalleries.com/Gargoyles/035-A3107-A3094.jpg

I think Bronx shold be behind Angela in this one. (looks like hes standing on Angela's feet :-))
=============
http://vegalleries.com/Gargoyles/055-A2662cel.jpg

Right episode (Sanctuary), wrong background for that particular scene.

===================

A couple of the cells look like they're missing one of the characters in the shot.

Anyway. I had fun just looking at all the line drawings with the production notes and field crop marks.


SPAMMER! GET A LIFE!!!


Leo
Friday, May 27, 2005 10:14:10 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Gorebash: I'm afraid you've failed my friend. Maybe you should just block the word "Poker".

Animation Cels: If this wasn't the Gargoyles forum I'd joke about going to rob a bank after work to buy some cels. But this is the Gargoyles forum and the series made a big point about hypocricy. So it's sercurities fraud instead.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, May 27, 2005 09:52:51 AM
IP: 64.192.79.127

Speaking of cels for sell, I just put my Demona cel up on EBay. As much as I don't want to let go of it, I need to help pay for Gathering stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6182556823
BrooklynX
Friday, May 27, 2005 09:22:06 AM
IP: 68.123.106.122

Damn spammer knows neither when to walk or way, or when to run. Not much of a gambler, is he?

DPH > Gore said: "Letters will only be A-F (it's part of an md5 hash of a random # for you coders out there)."

63 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada!
Patrick
Friday, May 27, 2005 06:51:40 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Gorebash - Can you make the letters bigger? Reason being was that I saw "c" that looked almost like an "o". I tried it out looking for a lowercase "l" to compare to the numberal "1", but couldn't find the lowercase "l". Which letters/numbers are you using?
dph
ar, usa
Friday, May 27, 2005 01:26:10 AM
IP: 65.132.36.68

Hmm. I'm suprised that Greg Weisman showed as much restraint as he did on a certain answer.
dph
ar, usa
Friday, May 27, 2005 01:09:56 AM
IP: 65.132.36.68

Wow, if I didn't need a new computer, one of those Goliath cels would so be mine. *sadness* Congrats on your buy Patrick. Which cel did you get?
mascubanana
Friday, May 27, 2005 12:20:56 AM
IP: 160.39.106.56

HOLY BLANK BLANK $#!T BLANK EXPLITIVE BLANK BLANK BLANK EXPLITIVE...

Man, I just got paid today! If only I had known!

That is all I will pout about.
Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, May 26, 2005 11:22:40 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99

Woot! I finally have a Demona cel of my very own. :)

The "Gargoyles" stuff was going FAST when I called. Apparently some folks were in the store buying up things right and left... and right as I called someone else called wanting the same cel. But I was first by all of ten seconds, so it was MINE! ;)
Patrick
Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:54:24 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

^_^
RW
Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:46:42 PM
IP: 68.66.123.192

Ah, ya beat me to it Raptor Woman! :P

Nice prices too :D
Siren
Thursday, May 26, 2005 09:54:37 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

DUUUHH a URL would help: http://vegalleries.com/gargoyles.html
Raptor Woman
Thursday, May 26, 2005 09:51:17 PM
IP: 68.66.123.192

Hey kids...Van Eaton Galleries in LA has a HUGE Gargoyles animation cel, sketch, and background sale going on right now. Started about 2 hours ago. Just letting you guys know.
Raptor Woman
Thursday, May 26, 2005 09:49:58 PM
IP: 68.66.123.192

Works perfectly here Gore! Nice work. :) Just for a simple work-a-round for the HTML stripper, you could place a warning at the top of the post form stating that HTML code is not allowed.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Thursday, May 26, 2005 08:41:56 PM
IP: 216.38.142.250

Hey Gore-much better. Again-hanks for thinkin about me! *hands him an assorted cookie plate*
Wingless
Thursday, May 26, 2005 05:18:33 PM
IP: 70.28.12.78

Hello Renee! Have a cookie *Hands over a plate of cookies*

Dig in!
Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, May 26, 2005 04:16:56 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99

Okay Ding, give it another try. It's a bigger font, but it doesn't stand out as much. Does that work fine for you? If not, no worries. I've got a smaller, but much thicker font that'll work just as fine.

Also, I've now included the ability to type in the code so you can check and see if you can read it fine or not. If you keep getting incorrects, let me know.
Gorebash
Thursday, May 26, 2005 04:13:24 PM
IP: 192.207.57.49

Hey Goreo. First-thanks for thinking bout me concerning this. I can just manage it, but if it's not a big deal to make it a smidge bigger, please go for it.

Thanks muchly.
Wingless(aka "Ding")
Thursday, May 26, 2005 03:45:38 PM
IP: 70.28.12.78

Thanks for the info Phoenyx. Really nice of you to post it.

