Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Okay, well some of the Gargoyles dreams I've had I was actually in that Universe interacting with the characters and sometimes I'm only watching an episode. In this dream, I was sitting on the couch in my apartment with my boyfriend and this episode of Gargoyles came on. I immediatly noticed that I wasn't at all familiar with this episode and said as much to my boyfriend who didn't have any response to that (he has only seen a few episodes). So, I can't remember everything, but I clearly remember that Goliath throughout the episodes kept having flashbacks or something, the thing was he has no memory or where or when these events happened. In the flashbacks he was somewhere dark and was maybe being interrogated or something. I got the impression that his mind was erased after the incident, but because he was a gargoyle or something, it didn't work right and he remembered (this sounds an awful lot like some movie I've seen or something). Anyway, Goliath thinks hes under some spell or going crazy or something but eventually Elisa gets some tip on how to find out where Goliath was taken or something (this is a dream, so a lot doesn't make much sense). So Goliath, Elisa and Angela go to this place. I got the impression it was underground, but the place itself was basically a huge corridor covered in ancient art and stuff, it looked like Versailles, but darker, and at the end of this corridor was a room with a huge table in it. The room and table were rectangular and the table was nearly the size of the room, but oddly it was slightly turned so the corners of the table didn't meet up with the corners of the room. Anyway, Goliath says "What is this place..." and then we get a camera shot from above showing the turned table and Goliath, Elisa and Angela and then there is a commercial break, I kid you not. So, it comes back from the commercial, and thats when it started getting scary. So, this ghost thing comes screaming down the corridor into the room and it's loud and very creepy. It was floating in the air and had these dark black eyes. I think it mostly ignored Elisa and Angela, but it was taunting Goliath. Making creepy jokes and stuff and generally putting him down. I clearly remember at one point it was telling him how gargoyle isn't a Scottish word at all it was Roman (I'm not even sure this is accurate, but thats what the ghost said), and when Goliath started to say something the ghost partially engulfed Goliath and SCREAMED, "ROOOMAANNN!!!!" It was creepy, and I remember thinking, no wonder Disney never aired this episode, it would scare kids to death. So, then suddenly a mysterious figure comes walking down the corridor. I never got a clear look at this guy, he was always in shadow, but he seemed like an old male human, maybe in a suit or something. Anyway, he said "Begone you, leave him alone." And the ghost reluctantly left. Now, I don't know why, but for some reason this guy was far scarier than the ghost was. Not only did he creep me out, but Angela and Elisa ran over to Goliath out of fear as well, and heres the kicker, Goliath was scared out of his mind. I've been trying to think all morning if we ever saw Goliath scared like that, and I don't think we had. In "Shadows..." he was scared, but it wasn't like this. In my dream he was completly terrified, shaking and almost looking like he was gonna cry in fear. And I think that is what made this a nightmare for me, seeing good ole brave Goliath totally freaked out. Like if Goliath is that scared, I should be too. Anyway, this is about the time I woke up all sweaty and freaked out.

My boyfriend next to me knew I was freaked out cuz I was extremely thirsty but (i'm not afraid to admit) too scared to get out of bed. Eventually I did and I calmed down and went over the whole dream in my mind just so I wouldn't forget it. There were two funny parts in this dream. When Goliath was having his weird flashbacks, at one point he remembered himself in a room full of hundreds of Krispy Kream donuts *shrugs*, the other funny thing is that when the creepy old dude in the shadows came down the hallway, I remeber my boyfriend saying to me, "I think he is Polish." Other than that my only thought is that the guy seemed like he was involved in the Illuminati, like he was Duval or something.

Anyway, thats my creepy Gargoyles nightmare, sorry to ramble so long.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I haven't been down here since I hatched..." -Broadway, "Awakening"
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 2:12:50 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

So are any of these songs going to be videos at G2K7, or are we just throwing them out as character-appropiate?

Matt> I have a mild interest in hearing about dreams. Wanna share? :)
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 12:08:16 pm EST from 69.95.31.140

*Yawns*

Wow, I've had several dreams over the years about Gargoyles... but last night was my very first Gargoyles nightmare. Wow, I'm still a little shaken by it, it was terrifying. I feel like a little kid again...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I haven't been down here since I hatched..." -Broadway, "Awakening"
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 11:53:31 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg B: I've got her waist pegged at either 20 or 22.

Purplegoldfish: Lately, I've been associating the Offspring song "Amazed" with Demona. I'll probably come up with some more later, but first I gotta grab breakfast.
Harvester of Eyes
"And he moves beneath the covers, or he lies below the bed. He is the beast upon your shoulder, and he's the price upon your head." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 10:51:44 am EST from 71.63.40.84

meh, well I tried

Siren-ah, I thought I've seen a video using that song, I couldn't remember where. I'll check out the Courage song.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 10:16:40 am EST from 205.188.117.68

Sorry again if I interrupt a discussion. Just here to make anoter short announcement :-)
First of all thanks to those of you who supported our european Garg-Calendar project by buying one! And secondly: We've got ourselfs an own homepage now where all the calendar-art is showed as well as information are given on our project. If you are interested in this fan project, just take a glimpse :D

http://www.bleak-life.de/GargoylesCalendar
Aranesh - [Aranesh at bleak-life dot de]
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 6:01:37 am EST from 90.128.72.24

For those who might be interested, Toon Disney is currently playing Gargs. eps. from the Avalon World Tour at 4:30 A.M. every morning (including weekends). They're up to Sanctuary tonight (tomorrow morning), I believe. Just thought I'd throw that out there, in case anyone wants to tape the episodes that have not yet been released on DVD. I'm replacing my crummy old tapes that have far too many episodes on them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 18, 2007 12:28:59 am EST from 71.226.160.29

Well, there's always the default topic of Demona's cup-size
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 11:51:41 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

*eats the sign and hunts*
Jinx, the bearded dragon
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 11:50:48 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

*Chirp... Only the original cricket can do the chirp. I invented it.... chirp...*

*Plants "No Bearded Dragons Allowed" sign in the ground and hops out.*
Cricket
*chirp... chirp...*
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 11:47:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I made a video about G/D to Everybody's Fool :D

And also another song for all the gargoyles

Courage by Man O'War....trust me on this, check it out.
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 11:20:36 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Well, since the comment room appears to have died, here's a topic that might be fun..based on a question that greg answered a few days ago about a song that fits Demona ("White Flag" seriously?)

So let's think of some theme songs that would fit with the characters

Ok, I got a few:

Goliath/Elisa:
For the longest time-Billy joel
hanging by a moment- lifehouse
I can't fight this feeling-Chicago
I'll see it through-Texas(there used to be a really good amv with this song, but I can't find it anymore)

Goliath/Demona
I survived You-clay aiken (I'm not really a clay aiken fan, but when I first heard this song the lyrics creeped me out in how closely this related to them)
Break me Shake me-Savage Garden
Demona:
Consider this-Anna Nalick
Everybody's fool-Evanescense

all gargs:
Gargoyles over copenhagen-neckromantix (heh)

Yup showing my true geekiness here-looking through my ipod heh
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 11:13:11 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I know a bearded dragon of mine that would eat that cricket :P
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 10:48:44 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

dang, someone made the chirp sounds before i could.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 10:37:07 pm EST from 69.231.230.90

chirp.............. chirp............
Cricket
*chirp... chirp...*
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 9:04:35 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Harvester> Maybe Xanatos took Owen/Puck to a party and the guy ended up having a few? :P
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 1:29:08 pm EST from 69.95.31.70

Asatira: He did seem impressed that Xanatos had chosen Owen, when he could have had anything. Though I wonder how he tiptoed around that. I would think that revealing oneself to a mortal and offering them a wish would be directly interfering.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll salute the New Age, and I hope nobody escapes." -The only band that really matters.
posted @ Sat, Feb 17, 2007 8:16:21 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Patrick: Funny!

Phoenician: I think he was reluctant to return because I got the impression the Gathering was an extended affair, verging on a permanent (to a degree), recall of Oberon's Children. Even if it wasn't permanent, it was going to be for a while, and I don't think Puck wanted to miss the fun going on outside of Avalon. And a part of him probably respected the agreement to Xanatos for Owen's service, I'm sure.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 11:38:33 pm EST from 66.168.253.117

I don't get it, either. How could Puck NOT want to go to The Gathering? ;)

126 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 10:23:11 pm EST from 65.43.179.142

Todd:

"I find myself wondering whether much of the public hostility towards gargoyles in the wake of "Hunter's Moon" may be not just the tendency that so many humans have to assume that if something has batlike wings, claws, and fangs, it's got to be evil and hostile, but also that, after all the weird events going on (not just everyone falling asleep here, but also the missing nights from "City of Stone", the werefox on the loose in "Eye of the Beholder", and everything else), people are getting on edge and looking for a scapegoat to blame all the strange events on."

I beleive this something like this too -- I mean, within DAYS after the Manhatten Clan awoke in 1994, The Eyrie Building rained stone all over, Air Fortress I crashes into the bay, and a HUGE chunk of the Eyrie Building falls AGAIN. I mean, it was like two/three days, but hey THAT had to get them wondering. Not to mention as the days went by, Liberty and Ellis Island were scared by Laser Burns and broken Steel Clan bots and by Winter that year they even had that little public Coldstone fiasco in front of like EVERYONE (Seriosuly, HOW PUBLIC was that showoff between Demona and Goliath?? "I LIVED FOR MY CLAN!!!" / "AND THEY DIED FOR YOU!!!").

"Owen seemed very matter-of-fact about getting a stone hand, just staring at it at the end."

He's pretty matter-of-fact about everything, but I think I understand your point . . . kinda.

Now, one thing I was never sure of was this: Do we know how long the Gathering lasts?? I mean, it was long enough to make Puck not WANT to go, but seriously are we sure how long (and yes, I'm aware of the Avalon/Earth time issue)??
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 8:39:59 pm EST from 157.242.222.104

BATTLE BEAST - What I meant was more the comments about how Owen seemed very matter-of-fact about getting a stone hand, just staring at it at the end.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 8:17:44 pm EST from 4.244.211.237

It isn't too often that anyone gets to actually say this, but since I'm in St. John's for a couple of days...

I am on Avalon, and it does bloody well snow here, no matter what anyone says. So there.
Whitbourne
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 6:51:34 pm EST from 142.163.201.29

I still wonder why he was so bothered that Titania and Oberon re-married. He already knew the Gathering was coming and he was required to attend.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 6:20:24 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

TODD> <<I was too busy focusing on Owen's hand turning to stone at the end of "The Price" that I didn't notice his response to it>>

What was his reaction to it? Him smacking his hand on the cauldron?

Sorry IF I'm ignorant, but I don't understand how this may have led people to belive he was Puck. I get all the other hints you mentioned.

OWEN/PUCK> I remember seeing this episode for the first time. When he goes "Heeeeeres Puck!" (Which to me is still a very cheesy line) right before the commercial break, I clearly remember my mouth dropping to the floor.

I was too young I think to really pick up on the hints that he was one in the same.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 6:02:38 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Actually, I've seen "Future Tense" on Toon Disney several times. They leave in all the death.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Your psychotronic profile indicates high levels of destructive impulse, which may be why I find you so much fun to keep around. My own psychotronic profile is, well, never mind about that now..." -Durandal
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 5:42:55 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Matt> Yeah, and Goliath rushing off to meet with Elisa in 'Awakening, Part IV' probably didn't help much.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 5:06:22 pm EST from 69.95.29.2

KingCobra> I think a human sacrificing him/herself for a gargoyle would impact Demona a lot more than the other way around. She sees gargoyles saving human lives all the time, but seeing a human give up their life to save a gargoyle would shake her core beliefs. That is one of the reasons (among many probably) that she hates Elisa so much. Elisa represents the antithesis of Demona's entire "religion".
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 8:37:10 am EST from 24.207.163.239

A few comments on "The Gathering".

