Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] "Byyye!" Exactly how Eda said it, and even prior to some official hints, there was the assumption of him being a less distant family member.

It does make me wonder if there was any reasons for giving them a familial connection though, well besides a means for Eda to have easy access to Caleb and/or Evelyn's portal door/key.

I mean if it was to set up her as his new parent (along with Raine), well we know she doesn't need her children to be blood related.

Plus besides hinting to a potential father/son bond with Darius, really it seems like his default parent/guardian even if they share parenting duties is Camila.

As an aside, not expecting it to happen, but yep. I read the right kind of fits and I now am all for Camila/Eda/Raine. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 9:01:42 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

ANTIYONDER - [SPOILER] Which parting phrase was that? [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 7:40:53 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] I have heard that by the time they were doing Eda's Requiem they knew about the shorted 3rd Season.

That said, I think we can conclude that the Wittebanes even as early as Keeping Up A-Fear-Ances were planned to be tied to the Clawthornes.

I mean besides Hunter's parting phrase, there is the fact that the Clawthorne property was where Eda found the portal key and door. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 2:44:07 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

I've wondered whether [SPOILER] Belos being Philip and the Day of Unity's purpose being to wipe out the population of the Boiling Isles was part of the "revised development" after they learned about Season Three's truncation, alongside the Collector. It's clear that the Day of Unity was always intended to be a big threat that had to be foiled - all the more so since it tied in with the series' theme, established from the first episode, of individuality vs. conformity, with the show on the side of individuality - but was the notion that Belos's plans for the Day of Unity being a genocidal scheme in there from the start, or was it going to pose a different danger? (Note that the episode where Luz went back in time to meet Philip involved the Collector.) [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 8:51:31 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Todd Jensen> Speaking of later...

[SPOILER] So it's generally accepted that Belos never went after Luz (besides her being human) due to knowing that she needed to go back in time to ensure his empire started.

So you think Dana Terrace always planned in after early revisions of Belos, or do you think she realized that he hasn't been presented enough as a threat to Luz and implemented the time loop? [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 8:10:22 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Oh, and remember Luz's "Can't reason with crazy" line. It'll be echoed later on, under much more serious circumstances....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 7:43:31 am EST from 70.176.217.135

JURGAN - It was partly because Kenner wanted to include vehicles for their "Gargoyles" range (which led to the ill-fated motorcycle in "Temptation" and the one-shot helicopter in "Her Brother's Keeper"), and suggested having gargoyles only being able to glide, not fly, in order to justify the flying vehicles. Greg resisted it from that angle, of course, until Gary Krisel discussed it with him and offered a stronger reason - it would make things far more of a challenge for the gargoyles if they could only glide rather than fly. Greg saw the point, and looked upon it as another good piece of advice from the higher-up (alongside Krisel's better-known suggestion, also mentioned in the podcast, that instead of the Magus offering to place Goliath under the stone sleep spell, have Goliath be so devastated by all the clan gone that he asks the Magus to put him under the spell, as a sort of act of suicide).

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. A couple of other favorite moments for me in that episode were"

1. Luz saying about Boscha "She can't follow us around all day." Cut to Luz, Willow, and Gus covered in trash and graffiti. "She followed us around all day!"

2. The fact that the montage about montages (which you mentioned) included Luz, Gus, and Willow having a tea party in animal costumes, and when Gus brings up that part, Luz replies "What happens in the montage stays in the montage!"

3. King dressed up like a cheerleader.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 7:41:28 am EST from 70.176.217.135

To go off course for a bit, more and more I think objection to gay rep in a kid show being based on morals becomes more and more bull.

Cause somehow a previous President talking about dating his own daughter somehow is deemed wholesome humor.:-p

Or Ball Buster (Dead serious) being "a family game": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NW8LPgv4NK0

Matthew> But yeah, we have one more reason as to why Eda has also avoided capture.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 6:39:01 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Luz, I thought we discussed accepting challenges when you don't know the rules?

Anyway, watched "Wing It Like Witches" and it offers quite the status change here. Amity's made good on her word about being nicer to Willow and standing up for her. Willow's enjoying some newfound popularity that we saw last episode and Boscha has taken the spot of top queen of awful. I like that we got a bit of a look into how she differs from Amity. Amity was aloof and abrasive because she dedicated herself to being top of her studies and her home life contributed to some of her worst qualities. Boscha on the other hand is driven by her need to be the best in sports and her jerk behavior is stoked by the fact that as long as she remains the school's favorite player, she can get away with anything she wants.