New to this room, got the link yesterday from Guand. *waves* Hi all.
Renee
Augusta, GA, USA
Thursday, May 26, 2005 01:43:35 PM
IP: 68.47.110.33

Herro Folks!!!! I just returned from my Vegas trip and thought I'd share some things for all you Gathering attendees. First off, visit Freamont Street, it is possibly one of the coolest places you can visit while in Vegas. It is covered with a roof that is over four stories tall and it is wired with a screen. It was PFA.
Second, I would recommend visiting the Star Trek Experience at the Las Vegas Hilton, Quarks is a very cool place to eat, provided the Klingons don't attack the Feringies while you are standing there.

If you are female, the Ceasers Palace Forum shops is for you. Granted, you may end up paying $1000.00 for the Burberry Bag, or $500.00 for the Armani top, But still, It's Burberry and Armani. Not cheap stores, but the stuff is so pretty!!!
As far as asthestecally pleasing hotels go, I recommend the Wynn, the Luxor, and the Paris. The Wynn is the newest Hotel and Casino in Vegas, and it is awsome. the dancing fountains at the Ballagio are a must see, if you can stand the song stylings of Celine Dion and Faith Hill, though I am told they dance to other music as well. The view of Vegas from the Effiel Tower is pretty awsome, if you can stand heights and the $9.00 price tag they put on the elevator ride. I also recommend a gondola ride at the Venetian with your honey if you have one. The gondoliers sing to you!!!

And, if you can afford it, catch a show. I personally saw the Blue Man Group and was blown away!!!! f you are light sensitive or loud noise and paint scares you, don't se it though. Well, that's all I can think of for now. Just thought this might help y'all!!!!!
Phoenyx
Memphis, TN, USA
Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:26:56 PM
IP: 135.214.66.240

Gore, Only time well tell if it truly works.
Matt Fews
Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:04:11 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Ding!

Hey, how's that security code thing I linked work for you? Too small? Not enough contrast? Or does it work cool with you?

-E
Gorebash
Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:55:48 AM
IP: 192.207.57.49

*Applauds the Gorebash-the rescuer from SPAM, then pounces him since he's so infrequently around*
Wingless
Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:44:50 AM
IP: 70.28.12.78

Wasn't as tough as I thought writing the captcha code. Anyways, click my name and you'll see what I've got. If you notice in the address, there's a "q" variable in the url, followed by =30. If you change that number (30) to anything between 1 and 100 you will be setting the JPEG quality level. I thought using the inherent distortion in jpegs might be the simplest way to go.

Anyways, I've got the link set at 30. How readable is that for everyone? Too distorted? Try changing the value in the URL until you find something you like. If 100, so be it.

Do you need a bigger font? This is fairly standard, as "security codes" go, in terms of appearance. But if you want to see a change in the look, let me know.

You can keep hitting reload over and over to see different codes. Letters will only be A-F (it's part of an md5 hash of a random # for you coders out there).

Coo?
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:26:24 AM
IP: 192.207.57.57

Un fricken believable.

Vertigo1: Thanks for the offer, but I'm going to stick with my own code. I tried rolling out phpBB in the past and more people preferred this format (and not having to register) to phpBB. I've got a bunch of php-based CAPTCHA code now so include that shouldn't be too much of a burden.... I hope.

But if the spammer is a living, breathing person then it will be all for nought.

Moving it to PHP will make it easier to then throw in filters as well, so no worries.

Patrick & Guandalug: Filtering anchor tags out of the comments section isn't something I want to do. There have been users who have mistakenly thought the CR supported HTML in the past and that would of killed their post.

Besides, a straight anchor filter still requires I move this to a php-based system (it's still the old C-code system, dispite the .php suffix). I much prefer a filter on the link tag and just throw into the list any addresses used by spammers.

Plus, if I put this in as a database-driven CR, there are a lot of other things I could work towards later on down the road. Such as self-mod system like Slashdot, an eventual user registration system maybe... all sorts of stuff.

It's long overdue and I've got Friday off from work so I'll be working on it.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Thursday, May 26, 2005 09:48:16 AM
IP: 192.207.57.35

Gorebash> Hint: A good way of catching this specific spammer now: DIsallow '<a href="...">' in a post. It's really NOT needed in here. I agree that this is but an ugly quick-patch, but it'll at least slow him down. And yes, this spammer must have invested some time to spam us in here *sigh*
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
Thursday, May 26, 2005 09:39:24 AM
IP: 80.145.11.164

O_0

Anyone get the feeling that the spammer is pissed after his earlier spams were deleted?
Leo
Thursday, May 26, 2005 07:50:14 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

GREGARIUS - I'd thought the same way about the Hunters and Quarrymen themselves - even if the gargoyles really were the evil monsters that these people believed them to be, the methods that these groups were using to hunt them were a danger to innocent bystanders. Though, as I also mentioned before, their reasons for hunting the gargoyles were suspect anyway; they weren't based on "We have to protect people from these demons" but "I want revenge for what a gargoyle did to me personally" or "It'd be fun to hunt a gargoyle for the thrill" or "They're getting in the way of my objectives".

