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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 5, 2006

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I took a stab at gargoyle taxonomy a long time back, though I don't recall if i got through the whole thing. Here's a semi-accurate recreation.

Kingdom: Animalia Gargoyles clearly aren't one-celled organisms or fungi and i don't believe they're plants either, though their apparent ability to process solar energy during their daily sleep could be compared to photosynthesis.

Phylum: Chordata I'm pretty sure they have backbones as well.

Class: Mammalia I can't remember if I came to this conclusion on my own or I read that Greg said they were mammals. Either way, this seems to make the most sense to me. They have hair (if we assume that even Lex and Bronx have some small amount of hair that we don't see), they apparently nurse their young, and the "cold does not bother us" thing suggests warm blooded rather than a reptile, which would likely be very bothered by the cold. The egg laying doesn't rule out mammals either, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Order: Gargata (the source I'm using has "Primata" for primates) Now I know Greg has classified gargoyles as "gargates", so far be it from me to question that.

Family: Lithonidae As I'm remembering, this is where I got stuck the first time I tried this, since the real world taxonomy is not as helpful once "Gargata" comes into play. I think there are some real life cases where a particular classification contains only one type of the next lowest classification (families with onlu one genus, for example). Barring the discovery of gargoyles who do not turn to stone, this is probably going to be the case here.

Genus: Nocturnus I really like Lynati's classification, but I wanted something that wasn't just repeating the family classification. As one of the other major features of gargoyles is their forced nocturnal schedule, "nocturnus" seems to work. Again, assuming there are no gargoyles or gargoyle-like creatures that can naturally remain awake by day (as opposed to through magic), this is probably the only genus in this family.

Species (Regular gargoyle): Sapiens Again, I like Lynati's classification a lot, but I think I had this in mind when I did my first one too. "Sapiens" means "thinking" and what beeter species name to give to the first other terrestrial equal that humanity discovers? (we are now assuming that the scientific classification for gargoyles is done after the initial panic surrounding their discovery by modern humans, at some time when cooler scientific heads prevail.)

Species (Gargoyle beast): Ferox The Latin dictionary I'm using says it can mean "courageous" and "warrior-like" when used positively, or "wild" and "unbridled" in a more negative sense. That seems to exemplify both the positive qualities of a gargoyles beast and the way someone might feel about one when being chased around by Bronx. Lynati, what does "Theros" mean? I tried checking myself and all I got was "Greek for 'harvesting'", which seemed a bit off to me.

So the full scientific name for a gargoyle would be Animalia Chordata Mammalia Gargata Lithonidae Nocturnus Sapiens. In other words, a gargoyles is an animal with a backbone which has hair, nurses its young, and is warm blooded, turns to stone, is active only at night, and is capable of reasoning. Sound good?

I'd agree that the wide variations in gargoyles appearence should not cause them to be classified as different species, since they are all perfectly able to interbreed and produce viable offspring. However, sometimes scientists will assign sub-species classifications to a species. I think they're often used to describe situations where sucessful interbreeding may be possible, but geographic barriers prevent it from occuring. So for the known clans today, you could maybe have "nocturnus sapiens Manhattanus" or "nocturnus sapiens Londinium". (Please forgive my rusty Latin. I'm not going to embarass myself further bu making up Latin names for "Guatamala" or "Japan".) But given the wide variety of gargoyle appearences, scientists might decide that further classification based on physical features is called for. So we could have:

nocturnus sapiens homo - Gargoyles that closely resemble humans, like Goliath, Demona, and Angela
nocturnus sapiens rostratus - Gargoyles with beaks, like Brooklyn (rostratus - "beaked")
nocturnus sapiens brachialatus - Gargoyles with Lexington's wing structure (roughly translates to "arm wing")
nocturnus sapiens cornus - A gargoyle with large horns.
nocturnus sapiens serpentis - A gargoyle that resembles a snake.
nocturnus sapiens leo - A gargoyle that resembles a lion.
nocturnus sapiens gryps - A gargoyle that looks like a griffin.

And maybe you could have "nocturnus ferox canis" and "nocturnus ferox felis" to denote more canine or feline like gargoyle beasts.

Feel free to have your own fun with it. I've obviously had too much already.

Demonskrye
King Phillip Came Over From Germany Saturday

Astaria>> Well, it's not *too* relevant to taxonomy - just speculation on the evolution of Greg's word "gorlois" to gargoyle, but I can send it to you if you want.

Matt>> We'll see what happens after the board wipes tonight, but I think the current topic should be continued into next week.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
Kings Play Chess On Funny Glass Stairs

I'm actually kinda interested in the taxonomy discussion. I wish I could add more to the discussion, but I'm a little rusty. I know the room will clear in a few hours, but if Alex Garg could also email me the information, I'll see what I can add. (My taxonomy teacher would have my head if he knew how out of practice I am).
Asatira - [gostowl@yahoo.com]

Sorry for the double post.

AlexGarg> Okay, I read the essay and frankly, its fascinating. You sure know your stuff, buddy. It would be a long post, but it is so interesting that I would suggest posting it anyway. I can easily see it stirring up some conversation. Anyway, the Room is clearing tonight so a long post isn't a big deal. Your call, of course.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

Lynati> I think Greg agrees with you about the Beasts losing their wings rather than the Gargoyles gaining them. I tend to think the wingless variety existed first and thus has a stronger connection to known species and groups.

Greg once posted that Beasts may have vestigial wing bones on their backs that don't protrude. If this is true, perhaps these bones are responsible for the back horns many Beats, including Bronx, have.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

yeah, I meant to include that in my last post- I was already strongly drifting towards agreeing with you about the Genus issue, and something Alex Garg just pointed out to me brought me all the way to shore. Something that apparently has also been commented on by Greg Weisman at one point, about the sentient gargoyles and the beasts not, er, being able to cross-breed.
Although I would theorize that the beasts were once six-limbed as well, and the wing-limbs "retracted", much like how snakes (and probably the snake-bodied gargs) evolved. I'll have to make an adjustment in my files...thanks for helping me find a more accurate portrayal. : )

Lynati

Lynati> Generally speaking, I'm alright with your classification. Ovinutria, in my mind, could still be descended from the Mammal-like Reptiles, as Monotremes (and the other mammals) are.

My one issue is that both the Gargoyles and the Beats are the same Genus. I have a hard time accepting that. Beasts only have four limbs and a tail, while in general gargoyles have six limbs and a tail. Then you have the intelligence differences, the upright stature of Gargoyles, and the anatomical differences needed to be capable gliders. Putting them in the same Genus seems a stretch. Chimps and Humans seem to be more similiar to each other than Gargs and Beasts and we are not even in the same Genus. In fact, each of the living Great Apes (Humans, Chimps/Bonobos, Gorillas, Orang utans, and Gibbons) are in a seperate Genus.

Alex Garg> I recieved the document, havn't gotten around to reading it yet. I'll let you know.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

Yes, but dogs are all *dogs* and still have different "breeds". And Gargoyles aren't Reptiles; they are Gargates. (I like the "Gargata" way of phrasing it, though). That they nurse their young and that alone should remove them from the reptile classification.
A couple years back when I was really getting into the gargie bio stuff, I came up with this version:
Parent taxa for "Gargoyles"
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum : Vertebrata
Superclass: Hexacroia
Class: Ovinutria
Order: Gargates
Family: Gargidae
Genus : Lithodermus
Species : Lithodermus Sapiens
And
Species : Lithodermus Theros

...and had the "new" terms footnoted. ; ) It was fun, it seemed to fit, and the superclass level supposes a point where all the six-limbed creatures in mythology deviated from the rest of the vertebrates. Gryphons (in some mythologies) would fall under the same Class as gargoyles, those who both lay eggs and nurse their young. (I looked up monotremes, and they are just too under-developed to really work as a class for gargoyles or the other species, even if they also lay eggs and "nurse" their young. monotreme means "one hole", as they only have one to use for both waste and giving birth- they also lack mamaries in the way they tend to be though of, secreting milk directly through their skin and fur instead of through nipples.)

Lynati

AlexGarg> Greg W has said that despite the wide range of anatomical difference we see between Ophelia, Brooklyn, Lexington, Zafiro, and Una for example, they are all one species and gargoyles from all Clans are capable of interbreeding.

At most, I'd say that Gargoyles from a certain Clan, say the Mayan Clan, are a different SUBspecies, but not a seperate species. Subspecies is similiar to race. So there are a variety of gargoyle races, but as far as we know only two surviving Gargate species, Gargoyles and Gargoyle Beasts.

My email is ewoks11@hotmail.com. Sorry, I thought you were just gonna send it as my email is one of the links below. Anyway, look forward to reading it.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

Matt>> Interesting classification. My uneducated work in the matter had Gargates as their own Class, but I think you have a fair explanation. I had also separated gargoyles and gargoyle beasts into a Genus for each.

I'm curious, though, on your thoughts RE: the species level. I had thought that each gargoyle "form" would get its own species class; e.g., Brooklyn would be a "G. rostratus" (beaked) and Zafiro a "G. serpens" (serpent). Would you agree with that, or would you leave that kind of detail to subspecies strata?

Also, Matt, still waiting for you to send along an e-mail addy so I can send you my guess as to the development of the word "gargoyle" as to mean the flesh-and-blood creature of Greg's universe. It's 1,300 words, far too large to paste into the board.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

Hey, everyone. We've extended Gathering 2006 pre-registration by a few more days so that anyone who needs a little more time can get signed up. The new deadline is Wednesday, June 7, 2006. That's good for online orders or orders by mail, with the caveat that anything sent my mail MUST reach us by June 17th.

19 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

*Amateur zoologist enters the Room*

Here is how I'd generally classify them. Maybe Alex Garg could come up with the Latin names. Also, keep in mind that I of the opinion that Gargates are descended from the mammal-like reptiles and this classification reflects that. I'm pretty sure Greg has another idea what Gargates evolved from (and given certain clues in Ask Greg, I could make a good guess on what those animals were). Anyway...

Kingdom Animalia
Phlyum Chordata
Class Reptilia
Subclass Synapsida
Order Gargata
Family (After much thought, I've decided that Gargoyles and Gargoyle Beasts are in the same family, but they are very unlikely to be in the same Genus. This fits with what Greg has said concerning the ancestral relationship or Gargs to Beasts as similiar to humans and chimps; same family, different genus and species.)
Genus (One for the Gargs, one for Gargoyle Beasts.)
Species (Ditto.)

This implies that a group of Reptiles, the Synapsids, evolved into the Mammal-like reptiles perhaps 300 million years ago. The Mammal-like reptiles would be the dominant form of animal life until the Permian extinction and the rise of the Dinosaurs. Before they completley went extinct, however, they diversified into two new major groups, the Mammals which evolved perhaps 200 million years ago, and the Gargates, which could've branched away from the Mammal-like reptiles anytime before they died out about 145 million years ago.

Given all the evidence and my own educated guesses, I'd say that Gargates branched off around 275 million years ago, during the Permian period. This would make them an older group than Dinosaurs/Birds and Mammals. In fact, Gargates may have been the first warm-blooded animals.

All of this is just an educated guess, of course. With more information, I might change things or reorganize them. As I said, I don't think Greg seems the Gargates evolving quite this way, but to me, it seems most likely given what we know so far about Gargates. If Greg gives more info at Ask Greg or in the comics, I may be forced to rework this classification, perhaps drastically.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

HoE>> I took a crack at it a while ago (it came up during the Blue Mug in G'04 and I made a short-lived effort shortly thereafter), but I'm no zoologist so it was pretty much guesswork. For the record, though, I got everything but the Order, and for Class I used "Gargata," so close to your interpretation of "gargate."

But, again, I'll wait for a zoologist to weigh in on this one.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
Kings Play Chess On Funny Glass Stairs

Hehe ok this is a shameless plug. Ignore it if you dont like free gargoyle stuff ;-)

Go to the gargoyle webcomic booth in the dealer room. We will be giving away the old gargoyle action figures and T-shirts and other fun things. Just step up and roll some dice or spin the wheel. See some of the artwork for future comics we have planned.

If anyone is going to comic con. Help us promote gargoyles by giving out gathering stickers and such.

Shara

Hey, just to let everyone know Kieth David turned 50 today.
Reno
There have been other times when a danger upon the world have required the services of certain, singular individuals...

Starlioness> Even if you post here once a month you're no stranger.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!!

V: Was it a grue? They enjoy dark places.

Starlioness: Happy belated birthday.


Something all this Latin talk has got me thinking about: has anyone ever tried to classify gargoyles under Linnaeus's system? Kingdom would be Animal, obviously. I'm pretty sure they have all the traits to go under Phylum Chordata. Greg has said that they're "gargates," which sounds to me like it would be a class. Unless it's Order Gargatia, and gargoyles have their own unique Class, as well. But beyond that, I'm stumped. Unless this whole thing is as pointless as trying to define the Third Race under binomial nomenclature.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Do what must be done, Lord Bush. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy." -Darth Cheney.

thanks everybody, *blows out candles* .. don't worry about it being belated.. I don't post here that often.. so it would feel weird saying happy birthday to a stranger I guess *shrugs*
starlioness

**********HANDS OVER A BIG CAKE WITH A LOT OF CANDLES ON IT**********

Starlioness, HAPPY (belated) BIRTHDAY!!! MAKE A WISH!!!

Hoppe you had a great day!!!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!!

HoE> Thanks. I'll read it and leave a response. :)

Kevin> I agree with The Sadistic Cow. You're forcefully driving a point that, frankly, I think no one else even cares about now. LET IT GO. Please.

Starlioness? Happy birthday. ;)

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Kevin: Story time, m'lad!

Once there were three goats.

They were brothers, and they were called the Billy Goats Gruff.

One day, the Billy Goats Gruff were on their way to their most favorite patch of pasture.

On their way there, they came to the river, and across the river was built a big stone bridge.

They tried to cross the bridge, but there was something meeeeeaaaaan under it.

Can you guess what it was? o.o

V

Kevin - Dude... please. Just let it DROP.

You're beating a dead horse, man. Let it go.

The Sadistic Cow
The one thing dead people are good at is floating in the water and they're wasting money by buyin' 'em cushions! - Richard Jeni

No, I didn't Alex. I quoted only the roots. Here, for your benefit I will type out the ENTIRE entry of gargoyle since you seem to have problems understanding that I did not enter a definition:

garg-goyle (gar'goil) 1. a grotesquely carved figure of a human or animal. 2. a spout, terminating in a grotesque representation of a human or animal figure with open mouth, projecting from the gutter of a building for throwing rain water clear of a building.

Those are the definition portions.

NOW here is the root word and meaning portion (the entomological portion)

(1250-1300; ME gargoile < OF gargouille, gargoule lit., throat; see GARGLE) -- gar'goyled, adj.

Now I'll break this down for you:

ME = Middle English

< OF is the universal dictionary notation stating the root meaning/word of gargoyle

lit. = literal definition of the root meaning.

gargouille, gargoule lit., throat;

Is one block of roots separated and ending in ;

Finally, the second Root Phrase entry is marked by == SEE GARGLE.


Dude, these are roots, ok? That's how dictionaries list roots. If you don't believe me, go get the dictionary, read the introduction then read the entries.

Let me find it for you:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0760749752&itm=1

What I did with those words, alex, was I completely deleted the definitions under the entries and just posted the roots. If I had written the definitions out, I would've noted they were definitions as I did with this post.

I did not write the definitions.

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Starlioness: Happy birthday! ^_^
Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee@yahoo.com]
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." - Groucho Marx

You quoted both, and you're using both incorrectly.

Furthermore, while I have, in fact, looked at your sources, you've shown absolutely no evidence that you've looked at mine. If you won't respect my side of the debate, I will no longer respect yours; therefore, our conversation is over.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

Kevin>> No, that's not how you look up roots. That's how you look up definitions. The definitions ARE right; you are abusing them with non sequitur and post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacies.


ummm sorry alex, but the roots of the words are those contained in the brackets after the word, I suggest you actually look at those dictionaries I cited before you tell me that I quoted the definitions when I quoted the roots. Thanks

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Wow, I'm surprised no one wished a happy birthday to Starlioness. This may be a little late but HAPPY BIRTHDAY STARLIONESS. We all wish you a very happy birthday XD
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
My friend got a python with a 300 chrisler kit on it and whenever he stops at a red light, the rims stay still but the car starts moving................oh, and one more thing.....DON'T THINK ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kingcobra: Sorry this took so long, but here's the URL you requested from me earlier.

http://me-262.livejournal.com/751.html

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"When Jesus was president, he ate babies all the time."

Patrick>> Which is the explanation I have for Matt. (:)

But since we're on it, well, we're on it; though I'm just about ready to let it go.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

May I also point out that you're applying real-world etymology to a fictional universe? What's to say that the origins of the word "gargoyle" would be the same here as they are in the alternate reality of the show?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]

Matt>> I have a very long answer/speculation for you. Too long, in my opinion, to be pasted here. E-mail me (fiatnox@gmail.com) for it.

Kevin>> No, that's not how you look up roots. That's how you look up definitions. The definitions ARE right; you are abusing them with non sequitur and post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacies.

And there is one very critical flaw in your line of logic that I missed before: "garg." is NOT a word, it's an ABBREVIATION for "gargle," which is derived from "gargarisma."

Even the definition you provided shows that: "garg., (in prescriptions) a gargle." That period after garg and before the comma means it is an abbreviation. But GARG, on its own, is NOT a word - it is "descended" from NOTHING; I already told you this.

