It occurred to me that Hudson's Mate could be his second. Possible, but I don't feel it. I'll bet it'll be someone we have not met yet. Or Second. Keep in mind that when Goliath took over as leader in 984, the Wyvern Clan had not split yet and Second was still living at Wyvern.
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Sun, Apr 30, 2023 5:19:40 pm EDT from 24.107.111.141

Hudson's Mate as his second would add some precedence to Goliath picking Demona. At the very least, seeing how Hudson picks Goliath will add to the variety of this gargoyle custom from what we've seen and learned when Brooklyn was picked.

Maybe if 'Second' was Hudson's original second, perhaps the reason he no longer was could be as simple as leaving with the splintered Wyvern Clan as their new leader (until Demona took them all under her wing years later).

It is truly a delight that we have multiple arcs to speculate on! Even a year ago, who would have thought?
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 9:47:55 pm EDT from 68.2.64.232

Maybe Hudson's mate was his original second-in-command.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 8:14:08 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Interesting thoughts.

I'm starting to wonder if the Keys to Power element in this storyline will almost be a swerve where Demona arrives in Manhattan to further her master plan, catches sight of a newspaper and shelves what she's doing about these items to focus on the issue of Goliath.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 6:42:35 pm EDT from 31.94.61.141

I'm certainly not expecting to see Staghart soon. I guess I meant that I hope to see him by the end of "Here in Manhattan". Hence why I mentioned seeing him sometime this year. I seriously doubt we'd see him in the next couple of chapters...

However! We still don't know anything about the new three keys of power. Considering that the London Clan runs a magic shop with legitimate magic items, there could be a link there. The Trickster story could be an interesting time to bring him in as well. Good thinking.

A thought: Could Hudson's original second in command be Second (the gargoyle from Demona's Clan)? That puts some new layers to his story for sure.
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 6:31:14 pm EDT from 24.107.111.141

Matt: To be honest, with the gang war, the trial and Demona coming up, plus potentially a plot around the egg and more about Renard, the comic is already bursting at the seams. In light of this, I'm personally in no hurry to see Staghart in person during "Here in Manhattan". I really hope (and somewhat expect) he's a major player in the next arc however. Given the multiple references to Avalon specifically (in the same way there were multiple references to Demona before she strictly needed to be introduced), my hunch is that Avalon and the Third Race (maybe even Mab?) will play a big part of arc 2 -- it's also an area of the universe that neither "Clan-Building" nor "Here in Manhattan" have done much with. And of course, the trickster story Greg's mentioned became the Lex-focused "Ransom" so I figure this will be a good time to develop the Lex/Staghart relationship - it frequently seems to be the more elaborate trickster episodes that provoke the bigger leaps forward in the characters' romantic lives ("The Mirror", "Possession", even "Vows" which is kind of a trickster story in its own way).

I agree, I'm keen to meet the different gargoyles, especially Hudson's mate. And you have to think Demona's biological parents and possibly biological siblings will be there. I think it's going to be a fascinating spin-off.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 6:21:32 pm EDT from 31.94.61.141

Lacking the emotionality that the finale had.
But 100 out of 10 on the humor scale.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 4:15:41 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

What might have happened in the finale according to MoringMark: https://moringmark.tumblr.com/post/715943381336047616

Titanella Nosa.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 1:33:06 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

One thing that really struck me in the news section of the podcast was Greg saying that [SPOILER] Amp is showing up in a chat room, but it wasn't time to reintroduce Staghart YET. Emphasis mine. I hope we get to see flesh and blood Amp sometime this year! [/SPOILER]

Regarding Dark Ages, Greg commented that 971 was before Goliath was even Second yet. That's got me wondering who Hudson's Second was. Will that gargoyle survive past 971? I'm also wondering if we'll see Hudson's mate finally. I wonder if she'll survive through the end of this mini-series as well... Looking forward to it all!

I like the idea of "Three Brothers" being a written prologue to the Dark Ages comic. Very cool and nice to make it canon!
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 12:13:49 pm EDT from 24.107.111.141

I can imagine it being like the debate over whether Koko the gorilla really understood the sign language she was using.

CRAIG - That sounds like a great find.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 9:20:47 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Ha, whoops. Ed is just getting credited for everything this week!
Craig
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 9:02:38 am EDT from 107.122.157.70

Craig: That was Phoenician, actually!

Matthew: Interesting point. I think their sentience can be denied though for quite a long time. In a world of robots and trickstery people like Xanatos, the bar might be even higher to proving themselves. Maybe I’m cynical but I think many people have a truly epic ability to cling to preconceived ideas in the face of emerging evidence. That said, I would love Goliath to win over Margot at least to seeing him as intelligent.

