I'm afraid I've been much slower on my marathoning of Gargoyles (averaging about one episode a day).

I will say that my most recent watches of "The Edge" and "Long Way Till Morning" are phenomenally strong episodes, its just an utter delight revisiting these characters again. For "The Edge" in particular, I loved the attention to detail when the Goliath, Xanatos, and others are battling atop of the Statue of Liberty and you can hear the copper vibrate beneath their feet. d:
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Nov 24, 2019 9:52:24 pm EST from 68.231.126.227

Rewatched "The Price" on DVD today, but I'm saving my comments for Monday morning, after the room clears.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Nov 24, 2019 6:49:47 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)
Jordan
posted @ Sun, Nov 24, 2019 2:54:51 pm EST from 51.68.205.163

M.I.A. ends with a group of punks telling someone to “go back where you came from” and “keep England pure.” You know those guys voted for Brexit. I’m sure that fascist rhetoric went over my head as a kid, but it’s chilling today. As Griff points out after scaring off the punks, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 24, 2019 2:12:53 pm EST from 174.237.9.100

CHIROPTER> I thought you were talking about Boomerang for a sec.
Algae
"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Sun, Nov 24, 2019 9:35:52 am EST from 86.45.213.181

So, anyone else watch The Dragon Prince season 3 and notice a particularly familiar bit of symbolism in one episode?

I definitely do wonder if someone on the team was inspired by Gargoyles for that scene. Not that I would say it being an homage is incontrovertible - [SPOILER] a fantasy-setting character being turned to stone in a tragic moment and shedding a single tear before petrifying completely [/SPOILER] is something I could see people coming up with independently - but if it was it was a very nice touch. And still very effective regardless.
Chiropter
posted @ Sat, Nov 23, 2019 11:39:21 pm EST from 68.38.20.44

I visited the "Keep Bingeing Gargoyles" twitter page, and noticed a few more new pieces of fanart - including a cute one of the trio as hatchlings, and another of Demona meeting Negaduck, with a "villain team-up in the works" tone. (Well, it wouldn't be his first one, given that he partnered with Magica de Spell in the comic book - or his first "Gargoyles" encounter in light of [SPOILER] the moment, also in the comic book, when he was perched on what looked like Goliath - though, given how they did that scene, it'd have been appropriate if it was really Thailog [/SPOILER].)

I still wonder how many of the people who've been watching "Gargoyles" on Disney+ are familiar with the show - watched it back in the 90's - and how many are just encountering it. I hope a sizable percentage fall into the latter category.)

JURGAN - While "Protection" isn't one of my favorites either, I get a kick out of the interaction between the gargoyles and Dracon - especially when Tony, after his "she's your woman" line, starts patting Goliath on the shoulder, then hurriedly withdraws his hand when Goliath glares at him, or Glasses and Pal Joey's response upon finding the gargoyles in Tony's hotel room - "They're everywhere!" (Not to mention Pal Joey's response at discovering that he's just been partnered with the gargs.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 23, 2019 7:01:49 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Thoughts on a few recently watched episodes:

"Protection" is not particularly well-loved, and for me it's because it has what Roger Ebert called an Idiot Plot: The plot only works because everyone acts like an idiot. Elisa doesn't talk to the clan for days to let them know what's going on. I could believe that if they were in the castle, but all she had to do was pop upstairs at the beginning or end of her shift. Dracon's fall is because he's stupid enough to threaten people with no ambiguity in front of a known cop. Most of all, Chavez's plan fails spectacularly. She fully intends for Dracon to attack the store and then is caught completely off-guard when he does. Why wasn't there anyone else keeping an eye on them in anticipation of a bombing? They only survive because Broadway shows up, which she knew nothing about. This episode also has a weird subplot about a jalapeno jar in order to justify the show's fake curse word. And there's an animation error at the end where Elisa's changes clothes between shots at the clock tower. Still, I don't hate this one. As has often been observed, Goliath treats the term "protection racket" as full-on blasphemy. Elisa showing a new side of herself is fun- I hope the pool hall owner was in on the plan and didn't just get attacked with no warning. And I like the gargoyles' interaction with Dracon, and how quickly he adjusts to the weirdness. I wonder if Dracon's family name was originally Draconi, and Dominic or someone else changed it because of anti-Italian bigotry. One other thing I really don't understand is Goliath's line that "gargoyle justice is not human justice." Gargoyles traditionally banished their criminals. Lifting people up high and dropping them is more like Augusto Pinochet justice.

