Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Thanks for the update about the Radio Play. I really look to watching that in August and I really look forward to people posting their 2007 journals because they will need to hold back on what they can and can not reveal.

What I'm really looking for, in the entries, is evidence that it's worth the time and money to go. So far it sounds cool, but I need to read justification for costs for hotel, transportation, and admission. I probably should read the past journal entries as suggested, but for now, I'll wait for the new ones and if I'm intrigued I'll go back and read the old ones. It's hard to put your mind in the time frame of what was actually going on last year, never mind years past, to really understand the frame of reference for that period of time. For 2007, it's all fresh, and I have a good background on what's going on this year thus far.

Then once I get all the information I need, I'll decide if I should ever go. Then the next hardest part will then be that IF I do decide to go, you will go with me? :-P (Maybe my brother...)
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 11:44:00 pm EDT from 72.79.186.88

Gore-- O.O! He did?? COOL! ^__^ It's good to be proved wrong now and then.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 11:12:44 pm EDT from 76.170.207.129

Radio Play _WILL_ be available on YouTube in August. It was taped. Greg himself gave the okay for this.

Hard to say what the "main event" is, but probably the banquet and masquerade. But opening ceremonies are also a key event.

Bad Guys panel was today. We didn't get much information. Greg's got a venue to tell stories now, so he's reluctant to reveal new details, although he's always up for talking about past events in the series and general questions about the business and other random bits.

A bunch of us got tattoos today. Real ones. It's the phoenix gate. The design was created by Andrea Zucconi. Yes, it hurt. No I didn't cry (nor did anyone who got it). The tattoo artist wound up, as part of his tip, an autographed copy of Season 2, Volume 1. Greg didn't get ink, but Thom Adcox sure did. It's fun.

The hotel is falling apart. Gotta go rescue comics!
Gorebash
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 10:36:20 pm EDT from 216.77.94.190

So the Radio Play turns out to be the Double Date story instead. (Now I'm glad that I didn't go to the Gathering; it would have made the wait for #5 less fun if I had.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 6:05:17 pm EDT from 4.245.21.234

I say that after this weekend, Pigeon Forge, Tennessee should be renamied Gargoyle Forge, Tennessee - Since whatever pigeons might have been there have likely been scared off by now ^_^

Sorry, in a silly mood and had to say it.
Wingless
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 3:47:48 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

TODD >> More questions have been posted that are already answered:

nilsa pabon delgado writes...
what inspire you for the idea of making a show about gargoyles?

josue hernandez writes...
why there is no more episodes?

Plus two already-answered questions from Johnny Modlin.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 3:21:37 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Since yesterday was Midsummer's Eve, it'd have been especially appropriate if the Radio Play had been "The Mirror", "Ill Met By Moonlight", or one of the two parts of "The Gathering".
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 2:25:42 pm EDT from 4.245.18.142

TiniTinyTony-- That would be especially hard, since Greg usually doesn't even ALLOW the radio play to be filmed or recorded. I think the exception was when the camera crews were filming for the documentary on the first season DVD... but then, Greg chose a previously-aired episode for that.

And like others have said, the radio play isn't *the* main event. Opening and Closing ceremonies are up there, as is the banquet. I'm partial to the art show, but then, I'm an artist, so my priorities are a little different. ;)
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 1:59:05 pm EDT from 76.170.207.129

So I got to wait a few more weeks to wait for issue 5 to come out and I feel like banging my head on my computer desk desperate to know what happens while over 40 people who watched or took part in the radio play have been told not to say a thing. Damn it sucks living in the UK who don't have enough money to come to America.

Any chance for a few teasers so could put my mind at rest, could just Email them to me and I won't say a thing, which would be pretty hard since I have no idea how many people read the comic book here in the UK. If you can't then I have to keep banging my head against the desk and then maybe to the wall
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 1:41:00 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

TiniTinyTony - The other big event that comes to my mind, besides Opening and Closing Ceremonies, is the Banquet. A Fan has an anti-Banquet of sorts. The best thing I would you suggest you do is take time to read the submitted gathering journals from all the years.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 1:32:12 pm EDT from 71.30.134.162

Oh, PAtrick. I allready intend to buy iy when it comes out, and yes I am extremely jealous that you guys know what's gonna happen, but I can wait a month. Hell, I waited SIX months for issue #2.

But I know it's gonna rock because all the other issue did, as well. :P
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 1:03:12 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

To all of you who didn't come to The Gathering 2007: I know what happens in Issue 5 of the comic book, but I can't tell you. Greg Weisman gave all of us who attended yesterday's Radio Play permission to brag and laugh maniacally, too. So "Mwahahaha ha-ha!"

Seriously... Issue 5 is going to rock. You're totally going to want to buy it when it comes out next month.

Also, pre-registration has begun for The Gathering 2008, happening June 27-30, 2008 in Chicago, Illinois. Register by the end of the year for the full package that includes membership, banquet, and a t-shirt and you'll save $35.00 off the normal combined price.

369 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"I want to walk in their footsteps, and their footsteps were like this: Aaaah! Aaaah! I'm covered in bees!"
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 12:09:38 pm EDT from 216.77.94.190

THE GATHERING 2007 questions:

1) Is there any way the radio play can be posted on youtube, AFTER Gargoyles #5 comes out in July?

2) Is the radio play the MAIN event of The Gathering? What other events do people look forward to?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 10:55:53 am EDT from 72.79.186.88

I just read some of the Unanswered questions at "Ask Greg" and oh my, people DO NOT read the archeive, do they? I mena, some of them are valid questions, but... arrgh!
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Jun 24, 2007 2:22:43 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

"b-man" causing confusion.

perhaps that is intentional.

however, how many "b" men can you think of whose costume might be thought of as being the scare crow? if you're reading the comic you know. if you're not, go buy the comic.
Gorebash
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 9:58:48 pm EDT from 216.77.94.190

VAEVICTIS - I'm going to have to talk to Greg about that one. But I agree that it gives the feeling of someone who's got way too much free time on his hands.

