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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 23, 2008

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Please note, the hotel does not run the shared van service. It is operated by Airport Express, and you have to make arrangements with them at the airport when you arrive.

http://www.airportexpress.com/

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

The hotel also has a shared van service. They have more info about it at their website.

http://www.hotelorrington.com/directions.html

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But see? That's what I'm talking about. Now Venture will send Samson after the rest of us and he'll go totally sickhouse on our asses! I like my ass, gentlemen." -The Monarch.

I know it's a given that advertising would sell more, but someone made a statement like it wouldn't help at all. It most certainly WOULD.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

In case anyone needed to know how to get to the Gathering using public transportation...

Here you are from O'hare to Evanston.

First way

1. Take the blue line train towards downtown.
2. Get off on the Belmont train stop.
3. Take the Belmont 77 bus east (that's to the lakefront) up until you get to the red line train line which is near Sheffield.
4. Take the red line towards Howard (the end of the line) and then transfer onto the Purple line. Take the Purple line towards Linden and then get off on Davis.
5. The Hotel Orrington is about three blocks away. Walk down the steps and out of the station hang a left until you hit Church Street. Hang a right on Church Street and you should hit Orrington Ave. Take a left on Orrington Ave and then you should be right there at the Hotel Orrington.

Second Way

This may or may not be faster if you are arriving during morning rush hour.

1. Take the blue line train towards downtown.
2. Get off on Clark and Lake to transfer onto the Purple line. (The Purple Line only services downtown Chicago during 9 am-6pm weekdays).

*Note: If you arrive after 6 pm on a weekday, take the blue line towards downtown. Get off on Jackson. Transfer over to the red line from Jackson (this is free). Take this towards Howard. Get off on Howard and then you transfer over to the Purple line toward Linden. Repeat step 5.

3. Take the purple line towards Linden. Get off on Davis and repeat step 5. in the First Way.

Towards Midway.

I was lazy and used the RTA trip planner for this one.

1. Take CTA ORANGE LINE TRAIN (ORANGE LINE - CLOCKWISE) get off on Clark and Lake or Washington.

2.Depending on whether you arrive at this station during rush hour or not, I'd advise you use the Purple line if you can (Purple line is serviceable during 9am-6pm). Take the purple line towards Linden but get off on Davis. From there it's a short walk to the Hotel Orrington.

Alternate if you arrive AFTER 6pm.

1. Take the Orange Line to State and Lake. Transfer over to the Red Line.
2. Take the Red Line towards Howard.
3. At the Howard Station transfer over to the Purple Line towards Linden.
4. Get off on Davis and the Hotel Orrington is a short walk away.

Here are maps of Evanston
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=evanston,+Illinois&ie=UTF8&ll=42.059681,-87.686605&spn=0.013828,0.026608&z=15
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=davis+purple+line+stop&daddr=1710+Orrington+Ave&sll=42.067136,-87.686691&sspn=0.110613,0.21286&ie=UTF8&z=18

You get off on the Davis Purple Line Station go north on Benson (hang a left from the train station). Turn right at Church St till you hit Orrington Ave. From there you just turn left and the Hotel Orrington is right there.

There are also free trolleys at this time that service the downtown area and can take you to many of the museums and tourist sites.

http://egov.cityofchicago.org/city/webportal/portalDeptCategoryAction.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@0314313474.1214185724@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccfadeehefimficefecelldffhdfho.0&deptCategoryOID=-536896557&contentType=COC_EDITORIAL&topChannelName=Dept&entityName=Transportation&deptMainCategoryOID=-536896085

Apologies in advance if the formatting of the links gets screwed up.

Doppleganger - [erodri52000 at yahoo dot com]

Next weekend, narly EVERYONE will be "the one in a Gargoyles shirt." ;)

5 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

@Matt> I'll be here, making conversation and eagerly awaiting Gathering reports.

@>Battle Beast> Yes, that's kind of a given point, but they didn't, so it doesn't really matter. As everyone has been saying for years and years and years, there's no use saying "what if" if we want to change the future. Live for this moment and the next; that's was kind of the point of my page and a half post.

@Ozzie> Well, that's a relief. I know that forcing a meme is a good way to get banished to Internet Purgatory, etc etc etc. That comment was an extreme statement, meant to provoke laughter or action. This is a great example of how effective my attempts at humor are. Thanks for proving my point. ^_^

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

*sigh*

So, the Gathering is this week. Pretty cool, huh? Who is gonna keep the Comment Room home fires burning? Who will I see there?

By the way, there are many of you I have yet to meet. Please approach me and say hi this weekend if you see me. Here is what I look like: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/User:Matt and I'll have a badge that says "Matt". I'll also be the one in a Gargoyles t-shirt. : )

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

YOu know what? If Disney DID pony up and spend some cash advertising the DVDs, we SELL A LOT MORE than we havbe. Guaranteed.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

You can also be on the look out for things like Springkink on Livejournal. Place some prompts, write some prompts, be present.
Anonymous - [<---Springkink]

"Heck, I might even risk horrific mental scarring by going to one of the *chans and forcing a Gargoyles meme; anything to get attention."

That would be kind of meaningless. They already bring Gargoyles up on their own every now and then. Usually to talk about Demona or Elisa being hot. Trying to force a meme tends to have the opposite of the desired effect. Heck 4chan's comic and cartoon board is where I found that Amazon link.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

On Fandom participation> I, for one, think YouTube and other similar media sharing sites are being seriously under used by the fandom. Let me give an example. On YT, there is a user, 10esas, who has posted (I think?) every episode of Gargoyles, including Season 3. This, clearly, is not legal. However, 10esas also has about 50 gargoyles music videos on her account.
I definitely do not want to encourage bootlegging Gargoyles on YouTube (it's not legal, and its usefulness as advertising is questionable in the long run, since this whole practice hasn't been going for... well... long enough of a run). Her account, however, has probably brought more people back to the fandom (either by introduction or reintroduction) than the accounts of 10 of us other gargoyles fans combined. No, episodes are not legal, but yes, the best way to advertise a product is to show that product.

In effect, I believe that the fandom could always make better use of the internet and the opportunity for connections that it provides. If you can afford internet and if it doesn't strike you as immoral, go and get yourselves YT or livevideo or whatever it may be accounts. Find Gargoyles material and comment on it, favorite it, show it off to other fandoms. Find other material and do the same. I know that I find most of the videos I'm interested in by browsing chains of favorites/subscriptions/commenters. Extensive cross-referencing will only increase our chances of getting hits.
Heck, that's how I re-found the Gargoyles fandom after being inactive and distant for about five years. Originally, I caught a few episodes on ToonDisney in about 1999/2000. The interest deepened significantly when I found fanart and fanfiction online. That was almost a decade ago, and I lost interest when I became busy with school work. Three years ago, however, I found my second obsession (Teen Titans). I became active in multiple internet communities and began to edit videos; in one of those communities, I ran into Siren. She had a signature advertising the DVD's, and that was my second wake up call to Gargoyles. I contacted her, I watched her videos, I was inspired to make my own. I realized that DVD's existed (I had had no idea), and eagerly purchased them. Once I had my footage and my videos, I sought out a place to share them and to discuss the series, and eventually discovered s8, the Gathering, and (miracle of miracles!) the comic series.
If not for Siren's active participation in the Teen Titans fandom, I don't know how long it would have taken me to find and take advantage of all of these things. I'm not suggesting everyone go out and flood other fandoms (this has certainly been suggested before). What I want to encourage everyone to do is to enjoy Gargoyles to the fullest. If you've got the DVD's, and you've got a PC that's less than five years old, and you've got a CD of music you like, then you have everything you need to go ahead and try and make a music video. What harm could it do? Maybe you'll like it! Make hilarious icons, and go ahead and use those in forums and on livejournal (or whatever your drug of choice may be).

Actually, that brings me to a related thing that's been puzzling me. In every other fandom I've been in or experienced (live action, American animation, Disney, and anime alike) there has been a thriving graphics making community. Is there anything like that in the Gargoyles world? If so, where is it/who are they? (Why aren't gargoyles graphics popping up willy nilly all over every corner of the internet?) If not, why not? Icons have definitely been one of the things that have reminded me of shows or movies that I hadn't remembered in years, and then I was forced to look them up/rewatch them/purchase DVD's.

What I mean is this: we have so many tools at our disposal to spread "the thing itself" across the internet, to share our enjoyment of this great show. I encourage everyone with an interest to do so; to share and, more importantly, to make connections within the fandom and across into other fandoms. Once again, cross-referncing/listing can only increase our exposure.

I'll admit, I have not been doing everything I can on this front. In the past, I've actually gone through all of the Gargoyles videos on YouTube on three seperate occasions, searching for videos to add to the Gargoyles YT group page and trying to encourage video makers to join the Gargoyles Music Video Database. This sounds like a lot if you just say it, but it's really only been a job half done. What good is it if I view all of these videos but don't make a comment on every single one of them, reminding people about the DVD's and the comics? What good is it if I forget to put these reminders in the descriptions of all of my *own* GMV's? I've got 10 days until I go to MN for an intensive internship; I plan on devoting a little bit of everyday to working through every Gargoyles YT video I can find and commenting (so don't be suprised if you hear from me in a few days). I respect and appreciate all of you that have already been doing so, and I'll use discretion so as not to appear obnoxious (a few reminder comments are great, but I definitely wouldn't want to get ridiculous with those videos that are already well informed/informing).
To those of you who have Gargoyles footage on YT, livevideo, putfile, whatever, I encourage you to make sure your descriptions are as informative as possible; plus, it'll save you from having to hear from me. ;p

One particular element that I feel would be helpful in spreading awareness of Gargoyles is parody/comedy work (in multimedia realms in particular- we've got great art/fanfiction already and I don't feel like it needs too much more encouragement to keep being awesome). Laughter is one of the most effective ways to reach people, and Gargoyles is full of simply hilarious moments and even more opportunities for comedic exploitation. I would do more on this front myself, but I've got to admit, I'm just not a funny person. I can match Gargoyles footage with comedians' routines until the cows come home, but I know that I'm not going to be the person who comes up with a truly brilliant piece of comedy.

Heck, I might even risk horrific mental scarring by going to one of the *chans and forcing a Gargoyles meme; anything to get attention.

Bottom line, the best way to spread the word about Gargoyles is to enjoy the show as much as possible. If you do, there's no way Gargoyles can avoid making an appearance in your other interests. That can only be beneficial for Gargoyles, since there's no way we can spread the word if we sit around and talk to ourselves.

Oh, and one more thing: think positively people!

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

Purplegoldfish> Let me preface my comment with this statement:

If you can't afford the comics or the DVDs or the Gathering, no one's saying you should spend your money on them anyway. I would never ask or expect anyone to spend beyond their means for the sake of Gargoyles.

That's not what this is about. It's about people who are ABLE, who (in my opinion) may not be doing their part as a fan. If someone says that they are going to wait for a trade paperback and not buy the individual issues, or they're going to wait for the entire series to be released on DVD before they buy any of it, then they aren't aware of the fact that the new DVD release is dependent on the previous sales, and a comics longevity is based on individual issue sales, and I personally believe they aren't doing their part in honoring this world that we've all grown to love and helping to ensure its continued success.