The Cage: Derek is so gullible. I can forgive a lot, but the line "I had no idea YOU'RE HELPING HIM" makes me want to respond with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qileP4bAzek I've also noticed some odd animation in this and Upgrade, like the character outlines are too thick and the faces sometimes are misshapen. Also, I never noticed this before, but Fang, Claw, and Maggie attack the clocktower yet when they leave Talon is shown instead of Fang. This episode is also a bit flashback-heavy. I like the story of this episode. There's a recurring theme in Greg's stories that the need for revenge becomes self-sustaining even after the reason for it is gone. Jon Canmore wants revenge for Jason's death and continues even after he finds out Jason is alive. Eddie Brock hates Peter Parker for seemingly abandoning Curt Connors, then finds out he didn't because he was Spider-Man but it doesn't change anything. And Derek believes Goliath destroyed his chance at a cure, then finds out Sevarius never had a cure, but he's too blinded by rage to reconsider the circumstances. But in the end, he realizes the truth, and his reunion with the Mazas is very sweet. There's also a theme of protecting people from the harsh truth, which is shown to be wrong (Christopher Nolan would disagree). Elisa tells Goliath she's been hiding what happened to Derek from her parents, then Goliath tells her the mutates are back with Xanatos and she gets mad at him for not telling her the truth. I don't think she even notices the hypocrisy.

The Price: I still like it, except I feel the "Broadway turns to stone mid-air and Elisa saves him" bit is really contrived. I'd think he'd feel it coming in enough time to glide to ground, like when an epileptic feels a seizure coming and rushes to a couch. And he must have been going straight up when the sun rose. I also think this episode contributed to the "immortality confusion" around Macbeth and Demona. They know Macbeth and Demona have lived a long time, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're unkillable (and I contend that the "both die together" is more a prophecy than some aspect of their magic connection- I wrote an essay about this a while back that got published at gargoyles-fans.org). But when did the clan learn about their immortality? Demona obviously told Brooklyn some of the story in Temptation, but I can't imagine she mentioned Macbeth. That part doesn't really make her look good. Greg says the Weird Sisters eventually filled them in on Avalon, but that's really unclear from the show itself.

Side note: Last week, when I was binging through S1, I was discussing it with someone online. They said "I'm thinking about getting D+ just for that show." I said do it, and they responded "don't tempt me." Then I looked at the screen and the episode title "Temptation" popped up. It was pretty funny.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 23, 2019 10:33:15 am EST from 174.28.6.34

Yes, the flashback in "Outfoxed" did strike me as a bit long when I rewatched it earlier this week. (Greg Weisman admitted that in his ramble on the episode.)

I rewatched "The Cage" on DVD today. The one new observation I had about it was during the family meal in the opening scene, where Elisa jokes about having webbed feet and Peter Maza adds "And a great duck impression" followed by a "quack, quack". I wondered whether that was intended as a hommage to the "duck cartoons" on the Disney Afternoon, both "Duck Tales" and "Darkwing Duck".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 22, 2019 7:19:20 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

JURGAN> If I recall correctly, Toon Disney DID pull Outfoxed from rotation for a while, along with Upgrade.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Nov 22, 2019 1:51:03 pm EST from 40.131.43.180

Watching Outfoxed, and it just occurred to me how awkward a plot about crashing an airship into a New York tower is today. With all the edits Toon Disney made post 9/11 (not even letting them use the word “terrorist” accurately) it’s kind of surprising this one wasn’t touched. Upgrade got pulled entirely because of the visual of a collapsing building.