What I especially loved this episode was its clear jab at the "underdog sports story" bit seen so often, like how all you need to get up to equal skill with the competition is a training montage (and then Luz blows the chance for a training montage with a montage explaining what a montage is). It's important to remember that not every underdog story ends with the hero(es) winning, sometimes they lose and get a ham-fisted "moral victory." bit. Actually what I like is that what we get is a sign that the mean-spiritedness is starting to wain since Luz's arrival. It's a trait of her being a magnetic hero that works so well, that the girls like Skara (who might not be so bad) can play for the enjoyment of the game rather than for the sake of winning via complete annihilation.

To wrap things up; man, this episode loves poking fun of the nonsensical way fantasy games are depicted. At this point, I'd be a little surprised if Amity didn't come forward with her feelings by the end of the season; on that same note, it's not often you see those teenage hormones kick up so high when it's a girl crushing on another girl. But things are certainly changing in kids media. And finally we get another encounter with Eda and Lilith. I can't help but think that Eda's kept her independence for so long thanks to those pursuing her have been either dummies or willing to cut her a break like Lilith. But I have a sneaking suspicion those breaks might be ending soon...

Favorite Lines:

Eda: If cheaters never prosper, why was I the star player?

Luz: Well, can't reason with crazy.

Luz: I don't know much about sports, but I do know sports movies. We too, are a ragtag team of lovable misfits joined together to defeat a powerful enemy. With a little team spirt and a training montage, we can win.

Willow: Well, if you think this'll work, then I'm in. How about you, Gus?

Gus: In seasons past, these flags have waved in support of grudgby greats. Now they will wave for the greatest! ME!

Luz: What about you, Amity?

Amity: Me? On a team with you? Hm. Running around in cute uniforms? Heh. Sweating?...I gotta go!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 3:54:39 am EST from 64.85.245.77

"One neat new piece of information: I now know why they decided to have the gargoyles only glide, rather than fly."

Remind me?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 17, 2022 1:13:59 am EST from 98.48.118.192

Sorry for the double post, but I listened to the "Voices of the Eyrie" podcast on "Awakening Part Two" this evening. One neat new piece of information: I now know why they decided to have the gargoyles only glide, rather than fly.

They also discussed the Kidrobot plush toy of Goliath (and there's one of Demona as well, though I don't remember whether it was discussed on the podcast or not). I can't help wondering what Goliath and Demona's response would be to plush toy versions of themselves. (I doubt that either of them would be enthusiastic about it.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 16, 2022 8:50:51 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

ED - Thanks for sharing that with us, including the bit about Macbeth's pilgrimage to Rome. When I first learned about the historical Macbeth (as opposed to the Macbeth of Shakespeare), that was one of the first details about him I learned. (I have it in a little book I read as a boy and still have, "The Monster at the Top of the Tree"by Kathleen Menhinick Dewey, which included a lot of information on the more colorful rulers of western Europe in early medieval times - besides Macbeth, there was much on Charlemagne, Alfred the Great, and the early Merovingian kings of France - whose ancestry even provided the book's title, since they were reputedly descended from a sea monster.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 16, 2022 6:57:57 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Just listened to the new “Voices from the Eyrie”, this one covering part three of “City of Stone”.

Firstly, an interesting if very mildly spoilery reveal by Greg W about the comics: [SPOILER] future issues will have different narrators and not just for the current storyline but throughout “Here in Manhattan” and, from the way he phrased it, potentially beyond. The narration was really effective in this issue but I do have a reflexive bias against Goliath narration generally just because it reminds me of TGC - I realise this is completely irrational and Greg’s will be (and was, in "Phoenix"), much better but there you go. I’m interested to see other narrators though - especially Gnash and Katana. Doubtless Nate will be pushing for the issue narrated by Bronx - lots of barking whenever pigeons are in panel! I’m game. [/SPOILER]

Greg W seems to suggest that the “S&P” (for want of a more precise term for now) will be a little closer to the series than SLG. Interesting. Hope the SLG books aren't edited on re-release though.

Multiple reveals (or at least information I hadn’t recalled being revealed previously):
- Demona’s clan was probably numbered about 40 all told.
- Greg does one day want to show Macbeth’s trip to Rome in the 11th century.

