Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Greg B.> Funny, I was just looking at that question, actually. On the topic of slavery, it makes me wonder whether Demona always viewed other races as being "human." After all, there were times in human history when white/European cultures didn't quite view other races as being fully human. But then again, Demona's perspective is more distanced than theirs is. Maybe to her, anything that resembles the overall shape and doesn't turn to stone during the day and is capable of speech is "human."
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:58:46 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

TODD> I always thought Greg had a World War II story involved that probably included Demona and Macbeth. Considering how tight-lipped he's always been about Demona and World War II, something's got to be up.

Plus there's this:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8777

Greg also said he tried to keep everybody in character for the Radio Play, and he did tease with a few of his future plans for both shows there. I don't think that line from Demona, or the elipsis was an accident, or just him trying to be meta. I think it was a tease.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:47:15 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I've sometimes wondered whether that line in the "Religious Studies" radio play was inspired by Greg's example of ideas disguised as questions. (And since he came up with that one himself, he was certainly free to use it.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:27:21 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

PATRICK> Heheheheheheh, considering that Demona probably knew Hitler... yeah. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:11:35 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Mr. Castaway, I knew Hitler. And you, sir, are no Adolf Hitler.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:08:49 pm EDT from 76.190.228.74

As I mentioned a few weeks ago (and this is something that the production team for "The Goliath Chronicles" would have done well to remember - the staff for TGS, as well), Castaway's recruitment speech in "The Journey" is clearly aimed at ordinary citizens, not at mercenaries and hired thugs. Would he dwell on such things as the fear that the gargoyles might carry off his listeners' children if he was speaking to the latter?

The Quarryman movement as depicted in "The Journey" does have some vigilante aspects that probably misled the new team, but we don't know whether those people in the meeting hall knew about the military helicopter. (And, of course, the vigilante approach would be tempting to them. Remember, the NYPD is taking a low-key approach - a Gargoyle Task Force which only tries moving in on the gargoyles at St. Damien's Cathedral when it's clear that the citizens looking on will take the law into their own hands if the police don't act. No better way to convince people to become vigilantes than by convincing them that regular law enforcement isn't going to handle the situation. And in the same issue that Castaway sets up the Quarrymen in the comic book, we see Art - established in "Protection" as another ordinary, basically law-abiding citizen - opening fire on Goliath with a shotgun.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:19:33 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

I firmly believe, for those of you who want Demona fixed two centuries early... there is only one person who can do it:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/418611/august-31-2012/the-gop-convention-s-mystery-speaker---clint-eastwood-s-chair

Yes, Demona can be fixed!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:04:26 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Ah, thanks.

Yeah, Hitler did lead a political movement. What I meant was the parallel I saw was a great speaker using fear to incite violence.

Based on what Greg wrote there, I'm not sure the Quarrymen are really a political movement. It seems like he's drawing parallels more with the KKK. I seem to remember once seeing a documentary about the history of the klan (note the difference between klan and clan), where it was mentioned that during a brief period in the '70s one segment was headed by a guy whose name I forget who basically tried to present it as the NAACP for white people, and argued that blacks have their organizations to represent them, and all the klan was trying to do was do the same for whites. I've also read online that to this day, the reason the KKK has never actually been shut down by the government is because it isn't one entity. Various organizations of people scattered across the U.S. call themselves the KKK, some peaceful and some not. Based on what he wrote there about Castaway just being the face for its political arm, and how no violence can be traced back to him, that sounds more to me like the sort of organization Greg is trying to present. (There were also times throughout history, particularly in its beginnings, when the KKK was viewed more controversially, or even as an honorable organization, as opposed to the view we have of them today - just as the Quarrymen seem to be viewed with controversey in the Gargoyles Universe.)

But you clearly are more familiar with all the answers Greg has given over the years than I am. So if you feel he's presenting it as a political movement, I'll admit you have the better authority here.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:01:26 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

HARLAN> *Points at Demona sitting on a wicker chair eating Christmas dinner with the Manhattan Clan, Mazas, Xanatos family.. less than two months after she attempted mass genocide of the human race in "Hunter's Moon."

Right there... that's the spot! It was so traumatic! Now I have a crippling phobia of wicker furniture and can never fulfill my childhood dream of being a wicker furniture salesman.

*Runs away crying and takes comfort at the legs of Clint Eastwood's chair*
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 4:55:04 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Show me on the doll where TGS touched you.
Harlan Phoenix
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 4:51:43 pm EDT from 76.2.70.200

ARLO> Yup, right here:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=5163

And Hitler did head a political movement. But I equate Castaway less with Hitler and more as a human Demona.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:57:42 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

ADAM> <<I think the way the Quarrymen are portrayed in TGS and TCG is based more on how they are portrayed in "The Journey".>>

Then where were the civilian members that we saw in "The Journey?" Hmmm... where was Sarah Browne/Billy's Mom? I seem to recall a TGS episode had her participate in kidnapping a cop! Something I doubt the actual canon character would have signed on for.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:55:01 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

I never knew Greg had intended for them to be portrayed as a political movement. I thought they were basically portrayed as a terrorist organization, just one that wasn't one-dimensional, e.g. one that had members who were just good people who had been misinformed.

I have to disagree on the reasons for their portrayal, though. In "The Journey" we also see Castaway preying on the people's fears in order to persuade them into putting on the hoods. He comes across almost as a parallel for Hitler, with the new moustache: a bad man, but also a great speaker and leader who's able to persuade the people into following bigoted views. I've never read TGS, but we never see that level of depth with respect to how the Quarrymen are portrayed in the rest of TGC. The writers seem to have followed the much more standard Sunday-morning-cartoon mode of presenting things as good vs. bad.