It's up to us to do the best we are able to do if we want to keep Gargoyles in our lives.

Ricky

Perhaps each year we can have a collection of a few dollars from each attendee and then offer free travel and/or hotel expenses for the following year's Gathering for one outstanding fan who could not otherwise make it. We could run it something like a scholarship or something.

That is just a thought of course.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

"Want to make me twitch and have irrational thoughts about sending Chuck Norris to deliver a boot to the head? Say any one of the three following things:"

1) "I'll buy the first two "Gargoyles" box sets when the third one comes out."
2) "I'll go to the Gathering some day, but not this year."
3) "I'll just wait for the trade paperback."


Okay, I for one am getting ticked off when people bitch about people who say they can't go to the Gathering. The comics and DVDs are one thing, but I'm sorry I just can't go flying halfway across the country every year for a convention. I can't afford it (especially with the high gas prices nowadays), and I Hate it when people make me feel like a jerk cause I'm poor. If you guys want to dish out the money for my plane ticket, then I'm there-because I really do want to go, and no, I don't know when I can. But I think it's better when people say they are planning to go someday instead of saying they're never going to go at all. At least they are showing interest in it and there's a chance they will go in the future.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]

Greg> I realized I actually mispoke right after finishing that post because I actually do have Clerks and I missed that glancing over the list. I've seen The Crow, Pulp Fiction, and my friends forced me to sit through Princess Mononoke. I don't hate the Crow or Pulp Fiction but I didn't consider them good enough to bother adding to my collection. I'm more interested in animation then live action in most cases. That's why the majority of my hundreds of DVDs are either anime or cartoons(Mostly from the 80s and 90s).

As for the discussion of buying stuff to ensure the rest gets released. I've done that all along. I have every issue of Gargoyles including the issue that had an error in it along with a corrected copy. I had both box sets preordered months in advance and have since bought them as presents for friends who I know wouldn't buy it themselves. I finally downloaded the remainder of the episodes about a year ago, but the minute they have a retail release those will be deleted off my harddrive. I do have to say however after watching Season 3 for the first time, my god, no wonder everyone hates it so much.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

I completely agree with Patrick.

If you want the third DVD set, buy the first two. If you want more comics, don't wait for the trade, buy the individual issues.

All these things need to be supported by us, the fans, which obviously means we have to pay for them. I have the DVDs, I have at least 2 of each individual issue so far (Gargoyles and Bad Guys) and I bought 4 of the TPB. I'm not saying everyone should be as excessive as me, but I'm just trying to illustrate my point; I want more DVDs, I want to do my best to make sure that these stories to continue. If people wait for things, and no one buys this stuff, why would they keep making it...

For having such an intense fan base, that kept Gargoyles alive for over 10 years now...quite frankly I'm surprised and incredibly disappointed in the fact that the comic sales have been slowly decreasing and that the 3rd DVD set may not be released.

It's just really sad.

Ricky

There's personal opinions being expressed in an internet forum? NO WAI! :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I purchased the box sets during the day of release and at least get more than one copy of the comic (Gargoyles and Bad Guys) and the trade. Conventions on the other hand aren't my thing. Heck, my presence at a Gargoyles convention would be more of a problem than it would be helpful.
Antiyonder

Uh, we are all on the same side here. And this argument is getting pretty off topic and silly. You are leaving the realm of facts and instead are debating personal opinions.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Want to make me twitch and have irrational thoughts about sending Chuck Norris to deliver a boot to the head? Say any one of the three following things:

1) "I'll buy the first two "Gargoyles" box sets when the third one comes out."
2) "I'll go to the Gathering some day, but not this year."
3) "I'll just wait for the trade paperback."

It's not enough to sit there and say "I want more of that." People have to open their wallets and make some effort for DVDs and conventions and comic books to continue to happen.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Just to be both clear and fair, while I don't think Disney is all that worried about alienating the "Gargoyles" fanbase, I do think would have cause for concern if what happened with the "Gargoyles" DVD release became a more frequent occurrence. If it;s just one TV series here and there that gets an incomplete DVD release, it's probably not going to hurt them. But if it happens more frequently or on some higher profile properties, Disney could start to get a bad reputation. We already know that a couple of people at least are holding off on buying at least the first half of Season Two until the whole thing comes out. So Disney could potentially end up with people waiting on purchasing much higher profile shows until the whole thing comes out on DVD or passing on Disney's TV DVDs altogether for fear that they'll just be purchasing series that will never be finished.

I don't think it's in Disney's best interests to try to keep everyone happy, but it is in their best interests to try to avoid making too many people angry.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Ozzie> Really, which two? Some are crap, but a lot of those are great movies, and you're really missing out.

And as for the release schedule. Keep in mind, this was an experiment. They never released an animated series season set like that. They wanted to gauge sales, see if it was worthwhile. Hell, I don't know if season one sold well enough to make the second one a high priority. But they still brought it out, and they still packed it with extras. It takes time to put out a product, these things aren't made by magic elves you know.

And finally, as Greg Weisman himself said:

"You're preaching to the converted, but there is an element of naivete here. Marketing costs money. Disney has LITTLE evidence that they can make much money off of Gargoyles relative to what they could make off of, say, Power Rangers. So they are less inclined to spend the FINITE amount of money they have to promote a product which will without a doubt be profitable, but which without a doubt won't be AS profitable as others they might release. That's called "Opportunity cost".

Gargoyles was a good bet for them, when (a) it seemed that the fans would do all the marketing work for them... making the release very inexpensive and (b) the sales seemed relatively high... making the profit margin relatively high. But when the fans do NOT do the marketing for them and when the sales aren't high, then Gargoyles seems like less the good bet.

Again, I'm not saying that the marketing SHOULD be the fans responsibility. I'm simply saying that if the fans do not take responsibility, then no one will.

Companies don't have obsessions. People do. Individuals run companies, which is why as companies have employee turnover, the character of the place and the opportunites shit and alter. But comparing Peter David with "DISNEY" is truly comparing apples and ... I don't know... steam engines.

So in the end, yours is NOT a "constructive complaint ". (Though it's not a hate-filled rant either.) It's just a complaint . Period. And you're entitled to complain. Believe me. But now that you've complained, the question is both individually and collectively, what's your NEXT move? Just more complaining? Or do you want to find a new way to help us SPREAD THE WORD?"

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.

Greg B. I'm not gonna argue with you but I just wanna point out that it's kind of ironic that I've only seen 2 of those movies you listed and I never thought they were worth purchasing. Aside from Gargoyles and Darkwing Duck, the only Disney DVDs I own are the Aladdin movies and Pirates of the Carribean.

Aside from advertising, I think Disney's ever so intelligent idea to release box sets a year apart was the main problem. Seriously it makes no sense to do that. For an ongoing show it makes sense, you can't release on DVD what hasn't aired yet. But with a show that ended years ago? People probably stumbled upon Gargoyles by complete chance. That's how I found out about the DVDs. I kept typing Gargoyles into the Amazon search engine every so often because I didn't know about tvshowsondvd.com yet. What probably happened is that people have a short attention span. People probably kept looking for info on when the next box set was going to be released, then after about 6 months gave up and forgot about it.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Okay, then my point earlier about some major studios licensing season sets that they don't feel are worth continuing to smaller companies to release is more valid. If Disney doesn't feel Gargoyles season 2, Volume 2 is worth putting out, there's likely a studio out there that does - and maybe - JUST maybe Disney would let go of the reins enough to allow it to happen, knowing the fan bas we have-and the Trek connection - plus the comics. I don't see why it's an angle we shouldn't explore. Letters & Emails to Disney suggesting that idea. It might not do any good - but hwat could it hurt? Another way to spread the word...or not. It's up to you.
Wingless

HofEyes> HAHAHA!!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Holy shit, Jonny's using punctuation. Oh, wait. He's probably just copying and pasting. So the seventh seal is probably still intact.

Is advertising a good thing? Yes. Is it up to the owner of the product whether or not they make print or TV ads? Yes. Did Disney choose to advertise? No. Sucks, but that's life. I'd say a dead horse is being beaten, here. I would say stop, but the small reptilian knot at the base of my spine feeds off senseless violence. So pass the aluminum bat.

Harvester of Eyes
"Truly, you do not understand the depth of the pain you are inviting." -Akimi ("Shadowrun")

One thing that I think we should keep in mind here. Disney is under absolutely no obligation to release the rest of Gargoyles on DVD. Disney is a business first and foremost, that means it's first obligation is to turn a healthy profit, ideally in the process of creating some top quality entertainment.

Now we can blame the alleged poor performance of the DVDs on lack of advertising or mismanagement and those are valid concerns. But the bottom line is this, if Disney doesn't feel that more DVDs are going to turn a profit, then they have no incentive to pursue that avenue and trow away hard earned money just to please a couple hundred internet fans.

Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

Jonny,

Thank you for your email regarding GARGOYLES. We value your interest in Walt Disney Home Entertainment.

At this time, we do not have a DVD release date for GARGOYLES: SEASON 2, VOLUME 2. We will forward your request for release to our Marketing Department for consideration.

Please visit our website at www.disneydvd.com for a list of titles that are currently available and to check for new DVD announcements from Walt Disney Home Entertainment.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to reply to this email. You may also contact us at 800 723-4763 (Canada: 888 877-2843), Monday 9:30-7:30 and Tuesday through Friday 9:30-6:30 CST.

Sincerely,

Walt Disney Studio Home Entertainment Consumer Relations

US and Canada

Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]
Jonny Modlin

Wingless> Yes, we know what you're saying. You keep whining about it over and over and over again. And again, I ask, who the hell are you trying to convince? You will find there is no one in here who will disagree that it should have been advertised.

But, it wasn't. We knew this going in. So, my question to you remains, what are you going to do about it? Help spread the word, or sit at your computer whining about Disney again and again and again?

So, as Greg said back in March, spread the word. Or don't.

But there is this notion out there that Disney is this giant that can do whatever they want. But, I've only been in Hollywood for ten months, studying film and learning the business. I can already tell you that that's not true. It's not true with any of the major studios, not just Disney. They most definitely can't and don't do anything they want.

Demonskrye> <<Greg Weisman told Disney that they didn't need to advertise because there was a rabid fanbase for the show and they would advertise it by word of mouth. Now I do wish that we had been told that this was the case earlier on>>

We were told this earlier on. We were told this from the get-go. And the fans did come out and do it... for the first season DVD. And, as I recall correctly, when Season Two, Volume One was announced, because of the "Volume One," a lot of fans thought that Volume two was "guaranteed." I remember a lot of people saying that. Never mind that Greg was standing in the pulpit saying that nothing was guaranteed. He warned us. A few of us listened, but most didn't.

When season one was announced, we did a great job. I couldn't go anywhere on the internet without seeing someone spreading the word. Be it a banner in a message board sig, or a post talking about it. I cannot say the same for Season Two, Volume One. We got complacent.

At least, that's the way I remember it.

OZZIE <<I started to type along rant. But realized how pointless it was. I see your points, but I still think Stockholders do a terrible job of running a business>>

Ozzie, take a basic business course and then get back to me.