Greg B also applies colour theory to the episode - intriguing as I’d never looked at ‘Gargoyles’ through this prism previously. I always thought the reason that Spidey’s villains were green was because back in the day, the only colours that printed well were red, blue and green and Spidey’s costume was red and blue already. I guess the progression went that Demona was blue and red so Macbeth should be clad in green opposite her and therefore Duncan would be blue and red opposite Macbeth. Purple would make sense as a regal colour but Gruoch is already lilac. Hmm.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Dec 16, 2022 6:45:55 pm EST from 81.132.227.82

Has anyone’s Guler exclusive cover shipped yet?
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 16, 2022 5:28:38 pm EST from 209.140.34.209

Ian> Good points, all.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Dec 16, 2022 10:57:20 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Ed:Sorry you didn't enjoy #1. To be fair, looking at "Clan-Building", most of Greg's books are incredibly dense - I quite liked that this was a bit of a lighter route in but I appreciate that's not for everyone. Hope you stick around.

I wouldn't say the problem is that it's light, per se. Like, there's a version of this where the gargoyles do nothing but deal with the car thieves from the beginning (or some other, marginally more complicated but still comparatively minor situation--like the hostage situation at the start of "City of Stone"), which I could also see being very satisfying, if it had given shown us how the gargoyles work together and their interpersonal dynamics. There's even a version of this that looks identical to the one that we got, but has a different script focused more on how Elisa feels about all the characters she's introducing, which would feel quite different. Does Elisa like Katana? How does she feel about this newer version of Brooklyn? What insights do her relationships with her siblings give her into what the trio is going through? Give us that, and suddenly the issue feels more focused and reintroduces the world more effectively. And while we get some of that with her comments about Angela and Xanatos, even then, they feel either vague or inconsistent or both ("like sisters" could mean anything, and in this specific case, it invites comparisons to Elisa's relationships with her actual siblings, which are quite different from the relationship with Angela; her comments about Xanatos, meanwhile, feel inconsistent with her portrayal in "Clan-Building"). The problem here, then, isn't lightness but lack of specificity, which is one of those things I feel the series has consistently needed to work on, and I feel was especially important in a reintroduction issue.
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 11:25:11 pm EST from 168.91.192.232

Listened to the third episode of the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast, about "Awakening Part One". Another enjoyable one. Most of the material Greg Weisman discussed on it was already familiar to me from past posts at "Ask Greg", etc., but it was still fun to listen to. (It's mostly "Awakening Part One", but there was also a good tribute to Ed Asner at the start - including just how appropriate that Greg's description of Hudson included the line "Hudson hates spunk.")
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 9:16:56 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

So a quick check confirms that Riker's mainly used to house pretrial defendants and those serving short sentences. The thing is that even though it's technically a jail the place is built like a prison. Which goes to explain why there's such a problem with violence and neglect there.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 6:11:21 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Jurgan and Matthew > You’re right that Riker’s is a jail, not a prison. The only way Dracon and Brod could be there post-conviction (or plea) is if the sentence was less than a year. It is certainly feasible that their cases are still awaiting trial, as this is about eight months or so (?) after “Turf.” I think. The wheels of justice move slowly, especially in high-crime 1990s NYC.

However, complicating this further is that in “Turf,” Elisa says Dracon is in a “maximum security prison,” presumably having been convicted of his crimes from prior episodes. So, if he was in prison already, there’s no way they would bring him back to Riker’s just because he has a new case.

I think this is just one of those suspension of disbelief things. The whole thing of Dracon and Brod sharing a cell is absurd to begin with, especially since one of Brod’s charged crimes is, presumably, attempting to murder Tony in a prison! “Funny,” indeed. If Brod did kill him one night, Dracon’s family would have the most open and shut civil suit against NYC ever.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 4:30:16 pm EST from 63.143.194.103

Jurgan> I think we came to the agreement that a week after the comics come out, we don't need spoilers.

I actually had no idea Riker's was just a jail rather than a prison. It's been depicted as a prison in media for so long, heck Garg wiki itself calls it a prison.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 3:52:16 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

I agree that a good heroic story needs the hero to have the option of a reasonably happy life. Self-sacrifice is an important part of the story, but I don't think it's fair to ask them to be miserable all the time. That was one of my biggest complaints about Joss Whedon's storytelling- things like Xander leaving Anya at the altar just felt needlessly cruel. Why can't we have one bit of happiness? Or look at Anakin Skywalker, who was so anguished by the rules about his personal life that he ended up turning to the dark side. (This is one of very few places I will defend the prequels- I think we were supposed to see that the Jedi rules were overly controlling and inhuman.)

Oh, and totally random observation that has nothing to do with this topic: [SPOILER] Why are Dracon and Brod in Riker's? That's a jail, not a prison, it's not intended for long-term confinement. I guess it hasn't been that long since they were caught, maybe they're still awaiting trial? [/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 2:49:41 pm EST from 98.48.118.192

Todd: Yes, I thought about posting a review on Ask Greg but a few things made me pause.