Also: good video, Greg B.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:54:35 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Three things:

1. Greg B- funny.

2. You know your a gargoyles fan when you go out and you wonder if a gargoyle clan can live in the area. I went to a wedding yesterday and during the two hour drive, I saw a lot of farmland, forest, lakes, rivers, hills and cliffs. And I thought to myself "I wonder if a gargoyle clan could live there?"

3. I think the way the Quarrymen are portrayed in TGS and TCG is based more on how they are portrayed in "The Journey". In that episode, we see them flying a helicopter firing a machine gun at Goliath. So intead of being a political movement that I think Greg wanted them to be, they where seen as a almost paramilitary organization by the writers of TGC and TGS instead. (Just my opinion, I have never meet any of them, just what I took from those two groups when it came to the Quarrymen.)
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:38:23 pm EDT from 24.118.35.68

And, off topic, but found this on YouTube... this sums up just about everything that's wrong with Hollywood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PanzGAJnLl0

My chosen industry... sigh.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:57:37 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

One thing I *did* like about "For It May Come True", despite its weak points (including the part that both I and Bishansky brought up - that Titania's illusion ought to have been about all the gargoyles being human, rather than just Goliath), was Xanatos' line in the hospital, "I make my own visiting hours". That's definitely Xanatos. (His vengeful attack on Goliath near the end, on the other hand....)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 6:51:22 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

If I were to guess, I'd say that they probably think that the whole assasination plot is too 'heavy' for a kids' show.
Spen
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 6:30:53 pm EDT from 69.63.7.88

I wonder why they would choose to censor that one.

The Rockefellers and the New World Order don't want the public knowing they really are brainwashing gargoyles in real life?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 3:13:23 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

For a better answer... does it make a difference? One TGC episode is just like any other. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:29:47 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

J29> Which episode is that?

If you mean which episode is the "To Serve Mankind" episode, that's the one where they try to brainwash Goliath into being an assassin to kill Egon Pax (and half the episode (exaggeration) you hear Ego Pax's name hypnotically repeated)
SomeGeek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:24:38 pm EDT from 69.255.208.193

Which one is that? *hasn't seen the Goliath Chronicles in years.*
J29
"Love makes you do the wacky."
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:13:14 am EDT from 184.12.122.193

Wingless> It is.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmai dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:40:46 am EDT from 174.101.230.22

Still curious if the dreaded "To Serve Mankind" is being run on Disney XD in the US. They're skipping it all together in Canada. Which could be considered a blessing ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:22:25 am EDT from 99.246.8.105

Normalcy is so overrated. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 11:04:53 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Matt> I feel like if a normal person, who wasn't still obsessed with a cartoon from 1994 (and I'm including myself in the demographic of people who are still obsessed with it) were to pop in here and read that line, they would find it to be brimming with ironies.

Xanatos' performance was over the top. I also didn't think his line "This is all your fault!" made very much sense. Or at least, that it was out of character.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:48:23 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

I guess the archivist career makes a certain degree of sense.

I love how over the top evil Xanatos is in this episode, it's hilarious... I mean, he was so over the top that the Xanatos Program in "Future Tense" was subtle in comparison.

"THE GARGOYLES ARE MINE!"
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:33:20 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Arlo. Dude. Feel free to discuss that TGC episode all you want, but nothing will EVER make it canon.

Ever.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:19:44 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Well it seems like the most common complaint about the episode is that they should have done so many things differently, tried to show so many different angles, and so on. Like I said, I'm not disputing that it was poorly-written. Just whether it can't be considered canon. On the topic of what Titania's point was, I've already stated what point I feel she was trying to make, and you also have to keep in mind that Oberon's law prohibits her from interfering, so actually wiping out all the gargoyles on the planet wasn't an option for her. But the law could still be bent when no one was looking, in the same way Puck bent it when he turned the humans to gargoyles in "The Mirror." So she could have turned Goliath into a human, and she was showing him that he wouldn't actually be happy if she did that. But yes, it was poorly-written. There should have been a point which more specifically addressed whether he would be happy as a human. But then again, maybe her message was more of an emotional one than a logical one. Maybe the events of the episode showed Goliath that if he were transformed into a human, he would miss being a gargoyle, and wouldn't really be able to let go of that life.

Regarding the career choice, I think archivist was chosen because Goliath likes to read. Police officer/soldier would have been the more obvious choice, but I also think it's the more superficial one. All of us would be very different people if we were raised in a completely different period of time, and yet there are certain characteristics to us that we can't escape. For Goliath, it's his studious nature along with his natural ability to fight and be a good leader. The fact that Human Goliath chose to be an archivist points towards the fact that ultimately, Goliath chooses peace when given the option. And that's not so unrealistic if you consider that Goliath is who he is partly BECAUSE he was brought up to be a warrior, in a world where there wasn't any alternative. It's not so unrealistic to believe he might have pursued another venue if he'd had other options.

Maybe the fact that he's a boring archivist even goes to the point Titania was trying to make a little more. Human Goliath probably pursued a degree in Library Studies because he loved to study, then graduated and realized there weren't many jobs to be had for that major, and ended up taking a boring corporate job. It happens to so many people. And then the real irony is that it's working for a man who Real Goliath knows to be evil. Titania is showing him, among other things, that he probably likes his current life better than he would have liked it if he was a human.