<<If Disney screws me on Darkwing Duck as well, I can guarantee that I'm not going to buy anything else they release.>>

So, you're not going to go see any other movie that Touchstone or Miramax releases? You do realize that every time you rent or buy a Tarantino movie, or a Scorsese, or a Kevin Smith, that you're buying a Disney product, right?

Here's a list of movies you'll never buy on DVD or rent if you boycott Disney.

Sex, Lies, and Videotape
Reservoir Dogs
The Piano
Clerks
Exotica
The Crow
Pulp Fiction
Halloween: The Curse of Michael Myers
Trainspotting
From Dusk Till Dawn
Jackie Brown
The English Patient
Shakespeare In Love
Princess Mononoke
Good Will Hunting
The Talented Mr. Ripley
Gangs of New York
Chicago
Cold Mountain
Kill Bill
Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
The Aviator
Hero
No Country For Old Men
There Will Be Blood
The Dead Poets Society
Good Morning Vietnam
The Ref
Con Air
Enemy of the State
Gone In Sixty Seconds
Coyote Ugly
The Hand That Rocks the Cradle
Tombstone
Dangerous Minds
Dead Presidents
The Scarlet Letter
Nixon
Evita
G.I. Jane
The Sixth Sense

There are many more. All are Disney movies. So, just saying you might want to think out your boycott a little more.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

I know people want a villain to blame but frankly I think Disney have been quite fair, all told.

The argument always was if they greenlight the DVDs, the fans will buy them. A big take-up from the fanbase and then a steady trickle of people looking the show up on Amazon. It'll be easy money, if only they realise how committed the fanbase is.

And sure enough, we got two great, quality sets with a lot of features. They just didn't shift enough to make it worth their while doing more.

Now we're saying, "no fair, you didn't fork out on advertising!"

But why would they? Point one: advertising for even big budget films is generally a loss-making venture. Their hope is that they can lift the odd flick into the stratosphere and try and recoup money on DVDs, rental, merchandise and television airings down the track. If they're crossing their fingers and muttering when they sign the cheque to plug 'Enchanted', what possible hope do they have for a strong return on a 14 year old dead cartoon?

Objectively speaking, hand on heart, how many more people -- over and above the hardcore fans -- are going to see an advertisement and rush out and buy a set? I suggest: not THAT many.

Best case scenario: they make a modest return over and above the costs of the ad campaign. Worst case scenario: only a few more people buy sets, the rest ignore it and they lose money. Either way it's terrible business decision AND a bad creative one because they've sqaundered an opportunity to push another property, the NEXT great thing that's going to do well and catch the imagination.

Imagine how you'd feel if 'Gargoyles' had been passed over for a DVD release at all because they were pouring money into (say) 'Pepper Ann' collections hardly anyone was buying. Or if Gargoyles in its original run was never given a shot at all because in the ad slots aimed at the show's natural audience they were too busy trying to shift 'The Black Cauldron' on VHS.

I'm positive someday it will be worth their while putting more 'Gargoyles' out. Maybe they'll see steady long-term sales of the first two sets which forces them to reassess the situation. Or technology means they can put the shows out there much more cheaply. Meanwhile... we had our go. Twice. Now it's time to take a ticket and go right to the back of the queue.

If we just take it out on Disney... well, what incentive does that give them? "Greenlight one DVD or we'll never buy another Disney product again!" Why wouldn't they just go and attend to the crowd who WILL buy a lot more Disney stuff if it's marketed right?

Of course, it's frustrating. But at this stage, I'm really more concerned with promoting the comic than the perceived failures of Disney concerning the DVDs.

Indeed, I'm starting to think it would be much better instead of trying to push to get the episodes off youtube, to direct more people to them. Yeah, it's annoying if people watch "Awakening" illegally when they could buy the DVD. But let's face it, the best advert for the product IS the product. The comics is very dense and very grounded in continuity. Why fight with one hand behind our back? Let's say to people: hey, watch this episode. Like it? Watch the next one. Want the rest? Buy the comics. Still enjoying it? Get the DVDs.

Ed

DVD Situation> First off, I do totally agree that Disney strategy of deciding whether or not to release the next part of a series on DVD based on the sales of the previous volume is not a good one. I can see scrapping a series DVD release if sales were absolutely abysmal, but otherwise, I think a company should finish out the series that they start. If you look at the "reviews" for Season 2 Vol 2 on Amazon, someone actually does say that he or she would buy the whole set of DVDs if both season were available. I don't know if this represents the thinking of a huge number of people, but it's disheartening to know that some fans of the series haven't bought the existing DVDs yet.

That being said, we've been over Disney's reasoning for not releasing the second half of Season Two yet. For the most part, companies like Disney do not treat their earnings as one big money pool. There are different budgets allotted for different departments and more specific budgetary alottments in each department, all the way down to specific project budgets. Because Disney is ultimately in the business of making money, they aren't going to look at the profits from something like "Pirates of the Caribbean" and say "Oh good. Now we can use this money to put out some DVDs we don't expect to sell very well." They're going to try their best to sink that money into projects that will make them even more money, like more "Pirates" stuff.

As for keeping people happy, it's exactly like Patrick said. A company has to weigh keeping a group of people happy against the size and purchasing power of that group. Disney can't keep everyone happy. If they release DVDs based solely on the fact that someone somewhere wants to buy it, pretty soon they're putting out a "Shnookums and Meat Funny Cartoon Show" DVD for the seven people who want that and a "Jungle Cubs" DVD for the 2.5 people who want that. Disney has been annually releasing sets of Disney Treasures DVDs collecting old shorts, TV shows, and other material of interest to Disney fans along with archival and other special features. They're limited releases and they don't sell a ton, but Disney probably figures that Mickey and Donald will lure a few parents into picking up a more collector aimed DVD and that there are enough hardcore Disney fans out there to turn a profit and for it to be worth the company's while to make them happy. My suspicion is that "Gargoyles" just doesn't have that large of a base and I know it doesn't have the recognizability factor with the general public that Mickey does.

Wingless, I understand your point and a sympathize, but we've been over why this happened too. Greg Weisman told Disney that they didn't need to advertise because there was a rabid fanbase for the show and they would advertise it by word of mouth. Now I do wish that we had been told that this was the case earlier on; I recall persistent rumors of TV ads that never materialized right up through the release of both Season One and Season Two Vol 1. But spilt milk and all. I agree that it may have been naive of Disney to agree that this could work. But as I understand Greg's version of events, it wasn't a choice between "We can release this DVD with a big advertising blitz and tons of promotion" and "We can do almost no advertising and count on fans to spread the word." It was between "We can release the DVD with nothing beyond a few comic book ads and count on the fans to spread the word" and "We don't release the DVD." I don't know why that was the case. I'm guessing Disney only wanted to budget a certain amount of money and work for the DVD release and advertising wasn't in the cards. Maybe they could have taken the budget from the special features to use for advertising, but maybe it wasn't possible. Maybe it wasn't enough money for even one major ad. I don't know. (Incidentally, at this point I'd be perfectly happy with a bare bones release of Season Two Vol 2 with just a basic unanimated menu and the episodes, were that and option.) But the fact remains: if Disney had been told that they needed to put money into advertising the DVDs, they would not have released them at all and we would have no DVDs instead of two.

What all of this boils down to is that the DVD situation is what it is. It's fine to be frustrated and to point out what Disney could have done or be doing better to a point and I totally understand how frustrating it can be to be trying your best to promote "Gargoyles" and feel like it just isn't making enough of a difference. But we can't change the past and we can't change what Disney is doing right now. All we can do is take what opportunities we're given to show Disney that they can still make the profit that they want with "Gargoyles." If you're really feeling like that's never going to be enough and there's nothing we can do because Disney won't put in an effort on their end, that's OK. It is fine to just read the comics, watch the episodes that are available on DVD and those that aren't on video or DVR or YouTube. Don't feel like you have to fight for "Gargoyles" if all it's going to do is depress you.

Just a side note, I'd appreciate it very much if someone would comment on my discussion on the Amazon Season Two Vol 2 page. The comments I'm getting are making me feel that this was not a worthwhile endeavor.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

It's just as naive to think you can sell a product without ADVERTSING it. Disney does bloody well know how to advertise everything else, How expensive would it be to put out one TV ad that would push the availability of all the Disney TV animated series. They do it with their current live action shows. Why? In order to let people know they're available so they can BUY them. Simple concept. Guess it's a naive concept as well. It drives me crazy you people can't see this. The more people know about something, the more inclined they are to buy it. Our word of mouth is fine-and I know Greg W. and I disagree on this, but He's in the business, I'm a consumer and a fan. He sees things a little differently-that's fine. Word of mouth is only going to do so much, and again we more than do our part here. It would really be nice if some of you would realize who are really the one's falling down on the job here-and that's Disney. Advertising sells. No advertising-no sales. That's how you make money people. Naive indeed.
Wingless

Ozzie - The model that I like that potentially satisfies both the stockholders and us is using a service like video.aol.com. Letting video.aol.com put up the Disney videos seems like a minimal investment to me and splitting the ad revenue would hopefully satisfy the return on investment requirement.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

I'm sure Disney wants to keep happy as many of their customers as possible, but some market segments are larger than others. It's impossible to please everyone all of the time.

6 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I started to type along rant. But realized how pointless it was. I see your points, but I still think Stockholders do a terrible job of running a business. Because to be blunt, yes all business are about making money. However you have to keep your customers happy and stockholders DO NOT care about that. You have to keep your customers happy because if you don't, they will no longer be your customers. If Disney screws me on Darkwing Duck as well, I can guarantee that I'm not going to buy anything else they release.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Wow.... Aren't we all just itching for action on that DVD release... ;) Of course, what I wanted to say has already been said so there's no need to be redundant. As for the whole Amazon thing, I think it's bad business practice to be putting something up with absolutely no information, especially when they don't know anything about the product or even a release date.

Youtube/Nayrusavatar >> I tried to promote support for the series by leaving a comment on her profile. I got one response from a person that had no idea the comics even existed and wanted to know more and where to get them. I replied back with info. I guess I should leave comments on every single episode (while they're still up) and hopefully I'll get more responses...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Umm...yeah...

Five people have submitted comments/question to Ask Greg concerning the Amazon posting, so it looks as though Ask Greg will eventually answer the question (if nothing changes).

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10688
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10705
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10726
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10728
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10734

Then again, the Gathering is only a sneeze and a half away, and I would be surprised if the subject wasn't brought up there.

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

Todd> Thank you very, very much.
AG

Sony can sell PS3s at a loss because the are making BANK through licensing on the games.