On the "B-Man" confusion: this is why I prefer using the characters' names rather than abbreviations. If you wind up confusing your audience about whom you're talking about, you're doing something wrong. (As the saying goes, "If you have to explain a joke, there is no joke.")
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 7:17:43 pm EDT from 4.244.215.207

Vaevictis - I Think B Man is Brooklyn ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 1:16:08 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

Who or what is "B-Man"?

TODD >> Even when he posts the ~exact~ same thing, word-for-word, twice in a row?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 12:18:00 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

<<The first trade paperback of Gargoyles, containing the first 6 issues, is set to go on sale this winter (probably November or December).>>

Arg. I have to wait until then to read the comics? =( Oh well. I suppose that's what I get for only buying them in bulk.
Aldrius
"This gives me an idea! Propaganda! Used correctly it could be as deadly as any weapon in my arsenal..."
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 11:49:54 am EDT from 207.112.43.136

I'm in Tennessee. The internet connection offered here is through a single wireless router in the lobby, away from the rooms. So access it limited.

A few pages from the next comic are on display. The art and coloring are un-#$@!-ing believable. It will not, no matter how high your expectations are, disappoint.

Greg mentioned during the opening ceremonies that he does know who is in charge over at BVHE and has already had a few e-mails with that man regarding the release of volume 2. He's asked him what can the fans do to help get volume 2 released. I'm sure once he gets a reply Greg will tell us all.

The comic-book 6-issue mini-series will be Bad Guys, Pendragon, then Timedancer (if SLG wants to do them). But at least that's the order Greg wants to do them in.

**** ISSUE #5 SEMI-SPOILERS ****

one of the pages on display shows that the b-man's costume is not scare-crow.

**** END SEMI-SPOILERS ****

The first trade paperback of Gargoyles, containing the first 6 issues, is set to go on sale this winter (probably November or December).

Other than that, nothing much to report. The radio play will be this afternoon. The banquet is tomorrow. Pretty certain the radio play is issue #5. We'll see.

Had alligator tail at a nearby restaurant. Tastes between fish and chicken.
Gorebash
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 11:18:21 am EDT from 216.77.94.190

VAEVICTIS - Only if Greg Weisman and Gorebash give their consent to that. I don't think that I have the right to start deleting Modlin's questions without it, even if they are getting tedious.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 6:34:50 am EDT from 4.244.208.100

Wow thanks. I wish I could go but I am REALLY financially down right now. I saving up to by an apartment. So anyway thanks again and everyone have fun. I saw a part of the Gathering in the dvd set and I thought it looked like so much fun. Rights lots in the journals so I can know please. May be one day I can go. ;3
Brooklyn_Fan
posted @ Sat, Jun 23, 2007 12:37:07 am EDT from 24.109.147.247

Battle Beast-- Will do! If the three large prints sell, maybe I'll do another limited run of small prints. I'll let you know either way. ^_^

And thanks to everyone else for the comments. ^_^
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 11:46:09 pm EDT from 76.170.207.129

I move that we declare any and all future posts asking Greg to call Buena Vista for S2V2, especially those posted repeatedly by Johnny Modlin, to be spam and the Todd can delete them with prejudice.

In fact, why don't we just ban any and all mention of Volume 2? That would cut out about half of the questions submitted here.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 10:40:25 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Plus, that's kick-butt artwork, Kythera!
Ashana
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 8:21:03 pm EDT from 72.226.198.188

Have fun at the Gathering, all who are going!
Ashana
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 8:19:28 pm EDT from 72.226.198.188

The May 2007 Estimates Diamond comic sales are up and Gargoyles issue 4 is 227, It has gone down as Gargoyles issue 3 went in at 189. it's Slave Labour top seller of May.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 8:14:50 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

Awesome work, Kythera!

Here's to safe travels and a fun time to all attending this year's Gathering.
Abby
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 4:46:29 pm EDT from 75.73.113.53

Kythera, that is awesome! I'll have to look at some of your other art.

Everybody, have fun at the Gathering! Tony, enjoy the wedding.

I had another comment, but I forgot what.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:41:59 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Kythera - as usual, your art ROCKS! ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:31:56 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

Yes, Please!!!
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:24:34 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Battle Beast--Thanks! I sent a set of three signed and numbered 11 x 17 prints to the con. Want me to let you know if there's one left over?
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 11:58:37 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

Sorry for the double post...

Have a blast at the con Everyone!
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 11:57:36 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

Kythera of Anevern> Damn, that's awesome! I wish I hod a copy to frame! Seriously! :)
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 11:55:49 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

This is the first year since 1999 that I've missed a Gathering. I have several reasons, but I just needed to pass on this year. I'm going to miss everyone and all the fun like the dickens. I'll hit next year for sure, though. And I still managed to send in some art. ^_^ Aw, heck... here's the piece that's making its debut over in Tennessee as of today: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/58165691/
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 11:46:33 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

LOL, I never saw that video. I'm guessing Greg B. got everyone's permission before putting it up? At any rate, it doesn't show the *whole* radio play, and it's on an episode that has already aired. If Greg decides to treat fans with an as-yet unpublished script of the next Gargoyles comic to read in the Radio Play, for instance, or an unaired episode of Spiderman, chances are that the radio play couldn't be recorded. Greg has actually made fans sign confidentiality agreements before.

Have fun at the con, everyone!
Vashkoda - [my name goes here at gmail dot com]
D2 <Can I have it?>
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 10:34:20 am EDT from 71.107.28.9

Yeah, I was seriously thinking about going this year but my best friend's wedding is this weekend. Hopefully next year I'll go to the one in Chicago just to experience it. I'm looking forward to reading the journal entries this year and see what makes it fun.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 9:51:32 am EDT from 72.79.186.88

Well that be a little hard as I live in the UK, If I win the Lottery then I'll come. If it isn't allowed then thats fine but someone put last years radio play on YouTube.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 9:12:02 am EDT from 195.93.21.4

Vicky82> I don't think that's allowed. If you want to see the Radio Play, you have to go to the Gathering.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 9:04:18 am EDT from 134.215.196.82

Is anyone planning to record the radio play at the Gathering as I would love to watch it.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 7:15:48 am EDT from 195.93.21.4

Alright gang, I'm heading out the door now for the Gathering. I hope to see a lot of you there and meet you in person. If you see a "Matt Parker" name badge, that's me.