This episode has some flaws. It’s padded to hell with a 90 second recap in mid-episode. Also Goliath’s arc from “it’s not my fault” to “I accept full responsibility” is pretty rushed, though as he says, he wasn’t starting from scratch. Still, that lesson was important to me as a child. I remember once breaking something by accident and trying to tell my dad what happened while avoiding the blame for it, and thinking about this episode is what made me stop making excuses and own up to it.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 22, 2019 11:21:50 am EST from 174.28.6.34

PHOENICIAN - I've seen excerpts from "Once and Future" at Comics Continuum's site, and it looked interesting. I haven't read more than those "sample pages" (no comic stores within easy access), so I'll have to hope that a "trade paperback" version comes out. (And, yes, the glimpses that I got indicated a very different take on King Arthur indeed.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Nov 22, 2019 7:59:40 am EST from 68.231.65.221

Actually, in the midst of all these Comment Room crashes, I've been wanting to write about a new comic book series I'm actually four months late on -- Once & Future written by Kieron Gillen (who has written tons, but I most recently recall his Star Wars Doctor Aphra comics). I don't want to give away and spoilers, but as the title suggests, the comic dives right into the Arthurian mythos, albeit with some serious, er, 'gut-punches' (again, don't want to spoil).

Like Gargoyles, the comic feels heavily researched in the mythos, which has made the story all the more entertaining when characters start wrapping about their heads about whats 'real' (let alone 'true'), with one character, in particular, being very genre-savvy, lol. That said, while rooted in the legends, the interpretations in Once & Future couldn't be anymore different from the Pendragon that Elisa woke up on Avalon in 1996. d:

I was initially bummed to only recently dive into the six-issue arc (my comic shop thankfully had seventh and third printings of the first two issues available), but just today I learned that Boom! is going to make it an on-going series. https://www.previewsworld.com/Article/233297-Kieron-Gillen-and-Dan-Moras-Once--Future-Promoted-to-Ongoing-Series (also technically old news, but I've already admitted to being late to the party).
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Nov 21, 2019 11:13:18 pm EST from 68.231.126.227

Sorry for the triple post (I don't know if the silence since my post last evening has been due to the comment room continuing to go down - it went down this morning again - or not), but I rewatched "Protection" on DVD today.

It recently occurred to me that Demona would not be pleased about the timing of this incident. She'd have eagerly seen it as an opportunity to convince Goliath at last how thoroughly corrupt humanity was - Elisa apparently turning "crooked cop" - proof at last that what she'd been saying about humans was true. And it happened while she was being taken away to Avalon. She missed it. She'd probably have failed anyway - Goliath believed that Elisa was under a magic spell, while Broadway correctly figured out that it was all a ruse to take down Dracon, showing once again what a head he's got for the "police vs. mundane crime" side of things - but I can just see her, once she'd found out about this incident, cursing the Weird Sisters and the Archmage for pulling her away.

I've probably mentioned this before, but Dracon's "She's your woman" remark to Goliath ties in with Greg Weisman's remark that it seemed everyone was picking up on Goliath and Elisa's feelings for each other.

One detail I forgot to mention from "Upgrade" - at the very end, as the gargoyles are taking their places, ready to turn to stone, Hudson pats Bronx on the head. It's a sweet little moment - and poignant, in hindsight, given that the two will be parted for a while, just a few episodes later.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 21, 2019 7:15:34 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Should be "25th *anniversary* revisiting".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 7:39:51 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

I'd forgotten about the guy, but recall now some discussion of him here once his name popped up in the news. Greg Weisman mentioned him, as well, in his ramble on "Double Jeopardy".

Rewatched "Upgrade" on DVD today. This time around, the title struck me as not only matching the Pack (who got the obvious upgrade), but also Brooklyn, who got promoted to second-in-command in this episode. (Brooklyn was the more fortunate - his promotion didn't come with any sacrifice of his "gargoyleness".)

He shows his leadership skills here as well - making it clear that he was the right choice. He recognizes, during the gargoyles' fight with the Pack at the start of the episode, that tending to a wounded Goliath is more important than pursuing the fleeing Pack. And he's the one who comes up with the plan to defeat the Pack and rescue Goliath, Elisa, Hudson, and Bronx.

While I've been noting the "animal and hunting" imagery used for the gargoyles in the series during my 25th revisiting, this is the first time that anyone actually dares talk about *eating* the gargoyles - Dingo's remark to Wolf "I hope you're not planning to eat your catch" and Hyena's "I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken". Up till now, the humans going after gargoyles had other reasons for hunting them - wanting to control them and use them (Xanatos), sport (the Pack in their first appearance), revenge (the Hunters, especially Gillecomgain - I found myself seeing a parallel between his pursuit of Demona and Captain Ahab's pursuit of Moby Dick - in both cases, the human hunter is out to avenge a physical injury with lasting visible traces - facial scars for Gillecomgain, a miassing leg for Ahab) - but this is the first time that there's any suggestion of hunting gargoyles for food. And, naturally, it'd be Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf who'd be crazy enough to take that approach.