KAYLLE - I think that much of Jon's turnaround was guilt over the fact that he'd spared the gargoyles at the clock tower, and that if he'd shot them then, Goliath wouldn't have been alive to later on send Jason over the dam. Plus (I've said this before, I'll admit) Jon was a weak man. Even when he was pro-gargoyle, he didn't put much backbone into his defense of them. He spared them at the clock tower, but then, when Robyn asked him to, proceeded to frame them on the news for the attack on the police station without even a hint of protest. And during the battle at the dam, when Elisa asked him if he could help stop the fighting, Jon simply said, "I wish that I could", without even a hint that he had put any effort into it; Elisa was the one who actively attempted to stop the feud, whereas Jon didn't even try.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, May 26, 2005 07:27:11 AM
IP: 4.244.12.155

"On the other hand, I can see where intelligent, empathetic gargoyles could still be caged/kept under strict surveillance indefinitely."

Indefinite detention without being charged with a crime, based on vague suspicion of being a danger to society. That's hardly a stretch of the imagination these days. Guantanamo Bay, anyone?

Gorebash > A filter that discards postings with "href=" in the comment field might be one way to eliminate some of the spam.

64 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada!
Patrick
Thursday, May 26, 2005 06:47:56 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I just watched Hunter's Moon 3 on Toon Disney. What a beautiful, beautiful episode. There are so many things to love. I'm not going to be able to remember them all, but I'm going to list some of them anyway because they make me happy and I want to share the joy ;)

1) When Elisa tells Goliath not to pursue the Hunters, he listens reluctantly. When Brooklyn tries to back her up, Goliath glares at him. Apparently only Elisa is allowed to disagree. (This list might be heavy on the Goliath/Elisa angle; can you tell I love them?)

2) Jason shoves Elisa behind him on the dam and she teeters but regains her balance. Then Goliath knocks Jason backwards and he collides with Elisa. Both of them are to blame. Goliath's desire for vengeance costs him Elisa's life (at least, so he thinks). He can't ignore his own part in what happened. Nonetheless, Goliath doesn't change his mind, and Elisa's death rallies the rest of the clan behind him.

3) Jon's complete about-face after the incident at the dam. He goes from the most sympathetic Hunter to the most dedicated, to the point of obsession. I find it interesting his father's death wasn't enough to do that to him, but Jason's was. The age difference, perhaps? The cumulative effect of both of them? Or was it because this time it was Goliath doing the "killing," whom he had thought was a good guy?

4) Goliath's whole posture changes when Elisa shows up at the cathedral, and she runs to him.

5) "He risked his life to save us all?"
"That's what he does. That's who he is."
She's so matter-of-fact, so certain of his character.

6) The music when the gargoyles are on the roof, with the police helicopters hovering, is just perfect. That whole scene is perfect. "Elisa says we have to go! Now!" And the warning line of bullets up the roof. They've run out of time, and there's no foreseeable way out. And then *Xanatos* comes to the rescue! Maybe I wasn't very observant, but I didn't see that coming at all when I first saw this ep.

7) "You know how I feel about you, right?" That line was so exciting the first time I heard it! I couldn't believe they had actually broached the subject at last. (Of course, they would do it at the *end* of the series! <g>)

Okay, that's enough from me. I'm going to stop now before I fill up the room... Anyone else watch this tonight? And thanks to whoever posted the heads-up the other day that HM was coming up on Toon Disney!
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
Columbus, OH
Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:53:13 AM
IP: 70.60.15.159

Public opinion has been used by many a politician for centuries to try to get what they want.

One example that comes to mind is Kerry using libral thinking to win votes against bush in the last election. (I.E. The Iraq war.) A great deal of people were outraged by the war, mostly in liberal areas (Ca, Ny, Fl) but in the conservative areas (Ak, Ms, Ga, Sc, Nc, Tx) where war is more acceptable ("I fought in WW2!" "We have to stop the red menace!" and all that jazz) Bush won.

But Kerry still got half of the votes with the anti-war stance (a big issue on whihc the public was evenly devided.)

In Canada, the Conservative party has not let us forget that the ruling Liberal minority government has stolen hundreds of millions of dollars from the pockets of joe and josie Canadian. (And I agree with them... I hate the ruling liberal party but I myslef am moderate... A bit liberal and a bit conservative.) Using the public anger at the Liberals, the Conservatives held a non-confidence vote to bring down the ruling Lierals. (in essence, if the Conservatives won (they lost), an election would be called.)

In 1990, the ruling conservative party introduced the GST (goods and service tax). The Smae conservative party lost the next election on the heels of that and the fact that the Liberlas promised to get rid of the GST (which they never did).

The Liberal party won on the assumption of most Canadians that the tax would get the old heev-ho 9It was their main campaign platform). They accuratly guaged public opinion, used it to their full advantage, and won.

Politicians try to use public opinion to get what they want - bills passed, to be elected, etc. when ever they can. Any little thing they will run with. Feer-mongering (SP?), slander, Etc.

The Gargoyles are seen as a threat. "People fear what they do not understand." Even if Todd's "politician" LOVED the Gargoyles, and was dirty, he would use the public's fear of the unknown to get elected, a bill passed, etc. What ever he wanted.

It would be interesting to see a politician like that. Xanatos was like that. Purely for personal gain (and, I think, ultimatly, immortality.) He used the Gargoyles to his advantages several times. That's why he brought them to NY in the first place.