Mostly practical reasons:

1) In the first instance, I didn't want to post right away in case I spoiled you or Masterdramon or a queue-surfer.
2) I still have other covers on order which I might want to comment on.
3) I've kind of already posted here so I'll re-edit into something that makes a bit more sense but it's useful to have perspective on some things from other reviewers - e.g. comments here clarified Owen, Craig already explained the role of a packager and we've identified other details like the Jogger and you identified the paramedics.
4) I thought about raising some questions about the development of the issue but I figure that these are likely to be covered already in "Voices from the Eyrie" so better wait for that first.

Also, though... in the 00s, there was an obvious benefit to collecting all these rambles in terms of showing interest. I'm not sure if it's such a priority now as clearly Disney+ numbers, social media and other metrics exist; I don't think Greg has communicated about the comics on AG at all (not in a set-piece ramble at any rate). I figure posting does prove engagement and is beneficial to Greg. But especially as he seems a bit burned out on AG generally, there does seem something presumptuous about posting a personal review (even really positive ones) directly to the author in this manner. Hopefully he still enjoys these kinds of rambles, or at least sees them as more a pleasure than a chore, and for this reason I do plan to post a response, but it did give me pause.
Ed
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 2:44:15 pm EST from 81.132.227.82

Antiyonder: That exchange reads very differently for folks who have read The Dawn of Yangchen and know more about who the previous Air Avatar actually was.

Wholeheartedly recommend both that and the Kyoshi novels, by the way. While the original animated series are hardly slouches in the writing department, for my money F.C. Yee is far and away the most talented writer to have produced canon for the franchise.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"On the year's last day / When all of a life's accounts / Have been settled up." - Hana
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 12:19:45 pm EST from 98.150.138.224

I wonder whether this Dido, if he'd gotten in charge of "Gargoyles", would have gone to the point of:

1. Wiping out all the gargoyles except for Goliath, Hudson, the trio, Bronx, and Demona (and maybe Thailog), portraying them as irrevocably doomed to extinction with no future beyond protecting humanity (apart from Demona and Thailog, of course), and:

2. Revealing the gargoyles to be statues brought to life by human magic for the purpose of protecting humanity, rather than a natural species.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:03:03 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Shout out to Wayne Family Adventures for keeping that in mind, by the way. New update today (every Thursday)!
B
B
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 9:50:09 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Yeah, it's fine and all to make it realistically *challenging* for a hero to have a social life, but it doesn't have to be *impossible*. A hero who focuses on nothing but the fight will lose sight of why they started out, and/or burn out in mental and emotional exhaustion.
B
B
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 9:49:02 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Matthew> Yeah and even then I sometimes think Didio's take is also an equivalent to those at the top who agreed on undoing the Spider-Marriage.

They prefer someone over Mary Jane or they just like to have Pete going from gal to gal regardless whether said situations are relatable.

But I imagine some can object to heroes or such having a partner or making a life beyond their heroism.

A discussion between Aang and Yangchen from Escape From the Spirit World I think explains why forcing oneself for the mission to be single isn't necessarily for the best. Spoiler as even if the game isn't available, the Season 2 set has the story segments:

[SPOILER] Aang- Well ... I realized that no Avatar is perfect. They all struggled and made mistakes. Like me.

Yangchen- Very wise.

Aang- But it made me wonder - why is the Avatar Spirit a human in every life? Wouldn't it be better if the Avatar was an all powerful spirit that never died?

Yangchen- I don't think so. [Katara, Sokka, Toph, Iroh, and Zuko fade onto the camera.] The Avatar must be compassionate towards all people ... and the only way to do that is to live with them. [Fade to a sand sailer dragging Appa away.] The Avatar must experience sadness ... [Camera pans to show Aang with tears rolling down his face. Cut to Aang in the Avatar State in the crystal catacombs.] Anger ... [Cut to Aang and Katara penguin sledding.] Joy ... [Cut to Team Avatar reuniting with Appa.] and happiness. [Cut to Yangchen.] By feeling all these emotions, it helps you understand how precious human life is ... so you will do anything to protect it. If you were an all powerful spirit living on the top of some mountain, you wouldn't have much in common with an ordinary person. So the Avatar continues to take human rebirth. [Kuruk, Kyoshi, and Roku appear behind her.] And with each life, learns what it means to be human. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 8:35:23 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Yeah, when I started writing "DC Legacies" (which I really need to get back to), I promised myself not to fall into the same trap that DC falls into so often, gloom and doom without the chance of betterment. I wanted make sure the story shows that things can be bad, but heroes with or without the mask can work to make things better. For the world and themselves.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 6:14:49 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Matthew> Yeah and normally I don't like to presume that edgelord writing and such automatically means a writer or higher up resents the medium and is punishing readers for wanting to scratch their entertainment itch. But Didio wouldn't allow for Goliath/Elisa, Angela/Broadway, Brooklyn/Katana for this very reason:

"Heroes shouldn’t have happy personal lives. They are committed to being that person and committed to defending others at the sacrifice of their own personal interests.