When the trio are all boasting about how many crimes they'd foiled, Broadway lists the most, saying "You just have to know where to look". This time, I saw in his remark an echo of his interests in detective work in "The Silver Falcon", and which we'll see again in "Protection" - the very next episode.

(And Bronx, for once, acts like a more conventional "cartoon mascot" in his response to the trio's arguing - groans and covers his ears with his front paws.)

Returning to the "animal iamgery" used on gargoyles - Hyena calls Lexington a "flying rat". (With his response being "That's Mr. Flying Rat.")

Dingo unsettledly refers to the rest of the Pack as "going Frankenstein on me". Given "Gargoyles"' habit of bringing in whatever mythical/legendary/fictional figures they refer to, I wonder whether we might have someday seen the gargoyles encounter the Frankenstein monster (though, in a sense, they did - or rather, his analogy as Coldstone).

At the end, Brooklyn, after being made second-in-command, tells Goliath "I'm in no hurry to take over". The guy has no idea what's waiting just a few episodes away....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 7:24:52 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

BRAINIAC> This is what happens when you give your kid a name that makes them sound like a supervillain.
Algae
"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 4:58:52 pm EST from 86.45.213.181

Jurgan> If you thought Severino Antinori was setting off danger signals back in the early 2000s, you haven't heard what's been going on over the last few years.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36293549
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2018/07/20/antinori-acquitted-no-egg-trafficking_2ad4c9e6-00f9-466c-a1ce-3acc11bc7957.html

So, yeah. That's a thing. Another fertility doctor claimed Antinori held a gun to his head, but the only source I found for that was an interview on the Daily Mail's website, so take that with as much salt as you feel justified.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 11:26:59 am EST from 104.129.205.35

Good to have the room up again; it went down in the later part of yesterday evening, and was down again this morning. It also went down on Monday evening, and last Saturday evening. Does anyone know: a) why it keeps doing that, and b) more importantly, how to solve the problem?

JURGAN - I'd also wondered if Sevarius' accent from Tim Curry had something to do with how the dates were written. As I mentioned, I hadn't spotted that before - I suspect that one thing that helped me notice it was my having a strong interest in the differences between American English and British English.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 10:54:44 am EST from 68.231.65.221

Good thoughts on Double Jeopardy, another old favorite of mine. Since Tim Curry is British, I suppose Sevarius is as well, so it makes sense he'd use British dating protocol. Then again, "Sevarius" sounds Italian and his accent jumps all over the place- in Metamorphosis it sounds maybe Hungarian, though I don't know why I think that as I'm no expert. I still remember that bizarre story in the early 2000's about an Italian scientist named Severino Antoniri who was working with cloning.

Little things I appreciate are that Xanatos built his fortune from a $20,000 windfall, and Thailog demands exactly 1000 times that. He'd probably kill you if you said he was just copying Xanatos, but it's pretty obvious. I know when I first watched this, I mentally spelled his name "Phaelog," and once I realized the correct spelling I thought it was kind of cheesy. Still do, to be honest. I also thought the secret society was spelled "Alu Minadi."

I also like that Xanatos suspects Renard might be responsible for the kidnapping. This sort of brazen corporate espionage and theft doesn't sound like something he'd do, but as Elisa pointed out, the corrupt are the first to believe others can be corrupted.

Evil is petty. Thailog's entire motive for hating Goliath is "it took you a whole minute to accept me as part of your family." It's pretty obvious he was just looking for any excuse. This is not a complaint- teal evil is petty and banal, and too many superhero shows glorify their villains.