But if a man, holding (or trying to hold) public office used that kind of fear as a tool, it would, I feel, give his (Or her!) a big boost in the polls. Fear and public opinion can be a powerful tool.

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, May 25, 2005 11:03:45 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99

Even if the gargoyles were dangerous, many of their foes' methods endanger civilians needlessly. Is it worth it to solve one problem only to create a bigger one?

On the other hand, I can see where intelligent, empathetic gargoyles could still be caged/kept under strict surveillance indefinitely.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:54:26 PM
IP: 4.247.188.76

Wish we knew if the Spammer had their own message board, then we could SPAM him with Gargoyle ads :D
Siren
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:35:16 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

We are the spam. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be bombarded with advertisements for online gambling and natural male enhancement!

:P
Patrick
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 09:42:56 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Re: SPAM> "until it adapts..."

hilarious! lol!!!
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 08:43:25 PM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Does anybody else share my suspicions that, come the Gathering this year, none of the attendees will want to take part in any poker games in Las Vegas, no matter how much they may have initially wanted to before all this spamming began? I can't help but think that the spammer may be affecting people here's attitude towards poker the way that the Illuminati in the Goliath Chronicles affected Goliath's attitude towards a certain foreign statesman....

What would *really* be an interesting development in the Gargoyles Universe would be a politician who's exploiting the public's fears of gargoyles, but unlike Margot Yale and Mr. Doyle, doesn't have any personal hatred towards gargoyles - rather, somebody who's interested in the situation purely for his own personal gain. Kind of like the "Phoney the Dragonslayer" portion of "Bone".
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:48:08 PM
IP: 4.244.12.72

Gorebash: It might be best to move to phpBB, or something like it. I can talk to a friend of mine that has an image verification mod for it, so you have to be a living being to register. That way, if someone actually registers with an account and starts spamming, it would be a simple matter of banning the offender. It would be alot easier on you to install an already assembled bb system rather than recoding this one. If you do decide to go phpBB, I can whip up a simple theme for you to use.
Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
TN, USA
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:45:26 PM
IP: 216.38.142.250

RE: Spam

There's no specific IP range I can use to block. Maybe I could start filtering on the URL submitted with each post to block stuff from southtecrepair.com, but what happens with the next one?

It's incredibly silly. Spamming this place has to be done manually or someone has to create a program specifically to target the CR submit form. Either case it (typically) isn't cost effective. But.. someone has decided otherwise.

So I'm going to spend Thursday night and maybe see about getting Friday off from work to do some quick coding to rewrite the chat room. (the current C-based code is just old and ugly, anyways.) So what I'll have to do is find some "security code" examples based in php that require you to enter a randomly-generated number appearing a bit distorted in some image. That will hinder any automated responses. It'll also make it easier to insert a filter (such as something filtering on the URL like I talked about earlier).

But ultimately, guys, there isn't a whole lot I can do. Maybe a registration system so I can at least get a valid e-mail address for the frickin spammers. But the greatest asset to the system (freedom,anonymity,etc) is going to also be its biggest problem.

Meh.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:07:35 PM
IP: 70.22.248.16

Margot would make a great politician. First, she shares the media's view on the gargoyles. That they are monsters. That would be a great booster. Now she would only need to pick a political party.

Last year a discussion started about a possible Dominique Destine political run. I'd love to see a debate between her and Margot.

And nobody use white as their color. It's easier to filter thru the spam that way...until it adapts.

Spam in the place where you work...
Lord GargFan
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 05:57:24 PM
IP: 67.185.229.228

The spam's getting so deep in here, it's hard to follow this forum anymore.

What Margot may know to be true and what Margot may say on T.V. may be influenced quite a bit by what Margot's political aspirations may be. Giving the public what they want to hear is the name of the game when seeking elected office. And when the political field is linked to law enforcement, you don't make a name for yourself by appearing soft on issues that might be seen as related to public safety. In that respect, I don't see Margot as some sort of evil mastermind. I just see her as a typical politician.

65 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada!
Patrick
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:49:17 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

if gargs really were savage man-eating beasts i'm sure that most would agree that for the public's safety they need to be contained at least, and possibly destroyed... sorry Tpdd, but i'm not sure what the debate is there. it seems obvious to me. the fact is, Margot of all people should know that they are NOT beasts. the subway scene in Hunter's Moon is enough to make that clear... she can see them wearing loinclothes, she can hear them talking to each other, the muggers and Elisa, and i'm pretty sure they didn't eat anyone, not even the bad guys, the only ones they attacked. i only hope the others on the subway were a little more observant then Margot...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 08:33:25 AM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Again, my point about Margot (and sorry for the all-caps, but I need to make this clear) is this:

HOW WOULD WE FEEL ABOUT HER REMARKS IN "THE JOURNEY" IF THE GARGOYLES ACTUALLY *WERE* THE SAVAGE BEASTS THAT SHE BELIEVED THEM TO BE?