That’s very important and something we reinforced. People in the Bat family their personal lives basically suck. Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon and Kathy Kane. It’s wonderful that they try to establish personal lives, but it’s equally important that they set them aside. That is our mandate, that is our edict and that is our stand."
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Dec 15, 2022 5:15:26 am EST from 71.84.183.196

I'm quite thankful that Gargoyles remained far away from Dan DiDio.

He'd wring Gnash's neck out of spite.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 11:47:01 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

B> "Honestly, I'm okay with Young Justice being a different "Earth-16" outside of the DC Comics canon, because it isolates it from multiversal continuity shakeups and the whims of the comics writers."

Yeah it reminds me of Greg B's take on why Gargoyles should remain independent rather than being part of Marvel continuity.

The public being shocked at the existence of gargoyles would feel hollow with mutants, extra terrestrial and so on around.

Odin being a child of Oberon might not go over well.

And cause regardless how much they make their relationship work, Goliath and Elisa would have just One More Day.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 11:13:26 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

B> Doesn't help that Black Lightning was filmed in Atlanta and the rest were done in Vancouver.

Why they thought it was a good idea to consolidate all the shows and make the Justice League is beyond me. Each of the show's writers had vastly different ideas for what they wanted and from what I read, not all of them got along.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 9:06:44 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

And the televised Crisis on Infinite Earths of the Arrowverse was supposed to consolidate all the shows on one Earth and start a Justice League, then they did very little to nothing with that (Covid played a part but I don't think is entirely to blame) and the shows started ending one by one until now after Flash's final season Superman & Lois will be the only one left, but it was retroactively revealed to be another Earth, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be its final season too. Disappointed, but not surprised. While Gotham Knights looks like a one-and-done.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 8:24:26 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

Todd Jensen> Yeah the problem is mainly that not all characters got rebooted right away after the Crisis and in some cases, the books that were popular kept their continuity.

So you had Superman's backstory establishing that he first donned his tights as an adult, so he was never Superboy. Plus he wasn't a powerful as he was in the Silver Age where even as a teen, he could time travel on his own power.

But Legion of Super Heroes kept most of their backstop, including that Superboy was not only their inspiration, but member who took part in adventures with them.

Complicating the matters is Booster Gold #6 which even is the first time we sew this version of Superman (As he doesn't recognize the Legion Flight Ring) several months before Byrne introduces his backstop and starts his run.

Yet, the Superman comics coming out at the same time as BG #6 and 7 were still set in the Silver Age continuity.

Not to mention that the Justice League's history was altered to where Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman weren't founders.

Guessing to downplay the big three a bit. Problem is that writers tried to still keep League history intact, so Superman had to be a League ally to explain how they solved missions that depended on his powers to win.

And cause the they didn't learn from history, you have the New 52 where Green Lantern's history is intact, but again Superman is relaunched again.

Except the villain Cyborg Superman was a major player in destroying Coast City, thus leading to Hal Jordan giving into the Parallax entity.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 7:43:58 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

Sorry, I was thinking of "Crisis on Infinite Earths", not "Infinite Crisis" (about all I know about "Infinite Crisis" and "Convergence" are the names).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 6:47:27 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

And from what I've heard of "Infinite Crisis", it was originally designed to simplify things at DC Comics and shrink the multiverse into a universe. From the evidence, that didn't last.

I've noticed that there aren't any reviews of "Gargoyles" #1 in the "Ask Greg" queue, though I remember the Slave Labor Graphics comics getting reviews in it. I wonder if readers are holding off for now because they don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it yet. (Of course, given the size of the queue and the fact that Greg's taken a long break from answering questions, he wouldn't get to read the comments for a long time.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 6:46:01 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

One visual gag I really liked was how Luz would do the otter face any time her attention was brought to the otter costume.

Algae> Jeez, there was Infinite Crisis, there was Convergence, there was too many. Half the time I think DC is more interested in telling stories about their multiverse than they are telling stories in just one of their universes.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 5:30:58 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

B> Agreed.