On another note, I just watched Double Jeopardy, and for the first time I realized that when Lexington and Broadway break into Gen-U-Tech labs and they find Sevarius' video commentary explaining the history of Thailog, one of the dates that appears on the video is my birthday. I'm not sure whether I'm pathetic enough to feel especially honored by that, but I'm leaning towards yes.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:16:29 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

There was nothing specific about this episode that bugged me. I couldn't understand Titanias point at all. Goliath actually seemed happy as a human married to Elisa with kids. All of the drama grew out of him trying to figure out what caused it in the first place. The "it's a wonderful life plot" is such a staple that it baffles me that TGC Could actually get it wrong. I would have rather seen Titania offering Goliath the chance to be human. Human Goliath being a cop or Xanatos's head of security instead of a librarian and maybe even Demona leading the clan against Humanity to really show the impact Goliath has had on human/gargoyle relations. Then show differences, not really related to the plot, to elaborate on a world without Goliath. Such as the Clan not having names since Elisa wasn't around to explain that things need names. Somehow show that Elisa's brother is still human, but Xanatos still has an army of Mutates. So many possibilities that was just wasted. But that could be said about the whole season.
Brack
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 9:13:07 pm EDT from 98.87.146.107

And this evening's confusion showed again the big drawback of naming the fanfic projects something just one letter away from "TGC". :)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 7:13:13 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

TODD> I meant TGC, of course. But really, TGS's Quarrymen and Xanatos and TGC's... no real difference. None. Nada. None.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 7:06:38 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

We do know that "Timedancer" developed into "Runaways" and the "Alex gets kidnapped" story (which we haven't seen yet, unfortunately) into "Ransom".

I wonder if the Double Date story was similarly the source for "Genesis Undone", since both made use of Thailog, the Clones, Sevarius, and getting hold of genetic material from the clan for Sevarius' experiments.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:52:05 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

BISHANSKY - [This sentence makes my head hurt. Not your fault, Todd. It just reminds me of how incredibly stupid the Quarrymen were in TGS.]

Unfortunately, true; I suspect that their depiction in "The Goliath Chronicles" influenced the TGS staff more than most of us would be willing to admit.

(I was reading a book called "The Garden of Beasts" today, about the events in Germany in 1933 from the point of view of the U.S. ambassador to Germany and his family - a good read, by the way - and it stated that most of the members of the Gestapo were regular people rather than crazed sociopaths.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:50:27 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

"Goliath has a dream....to be a white man". - My take-away from that ep.
FTBM2010
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:49:02 pm EDT from 74.115.160.181

Interesting. I wish there was a list of all the TGC episodes that were loosely based on his original ideas. "For It May Come True" sounds to me like it may have been loosely based on his idea for the "A Midsummer Night's Dream" story he had in mind.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:48:50 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

I think "For It May Come True" was vaguely based on a premise of Greg's. He mentioned a "magical fantasy episode" once.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:43:37 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Well I'm not denying that the episode(s) was poorly written. The biggest problem to me is that that episode seems to be a recycled plot common to Saturday morning cartoons, where the protagonist is wondering how good life would be if things were different, shown it in a vision, and then becomes happy about the way things are at the end. I'm just saying I think it's possible for it to all be going on in the canon universe, just shown from Goliath's perspective. But yes, it's a poorly-written episode, there's no denying that.

If we were going to say this is canon, however (similarly to how we acknowledge that some episodes of Gargoyles which may not be our favorite to watch are, nevertheless, canon) then we would have to resolve it somehow, and we'd all be a bit more enclined to understand the underlying reasoning of the characters. In this case, I would remember that Titania is the queen of a race which is known to mortals primarily through the instances in which they've done something magical to them - usually giving them a magical gift, or playing a magical trick on them, depending on which fae was encountered. I think Titania is saying "Look, even if I gave you what you wanted [transforming him magically into a human and giving him this life where he's married to Elisa] you still wouldn't be happy." And she probably knows those are thoughts that had been going through Goliath's head lately, even if they weren't the ones he chose to articulate at that very moment. She's probably choosing to address what she knows is upsetting him on a general level.

Again, I'm not disputing that the episode was poorly-written. Just saying I think it's possible for it to be going on in the canon universe.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:31:03 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

"in this version, could reveal that the members of the Quarrymen would have taken up such a life some other way - they wouldn't have hoods and hammers, they might not even be working as a team, but they'd still be preying upon people some other way, and that the gargoyles were just the excuse for their lawless activities."

This sentence makes my head hurt. Not your fault, Todd. It just reminds me of how incredibly stupid the Quarrymen were in TGS.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:30:36 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

BISHANSKY - I've often thought the same thing. It's all the more appealing because most of the villains in the "Goliath Chronicles" (especially the Quarrymen) were after the gargoyles because of a private feud wtih them, and were endangering the human public through their fanatical recklessness spilling over(such as Castaway's heavy artillery in that episode); the human civilians were not their target. Reflecting on that, Goliath might have felt tempted to wonder whether things would be better in New York if he and the rest of the clan weren't around, and thus the Quarrymen would have no cause driving them to be out smashing everything with their hammers. And the vision Titanis showed him, in this version, could reveal that the members of the Quarrymen would have taken up such a life some other way - they wouldn't have hoods and hammers, they might not even be working as a team, but they'd still be preying upon people some other way, and that the gargoyles were just the excuse for their lawless activities.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:16:48 pm EDT from 108.226.1.5

What annoyed me most about that episode was that Goliath was lamenting gargoyles' place in the world, if anyone would notice if they were to disappear. That's not what we got, we got Goliath as a human, but gargoyles still around.

Maybe a world where the gargoyles never existed could have been what Titania could have shown him. In this world, Goliath, Brooklyn, Hudson, etc, everybody could have been human.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 4:01:06 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Brack> Which elements do you want explained? We'd be here all day if Chip and I had to type out every single thing that happened in that episode. Do you mean how it is that Goliath as a human ended up being a boring, old archivist? How it is that he was born in the wrong time period? How the clan ended up being alive and in about the same position in modern-day Manhattan, despite Goliath not being there to do the things that caused them to survive the Wyvern slaughter (sending the trio and Bronx to the rookery, taking Hudson with him to pursue the vikings)?