Antiyonder: I’m now definitely leaning towards that, given the 971 setting.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 3:31:52 am EDT from 86.146.52.60

Ed> Thanks for the guidance on "Dream." I found JEB's con journal. Not a ton of info, but definitely intriguing. Still glad we're getting something potentially smaller-scale and more grounded in real Scottish history, which is always exciting for me in this world. But "Dream" also sounds awesome and I hope to see it soon.

As to the Krisel meeting, I figured it was substantially later than the "Outfoxed" memo. But that just makes it even clearer that Goof Troop and Bonkers were WAY in the rearview mirror by that point, so those shows were not what was occupying Gary's attention. Minor quibble, and I know Greg is always open about the fact that his memory is fallible, but from a position of accurately portraying Disney TV animation history, just wanted to throw that out there.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 2:08:08 am EDT from 209.140.46.232

Gargoyles: Dream -- Unless it was broken down more in one of the conventions I didn't attend, I think JEB's Conjournal for the 2008 Gathering is the most detail we have at this time (which is one of the citations on the GargWiki Dark Ages page). I've only been lucky enough to go to the 2009 Gathering and 2014 CONvergence (but I'm definitely planning for 2024 CONvergence!)

I think this latest Voices from the Eyrie podcast has detail that I personally never heard before, part of the reason why Dream needed to be told before Pendragon: [SPOILER] because Brooklyn's first TimeDance in 997 had some relevance/resonance Greg Weisman wanted readers to connect with. [/SPOILER]

Craig: Pretty sure the Gary Krisel story was just a segue from the discussion that "Outfoxed" introduced Fox's pregnancy. It's not in any of the rambles on S8 from what I can tell, but I suspect the memo dates for episodes post-Gathering would be a better indication of when the lunch meeting happened, given the infamous moment of "we've already done it" and this response: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=25177

In other news, our favorite rock is taking a road trip: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-65411666
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 1:44:12 am EDT from 68.2.64.232

Given the mention of the mini having prose, I'm wondering if "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" will be in the first issue and become canon.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Apr 29, 2023 12:13:54 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Gargoyles definitely sparked an interest in Scottish history for me, although I’m not nearly as knowledgeable as Todd. I visited Scotland a few years ago, and at a book fair in Edinburgh purchased a 19th century edition History of Scotland by a Thomas Wright, which is a fascinating read.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 10:51:33 pm EDT from 107.122.157.70

Just listened to the latest "Voices From the Eyrie" podcast, on "Outfoxed".

One element about "Outfoxed" that stands out to me is the way that Renard so quickly picks up on Goliath being sentient and can comprehend what he's saying about integrity. I've long suspected that it was a case of him feeling so strongly about taking responsibility for your actions that Goliath's "It was not my fault" line makes him forget that he's speaking to a bat-winged "creature" that looks like he belongs in a fantasy book. (Of course, there's an indication in the dialogue that Renard initially thought that Goliath was one of the Mutates turned out by Sevarius.) [SPOILER] It stands out all the more, just after witnessing Margot's conviction in the comic that Goliath's just a savage beast. [/SPOILER]

And, yes, I'm really looking forward to the "Dark Ages" continuation of "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers". I particularly liked that story's integration of 10th century Scottish history in the story, and was eager to read up more about the originals in it. Though medieval history interests me a lot, most of the historical characters in it were new to me - except for Duff (the oldest of the three brothers), whom I'd read about (mainly that the account of his death in Holinshed's Chronicles was Shakespeare's inspiration for the murder of Duncan in "Macbeth" - only the Gargoyle Universe's version of Duff's fate reminded me more of Uther Pendragon, namely the part about going into his last battle in a litter). I wonder just how many of us have indeed read up on that part of Scotland's history thanks to "Gargoyles". (I've imagined Brooklyn dropping in on other parts of Scottish history during his Timedancing, for that matter. Possibly even things like coming to the aid of an evicted family during the Highland Clearances.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 10:42:10 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

[SPOILER] Margot is definitely antagonistic but not villainous, at least not yet. Part of the reason I've speculated about the future and what that means as the public becomes more aware of the gargoyles is because unlike tigers or wild predatory animals their sentience is something that can't be denied. So whether Margot changes for the better, remains antagonistic or becomes genuinely bad for our heroes depends on what she does with her prejudice in light of Goliath's, "I think therefore I am."

But this is all speculation at this point. We'll have to wait and see. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 7:23:32 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

So glad I made that Beauty and the Beast article on Gargwiki.:-)

Anyone see this trailer for the upcoming toon "Hailey's On It"?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHE6u2Aq0aU

Looks fun.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 6:35:51 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Could someone post the premise of the Dark Ages "Dream" story? Greg said he's mentioned what it's about, but I couldn't find any info on Gargwiki or Ask Greg beyond the title.

I love when Gargoyles integrates actual Scottish history, so I too am glad that we're getting a continuation of "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers..."

Ed > Interesting analysis of the realities of comic book production. Everything you say makes complete sense. I agree that Nate seems to run a tight operation.