I mean, how many multiverses has DC gone through since Independance Day first aired?
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 4:55:42 pm EST from 84.247.48.126

Honestly, I'm okay with Young Justice being a different "Earth-16" outside of the DC Comics canon, because it isolates it from multiversal continuity shakeups and the whims of the comics writers.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 11:22:24 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Thanks! "From the Notes of Barry Allen", neat.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 11:18:38 am EST from 74.74.246.146

That'd be Dark Crisis: Big Bang!
Karrin Blue
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 9:49:52 am EST from 72.10.127.194

I've always loved crossovers in fiction, so I was very taken with the Amalgam Comics when they came out. (BTW, here's a link to the big Digimon crossover from a season that unfortunately never aired in America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvKxThNCRm0&t=1s )

Karrin> What was the name of that comic? I'd like to look it up.

Mattew> That's just asking for a pun about "with a dork side".
.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 9:43:04 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Oh, and the biggest and most spectacular take-off on Harry Potter is coming in the next episode. You'll know it when you see it....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 8:10:24 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew. I hadn't thought of comparing Grom to the boggart (the basilisk was another matter), maybe because the Harry Potter boggarts seemed more "small scale"; Grometheus seemed more "Great Old One"-level.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 7:34:23 am EST from 70.176.217.135

I'm back baby! Honestly, I knew trying to do another Owl House right after the comic's release would be an exercise in futility.

Watched "Enchanting Grom Fright" and I never would have thought of combining the prom episode with the obligatory "face your fears episode" but I guess that's just one of the reasons Owl House is so unique.

Like when I mentioned with the YJ's tie-in comics, I'm glad that they went for a more in-depth examination of what fears are and how they affect us. Rather than the usual brand of fear of spiders, or not being a good enough leader or some other crap. Pointing out there's a big difference between stuff that makes us uncomfortable, weighs us down or gives us the skeevies. The truly bad stuff is the kind of thing we might not be willing to admit to ourselves, or might not even be aware of because our brains consciously protect us from that. In this case, Luz knows in some form what she's really afraid of, but ironically enough, is afraid to admit it.

Man, those Harry Potter comparisons aren't stopping any time soon, are they? First we get a basilisk running loose on the school, now we have an ancient monster underneath it that's practically a boggart. You know, those books were right about facing against it with more than one person considering how quickly Grom was defeated after Luz and Amity's dance (I see where the budget for the last couple episodes went this). I guess even an entitled, transphobic broken clock is right at least twice.

But the last big thing is the reveal that Luz's mom is getting letters from...someone. Which begs the question on who would do that, why they'd do that, and to what reason they'd go to help selling the illusion that Luz is out learning to be a responsible person. My first instinct is Eda forges the letters and sends them out during her foraging for human junk. But at the same time, it all feels so disconcerting.

To wrap things up, I find it rather hilarious that King wants adoration and tribute worthy of a king but has stage fright. Secondly, I've seen plenty of stories where the hero is oblivious to other character's feelings but this might be the first time I've seen the rival be the one to try and initiate courtship.
And there's a Buster Sword on the weapons rack. Man, I love when shows are made by unapologetic geeks.

Favorite Lines:

Luz: Which should I wear to Grom? This one says, "Witch, with a dark side." But this one says, "I'm an otter! With a dark side." (mischievous otter face)

Luz: I'm not sure if it's nerves or if I accidentally drank some milk, but something's making my stomach squirm.

Amity: You look nice. Strange, but nice. And thank you, Luz. Honestly, I'm kind of amazed with how fearless you are. You've done things I could never do.

Luz: Heh! Yeah, right! You going soft on me, Blight?

Amity: Heheheh! In your dreams!

Luz: I won't lie, today was kinda hard. And I don't always feel like I'm supposed to be here. But when things got tough, my friends helped me out. I think you'd like them. Extraño también, Mami. One day, I'll tell you all about this.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 14, 2022 4:00:44 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Karrin Blue> Yeah and when you think about it, the Amalgam cast, plus Access is basically owned by Disney, Marvel, WB and DC.

And as an aside, while the Krona's fate at the end of JLA/Avengers and the references to Superman and Wonder Woman wielding Thor's Hammer, the first clear reference to the team ups outside of the events themselves was Green Lantern V3 #87.

As a lead in to Unlimited Access, Axel Asher goes to the DC Universe to recruit GL (Kyle Rayner), but comes across Jade. So he leaves to find that silver guy on the surfboard.