To be perfectly fair about Margot, she doesn't know the truth about the gargoyles. All that she's seen of them is a few "violent eruptions" as they come seemingly out of nowhere, do some fighting and snarling (always against criminals menacing the local citizens, but she never seems to have noticed that), and disappear again. She doesn't realize that they're intelligent beings (and Greg Weisman himself has brought up that a crucial point that he was going for in his take on gargoyle-human relations - which, unfortunately, the staff of the Goliath Chronicles didn't pick up on, was that it would take a long while for most humans to realize that the gargoyles were intelligent beings rather than just strange-looking wild animals).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, May 25, 2005 07:11:43 AM
IP: 4.244.12.10

Siren> the snake in the garage, gargoyle on the parapet analogy is very apt, well put.

the reason i think Margot is in a way more dangerous than the Quarrymen is because she can sound very rational. the Quarrymen, like the KKK are very irrational and i'm sure most of the American public can see that. even those who share their beliefs see them as extremists. but Margot, like many elected segregationists 50 years ago can go on national tv and make rational points, like "lets lock them up and study them safely" and "we don't know anything about them so we should assume they are dangerous" she even has some of you guys fooled! the fact is,if they really want to know about the gargoyles they should set up an invitation to talk to them. Margot herself (and many others including Elisa) has seen them speak. and even if many don't believe they can speak or whatever there is no harm in trying to talk to them... anyway, the point is Margot IMHO is more dangerous because the average American citizen will trust her more, she'll sound more logical to them and they will be coerced into sharing her point more quickly than watching those hooded Quarrymen running around blowing things up and smashing things.

and as for my comment about gargoyles breathing the air, no i don't think they will actually die if they are not able to protect, but you only have to look at Goliath in "Reawakening" to see what a gargoyle begins to feel like when they have no purpose. a caged gargoyle will probably be severely depressed and withdrawn. the point being that a caged gargoyle will lose its identity. obviously if the officials learn that innocent gargoyles are sentient, caging them will be beyond immoral.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:27:16 PM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Todd>Yes, that also wasn't lost on me. As much as they disliked them living their, they allowed them. Like people who hate bats and snakes, but feel so long as they stay outside of their homes, they will agree to live with them. But the moment a snake is found in the garage, they take out the shovel. I think this attitude was also towards the gargoyles. So long as they stay outside on the parapets, they didn't exist to them. And they were happy. But when the Captain asked Goliath and Demona to come to the dining hall, it was the whole snake in the garage thing.
They certainly weren't so ignorant they didn't see that the gargoyles had their usefullness, they just didn't want to admit it. "Please, do not mention that monster's name in my presence" kinda thing.
Siren
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 07:41:17 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

SIREN - I like what you wrote about the Magus and Princess Katharine. One thought that I did recently have about their original attitude towards the gargoyles (back when they were still anti-gargoyle) was that they appeared to be wanting to eat their cake and still have it where the gargs were concerned. They viewed the gargoyles as monstrosities that humans ought not to be associating with - yet still kept them on to guard the castle. If the gargoyles really *were* evil monstrosities, then humans ought not to be keeping them around to be protected by them. Katharine and the Magus wanted to have it both ways, it seemed; they wanted the security of gargoyle protection, while still viewing the gargoyles as something to be looked down upon.

Very good point about Katharine's hypocrisy in complaining about the gargoyles' presence in the great hall as "beasts" when she already had all those dogs freely walking about there. (Greg Weisman once mentioned that he wanted to follow up Katharine's line by showing one of the dogs grabbing somebody's food from off their plate, but wasn't able to get the scene animated well enough.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 07:28:04 PM
IP: 4.244.18.53

Yes, as Goliath says, "Humans fear what they do not understand." and then let's turn to wise Yoda for a continuation on this "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

All too often, the human fear and hate ends up targeting people and creatures and their minds are so clouded with half-truths and untruths that they fail to see the reprocutions of their actions at that time or ever. Look what we do to wild animals. In every part of the world, when someone or livestock it killed in or near the wild, the top predator is instantly suspected. In the mountain forests, depending on the area, bears, wolves, or cougars. In the ocean, sharks. It is universal. And when one predator kills or seriously injures someone one or livestock, pet, etc, there is a bounty on its head and EVERY predator is killed. It is human nature to act before thinking of the results. We have caused so many extinctions that we are beginning to rival any meteor. Most of the exctinctions and near extinctions were a result of ignorance.

I'd fear very much if gargoyles were real and what humans would do to them. Imagine if you will someone found the body of a Bigfoot or a sea serpent. What would that be like? Sport hunters would go looking for such creatures to be hometown heroes and the "great hunter".