Disney is a business, and they want to make as much money on their investments as possible. They *could* invest in a Gargoyles Season 2 Volume 2 DVD release, but they *won't* until they're convinced the return is going to be worth their while. If you can't generate a better return on the money than it's earning by sitting in the bank, you leave it in the bank.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Ozzie - It's about the return on investment that the Stockholders expect. There's lots of projects that Disney could invest in but don't give the expected rate of return. Let's say Disney starts investing in lots of projects that give a lower rate of return. Do you know what the result would be? The stock price would go down. If the stock price goes down because of investing in projects with insufficient rates of return, the shareholders are going to be unhappy. If the shareholders are unhappy, the company's board of directors and CEO aren't going to be happy because of a potential revolt. Yes, that leaves us trapped in the middle. What I think the solution is is either create a website where we can watch episodes online with paid advertising or allow somebody else to do that with Disney getting the residuals from the advertising. That would meet both Disney's interests from getting a return on their investment and our interest in wanting to watch the series.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Ozzie> You are very naive, and I think you have a lot to learn about the real world.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

Patrick, I'd be more inclined to agree if we were talking about a smaller company. But we're talking about Disney. I can't believe they wouldn't have the money to spend to release Gargoyles simply because they invested in something else. Major corporations have way more money available to invest then they probably would ever have a real use for. I mean look at Sony. They've been selling PS3s at a loss since they launched the system and they're not in trouble are they? If they can do that, I don't see why Disney can't release what their fans want when it won't cost more to produce the DVDs then what they're selling them for.

Obviously if Gargoyles was such a money sink, we wouldn't even have the comic now would we? I'm gonna censor what I really want to say about them when I put it this way. Disney is run by a bunch of jerks and I think it's safe to say that Walt would be ashamed if he saw the way his company was currently being run.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Ok, case in point. The Hanna Barbera series I mentioned earlier which have been released by a Canadian studio are "Drak Pack" and "Dinky Dog"(the later part of the "All New Popeye Hour". I only vaguely remember these shows, but you're going to tell me these are going to sell better than Gargoyles? I somehow doubt it - but someone felt that they were worthwhile putting them out. The point I'm making is the major studios are worried about how much they can make, and won't bother if they feel they can't make enough. The smaller studios know that there is a fan base out there, and also put more time and effort into a set - including bonus material where a major studio wouldn't bother. Some of the He-Man & She-Ra reissues are other good examples. Tons of extra - giving the fans what they want. The disney series personally deserve the same kind of treatment, but the studio doesn't seem to think they're worth the time or effort. Again, I'll say it again, ADVERTISING helps as well - something Disney falls flat on every time except for their theatrical releases.
Wingless

I was going to repeat what Patrick just said about why we don't get the release. Disney doesn't think there's enough return on investment to justify releasing Season 2 Volume 2. That's why a lot of older programs aren't released on dvd; the company owning the material doesn't think there's sufficient return on investment to justify the release.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

If you had $100 and a choice between investing Project A that would net you $10 profit or Project B that would net you $50 profit, which would you choose?

That's the same decision process that Disney or any other studio uses for deciding what properties they will promote and what products they will produce, albeit the dollar values are much bigger. Resources are finite, and they're going to follow the money.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I know it's a moot point when Disney is concerned, but over at tvshowsondvd.com - they've recently posted a discussion about some older TV series owned by major studios that have had one or two seasons released, but the majors felt they didn't sell well enough to merit continuing. Since there still is a demand for the series - some cases, the studios have begun to license the titles to smaller companies like Shout Factory for DVD release. I've even seen some Hanna Barbera titles issued by a Canadian only company(lesser known series, mind you-but still).

It would be nice if Disney would be open minded to the idea, but who knows what the future holds.

Wingless

I just wonder how Amazon randomly decides what shows they want to randomly list releases for that have no information backing them. It's not like they list every show to ever exist in their search engine. They don't list anything past Season 1 of Xiaolin Showdown which was the only season released.

Shows that don't get a full release have really been bothering me lately. It's my opinion that when you start something, you finish it. I find it hard to believe Disney lost money by releasing Gargoyles on DVD, they just didn't get the uber wad of cash they wanted. Warner Brothers has done the same thing with Xiaolin Showdown and the last box set of Animaniacs. I don't think this is a good way to conduct business and makes me lose trust in these companies. I mean, next time they start releasing a new series I may not buy it because I don't know if I can trust them to released the whole thing.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Unfortunately, it's pretty much no skin off of Amazon's nose if they put up listings for product that does not actually end up coming out. I don't think the intent is malicious at all; it's purely business. It's not so common with DVDs, but video games at the least will sometimes get announced far in advance. There can be huge production delays that push the game back years from its anticipated release date, if there even was one in the first place. But if there are people who are interested in the product, Amazon wants to know about it. Amazon wants these potential customer to kow that Amazon is aware of this exciting new product and will send you e-mails to keep you up to date on it. So whether it's three months, three years, or three decades before the product actually comes out, as long as that potential customer still has an Amazon account with a valid e-mail address, Amazon will be able to let let him or her know that the product has arrived and is now conveniently orderable from Amazon. And if that never happens? Well, most people will forget about it over time. Or they'll assume that the product was cancelled or delayed indefinitely or some such thing. They probably won't get upset with Amazon because Amazon hasn't charged them money for a preorder and they really have no way of knowing if Amazon put the listing up due to bad or no information.

I don't know why this listing ended up on Amazon now. It may have just been one person there going "Hey, this series only has one volume of Season Two and the internet says there were three seasons. So we should put up listings for Vol.2 and Season Three for when they come out." Obviously no one at customer service actually knows what the deal is; they just have standard responses for when customers ask questions about this kind of listing.

I've started a discussion on the listing for Season 2, Vol. 2 stating that there is currently no independent confirmation that the DVD is coming out and that the best way to ensure that it does is to buy the two existing DVDs and the SLG comic. I would also advise everyone here with an Amazon account to sign up for alerts should the DVD become available. Of course we'll know already if that does happen, but it can't hurt and if enough people ask to be informed when the DVD comes out, it might get back to Disney somehow and show them that there is interest in the second hald of Season Two.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Exactly, which makes me wonder why the page was created in the first place.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini

Anthony Tini> Sounds like a stock responce to me. Which probably means they know nothing.
Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

Greetings from Amazon.com.

I apologize for any inconvenience caused.

I've checked our website for the item and found that this time "Gargoyles - Season Two, Vol. 2" is currently unavailable to us and we're not sure if we'll be able to obtain it in the future. This is the reason why we don't have any further information about this product.

Our editorial staff is constantly gathering more information about out products and will update the product detail page with the information they gather.

Hence, I'd suggest checking our web site from time to time to see if this item is available from us. Once we obtain the item we'll display as much information we can on the product detail page.

You might see an "Order it used" or "Alert me" link. "Order it used" allows you to place a pre-order for the item in case another seller puts a copy up for sale later. "Alert me" allows you to sign up so we can e-mail you when Amazon has copies available for purchase.

You may want to visit our partner site, Internet Movie Database (http://www.imdb.com/) to look for more information about this film.

Again, I apologize for any frustration this situation caused you. Thank you for shopping at Amazon.com.

Please let us know if this e-mail resolved your question:

If yes, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-y?c=yxdduyvd3322419854
If not, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-n?c=yxdduyvd3322419854

Please note: this e-mail was sent from an address that cannot accept incoming e-mail.

To contact us about an unrelated issue, please visit the Help section of our web site.

Best regards,

Sindhu
Amazon.com Customer Service

(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
~ Anthony Tini

One more week to go!

7 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Here's Greg's response to my question (he gave me permission to quote it in the comment room):

"It is a grey area. To some extent it depends on how specific he or she is being. If they say "Europe", that's a wide enough swath, that I'm pretty safe, particularly since I've already shown Gargoyles in Europe. If they say... um... the village of "Liepzigstein" in the Qral Mountains of Romania, well then that's just so specific that if I was planning to put something there -- or at some point would have stumbled on the same notion through my own research -- then I'm at real risk. Obviously the big question is some middle ground, but I trust your judgment. I have to trust your judgment, which means you should always err on the side of being conservative about letting questions through."

Australia's large enough that it's probably safe, so I suppose that your question is acceptable.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Antiyonder : Nayrusavatar is a she.
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

Matt - I would have to hope Avalon seriously compensated to allow the female gargoyles to become pregnant. For starters, on Avalon, I suspect it's a 1-3 hour window of opportunity. Of course, this also effects a timedancing Katana. She's going to have to be the right age in the right year on the right date for Brooklyn to have his 1st hatchling.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

DPH> Yeah,I found his response to your question very interesting as well. So the year is as important as the date. It's almost as if there is some sort of 10/20 year cycle going on and perhaps the gargoyles themselves are attuned to that as well as the length of daylight hours (which keys them into the solstices). It really makes me wonder about Avalon though. I mean, unless Avlon's magic is doing some serious compensation, gargoyles should almost never be able to reproduce on the island. For one thing, it is always summer on the island, so there is no fall or spring solstice. Or maybe the key to the whole thing is the eternal summer on the island. I dunno.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Actually, Anthony, I'm more interested in Greg's response to my question - http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10617 . That knocks out the possibility of artificial insemination to increase gargoyle population doing odd years - even by drugs even though I didn't include drugs in my question. I would re-ask my Ophelia pregnancy question, but I think I need to wait a while longer.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Did you guys read Greg's responce today to this guy: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10612

It made me LOL.

(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
~ Anthony Tini

Perhaps it would be a good idea for us to sign up anyway, though, if it is as someone suggested a marketing tool to gauge interest? At least if you do business with Amazon and already have an account, it can't hurt.

Me, I get pretty much everything from Amazon, including the breakfast cereal I'm eating right now. And the keyboard I'm typing this on, come to think of it. And the mouse. And the desk. And the chair. And the --

Anyway, I'm getting to be real buddies with the UPS guy. :D

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Todd>"I suppose it might work. But I'm really going to need to discuss this with Greg Weisman."

So can I resubmit now it or should I wait until you've discussed it?

DVD> Interesting, but this link for season 3 makes me skeptical;

http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Season-Three/dp/B001993Y7W/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1213928427&sr=11-1

AG

MATT> <<Greg B> Well, I doubt Greg would have told you anyway if he wants it to be a surprise at the Gathering.>>

Actually, he's usually pretty forthcoming when we talk about things like this. We did discuss the DVD briefly a couple of weeks ago, and he did not mention this.

Again, I am hoping it'll be a pleasant surprise, but I don't want anyone to set themselves up for disappointment. I do not think there is anything legit about Amazon's page.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

Found a couple of youtubers with some Gargoyles episodes download:

- http://www.youtube.com/user/tranquility4ever725
- http://www.youtube.com/user/nayrusavatar (Though he's been off for 3 months, I PMed him requesting that he remove episodes from Awakening Part 1 up to the Kingdom)

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

dph>At the same time, the sales rank for BG didn't drop all that drastically.

Quite frankly, I also don't think BG is a good predictor of the main title's success, or vice versa.

Meg

Greg B> Well, I doubt Greg would have told you anyway if he wants it to be a surprise at the Gathering. Again, I don't think it is coming out yet, but the Greg-Gathering explanation is the only thing I could think of that would make sense why Greg wouldn't have told anyone yet.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

**IF** it's true, I agree with Matt. Greg will likely announce it at the Gathering. I am not holding my breath or getting excited yet. It's cool to see there, but means diddly till either Greg announces it or Disney puts out a press release.
Siren

Greg and I have lunch semi-frequently. The last time the subject of the DVD came up, he didn't mention this.