This is Matt, signing off...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 5:49:05 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

TTTony - Actually, I would recommend reading gathering journals before going. It gives you a general idea of what to expect. Of course, now that I've been to one, I don't think it's possible to quite put to words everything that you would need to know. There are a few things I learned. There are a few decisions that I would have to re-consider, especially arrival/departure times.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 3:03:25 am EDT from 71.30.134.194

I was talking about the wing struts that attach at the shoulders, not the ones that attach at the elbows. My point was that struts growing from the shoulders evolved no matter how you slice it, so clearly they aren't implausible.

ANYWAY, I want to post a review of the comic, but it's late and I need to sleep. Tomorrow, I guess. I'd like to think I'm the very last to get the comic and nobody has had to wait longer than me, but just in case I'll use spoiler tags.

GATHERINGS: There is a website, the link is on the blue sidebar here (on this site). The location of the convention changes every year, so keep checking. This year is in Tennessee, next year is Chicago.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:49:05 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

Vaevictis Asmadi-- Re: wing "struts" or "fingers" that grow from odd places--I tend to think of these much like the elbow and knee spurs we already see on gargs. We've even seen some (like Ophelia) who have extra spines or spikes growing from the forearm. So by extension, if wings are modified arms, it follows that we'd see some gargoyle "arm extras" there as well. When I've broken most of these gargs down on paper, the basic, underlying structure of the wing still follows shoulder/elbow/wrist, but variations on that foundation (extra struts from the elbow, fewer or more numerous "fingers") are abundant. So fundamentally, I DO agree with you on that point.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:27:47 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

Thanks TiniTinyTony. I was just wondering on how to find out if it was coming out or not and thanks for the website. The only thing is that I live in a REALLY small town and most of the poeple don't even know what gargoyles is. I've told a couple people already and they were like "ok whatever". I don't really know how to get the word out. Anyways if anyone has any ideas I would liek to hear from you. Thanks again TiniTinyTony. oh and p.s where are the gatherings because I've nevr been to one and I don't know if I would evr be able to go. Are they really fun???
Brooklyn_Fan
Maria johnson
posted @ Fri, Jun 22, 2007 12:21:41 am EDT from 24.109.147.247

I was just pointing out that several of them have wings that don't make sense as hands/wings. Especially the three (Desdemona, long-horned brown Wyvern guy, and spikey green Avalon guy) who have wing-"fingers" attached directly to their *shoulders*. No matter where the rest of the wing came from, it *is* possible for the wing to include bony rods growing directly from the shoulder and spine area. They are right there. So which is more plausible: that the bony rods grew from the shoulders and nothing else, OR the arms were somehow doubled without any damage to the spine genes, *and* the bony rods grew from the shoulders.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 11:13:17 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

I'd really love to get into this biology discussion, but I've been busy as hell (getting ready for the Gathering, work, etc.).

Suffice to say I generally support Vaevictis' theory mostly. Since I have long theorized that Gargates branched off from Synapsids (many of which had spinal sails), the sail to wing link seems pretty likely to me. I do admit that many gargoyle wings resemble bat wings, but keep in mind Greg has talked a lot about the so-called Chameleon Mutation Gene. Perhaps some gargoyles have bat-like wings due to the influence of this gene. And besides, there is no way of knowing which, if any, of the wing types is the ancestral form. More ancient gargoyles may all have had Zafiro's wings or Una's or Lex's or Yama's. It's very hard to say, but just because most of the gargoyles we've seen are Scottish, doesn't mean that Scottish gargoyles most resemble ancient Gargates. There is no reason to assume that.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 10:32:51 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Have fun at the Gathering!

I'd like to go, but, well, there's that whole no-money thing. One of these years....heh.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 9:03:10 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

I *finally* got comics 3 and 4 today. Thanks, Greg!

I like Nir Paniry's art more than Hedgecock's. Fewer characters are off-model, and Thailog looks great. The stabs of light in Goliath's eyes are less intrusive, though I'd prefer they weren't there at all.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 8:10:25 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Everyone preparing to head off to the Gathering - have a yourselves a safe trip and have fun. If any of you have a laptop and can check in over the weekend and say hi, that would be great too. ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 7:16:30 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

off topic question: does anyone know what greg thinks about alien life in our universe? In the real world, not in the gargoyle universe? Does he have no beliefs about aliens?
Dan
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 6:11:20 pm EDT from 64.12.116.200

Thanks, Todd. I was wondering about how Princess Elena's family ended up with the Phoenix Gate. I'm fairly certain, outside of tgs, that the Phoenix Gate made its way to way during the reign of Caesar Augustus. Making it from Rome to Charlemagne isn't too much of a stretch in my head, considering how Charlemagne became the Holy Roman Emperor.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 4:52:11 pm EDT from 71.30.134.194

Its clear to me that the gargoyles are really different from any other animal. It may be that their DNA is different. They not only have 6 limbs but they are also the only animals able to glide such large distances. Or glide at all considering tha their bones are as heavy as ours.
Demon@
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 3:01:00 pm EDT from 24.232.26.207

Let's keep evolution in perspective here: Creatures with neon red feathers, four limbs, an internal skeleton, and a bright yellow beak, as well as creatures with eight limbs and an exoskeleton who make sticky rope in pretty geometric patterns, as well as bipeds with hair in funny places and the capacity to make structures rivalling small mountains in height, as well as fungus...all evolved from the same microscopic, amorphous blob of a single-celled organism, which has, relatively speaking, squat in common with all of the above lifeforms. (Anyone want to challenge me for the title of "longest, most convoluted sentence author?" I gotta lose it some day...) So the relative likelihood of six-limbed vertabrates v. wings evolving from spinal "nubbins/extensions" ... in the big picture? Probably not all that different.
Ashana
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 12:25:00 pm EDT from 72.226.198.188