The Hunters weren't so much a threat to the existance of gargoyles. It was one family that through generations hunted ONE gargoyle. I am sure innocent gargoyles were killed in the process, but it would be a fraction of what a hate group like the Quarrymen could do. The Hunters did it because they wanted to right a wrong done to their family thousands of years ago on ONE gargoyle. Not the entire race. It seemed most the Hunters were simply after Demona. Now and then I am sure some didn't see the difference between Demona or any other gargoyle. But the goal was her. So I wonder if she was killed, would that truely have been it? I believe it may have been.
But the Quarrymen were born of hate for an entire species (race), such as the KKK. It was no longer revenge to right a wrong, but it was for pure, unadultered hate against gargoyles. They were against all that was natural, in their opinion. It's kind of interesting to watch the psychological changes in some of the human characters on the show. Especially Princess Catherine and Magus. They loathe the gargoyles. I don't feel they hated them per say. Magus was the one who called them "unnatural". And Princess Catherine mentioned "beasts in a dining hall", when they had several dogs eating off the floor, the irony was not lost on me. After the massacre and the spell was cast, Catherine and Magus felt a great sense of guilt. Much as I described before. Humans misunderstand, fear, hate and then destroy. And it isn't till after they have destroyed that they realize THEY were in the wrong and feel guilt. Magus and Catherine were perfect examples of this. And like scientists trying to bring back the Tasmanian Tiger and Quagga to right past wrongs, Cathering and Magus took the eggs in their charge so that they can right their wrongs, take away that guilt, and for once, do something right for gargoyles.
Siren
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 07:14:39 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Some good points about Margot Yale here, but I'd like to make my point about her a bit clearer. The central question of my comment was "How would we feel about the anti-gargoyle people if gargoyles really *were* the evil monsters or savage beasts that the anti-gargoyle people belived them to be?" In other words, how would we feel about Margot's remarks in "The Journey" if the gargoyles actually *were* ferocious wild animals that were prowling about the city, looking for humans to devour? If the gargoyles actually were what Margot believed them to be, I think that her response of having them locked up where they couldn't attack anyone would be a reasonable one. Remember, Margot doesn't know the truth about the gargoyles.

The gargoyles have the misfortune of physically resembling demons in such features as batlike wings, clawed hands and feet, horns, fangs, and being incapacitated during the daytime, all features that humans associate with evil. (Just look at Czernobog in the Bald Mountain sequence of the original "Fantasia" - Castaway couldn't come up with a better anti-gargoyle propaganda technique if he tried.) Consequently, it would be all too easy for the Canmores to have come to the conclusion that all gargoyles were evil. Where they went seriously wrong was the lengths that they were willing to go to in order to hunt them, such as in blowing up the clock tower. Would a genuine hero blow up a building full of innocent bystanders just to get rid of a monster, no matter how evil and dangerous it was - and afterwards, when he learnned that the monster had escaped, publicly claim that it was the monster that had done it rather than take responsibility for it himself?

(We know that the Hunters were designed in part as almost a twisted equivalent to Batman; the difference is that if Batman had used the sort of tactics against the criminals of Gotham City that the Hunters and Quarrymen used against the gargoyles, he'd be in a maximum security cell in Arkham Asylum in a hurry.)

Come to think of it, the one "gargoyle-hunter" in the series that we really could approve of was Matt Bluestone during the period between "The Edge" and "Revelations", when he was investigating the gargoyles and trying to find out more about them; he was doing so because he was genuinely concerned about these mysterious creatures and if they were a threat to the city (though it probably helped that he was already in the habit of investigating and tracking other "bizarre" beings), rather than out of a vendetta, for example.

Technically speaking, I think that Demona may still have some belief in protecting, if in a twisted way. She almost certainly believes that her quest to wipe out humanity is protecting her race from extinction. (Even though she's willing to wipe out any individual gargoyle who gets in the way of her goal, such as Goliath.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 07:01:04 PM
IP: 4.244.18.53

Leo>>Exactly what I think every time.

Quarrymen, etc.>Think about any other predjudicial groups. All (or most) have unfounded beliefs and want to destroy what they're against. It's the human nature to fear what they do not understand, (thanks to the Gargoyles writers!) and it is human nature to destroy what they fear. (Maybe not destroy, but whatever.)
Lord GargFan
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 06:53:15 PM
IP: 67.185.229.228

There are 3 types of activists.

Voice...Those who simply voice their opinions, but take no action.
Action...Those who not only voice, but take legal action to get their opinion out. Be it on Capital Hill or a simple protest.
Extreme...Those who use not only their voice, but do illegal actions to get their opinion not out there, but forced in the limelight.

Margot is a Voice. She went on the news and said, "This is what I think.", but she took no action. Her ideas may have helped fueled people to think the same as her, but she is not responsible for that. That would be like President Bush going on tv and saying, "I am against abortion." and the next day an abortion clinic is bombed, and Bush is blamed for it.

While the Hunters and Quarrymen were extremists. They would break every law in the book, even blowing up the clock tower which potentially would injure and kill police officers to get what they wanted. Hunters and Quarrymen were terrorists. And anyone who stood in their way on purpose or otherwise was not their concern and were expendable.

As much as I think Margot is an uber-b!tch, she is only taking on her American rights to speak her mind that she believes gargoyles should be scientifically studied.

Think about it...Every time some new creature is discovered, what do we do? Study it. Due to gargoyles' size, appearence, and intelligence, this can seriously threaten people. On all sorts of levels. If such a race was discovered, imagine how different groups of people might look at it. You are sure to have religion come into play. Some religions may see them as demonic. Some people may even question their own religion if they were found to be in existance. Same when alien beings are finally conclusivly discovered. That will throw a great big crack through religion on a whole.
Scientific wise, scientists will want to know how they evolved, their social structure, biology, etc. Science will want to know.