Watching through City of Stone right now. I just noticed that in part 3, Bodhe lays out a parchment on a table and shows Macbeth where their forces are, but the parchment is completely blank. I guess it's just an animation error, but it made me laugh.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 20, 2019 10:11:24 am EST from 174.28.6.34

Thanks. I'll have to see about that. At least I can tell where they'd go (there's a port in the front of the computer with a headphones symbol just above it).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 9:18:59 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Hmm, a pair of headphones should be able to get around it. If you have a USB port on the computer, you can just plug them in.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 9:14:38 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

I don't know. The reason why I don't have audio any more is that, when I moved a few years ago, the cord that needed to be plugged into the computer for sound apparently didn't get packed with everything else, and I'm not enough of a computer expert to know how to get it replaced. I've been focused so much on other things, too, that I haven't given it enough thought - so far, sound on my computer has felt more like a luxury than a necessity.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 9:04:13 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

TODD> Would a pair of headphones fix the issue?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 8:57:19 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

And there's no closed-captioning on that link, so I'll have to wait until my computer has audio again. Pity.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 7:40:16 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

BISHANSKY - No, but thanks for the link. (Unfortunately, my computer no longer has audio these days - long story - so I'll have to watch it with the captions on, and hope they come out well; some of YouTube's captions haven't been that great.) Any particular information you'd advise me to look out for?

Rewatched "Double Jeopardy" today.

I mentioned in my thoughts on "Revelations" about how Matt and Elisa are, at one point, driving along a road by the coast, far from the city. Now Elisa's doing it near the start of this episode, though without Matt - this time, we've an explanation (a phony warning, arranged by Thailog, about an impending disaster at a power plant). (Are there any power plants near Manhattan you'd need to reach by such a road?)

Sevarius tells the mercenaries who "kidnapped" Thailog that they'll soon get the rest of what's coming to them - given that we never hear from them again (Greg Weisman even mentioned that in a memo), and given Thailog's nature, I can't help suspecting a darker fulfilment of that promise.

Broadway tells Elisa, as he and Lexington set off to investigate at Gen-U-Tech, "We're on the case". His choice of words makes me wonder if this is another sign of his interest in detective work.

One thing I hadn't spotted before: all the dates on Sevarius's video documentary about Thailog are given in British format: i.e., the day comes first, then the month, as in "15 NOV". (In American format, the month comes first, then the day - so, for example, today would be written as "November 19" in the U.S., but as "19 November" in the UK.) Not something you often see on American television.

And, yes, Thailog indeed shows himself to be a "chip off the old block" - just as Xanatos was audacious enough to "set up his own assassination attempt" in "Her Brother's Keeper", so Thailog, just as audacious, sets up his own abduction and ransoming. He definitely got off to a big start.

As I mentioned once, this is the last time we see Xanatos coming up with a new scheme to create his own gargoyles; after that, he'll make use of the leftovers from previous schemes (the Steel Clan, the Mutates in "The Cage"), but no new attempts. Of course, I don't think there were that many ways of coming up with "artificial gargoyles" left by that time (he'd used robotics, genetic engineering, cloning, even a kind of cyborg-undead gargoyle) - but I still see his remark about "no copy could live up to the original" as an acknowledgement of the drawback of those schemes. (Not to mention, as Greg pointed out, when I commented on that at "Ask Greg", that given the way Thailog turned out....)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 7:23:30 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

JURGEN> I don't think Othello would be true to the spirit of his Shakesperean namesake if he didn't have really bad judgement.
Algae
"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 4:23:43 pm EST from 86.45.213.181

Todd> Ever watched the 2014 CONvergence Gargoyles Q&A with Greg Weisman, Frank Paur, Greg Guler, Marina Sirtis, Christopher Jones, and Karine Charlebois?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=vOpSsov-eDc
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 1:28:21 pm EST from 174.242.130.68

JURGAN - I'm sorry to hear that Disney +, as well as the DVD, uses the original ending of "Vows". At least Bishansky put the corrected version up on YouTube. (As I said last week, it's one of two things I miss about my old "Gargoyles" VHS tapes - in most cases, the DVD version tops them, but they had the corrected ending.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 7:42:16 am EST from 68.231.65.221

JURGAN> I'm not sure I would say that Othello regresses because, let's face it, his situation was constantly changing and he's (failing) to adapt.

Reawakening> We see that he's not as gung-ho about protecting the castle as Goliath and Hudson are. He's smashed, resurrected, and Demona completely gaslights him.

Legion> He'd have rejoined the clan right there and then had the virus not brought Desdemona and Iago to the surface, at which point he was so confused, clouded and messed up, he was easy to manipulate... but ultimately he trusted his heart and did the right thing.