And as for this: "Now I say probably because I can't read french so I do not have a french dictionary that tells me the root for gargouille. Howver, considering the fact that Gargouille is a parent of Gargoyle, and Gargoyle is directly descendant from Garg. which in turn is directly descendant of Gargarisma, I bet you dimes to doughnuts that Gargouille is descendant from Gargarisma."

This will be the SECOND time I have provided this link for you, which also explains GARG - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gargle. Copy it into your browser window, read it, and come back to me.

Do not say another word to me until you've followed that URL.

And your language tree is also wrong. English is Germanic, not Romantic. It fuses with French and, thus, the Romantic tree as a result of the Norman invasion of 1066, but it is distinctly Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

I know the question wasn't asked of me, but I gotta say--

English didn't exist in 950 AD. It was something much stranger. I just ignore language connotations in any production prior to 1400 AD and give a lot of leeway.

There was a term for gargoyle back then I am sure of it, especially since water spouts coming out from buildings have been in play since before greece.

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

To the other guy: Yeah, well, depends on the person and the area I guess. My mom used to play in the local pool league, and two of the bars involved in the league were gay bars, one was called Pinkies (lesbian bar), forget the other name, anyway, yeah, term Fay is used a lot, so is Butch among different people. That doesn't mean they are calling the person a biological fairy or well.. whatever butch means. Usually the terms are used as a form of endearment so unless you have friends who are gay you probably won't ever hear these terms used like that. That's besides the point I was making, however.

There are literal definitions and metaphorical definitions. Humanity 9 times out of 10 is a metaphor representing the qualities humans value above all others.

To Alex: well, I'm sorry but the definitions I did provide had a definite link between gargoyle to garg./gargle, garg/gargle are the root words for gargoyle. IF you don't believe that's true, like I said, feel free to send an email or hand letter to the dictionaries I provided.

Gargoyle/Garg.,/Gargle all have the root meaning of throat. Gargle itself (gargoyle's root word) is literally throat.

GARG. (the earliest form of GARGLE) is in fact from gargarisma thing.

I'm sorry but that's how you look up root words in the dictionary and that's what all my dictionaries say.

Gargouille literally means throat.

So, we have Gargoyle with the root being GARG. and GARGLE and we also have the french parent words(gargouille and gargoule) amd a;; fpir pf these words and parents literally mean Throat. Not only that but GARG. is directly descendant of the root gargarisma which literally means throat.

The parental tree probably looks like this:

Latin....Gargarisma
|..................|
French-----|------English
|................|
French---------English
....................|-English

Now I say probably because I can't read french so I do not have a french dictionary that tells me the root for gargouille. Howver, considering the fact that Gargouille is a parent of Gargoyle, and Gargoyle is directly descendant from Garg. which in turn is directly descendant of Gargarisma, I bet you dimes to doughnuts that Gargouille is descendant from Gargarisma.

Especially considering all of these parent words and roots mean Throat. I mean, Garg = Throat.

Now, if you want to argue that they are not each others roots and parents that's fine, but I'm not the one whith whom you should argue. You'd do better sending a letter to Harper Collins, Barnes and Nobel (publishers of Websters New Universal Unabridged Dictionary), and Random House (publishers of American Collegate).


I guarantee you 1 thing though-- if this were an language like Japanese, there'd be no argument. The iconic language would flat out show you the root since it is iconic rather than phonetic.


As for riding my back, yeah I know what hazing is and energetic arguing which is what we've been doing... but here's an example of what I was irritated with-- saying I was bringing racist terms to the messageboard. Especially when it was absolutely clear in context I was comparing a direct parallel (I mean really, that's when I think, grow up.). If gargoyles did exist, you would not say anything like "acting like a gargoyle". But since there are nice people on the board i'm just gonna ignore those other comments from now on.


To the nice cookie lady:


COOKIES :munches nice warm cookies:

I love cookies.

Can't be chocolate cause I get headaches from chocolate :(

!:D I like surgar cookies though!

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin> "You don't really think gay guys who call themselves fay are saying they are real life biological fairies."
-The real question is what gay guys call themselves 'fay'? I've known a lot of gay guys and I have never heard one of them refer to themselves as fay before. Oh well, maybe the gay boys call themselves fay in your neck of the woods...

Alex Garg> Interesting stuff. I have a question for you. You've mentioned that the word gargoyle didn't come into use until the 12th or 13th centuries, and yet of course we hear the term in casual and common use in Scotland circa 950AD and presumably earlier. So, what would you think is the Gargoyles Universe explanation of this? Just curious if you have any thoughts about that.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

and now for something completley different..

today is my birthday (whoo:p)28 years on this planet

*put a candle on one of Battle Beast's cookies*

That is all...

Starlioness - [starlion3@yahoo.com]

Patrick: English is especially funny. Among other things, I especially like how someone can have matrices or verteces, but not indeces. And I guess that's also why I've been guilty of unintentionally making up the word glid. You could say someone slid or hid.

Fotunately, I'm able to suspend disblief when watching "Gargoyles", and not puzzle too much over why the gargoyles don't find modern English so damn confounding (except for the odd "de-tect-ive" or "con-vict-ed").

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"When Jesus was president, he ate babies all the time."

Uff, you ALL who has post more than three times these week have a lot of free time. Kevin...well, hi kevin. I would like to remark how funny are a few thinks i`ve read. including the "hi kevin welcome to the site" and the post where some nice and inteligent person told him to be carefull with the racial languaje ("black and withe way of acting") I`ve post on these site a few times and noone EVER said welcome. No one answered my posts and im sure if i would written that demona and elisa were fu**** in highmoon while coldstone was attacking macbeth no one woudl say anything to me. I DONT KNOW WHY THE HELL I AM POSTING THESE!!!!!!. But well i gotta try. About the most ironic way demona and macbeth could die, ye are wrong. They could be married already, he finally carried her to the room and while they are making up, the linked feelings make him suffer a hard attack and they both die....I dont know why im so frustrated for not be answer for someone who can get so mad to someone (who is wrong i know) that is saying something different and that maybe is only mistaken. As for me, ignore me so, dont care anymore.
Demon@ - [Adios mundo, ya me voy]

i`v reread my ost and now i know why no one anserwed ever...XD i write all fast and never reread before hitting submit IM SORRY
Demon@ - [Adios mundo, ya me voy]

Uff, you ALL who has post more than three times these week have a lot of free time. Kevin...well, hi kevin. I would like to remark how funny area few thinks ai read. including the "hi kevin welcome to the site" and the post where some nice and inteligent person told him to be carefull with the racial languaje ("black and withe way of acting") I`ve post on these site a few times and never ever said welcome. No one answered my posts and im sure if i would written that demona and elisa were fu**** in highmoon while coldstone was attacking macbeth no one woudl say anything to me. I DONT KNOW WHY THE HELL I AM POSTING THESE!!!!!!. But well i gotta try. About the most ironic way demona and macbeth could day, ye are wrong they could be married already, he finally carried her to the room and while they are making up the linked feelings make him suffer a hard attack and they both die....I dont know why i frustrate myself over someone wheo can get so mad to someone (who is wrong i know) that is saying something different and that maybe is only mistaken. As for me, ignaro me so, dont care anymore.
Demon@ - [Adios mundo, ya me voy]

Did anyone offer Kevin a Cookie??? *HAnd over a plate of assorted Cookies* Welcome!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! ... ...

*blinks at all the etymology and Demona-Macbeth discussion*

Well, I can't say it was another slow week. Kevin, welcome to the site. Interesting dialogue going on here. All I can say about the etymology is what my early Modern history teacher told me, "Beware of false friends" -- in regards to this one word in Louis the XIV's unification quote I can't remember right. Just because it looks like an English equivalent, and may be rooted in the same original word, they can mean different things.

Wow, 20 days to the Gathering. It's so close! *starts thinking about what to bring*

Asatira

Assuming that because two words sound similar or are spelled similarly that they must be related can lead to an awful lot of false conclusions. Language is funny that way. Words don't always evolve in a straightforward logical manner, and word meanings can change over time.

Today is the last day to pre-register for the convention.
20 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

Finally, five minutes to make a post. I'd post far more often and in-depth if I had the time. This discussion has been very energetic, the CR hasn't been this active in a long time. I love debate, and Kevin has really stirred things up (in a fairly good way, quite frankly). It's like seeing a decrepit old man spring to life. ^_^

On another note, The first ten minutes of COS part two has given me over a thousand screenshots I like. The number is obviously going to be cut down a bit, but this is an example of how massive the gallery will be on my website.

&#9679;Demona and Macbeth's Deaths&#9679;
The way I see their final demise is this: A few centuries in the future, Demona is at peace with herself. She's given up her old hatreds/grudges/psychopathic tendencies and admitted fault for her actions.... She and Macbeth are on good terms, their old friendship renewed. Romance blossoms. The future seems bright (eternity looks a lot nicer when you've got someone to share it with). They finally marry. All is right with the world when *ominous music* tragedy strikes. He's carrying her up the stairs when he trips, drops her, she falls at an odd angle, croaks, and he croaks with her because the spell judges him as being responsible. It would be the most horrible ironic way for them to die.

&#9679;Macbeth and Demona's Passionate Lusty Lovin' in City of Stone&#9679;
I've got that version too! I've seen it with my own eyes! The rest of you are just jealous because YOUR version doesn't have that scene. Poor Gruoch, her grief! Her anger! The instant she got her first grey hair, her husband got himself a mistress. Then another. And a couple dozen more after that. Then Demona came along, and made herself the ONLY mistress (she's not gonna share her kingly hunk of man-love, even with his wife). That's why Macbeth and Gruoch only have one kid together - he ignored her shortly after she turned 30. Half the castle was populated by his illegitimate children. Heck, during the scenes in the present, it's revealed that most of the people on the PLANET are descended from him (he made it his mission in life to 'get around'). Do you people really think a guy like that wouldn't notice a fiery-haired babe in skimpy clothing? Tsk. You guys are SO naive.

Almost 3 am...

G'night people...

Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee@yahoo.com]
"Together we will triumph!" - Demona

Kevin>> On a final note before I resign:

It's cool that you're excited about the comic book - we all are - so please don't be so quick to take our challenges to your lines of arguments as us unfairly riding you. This is a forum where we all share a common interest, yes, but like any other such place there will be disagreements.

If you must, since you're new, just consider it hazing.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
Hazing - It's an international tradition, Rat.

Kevin>> Your curtness wasn't *entirely* not directed at me. There's this comment from earlier:

"All I'm saying is if -Alex- has a problem with the word gargoyle being connected with latin for throat or whatever, then I'd rather he stop blaming me. I'm copying dictionary definitions. If Alex doesn't agree he can write to the dictionary publishers and correct them on their root listings over bashing me saying I got it wrong."

I have neither bashed you *nor* said your definitions, or your dictionaries' definitions, are wrong. I have been arguing the process.

Moving on: The problem with English is that it doesn't take into account subtleties. So because a number of words simply mean "throat," or are related to the throat, literally or otherwise, doesn't mean that all of their variations link together neatly on an etymological path.

Because misquotes have been a problem recently, this is WORD for WORD your first statement on the matter:

"I'd also like to point out that the earliest form of the word Gargoyle is 1250 AD, prior to that it was Gargarisma (latin).

So, I guess you can say Gargarity (gar gair ity) or gargarian in exchange for humanity if you really want. ---But the meaning of gargarisma is ***projection from a building,*** and so, well, that's not very descriptive.---" Emphasis added.

I have shown, and you have agreed, that gargarisma is *not* defined as such. This last post of yours just defined gargarisma as "gargle." That's really, in fact, all I was ever getting at, but this thread turned into so much more - so let's continue.

If the string of definitions you posted show anything, it's that the only thing gargoyle, gargouille, gargarisma and gargle have in common is "garg," which is nothing more than onomatopoeia - when one gargles, or does much of anything with the throat, the "garg" sound is uttered. What better way to create a word than to use what the thing it is describing sounds like?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gargle

What your dictionaries failed to show, however, but the online source that I provided you did, is that the roots of gargouille are GARG (just a gutteral) and GULA, which means throat (e.g., juGULAr). And gargouille, as I said originally and you now appear to agree with, is where we get gargoyle.

Gargle, or any of its forms, just isn't in the picture - other than the common gutteral.

HOWEVER, it does not follow, then, to say that GULA is the root word of gargoyle, because GULA was never used in that fashion. The French of the 13th century needed to name the new architectural form for their cathedrals, and so used a word related to things of the throat.

Furthermore, while gargarismo and gargoyle MAY be cousins, it does not follow that gargarisma is the foundation of gargoyle. Again, gargoyle is "waterspout," and gargarisma is "gargle," as is the verb from which it is derived. This is evidenced by the fact that modern Romantic languages use a direct descendant of gargarisma (gargarismo) to describe a gargle, not a gargoyle.

You're not screwing up definitions, but you're not streaming the roots together properly. Matching up word cousins and claiming a root is not sound etymology (ENTOMOLOGY is the study of insects; ETYMOLOGY is the study of words and their evolution). You have to take into account how the root words were used, their modern uses, and whether or not definitions changed.

Gargouille is a 13th century construction and uses a relevant Latin root; HOWEVER, that does not mean that gula, much less gargarisma, is then itself the root of gargoyle. Gargoyle began with gargouille, not gula, and not gargarisma, and the definitions you just provided show that.

Just because all those words are related to the throat doesn't necessarily mean that they are then related to each other. They are used differently to mean different yet precise things - and that has to be taken into account.

Your dictionaries aren't wrong, they just aren't showing you the whole picture.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
As I said before: You can create a gargarisma in your gula, but that doesn't make you a gargouille.

UM.....so ya....

Who's looking forward to seeing Elisa and Goliath's halloween double date in the comics? That's gotta be fun! XD

Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
<=== visit my RP site....XD....

ps alex, I wasn't directing my curtness at you.

And you don't have to swear a loyalty oath to me :D

Kevin Conner - [DalbozOfGurth@aol.com]

To begin with, I want to say that I have to use (aa) to denote long vowel sounds-- i.e. vowels with a - over them.

While I consider Alex to have been civil on the boards, many others have not and my good humor is waning on some of you internet-rodeo cowboys.

Reader's guide to understanding dictionaries (found at the beginning of all dictionaries)
1. Numerical Entries do not denote most commonly used, they are parsing notations of a definition tree.
2. lit. = literally
3. Dates when given denote the earliest use of the word in any tongue.
4. ME = Middle English
5. OF denotes root of origin.

Websters New Universal Unabridged Dictionary
ISBN 0-7607-4975
pg 788
gar-goyle (1250-1300; ME gargoile < OF gargouille, gargoule lit., throat; see gargle)

gar-gle (1520-1530)

********obviously not earliest use form of the word gargle.. No, in fact, earlier than gargle is in fact********

garg., (in prescriptions) a gargle ( < L gargarisma)

*********From Latin gargarisma**************

*****Now let's go back to gargle and make absolutely sure that gargle is from garg., or another latin root which is in reference to throat********

The American College Dictionary
Random House publishing
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number : 70-115027

Page 500
right column

gar-gle (t. F:m. gargouiller, der. gargouille -throat. Cf. L gurgulio gullet)

*******That pesky throat reference keeps coming up*********

gar-goyle (ME gargulye, t. OF: m. gargouille, gargoule, appar. the same word as gargouille - throat. See gar-gle)

*****Harper Collins Latin Concise Dictionary (Can't find my langescheidt's dictionary I had earlier but this will have to do. This one is a bit condensed.)****

gargle vi gargariss(aa)re
gargariss(aa)re becomes gargarisma when the suffix is changed. All mean the same basic thing.
THROAT.

Why does gargoyle come from root language meaning throat? Even in english partial entomology of Gargoyle literally means THROAT. Hence the definition containing the abbr. lit. lit. means literally.

That's easy- early gargoyle spouts exited water through the throat. They even have a pretty little picture diagram in Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary demonstrating this fact.

Now, if you have a problem with the entomology of Gargoyle, I seriously suggest you write to these publishing houses. Blame them for their mistake.

www.randomhouse.com
www.barnesandnoble.com (Publishers of Webster's new universal unabridged dictionary)
www.collinsdictionaries.com

If you want to ride my back for making a mistake, just one mistake, a mistake I at least admitted that I was wrong, then go ahead.

But don't sit on your rump telling me I am screwing up a dictionary definition, over which I have no control, that says, on the page, in black and white - (lit.) literary definition.

I came to the website because I was excited about the comic book. I make a mistake and I have people riding my back on everything I say afterwards. Real mature. Not only that there are several of you who constantly said I called the gargoyles humans- something I never did.

Seriously, if you have a problem with the dictionary definitions and roots of the word gargoyle- don't bring it up with me. Write a letter to those publishers.

I (among others) did that when an idiot from Oxford screwed up by going on a rant about the phrase "short lived". He did so on Charlie Rose without realizing that there are two phrases "short lived" and "short lived" spelled exactly the same, from two separate root phrases, and pronounced completely different.

Oxford released a retraction on his statements a week after his talk show appearance because people wrote in telling them they were wrong. So like I said. If you have a valid complaint about the dictionary roots of gargoyle, then please, notify the dictionary people, don't ride me like a pony because I didn't write it.


To Alex:

As for the reason why you probably can't find the latin name for gargoyle -- (rome did have decoartive water spouts-- i.e. gargoyles in their architecture), is probably because you've been looking for a direct translation.

I find most latin dictionaries list this term as a variation of Pr(ee)st(ee)r or Prester.

I can't find my Latin Word tank. But I know I saw a variation of the use of water spout which was translated as meaning gargoyle. I suggest if you are really interested in tracking exotic gargoyle figurines and terms you should check out architectural books of the ancient world. Ancient architectural terms are usually found in books which specialize in that category :)

Kevin Conner - [DalbozOfGurth@aol.com]

Alex Garg - *sniffs around your feet*

Is that logic I smell, with the slight hint of brains wafting my way? Reminds me a bit of a nice, juicy steak. XD

The Sadistic Cow
They told me I was crazy, but I really think it's them.