So Margot saying they should be kept locked up in studied? How is that different then locking up millions of animals that are studied and experimented on everyday?

And the theology of "a gargoyle can no longer stop protecting the castle then breathing the air" is both psychological and physical, but that is something placed into them from hatching. Demona doesn't follow this gargoyle rule. She doesn't seem to settle in one place for long, so I think it is more a way of life then they will literally die if they cannot protect. I am sure there are similar gargoyles to Demona that have stopped following that rule. It's like a child who is raised in a republican family all their life and then when they put everything on their plate and look it over, they discover they are more democratic. Demona is that example. She was raised to feel and believe that, but grew out of it due to turmoil. So I don't think a gargoyle would literally die from being held captive. I think they may be pissed off for a very long time :P
Siren
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 04:36:27 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

*sings*

SPAM in the place where I live. (ham and pork)
Think about nutrition, wonder what's inside it now. (oh boy)
SPAM in my lunchbox at work. (it's the best)
Really makes a darn good sandwich, any way you slice it at all.

SPAM
-----------------------------
(lyrics by "Weird Al" Yankovic,
Parody of "Stand" by R.E.M.)

Leo
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 04:16:56 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Yes, but atleast if they were locked up for study they would have a chance for life. Canmore was trying to wipe them off the face of the planet by any means possible. Margot never incited riots, started a group of vigilante bigots, or used any illegal means to achieve her goals. She spoke out against the gargoyles, yes. However, she never went beyond what the law would grant her.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 04:15:22 PM
IP: 216.38.142.250

sorry for the double post, but one more thing. you said, "However, if you recall, she never once pushed for their destruction. She wanted them locked up and *studied*."

but Hudson said "A gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle then breathing the air."
to lock them up, WOULD destroy them. a gargoyle behind bars can not protect, and a gargoyle that can't protect isn't a gargoyle anymore in their point of view.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 01:34:54 PM
IP: 68.95.57.103

do you hear yourself? "I don't think she was that bad... She wanted them locked up and studied."

heres a quote for you: "Give me liberty or give me death" Goliath and Clan would sooner die fighting then be locked up and treated like animals...

neither Jon Canmore or Margot Yale are good people, both are a threat to the Clan in their own ways, but i find Margot to be much more dangerous...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 01:32:01 PM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Jetfire: 10:30pm CST on Toon Disney. Part two is tonight.

As for Margot Yale, I don't think she was that bad. When we first saw her, she got the crap scared out of her when Goliath scared off Brandon's muggers. That couldn't have made for the best of first impressions. Her fear of gargoyles in general is most definitely not unjustified. Her comments in "The Journey" were quite understandable given her limited exposure to "our heroes". However, if you recall, she never once pushed for their destruction. She wanted them locked up and *studied*. That was far more fair than what Jon Canmore wanted. He wanted them wiped out entirely.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 01:14:28 PM
IP: 216.38.142.250

Todd> the problem with the Quarrymen and the Hunters is that they are guilty of being human. plain and simple. humans, sadly, have a long history of hearing about one demographic or having one bad incident with a person of said demographic and deciding that the entire group is somehow at fault. did Gillcomgain go too far, sure, probably, but i also understand he has every right to be pretty pissed with Demona. his problem (well, one of his problems anyway) is that most likely Demona was the first gargoyle he has ever encountered, and he decided that all the rest of them were just like her. Gill had some serious issues because he decided to eradicate a species based on his hatred of one member of that species. and even though i don't consider it entirely healthy i would've understood his desire to hunt down Demona, but by going after all gargoyles he went beyond rational. it reminds me of John and Jason Canmore discussing the gargoyles in "Hunter's Moon" John said that the other gargoyles were Demona's enemies and might have even helped them hunt her down. again, its dumb for them to hunt her anyway, but if she was their target, the Clan could have helped them a lot, thats rational. of course Jason has the same problem that Gill did he wants them all wiped out... irrationality goes with the mask and hood apparently...

and that is what makes Margot Yale so dangerous to the clan. by sounding more rational, by not wearing hoods and masks and screaming like a lunatic, by operating within the law and explaining her points carefully to the media she is causing much more damage and gaining many more supporters than the Quarrymen and Hunters are. in fact, i'd say that Margot Yale was set up in "The Journey" to become one of the most realistic villains in the series. she doesn't fight the gargoyles with giant laser guns, electrified hammers, hoverships and elaborate traps to destroy them, she uses propaganda and her skills in manipulating the laws to destroy the gargoyles and their reputation. this is the kind of villain i see all the time in the real world, and they are very difficult to overcome. mark my words, i think Goliath and Clan would rather face 100 Quarrymen than Margot Yale...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:07:47 AM
IP: 68.95.57.103

Siren: The link isn't working (access denied).
Vertigo: Where and when (in EST time)?
Jetfire
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:11:34 AM
IP: 70.25.113.198

Of course, a contributing factor in Gillecomgain's case seems to have been having a very harsh and unfeeling father.