So despite it being a regular monthly by DC, you have the copyright acknowledging co-ownership by Marvel.

The Marvel/DC/Amalgam stuff was one of my first major collecting goals (Spider-Girl and the MC2 stuff following) and between trades and single issues, I pretty much succeeded (Barring a second Batman/Daredevil team up).

Rare time where the impulse buy isn't a regret. Stories read just as well/enjoyable to me and the chances of them being republished not so high.

Plus back then I only got them more as a Marvel fan whereas being more inversed on DC enhances the enjoyment.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Dec 13, 2022 11:12:52 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

One of the comics out today had many cameos from the various DC parallel worlds, and a list of all of them in the back; unfortunately it appears Multiversity still has dibs on Earth-16. Although it looks like the Marvel fusion characters are still 'canon' - off on Earth-1996, full of 'mysterious "amalgamated"(?) heroes' requiring further investigation.
Karrin Blue
posted @ Tue, Dec 13, 2022 11:00:03 pm EST from 68.9.88.39

Ian: Sorry to hear you had the same problem. Yes, it was the Nakayama cover - sounds like a bad print run. Shame as that's the 'main' one. If you feel that way, it's worth contacting Dynamite or asking your store to as I'm sure you'd be eligible for a refund - here in the UK this would fall under standard consumer protection laws and I assume other countries have similar arrangements. The Kambadais cover seems to be available to stores that order 10 or more but they might be able to request it specially under the circumstances - worth a shot. Sorry you didn't enjoy #1. To be fair, looking at "Clan-Building", most of Greg's books are incredibly dense - I quite liked that this was a bit of a lighter route in but I appreciate that's not for everyone. Hope you stick around.

B: Well... yeah? [SPOILER] He's in about two scenes after all. [/SPOILER]. There are shows I really love - shows I'd absolutely go in for a comic sequel to - where after a few months, let alone 25 years, some of the episodic details and names slip my mind.
Ed
posted @ Tue, Dec 13, 2022 12:50:04 pm EST from 81.132.227.82

So a minor thought. With Spider-Man's career as a hero starting cause his attempt to look the other way came back to bite him, plus the whole Power and Responsibility line, we also got Goliath's take on how "Human problems can become gargpyle problems".

Trying to recall if any YJ quote can be likened to either.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Dec 13, 2022 3:21:24 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Well, if the first one fell apart like that, you should be able to get a full refund easily.
B
B
posted @ Tue, Dec 13, 2022 12:27:53 am EST from 74.74.246.146

The frequency of my Gargoyles (and TMNT) reviews may have slowed down to a trickle over the past...decade, but waning interest or not, there was no way I wasn't going to pick up the new series. I'm both dismayed (and at least a little bit relieved) to find I'm not actually the only person who had the center pages of the book just come off without any sort of force being applied to them. Ed, what cover was yours? I got the "main" Nakayama cover--I'd have gone for the Justice League homage if I'd spotted it at the comic book store--and I wonder if there's any correlation. I'm actually not sure what to do; the idea of double-dipping on a book I actually didn't care for (in short, I feel there's far too little of substance to make it enjoyable as a stand-alone introductory issue, in ways that feel emblematic of Greg's approach to writing) is not appealing, but I would also like to have an intact version.
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 11:35:01 pm EST from 168.91.192.232

Just finished hearing the second "Voices of the Eyrie" podcast, continuing the "making of the show" story. While most of the content was familiar to me, there was a neat new story in it about an earthquake in 1994. And some excited talk about the gargoyles merchandise that was just coming out a year ago (such as the NECA figures). (They also discussed how, with a book on the art of the FOX X-Men series out, someone would do a similar book on the art of "Gargoyles", but no plans for that at present.) There was some discussion on how they so accurately caught the look of New York City in the show.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 8:41:40 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

" It's not a coincidence that they were primarily created by American Jews in the days where America was neutral in WWII. "

Interesting.
B
B
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 8:21:43 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

JURGAN - [(My favorite is when The Mad Hatter is told he could have just respected Alice's wishes to be left alone, and he responds that he'd have killed her first. That version of the Hatter was a frighteningly accurate prediction of incel culture.)]