What specifically?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 3:58:22 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Now explain away "for it May Come True" where Goliath turns into a human. Was this a dream within in a dream. In which Goliath knows that he is dreaming inside of his dream but doesn't know that he is just dreaming the dream in the first place.
This was actually the most disappointing episode for me. Not the worst just the most disappointing because I didn't expect much from the rest of TGC. If done right the premise could have been great to watch, but the way it played out it was such a mess.
Brack
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 2:48:59 pm EDT from 98.87.147.108

I.... I don't know what to say.... I'm just stunned. xD
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 1:46:39 pm EDT from 80.187.111.12

LOL Chip!

Actually, for a while, I've entertained the possibility that TGC could very well exist in the canon universe, just being told from Goliath's perspective. It doesn't make sense to a modern viewer. Why would Castaway be presented as an honorable businessman after being arrested for firing cannons in New York, among other things? But those things don't need to make sense from the perspective of a tenth-century gargoyle. Goliath wouldn't have seen the legal twists and turns Castaway's lawyers took to get him off, and if he had seen it, he probably wouldn't have been interested. All he knows at this point is that the human world doesn't make very much sense, and that's something that's very true.

Similarly, the Marvel comics are The Elisa Chronicles. They focus more on the day-to-day crime, and the strengeness of having tenth-century creatures waking up in modern-day Manhattan that she deals with as a regular part of her life. They don't always make sense either, but that could be because of the things she hasn't seen.

And all of this comes together quite nicely to explain one (of many) aspects of TGC that's received quite a lot of criticism from fans: who WAS the assassin in the Demona/Angela episode, and what possible motivation did he have for hating gargoyles? Why, he was VR-X from the Marvel comics, of course! He used the virtual reality field to make himself appear invisible there, just as he had used it in those comics. And his reason for hunting the gargoyles was his wanting revenge on them for foiling his plans in the comics!

Ta-da!
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 1:10:46 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Spen> Dreams usually just take various stuff from your subconsious and put them together in one big mish-mosh that doesn't necessarily make logical sense.

Suddenly ALL of TGC makes PERFECT SENSE! The weird rambling monologues in Goliath's head...The Illogical trial...The Illuminati Straight out of the Simpsons...Bronx befriending an Amish kid...IT WAS ALL A DREAM!!!!

I have stated it, IT MUST BE CANON!
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 12:54:49 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Spen> Interesting. Well, I'm still at a loss as to how it came out so well. I had thought maybe that had been a dream too, but decided I needed to watch the episode again to see.

Wingless> I think what Goliath and Angela were surprised at was that Hudson called him by his first name, whereas he'd always called him "Robbins" before. I think it was another sign of how the events of the episode had strenghtened their friendship.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 11:04:22 am EDT from 173.54.75.76

I liked it better in "Bash."

;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 10:47:33 am EDT from 24.185.74.60

Spen - The "Dream" theory was how I kinda thought one could explain the "Hudson, your eye!" thing. Personally, overall I liked that particular TGC episode. One flaw was at the end when Hudson references how "Jeffery" and he took care of things, which surprise both Goliath and Angela-who both respond "Jeffrey"? Now Angela may not have met Robbins before, but Goliath and the rest of the clan had-so Goliath should not have been surprised. Despite it being a TGC episode it was nice to see the Robbins character again and his figuring out Hudson being a Gargoyle.
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 5:21:04 am EDT from 99.246.8.105

Spen> On behalf of Eric Lewald: ouch.

Matt> Okay, I think I see what you did. I'm not sure why my method doesn't work but judging by the figures you've included there a more appropriate factor for an average of 2.5 eggs would be 1.5 not 1.25. This gives a total population of 570 in present day, but the actual value could be higher if it includes non-fertile (e.g. old) individuals.
Supermorff
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 5:01:54 am EDT from 62.25.109.195

Arlo : Bates had nothing to do with either of Robbins' earlier episodes, so I rather doubt it. Actually, if my memory serves me right, that episode was written by Eric Lewald's wife. Good thing someone in the family had an iota of talent.

Greg B. : That scene was a dream, not a flashback. Dreams usually just take various stuff from your subconsious and put them together in one big mish-mosh that doesn't necessarily make logical sense. For instance, the other night I had a dream where I drove to Davenport in order to go to a building in Ft. Madision. Dreams just don't make sense.
Spen
posted @ Fri, Aug 31, 2012 3:48:59 am EDT from 69.63.7.88

Supermorff> I just made a chart by hand and filled it in. I then had each pair produce their first two eggs and only have of the pairs produce a third egg for the 2.5 calculation. So:

1518: 50
1538: 0
1558: 25
1578: 25
1598: 25
1618: 24
1638: 30

And so on. Beasts can't produce in the generation from right after they hatch so for 1658, you'd get 12 eggs for the 1618 population, 12 eggs for the 1598 population and only 6 eggs for the 1578 population because in this calculation only half of them would produce a third egg. No pairs in the 1558 population would produce an egg for the same reason. Adding it up, you'd get 30 eggs in the 1658 rookery.

I did that til I came to 1998 and got 111 beasts hatched that year. I estimated the population from there.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 7:11:23 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Supermoff> Wow, I thought every Gargoyles fan had seen TGC at least once, and then grown to hate it dreadfully.