But I did think that Gillecomgain's desire to wipe out the entire gargoyle race because a single gargoyle scarred him was a case of the punishment being much more severe than the original offence. (Kind of like Demona and the Captain deciding to turn over the human population of Castle Wyvern to the Vikings merely because of their not being too fond of gargoyles.) Though the point where Gillecomgain completely forfeits the audience's sympathy (or ought to) comes when he becomes Duncan's personal hit-man in matters that have nothing to do with gargoyles (as in, assassinating Duncan's potential rivals).

As a side-note, although Margot Yale definitely functions as one of the recurring characters that the fans aren't too keen on, she does strike me in "The Journey" as being fairly rational (at least, compared to Castaway). She was calling for the gargoyles to be simply caged up rather than slaughtered; in fact, if the gargoyles really had been the wild beasts that she believed them to be, I don't think that what she was saying would have come across as quite so outrageous. Though we still obviously wouldn't want the clan to fall into her hands....
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 07:28:38 AM
IP: 4.244.12.86

I always thought Gillecomgain's reason for becoming the Hunter was pretty frigging stupid. It pretty much amounted to "my face! My beautiful face! You'll pay! You'll all pay! Don't think you won't pay!"

Seeing as the Hunters/Quarrymen started because a pretty-boy was afraid he wouldn't be able to get dates, I still think that they're all really just somewhat articulate morons, and I tend to side with the polysyllabic.
Whitbourne
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 06:39:57 AM
IP: 142.177.155.149

Hi All!

Todd: On Gargoyles as Demons? Well, I have to say I would find it hard to decide if they really were, But Anyone who runs around in hoods is up to no good.
Which would bias me against the Hunters and Quarrymen, regardless.

Goodnight All!!
Jonathan
NEW ZEALANDTuesday, May 24, 2005 03:29:23 AM
IP: 203.96.206.173

Yay, Hunter's Moon part 1 is on tonight!
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, May 23, 2005 11:46:45 PM
IP: 216.38.142.250

In order to liven things up a little here, here's a question for the room.

The big reason, of course, why we view the Hunters and Quarrymen (and other anti-gargoyle characters) as "bad guys" is because we know that most gargoyles (with a few "black sheep" exceptions such as Demona, Thailog, and Coldsteel) aren't evil monsters but a noble race of protectors, and that the gargoyle-haters are therefore targeting the innocent. But how would we regard them if the gargoyles actually *were* the evil monsters that the Hunters et al believed them to be? Would we feel the same way about them, or not?

(For my own part, I'd say that I'd still regard the bulk of the Hunters and Quarrymen with at least a strong element of uneasiness, even if the gargoyles were demons and monsters. The series made it clear that the Hunters' motivations for going after the gargoyles were not good ones; they were not hunting gargoyles because "these creatures prey upon the innocent; we have to stop them" but for more personal reasons such as "A gargoyle scratched my face when I was a boy, so I want to wipe out the entire species!" or "The gargoyles are on the same side as my leading rival to the Scottish throne; I'd better get rid of them so that he'll be defenceless against me" or "A gargoyle killed my father in front of me when I was a kid, so I want to kill them all in return" or "I shot my brother but don't have the courage to admit that it was my fault, so I'm going to place the blame on the gargoyles instead". Many of them were just as dangerous to their fellow humans - such as Gillecomgain being a hired assassin for Prince Duncan - as the gargoyles could ever have been. And they generally had little concern over the possibility of innocent human bystanders getting harmed - especially during the Goliath Chronicles, which admittedly isn't canonical. Even if the gargoyles actually were the demons that their pursuers believed them to be, I'd still have a hard time supporting those people.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, May 23, 2005 06:44:21 PM
IP: 4.244.12.40

LOL, he did! That's fantastic hehehe Click my name to see it
Siren
Monday, May 23, 2005 06:31:33 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

10th.
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
Monday, May 23, 2005 12:51:37 PM
IP: 63.135.41.165

9th

Siren: I believe Spike did a pciture for MGC that had Lexington as the Chupecabra
Spacebabie
Monday, May 23, 2005 10:51:51 AM
IP: 69.161.157.101

8th!


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Monday, May 23, 2005 08:58:39 AM
IP: 134.215.241.133

7th
Siren
Monday, May 23, 2005 07:40:56 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

*yawns* sixth...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Monday, May 23, 2005 07:32:05 AM
IP: 68.95.57.103

I take the 5th!!
dph
ar, usa
Monday, May 23, 2005 03:20:33 AM
IP: 65.132.36.8

4th and was last week great or what? Season 2 confirmation!
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Monday, May 23, 2005 12:53:49 AM
IP: 69.17.169.178

3rd!
Leo
Monday, May 23, 2005 12:50:23 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

2nd!
Kaylle
Columbus, OH
Monday, May 23, 2005 12:43:41 AM
IP: 70.60.15.159

First!!!

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast`
CanadaMonday, May 23, 2005 12:01:18 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99