As an Assistant District Attorney, Margot would be hired, not elected. However, if she's eventually gunning for the top job in the office, that of District Attorney, she would need to run for election. [SPOILER] Since this isn't a criminal case, it seems that she is not appearing in her capacity as an Assistant District Attorney, but rather in her capacity as the sole attorney on the GTF. But obviously that publicity could benefit--or damage--any potential political ambitions if she harbors them. [/SPOILER]

"Outfoxed": Greg has alluded to Robert Culp's perfectionism in the booth before, but it was really interesting to hear him talk about the specific dynamics in depth.

I always enjoy Greg's story about the potentially disastrous lunch with Gary Krisel, but I do think he's got one detail wrong. He says Gary had been concentrating on production problems with Goof Troop and Bonkers. However, the "Outfoxed" story memo Greg posted is dated November 1994, and presumably this lunch would have been weeks if not months after that. Bonkers aired its last episode in February 1994, and Goof Troop aired its last episode a year before that, so both shows were long out of production by the time Alexander was conceived (in both senses of the word). Perhaps it was Quack Pack/Duck Daze and/or Mighty Ducks that were having production problems? Those certainly ended up being two of the weakest Disney Afternoon shows.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 6:18:04 pm EDT from 63.143.205.171

I am DELIGHTED at the discussion about ‘Dark Ages’ on the new ‘Voices’. Nothing against “Dream” which I’m sure would have been fantastic, maybe even more exciting than this story, but something about telling a story from the middle of the ‘Dark Ages’ run just made me a bit sad. I like the idea of starting at “the beginning” (to the extent that anything is “the beginning” in a universe like this) and I really love that we’re going to continue from “Once Upon A Time There Are Three Brothers”. I’m fascinated by this period and it just feels so good to have a true origin story. Of course, I realise there’s no way we’re ever likely to cover all 23 years in the comic but I still like the idea of going back to the beginning.

Interesting that Greg pitched all the spin-offs. With SLG, where I guess Greg had more influence since Creature Comics were running it, the primary direction appeared to be the timeline. Here, I have to say, I think Dynamite and Disney are probably right to think that ‘Dark Ages’ has the most sales potential at this juncture. Doing the prequel origin story in your superhero franchise doesn’t usually turn out to be a bad move and it sticks with the core roster of characters we know so well.

I do wonder what this means for future spin-offs. Obviously, I don’t want the good fortune to dry up so let’s hope DA sells well, but if it does…

I’ve kind of assumed that we’d get a similar game plan to SLG - rotating mini-series, roughly following Greg’s timeline - but that doesn’t sound like it’s necessarily a consideration. Disney and Dynamite could well say that ‘Dark Ages’ is doing well so let’s keep riding that train (and frankly, given the scope of the Alliance story, I would LOVE if it were booted up to being 12 issues at least to give it that “City of Stone” kind of epic canvas - I’m assuming, if perhaps without any actual evidence - it’s 6).

Does this make spin-offs a little further removed from the core cast less likely? I’d think ‘Timedancer’ has a lot stronger chance of selling strongly than ‘Bad Guys’ or ‘Pendragon’ in this case. Unless of course, a different approach is taken - could ‘Bad Guys’ and ‘Pendragon’ fare better in a ‘Tales from the Gargoyles Universe’ type ongoing? It’ll be fascinating to see.

Oh, and Greg’s finally dropped a one-worder on us: “Alliance”. Rad.

[SPOILER] The trial/hearing revelation was really interesting. I don’t know enough about the American legal system (or any legal system, frankly) to really know the differences in any kind of granular detail but it certainly sounds like the perfect way to handle something like this. [/SPOILER]

Craig: Yes, the timeline of the comic’s development does puzzle me. My understanding of comics is always that the covers are done long in advance of anything else, so that solicitation materials can be released, so that’s not unusual. Also, it’s not like the line art has to be finished for anything else to happen: the colours and letters can potentially be completed a day or two behind the line art. By now, for all we know, #6 is complete but for Disney’s stamp. So being a month from release isn’t necessarily that tight - just because there was once a 2 month delay doesn’t mean that’s necessarily standard.

Having said that, without raking over where they were at previous points, it does feel like the deadlines are tightening. George Kambadais seems to be pretty fast but I think he has another mini-series he’s been working on (unless it was completed before he started ‘Gargoyles’) and it seems like Drew Moss is doing #8 which perhaps was slotted in to build in some time. Also Arancia came on as colourists from #4. But, of course, all sorts of things can happen - people get ill, have family emergencies. There could be any number of reasons that are ultimately none of our business and honestly I think Nate has more than earned trust to manage all of this judiciously so I'm confident it'll all resolve itself.

As to pay, I guess the success of the comic (at least initially) gives Dynamite flexibility to pay more competitively but they’re still going to want to keep their margins - it would be great to secure George on a longer-term basis as he’s a great artist and I also love having a consistent look for the comic (at least until he inevitably, and deservedly, moves onto Spider-Man!). And of course, the chance to buy more of Greg’s time would be terrific.