Greg B.> Agreed, and I'm not denying that they did get things wrong in that episode. But I'm just astounded at how much they got right. I mean, if you look at the other episodes, it almost looks like they were written by people who had no familiarity with Gargoyles. "The Dying of the Light," by contrast, looks more like fanfic which, although the writing could be better, was at least written by someone who was familiar with the show, the characters, the methods of storytelling frequently employed, etc. I wonder if Cary Bates had more to do with that episode than the others, or something like that.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:49:27 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Arlo and Greg B> I've never seen that episode (or most other episodes from TGC), so I can't really comment. But I honestly thought the PIT crew was invented by the fans behind TGS.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:38:32 pm EDT from 86.135.191.239

Matt> Huh. Using an average of 2.5 eggs per pair per lifetime since 1518, I estimated a total beast population of 190. That's assuming the population increases by a factor 1.25 every 80 years over 500 years. That's obviously a very rough calculation, but I'm surprised the result is so different to yours. Using an average of 3.5 eggs, I get 1400 total population. How did you work yours out?

Xanadu Clan might have more than one rookery for beasts. Also, this comment by Greg indicates to me that they are intentionally protecting the beasts from extinction: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7313

I wonder... if they have contact with other clans (Pukhan, maybe), they might send some of their beasts to those other clans. They might send them to trusted humans as Fu-Dogs for temples or something. They might even release some into the wild. Those would all be a way of keeping the population in the clan down without limiting growth. Just a thought.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:33:41 pm EDT from 86.135.191.239

@Tess Maybe you can't Starro-Tech the mentally unstable. I would guess that The Hulk couldn't be Starro-Tech'ed either (but he's Marvel and we're talking DC, so who knows.)
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:24:02 pm EDT from 159.240.11.159

ARLO> "But the episode has other things. Like the flashback to already-established material showing how Hudson lost his eye."

I can't ever get passed the fact that in that flashback, Goliath cries out "Hudson, your eye!" 1,010 years before Hudson is named. And 625 years before Henry Hudson explores the river that will be named for him.

Not to mention that I thought the PIT Crew, especially as depicted in that episode, was just as one dimensional and lame as the TGC version of the Quarrymen. Yeah, I can buy a pro-gargoyle organization springing up, but make it more interesting than that. There are good people who happen to be Quarrymen, why wouldn't there be less than good people who would be pro-gargoyle? Like Green Peace types.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:22:16 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

My attempt to start a new discussion:

Looking back at the TGC episode "The Dying of the Light" (the one with Hudson and Robbins), I'm actually kind of astounded at all the things the writers got right in that episode. The obvious is the strengthening of Hudson and Robbins' friendship, where Robbins lets the former know he knows he's a gargoyle, and also that he isn't a biggot.

But the episode has other things. Like the flashback to already-established material showing how Hudson lost his eye. Going back to prior material to show what happened after the fact is very much "Gargoyles." Now, to be fair, they didn't show what happened after or before a certain scene like Gargoyles is known for doing, but instead, inserted a scene that hadn't originally been there. Okay, it isn't perfect. But still, a very good attempt from the writers, considering how much they got wrong throughout the rest of the season's run.

Then there's the title. "The Dying of the Light" seems very appropriate, considering the title of the episode in which they met, "A Lighthouse in a Sea of Time." In a way, the episode even strengthened Hudson and Robbins' friendship more than the parallel canon scene did, because it also dealt with Robbins being the only one who was able to help Hudson in his time of need - going through something he didn't even feel he could confide in his clan.

All very good material, and very astounding, considering how much they got wrong in the other episodes. I'm kind of wondering how they managed to pull it off.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:12:00 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

Stable or unstable... couldn't The Light just Starro-Tech Match to make him manageable?
Tess
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 2:50:55 pm EDT from 75.180.59.38

Alright, I went ahead and crunched some numbers on my own. Lets say that 50 Beasts hatched in Xanadu in 1518. That 50 represents every beast in the clan. So all they start with is 50 beasts. Lets be reasonable and account for gender inequality that might pop up, beasts that choose not to take a mate, don't have a mate available or die before they can mate, infertility and other factors and say that the average beast only parents 2.5 offspring. Remember, under ideal conditions they could have 4, so 2.5 is very limited especially among a clan that actively breeds them. With each pair producing 2.5 beasts starting from our 50 beasts hatched in 1518 we get a 1998 rookery that hatches about 110 beasts! And that isn't a total population, that is just what hatched that year. I'd estimate that under those circumstances, the total beast population in Xanadu would be at least 500 beasts.

500 beasts when being pretty conservative about growth.

If each beast parents about 3.5 hatchlings, which isn't unreasonable in a clan actively protecting and breeding their beasts, then from those same 50 hatched in 1518 the 1998 rookery would have over 1000 beast eggs in it and a total beast population of several thousand beasts.

No, sorry, it seems clear to me that unless the Xanadu Clan has a rookery cave the size of football field (with room for continued growth!) that something (intentional or not) is limiting the numbers of beast they have. Maybe it is a rule the clan enforces akin to the London Clan's limit of two eggs, maybe they are truly breeding the beasts and only allowing the best beast to parent eggs, maybe something causes significant mortality of the beasts of breeding age or younger or maybe there is some social factor at work. I wonder if beasts receiving significant training are less likely or more likely to find a mate than others for whatever reason. Or maybe Brooklyn kept getting his Fu-Dog killed and Timedanced back to Xanadu hundreds of times for replacements.

Whatever it is, without something limiting breeding, the beast population in Xanadu would quickly skyrocket.

Another thought: Just because we know that the Xanadu Clan is essentially keeping the beast species from going extinct doesn't mean they know this. For all we know they may think that every clan around the world has a beast population as large and robust as theirs. Or maybe they think they are the only clan left, in which case the gargoyles would be more in danger of extinction than the beast given their slower and less fruitful reproduction.