High Noon> Othello is alone with his lady love, they know they are dead... after everything they've just been through, he just wants to bask in her company. I get it, I do. Desdemona (with help from the Weird Sisters doing some gaslighting of their own) talks him into taking control of the body. From here on out, he decides that Iago is the danger that he wants to keep his clan safe from.

Reunion> Othello is so committed to keeping his clan safe from Iago, he does so in very ruthless means and nearly kills Elisa in the process... who, let's be honest, at this point he is most likely barely aware of. He really just met her for the first time at the end of "High Noon".

Possession> Wow, what a gift! To be granted new life! New life! Why you almost want to keep it... and when you don't realize you're being subtly manipulated by someone who knows just which of your buttons to press... combined with the euphoria of life. I think most of us would be tempted. And, let's be honest, Desdemona was tempted to, yeah she was pointing out that it would have been wrong, but pretty half-heartedly.

As of Clan Building, the only warning signs we have are that Xanatos was so easily able to summon them and use them as his pawns. He didn't deactivate any trackers inside them like he did with Coldsteel... but yeah. I wouldn't call Othello a reluctant hero because I just wouldn't call him a hero. He's capable of occasionally being heroic while also being more of an every man among the gargoyles... and easily influenced despite his stubborn behavior. So for now, I think it's a good think he's among positive influences, because had he stuck with Demona at the end of Reawakening, he might not have been so difficult to indoctrinate (if she had the patience to do it).

I found Coldstone's arc believable, sometimes you can take one step forward and two steps back. But if it didn't work for you, then it didn't work for you.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 6:37:31 am EST from 73.167.128.71

You know I just realized I wrote something very personal and just a little cryptic in the count without any explanation.

So back when I was three I had pneumonia for the first time (when you're an asthmatic it's pretty easy to pneumonia) suffice to say it was a scary time for me and my family. Well the hospital I was staying got access to a lot of new movies so I got to watch the Rocketeer. It was my first real introduction to pulp and it helped me get through a tough time.

Not really relevant I know but I thought I should put in some clarification.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 2:51:39 am EST from 73.158.223.17

Now, all that stuff about torture might have an in-story justification eventually. The Illuminati story is at its core about good intentions that become corrupted by using cruel means. It could be that the Hotel Cabal was originally much different, following more realistic interrogation techniques. But then the bosses started demanding more results, so the interrogators forced prisoners to confess to things that might not be true. When Mace Malone got control of it, he brought the violence of Prohibition era gangsters to the Hotel. The claim of obtaining secrets became just a pretext for the real goal of simply making people suffer. Kind of like real life. This could be a good fanfic...
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 12:20:25 am EST from 174.28.6.34

I’m probably not the first to state this, but the D+ stream of Vows has the wrong ending. Well, more’s the pity. Incidentally, that line and many others are also subtitled wrong, though that’s sadly not surprising.

Revelations is a favorite episode of mine for the character development, but the Hotel Cabal is a waste of the Illuminati’s money. This is part of a much larger issue, but Mace puts his prisoners through a form of psychological torture, and torture is notoriously ineffective at gaining accurate information. There are too many shows to count that show torture being used in interrogation, and at least this show has the villain doing it, not the hero. But causing Goliath to have a psychological breakdown and lose touch with reality is counterproductive, since he then Would no longer know truth from fiction and thus be unable to tell Mace anything useful. I get that it’s less dramatic, but a more effective tactic in the real world would be for Mace to sit down and talk with Goliath and gradually get him to open up. If he’s cut off from his emotional support for long enough, he might be receptive to an idealistic pitch about all the good the Illuminati is trying to do in the world.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 19, 2019 12:08:54 am EST from 174.28.6.34

“ I actually like that about him. Sure, it's morally repugnant but it also gives us a different personality type among the Manhattan Clan (especially since he rejoined at the end of Clan Building.”

See, I get that. I think the issue is that he doesn’t seem to learn anything. In High Noon, Desdemona badgers him into taking a stand and doing the right thing, but by Possession he’s back to square one and they have the exact same argument again. Maybe when I rewatch the latter episode I’ll notice more subtlety, but it seems like his character regresses between episodes.