Vaevictis Asmadi-- Sorry. To me, nubbins on a small bone evolving to resemble a modified set of arms... less plausible than the moon being made of green cheese. But at this point, I no longer give a damn because I ultimately *don't care* about the whys and wherefores beyond how it affects the way I interpret it on paper, and on paper, gargoyle wings = modified arms. I regret even opening my gorram mouth to give David some constructive criticism back there if it was going to open this festering can of worms.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 11:22:01 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

Wings > Gargoyle DNA is just as old as any other DNA on earth. We all evolved from the same common ancestor in the Precambrian, 3.5 billion years ago.

The way I see it, the common ancestor of gargoyles and garg-beasts had wings, and the ancestors of the beasts simply lost those wings. That doesn't prevent the wings from evolving from spine or rib elements.

I agree with Demonskrye that we're trying to come up with an explanation for what was put on the show. I never said I wasn't doing that. But Kythera, you asked which is more plausible, and a second pair of arms is less plausible to me by a huge margin. There's nothing preventing fin-like-wings from later evolving to look more like bat wings.

It being a fantasy setting means that things are less realistic -- I think that stone sleep isn't biologically plausible. But Greg has said many times that gargoyles aren't actually magical. So the most plausible biological explanation is the one I go with.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 10:12:16 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

Brooklyn_Fan> The best thing for you to do, as a fan, is to tell 1000 people other than those in this room. This will explain it: http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=6182

All> I hope everyone has a great time at "The Gathering". I really don't like reading long drawn out journal entries, but I actually look forward to it because sometimes I get bored at work and it will give me something interesting to read about. Bring on the novels!
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 8:04:27 am EDT from 72.79.189.200

VAEVICTIS - I suppose that your questions are all right, though I'll have to think about them a little more. Often, the boundaries between an innocent question and an idea can be very murky.

Modlin might equally well just be very obsessive - kind of like Winston Churchill's definition of a fanatic as someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

DPH - This is why I don't visit Slave Labor Graphics' site. I don't want to be constantly worrying about delays.

I looked up the family tree of the Dukes of Normandy, but couldn't find any firm evidence that they'd married any of Charlemagne's descendants by the end of the 10th century. By 975, it was still a relatively young family; the first duke had only been installed in 911. (He was a Viking named Hrolf the Ganger or Rollo; the then King of France, Charles the Simple, made him Duke of Normandy because he was not strong enough to drive him away. Hrolf married the daughter of the Count of Bayeux, and their son was William Longsword, who in turn was Richard the Fearless's father.) So far, I haven't found any indication that they married into Charlemagne's descendants (who were petering out anyway by this point, until at some point in the 10th century - I forget when - a chap named Hugh Capet kicked the last ones off the Frankish throne and founded a new dynasty which lasted until the early 14th century).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 7:58:16 am EDT from 4.244.212.29

Hey I just wanted to say That I love gargoyles. This series is amazing and I bought both season one and season 2 vol 1. and I want to say thank you very much for putting them out. I couldn't wait to see if volume two would be out anytime soon so I looked on the internet and then read that it might not be put out on dvd. I know it sounds pathetic but please please please take into considereation of all the fans that are out there(like me) begging and hoping for it to come out. I love gargoyles and I will always love gargoyles. I promise that if it comes out I will be one of the first ones to buy it no matter the cost. Thanks for reading this and again thanks for putting seasons 1 and 2 out. Bye bye.
Brooklyn_Fan - [howthe_world_is at gmail dot com]
Maria Johnson
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 2:23:42 am EDT from 24.109.147.247

Sorry if I missed anyone, but I hope everyone has a blast at the Gathering.

Garg-Wings: I don't really know anything about DNA, but is it posssible that gargates managed to overcome the four-limbs-to-a-vertabrate because they've existed longer than many modern vertabrates? Although... modern mammals are descended from the shrew-like rodents that were alive before the Cretateous, so the DNA would be just as old wouldn't it...

I don't know. I guess I'm gonna go with the whole suspension of disbelief thing. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 1:22:42 am EDT from 24.126.61.128

I'm off on my trek to the con in about six hours. If the hotel doesn't have free internet, this will be my last post here until early next week.

1 day left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Jun 21, 2007 12:29:51 am EDT from 65.43.180.75

Demonskrye-- Thank you. I think that's the point I was ultimately trying to make, and you summed it up very nicely. ^_^
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 11:27:25 pm EDT from 76.170.207.129

So I was right about who the father Princess Elena was. Richard I of Normandy was the Duke of Normandy from 942 to 996. He was called Richard the Fearless.

Todd - I have a question for you. Could Princess Elena count the Holy Emperor Charlemange as an ancestor?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:50:49 pm EDT from 71.30.134.194

dph_of_rules> Maybe you can e-mail Dan Vado and ask him to update his site for "slave labor" wages.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:17:32 pm EDT from 72.79.189.200

Well, it's official that I won't be able to attend this year. Oh well, maybe Chicago will work better for me next year. Sux, I wanted to see the artwork in the art area so bad. Have a fun time at the gathering whoever is going.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
High school graduation is one week away!!! YAY!!!!!!
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:02:56 pm EDT from 69.231.202.84

The Gathering is almost upon us!

And lo, I shall vanish from the internets to traipse across the skies in a giant metal bird to the land of Pigeon Forge, where I shall see my comrades once again after far too long absent! (Provided I don't have a heart attack from the shock of being a first time flyer. O.O!)

For those attending - looking forward to seeing you! And for those who aren't - party hard!