These are reasons I suspect that the beast population in Xanadu is around the same number as the gargoyle population. And that both populations are roughly stable in number due to some unknown factors, but likely including some form of population control.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:44:03 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Again, this is all speculation, but:

New Olympian Clan- Potentially quite large because it has been isolated for around two thousand years, and they have no enimies who would destroy them while they slept.

Loch Ness Clan- Again, could be very large based on the fact that they have probably been left alone for around one thousand years (based on Demona saying her clan was the last clan in Scotland).

Pukhan Clan- We know nothing about this clan other than they are located in Korea and they protect their concept of justice.

Xanadu Clan- Like many of you, I think that the gargoyle and beast populations are very similar in size, the actual number is impossible to determine.

Ishimura Clan- Although one of the oldest clan (as speculated in by GargWiki), I don't think this clan has been isolated that long. We know they fought alongside the samurai, and given that the samurai era in Japan ended in the late 19th century, I think that is a decent guess as to when the Clan settled in Ishimura, so maybe they have only been isolated for a little over one hundred years. Not enough time in my mind to be a huge clan like the London Clan.

Just my thoughts.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:09:27 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Matt> I'll admit I'm not an expert, so your analysis might be right on the money, although my gut says that there's a difference between dogs that can produce around 6 offspring twice a year and gargoyle beasts that can produce at most 1 offspring every twenty years. We also don't know what the life expectancy is around Xanadu. It might be a mistake to assume that their gargoyle beasts all survive to produce their fourth egg.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 8:06:40 am EDT from 62.25.109.195

Ask a breeder of a rare type of dog if they let their animals breed out of control. They may very well be one of the few breeders of that type of animal and saving it from extinction, but that doesn't mean they let the animals breed unchecked.

In Xanadu, the situation is the same except that the need to remain undetected by the outside world and the local resources puts further limits of growth. Beasts can be relatively prolific breeders if given a chance. An extra egg and an earlier start might not sound like much, but do the math yourself: a few centuries of unchecked breeding by a modest number of beasts would mean a population in the hundreds or thousands. Beasts may well outnumber gargoyles in Xanadu, but I seriously doubt they are allowed to reproduce unchecked.

As for New Olympus vs. Ishimura, we just don't have enough information. The point is that both are potentially large, full clans. Their numbers probably don't differ all that much either way.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:38:34 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

I also assumed that beasts outnumbered gargoyles at Xanadu. I am fairly certain they wouldn't restrict the beasts' population, because why would they do that if they're breeding them and trying to protect them from extinction?
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 3:22:16 am EDT from 86.182.109.151

Yes we were talking about after the eggs hatch in 1998. Plus I have to agree that Thanatos would probably be biggest. Only because, even though they have isolated themselves, the gargoyles are still accepted on New Olympus. Not to say that aren't accepted in Ishimura. However when other humans happen upon them in the day, they are passed off as statues. On Thanatos they are their own society and all Olympians aware of what they truly are (not monsters). It's just my opinion but I think that makes them more comfortable having a bigger clan.
Brack
posted @ Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:27:24 am EDT from 98.87.147.108

Popping in here but I always assumed the Thanatos clan would have the greatest number - both for their isolation and the fact that mountains are big, y'all! The rest I can't comment on except the Mayan clan - are you all counting eggs? b/c I thought otherwise it was just 4 adults that survived...
and the London Clan - aren't they located in a suburb? In which case how do they keep humans from randomly wandering on the property (let alone have access to food). Wards? And if so, who set them up, and when?
FTBM2010
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:58:53 pm EDT from 74.115.160.151

Matt> Except, how do you know what kind of resources New Olympus has? I kinda think that they have enough to handle a huge gargoyle clan. True, this is based solely on observations of their one episode, but your argument that they have limited resources doesn't make sense to me, considering their advanced technology .

The beast thing I will concede is a pure gut instinct. I have no logical reason for it...It just FEELS right, that in Xanadu beast outnumber gargoyles. Also, considering proximity to Xanadu, I'd be very surprised if the Pukhan Clan had 0 beasts. Even if they're not in touch in the modern era, at some point...
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:11:43 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Thank you for you input everyone. I was figuring all the hidden clans had over 200 members each just because they haven't been discovered yet and were probably living rather peacefully. I didn't even think they may be using "birth control" like the London clan is. However this makes a lot of sense when considering available space, and trying to keep their clans a secret. I was thinking that Ishimura had between between 100 and 150 members just because of the fact that Taro managed to move them all in a day. However this helps me out greatly with the numbers that have been rattling around in my head so thank you again.
Brack
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 10:16:29 pm EDT from 98.87.147.108

Chip> How can you be 100% certain about something we have no knowledge about? Has Greg been telling you something he hasn't told us?

Anyway, you may well be right on both points. Hard to say. They were only my guesses really. I did consider that the beast population in Xanadu might outnumber the gargoyle population, but in the end I made them fairly close in number. As for Ishimura vs. New Olympus, they also are both full clans, but I think that the relatively small amount of space and resources on New Olympus forces them to keep their numbers a bit lower. And don't forget that Greg has said that the New Olympus Clan is isolationist even by New Olympian standards.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 8:52:39 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

Wow, sounds like Natalee has a little crush on the Tini-man.

How come Ducktales got 100 episodes, but Gargoyles only got 66? No fair!
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 7:08:56 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

@Arlo Ducktales is on three volumes containing episodes 1-75. Episodes 76 - 100 are not on DVD. This is what they said:

Dear Tony,

We are delighted to have received your recent email and we appreciate
your interest in DisneyStore.com. Regrettably we do not have that movie
available on our website at this. However, I am happy to inform you that
we do upgrade our website frequently, you may continue to check our
website to see if the item will come available.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have further questions. We
look forward to future opportunities to be of service to you.