Alex Garg: There's a lot of things I don't know about a lot of people. I'm just going to have to start having more conversations with you all. ; )
Lynati

Lynati>> There are lots of things you don't know about me :)
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

If you could definitively track the development of words through the study of insects, you might well get that oath. But in the off chance that ants and crickets don't reveal much etymological proof, how about just giving me those ISBNs/authors now?

Or more simply put: I've laid out my proof of the words' development for all to see, why be so secretive with yours?

Right now, I and my sources - available for your browsing in the links below - show that gargarisma was defined by the Romans as "gargle" and is currently defined by Italians and Spanish as the same with the modern form of the word, gargarismo. No "gargoyles." This is further evidenced by the fact that in Italian - again, the closest modern relative of Latin - gargoyle does not have its own word (or I have yet to see one, anyway); it is instead grónda sporgente, "protruding gutter."

Gargouille (garg + gula (L. "throat"), on the other hand, developed in 13th century France with the rise of gothic architecture and the appearance of, surprise, gargoyles, and is defined as either "throat" or "waterspout," which is what gargoyles essentially are. The presence of a Latin root in gargouille's construction is merely to describe what the new sculpture was, a kind of throat; not because the Romans conceived of gargoyles and the French carried on that tradition - or else it would stand to reason that there would be an equivalent in Italian, which there is not.

But in all of this, gargarisma just doesn't hold up as the root word for gargoyle. The Romans didn't use it to describe gargoyles or other architectural forms, and neither do today's Italians, Spanish, French, Portugese (http://www.ultralingua.net/yd/ydindex.html?action=define&sub=1&searchtype=stemmed&text=gargarismo&service=portuguese2english), nor, I imagine, Romanians.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
You can create a gargarisma in your gula, but that doesn't make you a gargouille.

PS Greg Rulez

tyvm

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Alex Garg: I can see you starting to get sucked in, so I feel like I have to comment....You've seen how defensive he became over the Macbeth/Demona thing, do you really want to get into anything with him where he thinks he has actual proof? Don't rise to his subtle "you knowledge is inferior to mine" plays, especially when he has already shown how easily he gets his facts mixed up. You'll just wind up being up all night like some of us where yesterday, and in the end you still won't get him to admit there is even a chance he might be wrong. The D/M "my love" thing has virtually already destroyed his credibility, and I've never seen you resort to quoting unrelated sci-fi to try to prove a point about Gargoyles. And wow, I didn't know that you studied languages liek that; do you think you might be up to beta some butchered latin in the near future? If you are, drop me a line in LJ.
Lynati

uh god I said greg I meant alex. I WAS NOT ADDRESSING GREG-- it's 11pm and I am very tired, I meant to say ALEX not GREG. tyvm
Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

All I'm saying is if Greg has a problem with the word gargoyle being connected with latin for throat or whatever, then I'd rather he stop blaming me. I'm copying dictionary definitions. If Alex doesn't agree he can write to the dictionary publishers and correct them on their root listings over bashing me saying I got it wrong.

God knows I did that with oxford when they had that idiot publisher screw up on the definition of short lived (neglecting the two completely different roots and pronounciations and phrase meanings of the same spelling). :)

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Nice one, Kevin.

So much for Greg W's. observation that things were staying civl in here...

Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.

Alex, if I show you the root words and how they are tracked through entomology, I will even give you the ISBNs of my books, will you swear a loyalty oath to me as your one true god?
}D

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin>> I'm well aware of French's Romantic roots. Before I went to politics and journalism I was studying to be a classical historian, and I supplimented my studies with six years of Latin, two of Attic Greek and two of modern Italian, with some Spanish and French to go along with the load as well. I'm not fluent in those latter four anymore (particularly Greek, Spanish and French), but I've kept my Latin pretty strong and my Italian's not bad.

If AvMists ever gets restored, I should have an article on there with the Latin spells of the show translated and, at times, corrected.

And with that in mind, I'm telling you that the gargarisma -> gargoyle connection is weak at best, particularly that the modern Italian - that language being a much better modern equivalent of Latin than French - *and* Spanish words gargarismo have no connection to gargoyles; they translate to "gargle," which is the most common definition of that word in its original Latin. Whatever dictionary you're using (BTW, which?) is bastardizing the definition.

Further weakening the connection is that the Romans wouldn't have necessarily *had* a word for gargoyles. Gargoyles as we know them - the glorified waterspout variety, not animated - weren't popular in Europe until gothic cathedrals started popping up, say beginning in the 12th century, not too long after which the word "gargouille" appears in the Old French lexicon, which is a combination of (garg), an imitation of a gutteral sound, and - at best to Latin - (gula), which as I noted earlier means "throat." It's just not a word one would - or should - expect the Romans to have had, because they didn't have a need for it. Language is nothing if not a reflection of society.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gargoyle - Etymology dictionary entry for "Gargoyle"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gargle - Etymology dictionary entry for "Gargle"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=la - Tufts' *extensive* English-Latin search database with more than 1.5 million searchable Latin words.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=la&lookup=gargle&type=begin&options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&.submit=Do+Search - Result for "gargle"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=la&lookup=gargoyle&type=begin&options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&.submit=Do+Search - Result for "gargoyle"

Believe me, finding the Latin word for gargoyle was an obsession of mine for some time when I first got into Latin, and I'm here to tell you that there just isn't one.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

Hey, Alex Garg - <-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends
-----------------------------------

French is a latin language. Latin created french. Gargoyle is an evolution from the root latin word (which is what I repeated from my little english-latin dictionary). So there is a little more to the connection between the root and definitions than spelling.


But that's really neither here nor there, the point I am making is that humanity is not a species specific term when used as that form of adjective (same thing with "fay". You don't really think gay guys who call themselves fay are saying they are real life biological fairies.)


Now anyway the point of the entomology of Gargoyle, is well, the word itself isn't a good adjective to define common nature you may share with someone else. While humanity used as an adjective means all sorts of things that are considered just an inch below of the divine.

Ok here's another example.

Ever watch Andromeda? Genetically altered humans called themselves nietzschian. When they would be talking to a human they'd say: That's very nietzschian of you. They aren't calling the regular humans nietzschians, they are saying that human possesses qualities that nietzschians prize.

We as viewers don't question it because we know who nietzsche is and general types of his philosophy.

Kevin - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Warcrafter : I do hope you're excluding me when you're talking about smart posts.
Spen
Why do people always use sports metephors when they want you to do somthing stupid? - David Swaine

wow, all of these posts seem so smart. Not that im dumb but, (i can't believe im saying this) im not what we call an expert on gargoyles. I only know a lot about what HAPPENED ON the show (note what I capitalized). I dont know that much about what was learned and supposedly happened that wasn't shown on tv. That explains why I don't make many smart gargoyle related posts.

Also, on an unrelated topic, is anyone watching the Jetix Hero Awards today. When the power rangers were passing out awards, I clearly saw Demona as an audience member.

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
My friend got a python with a 300 chrisler kit on it and whenever he stops at a red light, the rims stay still but the car starts moving................oh, and one more thing.....DON'T THINK ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, we also know that in the Gargoyles Universe, the Atlantean word for "gargoyle" was "gorlois" (Greg Weisman has mentioned it at "Ask Greg"). It may or may not be a coincidence that the name "Gorlois" was also borne by the Duke of Cornwall whom Igraine (King Arthur's mother) was married to prior to Uther Pendragon - and one of whose castles was Tintagel, which Greg Weisman has stated was the real-life model for Castle Wyvern.

A French legend also claims that the word "Gargoyle" was derived from a mythical dragon named Gargouille, who was defeated and slain during the Dark Ages by the Archbishop of Rouen. Afterwards, the Archbishop cut off the dragon's head and stuck it over the town gates of Rouen, supposedly giving rise to the custom of gargoyle statuary (though I suspect that the story of Gargouille was one of those legends devised to explain a custom which had been around for so long that nobody now knows how it got started).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Greg>> Those ellipses are going to have me guessing for a long time.

Kevin>> Gargarisma, -ismum means "a gargle," participle of the verb gargarizare, "to gargle"; the words survive today in Italian - without definitions changed - as gargarismo and gargissare respectively.

Gargoyle comes from the Old French word gargouille, which means "throat" and/or "waterspout," which is what gargoyles are (our gargoyles are closer to grotesques in their stone form, but that's not as cool a show title). The closest matching word in Latin on that is gula, which means "throat."

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

51 more questions until Ask Greg processes all the Gathering 2004 journals.

Patrick - <Guess what what happens in three weeks> So much to do, so little time.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I'd also like to point out that the earliest form of the word Gargoyle is 1250 AD, prior to that it was Gargarisma (latin).

So, I guess you can say Gargarity (gar gair ity) or gargarian in exchange for humanity if you really want. But the meaning of gargarisma is projection from a building, and so, well, that's not very descriptive.

Considering the word humanity describes positive aspects less than divine, it probably should be a word which possesses a quality that gargoyles highly regard. Goliath is all about honor, and the gargoyles are always trying to learn new things (lex and his electronics/equipment, goliath and theologians and philsosphy and liberal arts, and then there's Hudson and Broadway basically fixing their regret of not being able to read....

Using an old english word tank here are some words and their meanings-- so if you absolutely hate the idea of using the prefist "human-" with anything associated with gargoyles, you can create your own term:

rihtwis - righteous
m(oo)d - intellect
raed - wisdom
(aa)r, inwyrcan, maernes - honor
bilewit - gentle/kind
fremsumnes - kindness
(aa)rfaest, glaed, mildelic - kind
(d)earlm(oo)d - mighty
(aa)werian, ge- beorgan, ge- ealgian, fri(d)ian, gri(d)ian, healdan - protect

If you think of any other adjectives to describe the good qualities of gargoyles then I'll look up their translation.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

:s guess I'm wrong but I thought for sure I saw the giant winged freak kissin Macbeth.

GW well thanks. Sorry I caused all the fuss, I thought for sure that's what I saw but I guess I'm wrong.

But umm.. I did do a big report on the defintiion of humanity once, it sucks that my conversation in the chat room last night is totally gone. I'm only gonna repeat a small chunk of what I said.

Humanity comes form latin humanitas, humanuous, humanus and humane.

Humanuous has a non-latin root means possession of wisdom (hard to track down this root).

no definition of humanitas means human species.
humanitas : gentleness.
humanitas : kindness, culture, refinement.

humanus : pertaining to man, humane, humane, cultured, refined.

Then there's the antonyms:
inhumanitas : curelty, inhumanity/ incivility, discourtesy/ stinginess.
inhumanus : cruel, savage, barbarous, inhuman, uncivil, uncivilized.

I do know Goliath has some low opinions of her I am pretty sure cruelty is one of them. But only you can say for sure.

Synonyms:
clementia : indulgence, forbearance, humanity, mercy, gentleness, etc.
crudelitas : cruelty, inhumanity.



Now many of these reference "human species" but the references are and I quote from Websters concerning using the "human-" prefix in idioms and language context:

"Human may refer to that which is, or should be, characteristic of human beings. In thus describing characteristics, human may refer to good and bad traits of a person alike (human kindness; human weakness). When emphasis is placed upon the latter, human is thought of as contrasted to divine:"

i.e. In this order: Divinity, Humanity (possessing qualities not quite divine or in contrast to the divine), Animalism, Inanimate.

"Humane, (the original spelling of "human" and since 1700 restricted in meaning), takes into account only the nobler or gentler aspects of people adn is often contrasted to their ignoble or brutish aspect. A human person is benevolent in treating fellow humans or helpless animals; the word once had also connotations of courtesy and refinment (hence, the application of humane to those branches of learning intended to refine the mind)."

Even in Ancient Rome when Latin was used every day, the proper term for specifically stating something or someone was of the human species was:

genus hominum : human race.
or
homo hominis : human being, man.

All other meanings referenced that which is identified from the point of view of what is not quite divine. You will even find the contrasting terms from the humane root when used in discussion of the gods. Gods aren't human.

In otherwords, Human- prefix is used as a metaphor more often than it is to denote someone of a human species.

Japanese is also a perfect example of the use of a "specie related term" to describe attitude/learning/wisdom/emotions in others. In japan, Commander Data is considered a person (jin) sometimes outsider (gaijin) or even in some circles he is considered completely human (ningen). It should also be noted that the japanese language, for many hundreds of years, refered to anyone outside appearance or anyone who moved away from japan to not be of their definition of human. At worst you were a demon, at best you were a gaijin.

The concept of the term human (translated from many many languages) is always a social concept. Rarely biologically specific. I mean, very, very rarely.

Further proof of that would be strict jewish observers. Some who are a followers of strict Judaism considered themselves to be Jewish in terms of species. Few people even think about that. But even then, use of any term with the prefix "human-" isn't excluded from their identity.


Goliath is humane in social attitude, and is a study of the humanities. Regardless of the fact he is a gargoyle it does not change his relative attitude, thought process, or qualities of wisdom, knowledge and philosophy. That doesn't mean I'm calling him a human. If anything it's an recognition of him being one step below divinity regardless of his biological species.

Having said that, can people stop telling me that I called the Gargoyles humans? It's starting to get irritating. I never said they were humans.


Now, unless gargoyles have a word equivilent to Humanity but specific to the gargoyle species (I'm betting it'd be old english since that's the language spoken at the last time Goliath encountered humans prior to being frozen in stone), then humanity will just have to include Gargoyles.

!:D

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Ah, phooey. So much for the idea that there was a director's cut of CoS floating around someplace.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The access code is... your mom."

Just for the record... in "City of Stone"... Demona and Macbeth never kiss. They never call each other "my love". And Gruoch never watches them make out (or anything like that) through a window.

As others have noted, the closest they come to an even vaguely romantic moment (and it's a stretch to call this romantic, honestly) is the moment when Demona lifts Macbeth up in the air after a military victory.

I tend to agree with Patrick that on the 'human' stuff, we're really just arguing semantics. Confusing humane (which you have to admit in this context is a fairly speciest word) and human. The latter being a biological AND social distinction and the former being a value judgment of sorts.

I do appreciate... REALLY appreciate... how generally civil the dialogue has remained. People have disagreed, which is fine. But it all seems pretty calm. Thank you.

Greg Weisman

Maybe because Kevin has seen the episodes all out of order he thought Demona had alwaysturned to human during the day and thus thought Mac was talking to a human Demona when he was actually talking to Gruoch. Thats only a guess of course.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

Dragomir: I wouldn't think that Angela or Demona would, though if Dominique put some on before going to the office I wouldn't find that too surprising. I haven't watched Hunter's Moon in a while so I couldn't say I remember it one way or the other of if I'm thinking of a TGS story, but I thought there was a scene where it showed Demona blinking and she was wearing eyeliner. Other than that, I'd say she didn't. No real reason they couldn't, just no reason probably.

And wow, it's like an essay contest this week. Demona/MacBeth never said love to one another. She threatens him a few times before they are bonded. Something along the lines of "that is why I do not crush you where you stand." In CoS IV, Act 2 she picks up Mac and tiwrls him around a few times. He laughs and when she puts him down he bows to her and says "my lady." Ain't no smooching in either scene. Despite being a Demonaphile, I really can't point to ANYthing in CoS that suggest Demona was getting it on with Mac.

Reno
There have been other times when a danger upon the world have required the services of certain, singular individuals...

Christine= Sadly I have never played that game, but have heard good things about it.

KingCobra= Thanks man, and I look forward to seeing your Lex pics if you find them, (:

Everyone= This is gonna sound silly guys, but cab anybody here tell me if female gargoyles wear lipstick? Or is the pinkish coloration of their lips natural? I can't imagine Demona or Angela spending excessive time primping in a mirror, always thought gargs weren't as hung up on their looks as humans (hence their habit of dressing in nothing but loin clothes without shame, lol). I just noticed in the Avalon flashbacks of hatchling Angela that her lips were purple instead of pink, so I was wondering if the lips of female gargs change color as they grow older, or if they actually have garg gal cosmetics to apply to their lips to look more attractive to males (lookout boys, lol). Anywho, feel free to answer or simply poke fun at my odd question (P.S. what is up with all the essay long posts this week?)

Dragomir
"They're bbbaacckkk..." says the creepy kid from Poltergeist as me and my friends cosplaying as One Piece pirates enter the room

I suspect that the reason Kevin Conner thought he saw a kiss between Macbeth and Demona in City of Stone is because he was drifting off to sleep while wathing the show. And it's obvious from his posts that he can't just simply rewind the episode to see if he was wrong. By the time the show comes up again in the line up this conversation will have been forgotten about. BTW interesting observations about humanity!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Kevin - "Well, I'm not dropping it because I know I'm right."

After this, I am not furthering the discussion/arguement/what-have-you. I simply have this to say:

I am going to substitue your reality with my own, and I am incredibly surprised that, for once, mine is the one that is closer to the truth than yours is. For me, that comes as a major shock, considering I'm usually wrong about everything else; however, in this, I know I am right because...

*ahem*

There was no kissing or tossing around of "My Love!" between Macbeth and Demona. There was, on the other hand, a ton of that between Macbeth and Gruoch (sp?), so perhaps you have your characters misplaced in the toy box that is your head.