*whooooshes away!!!*
(I'm excited; can you tell? :P )
The Sadistic Cow
I believe the children are our future... unless we stop them NOW!
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 9:20:48 pm EDT from 24.150.120.87

don't have a background in biology, as I just said.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 9:08:36 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

I just wanted to go on the record and say that I've heard the audio commentary for "Awakenings" and know that the caping was a stylistic choice, but it goes with a lot of weirdness about gargoyle wing anatomy, and think it should be analyzed on the same terms.

I will fully admit that I'm lost on the how and why such a huge variety of wing structures could evolve. Fun to contemplate, though I dont'
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 9:07:29 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

I once read somewhere the following thing: "Human beings share 50% of their genes with bananas. This is more apparent in some people than others." :D

So, my previous questions about the Children of Oberon seem to have bothered Greg, since he gave me a so-called smart-ass" response to one of them, that seems to indicate he didn't like something I said... anyway, I need to run these questions by Todd before posting them, to check if they are OK.

6. When a mortal becomes an Avatar of a Child of Oberon, does that form any bond between them and the Child of Oberon, sort of like the Coyote Dance formed a bond between Coyote and Peter Maza?

7. In some cultures, shamans believe that they have a personal connection to an animal totem who acts as a helper or spirit guide. In the "Gargoyles" universe, do any of the Kachinas such as Raven and Coyote form personal connections to shamans or other individual humans (besides the one formed in the Coyote Dance)?

8. How many people can be avatars of a single Child of Oberon at any one time? Is there a limit?

9. a. Are halflings vulnerable to iron the way that the Third Race are?
b. Can a halfling be bound with iron, the way Puck was in The Mirror?

10. The Children of Oberon cannot use their magic on iron. Can halflings use fae magic to affect iron?

11. The Children of Oberon can take on truly mortal forms, with no magic except their ability to change back. Is this ability limited to the forms of Earth creatures, or could a Child of Oberon take the form of an extra-terrestrial species, supposing they had seen one?

12. a. Does each Child of Oberon have an inherent sex or gender, or is their sex/gender only a shape they take? I think of sex as a biological trait, but gender isn't necessarily so.
b. Not necessarily the same question ... can Children of Oberon take on shapes of either gender (or no gender, or hermaphroditic, or make up an imaginary gender)? Can they take mortal forms of either sex?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 8:43:16 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

made a small, obvious change to ask greg. now when you're browsing through nodes and there are more in your search results than fit on screen you'll get that "next, next 10, next 100" dealie at the bottom, where you wind up after reading the first 10 or so. should make things a little easier for people.
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 7:29:11 pm EDT from 71.243.2.74

Vaevictus: Me neither. On average, only about ten percent of the nucleotides in any organism's DNA are vastly different from those in another organism.

On another note: I've spent the last couple days getting everything in order at work, and I got halfway home today and realized I forgot to change my voicemail message to say I'd be out from the 21st to the 25th. Ah, well.

I'm getting back to packing now, and I'll probably be underground for the next 24 hours. Assuming the universe doesn't implode, my brother and I should be there tomorrow evening. Looking forward to finally seeing some of you in person!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The ocean is a desert with its life underground, and a perfect disguise above. Under the cities lies a heart made of ground but the humans will give no love." -America
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 6:13:25 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

I don't really know why gargoyle DNA would be all that different from the DNA of any other member of the Animal Kingdom.

Has anybody else noticed that Jonny Modlin posts a question about Season 2 every 2 weeks? I wonder if he's actually a spambot.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 5:45:52 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Anybody else notice that slg's website still hasn't set a release date for any of their Disney comics due out this month? Also, the slg blog has failed to mention the release of any Disney comics this month? I'm wondering because if slg is behind on releasing the other Disney comics, I'm concerned it might lead to delays in releases of gargoyles.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 5:14:53 pm EDT from 71.30.134.194

I've added a captcha form to Ask Greg to help put an end to the spam. If it creates problems for people please let me know.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 3:07:11 pm EDT from 207.206.247.223

Wings> Before we get too deep into discussing how gargoyles might have evolved and what's possible and not possible, keep in mind that we're talking about a species with the ability to change into an organic, stone-like subtance based on the time time of day. And so far as I know, only the practice of hibernation in the real world even comes close to that.

Gargoyles have a third set of limbs. Whether they're "true" limbs or not I don't know. Keep in mind we are still learning about DNA and we know nothing about what unique qualities gargoyle DNA may have. Maybe in addition to the adaptation that allows them to turn to orgnaic stone during the day, they have some kind of deal that allowed the to develop a third set of limbs without destroying the spine and dgestive system in the process. I'm not well schooled in genetics, so I defer to VA's knowledge on the subject. But in cases like this, you do have to kind of work backwards. No one was really thinking this far ahead when the gargs were first being designed (though dinosaur ancestry was one possible explanantion of gargoyle origins that was tossed around early on). So as fans, we have to accept that gargoyles are the way they are and figure out how it is that they can be that way and have it make sense with what we know.

Speaking from a purely artistic design perspective though, gargoyles have a third set of limbs that resemble arms with very, very long fingers in construction. You have the limb itself, and "elbow" joint, a set of long digits which, on gargoyles with Goliath's wing construction, divide the wing into sections, and a shorter "thumb" digit on top. Gargoyles like Brooklyn and Demona have unsegmented wings because their digits are all on top forming a tiny "wing hand", except for the one that define the edge of the wing. From what Greg has said on "Ask Greg" in the past, the common ancestor of the modern gargates probably had six limbs as well. I recall Greg theorizing that if you x-rayed Bronx (and good luck with that), you'd probably find the vestigial remnants of that third limb set, too small to be outwardly noticable, but still there.
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 1:35:18 pm EDT from 209.6.214.45

Todd - The way I phrased my question about Princess Elena's parentage will not get it kicked out, right?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 1:24:11 pm EDT from 71.30.134.194

Sorry for the double post. I also wanted to say that despite the feather-like coverings, the London gargoyles cannot have a bird-like arrangement of bones in their wings. If you look at Lynati's screencaps of them, when they cape their wings the lower part bends like a towel. This is possible with flexible finger-like extensions, but not with a bird's hand which is fused into a single very stiff bone. Under those feather-like things, London gargoyles must have bones similar to the other gargoyles.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 12:09:14 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Kythera > To evolve a new set of arms, and animal has to have a mutation on the HOX genes which govern limb development. Unfortunately, any gross change in HOX genes also destroys the spine and digestive system. That is why six-legged mutant frogs inevitably have digestive system problems and generally die or are sickly.