I don't think it's legit and I don't want anyone to set themselves up for disappointment.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

The only thing I can think of is that the Amazon link is accurate and Greg is planning on telling everyone at the Gathering. I don't think this is likely, though I hope it is true.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Ed - Thx for the numbers. The drop between bg issue #2 and bg issue #3 is horrible. 1 month between issues and sells still drop a bunch. That makes me wonder how bad the numbers potentially could be for gargoyles issue #9.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

I was kinda figuring it could be BS. That's why I posted about it here, because I knew you guys would be more likely to have an answer then well... anyplace else on the internet.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Season 2 DVD: well, at least someone's happy at that announcement (even if they are excrutiatingly Oblivious)..

Comics..erm.. no comment..

Bob: it's the Chinese Clan in Xandau that raises the beasts :)

Starlioness

Yes, I am pretty sure that Amazon link is BS. Sorry everyone.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

I don't belive it. Not for one minute. Not untill GREG WEISMAN HIMSELF walks barefoot into hell and back and tells us it is so.

I do not belive it. Yet.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Yup, Amazon has tons of placeholders on their site. Here's another supposed release that's BS: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PMG16U/102-7317637-4104138 I suspect Amazon sells the traffic and sign-up numbers to marketers to gauge interest. Still it's nice to be noticed. There's always a chance that Amazon heard murmurs from someone at BVE that inspired them to create the placeholder.
Lumpmoose - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Until we get official confirmation from Greg himself, I'm just going to assume that somebody at Amazon is jumping the gun.
Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

There are several DVDs on Amazon that have been there for years and haven't come out yet or even been hinted at.

Amazon's just taking a guess.

Anonymous

Give me the name of the Amazon executive that you spoke with her telephone number. I do not take assertions of "I know someone who told me..." at face value.

By this time next week, I'll be in Chicago.

8 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]

I'm very excited that the rest of Gargoyles Season 2 is coming out on DVD that I will get to complete the entire series. When will we hear news about the DVD release for the rest of Gargoyles Season 2?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]

thats great about seson 2 vol. 2

Spoonvonstup- i dont know where i got that idea from, when i first found out about these clans i'v just always thought that. If this were the case i would think it would be the one the doesn't raise the beasts.

which clan raises the beasts anyways, the one in china or korea

bob
"no, are ya mad these are your childern...no one threatens my eggs"- Princess Katherine- Avalon part 3

Take it for what's it worth>

I just got off the phone with a representative at Amazon.com. She told me that that page with Gargoyles Season 2 Volume 2 has been created because it WILL be coming out eventually, and that the executives at Amazon.com know that it will be coming out -- they just don't have a specific release date.

I think Amazon might have ruined Greg's big announcement at the Gathering, but I would definitely love and need to hear some confirmation on this from Mr. W himself.

Let's all try not to get too excited until we get more confirmation. Oops, too late…WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini

Ouch.

165. Gargoyles #1 (7,500)
205. Gargoyles #2 (6,900)
189. Gargoyles #3 (6,504)
227. Gargoyles #4 (5.775)
236. Gargoyles #5 (5,737)
236. Gargoyles #6 (5,433)
* 244. Gargoyles: Bad Guys #1 (4,973)
236. Gargoyles #7 (5,457)
233. Gargoyles #8 (5,288)
* 273. Gargoyles: Bad Guys #2 (4,211)
* 282. Gargoyles: Bad Guys #3 (3,657)

Ed

Jonny, just once, could you type something other than "Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2"? Maybe something like "the rest of season two"? Just ONCE? :P

By the way, I'm going to the Gathering again this year! I'll see you guys there!

D. Taina

I signed up Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD at Amazon.com
Is Disney releasing Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD?

Jonny Modlin - [mmodlin at optonline dot net]
Jonny Modlin

Ozzie Arcane> No announcement that I know of. I think this is just a case of Amazon having a listing for something that they think will be coming out at some point even if there's no indication that it is beyond the logic that volume 1 should be followed by volume 2. It'd be great if it turned out to true, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'd need to see confirmation from a more reliable source before I stat getting my hopes up.
Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I just don't see how asking if there were any gargoyles in Australia is any different from, say, asking what Demona did during World War II. However, I would like to recommend that if you're having bad luck with the archives, just ask the question here in the Comment Room. That's worked well for me in the past.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But see? That's what I'm talking about. Now Venture will send Samson after the rest of us and he'll go totally sickhouse on our asses! I like my ass, gentlemen." -The Monarch.

I haven't really hung around here in awhile so I don't know if anyone else mentioned this. But Season 2 Vol. 2 seems to suddenly have a page on Amazon.com and it says you can sign up to have them e-mail you when it becomes available. I'm positive this page wasn't there a few months ago. Was there an announcement I didn't hear about?

http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Season-Two-Vol-2/dp/B00198X0YA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=
1213872271&sr=1-4

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

I suppose it might work. But I'm really going to need to discuss this with Greg Weisman.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Er... make that;

Were there any gargoyles living in Australia?

AG

Good point. So how about;

Were there any gargoyles in living Australia?

AG

AG> I don't think there is anything wrong with that question, but it wouldn't surprise me if Greg responded to it by reminding you that Goliath, Angela and Bronx visited Australia in "Walkabout".
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Todd>So if I do as others have kindly suggested, and rephrase the question, (using one of the already accepted questions as a template) would this be acceptable?

(using this question as a template;
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9501)

"Were there any gargoyles in Australia?"

I would just post that question alone without anything else. What do you think?

AG

Matt & others - I admit I was over generalizing when I mentioned the Chinese clan being in severe trouble strictly because of the Communists. There are places that they can hide, but I'm not convinced their numbers are that high.

Oh yea, next question to be answered at Ask Greg is biological.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Spoonvonstub> "In an aside, there's something hilarious about this scene. The Magus simply appears *out of nowhere* on top of the castle's highest turret in order to chastise the gargoyles for taking so long. Then he pushes past them in a pouty manner, apparently in a great hurry to get downstairs. Since when could the Magus teleport? Gets me everytime.."

A wizard did it!

Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

DEMONSKRYE - Good point about Demona, though I don't think that any of the other gargoyles would be able to match her in the intensity of hatred. For one thing, Demona's experienced a thousand years of being hunted and hated; I don't think that any of the other gargoyles have suffered such a past. Not to mention that part of the reason for Demona's hate is her failure to take responsibility for her role in the Wyvern Massacre. It takes more than regular persecution to produce someone like her.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

@Demonskrye- "I think it's also important keep in mind that clans are made up of individuals with differing opinions. I'd be very surprised if their weren't at least a few gargoyles in the world who agreed with Demona's perspective to some degree at least. Not necessarily whole clans, but some individuals. I really don't want to see Demona as the one "evil" gargoyle and everyone else in the species is happy to coexist with humanity, even if humanity isn't too interested in coexisting."

I think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind. A good example of this possibility actually played out is in 'Reawakening.' In the opening you can see that Coldstone (then, I guess he was 'Othello'?) shares some of Demona's negative feelings towards the humans.

Demona: Why do we risk ourselves to protect the humans' castle?
Coldstone: She's right. Let the vikings have it. We can survive anywhere.
Hudson (interrupting): A gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air.

<In an aside, there's something hilarious about this scene. The Magus simply appears *out of nowhere* on top of the castle's highest turret in order to chastise the gargoyles for taking so long. Then he pushes past them in a pouty manner, apparently in a great hurry to get downstairs. Since when could the Magus teleport? Gets me everytime..>

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

Bob> I can definitely see one or more of the clans that are more isolated feeling less than positive towards humans. "Hate" may be too strong of a word, but I could imagine a clan feeling that gargoyles are better off staying away from humans than living among them. If the other citizens of New Olympus are any indication, that clan may be the most hostile to humans of any of the existing clans.

I think it's also important keep in mind that clans are made up of individuals with differing opinions. I'd be very surprised if their weren't at least a few gargoyles in the world who agreed with Demona's perspective to some degree at least. Not necessarily whole clans, but some individuals. I really don't want to see Demona as the one "evil" gargoyle and everyone else in the species is happy to coexist with humanity, even if humanity isn't too interested in coexisting.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

@Algernon> I actually had very little familiarity myself, but then I fell in love with a Chinese lit/lang major who's in China/Tibet all summer so... I thought I would add what few things I did know to the discussion.

As far as "too political," as long as we stay away from Taiwan and Tibet, I know we have nothing to worry about. Besides, everyone here has our love and passion for Gargoyles holding us together, and I'm confident that bigger picture would help us get through most anything. I mean, haven't "Gargoyles" and "tolerance" have been connected from the get go?

@ Bob>"I'v always thought that either the clan in China or Korea would hate humans, not as much as Demona but they would still want humans far away from them and if a human ever did find them they would either move or kill that human. "

Really? That's an interesting idea; I don't think I would have been able to think of that. Out of curiosity, what makes you say so?

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

Spoonvonstup> I admit I have little familiarity with Chinese history beyond the odd History Channel special. I was simply referring to the tendency of communist regimes devolving into totalitarian hellholes in general, but now we're getting political so I'll just back off.
Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

9 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I'v always thought that either the clan in China or Korea would hate humans, not as much as Demona but they would still want humans far away from them and if a human ever did find them they would either move or kill that human. That would be an interesting story how Golith and/or any of his clan would deal with that and how Demona would fit in.
bob
"no, are ya mad these are your childern...no one threatens my eggs"- Princess Katherine- Avalon part 3

@Algernon "Never stopped humans killing gargs before, add to that the general trigger-happy nature of most communist regimes and the Xanadu clan would do well to keep to those big white "uninhabited" spaces on Greg B's map.">

Good point, though I do balk at assuming that the communist regime would be the most dangerous time for a Gargoyle clan. It's not at all like China was a happy and wonderful place until some evil communists took over and decided that would destroy everything. The Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864), led by a quasi-christian group against the Manchu dynasty, was the second deadliest war in human history (15 years, 20 million dead). Other fun struggles (most resulting from the colonialism and the wonderful way China was indisciminantly carved up) include the Punti-Hakka Clan Wars, the Nien Rebellion, the Muslim Rebellion, the Panthay Rebellion, the Sino-French War, the Sino-Japanese War, and the Boxer Rebellion. The alliance between the Nationalists and the (at the time) small Communist party was able to put an end to the rising number of warlords (via more military force), before the nationalists ruthlessly turned on the communists and drove them (in the Long March) to Yunnan province (just south of the Tibetan Autonomous Region). The two sides were then in conflict for the next 14 years, during which you had the not-so-wonderful conflict with Japan (WWII); the atrocities committed during this time by Japan on the Chinese have still not been admitted by Japan. Afterwards, the civil war continued until about 1949.

So, while the cultural revolution also resulted in enourmous loss (life, culture, etc), it was by no means the only (or first) thing that would have been problematic for our gargoyle population. Matt's suggestion is a good one; the Xanadu clan sounds like it is, first and foremost, a survivor. It seems very reasonable to assume that the clan experienced human conflict before the cultural revolution; by the time the communists would have posed a threat to them, they probably either removed themselves from human populations, or formed connections to specific individuals/families rather than larger political/social organizations.

All of this discussion just makes me even more eager to see how this will all play out int he comics. so much possibility! Such rich history and mythology to draw on!