Watch the show. Get your facts straight. And, you know, maybe once in a while conceed to the fact that you are not always right and this is one of those times (at least in the Macbeth and Demona case, I'm no longer touching on anything else. :D ).
*goes back to lurking*

The Sadistic Cow
The one thing dead people are good at is floating in the water and they're wasting money by buyin' 'em cushions! - Richard Jeni

Oops. Accidentally pressed 'enter'... and I now have to go run an errand. I'll finish what I was writing tonight.
Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee@yahoo.com]
http://eternalbound.awardspace.com

For anyone who lives in california in my area. Riverside ,temecula area.

The comic book store mile high comics in temecula will be carrying the gargoyle Comic.

Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

<< Definitions 3, 4 and 5 transcend just "being human". >>

Defintions 3, 4, and 5 relate to the word "humane", not the word "human." Look up the definition of "humane" and you find:

humane (adj.)

1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: a humane judge.
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: a humane education.

You're playing with semantics and shades of meaning, but you're making a false connection between the two words. Goliath acts in a humane manner (he doesn't kick puppies, for example) but that does not make him human.

I can't keep up with the rest of this. You have to cite scenes that actually happened in order for the discussion to make sense.

Guess what what happens in three weeks...

1 days left to pre-register for the convention.
21 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"I think it would be a good idea." - Ghandi, on Western Civilization

I know I shouldn't be doing this... but everything else was argued about (thank goodness), but this one just really bugged me.

"Denial feeds her paranoia. That is the problem with many people who suffer paranoia- they usually have very legitimate reasons."

Demona does not suffer from paranoia. Far from it. She has a high distrust of humans, and her denial has caused her defense mechanisms to come into play. She experiences almost every defense mechanism there is.

Paranoia is a psychosis that is marked by delusions of prosecution or grandeur.

Last I checked, Demona isn't delusional.

BrooksBabe
"Why does he have to kill them to prove his point? Can't he just show them a pie chart or something?" --Tom Servo

Jalapena! I've been following the conversation this last couple days, but I've never had the time to post.
Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee@yahoo.com]
http://eternalbound.awardspace.com

Okay, I'm going to do something very, very, very uncharacteristic of me.

::Plants the DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS SIGN in the ground::

Everyone, ignore him and he'll go away. Now, I know some of you are probably disappointed, wanted to see me tear into this one. I've got much more important things to worry about now.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush

Wow, the Room got busy...
Ok, Kevin, heres a few helpful tips for you:

1. If you are going to debate the series in detail it may be advantageous for you to view the episodes in order. If you don't have the DVDs, then I suggest you read through the synopsis for each episode. Its online and its free.

2. If you are going to quote from the series or refer to a specific scene, it would be helpful to at least know which episode you are talking about, if not also which Act. This is esspecially important in cases like this where the existence of certain scenes is in question.

3. Similiarly, if you are going to quote or refer to sometime in Ask Greg, it is critical you provide a link to the comment, or quote Greg word for word in quotations here in the Room.

4. Be very careful, words are powerful. So far, you've come dangerously close to offending different people. The most blatant example of this is: "It's like the conversations we have on the boondocks messageboard. Every once in a while someone in the press or someone else talks about "acting black." You don't think or act like a species." This almost looks as if you are refering to black people as a seperate species. Racial differences (if they exist at all) are not in debate here. We are talking about the difference between two totally different species. You don't think or act like a species? So, you, a whale, a snake, and a mushroom all think and act exactly the same? Thats clearly not true. Gargoyles are not only biologically different, but they have a distinct culture from any human culture. I know of no human culture in which individuals have no names or where biological children are unknown to their parents and all the young of a certain generation are raised by the local community of adults.

How old are you, Kevin?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

Kevin > wow, for someone who claims to hate fanfic, kiddo, you sure are writing up a storm of it :)
Christine - [<--- pre-order the Grimorum Anthology here!]

Forgive the double post, but I just have to ask: where do we see evidence that Gruoch is upset over Macbeth and Demona's midnight meetings? I saw concern in Part Three, but I think that was simply her worrying that Macbeth made a bad bargain.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]

Wasn't Billy Shakes the guy who sang "With a Little Help From my Friends" on the album "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"?

Wow. Things got busy in here. I don't know if I should say more later, I'd most likely just be repeating what other people have said. Right now I only have this to offer.

Kevin: Goliath basically lays it out in black and white in "Awakening, Part Three." Gargoyles glide. Very big difference between flying and gliding.

And I'm afraid I must have been getting popcorn during the scenes in "City of Stone" where Macbeth and Demona call each other "my love." Macbeth calls her "my lady" once, but I think that was more him being chivalrous than anything else. Now Macbeth and his wife called each other "my love" constantly.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Never travel through the aorta after eating German food." -Dave Barry's travel motto.

Do what I did. Convince a friend to loan you fourty dollers.
Spen

I could. I certainly want to...

but then again I just paid a patent lawyer 2,008 bucks, and that's not counting what I will have to pay over the next four months :(

my entertainment budget is in the red.

Hey, why isn't anyone in the chat room there are like 50 people signed on tonight!!!:D

btw you all are very nice. But I'm still calling him Billy Shakes until the day I die :P

:snickers:

Kevin Conner - [DalbozOfGurth@aol.com]

Kevin : Of course, you could maybe, I don't know, buy the DVD?
Spen

:s

hrm......

:s

I swear to god I thought I saw them kiss, I mean the Queen is really upset over the two of them having their midnight meetings. I'd certainly suspect them of doing something together.

I'll be forever now before they repeat that episode :sighs:

Kevin Conner - [DalbozOfGurth@aol.com]

Sorry, I meant part four. I am a complete and utter idiot.
Spen

Part one? Macbeth .....

ok hold up..... Part one macbeth was a little boy, it wasn't his father..... I'm sure of it.

Whend does Macbeth and his wife have grey hair is that part 4?

I do know that Macbeth and Demona constantly call themselves my love. Maybe it was part 4? I watched part three and four together and missed the first 10 minutes of Part 4 because I had the vcr going.. BUt I am sure it was after the sisters exchanged Macbeth and Demona.

I do remember them being cheery, Demona was really happy about the coming battle. Then it flashes to Macbeth's wife as she eves drops on her husband and king-- it's definitely with Macbeth not the father killed by the hunter.

Too many "my loves" for me to not think something was going on between them.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Gargoyles don't fly, they glide! Are you certain you've seen the entire show?

And also, I meant to say 'you're' not 'your'. Sorry about that.

Spen

Kevin : The scene you're describing would definatly be from early part one. The closest thing to what you describe however, is Demona lifting Macbeth off the ground, and swinging him around a bit. Unless that's what you call kissing, your most definatly wrong.
Spen
Why do people always use sports metephors when they want you to do somthing stupid? - David Swaine

Well, I said pretty much everything I'm saying on the subject but I just want to know how anyone got the idea that I called the Gargoyles human?

I'm talking about Humanity, not being human. Big difference. And, yes they are a different species, they will always be different, but, the only concrete difference anyone has said which I have never seen in human society in any of my papers are:

1. Gargoyles lay eggs
2. Gargoyles fly
3. Gargoyle eyes light up
4. Gargoyles roar
5. Gargoyles turn to stone

There is nothing else which separates the two species in what I've seen from gargoyles. Community housing, picking successors, defending castles, wearing loin cloths, etc.., all been done by humans. Many of which are still done by humans. There is no psychological trait you can find in Gargoyles which is not seen in a human reference.

Classic definition of possessing humanity cannot be ignored, disagree if you like, but I tell ya, the definition of humanity is very broad.

2. I don't read fanfics, I hate them, I never bought the marvel comic and I've never liked G:TGC. :shudders:

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

We just finished watching part three of City of Stone *ten minutes ago* on the DVD copy we own just to prove to ourselves we have not all undergone temporary amnesia. And it's not there. Goliath and Xanatoes and some steel clan robots are there and they light the sky on fire to break the spell. Bronx is in it, and he scratches at the Tapestry which clues us in that Demona is there. But is no sucking of the face between Macbeth- that old looking human guy in the cool coat, and Demona- the blue female gargoyle with red hair. It's not in the flashback. Prince Canmore swearing to get his revenge is there. Bodhe going from "sacrifice yourself Macbeth to spare my daughter and grandson" to "That kid'll be trouble- kill the brat" is there.. although I'm paraphrasing. But no kissing between Demona, the blue female gargoyle- and Macbeth- the gray-haired human male- happened. It didn't happen before the Wyrd Sisters cast their spell. And it didn't after the Wyrd Sisters cast their spell.

Now, in the episode Sanctuary- when Macbeth does not know that his fiancee Dominique Destine is actually Demona in her human guise- they do smooch. But Demona was deceiving Macbeth at the bequest of Thailog- who is Goliath's clone. That's a different episode and is about nine hundred and fifty odd years AFTER the events in the episode you are claiming where they smooched face.

Mara

Kevin: What about Nokkar? He showed some human qualities. Does that mean he's human, too? :P
D. Taína - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game

Wow, that was...ironically timed. I guess I wasn't the only one to see his "Ok well you guys can disagree all you want" and think, "okay, we will."
Lynati

Well, I'm not dropping it because I know I'm right. My jaw dropped when I saw Macbeth kissing Demona. I seriously suggest you watch City of Stone over again. They just ended it two nights ago on Toon Disney and so it is fresh in my mind.

Demona comes back warning Macbeth of the other people, Macbeth says something to her, both call each other my love a few times, they kiss, Macbeth's wife watches from the window.

Then fast forward, Demona overhears Macbeth's advisor telling macbeth to forsake the gargoyles, demona doesn't even bother to confront macbeth, decides to betray him first.

It is on that episode, and it has to be episode 3, I do not believe it's episode 4. If it is it is early on in episode 4.

Prior to Demona betraying Macbeth, she and he have that little kissy scene and they both call each other my love-- what on god's green earth do you think they've been doing? Macbeth kissing anyone else other than his wife while he's married is a breech of his vows to begin with. I seriously doubt the Scot king stopped there, especially considering the fact we're talking about a time when kings had several mistresses.

Damn I can't see the rest of that post...

I remember you saying something about humanity though:

This is just one of the definitions which said the exact same thing as all of my dictionaries sitting on my shelf (and those I found online):

hu·man·i·ty (hy-mn-t)
n. pl. hu·man·i·ties
1. Humans considered as a group; the human race.
2. The condition or quality of being human.
3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.
4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.
5. humanities
a. The languages and literatures of ancient Greece and Rome; the classics.
b. Those branches of knowledge, such as philosophy, literature, and art, that are concerned with human thought and culture; the liberal arts.


Definitions 3, 4 and 5 transcend just "being human". Considering how much high regard Goliath holds for reading human literature, and studying philosophy, it is wholly incorrect for anyone on any board to claim that he doesn't have what we call a quality of Humanity. Humanity is constantly being questioned in the Gargoyles series.

And well, even mirriam-webster's dictionary (a dictionary for which I have low regard), says that you're wrong :s

But we can still be friends !:D!

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin: Macbeth and Demona kissing? Goliath and Elisa admitting their love for one another before City of Stone? You've got to be kidding me. What series were you watching? The bad fanfic edition?

I'm not going to bother typing up long responses this time, but I do have a few things to point out...

1. Gargoyles don't think like humans. You're not appreciating a different species' uniqueness if you keep thinking this way. Oh, and I never said anything about "acting white" or "acting black." That doesn't prove anything, seeing as how both races are still human. We're talking about species, not skin colors.

2. Elisa thought like a human while she was a gargoyle because she'd been raised as a human. Same with every other human-turned-gargoyle. Even the gargoyles, who had been turned into humans, still thought like gargoyles. So you see, biology has nothing to do with it; it's all about their upbringing and instinct.

3. If you think Elisa and Goliath's love for one another is unique because of anything other than their species, then you weren't paying attention.

4. Demona and Macbeth never kissed during City of Stone. That was Macbeth and Gruoch. They did kiss in Sanctuary, but it was nothing like what you described.

5. Humanity is being human. You can't have humanity if you're not human. What's so complicated about that?

6. You're confusing the Puck from Gargoyles with the Puck from Midsummer Night's Dream. Though they may share some qualities, they are NOT the same.

7. You have no respect for Hudson.

You can say I'm wrong until you're blue in the face, or until your fingers fall off in this case, but that won't change a thing. So far, you've provided no facts; just things you've made up, like Demona and Macbeth kissing. That ruined your credibility. How about some quotes from the show? Or real scenes? Even the Hudson quote you provided isn't real.

Seriously, when was the last time you watched the episodes in order?

You can believe whatever you want, but gargoyles are not human. If you want to have glorified humans with wings, then hey, more power to you. Me, I appreciate their uniqueness and how different they are from us.

A few more things...

"Demona's only ever been betrayed by two people she "trusted" 1. The Vikings 2. The Hunter."

And this is proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. She didn't trust the Vikings; she trusted the Captain of the Guard. And she never, EVER trusted the Hunter, but Macbeth.

("Once again… Gargoyle are not humans! They don't have any humanity, because they're not human. "

I'm sorry but you're totally wrong.)

So let me get this straight... I'm wrong in thinking that gargoyles are not humans... wow, I really had no idea that gargoyles were just humans in disguise! Over ten years of watching this thing, and I had NO idea... learn something new every day!

D. Taína - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game

Kevin, eleven posts in a twenty-four hour period? Ye gods, and some people here think I have too much free time.
Spen
Why do people always use sports metephors when they want you to do somthing stupid? - David Swaine

Kevin>> Welcome to the board.

Going through the conversation which has taken place, I think you're missing one element, and that's Greg's universe is canon, here. While it may well be the case that Puck's tricks work on Oberon in MSND, and to a certain extent have worked on Oberon pre-GATHERING, they no longer work, because in Greg's universe Oberon's law is final, and so Puck's powers have been stripped but for the training of Alexander.

If the scenario of Puck giving Elisa and Goliath a magical option of conceiving a child is ever going to work, it has to happen in the course of training Alexander - and, frankly, I think it unlikely at best. Puck isn't one to hand out gifts - even POSSESSION must be taken not as Puck giving Coldstone et al. the gift of having their own bodies so much as extending his service to both Xanatos (fixing the problem of downloading the souls into the robots) and Alexander.

And, as has been asked before, please stop calling Shakespeare "Billy Shakes." It's just not working.

Furthermore, most of us have season 2, part 1 on DVD, which includes CITY OF STONE, with commentary. I am one of those. I also have the episodes downloaded on my computer. In no scene - and I mean no scene - is Macbeth kissing Demona. It's not there. The *closest* the two come to any intimate contact is after the first battle with the English where Demona picks up Macbeth and joyfully proclaims that victory is at hand; and on the DVD, in this scene it is *suggested* that Demona *might* have feelings for Macbeth.

And that's it. They don't kiss, they never kissed. The first gargoyle-human kiss that we see on Gargoyles is at the end of Hunter's Moon, part III. It's not that we don't remember, it's that the scene does not exist - and I doubt Disney/Toon Disney went and added that scene behind Greg's back.

As to the main point of discussion, the major flaw in your case of saying gargoyles have an element of "humanity" is two-fold.

1. Gargoyles, as a species, share very little in common with humans on a biological level. Gargoyles aren't even in the same taxonological order as humans, being "gargates" and not mammals, so on some level they are behaving differently. As Greg once described it (so I recall), gargoyles arepresent the animal side of humans that humans try to ignore, whereas humans represent the cold, calculating side that gargoyles often ignore.

In short, gargoyles are instinctive, whereas most ordered human societies are not.

Feeding off of that, claiming that the argument that gargoyles behave differently because of their species is like saying blacks and whites behave differently because of race just doesn't wash. Gargoyles are entirely a different species, black and white humans are not. Bottom line.

Species which share the same order of taxonomy don't all behave the same way, so why should it be expected that two greatly divergent species of different orders should behave the same way? Or, as you have been claiming, that one should be attributed with "human" characteristics.

Of the three races, Greg has said that he believes gargoyles are the oldest. So maybe humans are displaying gargoyle qualities that they picked up from them a few thousand years back but have long since forgotten those ties.

2. Gargoyles openly admit they behave differently from humans. We aren't making up the "gargoyle way" for the sake of argument, this comes from the gargoyle characters themselves. Whatever similarities they have, that doesn't make gargoyles any more human than one might claim it makes humans gargoylean.

So it's not fair or really accurate to gargoyles to say that they're behaving like humans - in fact, it might be insulting - but that gargoyles are displaying qualities which humans share; but at the end of the night, they're still gargoyles.

Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]

I can't help myself tonight.

Many of us own the first two volumes on DVD and can go watch at whim the eps you are claiming to cite. Some of us just have, to try and figure out where you might be pulling these supposed scenes out of. Not to mention the full scripts are online as well as synopsis of the eps.

"Having a different CULTURE does not mean you LACK humanity."
By definition it does if it isn't a HUMAN culture.

"I just watched City of Stone (as I pointed out, they make it very clear Macbeth and Demona are lovers, if not physically at least mentally)."
Um, no, they don't. They really don't.

"Demona's only ever been betrayed by two people she "trusted" 1. The Vikings 2. The Hunter."
…where to start on this…
1) We don't know how many people that Demona trusted have betrayed her; we have hardly seen the full span of her life. 2)Demona wasn't ever allies with either the Vikings OR anyone she knew to be a Hunter. I'm positive she never trusted any of them further than she could throw them, and "The Vikings" were not a single person. That's more than two right there. Wyvern's Captain of the Guard "betrayed" her by failing to keep his promise to keep the clan safe after he and Demona betrayed the humans of Wyvern to the Vikings. The Vikings never made her any promises that they did not keep. 3) If you're listing Macbeth as a Hunter, well, he never betrayed her either- she betrayed him by selling out to the English because she *thought* he was going to betray her. 4) Thailog has most certainly betrayed Demona. By your own count that would be a third person right there. 5) Demona clearly feels that she has been betrayed by Goliath and the rest of the surviving Wyvern clan when they chose protecting humans over siding with her cause. Point in fact, when Goliath saved Elisa and not her at the end of "Awakenings".