Fin-like wings can evolve into bat-like wings simply by the segments closer to the body fusing together, while the distal segments further out remain separate, resembling fingers. The degree of fusion differs from gargoyle to gargoyle, so that you have some with very bat-like wings (Goliath) and others such as Gabriel who have a "finger" growing from the "elbow" where it could not possibly grow on a bat's wing. One of the Wyvern gargoyles in Awakening had completely fin-like wing that look exactly like a Dimetrodon's sail, while Desdemona had a lower "finger" on each wing that grew directly from the back, making it look like she had butterfly wings. One of the Avalon gargoyles (the green one with all the spikes) also has completely weird wings with fin-like bones nothing like a bat's wing, similar to Gabriel but with multiple "fingers" branching from near the "elbow". Another Avalon gargoyle appears to have two separate "elbows" on his wings. None of this is possible with an arm/wrist/hand structure.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 12:04:59 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

David> Nice picture! Great work!
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 12:00:31 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Vaevictis Asmadi--Even though we're dealing with the fantasy/scifi genre to begin with, where the laws of nature as we know them tend to get suspended, bent, or broken with some regularity...

Think about it. Really. What seems more plausible?

For whatever reason, gargoyles had the need to go from bi- or quadropedal locomotion into a six-limbed creature with wings that glides, so an already highly specialized, intrictae and altogether delicate set of bones GROWS EXTENSIONS that evolve into ANOTHER highly specalized, very intricate PAIR of limbs that resemble a modified pair of pre-existing limbs, with matching or equivalent muscles, ligaments, bones, tendons simmilar to those pre-existing limbs, and large flaps of skin.

OR

Somehow, in the Gargoyles universe (where all things are true), there IS a possiblity for six-limbed vertebrates, and in the case of Gargoyles, one of these pairs of limbs was suitable for evolution in to into wings to meet their need for the specialization of gliding.

Occam's Razor, anyone?

Evolution works with what's there. The biological impracticality of bat-like or bird-like wings developing from *extensions of the SPINE* seems to me of Biblical proportions.

HOWEVER... a form of wing that IS developed from extensions of the spine isn't all that farfetched, either. Only you'd wind up with a pair of wings that resemble Dimetrodon sails or fish fins. And that's fine. It just doesn't seem like a plausible explanation for the bat and bird type wings we've seen on the majority of gargoyles.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 11:22:55 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

this is great, i might do an animation with the cape wrapped over his shoulders but none the less, these conversations are helping.
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 11:10:48 am EDT from 72.208.110.73

Kythera >> Remember that gargoyles are purely natural animals that (have to be able to have) evolved from vertebrates. It is utterly impossible for a vertebrate to have four arms. The wings have evolved to resemble bat wings probably because it is a good way to build wings - it provides a very flexible and controllable surface with considerable support of the membrane. They can NOT be actual arms. It is impossible, unless gargoyles are magical creatures.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:46:24 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

And yes, the spam in AG, even though it's contained, it's starting to piss me off a bit. I'll setup a CAPTCHA for AG, but that might have to wait until after the con.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:24:08 am EDT from 207.206.247.205

Watch Awakenings on the DVD with audio commentary and Greg talks about the wings folding into a cape and the reasons for it. It was presented to as a stylistic choice which Greg was at first against. I'd bet part of the reason against it was it'd be compared to Batman, which was a concern as Gargoyles was being developed. On the DVD Frank Paur mentions it's also an animation cheat as a sort of afterthought. Greg Guler probably came up with it for the specific purpose of an animation cheat, but presented the idea as a style choice instead of a cheat to win the bosses over.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 10:22:29 am EDT from 207.206.247.205

The queue's opened up again - and three of the four questions were spam. *sigh*
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 8:33:21 am EDT from 4.244.212.170

I remember Greg Guler talking about the caping of the wings, too. It makes the animation easier when you don't have wings filling half the frame. Incidentally, everyone having only four fingers on each hand is an artistic cheat, too.

2 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 7:56:53 am EDT from 65.43.180.75

front page of the first comic of the gargoyles
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 6:27:51 am EDT from 72.208.110.73

well i used that front page for the wing design, i did do research on bats before i posted the last image but im trying to go off of the cartoon. I might go and change the wings to represent a bats wing.
And I cant make it to the gathering but if someone could ask, i will have to paint the skin for him, i dont want him to look cartoony , so if people can get some suggestions to what animals skin or maybe even human, to use to add detail.
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 6:26:57 am EDT from 72.208.110.73

Garg wings> I'll say that garg wings have, for the most part, mirrored bat wings in structure. The exception being the way the wings fold to cape (I recall it being mentioned as an artistic cheat at the last Gathering, but I'm pretty sure it was in the art panel). I would suggest following a bat wing's design, namely the fingers. A google search will give you some good sources. Check out this one: http://science.howstuffworks.com/bat1.htm

In other news, I'll begin my trip up to Pigeon Forge tomorrow, taking it in two parts. I'll see you guys there!
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Jun 20, 2007 12:32:42 am EDT from 66.168.218.251

Vaevictis Asmadi--I really, REALLY have to disagree. The fundamental, most basic structure of gargoyle wings still resembles hands/arms, and since yes, gargoyles already have a set of hands, their wings essentially give gargoyles a third set of limbs. Even Lexington's wing-arms still have the characteristic "shoulder", "elbow" and "wrist." Most of the wing types we've seen are variants of this (shoulder/elbow/wrist/fingers), with some "fingers" fused, extra fingers, elbow spurs, elongated elbow spurs, etc. They behave oddly in animation sometimes, but I mostly chalk that up to artistic liscence and shortcuts.