Sincerely,
Natalee
Have A Magical Day!!!! as

The DisneyStore.com Team

So as you can see it's a very generic / boiler plate / scripted e-mail. Also, I asked about more volumes / episodes, not a movie. :-/

So again, to not have the "tentative plans in 2012" in the above e-mail is slightly hopeful concerning Gargoyles.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:28:38 pm EDT from 50.29.205.45

Matt> Your reasoning is fairly sound, but I disagree on two points. Point one: that Ishimura is the largest clan. I suspect that the largest clan is in fact Mt. Thanatos. Just due to the general lack of interference. They may not head into New Olympus proper much these days, but they hardly need to worry about outgrowing Thanatos like the London Clan does. Theoretically, overflow could spill into the city.

Point 2) Even if I'm wrong on the above point, I am 100 percent positive that in Xanadu, the Beasts outnumber the regular Gargoyles. By a significant amount.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com]
The premise of your question is flawed. You were never human. But you WERE heroes.~~Red Tornado
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 4:37:12 pm EDT from 24.217.38.192

Well, just for fun I called Disney again, didn't mention "Gargoyles" but asked if they plan to release "Buzz Lightyear of Star Command" on DVD. They said they have no current plans.

Hmm...
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 4:21:23 pm EDT from 24.185.74.60

Anthony Tini> Interesting. What did their response say?

I thought Ducktales was already released on DVD. They have up to Season 3 on Amazon. Maybe that tipped them off to the fact that you were trying to pull a sting operation so they deliberately didn't send you the same e-mail just to trip you up?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 4:19:41 pm EDT from 173.54.75.76

My guesses on gargoyle population in 1998 (post-hatching):

London Clan - 220 Gargoyles, 0 Beasts
Ishimura Clan - 250 Gargoyles, 45 Beasts
Mayan Clan - 30 Gargoyles, 5 Beasts
Pukhan Clan - 175 Gargoyles, 0 Beasts
Xanadu Clan - 175 Gargoyles, 125 Beasts
Loch Ness Clan - 125 Gargoyles, 0 Beasts
New Olympian Clan - 200 Gargoyles, 40 Beasts
Avalon Clan - 32 Gargoyles, 3 Beasts
Manhattan Clan - 11 Gargoyles, 2 Beasts
Labyrinth Clan - 4 Gargoyles, 0 Beasts

Total Population - 1222 Gargoyles, 220 Beasts

I think that London, Ishimura, Pukhan, Xanadu, Loch Ness and New Olympus are all "full clans". I also think that they are all taking steps similiar to the London Clan in controlling their population (and in Xanadu, the population of the beasts as well). Whether this is akin to enforced isolation during the female's final heat as in London or some other method, I don't know, but for their safety and survival population control seems to be a must. In the old days, the clan could split and colonize new lands like the Wyvern Clan did between 988 and 994, but in modern times there is no where to go that is safe and a ballooning clan risks drawing attention (not to mention leading to a lot of mouths to feed).

Because of these reasons, I suspect that the Ishimura Clan has grown to be the largest. Because the local humans know of them and are trusted friends, their risk is the smallest. The situation is similiar on New Olympus except that there is more limited space and resources.

By 2018, when the next clutch of eggs hatch around the world, I think that the situation will change dramatically. For one thing, I suspect that the Camelot Clan will have been founded by that time, and perhaps the Wyvern Clan as well. Several clans that have been limiting their growth, especially the London Clan, will not do so in 2008. So their rookeries will be significantly larger than they had been and many gargoyles will move to help found the Camelot Clan and bolster the numbers of the weaker clans. In fact, given that by 2198 there will be three new clans and Greg has said that by that time all the world's clans are "full clans", I doubt there will be much population control for the next couple centuries at least. The end of the 20th century may represent the lowest gargoyle population numbers and their closest brush with extinction.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 2:06:47 pm EDT from 99.92.109.252

I have a feeling that there are not more than 600 Gargoyles left in the world, maybe even less. I don't count the mutates since these are no Gargoyles, but the clones count.
About beasts: maybe 50, not more than 100. Most of them in the Xanadu Clan.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:34:36 am EDT from 80.187.110.180

I e-mailed Disney about "Ducktales" just to see if I got a boiler plate response saying "Thank for your interest in Ducktales. Currently, we have tentative plans..." but I did not, so that made me happy. With that said, the Ducktales e-mail made me a little more hopeful for Gargoyles DVD this year, but we're talking about my hope increasing from 5% to 5.1%.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 10:41:25 am EDT from 159.240.11.159

Brack- I think you are high on the number of Gargoyles in 1998. Of the 10 exsisting clans, we know the numbers of 5 of them. Between those clans, I come up with 221 for the London clan, 24 to 44 (unknown number of beasts) for the Mayan clan, 32 and 3 beasts for the Avalon clan, 12 and 2 beasts for the Manhattan clan, and 8 (counting Talon and Maggie's baby) for the Labyrinth clan.
That is less than 320 gargoyles and probably less than 10 beasts for those 5 clans. By your numbers, that would leave the remaining clans needing to average nearly 400 members each get the 2250 you suggest. And based on the size that I think Ishimura is, I don't think they have much more than 100 gargoyles.