The only kiss Macbeth and Demona ever share is when she uses her human form to seduce him in "Sanctuary", and he falls for her clearly having no idea that she is Demona- look at the shock on his face when he finds out who she truly is. Listen to what he actually says about it at the end of the ep.

Asimov isn't writing "Gargoyles" - Greg Weisman is. The Puck of Midsummer may not be the exact same character as portrayed in Gargoyles, since Midsummer exists as a novel written by a human within the Gargoyles universe. And we all already know how much liberties he took with his play about Macbeth. The Puck of Gargoyles is an adaptation, like many of the other literary and mythological figures that have made an appearance. The rules in this world are not necessarily the same as any other world. Shakespeare did not invent "the Fates" either, although in Weisman's universe the Weird Sisters were one and the same as them- as well as the Graces and the Furies. And they do not control every aspect of Macbeth OR Demona's life - admitting that they are keeping an eye on them is not the same thing as saying "we made a mistake when we made them immortal".


"It's in the faq or ask greg section, one of the two. He mentions there probably being a link of tragedy with Elisa and Goliath if they ever have a child. I'd have to find it again to quote exactly what he said but it was unnerving."
...Go find it then, some of us would actually like to see it.

Lynati

Ok well you guys can disagree all you want, but in City of Stone they show Macbeth kissing Demona, in a flashback, and Macbeth's wife/queen sees them through the window. If you don't remember that, that's fine. But they jsut finished city of stone on toon disney. There is only ONE Demona. I did not confuse the characters, do not tell me I confused the characters, it is insulting.

Macbeth and Demona suck face. Why do you think that Macbeth's wife hates Demona so much and screams at her at the end of City of Stone part 4?

Now, as for Elisa and Goliath, I wasn't sure which episode they kissed, but I remember them kissing at one point and I recently saw it. My problem with palcing E and G's kiss is that saturday and sunday nights they show gargoyles at 11:30 PM MST on Satellite., and these episodes are out of sync with the 2:30AM showing... so it was hard for me to place the time.


Now Puck:

Fetch me this herb, and be thou here again
Ere the leviathan can swim a league. -- Act II, scene i, lines 173-74 Oberon

I'll put a girdle round about the earth
In forty minutes. -- Act II, scene i, lines 175-76 Puck's response to Oberon's time limit.

At the time of Billy's play, a leviathan was a whale.

Asimov -- "Whales can swim as speedily as twenty miles an hour. To swim a league (three miles) would require nine minutes.
It is interesting to note that Puck outdoes even the modern astronaut, who requires ninety minutes to go around the earth. To circumnavigate the planet in forty minutes means moving at a rate of 37,500 miles an hour or a little over 10 miles a second. Puck would be hard put to manage to stay close to the earth's surface at this speed, for he would well exceed the escape velocity."

"In nine minutes allowed him by Oberon, by the way, PUck could, at this speed, flash to a point twenty-seven hundred miles away and back again. In short, he could fly from Athens to England and back with several minutes to spare, and it must have been England that Oberon saw Cupid aiming at the fair vestal. -- so through all the fantasy, shakespeare manages (without meaning it, I'm sure) to allow Puck enough time."

All from Asimov's Guide to Shkaespeare. You guys should get this book it's very good.

KevinConner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

"I still say it's her denial. It doesn't necessarily mean she's sick; just screwed up. And paranoia? She's always getting betrayed. What she doesn't see is that it's her own fault. It's a defense mechanism. "

Denial feeds her paranoia. That is the problem with many people who suffer paranoia- they usually have very legitimate reasons.

However, she's done this for a thousand years.

Demona's only ever been betrayed by two people she "trusted" 1. The Vikings 2. The Hunter.

Both betrayals were carried out under her own betrayal. She is the cause of her suffering, no one else, and yet she continually thinks everyone is against her as it is never her fault, it's always everyone else's fault.

Prior to her first betrayal, you see that she is already a bigot, and a racial isolationist. She doesn't ever "trust humans". This only feeds her cycle of self-destruction and violence.

"Is Greg like other writers? No. And when did Greg mention tragedy? The only tragedy he's talked about is Goliath's death, and we don't know much about that. "

It's in the faq or ask greg section, one of the two. Seriously I wouldn't have brought it up if I hadn't have read it. He mentions there probably being a link of tragedy with Elisa and Goliath if they ever have a child. I'd have to find it again to quote exactly what he said but it was unnerving.

"That's the equivalent of saying that a couple having children and needing to look after them is admitting a mistake. Just watch City of Stone and Avalon again and you'll see what they meant about Demona and Macbeth being their responsibility. "

I just watched City of Stone (as I pointed out, they make it very clear Macbeth and Demona are lovers, if not physically at least mentally). And the weird sisters/fates pretty much consider Demona and Macbeth's state of affairs to be their fault (while calling them their children they are owning their responsibility). There is a massive difference between actual real children and making a screw up with magic for which you regret and take responsibility.

"I know next to nothing about Star Wars, but is Gargoyles Sci-Fi? No. Maybe it has elements of sci-fi, but it's not sci-fi. This is Gargoyles, not Star Wars (thank god!!) and here, they would never name a kid after a mass murderer, especially if that kid is born before Demona's redemption. But that's a hypothetical based on a hypothetical…"

I hope you know I'm not advocating it, I just fear the possibility.

Gargoyles is sci fi like jules verne is sci fi. Same elements. :D ok maybe more Sci-fi/Fantasy. But it's definitely both! Lots of science fiction in gargoyles (gen-u-tech).

I sincerely hope Greg isn't like other writers, I was just voicing my concern at being burned about 50,000 times over. Talk about being paranoid. I've been betrayed by more franchises and writers than Demona's killed humans.

"Puck is a sucker for star-crossed lovers? When did this happen?

Why would Goliath and Elisa want Puck to give them a child? Puck's gifts always come with a price, you know. And Goliath and Elisa don't need a biological child to be happy; they can raise the clan's children and adopt a child. It's the Gargoyle Way. "

Read MSND, Puck loves fooling with mortals especially ones who couldn't normally get together. He plays checkers with them, in order to make the stars uncross and allow the proper loves with their proper mates.

Puck is always sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong, as I said in the post prior to this, if anyone makes it happen with E and G, it's most likely Puck.

No, G and E don't need kids, I'm just referring to what I read in the FAQ, IF it does happen, I wonder how etc.. If Elisa wants to have a child, other than adoption, that's a serious issue. You may think that oh well, just brush it off, but you're very wrong if you think that.

Having a Child is a heavy desire many people have. Man/Woman. It destroys marriages and relationships. If it is ever a desire of Elisa's to have a child other than adoption, and in reading the FAQ about what Greg has said- it just might be, then it won't be solved by just saying "Oh go ahead and adopt." Even if they never have a biological offspring from their love, it's still an issue that'll drag on. My cousin is adopted, and, I tell ya, my aunt and uncle's inability to conceive is still an issue at the back of their minds.

"The entire crux of the series was not to judge a book by its cover and that there is good and evil in all of us. It wasn't about everyone being human. Gargoyles are not humans. Children of Oberon are not human. They're their own species, with their own traditions and history and whatnot. "

This is the point where I just shake my head.

Humanity has nothing to do with "being human." Period. We're talking about humanity. It's very harsh for you to discount Goliath's entire presence and reasoning throughout the series as just acting gargoyle.
If being a gargoyle meant you "Act only like a gargoyle" then Hudson's blind friend would've immediately known he isn't human.

I'm sorry, but you're way off the mark if you think biology changes how people act. That's just as bad as telling a person he "acts black" or "acts white".

I don't define humanity as being biologically human. There are many many many many people I know who aren't human despite their biology.

Further proof that your statement is false -- Xanatos definitely does not possess any normal "human reasoning". Neither does Fox. This is clearly stated when he proposes to her. They are incapable of certain feelings and how they think is outrageously inhuman 90% of the time. Like I said, youre definition of humanity just doesn't fit at all with the series.

"Elisa faking her own death would be cowardly. Is Elisa a coward? No. But again, another hypothetical based on a hypothetical and now I'm beginning to understand why Greg hates them…"

If Elisa were ever to fake her own death in no way would it be cowardly. The fact is she'd have to protect herself/the others/her family from people whom might want revenge.

She's an A class detective with a sparkling record. Do you really think it'd be smart for her to let all the criminals know she's completely utterly helpless during the day and can be turned into a pile of gravel without anyone being the wiser?

"When did he choose not to patrol and watch TV? When did this ever happen? "

Man I have no idea what show you're watching.

"You kids go out and have a good time, I just want to relax." -- Hudson says a line like this every other episode! Like every 3rd episode he's shrugging off nightly patrol or saying "Ahh it's for the young." or something to that effect.

I'm sorry but I keep seeing a reoccuring theme here, and that theme is:

Hudson is old. If he were a cop he'd be behind a desk.

I know-- Think of him as Commissioner Gordon.


"You also seem to forget the Gargoyle Way. Gargoyle hatchlings are raised by the whole clan. That's exactly how they'd raise the clan's new generation and Goliath and Elisa's adopted child. It's what gargoyles do, because they're not humans. Really, I think you're thinking too much like a human."

:s Funny, cause well... nm, I was order by Area 51 not to divulge this information.

"Once again… Gargoyle are not humans! They don't have any humanity, because they're not human. "

I'm sorry but you're totally wrong.

1. Raising "clutches" of children is a halmark of human society. You don't see it because you're probably american. My dad's an archaeologist, I study history, it's a hobby and a requirement. I tell you without a doubt, raising "clutches" of children is in no way absent of human society.

Especially in pre-rome Europe. Even after Rome Fell you had germanic tribes raising their children all at once. There's more than enough evidence of ancient housing that held 5-6 families under one roof. You ever been to Mesa Verde?

How about what the Aztecs did, not all families were solitary families.

Stating that gargoyles have no humanity because they aren't human only proves you do not know the real definition of humanity. I'm sorry but it's something of which that I cannot ever agree. My schooling and my own history of the subject expressly prohibits me from agreeing with you on that point.

By suggesting that raising children in a large family atmospher lacks humanity is also suggesting that Indians, Germanic Tribes, African Bushman aren't human. I'm sorry but that's just something that is not true under any circumstances.


What you are describing is CULTURE. Having a different CULTURE does not mean you LACK humanity.

KevinConner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Okay, I'm only touching on one part of what was said... mostly since it's so late.

"Part 3 I believe of City of Stone, just watched it.

Macbeth and Demona say "my love" to each other about 4 or 5 times.

Macbeth and demona then lean in to kiss. But it isn't just a regular kiss, it's a full blown face suck akin to what Elisa and Goliath do in a few episodes previous where Goliath is about to tell her that if only she were a Gargoyle.. I can't remember if G adn E have that face suck before or after he is cut off. But Macbeth adn Demona are definitely lovers.

Now you can argue that they were intellectual lovers never really consumated their relationship, but even according to Jimmy Carter, that's more or less adultry. Fact is Macbeth and Demona don't just kiss each other lightly, what they do is as close to frenching as allowed on a Disney cartoon. Then they call each other "My love" -- They're clearly lovers prior to Demona's betrayal."

Dear GODS! What version have YOU been watching? And WHAT was being put into your body when you were watching it?

BrooksBabe
"Why does he have to kill them to prove his point? Can't he just show them a pie chart or something?" --Tom Servo

""Macbeth and demona then lean in to kiss. But it isn't just a regular kiss, it's a full blown face suck akin to what Elisa and Goliath do in a few episodes previous where Goliath is about to tell her that if only she were a Gargoyle.. I can't remember if G adn E have that face suck before or after he is cut off. But Macbeth adn Demona are definitely lovers.""

Goliath and Elisa don't kiss until episode 65. And it's not sucking face, Elisa gives him a quick peck. Now, Othello and Desdemon, even Broadway and Angela have all made out on screen. Maybe you just have character names mixed up? I'm confused.

Mara

Kevin: That woman, the one with the pale skin and the orange hair? Her name is Gruoch, not Demona.
...Kissing?
Okay, nevermind. I make it a point not to argue story events with people who are confusing canon animation with their personal fanfic.

Lynati

Well you can try to argue it, because of course disney doesn't want to show anything relating to adultry but seriously.

Part 3 I believe of City of Stone, just watched it.

Macbeth and Demona say "my love" to each other about 4 or 5 times.

Macbeth and demona then lean in to kiss. But it isn't just a regular kiss, it's a full blown face suck akin to what Elisa and Goliath do in a few episodes previous where Goliath is about to tell her that if only she were a Gargoyle.. I can't remember if G adn E have that face suck before or after he is cut off. But Macbeth adn Demona are definitely lovers.

Now you can argue that they were intellectual lovers never really consumated their relationship, but even according to Jimmy Carter, that's more or less adultry. Fact is Macbeth and Demona don't just kiss each other lightly, what they do is as close to frenching as allowed on a Disney cartoon. Then they call each other "My love" -- They're clearly lovers prior to Demona's betrayal.

Now the second statement you say I am confused, I never said that Goliath adn Elise's love wasn't unique. What I said was the UNIQUENESS of their love is that it is unconditional and real. They understand each other and love as mature people should. It's unique in the fact many grown up people lack th ematurity to have a real foundation for love.

What I said was Goliath and Elisa being Gargoyle/Human is not what makes it unique. I believe you were agreeing with me?

Their child:

Oh I was just speculating on what might happen with their child. If Elisa had a magic spell cast upon her which does to her what it does to demona, in that she would turn into a gargoyle for a short time, or only during the night, then their child may be born in that they would turn Human in the day instead of Stone. Course there are other ways to solve for this. I was just tossing an idea out there in connection with Demona's "gift".

"Oh, that is where I disagree. If Elisa was a gargoyle, it would take away her humanity completely - BECAUSE she would be a gargoyle. Think about it. Elisa was born human, raised human, thus she thinks like a human, and if one changed her into a gargoyle that would completely turn everything around because she'd be THINKING like a gargoyle. Like when Goliath said in Awakening, "Their way is not our way" -- that's exactly it."

Yeah this is just something that doesn't match my impression at all.

How does one "think like a gargoyle?"

It's like the conversations we have on the boondocks messageboard. Every once in a while someone in the press or someone else talks about "acting black." You don't think or act like a species.

Goliath reasons and speaks and acts like a human, there are things he does which are unique to being a gargoyle, but I tell ya, Conan acts more like a magical "beast" than Goliath. Goliath is an intellectual and is always thinking and acting alongside Elisa's train of thought.

When she was turned temporarily into a gargoyle, she acted like Elisa Maza, only with wings. She did not act like a gargoyle.


"What is life without tragic circumstances? A life without tragedy is impossible, thus, I think, why Greg W. has chosen that path. You honestly can't expect the lives of Elisa and the clan to be full of "little disappointments", because that just isn't the way life is. And if nothing else, I think whatever Greg W plans to do will be brilliantly done; I have faith in him to tell a damn good story that, while fantastical, echoes reality in just the right way."

Having ntragedy once in a while is one thing, that's real life.

Sticking tragedy every 2 issues of a comic book is soap opera trash. Believe me, there's a big difference. If you don't quite understand what I mean, then here's a better definition:

1. My great grandma died about a year ago. About 16 years ago. About 18 years ago my other grandpa died. My dog and my cat friend died about 6-7 years ago.

Relatively tragic things, but spaced apart.

2. Peter parker's Aunt May dies. His clone melts after becoming best friends. His daughter is born dead. Mary Jane Watson asks for a separation. Osborn comes back. Turns out Peter's ex-dead girlfriend was cheating on him with Normon and was pregnant when Green Goblin killed her. Peter finds out he was lied to his baby is alive but kidnapped and locked away.

All within the last 6 years of Spiderman, and I've edited it for shortness. 6 years in the marvel universe is really a year and 2 months.

That's comic book tragedy and that's why I'd rather Greg take the birth a little lighter.

So far in gargoyles, in two years, we've had Goliath find out his ex is evil, psychopathic killer, we've had maza more or less lose her brother, we've had goliath's brother get resurrected then turn on him, then leave him then come back, well.... if the tragedy with G+E's daughter is too much, it'll tip the boat.


"As for Puck helping Elisa and Goliath get a kid... did you not hear what Oberon said? Puck is ONLY allowed to use his powers when protecting or training Alexander. They can't just go up to him and say, "Yo, Trickster, make me a pregnant hoochie mama so I can pop out a baby that represents our mutual love that lasts eternal." No, no, no. Alex would have to be the one to do that spell, possibly with Puck's help, and who is to say either of them would even agree to do it? "

tsk tsk tsk.

You need to re-read Billy Shakes' MSND. Puck never ever ever does things in a straight line. If he is at point A and wants to get to point B, he's gonna take a side trip to point Z and have someone else do all the work for him.

Billy Shakes made Puck's character pretty clear. 1. He's a sucker for star crossed lovers. 2. He controls oberon, not vice versa. 3. If Puck wants to see something happen, he'll make it happen.

Don't count out Puck's involvement in anything.

What would be likely to happen is a scene like this:
Elisa and Goliath are grief stricken because well, if you've ever known anyone trying to conceive or wants to conceive who hasn't/can't, they get griefstricken.
Puck offers Goliath and Elisa a deal, but they have to get his powers back for him.
Elisa and Goliath are at Puck's Mercy.
Titania and Oberon get involved, and true to nature, are wrapped around Puck's little finger in half a shake of a lamb's tail.