One part at the beginning that took me by surprise was Odin being one of Oberon's followers; one so customarily thinks of Odin as the top of the chain of command in Norse mythology that it's odd to see him taking orders from someone else.

One of the most embarrassing moments in my history of watching "Gargoyles" is that I missed almost all of the hints about Owen and Puck being really the same person. Demona's line to Puck in "The Mirror" of "You serve the human; you can serve me" went past me. I did register Demona's line to Owen in "City of Stone Part One" of "You're the tricky one", but I thought that she was simply describing Owen as clever. I was too busy focusing on Owen's hand turning to stone at the end of "The Price" that I didn't notice his response to it, and didn't get the significance of his recognizing what it meant when Anastasia had remarried her first husband. In fact, it wasn't until Owen announced that he was leaving the Eyrie Building before Oberon returned because it was too dangerous for him to get involved that I began to suspect that he might be Puck.

In thinking about the damage that would have logically followed Oberon putting all the humans to sleep, I find myself wondering whether much of the public hostility towards gargoyles in the wake of "Hunter's Moon" may be not just the tendency that so many humans have to assume that if something has batlike wings, claws, and fangs, it's got to be evil and hostile, but also that, after all the weird events going on (not just everyone falling asleep here, but also the missing nights from "City of Stone", the werefox on the loose in "Eye of the Beholder", and everything else), people are getting on edge and looking for a scapegoat to blame all the strange events on.

One of my favorite moments in this two-parter is the moment where Puck comments about Xanatos choosing Owen over Puck; listen to the way that Brent Spiner delivers that line. He gives it a tone of pleasant surprise, as though Puck was delighted and intrigued by the fact that Xanatos was more interested in Owen's mundane efficiency than in Puck's magic - something that Puck must not have encountered very often!

And Puck, after teaching Goliath in "Future Tense" to be careful what he wishes for, gets a taste of it himself. He wanted to stay in the outside world a while longer rather than to return to Avalon for the Gathering; Oberon grants him that wish, but in the form of permanent exile. (As I said before, I wonder if part of Goliath's recommending Puck as Alex's tutor came from a desire for a little payback over that nightmare.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 8:04:43 am EST from 4.244.209.134

Broadway was shot in the back with a laser and died in Goliath's arms saying something to the effect of "I see the sun, it's beautiful."
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 7:31:26 am EST from 68.202.76.113

This may seem like an odd question, but how did Broadway die in "Future Tense"? The entire scene was cut when the episode was broadcast here. It wasn't even stated that he had died, he just merely disappeared and wasn't mentioned again. The death's of Matt, Bronx and Claw were also edited out, although Lexington stating that they were "gone" made it clear what happend.
Mr X.
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 7:21:00 am EST from 202.154.137.65

Greg B.> I could personally see something HUGE (for example, a gargoyle sacrificing himself/herself to save a human) happening in Demona's future that would cause her to question her motives.

Unfortunately, as you know, it's pretty much common knowledge that A) Angela will NOT be Demona's redemption (though I used to think that she would be), and B) it won't happen until 2198.

Hmmm... I'm now wondering if it may have something to do with Timedancing Brooklyn in some way? Just a theory. Small, possibly implausible theory, but still a theory.

Then again, it could just be me grasping at straws that don't exist.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 6:29:19 am EST from 69.95.196.49

"Energy is Energy, whether by Science or Sorcery" - That line has always intrigued me with all the possibilities it opens. For example, could a trained spellcaster tap into the electricity in electrical lines as a power source for casting a spell?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Feb 16, 2007 5:07:08 am EST from 162.40.58.81

I have yet to continue the next 26 episodes of season 2...And I am unable to at the moment..Sad me.. very sad... >o<
elisa - [kfioidio at ifg dot comm]
yipeeee!!!!! >o<
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 9:55:18 pm EST from 75.72.181.189

Vaevictis: When I first saw the Gathering, I LOVED Oberon fighting the Eyrie Building. In fact, my excitement had hit an all-time high when I saw that Owen could actually create a force-field that could block science and sorcery (loved Owen's line: Energy is Energy, whether by Science or Sorcery). But that scene remains epic in mind: Not since City of Stone had we saw Goliath and his Clan and Xanatos & Co. willingly fight together.

And I doubt you can imagine my boyish shock to see Oberon figure out how to go underground -- but I guess not even Owen/Puck can outwit Oberon.

I too loved Puck's visual presentation - not to mention him breaking the fourth wall.

On Demona - Her path to redemption is seriously going to take a long time to take, and given the chance to have 2198 in some form one day, I doubt it would even occur in the first few years. Something tells me its going to happen towards the VERY end.

Her betrayal basically started this epic . . . only seems fitting for her Redemption to end it.

I also like the idea of Macbeth returning too . . .
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 8:24:57 pm EST from 157.242.221.130

On the comic being Black and White:

Manga is almost always black and white, and it is very, very popular these days. I think the rise of Manga has helped North American audiences change the way they think about comics. I remember the early 90s when "if it wasn't colour it was no good."

They can do some very nice things with tones and grayscale to give the images depth and convey an effect much like colour. Manga is also cheaper to produce because you don't have the expenses associated with colour. A manga book, at 200 pages, runs about $12 CDN--I can imagine the price being more like $20 if it were in full colour. That's a lot of comic for your buck considering that a 32-page North American=style pamphlet comic book is about $4-5.

That being said, I think Gargoyles issue 2 is beautifully coloured, very vibrant and mood-enhancing. However, if they were to choose to produce Gargoyles stories in a manga-style B&W, I wouldn't think any less of it.
Stormy
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 8:13:08 pm EST from 142.167.195.217

Demona's entire 2198 bio:

"DEMONA - For over a thousand years, Demona has plotted against humanity, blaming them for crimes against the gargoyle race. Now that a greater threat, the Space-Spawn, has reared it's many ugly heads, Demona has reluctantly joined Samson's resistance cell. But no one, including Demona herself, is fully confident that she'll continue to fight on the side of the angels. This may be her last chance at redemption... or her final opportunity to annihilate the human race. Still, Samson felt it necessary to actively recruit her. It's hard to pass up the help of a warrior who's survived a millennium's worth of battles, a sorceress who knows how to combine ancient magic with modern technology. And then there's that bit about her turning into a human during the day. The only question is how she will use her talents. For now, she's siding with the resistance. But can that last?"

I think most of what we're talking about is in there.

KING COBRA> Somehow I doubt anyone is going to turn Demona around, Demona needs to turn herself around. No one else can do it for her. One of my problems with fanfic portrayal of Demona is that it's always someone else who does it... be is Angela, or she falls in love with someone who gets her to realise humans are not all bad. The latter completely missing the point about why she hates humans to begin with.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:46:21 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: My own theories on that are that the Spawn represent as big a threat to gargoyles as they do to humans. But perhaps more prevalent than that (since this is Demona we're talking about) is that if the Spawn have their way, they'll steal Demona's opportunity for revenge.

Something I have been wondering, concerning her redemption. I've thought about what her reaction might be when she finds out about Goliath's sacrifice. Probably something along the lines of "serves him right" or "he threw his life away." But I also wonder if there might also be some grief there as well, since I think that waaaaay back in her mind, she still felt something for him. Of course, she successfully denies any grief she might feel (because she is a master of denial). Basically, what I'm pondering is if something happens in 2198 that makes her recall the sacrifice, and perhaps see it in a different light.

And then there's my more radical theory, which is that pudding has something to do with her redemption. Because pudding rocks.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Your psychotronic profile indicates high levels of destructive impulse, which may be why I find you so much fun to keep around. My own psychotronic profile is, well, never mind about that now..." -Durandal
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:42:59 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Gee, I'm getting to be something of a regular commeter again.

KingCobra> I guess they just never seemed quite as solid as the designs of the main human characters in the show. Of course that does make sense, since the character designers aren't going to put as much work into designs that only appear in one episode. But they just didn't seem as appealing to me as the gargoyle designs (both the clan and the Manhattanites turned gargoyles).

Matt> I'm guessing Demona allies with the resistance for much the same reasons that Xanatos and the Manhattan clan form a temporary alliance in "City of Stone". The space-spawn represent a threat to the whole planet; and remember, they do have an entire generation of gargoyle eggs from all the world's clans held hostage. It usually takes a major threat that is harmful to both parties for longtime enemies to fight for a common cause. Demona probably sees the space-spawn as a threat to gargoylekind and, much as she may detest working alongside humans, she needs to confront that threat. She's convinced herself that she does what she does for the good of her species, not because she hates humans.

Greg B> Meant to say before that I dropped an e-mail to Newsarama suggesting that they do a piece on "Gargoyles". I mentioned that issue #3 will be the first totally new content as kind of an explanation for why it's a great idea for them to cover a comic on its third issue.
Demonskrye
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:26:09 pm EST from 209.6.251.177

So here are my thoughts, finally, on The Gathering. Things I liked:

*The entire reunion scene, but especially Hudson: "We're not the last. We're not alone." :)
*Banshee's tranformation into the worm was well-done
*Fox: Mother, who is this guy?
*Goliath to Xanatos: What??
*The statues coming to life, especially the stone lion which looked really cool
*Oberon's Jedi mind trick
*Xanatos asks Oberon "Who are you?" and he just ignores him. Very typical.
*attack visual aids
*Anubis doesn't even open his mouth to laugh.
*The jogger guy and Oberon
*The moment between Elisa and Goliath was sad
*Renard is still a great character

And what I didn't like:
*Oberon's magic should not be able to affect iron robots nor Hudson's Viking sword. Steel alloy guns should probably be ruled out too.
*A scene where Oberon appeared to be humping the Eyrie building.

I also spotted a blooper: In the television scene in the clock tower, Lexington suddenly has extra bones in his wings.

Overall, what I notice first is that Oberon, besides disobeying his own laws (attacking the gargoyles, interfering by putting an entire city to sleep), also changes his mind. First he says that Titania can come and go as she pleases, then he asks her what she's up to with mortals and tells her to leave Earth. First he seems indifferent to Alexander, telling Titania she can do whatever. Then suddenly he becomes very interested and goes after Alexander himself, and even forgets Puck entirely.
I also notice that he could sense Titania's presence, but didn't recognize Owen. I wonder why.

The godzilla fight scene was probably the most rediculous moment in the series so far, moreso than the Mirror, but I didn't mind. I liked the gargoyles flying around his head like small insects.

I do wonder why Owen was so bothered by Titania marrying Oberon again. He already knew the Gathering was happening and Oberon would want him back, and he already figured Titania was after Alex. So why did he act like her marriage was so surprising and scary?

Oberon is just as nasty and unpleasant as before, and so arrogant whe he does cruel things and then says "But I am not heartless." but I don't really feel sorry for Puck. He's been too much of a jerk himself.
Titania showed her true colors in this episode, anyway. She is just as willing as Oberon to hurt people on a whim. The whole premise reminds me of the concept of changelings, where the fae steal a mortal baby from its parents and take it under their mounds to be a slave. Although... why did she go to the clock tower?