But then again, without knowing how large the other clans are, it is pure guess work trying to figure out the worldwide gargoyle population. Just my opinion.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 10:00:37 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

I think that the "tentative plans" were probably Disney's way of hoping to quiet people bombarding them with requests about further "Gargoyles" DVDs. (And let's be glad that, in these days of e-mail, we're in no danger of getting a note accidentally included in the reply saying "Send this pest the usual Gargoyles letter".)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:28:00 am EDT from 108.226.1.5

There's not a lot of 2012 left so I hope Disney's "tentative" plans firm up pretty soon. Gonna stick with Color: Green here since "skeptical" is not an option.

Meanwhile, the ENTIRE collection of all ten seasons of TMNT is coming in a DVD box set in November for under $100. At least someone knows how to release a series on DVD.
Patrick
posted @ Wed, Aug 29, 2012 12:21:24 am EDT from 76.190.228.74

I realize that this has probably been discussed before, but I was wondering what are people's thoughts about the size of the Gargoyle population in 1998. I was playing around with numbers for each of the clans and I came up with a world population of about 2250 gargoyles and about 200 beast, with New Olympus having the biggest gargoyle clan and Xanadu obviously having the most beast. Like I said I would love to hear other estimates and ideas.
Brack
posted @ Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:59:46 pm EDT from 98.87.147.108

Alright, a couple of weeks after saying I would, here is my facebook page for my pictures of the UK. Although not all of them have been uploaded, I thought some of you would like to see them. So here they are:

http://www.facebook.com/elise.thordarson/photos#!/adam.carlson.311/photos
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:24:26 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

I got my reply from Disney today. As expected, they said this:

Dear Helen,

Thank you for taking the time to contact us! We truly appreciate your interest in Gargoyles.

At this time, we have a 2012 tentative release set. Although there is no additional information currently available, we would be more than happy to share this great suggestion with the rest of our team for future consideration! We truly appreciate the feedback from all of our guests!

You may also be interested in visiting our website at www.disneydvd.com for updates and new title announcements.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to reply to this email. You may also contact us at 1-800-723-4763 (Canada: 1-888-877-2843), Monday 9:30-7:30 and Tuesday through Friday 9:30-6:30 CST.

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I'm disappointed, although I'd expected as much. As I said before, please e-mail Disney at disneyinfo@disneyhelp.com, and tell them you and everyone else want GARGOYLES BACK! I'm sure if they hear enough voices, they can get the rest of Season 2 out. I don't care about Season 3 that much, since it noncanon to the actual series and I have in my possession the comics from the beloved Greg Weisman. But Season Two Volume Two is something I want and need as a Gargoyles fan.

So, please e-mail them, everyone. I don't want to lose whatever chance we have. According to the e-mail, they're still thinking about, so let's us fans help them make up their minds a bit quicker. If they know that us Gargoyles fans want the DVDs, then they'll release, so e-mail them and tell all your friends to do the same.

Call me naive or this attempt futile, I don't care as long as there is a chance. I'm the type that's dedicated to fight for what I want. So, I'm going to send a reply to Disney about my thoughts and feelings.

So, please e-mail Disney and support our beloved Gargoyles by sending a message to Disney at disneyinfo@disneyhelp.com, please. :)
NinjaSheik
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 12:55:46 pm EDT from 68.11.88.99

Double Post, sorry: I always thought that was a mustache, but I guess I see how it could be his hair flying back. The one in the second picture looks different, though, but they're probably all related.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 10:07:22 am EDT from 75.76.235.156

Comet: Yeah, that's who I was talking about. I figured they just took Brooklyn's design and tweaked it a bit.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 10:05:28 am EDT from 75.76.235.156

It's hard to make out his head/beak so I'm not sure if he is the same garg or not. The wings do look like Brooklyns, but his body type is completely different more stork like. I've been calling him BrooksCuz.
Brack
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 9:12:41 am EDT from 98.240.99.242

What about this one in the background?

http://dtaina.lurkingfish.com/bellegarg3/Screenshots/GS01/01-055.jpg
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 8:52:58 am EDT from 170.112.1.251

Yes I've gotten use to just calling him BrooksPa
Brack
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 8:38:52 am EDT from 98.240.99.242

Jurgan> Who is "mustachioed Brooklyn"? Are you talking about this one?
http://imageshack.us/m/189/8163/01066q.jpg
That is his hair, but I'm asking myself the same question xD
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 8:05:13 am EDT from 80.187.97.165

"They hunted me for TEN centuries. It's time to put an end to it!"
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 7:58:16 am EDT from 50.29.205.45

Nine hundred and seventy-five YEARS?!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Hey, hey, mama said the way you move, gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove..." - Led Zeppelin
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 6:14:46 am EDT from 66.91.223.104

"Of course, the real prizes are the EIGHT DNA samples collected here." -- Thailog ("Bash")
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 2:10:06 am EDT from 68.231.75.202

(7th)Seventh!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 2:02:16 am EDT from 108.70.220.235

"I count thirty-SIX, mama." -Tom
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 1:00:37 am EDT from 99.92.109.252

I wonder if "mustachioed Brooklyn" from the opening is biologically related to Brooklyn- perhaps his father? (Yes, I know it doesn't matter to them)
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 12:38:03 am EDT from 75.76.235.156

I hope that Greg is able to one day do a mini-series or a direct to video movie about the dark ages. It would be great to finally see these characters get fleshed out some what. Especially since everyone has different ideas on how the old Wyvern clan was related to each other. I know that the Gargoyles don't care about lineage, but I think a lot of people would like to learn more about the clans biological connections.
One thing I noticed about the "Awakening" Gargoyles is that the majority of them seem to either have white hair or are bald. I wonder if white hair is a common hair color among the clan or if the ones shown are older(middle aged). Story wise this could make sense, with many of the younger clan members breaking off to start a new clan .
Brack
posted @ Mon, Aug 27, 2012 12:24:11 am EDT from 98.87.147.108

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