I’ve often speculated as to whether the Captain was right when he said the gargoyles would allow the Vikings to leave with their human prisoners if Hakon didn’t shatter them. I think Othello would have followed Demona’s lead and said to abandon them, but based on Long Way to Morning it’s clear Hudson feels responsibility for the humans living in Wyvern, and I think Goliath would have agreed. There could be an interesting power struggle there, and who knows where the trio would land. And if Desdemona sided with Goliath instead of Othello, that wild just reignite his jealousy. Of course, it’s hard to do alternate history scenarios in a series with closed time loops, as it leads to all sorts of paradoxes.

Todd: re: beasts and monsters, I noticed something similar with Macbeth. He often refers to gargoyles as “beastie,” but it never sounds demeaning or hateful. It can be surprising to go back to his early appearances and remember what a straight villain he was. He was always nuanced, but he did awful things.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 11:41:05 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

My post seems to have gotten erased when the room went down, so I'll have to reconstruct it - and hope that this doesn't happen again.

I rewatched "Revelations" today on DVD. A few observations from this viewing.

The "calling gargoyles beasts/creatures/monsters" trend continues with Mace Malone saying about Goliath "What a majestic beast". Unlike a lot of the humans who use those kinds of terms for gargoyles, though, he's clearly aware that Goliath's an intelligent being rather than a mere animal (indeed, the implied purpose for getting him into the Hotel Cabal, interrogation, would only make sense if Goliath was the former).

Matt's listing among the clock tower's contents "enough food for a family of gorillas" brought to mind the "where's the gargoyles' food coming from?" question we briefly discussed late last week. (Not to mention that they've also got books and videos - maybe Elisa picked them up at a library sale? I know from my own experience that those go for low prices.)

The clock chimes again.

Elisa and Matt are driving along a lonely coastal road - definitely not very Manhattan-ish - when Matt confronts her over the secret she's been keeping from him. To those who know more about the NYPD and its jurisdiction than me, would a couple of cops in New York City be likely to include such a setting on their patrol?

When they got to Mace Malone's fate, I found myself thinking of his ex-partner Dominic Dracon - especially his portrayal in the "Religion 101" radio play as frantically seeking those diamonds everywhere, his sanity clearly battered after that blow he received at the end of "The Silver Falcon". I know that the radio play's not common, but I'd felt, ever since I'd read it, that that seemed likely to be just how Dominic would have been behaving after "The Silver Falcon" - and Mace Malone's mental state as he's frantically opening one door after another, searching for the way out, convinced that the next door he opens will lead to freedom, seemed to parallel DD's fate.

On another topic - last evening I was watching a short PBS documentary on Highclere Castle (the place where they shot "Downton Abbey") and they were talking about wyvern decorations in various parts of the stately home. They pronounced "wyvern" as "why-vern", in contrast to the "wi-vern" pronunciation used in "Gargoyles"; I don't know whether that's the correct way to say it, or if it's just another example of how British English is pronounced differently from American English. They also mentioned that wyverns were a traditional symbol of the old Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex (a far cry from the Scottish coast).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 8:56:52 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)
Jordan
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 11:22:42 am EST from 54.37.18.131

JURGAN> I actually like that about him. Sure, it's morally repugnant but it also gives us a different personality type among the Manhattan Clan (especially since he rejoined at the end of Clan Building.

Not everybody is going to be heroic, and the dramatic potential down the line...
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 10:14:01 am EST from 40.131.43.180

"High Noon" is where I really started to dislike Othello (the Gargoyles character, not the Shakespeare one). He's a moral coward who has to be badgered into doing the right thing. It's even worse in Possession, where he's willing to basically kill Broadway and Angela to keep a flesh and blood body. Or enslave them in their own minds, I think? Something like that- it's been a while.

I know the Coldstone plotline always confused me as a kid. I think I must have missed a key episode, maybe Legion, and couldn't figure out who the three personalities were. Then in reruns it was hard to tell what order the episodes were supposed to be in. The mutates plotline was confusing for similar reasons.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 10:01:46 am EST from 174.28.6.34

All Lucky Sevens!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 8:47:32 am EST from 104.129.205.35

6th. Just like to wish a happy birthday to Kath Soucie.
Adam
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 8:44:43 am EST from 170.112.1.251

Fifth.

I rewatched "High Noon" and "Outfoxed" on DVD over the weekend, but decided to save my thoughts on them until the room had cleared.