**Totally unrelated: I've been working on updating the Gargoyles Music Video Database; hopefully I'll get everything worked out and up to snuff before the Gathering. The database is always happy to have new entries and new editors.

http://www.freewebs.com/gargoylesmusicvideos

Another reminder, it would be really fun if we could get that "GMV Hell" parody project up and running early so that we can turn in something awesome for next year's Gathering. If you've got short comedic material that you'd like to submit, please do!

http://www.freewebs.com/gargoylesmusicvideos/gmvhell.htm

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

I poked through the archive a bit but I don't have time to go through all 800+ results of my search. Something I've been pondering. Gargs turn to stone during the day. I did find from the archives that it's not a set time nor is it brought on specifically by seeing the sun. Also that it's effected by location and shifting time zones. I assume then that a gargoyle at either of the poles would be active or inactive that much longer given the extreme length of day/night depending on the season. Also that in the event of a nuclear winter effect, the gargoyles would retain the same sleep cycles since the day/night cycle is unaffected.
Does that sound reasonable?

Ethan Gilchrist - [ethangilchrist at gmail dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Clan Numbers> I am not good with numbers, so I don't think I should be hazarding any guesses about the stats of the carious clans, particularly those we haven't met yet. But a few points to keep in mind:

The closest Greg has ever got to giving a number of gargoyles beasts that were in the Wyvern Clan pre-massacre is "more than four, less than ten." That's in a clan with roughly 80 members. So at least at the time, we could say that beasts make up roughly 5%-10% of a clan's population. Obviously this is just one example and Greg has suggested that the shortage of beasts hit the British Isles particularly hard. But the shortage was also apparently not limited to that area. Necessary secrecy has probably helped the gargoyle beast population rebound a little in some clans, but starting with limited beasts probably didn't help things. With exceptions like the Xanadu clan, I wouldn't estimate much more than one beast per ten gargoyles in a clan.

The London Clan is exercising population control by limiting each couple to two eggs. They have 25 eggs now, which means that 25 is roughly 2/3 of the total number of eggs the clan could produce (give or take, since generations may not have the same number of members). So if every capable pair had produced an egg, the London Clan could probably have 37 or 38 eggs in their rookery, which is reasonably close to the Wyvern Clan's 36 eggs. Of course, the parent generations in the London Clan are themselves the product of population control and we know that the Wyvern Clan had a high mortality rate (dropping from 72 breeding aged gargoyles in 988 to around 80 total members by 994). So depending on their rate of premature death and need to practice population control, other clans could conceivably be much larger. Speaking of which....

It's worth considering whether any other clans are exercising some form of population control. Though they may not be as strict as the London Clan, some of the other clans may still be limited by their surroundings, the ability of an area to support that many gargoyles, and the need to keep from becoming too numerous for humans to ignore. Since many clans have limited or no interaction with humans, premature death may not be as much of a factor as it once was, but the Mayan Clan certainly shows that humans can still pose a serious threat to gargoyle populations.

So while I'm not going to guess possible numbers for the existing clans, I will pose a guess as to their future population situation and needs.

Manhattan and Labyrinth Clans: Probably the most in need of additional members. Even with the addition of Katana, the number of breeding pairs is these two clans is alarmingly low. There are going to be generations with only one member and Fu-Dog may need to find a mate. (We don't know for sure. he could be past mating age or his mate may have died before he joined Brooklyn.) New members or donations of eggs will be crucial to the survival of these two clans.

Avalon Clan: Solid numbers and a relatively safe environment (for now) put this clan on good footing. Giving Avalon's habit of sending travelers "where they need to be," I'm sure the clan will be able to find new members if ther generations should ever get to the point where they're too closely related. (I'm also pretty convinced that Bronx and Boudicca will be reunited via Avalon's skiffs or its magic, if not permanently then at least during Boudicca's heats.)

London Clan: The most likely candidate for sending members and eggs to bolster small clans or found new ones. I'm sure the London gargoyles would be more than happy to give up the two eggs per couple rule to help out clans that need eggs, once doing that becomes possible. Since children are still raised communally, no one would have to be asked to give up "their" egg. And I imagine gargoyles will soon come to see their entire race as sort of like one big clan that parents each generation together. Gargoyles from this clan are also likely to join presumptive New Camelot clan founding member Griff in getting that new clan started. They will probably be among the first in line to add beasts to their clan, given how saddened Griff was at having to tell Lex that they currently have none (which makes me think there was at least one beast in the clan sometime befor Griff's "disappearance".)

Ishimura Clan: The second most likely of the known clans to supply eggs to others. Though they aren't limited to a single estate like the London clan, they do still have to live within the confines and supply limitations of Ishimura, which may have led to some kind of population control.

Mayan Clan: The four surviving adults have many challenges ahead raising and protecting a while generation of gargoyles on their own. They may not require any more eggs, but a few new adult members might be needed to help keep the growing gargoyles safe from humans and out of trouble.

New Olympus Clan: It may be too early to say. We know this clan is very isolationist, so their interaction with other clans may be limited, and will probably be nonexistent at least until New Olympus is revealed to the world, which probably won't happen for another decade or two. On the plus side, centuries of life away from any human interference have probably made this clan very strong in numbers.

Loch Ness Clan: Probably more limited than any other clan by their geography. I don't know if Greg has said whether they are amphibious or strictly aquatic. If it's the latter, this clan is going to be very limited by an inability to take on new members or send any to other clans and how many gargoyles the Loch can support. I think it's fair to guess that they don't have any beasts since we have yet to see the diversity of appearance among beasts that exists in gargoyles and we know beasts were rare in the British Isles anyway. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Pukhan Clan: Way too early to say anything. Their seclusion may have helped them to grow into a good sized clan, but it's impossible to know this early on.

Xanadu Clan: Obviously, the supplier of beasts to the Gargoyle Nation. Though some other clans may have reasonably healthy numbers of beats, this clan seems poised to be the salvation of the species.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Todd>So if I do as others have kindly suggested, and rephrase the question, (using one of the already accepted questions as a template) would this be acceptable?

(using this question as a template;
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9501)

"Were there any gargoyles in Australia?"

I would just post that question alone without anything else. What do you think?

AG

I don't see why you are so convinced that the Pukhan and Xanadu Clans have anything to do with humans or their local wars. These clans are survivors, they are not stupid. They have probably survived because they either have isolated themselves so that no humans know they exist and are very unlikely to find them or they have some strong pact with a group of humans that keep them secret. I tend to think the former with both Xanadu and Pukhan. The only thing I agree with is that the beast population probably outnumbers the gargoyle population in Xanadu. Beasts breed sooner, have four eggs instead of three and are being actively protected and bred by the Xanadu gargoyles, so I'm sure their numbers are in very good shape. I'd say that by 2198, most beasts' ancestry will lie mostly from Xanadu.

Anyway, though as Chip pointed out, we have a lot of unknowns, I still am a bit more optimistic about the gargoyle population. And I also think there is going to be a dramatic rise by 2198. By that time there will be two new clans. I think the London Clan will end its population control and all the full clans will send members to boost the smaller clans. But the thing is, we've mostly only seen the decimated and young clans so far. Avalon, Manhattan and Labyrinth are so new and their numbers are too low to take as an average of how things are. The Mayan Clan suffered a very recent massacre. The London Clan is intentionally limiting its numbers.

There is not reason to think the others clans are having these problems, and Greg has said that they are mostly full clans (though admittedly, we still don't have a perfect definition for that term, I tend to think it as a clan that can produce at least 20 eggs per generation).

So, with all that in mind, here are my guesses.
As of November, 1996:

Manhattan: 6 gargoyles, 1 beast, no eggs
Avalon: 32 gargoyles, 3 beasts, possibly one beast egg
Labyrinth: 4 gargoyles, no beasts, no eggs
London: 196 gargoyles, no beasts, 25 eggs
Ishimura: 200 gargoyles, 35 beasts, 26 eggs
Mayan: 4 gargoyles, no beasts, 30 eggs (some of which are beast eggs)
New Olympus: 300 gargoyles, 40 beasts, 40 eggs
Loch Ness: 150 gargoyles, no beasts, 20 eggs
Pukhan: 220 gargoyles, 25 beasts, 22 eggs
Xanadu: 150 gargoyles, 200 beasts, 40 eggs
Rogues: 4 gargoyles

World Total: 1266 gargoyles, 304 beasts, 204 eggs

These numbers may seem high, but consider them. The world population of gargoyles is probably less than that of a small human town. For reference I used the known size of the London Clan, the numbers revealed at Ask Greg and the fact that the Wyvern Clan (at full clan levels) produced 36 eggs in 988.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

I can easily believe the Xanadu gargoyles being connected to Chinese myths and legends. It fits in with what we've seen elsewhere: the London gargoyles look like either straightforward mythical animals (unicorns, griffons, and hippogriffs) or animals with symbolic importance (such as lions and white stags), the Mayan gargoyles have at least one member (Zafiro) who resembles a couatl, and the Ishimura gargoyles are known as tengu. (Not to mention that "The Hound of Ulster" suggested that gargoyle beasts are the inspiration for the stories about black dogs in Britain and Ireland.) It would be almost inevitable for the same to be true with the Xanadu clan.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Spoonvonstup> "I don't see why groups wouldn't feel the same way about gargoyle clans, especially if the gargoyles were doing their fair share of protecting as well (which, of course, they would)."

Never stopped humans killing gargs before, add to that the general trigger-happy nature of most communist regimes and the Xanadu clan would do well to keep to those big white "uninhabited" spaces on Greg B's map.

Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

@China> Plus, even though the cultural revolution was supposed to remove anything and everything old, it didn't always happen like that. If it had, Qufu (birthplace of Confucius/Kong Zi)wouldn't have anything left; no burial grounds, no buildings, no nothing. That place was and still is representative of thousands and thousands of years of Chinese culture, and yet it survived the revolution mostly intact. In addition, all stones with calligraphy pre-cultural revolution would have been destroyed, but of course, they weren't (thank goodness! but seriously, when faced with this kind of art, how could you? rubbings of these stones are actually strictly controlled by the government to protect the carvings to this day). There were certain places and items that, despite orders and a real belief that they were doing the right thing, the people doing the destruction simply held far too much respect to destroy these cultural icons.

I don't see why groups wouldn't feel the same way about gargoyle clans, especially if the gargoyles were doing their fair share of protecting as well (which, of course, thy would).

Plus, Bishansky is absolutely right. China is freaking HUGE. They could definitely just sit in inner Mongolia for a month right out in the open and they'd have zero problems.

As far as Garg beasts in the Xanadu clan, the Wiki is pretty explicit. Plus, fu-dogs all over the place; I mean, there's not much guess work to do:
http://crufflerjj.com/adoption%20pics/Edited%20for%20Web/loose-ball.jpg
Maybe the Chinese garg clan could be connected to the Eight Daoist Immortals (probably not, they sound more like Children of Oberon). Or perhaps Greg could end up drawing on something like the Epic of Gesar (which takes several days to recite; would be the longest recorded epic in the world if it was ever written down); that thing is full of demons and craziness up the wazoo. Of course, most of those demons probably came into the story when Buddhism entered the area and turned the local deities into evil gods that needed to be destroyed but..whatever- mythologies tend to get turned on their head when an area is invaded and taken over. Anyway, the area would be about right. The action of the epic takes place a little to the west (right along the western boundary of the Tibetan Autonomous Region of China), but still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_King_Gesar

(so ends our required does of China for the day)

Spoonvonstup - [<-- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

DPH> <<When the communists took over China, do you think the Chinese clan was isolated enough not to be noticed?>>

Do you have an idea how big China is?