I definitely agree we’re lucky to have George, Nate and, of course, insanely lucky to have Greg.

As for approvals, my guess is that the Disney appeals process probably isn’t drastically different (we’ve already heard some strange requests like the “Tale As Old As Time” title being edited) but that SLG’s schedule of one issue every blue moon is much lower on the priority list than Dynamite’s regular schedule. Plus, ‘Gargoyles’ isn’t their only Disney book - they’re pumping out loads with ‘Darkwing’ and the Disney villains series, whereas if I recall, hardly any of SLG’s other Disney properties made it past an issue or two. Disney has to appreciate the economies of scale - you can imagine there being a person or group of people who are given regular time for this whereas the SLG books were always likely to be an afterthought because they were so infrequent.

(The economies of scale issue may also affect Dynamite - assuming the licence has both a percentage component and a flat fee, their best strategy to ameliorate the costs of the flat fee is to pump out a load of books and thereby make it a smaller percentage of their expenditure. This might give them more of a sense of urgency to really expand the comic line rather than spending too long dangling their feet. Of course, if one licence just covers a smorgasbord of franchises then they’ve already now got a deep bench. If ‘Gargoyles’ has its own separate licence, there’s definitely more incentive for them to push out more books faster.)

Matthew: [SPOILER] In fairness to Margot, and it’s interesting that the Gregs got into this on “Voices from the Eyrie”, I’m not sure she’s such a monster as to want to rile up anger against the gargoyles or to want Goliath put down.

What she said in “Nightwatch” was, from an outside perspective… pretty fair. Capture them, study them, nurture them, but don’t let them run free in the city. Look, I love tigers and don’t want them put down, but I don’t want them loose in my neighbourhood either.

What she’s saying here is, from the vantage of her interpretation of what she knows, fair. And sure, she’s narrow-minded and clearly it hasn’t even occurred to her to give a more generous interpretation to what she’s seen. We don’t know she’s publicity-hungry (except that she has an interest in this specific debate and has… are DAs political positions?). We don’t know she wants any of the gargoyles dead.

I think a character can be unlikeable and an antagonist without being villainous and I think that’s where Margot is. I’d be disappointed frankly if she did some kind of grand heel turn because the world is much more interesting otherwise. [/SPOILER]

“Outfoxed”… I really need to rewatch this. I always had mixed feelings about it - with the long flashbacks, weaker animation and almost complete lack of regular cast members, I never think of it as a favourite. Plus, robots as enemies never really grab me. But it was also one of the first episodes I taped (once I realised - and it seems incomprehensible to me now that it took weeks on end to realise - that it would be a good idea to tape these episodes) and it always has a special place in my heart for that reason.

At any rate, I found the discussion about Xanatos and Fox really fascinating and insightful and I loved hearing behind the scenes of the recording booth.

I hadn’t noticed before but this tier really does open up the gargoyles’ allies roster: Renard, Matt and Talon. A great episode.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 5:09:49 pm EDT from 86.146.52.60

My recent Gargoyles pick ups and some other comics for the rest of this month: https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-7-960123557
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 3:49:44 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Sorry for the double post...I must have hit the "submit" button twice. And now, sorry for the triple post. But just wanted to comment that the new Voices from the Eyrie podcast is out, focusing on "Outfoxed." It's a good one, as always.

The opening "news" segment pays tribute to the late great Michael Reaves, and as usual discusses the latest issue of the comic. One thing I found interesting is that as of the recording (which was two days ago, apparently), George Kambadais had apparently just finished the uncolored art for #6. Considering that that issue is only a month from release, they seem to be working on a much tighter schedule than I would have guessed. I recall during the SLG run, Greg discussed how slow the Disney approvals process was and how sometimes issues would be in limbo for weeks or even months after completion waiting for Disney to rubber-stamp the contents. I guess Disney seems to have streamlined their process (or maybe just doesn't care as much anymore?). In any event, kudos to Greg and George for keeping to the monthly schedule. I can't imagine that either of them are being paid all THAT generously for work that is clearly time-intensive. Greg's dedication to the property goes without saying at this point, but it's wonderful that George seems equally devoted to doing great work every month and really pouring his heart and soul onto every page, and delivering them on time. This also means that the covers and solicitation blurbs are being released long before the interior artwork has even been started on these issues.