Adoption is pretty much out of the question unless it is an unofficial adoption. No way is a single mother detective gonna pass through the adoption agency. Not without serious help.

Billy Shakes shakes up the casbah! He was always a rebel, I think he'd like that nickname!

Let me repeat for you what Asimov wrote ;D Billy boy was pretty explicit on Puck's speed in MSND. All it is is a matter of math.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin Conner:

"As for Demona not being sick -- I can't agree on that on any level. She's clearly suffering from paranoia."

I still say it's her denial. It doesn't necessarily mean she's sick; just screwed up. And paranoia? She's always getting betrayed. What she doesn't see is that it's her own fault. It's a defense mechanism.

"Hey I was just saying a fear I have over Greg's comment concerning tragedy. I've seen writers do some really screwed up things over the years"

Is Greg like other writers? No. And when did Greg mention tragedy? The only tragedy he's talked about is Goliath's death, and we don't know much about that.

"The fates referd to Demona and Macbeth as them being their responsibility and they'd have to take care of them as if they were their children. In Billy's language (remember these fates are Billy's characters), that's admitting a mistake. Not only that but aren't the Fates in Gargoyles supposed to be part of the Third Race and not actually the real Fates?"

That's the equivalent of saying that a couple having children and needing to look after them is admitting a mistake. Just watch City of Stone and Avalon again and you'll see what they meant about Demona and Macbeth being their responsibility.

"You must not read any sci-fi books. Well, here's one instance of many I've come across: Leia and Han name their youngest son Anakin. Because he turned his life around before dying."

I know next to nothing about Star Wars, but is Gargoyles Sci-Fi? No. Maybe it has elements of sci-fi, but it's not sci-fi. This is Gargoyles, not Star Wars (thank god!!) and here, they would never name a kid after a mass murderer, especially if that kid is born before Demona's redemption. But that's a hypothetical based on a hypothetical…

"Well I was talking about Demona being human and gargoyle due to Puck's gift. Puck being the sucker for star crossed lovers that he is, might conceivably do the same thing with Elisa and Goliath... That's what I was saying."

Puck is a sucker for star-crossed lovers? When did this happen?

Why would Goliath and Elisa want Puck to give them a child? Puck's gifts always come with a price, you know. And Goliath and Elisa don't need a biological child to be happy; they can raise the clan's children and adopt a child. It's the Gargoyle Way.

"Demona having a human child well... she's a sick puppy, who knows why she'd do it, or how. Maybe she's kidnapped or raped when she's other wise helpless (god I hope not) or maybe she tries to do it in order to create a perfect killer to rid herself of whomever. Who knows?"

I won't even touch this one…

"And Goliath and Elisa having a relationship isn't what makes it unique (them being gargoyle and human) what makes them unique is their background stories and unequated love."

They're unique because they're human and gargoyle. Or are you going to tell me that Goliath and Elisa denying their feelings for one another during the course of the entire series had nothing to do with their species?

"For the record, Macbeth and Demona were once physical items before Demona turned on Macbeth and destroyed his kingdom."

They were allies, not lovers. Maybe she was a little bit in love with him, but that's about as far as it went. Were we watching the same show?

"I don't believe Elisa being turned into a gargoyle would take away her humanity at all."

So… you're saying that Elisa losing her humanity wouldn't… take away her humanity at all? How does that work? Here's an idea. Turn yourself into an animal, like a dog or something, and then tell me if you're still yourself.

"The entire crux of the series is based on showing the humanity and inhumanity of all species and manner of people"

The entire crux of the series was not to judge a book by its cover and that there is good and evil in all of us. It wasn't about everyone being human. Gargoyles are not humans. Children of Oberon are not human. They're their own species, with their own traditions and history and whatnot.

"Elisa would tell her FAMILY and FRIENDS about the change, but Certainly not her Police Captain. It is those people to whom she'd have to fake her death."

Elisa faking her own death would be cowardly. Is Elisa a coward? No. But again, another hypothetical based on a hypothetical and now I'm beginning to understand why Greg hates them…

"And it seems you are neglecting to remember the episodes where Hudson is clutching his back due to pains/aging/arthritis, where he's constantly getting beat down, and where he chooses to sit down and watch tv while others go on patrol."

Come on, he only clutched his back one or two times, and it was usually after some battle. It's not like he was constantly whining about his back hurting. He did patrol the city with the clan often, but remember that a great portion of the second season consisted of the World Tour, in which Hudson was not present.

When did he choose not to patrol and watch TV? When did this ever happen? Because if you're talking about Reawakening, he chose to stay at home and watch TV instead of going out to watch Bambi in the snow. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

I think what you're saying is an insult to Hudson, who still has much to contribute to the clan and who has proven his worth again and again. You seem to think that just because he's old, it means that he's completely useless in battle and is only useful for giving out good advice.

And as for the rest of your posts…

Puck would not do anyone a favor without twisting their words around first (and couldn't anyway; since his powers are now limited to teaching Alexander), and Goliath and Elisa wouldn't want his favors. They can't have children without science or sorcery getting involved, and neither wants that.

You also seem to forget the Gargoyle Way. Gargoyle hatchlings are raised by the whole clan. That's exactly how they'd raise the clan's new generation and Goliath and Elisa's adopted child. It's what gargoyles do, because they're not humans. Really, I think you're thinking too much like a human.

Once again… Gargoyle are not humans! They don't have any humanity, because they're not human. They're different from us and they think differently from us, and that's what makes them so fascinating. Why would you want to turn gargoyles into glorified humans with wings?

Gah… this turned out to be an even longer post. Sorry, people! :P

D. Taína - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game

*delurks again*

Kevin Conner:

"For the record, Macbeth and Demona were once physical items before Demona turned on Macbeth and destroyed his kingdom. So if you're talking about Goliath and Elisa being unique because of Gargoyle/Human love, that's not true at all."

...What? Just where, might I ask, did you get THAT little tidbit of information? Unless I'm completely missing a page here, Macbeth and Demona were allies - nothing more. Friends at best, despite Demona's trust issues. As far as I have seen, there was absolutely no sign or indication that those two were doing the nasty at any point in time. So why, and how, did you come to the conclusion that they were "physical" with one another?

And, actually, I am a firm believer in Elisa and Goliath's love being unique. Why? Watch the series. You don't see love like that very often, not even between two humans, and the fact that two separate species can set aside their differences and find love in one another is a message to the lot of us that love knows no bounds whatsoever. We really ought to take our queue from them.

"Absolutely nothing at all. However, think of it like this... Goliath is only available during the night -- even if Angela were to babysit their kid, she's only available at night (unless they had Uncle Owen do some fancy spell). Elisa is in a high risk job and again is really onle available during some portions of the day .

Maybe the Tragic result of Elisa and Goliath's child (adopted or natural) is the fact that neither of them would breally be able to take care of the kid? Either that or what would be Tragic is Goliath missing certain times of his child's life growing up (as he did with Angela)... to a dad that's pretty tragic."

I... do not see the logic in this. For the sake of conversation, let's pretend Elisa and Goliath did manage to have a human/gargoyle hybrid baby - who is to say the sprog wouldn't turn to stone during the day? Goliath or whomever could care for it during the night, because, obviously, that's when they're all awake. And I highly doubt that the kid would lack for an adult around because, while there aren't that many adults in the clan, I don't think the clan would be inclined to leave the child by itself at any point in time, for any reason.

Besides, if your average cop can pull it off, I'm sure Elisa and Goliath wouldn't have that hard a time making their schedules work for the optimum.

"I don't believe Elisa being turned into a gargoyle would take away her humanity at all. The entire crux of the series is based on showing the humanity and inhumanity of all species and manner of people. If I had to pick a tragedy that I would prefer over another tragedy, that's what I'd pick."

Oh, that is where I disagree. If Elisa was a gargoyle, it would take away her humanity completely - BECAUSE she would be a gargoyle. Think about it. Elisa was born human, raised human, thus she thinks like a human, and if one changed her into a gargoyle that would completely turn everything around because she'd be THINKING like a gargoyle. Like when Goliath said in Awakening, "Their way is not our way" -- that's exactly it.

Gargoyles are gargoyles, and humans are humans. A gargoyle is not a winged human, nor is a human a wingless gargoyle. Two different species, two different ways of thinking, two different ways of BEING. To make Elisa a gargoyle would just... it would suck. 'Nuff said.

"As I said before I'd rather there not be any tragedy associated with Goliath and Elisa's relathionship. Disappointment sure. Like inability to conceive, that's disappointing, not so much tragic."

What is life without tragic circumstances? A life without tragedy is impossible, thus, I think, why Greg W. has chosen that path. You honestly can't expect the lives of Elisa and the clan to be full of "little disappointments", because that just isn't the way life is. And if nothing else, I think whatever Greg W plans to do will be brilliantly done; I have faith in him to tell a damn good story that, while fantastical, echoes reality in just the right way.

As for Puck helping Elisa and Goliath get a kid... did you not hear what Oberon said? Puck is ONLY allowed to use his powers when protecting or training Alexander. They can't just go up to him and say, "Yo, Trickster, make me a pregnant hoochie mama so I can pop out a baby that represents our mutual love that lasts eternal." No, no, no. Alex would have to be the one to do that spell, possibly with Puck's help, and who is to say either of them would even agree to do it?

And to be frankly honest, I simply do not see Elisa or Goliath going to Puck OR Alexander for aid in that aspect. The main reason why I think that is because Puck has already done more to them than they'd like (the Coldstone, Coldfire, Coldsteel incident, for example. And gargoyles do not trust that easily), and I highly doubt that they would trust him (or Alexander) enough to perform a spell like that on them. Particularly since Fey spells all come with a price, and it's not likely that they would accept whatever price that may be just for the sake of having a kid of their own.

Personally, I think Elisa and Goliath would (if it turns out that way) accept the fact that they are biologically incompatable and leave it at that. If they decided to adopt, there are problems with that, but there are solutions available - and I'm sure that, if it came to that, they would be very careful with the choice they make. They're not going to turn around and abruptly adopt a kid; they'd put a lot of thought into it.

And why, WHY are you bastardizing the name of William Shakespeare? I can just see the poor bugger rolling in his grave every time you call him "Billy" or "Billy Shakes". Honestly. The poor sod deserves better than that.

As for Puck's miles-per-hour thing:

.... Right.
*goes back into lurkdom*

The Sadistic Cow
The one thing dead people are good at is floating in the water and they're wasting money by buyin' 'em cushions! - Richard Jeni

You'd just get crumbs in the bed anyway, Shinigami.
Lynati

Cookies? But I just cleaned out my cache. ^_^
Mara

Ooo Ooo Ooo ME ME ME!!!!

:takes the cookie:

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm cooooooookiiiiesssssssss

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Uh..................Who wants a cookie *takes out a tray of home baked cookies*
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
My friend got a python with a 300 chrisler kit on it and whenever he stops at a red light, the rims stay still but the car starts moving................oh, and one more thing.....DON'T THINK ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

... no comment
Leo

. . .
Mara

"Except that Puck had his powers stripped from him save for training or protecting Alexander. And Alex is way too young for that lesson.

What's wrong with adoption?"

Absolutely nothing at all. However, think of it like this... Goliath is only available during the night -- even if Angela were to babysit their kid, she's only available at night (unless they had Uncle Owen do some fancy spell). Elisa is in a high risk job and again is really onle available during some portions of the day .

Maybe the Tragic result of Elisa and Goliath's child (adopted or natural) is the fact that neither of them would breally be able to take care of the kid? Either that or what would be Tragic is Goliath missing certain times of his child's life growing up (as he did with Angela)... to a dad that's pretty tragic.

Adoption or Natural, one or many kids, those two have a pretty harsh schedule and some fancy juggling with friends and family would have to be worked around. Also, if they adopted a kid, I seriously doubt Elisa would pass a standard adoption proceeding. Her life as a Detective on a Police Force serving as a single mother would pretty much shut her out of all adoption (not including the fact she's a minority. Being a minority and trying to adopt is thousand times harder according to the last adoption census/review. It is not something of which this country should be proud, but it is the truth). IF they adopt a kid it'd probably have to be a big sercret or illegal or an adopt of some other gargoyle offspring/egg that hadn't yet hatched. Then again, the Fae loved to kidnap children, and people used to have a healthy fear of this... What is frightening about this note is that superstitous parents used to beat unwanted children in the hopes that they would be stolen by fairies (of course there are no fairies, imagine being a kid and growing up in that kind of awfully abusive household). Considering greg is a big sportster of Billy's work, the Tragedy may be a kidnapping on behest of Titania, whereupon Goliath and Elisa have to rescue their child from the fairy queen.

Yes it is true Puck had his powers stripped, but really, he can trick Oberon and Titania to do whatever he wants if he puts his mind to it. I never discount puck from anything.

OH HEY here's a treat for you guys.

I'll tell you the minimum fastest speed of which Puck has boasted.

According to London's star boy playright: Billy Shakes, Puck can travel at a whopping 37,500 miles per hour. That's his minimum run speed. I believe that Puck could easily match 40-50,000mph. If you want to know how I got that number, Asimov's Guide to Shakespear ;D

Point is, if Puck can manage to run 37,500 mph I'm sure he could manage some trick ;D

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Except that Puck had his powers stripped from him save for training or protecting Alexander. And Alex is way too young for that lesson.

What's wrong with adoption?

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush

I could've sworn though that that other female gargoyle's eyes went some other color than red...
As for Demona not being sick -- I can't agree on that on any level. She's clearly suffering from paranoia. It's not just schitzoid paranoia, there are other types of paranoia where the sufferer is constantly super-imposing their actions on other people. Demona has done this several times, where she claims to know how someone else did something, when it was the exact opposite.

"I don't see why Angela would have to die just so Goliath and Elisa can adopt a kid. What does one thing have to do with the other? Why can't Goliath have more than one kid? They'll have plenty of children to raise in the rookery sense, like his grandchildren, and probably adopted children. It is the Gargoyle Way. :P"

Hey I was just saying a fear I have over Greg's comment concerning tragedy. I've seen writers do some really screwed up things over the years (Douglass Adams blew up Earth at the end of mostly harmless because he said he didn't want anyone to write anymore books and the publishers said they had a right to have others release books in the name since he sold all the rights). And every time a writer did something like that they said they HAD to in order to Keep Balance (which is total cop out answer).

The fates referd to Demona and Macbeth as them being their responsibility and they'd have to take care of them as if they were their children. In Billy's language (remember these fates are Billy's characters), that's admitting a mistake. Not only that but aren't the Fates in Gargoyles supposed to be part of the Third Race and not actually the real Fates?

"Why would anyone name a baby after a mass murderer?"

You must not read any sci-fi books. Well, here's one instance of many I've come across: Leia and Han name their youngest son Anakin. Because he turned his life around before dying.

It's absolutely ridiculous, I agree, but it is a theme which repeats itself among many writers. I sincerely hope that Greg doesn't do it. Like I said in my original post, I believe I am the first Gargoyles fan who's asked greg "NOT to do something".

"What does one thing have to do with the other? Liking something doesn't mean you'll automatically sleep with it. And besides, Greg Weisman wants to keep Goliath and Elisa's romance special, so there will be no other human/gargoyle relationships. "

Well I was talking about Demona being human and gargoyle due to Puck's gift. Puck being the sucker for star crossed lovers that he is, might conceivably do the same thing with Elisa and Goliath... That's what I was saying.

Demona having a human child well... she's a sick puppy, who knows why she'd do it, or how. Maybe she's kidnapped or raped when she's other wise helpless (god I hope not) or maybe she tries to do it in order to create a perfect killer to rid herself of whomever. Who knows?

And Goliath and Elisa having a relationship isn't what makes it unique (them being gargoyle and human) what makes them unique is their background stories and unequated love.

For the record, Macbeth and Demona were once physical items before Demona turned on Macbeth and destroyed his kingdom. So if you're talking about Goliath and Elisa being unique because of Gargoyle/Human love, that's not true at all.

I don't believe Elisa being turned into a gargoyle would take away her humanity at all. The entire crux of the series is based on showing the humanity and inhumanity of all species and manner of people. If I had to pick a tragedy that I would prefer over another tragedy, that's what I'd pick.

Again, I am only responding to Greg's comments that Goliath adn Elisa having a kid will be accompanied by some sort of Tragedy. There are some Tragedies of which authors have written that I do not care for at all and I was only expressing my concerns at the use of the word.

"And fake her own death? If she really loves them, then she'd tell them about her change. "

Elisa would tell her FAMILY and FRIENDS about the change, but Certainly not her Police Captain. It is those people to whom she'd have to fake her death. Just once I'd like to see a baby born in comics that is a happy occasion all around no tragedy whatsoever. But if there is tragedy (like Greg suggested) I'm making a list of all the tragic things I can think of in the post.

"Have you seen Hunter's Moon? Remember Hudson cutting through armor with his blade? Remember him dragging Goliath all over the place in Long Way to Morning and protecting him from Demona? And you think he's not fit to be a warrior? No, I'd say there are years of fighting left in him. "

I've been watching the gargoyles from the first episode again in time for the comics so I am all caught up. And it seems you are neglecting to remember the episodes where Hudson is clutching his back due to pains/aging/arthritis, where he's constantly getting beat down, and where he chooses to sit down and watch tv while others go on patrol. Especially in the second season you notice he's not patrolling much and he's talking about his aching body and how he's too old for that sort of thing.


Ever see kung fu movies? You know how they haev an aging sensei who can still kick butt, but his age is catching up with him? When the bad guys come up kill him and the young students have to avenge their master? Yeah, well, I don't want to see Hudson active to the point after his body is so worn out he can no longer do a kick with wincing in pain from the arthritis. He needs to shift down from fourt to second gear for a while. He's already shifted down from 5th gear in the cartoon. He needs to be taking it easy, but still present to help the others when absolutely needed.