And then Oberon dismisses all the havoc he caused as something the mortals will hardly remember. I doubt they'll call it only a dream, though, what with the crashed cars, smashed robots, missing statues, crashed Fortress, and the giant footprints in the pavement.

I didn't think any of this episode was mushy, except the last line Goliath says to Xanatos. Goliath is often forgiving like that, but expecting Xanatos might reform? Saving Alex was certainly the right thing to do, but I can't see being so open toward Xanatos after the things he's done. Maybe I'm a harsh judge. I think I'm generally inclined to give people a second chance (except for the worst things like torturers or serial rapists) but only after I see honest, genuine remorse. And from Xanatos, despite his humanizing traits, I've seen not a hint.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:06:11 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Demonskrye> I agree with you on all points in regards to your aforementioned episodes, but I do have 2 comments.

1. What's so bad about the Clan's human forms? Except for Brooklyn, they looked just like their VAs, IMO. I do have to admit however that it's odd, having Lex and Broadway go from bald to suddenly having a full head of hair.

2. 'Kingdom' is on my list along with the eps you mentioned. It brings a resolve to the Brooklyn/Maggie conflict, gives Brooklyn (who, as anyone who knows me knows, is my favorite character along with Lex) a step up in character development and more importance storyline-wise, and is just great all around.

Lex and Broadway flying around and doing acrobatics like that (in the Labyrinth) is pretty cool to watch, as well, IMHO.

2198> I'm frankly not as interested in Demona acheivig redemption so much as in HOW she does it. Does she meet someone who completely turns around her stance on the human race? Or will something relevent and perhaps tragic take place that will reform her? Perhaps both? Only Greg W., at the moment, knows for sure.

And unfortunately for us, I don't see him spilling the beans until when/if 2198 becomes a comic/series.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 6:20:00 pm EST from 69.95.29.78

I wonder why Demona will even join the resistance at all.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 6:14:28 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

2198 Demona> This is what we do know.

1. Demona is still plotting against humanity as 2198 starts. She becomes an uneasy member of the Resistance and initially gets along with no one. The pitch says:

"Demona has reluctantly joined Samson's resistance cell. But no one, including Demona herself, is fully confident that she'll continue to fight on the side of the angels. This may be her last chance at redemption... or her final opportunity to annihilate the human race."

2. Greg says that Demona does one day have an epiphany. Considering that her entire war against humanity is about her refusing to take responsibility for all the damn choices she's ever made, the only way she'll give up her war with humanity, to give up her hate, is by acknowledging her responsibility.

Based on the premise, Demona cannot have reformed before 2198.

Plus, it makes her story all the more tragic if she and Angela never have a normal mother/daughter relationship.

While Xanatos is still definitely a schemer, and a ruthless businessman, the birth of Alex did soften him. It would be redundant to do the same thing with Demona because Angela is now in her life. Greg is a better writer than that.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 5:22:10 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Yeah, I don't really remember Greg W saying that she was absolutly going to reform sometime in the 2198 spinoff. I've heard him say she would be an ally for the good guys in the conflict and that it perhaps would be her last chance to reform, but I don't remember it ever being stated directly that she would find her redemption for certain in the spinoff (or anywhere else for that matter), though it does seem likely.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 5:10:12 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Battle Beast> Glad to be of assitance. I'm excited about the new issue, but I've yet to lose sleep anticipating its arrival. I think that's propbably a good sign that you're too excited.

KingCobra> Well since you asked, I like all of the multiparters. I don't like comparing them with the single episodes since you just can't pack as much story into one episode, good s it may be. I guess my favorites there would be "City of Stone" and "The Gathering", though it's only by tiny degrees. For single episodes, I like "Eye of the Beholder" (for Halloween fun, a well designed werefox, and some Xanatos character development), "The Mirror" (though I'm still not crazy about the clan's human designs, there's just tons going on in this episode and yet it still all makes sense), "Future Tense" (gotta love those distopian future nightmare episodes, especially when they end in a way that doesn't feel like a cheat), and "Possession" (for bringing bck the Coldtrio storyline and starting to suggest both how Puck's teaching of Alex would work and Lex's fondness for baby Alex. I kind of wish Broadway and Angela had been a little further along in their relationship at that point though, so people couldn't argue that the only reason Angela chose Broadway was because of their possession by Othello and Desdemona). My least favorite episodes are "Protection" and "Vendettas".

Demona 2198> Maybe I've missed something, but did Greg W ever say that Demona permanently reformed in 2198 and never ever ever did anything objectionable again? I would doubt that an immortal character can ever have an "end" to her story (barring the spell being undone or something like a mututal suicide agreement with MacBeth). The only thing I remember hearing about Demona's loyalties in 2198 is something like "she's on the side of the angels, for now". And that may well only cover some of the events of 2198. Who knows what she'll do when the immediate threat of the space-spawn ends. With a complex character like Demona, it's probably an oversimplification to say she will completely reform and never look back.
Demonskrye
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 4:55:41 pm EST from 209.6.251.177

Vash - just sent you an email.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 2:39:29 pm EST from 162.40.58.81

Matt> I was thinking about that Demona/Paris question a long time ago, and asked Greg (indirectly, of course, or the question would have been banned). He didn't really give anything away, but I linked his answer to my name.

Ok, I'm finally in the process of getting GNC back up. It has a new, easier-to-remember url: http://www.gargoyles-news.org/ The same old page from last year is up, I still need to update it, but at least its there.

Also, remember that I'm recruiting help for the Team Atlantis/Gargoyles crossover episode video. We've got most of the outline covered by loyal fans, but there's still plenty to do, so drop me a line if you have any time/interest in helping out.
Vashkoda - [my name goes here at gmail dot com]
D2 <Can I have it?>
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 12:54:35 pm EST from 129.98.125.105

VA> *shrugs* Maybe we'll get lucky and the comic will sell well enough for 2198 to have its' own run.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 12:20:16 pm EST from 69.95.29.15

I do wish Greg W. had not told is specifically when Demona reforms.
I'm not very interested in 2198. Sci-fi and superhero-type stuff doesn't interest me nearly as much as the fantasy elements and the exploration of mythological and legendary characters and stories. I admit, I'm only interested in 2198 because Greg said it would include the exploration of and information about all 12 clans, and I want to know more about them -- what they look like, what they protect, what their cultures are like.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 12:02:28 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VA> Yeah, you're right. It was.

I just dislike when books/TV Shows/movies kill off characters that I grow attached to. I can see why they would do it (for shock value and/or to move the story along, or if they're just plain disposable), but it's not fun.

Oh, well, that stuff's fictional, anyways.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 11:27:36 am EST from 69.95.29.15

But KingCobra you've got to admit, their survival up until the end was extremely improbable.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 11:12:14 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Jurgan> I used to read those books, even collect them. I was just such a fanboy. Volums 20-22 were on my favorites list though.

"the series pulled it out and delivered an amazing ending."

That is true, it did. But I hated it when...

< SPOILER ALERT FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T READ THEM>

...they killed Rachel. I liked her.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 10:39:24 am EST from 69.95.29.15

Wow. I completely missed the discussion over the comic's fate. Teach me to put work over the Internet. :P

I admit that I feel a little paranoid over the comic, too. It's a consequence of how many times Gargoyles has been shafted in the past. It's an amazing series (as we all know), and it's a pity that it hasn't gotten more attention for its current revival (and for the DVDs).

But I know what to do. It's just a matter of making the e-mail sound right.

...I like the idea of 2198. And of Demona changing and redeeming herself. She's not taken her opportunities yet, but she could. I like the anti-heroic, stubborn, tragic fashion that she's been created in, but it would be even better with an arc of growth, a payoff if you will. And I want it told in full, not a quick-fix solution. Maybe some false starts.

I admit, I never thought about her joining a new clan, but it makes a lot of sense.

GregB> "Destined for" Macbeth? In what sense do you mean that? I know that my mind jumps to something romantic (not that I want it to), but you probably have something different in mind.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 10:17:57 am EST from 142.13.22.51

Samuel: Lexington dressing as a cyborg would be cool, and rather creepy, but I think it's rather unlikely that Goliath told the clan much about his vision. He obviously had to tell Angela and Elisa something, but it was probably just "Puck made me have a nightmare to try to steal the Phoenix Gate." He'd likely tell them that he couldn't remember the details, because he was just too rattled by it, especially Puck's suggestion that it may have been a prophecy.

"The challenge of a series where the antagonists win 75% of the time is that, usually in adventure cartoons, the antagonists' goal is something which, if achieved, would automatically end the series (getting rid of the protagonists, taking over the world, etc.)."

The Animorphs books managed this by making the aliens' long-term goal the conquest of the Earth, yet it was possible for the heroes to slow down the invasion. Early on, it was seen as merely a delaying action until help from another alien species could arrive. Also, the heroes were the proactive ones- they'd come up with their own plans to attack, and if they failed, the situation was no worse off than when they started. When they did react to one of the aliens' plans, it often was a minor part of their overall strategy, and so stopping them was a hindrance but did not end the threat altogether. Actually, the series started to slump in the middle when it did get to the point that every threat seemed like it would end the world immediately, so you knew the heroes would win, but the series pulled it out and delivered an amazing ending.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 9:37:18 am EST from 71.226.160.29

Hardwing> No offense to your idea, but if I saw that happen with Demona I'd feel very let down and dissapointed. It would seem, in my opinion, to be very anticlimatic for this ancient character to be humbled by something so silly as alien brain-wipe technology.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 9:01:58 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Just a thought from someone who watches this discussion from the border.

I would bet my money on Nokkar's mind cleaning technology. After all it seems probable that the Space Spawn will try to use the mind controle technique Nokkar described in "Sentinel" and so why not use it on Demona? After all, given Demona's fame and personality I think the resistance would have great problems to truly believe she is innocent of a possible betrayal, so Nokkar's technology seems the best way to find out.

Once used Demona would have big problems to rationalize her deeds of her past life once she remembers them again, thus preventing her of the denial we have all too clear seen by her before.
Hardwing - [hardwing at web dot de]
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:17:11 am EST from 85.181.185.134

I'd have to say that for me, the more intriguing thing is also how it happens. A thousand years is a very long time, and in all that time, Demona has probably had nothing but herself, her hatred, and her denial. That sort of thing doesn't dry up overnight. So honestly, I don't think there's much that Angela will be able to do for her.

So at this point, for me the intriguing thing is also not really knowing that there will be an epiphany in 2198, but rather wondering just what sort of cause is attached to the effect. The Gargoyles universe is very big on cause and effect.

Oh, and by the way: today is the anniversary. Anyone care to engage in some mindless destruction? ( ; (By the way, I hated quoting myself, but I needed something that sums up my feelings for the Goliath Chronicles).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Honestly, the only villain I've ever seen that was more pointless than the Assassin was the character of Nute Gunray from the Star Wars prequels. No, wait. The Assassin was more pointless than Gunray. Wow, that means even George Lucas can thumb down his nose at "The Goliath Chronicles," if he wants to."
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 7:01:20 am EST from 71.62.204.109

The notion of Demona and Macbeth as an item is one of those things that I've never considered that likely, but then, they've got at least another couple of hundred years before them and a lot can change during that time. (I'm still certain, though, that Macbeth quickly got a divorce or annulment after the events of "Sanctuary".)