HIGH NOON: What struck me this time around was that it was almost a "Shakespeare crossover" - that is, a team-up between Macbeth, Iago (more accurately, a Iago-counterpart), and Demona, who's almost a Lady Macbeth-counterpart (and who'd become even more one in "Sanctuary"). (All we'd need to make such a "Shakespeare villain team-up" complete would be Richard III, Edmund from "King Lear" (whose own "Gargoyles" counterpart would be due in three more episodes), and Tamora and Aaron from "Titus Andronicus".) I don't think Shakespeare should object to it, though; he'd written his own crossover, "A Midsummer Night's Dream", which brought Greek mythology and English fairy mythology together.

And "Iago" showed the cunning and shrewdness of his Shakespearean counterpart in alerting the gargoyles to Demona's presence - which they hadn't known about - in order to dupe them.

I enjoyed the touch of Hudson and Broadway learning to read from the newspaper. (Poor Broadway still finds the word "right" a challenge - cf. "The Silver Falcon" - again, I really need to read through a few books on the history of the English language to find out how the "-ight" spelling for words that sounded like "-ite" originated.)

Bronx again displays his skills for spotting Demona hiding behind something, just two episodes after "City of Stone Part Three" (where he sensed her behind the tapestry).

One thing struck me about Broadway's admiring cry upon entering Macbeth's library, "Look at all these books!" The size of Macbeth's collection would be all the more notable to someone who'd lived most of his life in the 10th century, back when books were much rarer because they had to be copied by hand. What a difference the invention of the printing press made!

I spotted Macbeth's stained glass window of himself and Demona in the background during Brooklyn and Bronx's fight with Demona; Macbeth must have had a new one made when he rebuilt his house after "Enter Macbeth".

I really like Iago's cry, when "Othello" and Desdemona challenge him over control of Coldstone, "I am besieged!"

I also like the touch of "Othello", once he's regained control of Coldstone, telling Elisa that as long as "Iago" threatens to recover control, "no *living* gargoyle is safe from Coldstone" (emphasis mine) - a recognition that he's an undead gargoyle.

OUTFOXED: Not as many new things struck me this time rewatching it. One detail I noticed, though, and which spooked me - just after Goliath heads off towards Fortress-Two, we see it flying towards the Twin Towers. Not for long, but still a bit unsettling....

Renard initially addresses Goliath as "creature" (continuing the trend that so many humans have used in speaking to gargoyles in the series so far), but unlike most of them, he quickly recognizes that Goliath's an intelligent being whom you can communicate with, not some mere strange beast. (His "Gen-U-Tech's abominable creations" line suggests that he might have initially believed Goliath to be a Mutate, which would explain that. I still suspect that, once Goliath used the phrase "not my fault", Renard's strong belief in taking responsibility for your actions drove out from his thoughts the fact that the "creature" he was speaking to looked like something out of a fantasy story.) Vogel also calls Goliath a "creature" - maybe with less recognition than his boss of Goliath's sapience.

I spotted what looked like a landscape painting in the background of one of the rooms aboard Fortress-2, and Vogel's office had wood-paneling. Pretty fancy for a flying laboratory.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 7:56:52 am EST from 68.231.65.221

Adora, Glimmer, Bow and Swift Wind! BEST FRIEND QUAD!
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 4:44:22 am EST from 51.37.64.21

For those that have Disney+, has there been any thought behind taking advantage of the 'Give Feedback' option under the site's Help page? The feedback button lets you request up to THREE films or shows. They might already have Gargoyles, but saying we want more episodes (with Paur and Weisman showrunning) can't hurt.
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 12:12:32 am EST from 68.231.126.227

Dad ended up getting Disney Plus for the family (at least for a year).

Second thing I'm going to watch (after Gargoyles) is going to be the Rocketeer.
That movie helped me through a difficult time.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 12:05:02 am EST from 64.85.228.110

First!

Wife and I just watched Eye of the Beholder, my personal favorite single-part episode. This show is still good.

(I’ll admit I was a little worried, because when I got D+ I picked a first episode at random, and it was Upgrade, which has kind of weak animation. I was worried I’d find the show didn’t hold up on rewatching.)
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 18, 2019 12:02:46 am EST from 174.28.6.34