I'm not saying stick him in a cage and toss away the key. He needs his exercise. I'm just saying he needs to not stick himself into any fist fights where there's a danger of him dying. Angela can take his place on Patrol. It always seem to me as if she were being groomed for the open position.

As I said before I'd rather there not be any tragedy associated with Goliath and Elisa's relathionship. Disappointment sure. Like inability to conceive, that's disappointing, not so much tragic. They can find ways around their situation with magic or the fates. Puck is always a last resort as a stand in for a fertility doctor. Whenever a writer uses the word traggedy I think the worst, because as a longtime buyer of comic books, it's usually been-- the worst.

(I direct you to the last 5 years of Nightwing).

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin Conner: Hi, I had a few things to say about your posts, in no particular order...

"I always thought that Demona was suffering from some biological-psychological problem. Severe paranoia from the very beginning. It would be neat if we find out she is diagnossed with a medical condition and winds up healing herself or taking pills. It would also explain why her eyes are red luminescent (chemical imbalance)."

The red glow of Demona's eyes are not the result of a chemical imbalance. A male gargoyle's eyes glow white, while the females' glow red. Just look at Angela and you'll see what I mean. And Demona's not sick. She's just in deep denial. You would be, too, if you had been responsible for the deaths of your loved ones.

"I was also thinking more about the tragedy and came to a horrible thought -- Angela would be killed. I sincerely hope that Greg doesn't go the cliche route of killing off Angela for Goliath and Elisa to have a child, it would be too much."

I don't see why Angela would have to die just so Goliath and Elisa can adopt a kid. What does one thing have to do with the other? Why can't Goliath have more than one kid? They'll have plenty of children to raise in the rookery sense, like his grandchildren, and probably adopted children. It is the Gargoyle Way. :P

"That's what the fates/weird sisters think, but even they aren't so sure. The third race constalty makes mistakes with their spells."

The Fates don't make mistakes. All things are true. And Demona and Macbeth WILL NOT DIE until one destroys the other. You can't change that.

"Demona Dying and them naming th ebaby Night Angel is also possible, however, I do not consider Demona dying to be Tragic. It could only really be tragic if Demona somehow changed her life around and became a good guy. But who knows."

Why would anyone name a baby after a mass murderer? And Demona turning her life around wouldn't be tragic. Her tragedy is living in denial and blaming all her problems on humanity. That's what makes her such a tragic character. If you take that away, then she stops being Demona.

"Demona liking humans in the future always put me on edge, because that's one step closer to her having a half-gargoyle half-human child."

What does one thing have to do with the other? Liking something doesn't mean you'll automatically sleep with it. And besides, Greg Weisman wants to keep Goliath and Elisa's romance special, so there will be no other human/gargoyle relationships.

And anyway, who says she'll like humans?

"Another thing might be is Elisa might be changed to a gargoyle (again) only permanent, that would be tragic in the sense she'd have to fake her own death for many people that knew her. This would be better."

How would that be better? That would be awful. If you turn Elisa into a gargoyle, then she stops being Elisa. You can't take away her humanity without changing who she is.

And fake her own death? If she really loves them, then she'd tell them about her change. Why would anyone want to trick their parents into thinking that one of their children died? That sounds needless cold, cowardly and cruel. Elisa isn't like that. But it's a moot point, since she's never going to be a gargoyle again.

"I hope that he doesn't kill Hudson, but I don't think Hudson should be fighting battles anymore. Being a detective and pillar of support and training sensei should be where he's headed. But he's definitely getting to the point physically where he can't really act the warrior."

Have you seen Hunter's Moon? Remember Hudson cutting through armor with his blade? Remember him dragging Goliath all over the place in Long Way to Morning and protecting him from Demona? And you think he's not fit to be a warrior? No, I'd say there are years of fighting left in him.

One more thing...

Gargoyles isn't about tragedy for tragedy's sake. It's about hope, love, sacrifices... and yes, a bit of tragedy. But isn't that what life's about?

Woo, this was a long post. Sorry about that. I felt it needed to be said. :P

D. Taína - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game

Sorry for double post I hit send too early:

Demona Dying and them naming th ebaby Night Angel is also possible, however, I do not consider Demona dying to be Tragic. It could only really be tragic if Demona somehow changed her life around and became a good guy. But who knows.

I just hope it isn't some awful cliche death like killing Angela (having demona kill her or whatever), having hte baby get kidnapped/killed too peter parker and totally turn me off, killing off Fox or Xanatos' kid would also be too much. But so far Love triumphs over all in Gargoyles, so I doubt Greg would ever do anything that cliche or damaging to the Gargoyles universe.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

That's what the fates/weird sisters think, but even they aren't so sure. The third race constalty makes mistakes with their spells. What if somehow demona manages to kill Macbeth but doesn't die herself (say she was mixing magics), or maybe they tried to break the spell, and something went wrong in that aspect.

I was also thinking more about the tragedy and came to a horrible thought -- Angela would be killed. I sincerely hope that Greg doesn't go the cliche route of killing off Angela for Goliath and Elisa to have a child, it would be too much. When they did that with Dukat's daughter in DS9 it totally turned me off of the series - that's when it started going downhill. In fact I'd really rather like to see Angela act the role of babysitter in the future, have an Adventure in Babysitting, that'd be a fun issue to read.

Another thing might be is Elisa might be changed to a gargoyle (again) only permanent, that would be tragic in the sense she'd have to fake her own death for many people that knew her. This would be better.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Kevin> Considering that Macbeth and Demona can only die by each other's hands, I don't see either one outliving the other.

Thus, I lean more towards Demona dying in that situation, because that's what would happen.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Ever read Test of the Twins series for Dragonlance?

Rastlin becomes the god of all evil. And sends his time travelling brother and the kender back in time to warn his previous self not to do it because Bupu will die. Winds up that Rastlin ends up having his guts chewed upon for all eternity.

I'm convinced that if Macbeth :P there spelled it right :P hope your happy!!!! lol I believe that when or if Macbeth dies he will be the human/death that causes Demona to question herself. She'll find herself alone, and with nothing left to blame. She can't even blame Goliath because she feeds on her anthesis' anger. He has none toward her. He has pity. Sooner or later she'll give up on killing Elisa (especially if they get married and G+D's daughter tells Demona that Elisa acts more responsible or motherly or whatever it is than Demona).

Macbeth's death would definitely have to be something that causes Demona to snap. She'll be so consumed with rage, rage that she normally expends on Macbeth, rage that doesn't feel right to unleash on anyone else. That rage will consume her and either she'll die or she'll live and change.

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

I hope that I'm not coming across as too nitpicky about this, but the proper spelling is "Macbeth" rather than "MacBeth". There's only one capital letter in his name. (The same thing goes for the Shakespearean original.)

HARVESTER - That last paragraph of yours reminds me of the question that I sometimes amusedly speculate over: what would Demona's response be if somebody else were to wipe out humanity? Delight that they were all gone, or fury over the fact that somebody else had done it and she'd been cheated out of her revenge? Obviously, we'll never get to see such an event in the series no matter what form it takes, but it's still an amusing thing to consider.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

WOW so many responses, you guys are very nice.

As for splinter -- oh god no, don't bother with the new comic. Peter Laird hired his low-talent friend to draw the comic, named Jim Lawson. I have a website about Jim's artwork. It is very very very very bad artwork. I have never said this before about any comic but I can draw better than he can.

http://members.aol.com/kevinconne/

that's splinter's funeral. It is the single best page of artwork Jim Lawson has ever produced, and it is awful.

Anyway, sorry for that.

I always felt that either Demon and MacBeth have three possible futures:
1. They will be eternally strugling against one another because they can never die.
2. Somehow the spell will be broken and demona will be responsible accidently killing macbeth, then go through a crisis of conscience about his death.
3. They will both die.

I always thought that Demona was suffering from some biological-psychological problem. Severe paranoia from the very beginning. It would be neat if we find out she is diagnossed with a medical condition and winds up healing herself or taking pills. It would also explain why her eyes are red luminescent (chemical imbalance).

I always thought of macbeth as a good guy just from a different era. He never wants to kill the gargoyles and is always stopping demona from doing it.

I hope that he doesn't kill Hudson, but I don't think Hudson should be fighting battles anymore. Being a detective and pillar of support and training sensei should be where he's headed. But he's definitely getting to the point physically where he can't really act the warrior.

Demona liking humans in the future always put me on edge, because that's one step closer to her having a half-gargoyle half-human child. But then again it might work, or maybe it's a hint as to how Elisa and Goliath may solve their problem...

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

Patrick: I had the weirdest dream two nights ago. You might get a kick out of this. For some reason, Genesis was playing at this Irish pub in downtown Fredericksburg (the trio lineup of Banks, Collins, and Rutherford). I kept asking them to play "Duke's Travels," and they kept ignoring me. As I'm leaving the bar, I run into Banks, and I say "Hey, Tony. You guys were great!" And he responds by taking my eyeglasses. Ah, well, it's still better than the dreams I usually have.


Reno: Yeah, he is a plethora of wisdom. One of the scenes from "Long Way to Morning" that I was glad to see on the DVD again (it was cut on ToonDisney) was the scene in 984 where Hudson makes the torch. I just love how quickly he throws it together. I mean, there are other scenes from the episode that demonstrate his intelligence, but that's perhaps my favorite. And as far as his fighting skills are concerned, he might not have been a physical match for Demona, but I sure as hell can't deflect laser blasts with a sword while flipping through the air.


Concerning Demona, she is a survivor, among other things, and is willing to do what necessity demands. I agree that if it were a threat to gargoyles as well as humans, Demona wouldn't have any qualms with an alliance. But I like to think that one of her underlying reasons for such an alliance would be that if this threat is successful in its intent, not only will it compromise the situation for her own race, it will steal her chance for revenge against humanity, as well. So it would be a limited truce only. And as we have seen in her alliance with Xanatos (and also the way she duped Brooklyn), she's an expert at telling people what they want to hear. I imagine if she needed aid from a group of humans, she'd tiptoe around the more juicy details of her life.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Never travel through the aorta after eating German food." -Dave Barry's travel motto.

Speaking of character death. Does anyone care to speculate on how Greg W. plans on ending Demona and MacBeth's eternal life? It would be ironic if either Demona or MacBeth killed the other by accident.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

*clicks the link*

LOL! @ Attack Of The Killer Kitties.

Nice artwork. Kind of reminded me of the Marvel Gargs design, and Bronx's style was interesting.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

The Sadistic Cow> Oh. Yeah. Doy. *forehead slap*

My thanks you have. :P

Kevin> "They recently killed off splinter with a heart attack in TMNT Comic book."

Say WHAT?! You've gotta be kidding me! *hasn't read a TMNT comic in years* Obviously, I need to start reading it again. It sounds like I've been missing out. Any place online where I can read/see this?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Demona works with humans every day. Can you imagine being in a cubicle farm and having her as your boss?

Stupid thunderstorms chased me offline yesterday before I had a chance to post the countdown. I will not be foiled again.

2 days left to pre-register for the convention.
22 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]

JURGAN> Demona is not too irrational to ally with humans to get what she wants. She allied with Xanatos, afterall.

It would be an alliance of convenience. Nothing else.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush

My guess on the "tragedy" aspect is that Goliath and others are fighting some villain with a child and the villain dies, so G and E adopt it. This is just a guess, of course, but it's what makes sense to me.

Here's a thought bubble I've had: Is there any case where anyone can imagine Demona temporarily allying with humans to protect gargoyles? We know that eventually she will work with the resistance against the Space-Spawn, which will involve humans and gargoyles, and maybe even some fey, but could it happen in the present day? Let's say Queen Mab decides to rescind Oberon's decree and destroy the Manhattan Clan. Is it conceivable that Demona would work with some group of humans temporarily to save her clan, or would her hatred be too much to get over it? Supposing she did, how would it work? If said humans knew what Demona was capable of, would they be able to trust her? Would she try to betray them the minute the threat was gone? If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please say so.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

HoE: Aye, the old soldier's got some time left in him but he's clearly showing his age. I think he's going to play a critical role with the younger generation as a teach as much as he is a fighter. Though he did fight a heroic delaying action, when puch came to shove he was still no match for Demona. Lucky for him, he made sure he lasted just long enough for the sun to come. Too bad it wouldn't have worked after "The Mirror" as our plucky redhead would have made short work of him. I actually find Hudson more interesting than Goliath most of the time, he's got this spunky prankster in him. ;)
Reno
There have been other times when a danger upon the world have required the services of certain, singular individuals...

Kevin: Don't write Hudson out just yet. Towards the end of the first 65 episodes (in particular "Vendettas" and "Hunter's Moon") we saw that he was still capable of kicking some ass. I think Greg has said that he knows in his mind when each character will die, so he's the only one who can say how much time each character has left. I myself think that what Goliath told Hudson at the end of "Long Way to Morning" is true. The old soldier's not licked yet.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Watch the monkey get hurt!"

<b>Hi, Kevin, and welcome! Regarding Elisa and Goliath and parenting issues, anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I don't think Greg had any real tragedy in mind for them. Just a lack of success in conceiving, since they're not biologically compatible.
Ellen</b>
Ty ellen!:D

I hope so, I mean, people dying of old age and stuff is all good, it's when they start doing the soap opera thing in comics that makes me cringe. That whole thing with Peter Parker's daughter just made me so sick of spiderman I can't even stand the movies. Then again Greg's writing hand was always steady and that's one reason why I liked the show.

Demona and MacBeth are the quintessential mythological heroes who should be prime to die. Then again, they are protected by the weird sisters (fates) so, maybe death is too good for Demona lol.

I'm kinda expecting Hudson to be written to the side line to tell you the truth. He is getting very old. How he's sidelined is anyone's guess, but logically, Hudson was severely showing his age when the show began. They recently killed off splinter with a heart attack in TMNT Comic book. I hope hudson lives a long time but I don't expect it.

Speculation:
As for natural conception between goliath and elisa I agree with you, however, Puck likes them, and Puck is always a sucker for star crossed lovers (especially in WS' Midsummer Night's Dream). I don't put anything past that trickster. He is really one of my favorite characters. Puck was never malicious to the gargoyles or elisa, and I always believed that Puck chose to be Xanatos' bodyguard in order to try and mold him into a fair and just ruler (like he did with Oberon in Bill's play). It also always seemed to me that Greg loved to write Puck when it was logical.

So I'm waiting to see what happens. There are so many ways that Elisa and Goliath can work it out, well, I'd just be guessing. Then there's spellcasting MacBeth, Demona, Gen-U-Tech. Man the possibilities are endless. Oberon himself. The fates...... hell even the illuminati! I'm just naming all of the characters in the series at this point LOL

Just speculating. This is one series where I am happy to sit back and watch the artist's creative mind at work, as he always managed a decent surprise or turn in the storyline, keeping it fresh and rarely predictable.

What I mean by that is you couldn't guess what the next episode would bring. Other cartoons (GI Joe and Transformers) you would always know what the next episode was like. I bet Greg has a plan for Elisa and Goliath that nobody else has yet to conceived.

I hope there will be an official messageboard for the comic when it comes out.

Sincerely,

Kevin Conner

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

kjay-- Umm... why not try calling the various shops in your local area before you go trekking all over the city? Just a thought...
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.

King Cobra - Rocket science, it isn't! Click the link in her name, you must.

/end Yoda

The Sadistic Cow
The one thing dead people are good at is floating in the water and they're wasting money by buyin' 'em cushions! - Richard Jeni

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury> *mock offense* Hey, I liked that ride! I liked it because it was completely dark (mostly), but still... and, no, it wasn't raining. At least not when I was riding it, and I ended up with a bad sunburn that day.

Shara> URL? :)

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Yes, keep in mind that except for Demona and Macbeth and the members of the Third Race and their descendents everyone we know and love in the series will die eventually. Thats what happens in the future, people die. Its a tragedy, yes, but part of life. As for Goliath and Elisa not being able to have a biological child, that only seems realistic. A gargoyle and a human are probably as closely related as an Ostrich and a Turtle are, having either of these pairs able to produce offspring is absurd. Perhaps they will adopt a child or something, but we really don't know, and keep in mind Greg has told us very little information on the subject so don't get upset yet. Who knows how things will turn out.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

kjay>hehe just to clear up some confusion. The gargoyle webcomic is an online comic put together by fans and we dont sell it. It's just there cause we are crazy obsessed fans. ;-)

The SLG comic is the one you want to buy.

Ellen>I'm really looking forward to talking to you more at the gathering this year.

Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Hi, Kevin, and welcome! Regarding Elisa and Goliath and parenting issues, anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I don't think Greg had any real tragedy in mind for them. Just a lack of success in conceiving, since they're not biologically compatible.
Ellen

Gargoyle comic>When it comes out I'm most likily going to try to order it. I can't stand the fustration of going from store to store trying to find something, I learnt that lession from buying the Gargs on DVD. From what I seen on the SLG site the artwork looks great, but the human characters could be done a little better. Since Greg is doing the writing it'll be worth reading.
kjay - [tigonesskay@yahoo.com]

For anyone attending the gathering. Will be having more contests at our booth. Meet one of our artists for the gargoyle webcomic. Will be giving away t-shirts and other fun stuff. Will have a book of some of the up coming covers for comics we have planned.
(and you get a chance to throw tomatos at me for not having the site updated ;-) ) that was humor by the way. ;-P

Http://www.ka-blamo.com/gargs

For anyone interested The MGC and the gargoyle webcomic have teamed up to do a pannel that will talk about how to make a good Fandom website and keep it going. Free stuff will be handed out to thoughs that attend.

http://mgc.gargoyles-fans.org/

Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Man I'm 27 years old but still hit the browser buttons when I fill out webforms.