Also, a slight spoiler for upcoming issues is mentioned by Greg:
[SPOILER] The ultimate proceeding in Goliath's court case will NOT be a trial, although Greg's initial Season 3 outline in the 1990s did refer to it as "Trial of Goliath." It will actually be a hearing. Which makes a lot more sense than a "trial for sentience." As I noted previously, this will likely take the form of, or at least resemble, a habeas proceeding, with the question of Goliath's "personhood" at issue to determine whether he has a fundamental "human" right to not be imprisoned.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Apr 28, 2023 12:28:18 am EDT from 63.143.201.229

[SPOILER] The use of the term "second" amused me because my first association was with historical duels, where each party would have a second, a friend or acquaintance who would assist and mediate before and during the duel. Hopefully commitment ceremonies aren't quite as adversarial!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 9:04:00 pm EDT from 209.140.37.14

[SPOILER] The use of the term "second" amused me because my first association was with historical duels, where each party would have a second, a friend or acquaintance who would assist and mediate before and during the duel. Hopefully commitment ceremonies aren't quite as adversarial!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 9:03:59 pm EDT from 209.140.37.14

To start off, sorry to hear about your cat, B. My family had a calico for about 20 years and losing her was hard.
Finally got a chance to read issue #5, everyone’s pretty much written everything I could say about the comic, so I’ll just discuss some thoughts and where I think it will go from here.
[SPOILER] This was a strong issue, and I liked Brooklyn’s step into leadership, showing a very militaristic plan for breaking in and extraction. I too hope to see more of how he came to be in “Time Dancer.” I also liked that “wisdom from the gutters” moment where Goliath realizes that he needs to stay in prison and see this through due to the taunting from Dracon and Brod. Show that while the Clan may be willing to work with the system to bring down villains they’re also not above that system.
The big tension for this though is that the current and future conflict is going to be walking on the edge of a knife from here on. Matt’s the current head of the Gargoyle Task Force and is now in the unenviable position of actually having to deal with a captured gargoyle. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the tension between him and Eliza, this could very well be a make it or break it moment between their relationship.
Another big thing is that we’re in the classic “hero in prison” scenario, Goliath is being overseen by a guard who’s showing some sadistic tendencies (never a good idea if you’ve seen “Young Frankenstein”), and locked in with plenty of criminals that he helped put away. I can’t be certain whether it was Dino’s plan to put Goliath and the others into the crosshairs of the task force, but if it was it worked beautifully and that moment’s hesitation from Hudson is now allowing the agreement between the families to fall apart and for the gang war to in full swing.
Legally speaking both parties are in a tight spot. Margot undoubtedly loves the publicity and would certainly welcome the chance to rail against the gargoyles and have the public decry them as monsters. At the same time, she has no idea that the accused party can speak, think and reason (and I’d love for Goliath to point out that he predates the United States government to her much less its legal system to her) so she might want to wrap this up quickly and either have him locked away or put down. On the defense side of things, the more Goliath has the chance to speak and demonstrate his sense of self is more chances to prove to the public that the gargoyles aren’t mindless beasts. However, the longer he’s going through this the longer he has to remain in prison and that gives plenty of chances for him to not live to see his verdict.
The endgame for Dino seems to be destabilize the families and allow the Dracons to seize control from the chaos. On the one hand, this could work, on the other this might go very poorly. Kidnapping the kids and driving the crime bosses to full all out could very well become bigger than the legal drama with the gargoyles. I remember hearing something along the lines of “Profits can be made in war and peace, but chaos benefits no one.” I wouldn’t be surprised if Dino’s machinations get the gang war to the point where the rest of the Dracons have to team up with the police or even the Clan to get him out of the family.
In conclusion, this feels like the story is teasing a lot of “nuclear options.” What the Dracons risk by targeting kids, what the Clan might engage in if something should happen to Goliath while he’s in jail, and just what powers are working behind the scenes for the Task Force and the legal defense.
Can’t wait for the next issue. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 8:15:23 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

One other thought on this issue. [SPOILER] The talk about Broadway and Angela having seconds at their commitment ceremony suggests that the roles of best man and maid of honor at Xanatos and Fox's wedding in "Vows" might not have been so foreign to Goliath and Demona. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 7:59:47 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Matt: I laughed too but I can't take credit - that bit of genius is all Craig.

Great thoughts in your review.

I agree with your interpretation of "Render Unto Caesar". Even impositions which seem unjust are to be accepted from Caesar/the GTF, but Goliath will also stay true to his values as a gargoyle (the "render unto God" part).

(I also think, it's a great encapsulation of the difference with TGC. TGC went with "And Justice For All": an optimistic quote that raises up the principles of the US justice system with a clear message very familiar to American children - assuming that television is accurate and children recite the pledge of allegiance every day in class! Greg went with "Render Unto Caesar", a somewhat more literate reference that really speaks to Goliath's character and how he and the human race really are in separate spheres. I always liked "And Justice For All" well enough as a title but this is such a cut above).

Interesting that you pointed out that Matt seeking the clan's trust is a regular theme. The irony being that Matt is one of the least trustful people.

It hadn't occurred to me but it makes absolute sense that Angela might want the Avalon clan to see her commitment ceremony.