The challenge of a series where the antagonists win 75% of the time is that, usually in adventure cartoons, the antagonists' goal is something which, if achieved, would automatically end the series (getting rid of the protagonists, taking over the world, etc.). You'd have to have antagonists whose objectives would have less drastic results if attained (Xanatos does fit that one, since his real purpose in going after the gargoyles wasn't to capture or kill them, but to do other things, such as testing out new weaponry or to make certain that he wasn't getting soft).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 6:44:06 am EST from 4.244.211.115

Hello, all. I hope everyone had a nice Valentine's day.

Comic> Thus far I'm not too concerned about its cancellation. I think there's a lot of potential that will soon be tapped.

Newsarama Email> After this I will email matt@newsarama.com and express my enthusiasm for the comic. :) Greg B is a clever beastie.

Costumes> I think it might be funny if Lexington dressed up as a cyborg. Although it seems unlikely, as I'm sure Goliath shared with the clan Puck's illusion.

2198> I actually don't like the idea of 2198 at all. I'm just not a big fan of aliens and future dystopias and all that jazz. I'm not sure how I feel about Demona and Brooklyn's involvement therein.

That leads me to TimeDancer. Despite my reservations against time travel, I really like the idea of it. I'm reluctant to eagerness about traveling to the future, because it shouldn't be "fixed" according to my personal philosophies.

Exposing Towson students to Gargoyles> I mentioned this last week. Originally, I was eager to find that one friend is a fan, but I've discovered several more. I just thought I'd share that with people here. Maybe that'll help lighten the board.

Boy, this is probably the longest post I've ever written.

Comic, again> I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Labyrinth Clan develops. There's so much that can be done there, and we don't know anything except that there's going to be one known member in the future. I'm also eager to see how the Gargoyle Nation might start forming. After all, there are a few clans that now know about one another... Maybe some connections'll start happening.

That, in turn, leads me to wonder about Sir Griff. He's a gargoyle, but he's a traveling one. How must he feel, I wonder. I mean, gargoyles are so connected with their protectorates, and they have such a need for kinship.

:)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
"What sorcery is this?"
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 1:24:19 am EST from 68.34.86.35

Demonskrye> YES, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT. THANK YOU!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 12:34:58 am EST from 142.59.179.178

"As of this moment, slightly over 50% of the questions in the backlog at Ask Greg were submitted by 1 person: Makhasu . This person submitted 72 questions. (If this doesn't make the case for a limit on maximum number of questions any person can submit in 1 day, I don't what will)."

Makhasu was posting here when he submitted the questions, and a lot of people were upset with him. However, I think it was somewhat mitigated by the fact that he'd been collecting those questions for a long time, rather than simply sending them on the spur of the moment, and he checked the archives for the answers before submitting them.

"Actually, there's a part of me that would honestly like to see a show where at least for the 1st season, the bad guys obtain victory 75% of the time over the good guys."

I can think of one example, though it's not a TV show. You probably can't still find these reliably, but the Animorphs book series was a good example. The heroes were up against an almost invincible alien invasion, and for the first couple of arcs most of their attempts at striking back failed miserably, and they just barely escaped with their lives.

"Jurgan> I disagree. The journey itself is more important than the destination.

It's like "why do you watch something if you know the good guys will win?" I watch to see how they win... Honestly, I love the 2198 pitch, and I love Demona's involvement. I admit I'd be far less interested if she wasn't in it."

Well, that's why I said "part of me." I like the idea of 2198. However, I don't like how every time someone asks "do you think Demona will ever reform," the answer automatically comes back: "Not until 2198." It seems like there's no hope for her, at least not in the short term. On the other hand, it's possible that Demona attempts to reform in the near future and keeps to the straight-and-narrow, but eventually returns to her old ways. For example, maybe Demona will try to put aside her wrath for Angela's sake (not tomorrow, mind you- it could be twenty years from now), but after Angela's death, she returns to her malicious ways. That's a simplification, of course, but something like that could happen. I guess more what bothers me is the assumptions being made about what will happen in the near future based on what will happen in 2198. Greg deliberately moved it back from 2158 to 2198 in order to reduce the links with the present so as not to give away what's going to happen in the main series.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 15, 2007 12:02:18 am EST from 71.226.160.29

DPH> That was an example. Not a rule.

Honestly, I love the 2198 pitch, and I love Demona's involvement. I admit I'd be far less interested if she wasn't in it.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 11:36:19 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Right now, Ask Greg is down to 140 questions. As of this moment, slightly over 50% of the questions in the backlog at Ask Greg were submitted by 1 person: Makhasu . This person submitted 72 questions. (If this doesn't make the case for a limit on maximum number of questions any person can submit in 1 day, I don't what will). In fact that guy's 1st question is 13 questions away.

GXB - <It's like "why do you watch something if you know the good guys will win?" I watch to see how they win.> Actually, there's a part of me that would honestly like to see a show where at least for the 1st season, the bad guys obtain victory 75% of the time over the good guys.

Jurgan - <It sort of ruins the drama of Demona if we already know how it all ends.> But we don't how the drama with Demona ends until we see her die. Besides that, sometimes the journy is more important that the destination.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 11:29:58 pm EST from 162.40.58.81

Jurgan> I disagree. The journey itself is more important than the destination.

It's like "why do you watch something if you know the good guys will win?" I watch to see how they win.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 11:04:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Honestly, part of me wishes that there were no 2198, or at least that Demona were somehow taken out of it. It sort of ruins the drama of Demona if we already know how it all ends.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 11:01:12 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

This brings up the whole question of how much Demona knows. What clans is she aware of past, present and future? What kind of contact (if any) has she had with other gargoyles over the centuries?

I tend to agree with Greg B, I really doubt Demona joined any clans after her's was destroyed in 1057. She certainly didn't find any clans in Scotland, and the fact that she is so lonely today leads me to believe that she has been clan-less for a very long time. It's hard to say what happened with her during all those centuries outside of what little we know.

My point, however, is that I doubt Demona would find herself able to join a clan until she has redeemed herself. Right now, I think she has subconciously banned herself from any clan. Almost a self-exile.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 10:21:11 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis> Keep in mind that the Demona of 2198 and beyond will probably be different than the Demona of 1994-96. We'll see what happens, but Greg does plan for Demona to find redemption in the 2198 spin-off.

Demon@> I don't think Demona belonged to any clan between 1057 and 1994. I'm sorry, but I don't.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 9:37:26 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Or perhaps she already had a clan there. A clan that probably was destroyed.
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 9:04:34 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Hi guys, happy Valentines Day. I don't have time to review The Gathering today but I have a few comments.

First of all, Kaylle: Wow, you have made a very gracious and generous offer and I thank you. I do think it is not necessary yet for me to get outside help, though. As long as #3 becomes available on Amazon eventually, I'll be able to get it. The delay delayed by several months my buying #2, but I'll still be able to.

The comic: I also posted my comments in response to Vado's pessimistic blog saying Gargoyles wasn't making enough to be worth the effort. His response to Greg B. is more heartening. I'll be sad if the comic becomes black and white, but I think I'd still prefer a black and white comic to a color cartoon. The first two seasons were great, but S&P these days is far more strict and puritanical, and the show would probably be seriously reduced if it returned to TV. Plus that great animation studio in Japan is gone now.

Demona in Paris -- Matt, your theory is interesting, but it sounds a bit far-fetched to me. I guess I'll believe Demona's redemption when I see it.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 8:47:07 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Yeah, I really think it is only fitting that Demona would end up part of a Clan. She has had too much of a bad history with the Manhattan Clan for me to see her wanting to join them, and the recolonized Wyvern Clan is located in a place that probably holds too many old ghosts for her. The Notre Dame Clan is the only Clan where I think she could really fit in... although that could simply be because we don't know much about it yet. But the fact that it is formed after the end of the Space-Spawn occupation (not to mention the end of Greg W's timeline) makes me think that it is the perfect Clan for Demona to join.

I just want Demona to become part of Clan again some day. Not an ally, a member.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 8:20:34 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

MATT> That there is an interesting theory, and one that I never once thought of. Leading a clan, or even just being part of one would be a good ending for a redeemed Demona. She would no longer be alone.

Don't know if I'm ready to subscribe to it, but as far as theories and speculation goes, it's definitely a good one.

As for Demona having a connection to Paris, I honestly never saw it. Demona originally came to Paris to find the Praying Gargoyle, it was destroyed so she returned to fetch it sixy years later after it reformed. Avalon sent her and Macbeth to Paris because, well, Thailog was there.

Of course, there are seldom coincidences in "Gargoyles".

I always thought (and still do think) that Demona and Macbeth were destined for each other, but my theory and yours are not mutually exclusive. Macbeth was once a great friend to a clan of gargoyles, and who knows, he could be again. It would bring both him and Demona full circle as well.

A shame Angela won't live to see Demona find redemption.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 7:43:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

So, I had a thought about Demona the other night. I'm particularly interested to hear Greg B's reaction to this one. It occured to me that of all the clans, the Notre Dame Clan is the one we know the least about. We know it is the 14th Clan to join the Gargoyle Nation, we know that France made a bid for a new clan and gargoyles settled in at the Cathedral in Paris, but thats about it.

I couldn't help but think that perhaps the reason Greg W has been so quiet about the Notre Dame Clan is that he is trying to keep Demona's future a secret. Think about it this way, we know Demona has had a lot of action in Paris and given the series' tendency for foreshadowing, hearing Demona talk about Paris being "her's" could indicate that at some point Demona will indeed be a part of a clan there. I can't help but wonder if Demona's redemption will end with her becoming a part of a real clan once again, perhaps even forming it and/or leading it. Gargoyles:2198 will certainly have her learning to get past all her old issues, and perhaps it'll lead her to finally become a true gargoyle again.

I know this is all pretty wild speculation, but I thought it was a neat idea. I'd love to hear what you guys think.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 7:34:12 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Demonskrye> Now I'm curious. What are your favorite episodes?
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 7:27:28 pm EST from 69.95.28.204

I usually watch my tape of "Sanctuary" for Valentine's Day. Unfortunately, it's been so long since I last had my VCR hooked up to my television (I've switched over to DVD player now) that I'd forgotten how to get it properly hooked up (and I'd mislaid my VCR manual). At last I decided to watch a DVD episode instead (and since the episodes on DVD have much clearer pictures than my old tapes, that felt more appealing anyway).

Since "Sanctuary" was in the second half of Season Two, of course, I couldn't watch that. After some thinking it over, I decided on "Vows" since that had Goliath and Demona's vows of love (and the final part of their tragic break-up), so I had a good time watching that on DVD instead.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 7:11:44 pm EST from 4.244.210.177

Harvester - You're suggestion of what to do with a VHS copy of "Angels in the Night" (which now I wish I had -- just so I could do it) vaguely reminded me of that Macintosh 1984-spoof commercial. Just pointing that out . . .

And oh yes: Happy Valentine's Day! (It's actually my parent's 20th Anniversary today!)
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 4:28:10 pm EST from 157.242.214.141

Great Excpetations> I think the idea Battle Beast is putting forth (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, BB) is that there is a lot of expectation - years of it in fact - riding on issue #3 as the first new canon "Gargoyles" story since "The Journey". But we shouldn't let that translate into readers expecting the issue to make us feel exactly like our favorite episode of the show did. Much as we may like the show, we all have our episodes that we love and episodes that maybe we're not so fond of. And even if issue #3 is on the level of a "Future Tense" or a "Hunter's Moon Part 3" or whatever your favorite show episode is, one issue of the comic is equivalent to about half of a 30 minute show, so you're just not gonna get as much story. Get excited by all means, but keep in mind that it's just the beginning and we're not going to see everything that's coming right away.
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 2:58:23 pm EST from 209.6.251.177

Battle Beast: "I hope no one here is expecting great things from Issue #3. It'll be a slow process to great issues. We arn't going to have a new clan with eggs pop up right away."