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_population_83.jpg

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

This gargoyle population chart seems kinda silly to me...there are way too many unknowns. We don't know the circumstances of The Loch Ness, New Olympus, Xanadu, & Pukan. Heck, we don't even know the circumstances of the Ishimuran clan. We don't know if they're intentionally limiting their numbers (like London), or looking for new blood to save a dying clan (like Manhattan, though Manhattan isn't actively looking for new blood)...we just don't have enough info.
Nevertheless I'll play along and put my 2 cents in.
Here's what we do know:

New York: 13 gargs counting all clones and Demona, not counting Bronx (nor am I counting Katana and Nashville, who are soon to arrive, 15 if you count them)
London: 196. No beasts.
Avalon: 32 plus 3 beasts, but I'm counting those separately.
Guatamela: 4
Ishimura: most likely between 40-80 based on what we saw in "Bushido". But it could be more...could be as many as London. At least 1 beast, according to Greg there are a few more, not many...
New Olympus: ? don't know, not enough info...odds are their population is high due to isolation for so long, but we do not know.
Xanadu: ? not enough info, but as a betting man I'd say that there are more beasts or "Fu-dogs" in this clan than there are actual gargoyles.
Loch Ness: ?
Pukhan: ?

DPH is probably right about Pukhan and Xanadu...their numbers are probably pretty low, my opionion (and I always disclaimer my opinion because I know I'm not perfect and I can be wrong) is that Xanadu has more beasts than gargoyles the only guess I'll take a stab at: 30 gargoyles, 50 beasts...but this really has no evidence backing it up...it's just kind of a gut feeling.

estimating that each unknown clan has an average of 100 members (which could be way off, especially if New Olympus has like 300 or 400 members) than the guestimated world gargoyle population is 650-700 not counting eggs or beasts.
25 London eggs
1 Manhattan egg (Tachi, I count her based on the hatching date of 1998 not by her actual appearance)
between 40-80 Guatamelan eggs
between 40-80 Ishimuran eggs
??? eggs for New Olympus, Loch Ness, Xanadu, & Pukhan. I don't even want to venture there because of possible breeding restrictions like in London.
Bronx, Buidicca, 2 more Avalon beasts, my estimated 50 Xanadu beasts maybe 8-10 Japanese Beasts, and what the hey Fu-dog too.
This comes to about 60 beasts...I'm assuming that Loch Ness, Pukhan, and New Olympus have none like London. If they did, I'd bet around 10 to 15 per clan. Also Guatemela prolly has beasts in those eggs, but also likely a low number as seen above. so between 60-100 beasts worldwide

So to recap:

650-700 gargoyles
60-100 beasts

And that's my 39 cents in exact change. (inflation from 2 cents) Feel free to blow me out of the water, burst my bubble, and pop my balloon now.

Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Matt - When the communists took over China, do you think the Chinese clan was isolated enough not to be noticed? As far as the Korean clan's numbers being small, consider the Korean war. I would say the Korean clan wouldn't be living anywhere near the border between North and South Korea because of the fighting in the past. Of course, I'm just speculating. I wouldn't mind being completely about the current size of world-wide population of gargoyles. If there was more than 1,000 still around, I would be surprised. Greg does have it mapped out how the current population (1996) makes it to become the large 2198 population.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

As secluded as Xanadu is, why would that Clan be any smaller than London which is intentionally limiting their numbers?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Battle Beast & BlueWyvern >> Yeah, Gillcongain merely called her a "thief" and got slashed. Best to just call her a gargoyle and live to tell the tale :P
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Battle Beast> "Demona (is she a half goyle now?)"

I wouldn't make that suggestion to her face.

:P

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Matt - I didn't count any beasts in Manhattan, but I miscounted London's size. According to the comic, their size is 196 and no beasts. If London can survive with 196, then it's reasonable for both New Olympus and Ishimura to have 196. I'm still not going to adjust the numbers for the Chinese or Korean clans, just to be on the safe side. I'd like to pleasantly surprised to find their numbers much larger, especially the Chinese clan.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

DPH> Keep in mind that some of your guesses are just that, guesses. For all we know the New Olympian Clan or whatever could number in the hundreds. Also, in some clans you count beasts and others you don't.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

BattleBeast - I hate to disagree with your count of total gargoyle (not beasts) population in 1996, but it seems small:
Manhattan clan - 6
Labyrinth clan - 5
Thailog and Demona
London - 100
Ishimura - 80 to 100
New Olympus - 80 to 100
Guatamela - 4
Avalon - 35 (Angela now resides with the Manhattan clan)
Loch Ness - 80 to 100
Pukhan, Korea - 30 to 50 - Small numbers because of the human wars
Xanadu, China - 30 to 50 - Small numbers because of human wars
Conservatively, I count ~450. Optimistically, I count ~550. After the eggs hatch in 1998, I expect the population to have grown by at least 100.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Harvester of Eyes> I believe it was "The Green".
Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

I forget: in what episode did Goliath say there were once gargoyles all over the world?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But see? That's what I'm talking about. Now Venture will send Samson after the rest of us and he'll go totally sickhouse on our asses! I like my ass, gentlemen." -The Monarch.

Sorry for the double post>

MATT> Gargoyles in 1996:

NY> 7 + Demona (is she a half goyle now?)

London> App. 100

Ishimura> App. 80

Guatamala> 4

Avalon> 36

So i would guess only, MAYBE 400.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Myself, I tried to write a fan-fiction YEARS AGO about Gargoyles in Australia but all my characters 9as I later found out) were Mary Janes (Mary Sues?). I still think it would be cool to see a garygoyle with a that Australian hat 9fedora/cowboy hat) with teeth around and a cool dungaree jacket or the kind people in the outback wear. 9I hope I'm not beeing too stereotypical).
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

As for the question of how common banished gargoyles are in general, I'd guess pretty rare. In 1996 there are, what, a few hundred gargoyles? Maybe a few thousand at most. Take the human population as a guide and look at what percentage of the human population is imprisoned or on the run from the law. I would think gargoyle-banishment is even more rare than human imprisonment. That is a guess though. But in any case, it wouldn't surprise me if Yama, Demona, Thailog, Brentwood, and the Coldtrio were the only non-clan affiliated gargoyles out there currently. Maybe.

Or maybe there are lots, but with clans so scattered and few in number, this just doesn't seem likely.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

It's highly unlikely there are any gargoyles living in Australia. As Robyn Canmore said non clan affiliated gargoyles are extremely rare. Banished gargs are also unlikely to be wondering around Oz since the nearest clans are in China and Japan respectively. I can't see a lone Garg crossing huge swaths of ocean under their own power.

Of course there's also the Avalon and New Olympus clans. If the Avalon clan had to banish one of their own, they could probably just pop out to the real world and leave the offender on the first habitable landmass they found.

We don't really know where New Olympus actually is, so it may just be a flying trireme's ride away from the land down under. On the other hand, I doubt the New Olympians would be willing to let one of their citizens wonder about the human world for fear that they might expose them.

If I were a gambling man, I'd lay good money on no gargs currently living in Australia.

Algernon
"Note to self: give naked dictation more often. The ideas seem to flow more freely." -Norman Osborn

"All things are true."

We're down to the final stretch...

10 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's travel in your future when your tongue freezes to the back of a speeding bus..." - Weird Al Yankovic, "Your Horoscope for Today"

I can understand why Todd junked it. The bit with "the gliders made me think..." made it look more like an original thought than it perhaps was intending, it's not (ostensibly) new ground and it's pretty specific. The second question -- taken with past knowledge -- presumably posits that a clan was there, died out, but left a lone fragment behind. It's borderline but 'better safe than sorry'.

"Before 1994, were there ever any gargoyles in Australia?" seems both new and fair to me.

You could ask in general if there are other gargoyles in the world in 1996 (i.e. "present day" for the comics) who are not currently part of a clan besides Yama, Demona and Thailog. (I don't recall if this has been asked but someone else here may).

Questions about the frequency of banishment and banished gargoyles might also be interesting, and topical given 'Bad Guys'.

I'm just not sure it's wise to follow up on lone gargoyles in Australia unless a subsequent answer of Greg gives you a good reason to ask.

I don't think the rules need changing. Ultimately, it's down to Todd's judgment, and Todd judges thousands of questions a year. It's very rare that there's any controversy whatsoever. He is always willing to promptly explain his decision and anyone can always resubmit a question if only one part is faulty or indeed if a mistake was made. On the flip side, Greg can't unsee an original idea. A 'better safe than sorry' approach might mildly frustrate question-askers but it's better for everyone in the end.

Ed

I don't know how else to explain that I am making a distinction between a clan and an individual gargoyle.

On another note, isn't it a little ironic that while you insist the question has been answered, Todd says the question is not allowed? Both can't be true, can they?

AG

AG> Greg listed the currently existing clans and I linked you to the article on it in the GargWiki. That should answer your second question.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

Thank you for your understanding on the first question.

As I stated previously about the second question, I am not asking about clans specifically. I'm asking about any gargoyles currently existing, even if it's just one. That has not been answered, I searched the archive. If it has, please provide a link where Greg directly says that.

AG

Fine, was there once a clan in Australia is not a repeat question.

But, the second question is very much something that's been answered, and if you checked the archives for info on existing clans, you'd know that. That's what the archives, the FAQ, and now the GargWiki exist for.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

I don't believe my questions have been answered directly. If Goliath's indirect statement is good enough, then why doesn't that gargwiki clan page list all the countries in the world as once having a clan? And why doesn't it say there are no gargoyles currently in Australia?

Obviously it's because Greg hasn't directly said these things, that's what I'm asking him for, a direct reference. Of coarse, it is at his discretion weather he replies or not, but that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the question itself.

And with all due respect, I thought I would be able to get a civil discussion about this point of contention so I would appreciate you actually addressing the points/examples I raised rather than using provocative phrases like "get over it" and accusing someone whose only ever posted once to Ask Greg of flooding with repeat questions. It just seems like these comments are designed to manipulate a reaction from me to discredit my position.

AG

AG> You should probably get over it. Besides, your second question was answered. No need to flood Ask Greg with repeat questions.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

Todd> If those examples don't sway you then how about these more recent ones;

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10489

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9501

Or what about the fact that GW conducted a competition on this site where he invited people to speculate on the location of clans, that's all I'm doing after all.

AG

Just to clarify, I have absolutely no beef with how Todd has been moderating the queue. I too feel he does an excellent job with a somewhat thankless task. It's just that we've had those same guidelines for ages, possibly since the inception of Ask Greg and I think some additional clarification on what does and doesn't constitute an idea could help make everyone's lives easier, especially Todd's.
Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

To Matt, Battle Beast, and everyone else who posted here to thank me - thank *you* very much in return.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Todd> Yu doa great job of getting the questions we want to see answered answered and you make sure that the "other stuff" doesn't wast Greg's time.