Oh well, I'll retype most of what I said:

I am very happy that Gargoyles comic is coming out, because it was one of the few superhero type cartoons I enjoyed. No, I was never a real fan compared to most, but I enjoyed it because it harnesssed what I like about classic superhero stories and it also introduced many kids to mythology and classic works (even through name recognition). I thought this was great. Everyone talks about Superheroes being reincarnations of classic mythology, well, here we have an original mythological series in present day.

I was reading the FAQ and was happy to see that GC is not considered canon. Even though Greg feels regretful that he didn't accept the deal to write the episodes, it may have been best that he didn't. Why? well, he would be blamed for the series ending and may not have had the leverage to restart the comic in the way he wanted to do it. All in all, I believe he can do much much more with this comic than he could have ever done with the final season of Gargoyles.

There is only one thing that disturbs me about what was said in the faq. Something to the effect of the far flung future with Goliath and Elisa, how their attempts to having a child might end with tragedy or have tragedy involved... I've recenrlt canned my DC and all but one Marvel book because all they have become is kill kill kill. Peter Parker's baby still born, then kidnapped, then forgotten, Batman being accused of a murderer, Nightwing's home town being bombed off the face of the earth... Maybe I am totally misreading his comments on Tragedy, I sincerely hope I am. I just don't want it to be one of those completely crushing Tregedies where the reader just says, "Ehhh. I'm done."

On the subject of procreation-- Demona turning into a human during the day has always totally freaked me out on that subject and many others. I just thank god she's a racist/gargoyle-supremist.

Funny I think this is the first time a fan has asked Greg to NOT do something. lol

Well, I've got some high hopes for this comic. It embodies a lot of things that I believe are missing from many comics.

Don't know if you're reading this Greg but I just really have one thing to say as a writer:
Don't get bogged down with same old characters. The Mundane isn't always mundane. Too many times I read superheroes who are always in galactic battles and forget what's important at the homestead. Keep mixin' it up! Many big time writers totally forget to do this, and their work turns trashy real quick (coughbrucejones'nightwingcough).


Sincerely,

Kevin Conner
Northglenn, CO

PS: I am pretty sure I followed the rules on this post, if I didn't please shoot me an email thx!

Kevin Conner - [dalbozofgurth@aol.com]

ATTENTION GATHERING PEOPLE!!!

Are you going to the Gathering this summer?

Would you like to help out?

WE NEED SOME HELP!

We are looking for gofers, errand runners, guest wranglers, people to watch stuff like the art show and the dealers' room, people to help out at the Radio Play auditions, people to help out with the Masquerade. We're not asking you to devote your weekend to us, we're asking for a few hours of your time so that the convention can run even more smoothly.

If you want to help, email me at volunteer@gatheringofthegargoyles.com! If you think you'll be twiddling your thumbs at some point, let me know, and I'll find a job for you.

We specifically need 4 people to help with the Guests on Saturday and Sunday. Cindy, who heads the Art Show, has also requested a few people to sit in for her so she can have a break, and teach some panels. If some of you will be arriving early, help with the Art Show setup will be appreciated. There are several more jobs that would need filling, so please email me at the adress above so I can include you in our team.

Thanks!

Kanthara - [volunteer@gatheringofthegargoyles.com]
Lots of castles in Wales, but not that many gargoyles. Hm.

Kingcobra: <Patrick> "Argh! Sorry for the multiple posts. My computer hiccupped."

Wow, that must be one magical computer. :P>

That, or it just can't hold its liquor.

Reno: Nah, just pointing out that I usually wind up liking things that other people don't seem to like. But the other thing could be true. I've never really paid attention to the type of music that two people like. This might sound selfish, but I'm really not too interested in other people's relationships. Only my own.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"On a sailing ship from nowhere, leaving any place. If the summer changed to winter, your's is no disgrace." -Yes ("The Yes Album")

HoE: So what you're saying is that people have different tastes in music, and that makes them compatible? Curious...

Actually when I was wandering around the shops in Downtown Disney a couple years ago the one that had all the sketches and cells had a bunch of Gargoyles ones. Unfortunately the shop was closed, so alas, I was disapointed. But just goes to show you, at least SOME people are interested in gargs at Disney.

Reno
More on the news that has rocked Manhattan, if not the world...

Dragomir > this is totally off-topic, but you don't play City of Villains, perchance, do you?

Okay, folks ... the Grimorum Anthology went to the printers today! It's gonna be gorgeous, and it's packed full of great stories and art! Don't miss out. Order your copy today!

Christine - [<--- pre-order the Grimorum Anthology here!]

KingCobra> You actually waited in line for Disaster Transport? Oh, wait... There actually WAS a line for Disaster Transport?! Let me guess, it was raining. That has to be the WORST non-kiddie roller coaster there. Either that or the Iron Dragon. Maybe next summer I'll get back there. Haven't been there since they opened the Millenium Force.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury

Spen> I see.

Still considering starting another one anyway, though. Probably this weekend.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

KingCobra : To the best of my recollection there is.
Spen
Why do people always use sports metephors when they want you to do somthing stupid? - David Swaine

Off-topic, I was thinking of starting an IRC Gargs chat room.

Is there one already? Just curious.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

"The Flintstones" was what today might be termed "stone punk," in the same way that "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and "Wild Wild West" fall into the genre of "steam punk." Technology as advanced - or even more advanced - as that of the present age, but implemented using the materials and machines of the time.

I believe that MGT3K will be right after the Opening Ceremonies. There's a convention schedule posted on our web site.

4 days left to pre-register for the convention.
24 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
How cute. The Juggernaut ripped off Dave Chappelle.

Dragomir> Sounds fun, dude. Glad you had a good time. :) Your mention of Gargs there reminded me of some "Lexington" images that was on the wall in the long line at the Disaster Transport ride @ Cedar Point last summer that I'm wishing now I could've taken a picture of for you guys. Maybe if it's still there next time I go...
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Patrick> "Argh! Sorry for the multiple posts. My computer hiccupped."

Wow, that must be one magical computer. :P

HoE> I'd be interested in reading that. URL to your LJ please? If it's no trouble.

Jade Griffin> Very cool that there's gonna be a MGT3K. I'm a MiSTie nut. Name the time and exact location and I'll be there. :)

Flintstones> I remember from when I was a kid how I would come home from school and find mom reliving her childhood with her old friends Fred and Wilma. I never got into it myself, though. Always looked kind of boring to me. I was always more into non-humanized cartoons like Taz-mania (Digeri Dingo being my fave character) and Sonic The Hedgehog.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Hi everyone, I'm back from anime Boston and man oh man, did I EVER HAVE A BLAST!!! I got loads of cool DVDs and manga, got an autographed poster from the anouncer of kaiju Big Battle, and had loads of fun identifying all my fave anime characters (there were hundreds of Zabuza's from the anime Naruto). I saw the preview for the new Robotech Shadow Chronicles movie as well (the voice actor of Batou from Ghost in the Shell is Captain Vince Grant in the movie!). There was a ninja congo line as well, lol. I even saw a few garg fanarts as well, though some of them could have passed as dragon people. Hope everbody is doing well!
Dragomir
"They're bbbaacckkk..." says the creepy kid from Poltergeist as me and my friends cosplaying as One Piece pirates enter the room

I was always more of a Jetsons fan myself.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

The flintstones was ALWAYS on on CTV at Noon, and I rushed home to watch it EVERYDAY for YEARS UPON YEARS. I want to buy the season on DVD because I'm sure there are some eps 9Season 1) that I've never seen yet.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! ... ...

The Flintstones, other than being a great parody of the honeymooners, was-at least in it's original run in the 1960s, provided a great time capsule on the culture of the time, poking fun at everything from the Beatles, Elvis, surfing, The twist, The munsters/Addams family, Bewitched, James Bond, and many other movies & TV shows. Hey, it paved the way for shows like the Simpsons. Sure, it's tame in comparison - but it had it's creative moments...and some great voice talent.

Then again, I grew up watching the Flintstones everday at lunch time for almost 20 years...so I'm kinda brainwashed ^_~

Wingless

I'm sure the flinstones was set in pre-history with all the dinosaurs and stuff but why they had televisions, cars, and other dohickies is beyond me (Besides the fact it's a cartoon)...........I don't know what I'm sayin'. It's just been a while since a posted and I didn't want to be left out with my CR buddies :)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
My friend got a python with a 300 chrisler kit on it and whenever he stops at a red light, the rims stay still but the car starts moving................oh, and one more thing.....DON'T THINK ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spen> What was brought up in the commentary was that one of the three commentators (I forget which one and don't feel like going through it again) says that MacBeth should have said "beldams", not "bedlams". That and the spell that allows them to speak whatever language is being spoken, or something like that. I personally prefer the Babel Fish as a means to get around language barriers.

Todd> I fully understand the infeasability of using the correct form of the language that was used at the time. Bedlam just jumped out at me since I recently finished a Dickens novel (with the handy-dandy notes that Penguin and Oxford include with classics) that mentioned the origin of the word bedlam in the notes.

Patrick> Isn't the Flintstones set in pre-history? So, maybe they did speak modern English. Maybe modern English just got forgotten and then reappeared several millenia later. I'm not a hardcore follower of anime, but I much prefer subtitled anime. Maybe it has something to do with annoying subbing like in Revolutionary Girl Utena.

Rewatching the first eps of season two reminded me why I almost stopped watching the show. After the first week of new shows (Leader of the Pack, Metamorphosis, and Legion), I was pretty disallusioned with the series. Only "Lighthouse" on Thursday got me to give it a chance and tune in the next week. Then "The Mirror" aired and I was re-hooked.
One other comment on the S2-V1 set: they didn't expand on the Gargoyles font correctly.

The line from Avalon "All things are true" reminds me of the reasoning as to why gods and goddesses exist in either "The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul" or "Dirk Gently's Detective Agency" (I forget which book--been a while since I read them). I SOOOOOO want an I-Ching calculator.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"Hey, if they lugged Bronx along, the situation's got to be serious."

very clever Patrick, very vlever.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! ... ...

Pillow Fort! Yeah!! *dives in w/ chocolate donuts and ice cream*

BTW, SLG BETTER have copies for sale there cuz that is where I'm getting mine! Assuming it is out in time:) Better be fully stocked, man!

Also, a question. I am heading the Virgin Con panel. Any advice on what should be in there? Never attended one so I'm going blind. Although if I don't get any advice, I'm sure it'll be quite a fresh experience, though I don't think anyone attends but virgins anyway:) Look for MGT3K as well as the Crossover panel. I'm doing those too. Yes, I'm nuts! Go nuts! *is suddenly hungry for planters* Hm... *slinks out*

Jade Griffin

HARVESTER - You might want to take to heart Hudson's advice at the end of "The Thrill of the Hunt" about not believing everything that you see on television. :)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Well, that was a fun trip. Sort of. I'll rant more about it in my Livejournal. All I'll say here is that the highlight was unintentionally killing a ladybug with the grille of my car. That, and picking up a case of Sam Adams for only 30 bucks at this outlet in Pennsylvania.

Todd: You mean humans and dinosaurs didn't co-exist? Here I thought that clip I saw of the cowboy fighting the T-Rex was a newsreel.

Reno: I love it when we disagree. As someone who foolishly clings to a set of moral standards that I feel are obsolete in today's world, I found myself relating to Renard. But then again, I tend to like things that other people don't. I usually wind up listening to Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" by myself, since I'm the only one I know who thinks it rocks.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Well, I hope we're not too Messianic or a trifle too Satanic. We love to play the blues!"

Argh! Sorry for the multiple posts. My computer hiccupped.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]

Suspension of disbelief is my point. No one generally expects that the characters in movies or T.V. shows in the past are going to speak in historically accurate language and dialect. When you're trying to tell a story, the last thing you want is to have the audience unable to understand what the characters are saying.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"From the town of Bedrock, they're a page right out of history..."

Suspension of disbelief is my point. No one generally expects that the characters in movies or T.V. shows in the past are going to speak in historically accurate language and dialect. When you're trying to tell a story, the last thing you want is to have the audience unable to understand what the characters are saying.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
They're the modern stone-age family.

MATT - Yes, The Flintstones probably did its own share of contribution to the popular notion of cavemen and dinosaurs co-existing.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I just noticed something. Anybody watch Cloud Father's recently? How many lights are working on Beth's truck? I was watching the scene where Beth drives her father to the reservation and just noticed that only 1 headlight and 1 tailtight was on when she pulled off the main road to go to the reservation. Or is that an error on my tape?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Patrick, I hope you are not implying that the Flintstones was meant to have any sort of historical base to it. I mean, if you are gonna look at it that way, then I'd worry less about how the citizens of Bedrock spoke modern English and more about how they are using various species from diverse time periods and habitats as appliances.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

The Flintstones speaking English was an anacronism, too. But only hardcore followers of anime really like their cartoons to have subtitles.

5 days left to pre-register for the convention.
25 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"Ook, ook, aagh! (But Fedex hasn't been invented yet!)" - Caveman

Of course, having everyone speaking English in the flashbacks to 10th and 11th century Scotland was as much an anachronism in itself as the use of the term "bedlams" for the Weird Sisters. But it's customarily viewed as a translation convention since barely anybody would be able to follow it if they had had the cast speak in an early form of Gaelic or Anglo-Saxon English of the "Beowulf" variety.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Oops, this came up as I was typing. Reno, it was definatly the incorrect ending of "Vows".
Spen

B&C: I really dislike the episode "outfoxed" altogether. It had a few decent moments, but I felt that Renard seemed too heavy handed, too flat in his lecturing of Goliath. I mean, if he had the security footage he could clearly see that it was Demona who caused the damage to Fortress 1 anyway. But, I guess it made for a more interesting "Golem" later in the season. If I'm not mistaken, the ending of "Vows" on the DVD is the proper ending, the one of G and D in the clocktower is a lot prettier, but was confusing. I suppose one could get the idea that Goliath was pining over Demona when in fact he finally considered her an ex-mate rather than a wayward mate whom he could bring back into the fold.
Reno
More on the news that has rocked Manhattan, if not the world...

Blaqthourne : Actually, if I recall correctly, that was brought up in the commentary.
Spen
Why do people always use sports metephors when they want you to do somthing stupid? - David Swaine

Finally picked up the S2-V1 DVD a couple weeks ago. Been a while (several years) since I last watched any of these episodes.
I've wondered what's better from the business standpoint: everyone buying the DVD when it first comes out, and then no one buys it afterwards; or having sustained sales over a long period?

The first impressions I had of the set was: "Cool, the only character other than Goliath and Demona on the box is Bronx. Woohoo!!"; quickly followed by "Why did they have to go and use what has to be the WORST disc holder?!?". The only other set that I have that has it is for my all-time favorite series: the Iria SE tin. I hate it. As the review of the Iria SE tin at animeondvd.com states: "I dislike having the discs resting against each other, especially with one side being the data side."
Please, please, please don't use the same type of disc holder for S2-V2 (assuming it gets released).

I don't know why, but the thing I that struck me the most was all the bits that make me cringe, like the line from "Outfoxed": "We are even." "No, we are friends." Aaarghh! Or the way-wrong smile from Goliath at the end of "Upgrade".

One thing I don't remember ever noticing before was the bit in "The Mirror" when they're discussing how great it would be to be a shapeshifter, when Broadway says the line "...maybe even love" the scene pans over to Elisa and Goliath as they glance at each other.

I was surprised that they included the (if I'm not mistaken) incorrect ending to "Vows". Would have been nice to include the "correct" version as an extra.

I also see we STILL don't have the "eye-catches" for the ad breaks. Unless they just don't have them, I see no excuse not to have included them in either release, even as just extras.

I don't know if anyone ever mentioned this, but in "City of Stone", from what I've found, the word "bedlam" should not have been used. It wasn't used in the sense it is used in the episode at that time (1040). From what I've found, it wasn't used as a term for madness/lunacy/lunatic until the 17th century (a colloquial pronunciation of the Bethlehem Hospital in London which was founded in 1247 and became the first lunatic asylum in 1547). It might not have even been in existance since bedlam was a Middle English form of the town of Bethlehem, and 1040 was before Middle English was spoken (Norman Invasion (1066) through mid/late-15th century).
If, as in the commentary on the episode on the DVD, it was supposed to be beldam instead of bedlam, it still wouldn't be accurate since beldam originates from the 16th century as a term for an "aged woman" and the 15th century as "grandmother". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"Hey, if they lugged Bronx along, the situation's got to be serious."

........................Wow, 3am... thought I would at least get a spot in the top 10.

When does the comic book come out. Is it set to coincide with The Gathering? Would be cool if people could bring their comic and have the cover autographed.

Vin

castle0909

10th
Leo

nine
oneuk

I'm Henry the Eigth, I am!
Patrick

FARGLE! SEVENTH!!!

GO OILERS GO!!!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! GO OILERS GO!!! ... ...

sixth!
makhasu

FIFTH!!!!
The Sadistic Cow
The one thing dead people are good at is floating in the water and they're wasting money by buyin' 'em cushions! - Richard Jeni

**Sneaks in and hunkers down with Chameleongirl, bringing the milk**

Four!

Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.

*Builds a pillow fort and stocks it with cookies and doughnuts*
Third!

Chameleongirl
Chameleon may changer her spots, but she refuses to do plaid.

SECOND!!!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"They mostly come at night.... mostly..." -Newt, 'Aliens'

1st again
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
What does E.T. do that man doesn't? The answer is E.T. phoned home