What do you mean? We're all expecting great things from issue three. It's the first new canon material in over ten years! We've been waiting for this for a long time. It will be great, and I know I won't be disappointed.
D. Taina
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 2:33:22 pm EST from 172.145.234.127

My personal feel to the whole comic thing would be that I just want to read the stories. If it's artwork etc thats stalling it, it's too bad they cant make novels or books or something of the sort insted of comics.
Shara
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 2:28:05 pm EST from 4.246.108.234

Hey, anything to do with Gargs is Great. I'm damn happy we're getting the comic-and I'm especially looking forward to issue 3 because it's a new story.

Speaking of great-here's warped thought, how about Keith David as the new Tony the Tiger. ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 2:18:41 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

BATTLE BEAST> What do you mean by great? I'm expecting issue 3 to very good, maybe even great.

What you seem to be saying is don't expect anything huge and epic. Which does not mean great.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 1:48:30 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I hope no one here is expecting great things from Issue #3. It'll be a slow process to great issues. We arn't going to have a new clan with eggs pop up right away.

I really hate all this *as they say* Doom and Gloom. We have a Comic Comming out! New material! Can't we all be thankfull for that?!?! Give it a chance! It'll work!

Stop moping about, if you haven't bought the DVDs or Comics do so now! Email Greg B's comic thingy, and pray if you do that. Stop complaning and be thankful we are at this point!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 1:30:23 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Alex Garg - Hear, hear!
The Sadistic Cow
I believe the children are our future... unless we stop them NOW!
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 12:34:02 pm EST from 24.150.120.87

Me, I'm an optimist. I'm looking forward to stuff that I know will be coming out through August 2008. Yeah, it's not much time when you think about it, but we'll have new stories. That's what I'm happy about. I feel that things will pick up some with new material, and hopefully word of mouth will improve as well. That's all I've got.

Happy Valentine's day, folks. Hope you have a good day, and for those with special someones, show how much you care.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 10:16:15 am EST from 131.204.97.9

Comic> Just to clarify, I posted my less than optimistic comments about the comic's future before I saw Vado's response to Greg B's comment. In light of that, I'm much more hopeful about the chances for a "Gargoyles" comic continuing beyond 2008. Mind you, I'm not calling this a sure thing either. The other part of the equation is Disney and we don't know how they feel about the arrangement. That will of course come into play when the license comes up for renewal. But knowing that Vado at least wants to keep the material that get prodcued before the contract expires in print and that he thinks "Gargoyles" has potential is heartening.

I would be fine with a black and white "Gargoyles" comic if it came to that. Should a new character happen to show up, we'd probably get their color information from the cover (as it is interesting and geneticly informative to know what color a new gargoyle character is). And the clones are all different enough in design from their Manhattan clan counterparts (especially since Thailog got his armor) to be differentiated from them without color. In fact, the only Disney/SLG comic I think would have trouble transitioning to black and white is "Tron" since color plays sch a big role in identifying a character's faction.

I think it is important to differentiate between unfounded or overdramatic griping about the comic and legitimate critcisms and concerns expressed in a reasonable way. I don't think it was unreasonable for people to be worried about the post-2008 future of the comic when what we had to go on was Vado's blog post saying that the deal had not really been a success for SLG and that the rewards were not yet great enough to justify the hassles. As I said, the new information we got shortly after paints a much more hopeful picture and I've adjusted my concerns accordingly. Similarly, think it's fine for people who have issues with aspects of the comic to talk about their concerns. What's not OK is making personal attacks on the creators or demanding things on the creative and promotional fronts that can't happen (say, Greg Guler drawing the book himself or ads on the sides of buses in major cities). So far, I haven't seen very much of that. Most people here are picking up the comic, regardless of what issue they may have with it, and that's the important thing, right?

I think we have a much better opportunity to spread the word and get people to pick up the comic than we do with the DVD (not that we should give up on that front). The comic is considerably cheaper and comics generally have more potential for a gorwth in sales over time. It's not smething tha happens without work being done to get more people buying it. But with comics, you have new product coming out every so often for readers to buy, whereas DVDs are more of a one time thing that is supposed to do its best business in its first few weeks of release before being pushed aside for newer DVDs. Selling a comic has it's own challenges, but I think we do stand a chance to make a real difference in the sales.
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 10:02:04 am EST from 209.6.251.177

I'm personally curious to see what Greg Weisman thinks of this 'Gloom and Doom' stuff.

Not that I want to add fuel to the fire, or anything like that. I'm simply pondering what his stance on this topic would be, is all.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 9:42:28 am EST from 69.95.29.26

I definitely think we're being premature in saying that the comic may fail because of a few delays. On the other hand, I think Vado's comments were negative almost to the point of unprofessionalism. He should be encouraging sales, but it struck me as though he was saying the whole deal was a mistake.

The other thing that got me was that someone said that we should be grateful for the comic, and that Disney did us a huge favor by publishing it at all. It was not a favor of any sort. As Greg recently pointed out, Disney exists for one reason only: to make money. If they thought they'd lose money on this, there's no way they'd do it. That's neither a good nor a bad thing; it's just the way it is. And I don't think they'd be upset to hear us complaining, because none of us are suggesting that we won't buy it. We have every right to complain as much as we want to. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that arguing in favor of quality for its own sake will never convince Disney to do anything differently. We can try to convince Disney or SLG that they can handle the profit differently, but the only way we succeed is if we convince them that doing so will make more money. As it happens, I think that a higher quality product will make more money, so we've got that to our advantage, but we have to be careful not to sound like we're whining for them to give us stuff for free. We want a good product and they want a profit. Those goals should be mutual.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 9:36:20 am EST from 153.9.83.136

All the "doom and gloom" about the comic. The fact is, the fans have known that the first 2 issues weren't going to be new material. I'm sure there were some that didn't buy them for that reason(god only knows why - if you're a real fan, ya buy everything 0_-. Give Gargoyles a real chance with some of the new stories - then judge.

Tis my rant.
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 8:26:48 am EST from 74.105.128.170

I'd like to point out that my comment was directed, not at the troubles that the comic has been undergoing, but rather at the "gloom and doom" tone among the people here.

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! *pictures Demona opening fire at Cupid with her laser cannon. Something tells me that after her being dumped by Thailog for Delilah, Demona's going to be all the more anti-romance. Good thing that she wasn't there when Elisa kissed Goliath at the end of "Hunter's Moon" *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 8:17:23 am EST from 4.244.211.203

*walks in after sending his e-mail to newsarama*

Okay, speaking seriously for a moment:

I'm someone who likes to weigh the facts that are presented. Cautiously sometimes, because facts can be manipulated, but here I do not believe it is the case. So, these are the facts as I see them:

1. Issue #3 is done. We've seen pages from it.
2. Last I heard, Greg had written as far as #7 (that's probably changed).
3. There are artists waiting in the wings for the next several issues.
4. We've seen an early rendition of the cover of #4.
5. From what I'm gathering, Vado didn't say the contract would not be renewed.

Is there any danger? Doesn't sound like it to me. I know this is coming a little late, but I just wanted to lay things out as I see them.

On a new topic, I just realized that tomorrow (02/15/07) will mark the tenth anniversary of the end of the Goliath Chronicles. Anyone who actually has "Angels In the Night" on VHS, here's a fun fandom activity: at noon tomorrow (Noon EST, which would be 9AM for those out near the Pacific, or 10AM in the Rockies), take the tape outside, lay it on a hard surface, and strike it with a hammer. If everyone does this at once, I bet the sound could travel pretty far.

I'll post a reminder tomorrow morning. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 7:00:51 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Alex Garg: You're right. I admit I overreacted back there
It's better to be postive anyway. Sales could very well pick up for issue #3, seeing as it's new material.
I sent a letter to the comic site- it's a good idea
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Wed, Feb 14, 2007 1:05:45 am EST from 64.12.117.12

Sorry for the double post...

I think what I'm getting at is... that seems to be reading too much into what wasn't even intended in the first place. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and all.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 11:48:22 pm EST from 76.168.61.199

Phoenician-- Ahh. Point taken.

I still think it's almost doubly ironic to jump to that conclusion about black and white art versus colour. But I can why you'd see it that way, though I still disagree. ^_^
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 10:50:54 pm EST from 76.168.61.199

I almost hate to bring it up, but the philosophy of "Don't criticize, just eat up whatever they give us" is what gave us stuff like Barney, Power Rangers, and the musical stylings of Kevin Federline.

129 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 10:32:51 pm EST from 65.43.179.142

Kythera: I wasn't out to say that black and white was bad. On the contrary, I'm a fan of the old classic black and white films (My favorite two being "The Good Earth", and "Its a Wonderful Life"), and I know that color not only doesn't mean "better" but it also has not effect on the the character(s) as well.

All I was trying to do was point out the potential irony if this situation were to actually take place -- that "the Gargoyles Universe" would literally be seen in black and white when the show/comic, metaphorically teaches that the world, and the people who live in this world, are not.

I seriously wasn't trying to critize the black & white art in general. Sorry if it came out that way.

And GregXB -- I wrote an email about an 3/4 hours ago. And if you say there's no point in panicking, then that's good enough for me.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 9:57:39 pm EST from 157.242.214.141

I emailed that comic page Greg mentioned. Did you?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 9:09:00 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Alex Garg> "I look at the current discussion and wonder what people would say if tomorrow Greg announced that the show was going to resume its animated run"

Heh, I had a dream once about that happening.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:58:16 pm EST from 69.95.91.104

What I'm going to say is meant to be direct, not offensive; but since the Internet has not yet allowed us to convey inflections in our text, I know it might not seem that way.

With the disclaimer out of the way, all this doom and gloom talk strikes me as, at the least, a severe case of stubbornness, and at worst juvenile.

If you've been to a Gathering, you've heard about the inauspicious beginnings of the show as a comedy and the lukewarm reception to the original pitch of its more familiar form. And yes, the show ended up getting cancelled on a bad note; Yes, the DVD took a while to launch and did not perform as well as we would have liked; Yes, there was an unfortunate delay in getting the second issue of the comic out and a further delay with issue three, and we all have our opinions about the art. But twist those apparent negatives around: There is a comic book out *at all* and we are about to receive our first, new canon material in a decade; There was a DVD released in which the fandom was profiled; There was a show *at all.*

Quite frankly, I look at the current discussion and wonder what people would say if tomorrow Greg announced that the show was going to resume its animated run, but due to various reasons certain members of the cast could not be reasonably expected to lend their talents. Given the current mood, I would half expect the comment board to bypass the wonderful news and complain that the show wasn't *worth* bringing back without every last original cast member who could be found.

Or on the opposite end of the spectrum of the hypothetical, let's take the doom and gloom to the Nth degree and say the franchise collapses. The comic fails, SLG doesn't renew the license, Disney throws everything Gargoyles related into its vault, and Greg decides to move on with other projects. Would you all break your bonds of friendship with the people you've met through the fandom? Would you really throw a fit and perceive that your world had come to an end?

Now, I'm not saying we should be blindly grateful for any scraps which should fall from the table, but at the same time I don't perceive that we have the leverage to go and make demands or set expectations that aren't realistic given the current realities. Nobody has ever been obligated to take a chance with the Gargoyles franchise, from the first pitch to the comic book, and I think that should temper the dire language which has been thrown around.