Thanks!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I just want to make two quick points.

1. I want to be clear that I think Todd is doing a great job as moderator under often trying circumstances and with little reward except our thanks. I don't think he is at fault at all. He was chosen to do a job and he has done it to the best of his ability and clearly Greg is happy with the job he has done and that's good enough for me. I wouldn't want that job.

2. I think when we see a question that is up for deletion the question should come down to whether Greg answering the question could result in a lawsuit. That is the reason for the guideline afterall. I think if it is possible, it must be deleted. And keep in mind that even if one questionable question gets through now and then Greg is under no obligation to answer it. He can and often has simply refused to respond with anything conclusive.

So, in conclusion, I'm not sure if the policy needs to be tweaked or not. Honestly, now that the comics are coming out, I think all that should be submitted to Greg is reviews, Gathering Journals, and questions about certain canon details. I wish people would steer clear of canon-in-training related questions altogether. I'm probably guilty of that myself, however. But there ya go.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Again, I think this discussion is underscoring the need for more clarity in the guidelines. We're all people who've read the existing guidelines, but we all have slightly differing opinions on how they're meant to be interpreted.

The main guideline we have is that we can ask what Demona did during WWII, but we can't ask if she tried to assassinate Hitler. That's a pretty clear cut example where I think we could all agree that the second example contains an idea. But in my view, a question about what side Demona fought on during WWII should also be rejected because it assumes facts not in evidence. We know Demona was alive during WWII, but we don't know if she took any kind of role in WWII at all. It gives us some idea of what's allowable and what isn't, but there still is a lot of gray area in between.

The other hint we have of what isn't allowable is the story about the fan suggesting that Greg should put Prospero in "Gargoyles", which is also on the front page of Ask Greg. As Greg points out, it's not exactly a huge leap of logic to assume that a major character from a Shakespeare play might make an appearance on a show that draws heavily from Shakespeare. But legally it's still problematic. I don't know how far a legal battle would get, but clearly Greg doesn't want to chance it.

Now I believe Greg has stated that at one time, there were gargoyles on every continent except Antarctica. If that's the case, then if there were clans in Africa or Australia is just confirming what we essentially already know and therefore allowable. The gargoyles in Madagascar question, however, is probably not. Madagascar is a specific country and we have no answers suggesting that it was any more or less likely than any other place to have had a clan in the past. If Greg were to confirm that there were gargoyles in Masagascar, he would be opening himself up for legal trouble from the asker claiming Greg had "stolen" the idea of a Madagascar clan. And where would it end if we allowed such questions? If there were unscrupulous people using the site who did want cause trouble, all they would need to do is keep guessing countries until they got a "yes" answer and then sue Greg claiming that they came up with the idea of a clan there.

In conclusion, I hope Greg and Todd and Gore will consider clarifying the guidelines.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I don't think it's really a story idea masquerading as a question.

Okay, the only guidelines we've gotten is that we can ask 'what Demona did during World War 2'. That doesn't require any original thought. There was a world war 2, and there was an immortal Demona who theoretically lived through it. That is information we have been presented with. So in this case, there are and have been gargoyle clans all over the world. There's this place called Australia. It's a stimulus, not an idea. Now if one were to ask 'do Australian gargoyles breath fire'. That would be an idea, because there is more of a leap of a connection. There's never been a suggestion that ANY gargoyles breath fire.

At least that's my take on it. And the same goes for Gargoyles on Madagascar, if you just asked 'were there ever Gargoyles on Madagascar?'. There are Gargoyles all over the world, there's a madagascar. No leap of the imagination required. But again, only my take.

Aldrius
"Well it helps when you don't attack your customers!" - Dot Matrix, a financial wizard

AG> well, as Demonskrye said...my gargoyle beast question is fairly benign, I was asking about something already covered in canon, and the subject of gargoyle beast populations had been brought up recently in issue #8. but it's not as though I haven't been deleted myself...I have, and to be honest I half-expected my question on Ishimura's eggs in "Bushido" to be deleted...when my questions are deleted. I try to figure out why they were deleted and re-submit using wording less likely to be deleted.

There are questions that I know I can never ask though...such as the one I want to know the most: "Were there ever Gargoyles in Madagascar, and if so can you tell me about them?" and other questions about Malagasy Gargoyles. That's a story masquerading as a question. I love Madagascar...having been there myself...but odds are that Greg hasn't even thought about Madagascar, all the cool legends surrounding the Red Isle, or the history of any gargoyles there. Knowing that, means that I can't ask that sort of question, even though I very much would like to know...because asking about a place that I know more about than Greg is basically a story idea in and of itself. At least that's how I interpret it.

Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Personally, I think that, since we've now got official material coming out, we should tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to these sort of questions. It was one thing to let a "grey area" question go by when there seemed to be little chance of it ever having real relevance. It's quite another when the lawsuit possibility really exists.

Of course, I should warn you, I haven't slept in about fourty hours, so my opinion shouldn't count for much.

Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

I think what we may need are clearer guidelines so that it's easier to understand what's an idea and what isn't. There are always going to be people who don't read the rules or just plain ignore them and there isn't much we can do about that. But we should be able to do something about people not being clear on what constitutes an idea.

If the questions about other clans in Scotland around 994 and clans in Africa were submitted and answered, then I would agree with AG that there is sufficient precedent for such questions being allowed, even though I'm a little confused as to why that was the case. It is possible that those questions were submitted and answered before Todd started moderating the queue, in which case I'd say it's his prerogative to interpret the rules as he sees fit. But therein lies the problem: the rules as they stand seem to require the moderator to make a lot of judgment calls. Some questions are clearly ideas, but a lot of them fall into a gray area and it's sometimes tough to tell why some questions go through and others are rejected.

I think the question about gargoyle beasts in Ishimura is OK in part because the phrasing is fairly benign. It's not "Are there more gargoyle beasts in Ishimura?" and it leaves opent he possibility for Greg to say that there is jus the one. Again, this is part of the problem with the rules as they stand. You can in some cases ask the exact same question and it can be accepted or rejected depending on the specific wording. Also, the main concept that there gargoyle beasts exist in Ishimura has already been addressed to some degree in the canon and it would be very hard for anyone to argue "Yeah, there was one gargoyle beast in Ishimura, but having more than one was MY idea", especially in a court of law. The questions about clans in Africa and 10th century Scotland, however, seem very idea-like and I really don't know how they got through unless Greg had already partially revealed their existence - through stating that there were once clans all over the world except for Antarctica or through "Once Upon a Time there were Three Brothers" and felt he was just restating info that was already out there. If that is the case, then I think the Australia question should have been allowed.

Perhaps Todd and Greg W and maybe Gorebash should discuss a way to make the guidelines for questions clearer so we don't end up with as many situations like this.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Grr, you'd think I'd learn about the tags. *sigh*
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

I can appreciate the caution because we have had some doozies, but in no way can I possibly construe "gargoyles in Australia" as a story idea. Unless maybe you're pitching to a Hollywood exec.

"Okay, get this. You're gonna love this one. It's like <i>Gargoyles</i>...in AUSTRALIA!"

"I love it! When can we see the script?"

I'd say let the guy resubmit his question, if he still wants to. Nothing wrong with it.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

I thought that the question was too close to a story idea masquerading as a question. The trouble is that the dividing line is too indistinct to be certain when a question could be interpreted as a story idea or not, and I usually prefer to take the cautious approach.

I wonder if we need a stronger set of guidelines (drawn up by Greg Weisman) to help tell the difference from a regular question and a story idea in the form of a question, so that this won't keep on happening.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Little known fact: There are no gargoyle clans on the moon because the surface isn't what it looks like. It's all sticky, it's covered in jam!

11 days left until The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"'Okay, Neil, don't screw it up. I'm a small man with a giant... dammit.'" - Eddie Izzard

Here's a couple of examples of questions that are almost identical to mine, just substituting the location;

"1.Where there any other clans in Scotland around 994?"

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2346

"(3)b) Were there ever any clans in Africa?"

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2518

These questions were answered.

Todd is the authority it seems so I'll wait for his reply.

AG

(10)Tenth! And away we go on with the show.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

AG: I'm sure Goliath was referring to the known world.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Join the Phoenician Navy! See the edge of the world!"

AG> "So where is the story idea in my question?"

You put forward the idea of Australian gargoyles. If Greg ever decided to write a story about Australian Gargoyles, you could claim he stole your idae and sue. I'm not saying that you personally would but we must take the steps necessary to protect Greg from those who would abuse him.

Algernon

Thanks for the links guys but they don't satisfy my curiosity. In fact, the wiki link just reaffirms my desire to ask Greg these questions.

The wiki says;

"Goliath once said that at one point (probably while humans were still in the Stone Age) there were gargoyle clans all over the world."

Humans didn't even know Australia existed in the Stone Age, so how would Goliath know if there were clans there or not?

And my questions are about gargoyles not clans. So if there was one gargoyle currently in Australia the answer to my second question would be "yes", even though there is no clan in Australia.

AG

AG - Appreciate your situation. Check the Ask Greg FAQ under World Tour and Internation Clans. See http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=faq15 . Barring visiting the Ask Greg FAQ, searching with the key words "Gargoyle Clans World", would lead you to this link: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2582
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

AG> Here, from the GargWiki... all this info comes from Greg.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Clan

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

8th in the name of MySpace.

http://www.myspace.com/KingCobra_582

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

GB> I did search the archives using "Australia" and none of the 47 results were about what I asked.

Yes, I know Goliath said clans have existed around the world, but I don't take anything a character says as gospel. All that means is, as far as Goliath knows, clans have existed around the world.

If Greg has said there aren't any there now, it didn't show in my search results so can you provide a link please?

Chip> Where is the story idea in my question? As I understand it, that's what the rule is about. Story ideas, not just ideas in general because you cannot ask a question without expressing an idea.

For example, your last question;

"We know that Ishimura has at least one gargoyle beast, considering the state of Beasts in London, I was curious, how many gargoyle beasts does Ishimura have?"

This expresses the idea that there could be more than one beast in Ishimura, but its not a story idea so its ok.

So where is the story idea in my question?

AG

Well, it was an idea masquerading as a question. But also I'm pretty sure that the question of Gargoyles in the land of Oz has been covered before. I can tell you right now that there are no gargoyles in Australia, and according to Goliath there were once clans all over the world...with the exception of Antarctica and other places with extreme day/night cycles.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

AG> Well, I don't mod Ask Greg. But, if you check the archives, you'd get the answer to your questions.

1. There were once clans all over the world.

2. There are no clans in Australia now.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Dave moved in when I was ten. So I already built up a ten year Dad-Callous but Dave was still fresh, soft and pink so I kind of became like Dave's Secret Service. Except I had to protect a really dumb guy from danger. Wow, that's exactly the Secret Service." -Christopher Titus

Why was my question deleted? It was;

"I saw a tv show that said aeroplane gliders can glide up to 1000 miles in parts of the US and up to 2000 miles in parts of Australia. This lead me to wonder;

1. Have gargoyles ever existed in Australia?

2. If so, do any currently exist there?"

AG

Fifth!
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

4th~!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Umm...yeah...

3rd!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?

2nd
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

1st
VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]