No matter how you slice it, though, the way David has modeled Goliath's wing fingers connecting at the "wrist" just looks wrong, and I think going back to the hand model will help him figure out how to connect them in a way that at least looks more natural and believable. And that's what it comes down to in drawing or modeling non-existant, mythical creatures--making them at least APPEAR convincing and believable... And David's rendering loses its believablity around the wing joints (for me, anyway). I mean this as respectfully and constructively as possible.

Incisivis--I think it was Greg Guler who mentioned it at a Gathering (I can't recall exactly WHERE I heard or read this, but I KNOW I got it from an official voice somewhere. Can anyone corroborate?), but gargoyles being able to "cape" their wings is PURELY an artistic cheat. There's a whole lot less of Goliath or Hudosn to draw when their wings are folded around their shoulders. If you get technical with it, their wings would need a second elbow in order to fold over and around their shoulders the way we've seen.

I've been drawing gargoyles for what... twelve years, now? I like to think I've put quite a bit of thought into how they fit together from an artistic standpoint. ^_^;
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 11:05:33 pm EDT from 76.170.207.129

david bailey: damn!! very good job!!
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 10:36:10 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

*still here*

Vaevictus, your theory about the nature of gargoyle wings, even though it's just a one-off, interests me because I've given the idea some thought, and done studies on flight for another project. Just starting off.

See, gargoyle wings in the animation behave really, really oddly. Granted, we don't have winged humanoids in the real world to compare them to, but the wings are held high above the head (except for Sora, oddly), when it seems like they should be folded lower. The wings also appear to have a rigid "arm" and an extremely flexible outermost rib, that behaves almost like it's made of cloth. Finally, there's the caping/shoulder gripping, which doesn't need to be explained; it also requires the wing-arm to go completely limp. I'm at least considering them being boneless because of this strange flexibility.

Maybe someone with more research into flight can straighten me out on what's weird and what's not, but it's just something I've noticed.

I'm stuck between just thinking "it's only a cartoon" to wondering if there's some basis to that.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 10:18:17 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

3 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 7:48:41 pm EDT from 65.43.180.75

for the details on the body, the abs and chest, i was going off of the comics.
Im wanting to make a small video game level of the first episode. When the vikings attacked the castle.
So if anyone wants to join me, please do.
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 7:25:32 pm EDT from 72.208.110.73

thanks for the comments, im working on his cloth so he isnt naked.
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 6:15:15 pm EDT from 72.208.110.73

Off-topic> Vid The Kid and I are leaving for Pigeon Forge in the morning. See you guys at the Gathering.

*waves and leaves*
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 6:11:57 pm EDT from 69.95.28.115

It looks good.

Bat wings may be hands, but gargoyle wings aren't, because they already have hands. Gargoyle wings must have evolved from some other body part -- I vote for cartilaginous bits of the spine.

Also, don't feel constrained to give him the same chest and ab muscles as a human. Gargoyles aren't primates or any other kind of mammal, so they don't need to have the same muscles.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 5:37:06 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Oh my goodness! Goliath is naked!

And hairless...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 5:03:44 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

*chirp chirp chirp*
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 4:42:44 pm EDT from 69.54.209.46

david bailey-- Not bad! Check the anatomy on the wings, though...especially how the wing "fingers" connect at the "wrists." Wings are fundamentally very large, elongated hands. ^_^
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 11:11:20 am EDT from 76.170.207.129

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/spawn85027/funfun.jpg
david bailey - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
3c1a8
posted @ Tue, Jun 19, 2007 8:01:26 am EDT from 72.208.110.73

If I offended anyone last week, I wholeheartedly apologize. I didn't mean to make anyone feel insignificant or small. I know how it feels to be discriminated against for things I can and can not control. I hope you can all find it in your heart to someday forgive me.

BTW, "God is dead" is a famous Friedrich Nietzsche quote. It symbolizes a movement away from God and towards humanism and science for inspiration and answers. (Not my words, just cut and pasted it from another site.)
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 10:49:38 pm EDT from 71.181.183.94

Ashana: sweet! i'll be picking up a copy next month.
Gorebash
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 10:49:19 pm EDT from 71.243.2.74

Gorebash: http://www.michaelreaves.com/books.htm The Michael Reaves of 'Interworld' is indeed the Michael Reaves of 'Gargoyles.' Oooh baby, Neil Gaiman and Michael Reaves. Thanks for the tip on this one!
Ashana
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 8:15:53 pm EDT from 72.226.198.188

VAEVICTIS - I'd advocate starting with the sort of Arthurian works that you'd find in the 398.2 section of the library (such as Bulfinch's "Age of Chivalry", since that's been brought up) before reading Arthurian fiction like "The Mists of Avalon" or Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy. The fictional works often take liberties with the traditional story for various reasons.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 8:13:59 pm EDT from 4.244.213.228

I think it is, but can anyone out there confirm that the Michael Reaves discussed in this article (http://geeksofdoom.com/2007/06/17/dreamworks-animation-picks-up-interworld/) working with Neil Gaiman is the very same that worked on Gargoyles (and was with us at the con last year!)?
Gorebash
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 7:26:00 pm EDT from 71.243.2.74

Phil> Anything's possible with Greg W.

I'll have a highly detailed con journal sometime next week. Look for it.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 7:16:54 pm EDT from 69.95.28.98

Patrick: I was counting on at least you to get that. Thanks.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'Come join with us, please,' Valkyrie maidens cry... above the cold wind to Valhalla..." -Jethro Tull
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 7:05:38 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

I vote for the NY Times saying it.