I personally believe that there have been better times to be a Gargoyles fan - I think back to some of the friends I originally had in the fandom whom I haven't heard from in years, and I see fewer newcomers to the board and fewer people posting, and frankly it makes me feel less invested in the fandom; but at the same time, I *know* that there have been worse times to be a Gargoyles fan - right after the show's cancellation, or before there was any talk of the DVD and we seemed to be headed for a very slow demise.

At the last, complaining isn't going to solve anything; I don't even think it's actually making any of you who are complaining feeling any better (it's certainly not doing much for the "Hold on!" camp) in a vaguely therapeutic sense. Greg W. has spent much of his time and effort selling the franchise's continuation to interested parties, and all he has asked us to do is keep the fandom in the spotlight and spread the word, and Greg B. has given us a way to do so.

We need ideas which will give us visibility, not complaints and wishes for things that we'd like but won't likely get. I don't intend to pass judgment on which complaints or criticisms are valid or empty, and I certainly have some complaints of my own. I only think that we need to be constructive right now, and other than Greg B.'s latest effort, I haven't heard anything else that's particularly constructive that will get us to advance the franchise we have such affection for.

I say write your e-mails, and also look for other potential websites that could be interested in publishing a review of the comic and post those sites here. It's our best bet right now.

And that's the way I see it.
Alex Garg - [fiatnox at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:54:18 pm EST from 68.48.114.157

KingCobra: Lol, I actually didn't realize that until I saw the online commentary of the ep on Nbc.com. Greg Grunberg makes this really corny joke using Fagerbakke's name...can't remmber what he said - but it was pretty funny.

And how cool is that that they have online ep commentaries! That would be so awesome if Gargoyles had that.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:19:51 pm EST from 64.12.117.12

Vaevictus> Lol, I didn't mean you should go buy Prime membership. I meant that I might be able to have it shipped to you, since shipping is free for me. I've done that for my friends a handful of times. I don't do it much, since that seems like it would be abusing the system, but for a $3 comic book it doesn't seem unreasonable. Anyway, you should email me if you're interested.
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:14:04 pm EST from 66.31.44.143

Purplegoldfish> I KNEW that was Bill Fagerbakke! :P
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:48:57 pm EST from 69.95.91.104

Kythera: Someone's breathing improperly?

HOLY SHIT! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, EVERYONE!!

( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:40:15 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

I think this fandom has started to inbreed after twelve-odd years, to the point of hair-triggering over somebody breathing wrong. It's getting kind of scary.

Siren-- There's a big difference between quality and style. Most of the arguments I recall hearing were about quality, not style. Just something to keep in mind. Expecing quality from a Disney property should not be childish (though in light of things like Cinterella III, maybe it is...). It seems far more childish to me to just "settle" and "be grateful", and certainly juvenile of the company to expect us to be thankful for table scraps instead of nothing at all. But that's just me.

Kaylle-- Black and white printing is more common in indie titles..probably because it IS considerably cheaper. Poison Elves, for example. That's been going on for YEARS in spite of various delays (from what I understand, anyway... it's not a title I read, myself). One of my three favorite comic artists, Dan Schaffer, has done three black and white books thus far--two standalone graphic novels, and one bimonthly series that ran for 18 issues. http://www.danielschaffer.com/ Also consider that most manga is drawn in black and white, and ranges from upbeat to VERY dark in tone. I think Gargoyles has the potential to work very well in black and white, should it come to that.
Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:37:12 pm EST from 65.169.99.145

This is all way, way, way, way premature.

Right now, we know we have till at least August 2008, and Vado says he's going to renew the license if even just to keep current titles in print. Could that change? Maybe. Right now, no one is talking about cancellation.

And it wasn't just "Gargoyles" that suffered delays, it was the other Disney books as well. "Gargoyles" has potential, especially in this superhero dominated genre. It has all the right elements.

With proper momentum, a regular release, and NEW stories, it might make it. We're getting the new stories. As I understand it, the next few issues are in production and will be out on time. We most likely won't be suffering a massive delay like we did with issue 2 again. Issue 3 being delayed a few weeks happens all the time in this industry.

There's no reason to panic, Godzilla is not approaching Tokyo Bay.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:20:50 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I meant to say "making us this miserable".
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:14:24 pm EST from 4.245.22.74

In light of all the doom and gloom attitude about the comic, I'm tempted to say that it would be better if it was simply cancelled, or had never come out in the first place. It seems that we spend most of our discussions about the comic complaining about Hedgecock's artwork, about the delayed issues, or about the possibility of it getting cancelled. If the comic being out is making this much miserable, maybe it'd be better to have it cancelled and move on to other things that have more of a future.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:13:37 pm EST from 4.245.22.74

Kaylle: you're right about the printing. My bad.

I seriously doubt disney comes in here. And even if they do, we represent a tiny tiny part of the fandom - they would be idiots if they just went by what a few hard core fans said in a public message board.

And Disney IS screwing us over with the comics right now. Why is it taking them so damn long to approve it? It should have been done during the delay of season two. What were they and SLG doing all that time for five months?

I'm grateful to them for the comic, but frankly I would rather have nothing than to have the comic be shelved after only a few issuues. I would accept the comic if it were in black and white - but I have to wonder...Would their profit be much better? Would people buy a Disney comic in black and white?

I can't believe Vado's already spouting doom and gloom after only two issues, and I'm sure that huge delay had something to do with the lowering sales. If the stories stop coming in next year, I'm thinking I might just leave the fandom for good - I'm sick of the dissappointments.

anyway, on a more positive note-
Does anyone watch "Heroes?" There was a brief cameo role from Bill Fagerbakke in last night's episode. He was, uh, half naked and wearing a towel in the scene lol.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:41:45 pm EST from 64.12.117.12

Todd: And I like pudding. What's your point? ( ;
Seriously, I just never found him very appealing. Which surprised me. I was the only person in my 300-Level English class that liked Melville.

Phoenician: I have to second what Kythera is saying. This past weekend, I watched Aronofsky's "Pi" for the first time. Great movie. I think being black and white actually helped it, stylistically. Color does not always equal better. Can't name any comics at the moment, but movies I'd recommend are "The Seven Samurai," "Citizen Kane," and "Clerks" (plus too many by Hitchcock to name).

And honestly, I have to say the whole doom and gloom thing is getting me down, as well. I wouldn't say anything is doomed until I see something in writing saying so. Is #3 still slated for March as far as people know?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:34:54 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Honestly, I don't think there's any reason to panic and go gloom and doom yet. Vado did say he's probably going to renew the license and keep putting out the comic.

And yes, printing in black and white is considerably cheaper than printing in color.

Has anyone written to Newsarama asking them to do an article on Gargoyles or interview Greg?

matt@newsarama.com
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:29:37 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Amen, Siren.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:23:10 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I don't care if they make Gargoyles into novels or novelettes with NO pictures, so long as the STORIES continue. Personally, its a pet peeve of mine to see all the bitching about the art...Is it in the same style as the series? No, but consider there is a WHOLE NEW team of artists creating the comic, each with their own style. I know I mentioned it before but a good example is X-Men. Look at the style at the beginning and then through the years. The style ALWAYS changed, but the stories often remained just as strong, if not stronger. I don't get the comic book for the art, I get it for the story. I don't care if it went to black and white. I just want the stories to continue. So if I had the choice of cutting costs and going to black and white or no Gargoyles comic at all....I vote for black and white 1000%!

I just wonder if Disney watches this board and sees all the rants and fights about the artwork and thinks the fan base is nothing but ungrateful little children. They are doing us a BIG FAVOR, IMO. Yeah, they screwed us over with the DVD (so far), but still, the stories are continuing. I can't really complain much
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:12:22 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Yes Kaylle, I live in the US, but Amazon shipping is definitely not free at all. The price for books is quite steep. And as far as I know Prime membership is not free either. If I could afford to pay for that, I could afford the high shipping cost anyway.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:12:09 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

This really depresses me. Really, really depresses me. After eleven years we get new stories, and they're falling through already? After 2 issues? It does seem a litle early to say that *all* the properties have undersold their estimates. Gargoyles (and Tron?) have only had two issues! And with the massive delays they suffered, I imagine we probably lost some people right off the bat.

I don't read a lot of comics; is printing in black and white common? I've never seen one, but that's not saying much. Any idea how much more printing in color costs? And yes, black and white art can be lovely (after a year of black and white photography I really preferred it to color), but will the loss of color hurt the chances that people will pick up the comic randomly in the store and take a chance on it? I assume the price of the comic is probably stipulated in the contract with Disney, but I'd be willing to pay more per issue if it meant we got color issues and/or more issues in general.

I'd very much like to believe this is all just doom and gloom and us assuming the worst so as not to get our hopes up and then be disappointed. But I'm trying not to get my hopes up about that either.

Purplegoldfish> I could be wrong, but I think the cost is in *printing* the comic in color, not in hiring someone to color it. So fan artists coloring wouldn't help a lot. But I could be misinterpreting.

Vaevictus> Do you live in the U.S.? I get free shipping on Amazon these days (accidentally signed up for their "Prime" membership), but I think it's only within the United States.

Somewhat tangentially, did anyone write in to SLG for the little column at the end? I meant to do it, but in the whirlwind of end-of-term and holidays I didn't get around to it. But I hope someone did, because the comic will look all sad and unloved if no fans write in...
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 6:05:14 pm EST from 66.31.44.143

Re: comics- this just depresses me...*sigh* It would be horrible if we stopped getting the comics as soon as next year. And waiting for the comics now is even worse than it was when there was no comics.

As for color- I agree talented artists can create beutiful works of art in black and white where the lack of color is not a detriment. But I agree with Phoenician - it's hard to imagine these characters being colorless. The beautfiul rich colors in the animation is what drew me to the show in the first place. Gargoyles come in all different colors.

Though, I would prefer black and white comics to no comics at all.
You know, I'm willing to bet that there a lot of artists in the fandom who would be willing to color a few issues for very little pay or even for nothing! (myself included.)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 4:55:57 pm EST from 64.12.117.12

Phoenician-- That's an incredibly dim view to take of black and white art by itself. Yes, sometimes colour or lack thereof can be used to make a statement, but sometimes it's JUST the vehicle, not the statement. Speaking as an artist who does a lot of black and white work as well as colour, I'm hard pressed not to take offense. Colour does not always equal "better"--that in and of itself is a very stereotypical point of view to take.
Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 4:09:09 pm EST from 65.169.99.145

The delay prevented me from buying #2 anyway. If it had come out on time I would have ordered it alongside #1 and the DVD. But it was not available at the time. And I cannot afford to pay more for shipping than for the comic itself, so I plan on ordering 2 or 3 at a time. So I have to wait until #3 comes out, and is available on Amazon. And with #2 there was an additional delay of about a month after it came out, before SLG made it available through Amazon.

Today I plan to watch The Gathering. I already know about Alex being born, and about Owen and Anastasia's secret identities. Greg W. himself spoiled the Owen bit at Convergence. I'm still looking forward to these episodes, of course.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 3:30:51 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

"Gargoyles would be okay if we switched it to black & White"

Oh that would be horrid!! But would sacrificing the color be worth for the new stories??

How ironic that a show/comic that tries to show that the world IS NOT black and white could EVER be drawn as such.

And GregXB - Writing that email right now.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 3:01:44 pm EST from 157.242.223.122

Ugh, this sounds very bad. :( It almost does sound like the contract is designed pessimistically.