I remember that scene. (I also got a kick out of the immediate follow-up when the Hatter realizes, after saying it, that it hadn't helped his case and asking for it to be stricken from the record; the Joker, who's acting as judge, says "Record? Is someone supposed to be writing this down?")
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 12:49:15 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

The idea of villains who want to fight heroes as a challenge isn't new, Spider-Man had Kraven the Hunter, for example. That was back in the days where Stan was writing a dozen comics a month and they weren't all thought out in depth (though as always, the importance of Stan vs. Steve is up for debate). The cynical deconstruction of course gained prominence with Watchmen, but I think a lot of it comes from treating superhero universes like they're the real world. In the real world, I think it would be quite dangerous to have people with extreme abilities fighting each other in populated areas, but that doesn't mean the same is true of fantasy worlds. Maybe Jameson was right and Spider-Man never should have been a masked hero, but does that mean he should just trust the police to do everything right?

The earliest I am aware of the "heroes create villains" trope being used was in the Batman: TAS episode "The Trial." Batman is kidnapped and given a show trial where the villains accuse him of creating them. But the ultimate conclusion was that they all were awful people all along, and Batman was just a lightning rod that drew their violence to himself. (My favorite is when The Mad Hatter is told he could have just respected Alice's wishes to be left alone, and he responds that he'd have killed her first. That version of the Hatter was a frighteningly accurate prediction of incel culture.)

So I agree that it's a cynical view mostly espoused by people trying to sound smart and edgy. It misses the romance of superheroes- that of people frustrated by the apathy of their fellow citizens and saying "fine, if no one else is doing anything, I'll help." It's not a coincidence that they were primarily created by American Jews in the days where America was neutral in WWII. That said, there are interesting stories to be told about the doctrine of unintended consequences. We're seeing this in Gargoyles right now [SPOILER] with the gang war that was only possible because the heroes took down Dracon [/SPOILER].

"Vandal Savage said it was the rise of the Justice League that motivated him to form the Light"

But all the members were already active supervillains, correct? He may have reorganized them, but he didn't make them bad people.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 11:13:56 am EST from 129.24.53.132

In Young Justice, Vandal Savage said it was the rise of the Justice League that motivated him to form the Light (although we later see that this only applies to the current incarnation of the Light and he's had cabals under that name before in history).
B
B
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 10:31:01 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Matthew> And again, I think it's execution besides skill can depend on the writer and crew viewpoints, especially with comic/animation writers who feel apologetic for the medium they work on, thus the heavy cynicism like how doing good is futile.

As an aside, another thing I like about TSSM and YJ (Plus W.I.T.C.H.), yeah Greg and crew won't depict a teen character like say Peter Parker as say like the Silver Age Dick Grayson/Robin or having the actual DG being perfect.

But unlike something such as Man of Actions Ultimate Spider-Man or most of their Ben 10, it's more like a flawed character who happens to be young VS a statement about how modern kids-teens are the worst part of humanity.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 4:14:33 am EST from 71.84.183.196

So I put some thought to last week's comments on the nature of villains and their relationship to heroes and whether they are in part their because of the heroes. This line of thinking is actually a bit more recent than some thing, mostly tied to the theme of escalation brought up by The Dark Knight Trilogy and the MCU, and even the latter isn't exactly perfect in its notion that "strength invites challenge." But I'd like to examine this through some of Greg's works. I already covered some of Gargoyles and how many of their antagonists' motivations are separate from the heroes.

Young Justice is similar to Avengers: EMH in that this is a world where heroes and villains are already well established. Going by the timeline, costumed heroes and villains have been at each other since the early 20th century and the forces of good and evil have been duking it out via colorful character long before that.

In Spectacular Spider-Man Tombstone's crime empire has existed before Pete was bitten by the super bug, and he mostly usurped that empire from Silvermane after he was put away. The first real supervillain was created not because of Spider-Man but because Norman screwed over Adrian Toomes, all Tombstone did at that point was bring in some mercenaries to kill Peter. Out of his wheelhouse, but not out of the ordinary. It was only after battling Electro and the Lizard (both created by accident) that the Dark Powers at Be realized that Spidey fighting super criminals allows ordinary crime to operate with minimum interference. And if you consider Norman's comments about helping create Shocker, mainly to screw over Tri-Corp in the super mercenary business, then the use of outfitting mercenaries with less-than-legal tech isn't a new one either.

Tombstone and Hammerhead may have spearheaded the idea of siccing supervillains on Spider-Man in response to his crime fighting, but at the same time those plans also created their biggest competition in the form of Dr. Octopus' Sinister Syndicate and the Green Goblin. Heck, Norman created the Green Goblin in response to being attacked by the Vulture, who was created by Norman's less than legal business stratagems. You could very well argue that it's the villains own actions that lead to their downfall.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Dec 12, 2022 3:20:46 am EST from 98.248.2.24

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 18, 2022

Index : Hide Images