(Although Gnash is likely dead by 2198 - I think he'd be 110ish? biologically - if he spent time on Avalon he could still be alive. Or, for all we know, he time-travels with Brooklyn as an adult. However, if he has any children, they would likely still be alive.)

GREAT spot that the guard is from "Leader of the Pack".

Craig: Fascinating insights as ever. Judge Roebling needing to recuse himself might become significant later - but then again, since the only proof that's likely to exist is if there are any pictures of them chatting at Hallowe'en, Margot could face similar criticism. (I do wonder if/when "Invitation Only" will pay off - it's still possibly my favourite issue for all the great Xanatos and Illuminati machinations).

Thanks for reminding me about "Reawakening". I remembered he had a scene but I'd forgotten the specifics.

I'd also like to see more of the long-term plan - it would be great to see another meeting of the GTC. We haven't seen them all together in a long time.

The article is really interesting. Mind you, this story is set 25 years ago before a lot of these animal rights movements gained traction (I don't remember if I'd even heard of veganism in the 90s).

Is Elisa's colour to go with her jacket? After all, she doesn't have a predominant "colour" in the same way the gargoyles do.

Phoenician: Great list. I do expect Taro to come back into play sooner than later - he seems like one of those characters with a lot of scope for development.

Alex: Great point about people witnessing the gargoyles turning to stone - I'd like to see that. (It's funny, a few issues ago people were complaining that the pace was too slow but this issue really does go like grease lightning. Goliath is captured, there's a court hearing, there's a rescue attempt and a twist ending plus multiple subplots.)

Todd: Interesting thoughts, as ever.
Ed
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 12:18:21 pm EDT from 5.81.29.146

Ed> "(presumably, they've seen the Goliath Chronicles episode)." HA. I laughed hard at this.

Phoenician> [SPOILER] I hadn't considered Demona as a potential backer until you mentioned it. We know she's coming up. Could she have funded Goliath's capture to keep him out of the picture for her next scheme? [/SPOILER]
Matt
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 10:35:43 am EDT from 12.14.29.34

[SPOILER] Oh, and I forgot to mention it, but we've also the question of who the mysterious benefactor is to the Gargoyle Task Force. That's another question I'm looking forward to getting answers to. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 9:36:55 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

My thoughts on #5.

[SPOILER] I'm continuing to enjoy it. I'm especially curious about the new character, Tobe Crest. This is his first appearance, and yet he seems well-acquainted with the gargoyles' true nature; he even knows about Goliath's reading tastes. Somebody must have briefed him - Renard, perhaps (assuming that the theory from #4 is correct)? I also liked the touch of Roebling having to conceal just how much he knows about Goliath (I hadn't considered the possibility that he'd be the judge, but that adds some extra drama to the proceedings).

I also enjoyed the exploration - or the start of the exploration - of Goliath's situation (made clear by both the scene between Hudson and Matt and the Riker's Island scene at the end). Goliath's captors are the human authorities, not some super-villain, meaning that if the gargoyles simply try breaking him out as if he was being held prisoner by one of their regular adversaries, they'd be going up against human law. I liked the touch of Tony Dracon commenting on it, which apparently leads Goliath to ask Brooklyn to call off the break-out.

I also enjoyed Hudson's narration, including his musings on his name, and the fact that he regards Goliath as his son in the "clan-child" sense. And we now have some idea of what Dino's plan was for his rivals; I'd thought that his plan was to use Rosaria and Peter as hostages to force their relatives' gangs to submit to him, but instead, it's to manipulate them into fighting each other which now seems like an even better plan; he can then simply watch as they wipe each other out.

Looking forward to seeing how the story develops in the next issue - and, yes, this is turning into a much better story than "And Justice For All". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 9:16:13 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Sorry, B. :( Losing a pet is really rough. I know.

[SPOILER] Loving this arc and especially this issue. Some of the language is a bit flowery and a little too over the top for my taste, but I really loved the flow of the story and all the different perspectives here. Everyone felt really represented despite only appearing on a page or two, very efficient storytelling. Also nice to see some stuff done with Coldstone & Coldfire.

The new lawyer character's neat. I like him. Judge Roebling is cool too.

Mysterious benefactor... probably the Illuminati or more likely the Quarrymen. I doubt it'd suit Xanatos's purposes to support the police, or Thailog's, certainly not Renard's.

Brod and Dracon being Goliath's neighbours made me burst out laughing.

The story does kinda skimp over some kind of neat details I wanted to see. Like the public or guards reacting to Goliath turning to stone; stuff like that. But it's understandable and I'm shocked at how not rushed this story seemed. I'm really into the Sanchez/Choi drama. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 12:16:15 am EDT from 70.27.162.19

[SPOILER] I do somewhat suspect that Renard is behind both the GTF funding AND Goliath's attorney. By getting Goliath captured, Renard forces Goliath into the public eye, and then provides him with the best representation to demonstrate to all the world that he is intelligent and well-meaning. This fits with Renard watching the news coverage and saying that something needs to be done, indicating that he is going on the offensive on behalf of the gargoyles (as opposed to just providing Goliath with a lawyer once he's captured, a purely defensive/reactionary move). And he knows Goliath well enough to trust that Goliath's integrity will be on display (as we see when he refuses to escape from custody).