But I'm not surprised at the sales drop-off, what with the delays that happened.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:48:57 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vado just posted this in a reply to a question I asked:

"While the first issue of all of the Disney comics did well, the subsequent drop-offs were pretty dramatic. Haunted Mansion offers the best example. The first issue sold well over 20,000 copies, but the comic is down to around 3,000 copies. None of the other titles has performed as well as that one.

Gargoyles does have potential and my feeling is that we are going to renew our license if even just to keep our current titles in print. Gargoyles could be okay if we switched it to black and white, but I would need to get Disney's approval on that since our license and contract specifically calls for a color comic.

And, yes, they are all one license."

So, he's still willing to keep going.

That being said, we can probably help a little. So, once again, I'm encouraging everyone here to write to Newsarama and ask for an article on the comic and/or an interview with Greg.

matt@newsarama.com
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:40:47 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Here's some quotes from the blog:
"The way I see it, by the time we get this thing under control our license will expire (that, by the way, is August 2008, which in comic book time is a lot closer than you think)." - From this, I gather we have comics coming at least through August 2008, barring each comic becoming unprofitable to produce.

"The Disney thing (as I call it) has not been what one might call a success for us. While the comics have sold better than the rest of our line (for the most part) the sales have not justified the amount of time, money and effort that has gone into these projects." - His return on investment for the Disney comics isn't as high as everything else. Sadly, many popular products get discontinued because they don't have a high enough rate of return.

"ON top of that, I made some bad contractual decisions that are coming back to haunt me. Lesson learned, just as you should never get into a land war in Asia, you should also never make a deal with Disney that involves creating original content with their properties." The contract, as I understood it, required a huge amount of cash upfront. That's good and that's bad. If he can reach the break-even point where sales for the comics have paid for the contract, it's pure profit for him from there. But breaking even isn't going to get the contract with Disney renewed. I'm guessing that he has to make at least 5%-10% of the cost of the contract in profits before he'll consider renewing the contract. If the contract was different, let's say Disney gets paid for very comic sold when it is sold, it would be easier on slg and potentially more profitable for Disney. The nature of the contract is designed to *discourage* contracts.

**Warning: Rant**
Suppose slg manages to make huge profits in comic sales off of one of Disney's properties. At that point, what is to keep Disney from not renewing that contract so that Disney can produce that comic themselves, taking off from where slg left?

If that's the case, that means slg isn't as willing to spend as much money on the advertising, knowing that if it's too successfull, Disney might not renew the contract so they can produce it themselves and the money slg spent on advertising went down the toilet.
**End: Rant**

GXB - from the way he talked at the gathering, each comic title with Disney comes is on a separate contract (ie. bad sales from Tron won't cause Gargoyles to be cancelled)
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:36:14 pm EST from 162.40.58.81

Here's an idea... I'm going to sit down at once, but a great way to get some press for the comic, especially with issue 3 coming out, would be to get an article about it (or an interview with Greg) up on newsarama. Newsarama is probably the largest comic book news site on the internet.

Here is the e-mail address of the guy in charge of these things there...

matt@newsarama.com

So, if everyone would take the time to write him an e-mail telling him about the comic book, that you're excited about it, and would like to see an article or an interview about it, that would be great. Newsarama is big. It will reach a lot of people.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:19:35 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Comic> The problem of advertizing comics to an audience that doesn't go into comic stores already is an industry-wide one. Even the bigger publishers have had problems with it. They do have the benefit of things like big tie-in video games and movie franchises, which smaller publishers generally do not. But whether successful games and movies actually get people into comic stores to check out the original material is debateable.

Many companies have gone the route of putting a higher focus on getting things out in trades. While single issue comics are seldom found outside of dedicated comic stores (and even when they are, it's usually Marvel, DC and Archie and not much else), many bookstores carry collected volumes of comics and stand alone graphic novels (though more and more of that space is being devoted to manga). Unfortunately, this isn't an option for "Gargoyles" yet, as we're just coming up on the third issue and a three issue trade which doesn't finish out the storyline isn't a particularly appealing idea.

Given that the projected sales for the Disney titles were apparently higher than SLG's other titles, yet still considered conservative, I wonder if Vado was counting on the Disney publicity machine to help promote the book. Unfortunately as we've seen, the Disney publicity machine is not all that interested in promoting anything it doesn't already believe will make a ton of money.

My impression from Vado's post is that both Disney and SLG were trying something new and neither may have been quite prepared. If you look at SLG's other comics, as Vado said, they are largely creator owned and creator driven concepts. They generally come out whenever the creator can get an issue done, often because the creator is working on other stuff to pay the bills. The fanbase generally understands this and is willing to wait because they like the creator's work and wouldn't want to see the title done without him or her. The Disney line is an entirely different animal. It is driven by concepts and characters more than creators (with the exception of Greg Weisman). It's an attempt to combine two rather unlike entities: the indy cred of SLG and the characters and ideas of Disney, generally associated with all ages family fare. It's licensed, which means additional money and additional approvals. Since this is such a new thing, both for SLG in trying out licensed properties and for Disney in having comics for the teen and twentysomething crowd made based on their properties, unfortunately there's not much of a blueprint to go by. And unfortunately, it does not sound like Vado feels like the benefits are worth the overall cost. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but hearing this, I'm not sure if either company will want to renew the agreement come 2008.
Demonskrye
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:18:32 pm EST from 67.100.23.24

I think Dan Vado hints a bit at the delays around issue #2 (for more than just the Gargoyles book) when he says "and I over-taxed our resources". Maybe a problem with too many books, not enough artists and colorists? I'm pretty sure Dave Hedgecock was/is working on other titles, not just Gargoyles. The art delays may have revolved around that. That might be the reason why we're seeing guest-artists and guest-colorists in future issues of Gargoyles. I forget if it was the 2005 or 2006 con but I remember Dan fielding a question about hiring outside artists (fan artists). He specifcially said their books were produced by in-house talent only. Clearly that policy has changed.

I'm guessing the guest-artist thing is going to be a trial-run. If it goes relatively smoothly and proves to remove some of the stress on SLG it'll probably continue.

I'm not sure what the gripe is with Disney. A past post on the SLG blog had said Gargoyles #3 was being delayed due to them having to get final approval from Disney. Does that mean Disney is taking their sweet time? Is that what Dan is hinting at in his post about problems dealing with Disney? There's probably some behind-the-scenes drama with Disney we're not aware of and probably never will. We just have to believe that SLG and Disney both want these books to go foward and that they will, at least through 2008 when the license is up for renewal.
Gorebash
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 1:01:29 pm EST from 207.206.245.249

HoE> Watch it, Faulkner is one of the greats.

BATTLE BEAST> No where in there did Vado come out and say that it's Disney's fault for the delays. No where did he say that. I'm sure there are lots of things Disney is at fault for, but, let's not go and make things up off the cuff. SLG has said previously that the art for issue 2 took longer to complete than previously thought.

Of course, Tron and Wonderland suffered massive delays around the same time, so, who knows? Either way, we don't know, and I don't think we should be going around making accusations until all the facts are in.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 11:36:30 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Vado makes it sound liek it's Disney's fault for delaying the comics. That making stuff off their property is a hassle. Something like that. Why would Disney do this?

I don't like these sounds much.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 10:39:53 am EST from 142.59.179.178

Patrick> Not to mention the devastated, smoky landscape, the rag-tag band of (in this case literally) underground rebels, Big Brother figure, and technology gone wild. Those are such staples that I can't recall right now which movies/books/comics to ascribe them to. Characters with heavy physical scarring/modifications also seem to be common in a lot of series that have a fast-forward to a possible dystopian future. Eh.

Though Broadway with his empty eye sockets is a great creepy visual.

The fast pacing of the episode also contributes to its "over the top" feel. And yes, Puck is a bastard.

Did Demona's armour remind anyone else a bit of those unecessary golden shoulder pads added to the Kenner Demona figure? I couldn't watch the series while it was airing, so I don't know which came first. Hm.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 10:39:14 am EST from 142.13.22.51

Dan Vado, president/owner of SLG posted to his blog about the Disney comics deal SLG has. He seems to be pretty down on the prospects of the whole thing. Hopefully that'll change. He says all the Disney books undersold their conservative estimates. That sucks. I thought Gargoyles did well? And how the hell does Wonderland undersell? You've got some great story telling and art from Sonny Liew; that thing should sell itself.

Is it advertising? I saw the bit for SLG's Disney stuff in Previews but that was about it. Getting word out to those without access to Previews.. how is that done? Just word of mouth?
Gorebash
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:47:29 am EST from 207.206.245.229

HofEyes> "If Chavez's daughter is any indication, no shopping cart was safe anymore."
HAHAA!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:31:37 am EST from 24.207.163.239

HARVESTER - Better not let Greg Weisman hear you say that; he likes Faulkner.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 8:11:36 am EST from 4.244.213.163

Patrick: I'd say twenty, perhaps a twenty-two. But who knows, I might be way over. ( ;

Incisivis: Yeah, those were some pretty ghastly conditions. If Chavez's daughter is any indication, no shopping cart was safe anymore. Me, I'm just amused by what a twisted little bastard Puck is. He needs a way to get the Phoenix Gate handed to him, so he comes up with this elaborate plan to torture Goliath by making him watch everyone he cares about die horribly. I hope we get to see Puck in the comics at some point (as Puck, anyway).

Greg B: Hopefully, they ruined some books by Faulkner in the process.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Squeezing through the valleys, pausing briefly in the corries, the ice mother mates and a new age is born." -Ian Anderson ("Something's On the Move")
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:36:01 am EST from 71.62.204.109

I'm probably saying this a little early (since Vaevictis hasn't reached "The Gathering" yet), but I've sometimes wondered if part of the reason why Goliath suggested Puck for the job of tutoring Alex (though he was the logical choice, anyway) was to get back at him for that nightmare.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 13, 2007 7:14:31 am EST from 4.244.213.163

This fandom must be starving for new things to discuss if we're delving for hidden meanings in Angela changing her clothes. How would you like to wear the same thing for 1000 years?

"Future Tense" was so over the top, I knew it had to be more than it seemed. Puck even worked in the obligatory "Planet of the Apes" Statue of Liberty vignette. The idea that dying in a virtual reality will cause a person to die in real life... that's how it worked in "The Matrix", too.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!" - Taylor, "Planet of the Apes"
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 11:56:19 pm EST from 70.229.197.238

MATT> Yeah, I believe it was the library... hell, the risk of getting caught may have been half the fun. Who knows?

INCIVIS> Not saying it's symbolic of anything, just... well, ya never know.

I do agree about "Future Tense" though... every Apocalyptic Future cliche was thrown in there. Puck has such a sadistic sense of humor... who says being a trickster is all fun and games. This is the sort of thing Loki would do.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 10:56:03 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Broadway and Angela> I keep wondering. Where did they finally "do it". It's not like they have their own bedrooms... do they? And the library seems too public. I dunno, for some reason where the deed was done intrigues and humors me.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 10:53:21 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

GregX> I dunno, I'd think she'd have had a good sense to strip first. It's not like she's got a closetfull of other outfits, after all. The entire idea that there might be something symbolic behind her costume change isn't my thing.

But, hey, Angela scored, way to go. :P

I haven't seen "Future Tense" in a while, but I remember feeling that the episode was...well, the conditions the characters lived under were horrible, no doubt, but Puck's illusion had so many post-apocalyptic cliches that I found my eyes rolling a few times, which made its status as Puck's illusion just perfect. I could picture him marathoning dystopian sci-fi movies to get the right ideas for this.