Seems we have a brown-out here. Either that, or my microwave and every ceiling fan in the house all have died at the same time.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas day, when the New York Times said God is dead, and the war's begun..." - Elton John, "Levon"
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 7:01:28 pm EDT from 65.43.176.234

Demon@ and HoE- And the NYT/'Time' was referencing a very famous line from Nietzsche, talking about (in general at least) the problem of morality (the basis for morality, moral absolutes) in a world that is rejecting morality based on Christianity. IE- why is 'good' good if we're not worrying about what happens when we die?

etc etc...resulting in nihilism/relativism...how can relativism be overcome/are there any absolutes any more?

(I think)
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 6:44:50 pm EDT from 72.177.145.143

Demon@: Oooooo-kay.

<And i dont know who said god is dead, >

It was the New York Times, according to my sources.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'Come join with us, please,' Valkyrie maidens cry... above the cold wind to Valhalla..." -Jethro Tull
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 6:17:22 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

And i dont know who said god is dead, its not. It keeps doing my like miserable.
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 5:17:01 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury: it was late, i have just come back from my brother`s birthday party...i was drunk, im sorry :P. When i re-read the post next morning i coudnt stop laughing :P
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 5:14:45 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

Random thought, since there's nothing else going on in here today...

I was thinking again about Greg's recent revelations
> This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
> June 22nd, 2007 - Lexington continues his journey.
and realized that this vague event occurs on the same day the Gathering begins. That led me to wonder if there could be any kind of connection.
Then I found this comment: "But we do have some fun surprises planned for the Gathering. I'm very excited about this year's Radio Play, for example."
Since Thom Adcox is a regular guest at the Gathering, what are the chances that Greg has produced for this year's radio play an original Lex-centric adventure that takes place in the present day? Sadly, I won't be able to attend again this year, but I'll be eagerly awaiting reports and con-journals.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 4:12:21 pm EDT from 134.215.196.82

I had not thought of Bulfinch! I have not read much of him, I prefer the newer treatments of mythology, but those books don't include Arthur.

At present I've been going through the list of Arthurian characters on Wikipedia and reading their bibliographies. It seems a decent enough source of background information, though not in narrative form.

I have read Tristan and Iseult, my mother has a copy.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 11:24:36 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

Pleasure excuse, for some reason my "l" key was revolting, and I copy and pasted Vaevictus into the wrong area. D'oh!

"Bulfinch's Mythology"
(I've got the one edited and with a commentary by Richard Martin)
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 10:07:51 am EDT from 72.177.145.143

Vaevictus- For a good introduction of background information and the myth itself, I would actually recommend Bufinch's Mythology. It's a wonderfully huge and fun reference book/collection of myths and fables from around the world. The section on Arthu is over 100 pages long, and has fairly detailed explanation/explorations of Arthur, his nights, the age of chivalry in general, even gets into Tristram and Isolde. I haven't spent much time on the section (just glancing through) as I'm still getting through the first 300 pages of basic mythology.

But yes. Great book and reference. If you really want to know mythologies, this is a must have.
SpoonvonstupVaevictus - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 10:01:51 am EDT from 72.177.145.143

Vaevictus> "The Mists of Avalon" is a bit tough to get into. It took me a couple tries to get into it. But once you do, it's worth it. Familiarity with the original material is helpful but not really required. Bradley manages to tell the stories within it as pretty much their own things, with nice embellishments that add to the original legends/stories without changing the fundamentals.

Another book to look into would be Stewart's "The Crystal Cave." It tells the story of Merlin, and, like "Mists", tells things from a new angle that further explains without really changing the core parts. I have not read the rest of the trilogy, so I can't suggest them right now.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 9:41:09 am EDT from 66.168.218.251

VAEVICTIS - "The Mists of Avalon" can be slow going at times (I will confess that it's not one of my favorite Arthurian works, though the fact that I'm male is probably one reason for that :) ), but I don't know if you really need to know that much about the Arthurian cycle to understand it. It's different enough from the familiar legend, however (especially since the focus is really more on Morgaine and her fellow priestesses than on Arthur and his knights), to keep it from being a good introduction.

(I've sometimes wondered if the title of that book was the inspiration for the mists surrounding Avalon during the World Tour period. I should probably ask Greg about that the next time that the queue opens.)

Roger Lancelyn Green's aimed more for children in the 8-12 age group - at least, in that immediate age group, I believe. But you can be older than that and still enjoy him. (And as I said before, if you're getting into King Arthur from watching "Gargoyles", it's particularly appropriate, since it's one of Greg Weisman's personal favorite treatements.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 8:42:11 am EDT from 4.244.211.16

"God is Dead"- Isn't that Nietzsche?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 2:59:02 am EDT from 72.177.145.143

"And i dont like fat and furry people showing off on the beach" LOL, especially the "furry" part.

Just testing: gay
Yup, it is not blocked.

I don't recall ener hearing about someone becoming a guy because of childhood abuse.

brooklyn the red one> Please learn how to use the Shift key. Try typing up your comments in MSWord or something similar and cut and pasting it here.

Harvestor re: "God is dead"> Wasn't that the cover story of an old Time magazine?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Flame of the Alpen Rose Symphonic Collection
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 2:32:17 am EDT from 63.20.75.144

@Vaevictis- I guess being Greg W. helps. So it's a pre-Gathering log, still exciting!
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 1:25:31 am EDT from 72.177.145.143

OK... how can you post a Gathering journal before the actual Gathering? I don't understand.

Lex >> He goes into business with Xanatos and they create Lexington-Xanatos Enterprises, which eventually churns out the LXM robot appliances. Probably a conglomerate that makes lots of stuff, like Xanatos Enterprises. Maybe with a focus on high-technology stuff.

Anyway, thank you guys for the advice about books. I actually have Mists of Avalon but I understand it's a very untraditional? take, and I had the impression it would be difficult without prior knowledge.

Is the RL Green book for children, or by younger readers, do you mean teenagers, or high-schoolers? I mean, I'm not that old myself... :)
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jun 18, 2007 1:16:41 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

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