And, hey, Brooklyn and Demona together might show why kissing isn't a usual gargoyle custom; it'd be hard when you have a different mouth structure than your love. Heh.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 10:40:41 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Here's a fun little discussion topic. Since we probably won't mind out until next month, what do YOU think the main characters of "Gargoyles" should dress as for Halloween? You can pick anything you want, but bonus points (redeemable for nothing) will be awarded if you stick to generic characters (like "pilot" and "detective") and/or Disney characters (like Belle from "Beauty and the Beast") as the show did.

I haven't come up with anything specific yet, but since the cool thing about the costumes in "Eye of the Beholder" is how they reflect the characters personalities and current interests, here's some of my general thinking:

David and Fox Xanatos - It seems reasonable that the couples in the group should have costumes that go together. I had thought they might dress as gargoyles, but that might serve to emphasize how much more "realistic" the clan's "gargoyle costumes" are. So maybe something reflecting their status as lord and lady of the castle. I don't know whether they'd want to dress up Alex.

Broadway and Angela - Another couple, another theme. I thought an Arthurian theme might suit both Angela's upbringing and Broadway's interest in reading sparked by the Scrolls of Merlin. But then again, I don't want too many knights in armor themed costumes. Given what Broadway's been reading lately, maybe Romeo and Juliet would be appropriate, though I don't know how you could get that accross without them explaining it and we know this couple ends much more happily.

Brooklyn - He's in akind of sulky loner mood at this point, but he also may be thinking about a last ditch effort to win over Angela. Something that suggests a lone wolf type would be cool. On the other hand, we is going to be embarking on his timedancing escapades very soon, so something like a samurai costume might be nice forshadowing.

Lexington - Lex hasn't gone through quite as much of a change as his rookery brothers since the previous Halloween. But he has been living in modern times longer and he might opt for something a little more technologically advanced, maybe video game inspired.

Elisa and Goliath - This is a tough one. I don't know whether Elisa feels like dressing up for the party, given that she's come to essentially break up with Goliath. And Goliath did not dress up last year. He's also not in the scene where Fox is handing out the costumes. Still, they would look kind of out of place at the party if neither of them is in costume and they may have made plans beforehand. Maybe Elisa will reprise her Belle costume and Goliath will go in Beast's ballroom outfit.

Owen - I'm sure Puck thinks Owen is not the type to dress up, so he'd only do it if Xanatos insisted on it. Something that relates back to Puck would be a nice touch, and it seems right that Xanatos would request that he do that, continuing the "hiding in plain sight" that's going on all over this party.

Hudson and Bronx - It doesn't look like they're dressing up, but that's no reason why you can't think of something for them (though I'd check your health insurance before trying to get a costume on Bronx).
Demonskrye
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 10:24:11 pm EST from 209.6.251.177

Loincloth> After 1,100 years, wouldn't *YOU* want to change your underwear?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 9:49:24 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Vaevictis Asmadi>Haha I thought brooklyn and demona made a cute couple. ;-P

I am always a little disturbed by that episode also. I remember my reation to when I first viewed it. It was just so wrong but at the same you wonder'd if that could happen.
Shara
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 9:40:25 pm EST from 4.246.208.86

Vaevictus: As far as getting killed in Cyberspace is concerned, I think that at that point, Puck just wanted to expose Goliath to as much horror as he could in order to wear down Goliath's mind. Before the third act, he'd tried to get the gate away from Goliath through gentle prodding (first with Brooklyn, and then with Demona). I think after the conversation between Demona and Goliath, Puck realized he would need to up the ante, which is why he started killing off characters left and right.

I'm also theorizing that Lexington being the mastermind is something he came up with on the fly, sort of like Brooklyn's story about what happened to Thailog. Just part of his plan to horrify Goliath.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Squeezing through the valleys, pausing briefly in the corries, the ice mother mates and a new age is born." -Ian Anderson ("Something's On the Move")
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 9:28:38 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Unfortunately, I saw some post-Tour episodes before "Future Tense," so I figured it had to be an illusion of some sort. Nevertheless, parts of it still were pretty creepy the first time through. And Broadway's death scene was very sad.

"Another off-point is that Xanatos killed Demona. Does Goliath know yet that it's impossible?" >> Interesting question. Without spoiling a future episode, Goliath may know about the Demona/Macbeth link, but "testing it in combat" is another thing. He may know intellectually, but seeing it in action is different.

And, as you mentioned in your earlier post, by now Goliath may be so disoriented by all this that he can't be sure about anything.

Even though we know that Puck's vision won't come true in its entirety, for reasons already mentioned, his final line - "Oh but *was* it a dream - or a prophecy?" - is a great ending.
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - "The Price"
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 8:53:25 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Goliath and Elisa clearly knew that by "Sanctuary"; according to Greg Weisman, they learned that from the Weird Sisters near the end of "Avalon Part Three" (while the Sisters were their prisoners). I think, though, that Goliath was feeling so horrified by then over seeing so many people whom he cared about getting killed that he didn't even register the impossibility of the Xanatos Program being able to kill Demona.

Fortunately, he noticed the improbability of Elisa being unable to pick up the Phoenix Gate herself in time to get suspicious and foil Puck's little scheme.

There are a couple of other things that I wanted to say about this episode, but I'm going to have to wait until after you've seen both parts of "The Gathering", since they're tied in with that.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 8:51:08 pm EST from 4.244.18.73

That scene probably is a cheat, then. I hadn't noticed.

Another off-point is that Xanatos killed Demona. Does Goliath know yet that it's impossible?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 8:38:51 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VAEVICTIS - I agree with you about how "off" Xanatos's behavior was in "Future Tense", which is one of the major reasons why Puck's "prophecy", even if it was that, is unlikely to be fulfilled. The "real Xanatos" is never going to be so melodramatic as to go for a blatant take-over of New York (followed by the rest of the world). He leaves that sort of thing to more conventional cartoon super-villains.

Of course, an even bigger reason is that Goliath got back to Manhattan far sooner than the "prophecy" claimed.

To me, the funniest part of the scene where Brooklyn and Demona are revealed as a couple is: not only is Goliath shocked by it, but so is Bronx!

I wonder whether the scene where Lexington (but not Goliath) sees Matt, Claw, and Bronx being disintegrated is a cheat; since the whole thing is an illusion of Puck's directed at Goliath, the other characters can't have points of view.

The "clones" that looked like Talon were actually supposed to be more Mutates, rather than clones of Thailog.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 8:22:49 pm EST from 4.244.18.73

I watched Future Tense last night and it was pretty disturbing. The effect was certainly blunted because I knew beforehand that it was illusion, but I still found it creepy. Broadway and Lexington were especially creepy, and Brooklyn+Demona is so very wrong. I actually went and watched a few scenes of one of the post-Tour episodes, just to assure myself that it was an illusion after all.

*Most of the Thailog shock troops are Thailog clones, but some of them look like Talon instead.
*The animation mostly looked good except one scene when Broadway's tail kept changing shape, with spikes appearing and disappearing.
*I don't follow how someone can be physically transported to, and killed in, cyberspace. But I suppose Puck wasn't obligated to play by the laws of physics.

Goliath's behavior in the illusion is the only part which was real, of course. It is interesting. I think that in the past people have made a big deal about his killing Lexington. It is true that in real life, Demona was just as much a gargoyle-killing traitor, and Goliath was not willing to kill her even when he thought he could (which episode did he find out otherwise -- was it Sanctuary?). I think when in his right mind he'd feel the same way about Lex even if he did turn traitor -- that he was an enemy but Goliath couldn't kill him. But here Goliath seems to have been driven out of his mind by Puck's torment. Every single aspect of it was designed to hit him in the worst way.
I notice that Goliath still has difficulty communicating effectively. He could have done a better job explaining to Brooklyn why he can't change the past, by telling him he's already tried it twice.
Goliath also recognizes that Puck and/or cyber-Lex mischaracterized Xanatos. The one thing Xanatos isn't is a one-sided villain, so his behavior in the illusion was off.

The idea that Puck's illusion may be prophecy is certainly pretty creepy. But I think a lot of the elements that seem prophetic are not really so. Alex was born about that time, so Puck would certainly know his name and hair color. Blowing up the clock tower is a convenient way to scare the home-guarding gargoyles. And although it may seem similar to what we know about the Lexington-Xanatos Corporation, in the nightmare illusion Lexington was not in fact in any form of alliance with Xanatos.

OK, maybe I'm trying to rationalize it away. It was creepy!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 8:10:44 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Demonskrye> Now if only they'd be more cautious about making direct-to-video sequels to their classic films. Cinderella 3, indeed. That's always been a sore spot for me.
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 7:22:53 pm EST from 66.31.44.143

Enchanted Jewelry> I think Lex's comments have more to do with his continuing distrust of Fox (and the noted reference to "Eye of the Beholder") than anything that any of the characters may be wearing.

Team Atlantis> Much as I'm interested in what the series might hae turned out like had it been produced (and I haven't seen "Milo's Return", so I don't really have that much of an idea of what they were going for), I feel like the show was kind of a prme example of Disney's "cart before the horse" startegy with their features at that time. They put quite a lot of time and resources (and presumably money) into a TV series based on a movie which turned out to be a pretty weak performer at the box office. Again, it sounds like it would have been pretty good conceptually, but I'm glad Disney seems a little more cautious about converting their flm properties to TV these days.
Demonskrye
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 5:00:33 pm EST from 209.6.251.177

STARLIONESS> Yeah, the enchanted jewelry line amuses me to no end. Gotta love continuity.

I didn't notice Hudson giving Broadway and Angela a look until you pointed it out. Cool.

Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but I tend to think Angela's tunic got torn the previous night in the library. Greg did say at the recent Blue Mug that Broadway and Angela lose their virginity "around the time of "The Journey". And it makes a good in-universe explanation. As for Brooklyn and Broadway's new loincloths... I tend to think the colorist made a mistake.

No idea what their costumes will be, except I hope they're different from "Eye of the Beholder".

And, something just occured to me. Obviously, the gargoyles have been living in Manhattan for two years now. The fish out of water element is mostly gone, except Greg seems to have given that to Angela. She's only been in Manhattan for a few months, so things are obviously new for her that wouldn't be new for the rest. Just an observation.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"February is Black History Month. Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them, because police officers call me 'sir'." - Stephen Colbert
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 4:44:24 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

*looks around* hmm... guess it's up to me to come up with something..

Comic Preview: nothing much to say besides what's been said. BW and Angela are cute as always. Angela looks more like Demona now with her midriff showing. I like Hudson's smirk at BW and Angela . he knows something happened last night ;).

I'd like to see what Angie's reaction to Halloween might be and what Hudson's plans for the evening would consist of.

and Lex and Fox "no enchanted jewlery?".. so who or what is Fox supposed to go as?..

can't wait to see to what the new costumes are for the Gargs , what do you think the costumes will be? we know Broadway went as a detective, Lex a pilot, and Brook a Pirate,... but what about this year? especially Angela hmm..

maybe a better question,what will the Humans dress up as?. maybe Puck will make a suprise apperance.

and what about Brook? hmm...Xanatos or Broadway hmmm... *flips a coin*..

just a quick question I couldn't find in the archives..

is Angela taller than Broadway or vice versa? it seems to depend on the episode..
Starlioness
posted @ Mon, Feb 12, 2007 4:09:49 pm EST from 71.217.116.209

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 19, 2007

Index : Hide Images