The biggest problem with this theory is: Why wouldn't he have given the gargoyles a heads-up? Maybe he was afraid they wouldn't buy into the plan if he told them?
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Apr 27, 2023 12:12:16 am EDT from 63.143.193.54

#5 "Render Unto Caesar" -- [SPOILER] I agree that Renard is more likely to be the benefactor behind Goliath's attorney fees than as the money supporting the GTF.

But I figure it can't hurt to wonder who could be sponsoring them.

In no particular order, but some more likely than others.
--The Illuminati: As established in "Invitation Only", they aren't afraid have their hands in multiple cookie jars, and this could just be the latest step.
--John Castaway (aka, when he's not clocking in as Thirty-Six). There is 'Canmore money' to be spoken of, but Quarryman antics seem to be primarily funded by Peredur's pyramid these days.
--Macbeth. He's got the resources, but motive wouldn't make sense.
--Demona. She's got the resources, but she's usually more claws-on.
--Taro. He clearly follows news from New York City, and might have figured out Goliath's from the Big Apple.
--The Director and/or Monsieur Le Maire. They have resources, and I'm curious if they're funding more than just the Redemption Squad.
--Xanatos (aka, when he's not clocking in as Thirty-Six). Can't rule him out with the cash he has, but I don't see the angle right now.
--Thailog. (aka, when he's not clocking in as Thirty-Six). Can't rule him out with the cash he has, and he's manipulative enough to find new ways to torment Goliath.
--Brentwood. He could already be pulling the wool over Thailog's eyes, but that seems early in the timeline.

Who else has cash in this universe?

I can't see any of the New York mob families having that kind of cash, but with so many new players, its unclear. Besides, they all seem quite preoccupied.

Did Brooklyn inherit some Phoenix-fueled assets? [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 11:53:11 pm EDT from 68.2.64.232

Matt> [SPOILER] Good call on the coloring of the narrator blurbs in each issue. Although it's a bit odd that Elisa is pink in #1. Pink is not really a color I'd associate with Elisa.

Margot is in a suit, but still wearing her typical sweatband in court, which I found funny.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 9:45:30 pm EDT from 63.143.201.2

As usual, I'm posting my thoughts on Chapter 5 having read or heard from no one. So, these are my pure thoughts. I've probably missed some things, so I look forward to reading what you all have to say, but here we go:

[SPOILER] - So, our narrator on this one is Hudson. I'm glad to see it! With all the new and young faces in the clan, I'm glad he's not getting lost or left out. That said, I'm not totally sure this should've been his chapter. His perspective at the beginning was needed, but after that... He wasn't really even present for the remaining events. Not a big deal, I guess I'm still trying to get a handle on how these chapter narrators work. I do love that nearly three years later, Hudson is still uneasy about having a name. I guess over a hundred years without one counts for more. I also love that Hudson calls Goliath his son a couple times. It's a sweet perspective that has never really been mentioned. Good stuff. Also, anyone else notice that the narrator text boxes reflect the coloring of the narrator? Didn't strike me until this chapter.
- The chapter title, "Render Unto Caesar" is interesting. All the chapter titles for Here in Manhattan have felt more grown up and deeper than the series episode titles and the SLG titles. Here we get a Bible quote, I believe. I'm still thinking about this one. I suppose it is relating to how you gotta follow the law and pay the costs of being in society.
- Bluestone confirms that it was indeed the GTF capturing Goliath. Guess he could only run interference for so long. Now the GTF has made a big move. I like how he talks Hudson down. Even reminding him that attacking now would be attacking the cops! And Bluestone asks for trust. This has always been a theme with Matt and the Clan.
- Back at the Castle we get into the two storylines I was most excited for: Lex and Broadway/Angela. Both of my hunches were confirmed and I'm thrilled. I love that Lex is indeed chatting with Amp. It is so fun to have more of Amp even in this form. And their conversation is pretty cute. And what a joy to see a happy and smiling Lexington for the first time since driving the car in Chapter 1! Love it and can't wait to see this storyline play out. It is certainly hitting me at a very personal level and I'm seeing a lot of my much younger self in Lex here. But I'll leave it at that for now. Meanwhile, we Broadway and Angela have asked Coldfire to officiate their Commitment Ceremony! Part of me feels this is pretty fast for the two of them. They've known each other less than a year. But sometimes when you know, you know. And it sounds like they know. I've always been fascinated by gargoyles culture and biology, so it is very cool to see more of this here. Apparently, the idea of choosing a second isn't confined to leadership. That's a neat concept. Broadway of course thinks of Lex and Brooklyn right away, though with both he seems to finally be noticing their growing distance. It's like it didn't occur to him until he was thinking of his Second that the obvious choices have both drifted over the past year. Angela chooses Elisa without hesitation. That's a cute nod to their sisterly bond. Then, she throws in Katana. I thought that was interesting. We've seen little of their relationship. Does Angela just want her to feel included? Or does she feel the need for a gargoyle Second? I'd find it very interesting is Katana were to decline. I wonder if you are allowed only one Second. Looking forward to finding out more and seeing this aspect of gargoyle culture play out. It'd be fun if she invites some of her family on Avalon to attend! Let's get Boudicca back to Manhattan for Bronx while we are at it. Also, I love the continued development of Coldfire as a sort of priest for the clan. Neat stuff.
- The Brooklyn/Gnash scene was cute. Nice to have a father-son moment for them. I love how Gnash is such a spitting image of Brooklyn minus the coloring. Also, Greg has always told us that Brooklyn would take care to not learn too much of his future during his TimeDance, and I suspect that as he gained a family that extended to them as well. By 2198, Gnash is likely long dead, but I wonder if Brooklyn encountered (and possibly even traveled with) an older Gnash at some point in his adventures. It would explain why teaching him history is so important to Brooklyn. I guess I just suspect that there is more going on in Brooklyn's mind then just a history lesson. Especially since it carried over into another chapter.
- Goliath wakes up in prison. Across the way from Dracon and Brod! Guess they keep all the high profile folks in a certain wing or something. I love Dracon and Brod's glee in Goliath's imprisonment. I'm wondering if they are starting to build an odd friendship. Maybe putting them together was funny at first, but could lead to problems down the line. The CO seems a bit sadistic. Chill out, dude. Also, I believe he is the same guy that Coyote took down way back in Leader of the Pack. That longish hair is hard to miss on a guard. The way he's treating Goliath makes me feel less bad about the experience he had with Coyote's nerve ray thing.
- We continue the Pete and Rosaria storyline. Still no word on exactly who kidnapped them, though it seems to clearly be Dino. I would've liked to see more of who exactly was in the trio masks in chapter 4 though. There was some disagreement among the fans of who exactly those guys were. I hope we find out down the line. I suppose Dino's plan to put two of the families against each other is working well. This whole plot isn't super interesting to me, but obviously it is building to something important, so I'm staying tuned!
- The Matt and Elisa scene is tense to me. Feels like we've returned to some friction between them. Elisa is obviously pissed that Matt allowed this to happen. Matt is still feeling like his partner is doing her own thing more than she should. I find myself a bit on Team Matt here, though I think he could've done more to warn Elisa. We know he could've paged her. Did she ignore him? I can't imagine the whole operation went from plan to execution in minutes. Regardless, it sounds like it was going to happen sooner or later. And who is the mysterious benefactor? We had a tease of possibly Renard, but it doesn't make sense it would be him... right? Was it the Quarrymen? We get a glimpse of Castaway here afterall.
- The Daily Tattler returns! I'm sure this is very exciting for them. What is most exciting to me is that we get a canon date! 15 May 1997! Well into '97. Also, I need to go backward here and figure out which day Michael Maza was born. My birthday is 11 May, so it'd be fun to share a birthday with a character!
- The court scene is cool. Didn't even expect to see Judge Roebling again, though I shoud've. New character named Tobe Crest is representing Goliath. Was he appointed by the court or did someone hire him? He calls Goliath "my client". Did Xanatos bring him in? Did Renard? He seems to know a lot about Goliath already. Margot is right in character. The biggest surprise from her is that she's in a suit. Ha.
- Probably my favorite thing in this chapter is Brooklyn once the sun goes down that night. Far from the hesitant leader in Kingdom, here Brooklyn takes command without a second thought and jumps right into a sensible and strategic plan. And the clan backs him up (all except Fu-Dog who I suspect is guarding Egwardo). I think Brooklyn's "no gargoyle left behind" mantra had to be something he adopted during the TimeDance. Very cool to see Coldstone and Coldfire following his lead. A little more development of Coldstone here. He clearly values human life less than most of the clan, but he won't disobey. Brooklyn's rescue of Goliath works, except Goliath realizes, perhaps with some perspective from Dracon and Brod, that he needs to stay. This could be an important step in gargoyle-human relations. And Goliath probably also realizes that if he goes, the powers that be will see them as even more dangerous and they'll continue to hunt the gargoyles down. To be continued...
- All in all, a solid story. Great character moments and action and a lot of fun easter eggs and tidbits. I think Chapter 4 was perhaps stronger, but this is still great stuff and I'm waiting for Chapter 6 and beyond with much anticipation! Also looking forward to everyone else's thoughts! What a time to be a Gargoyles fan. Never the end! [/SPOILER]
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 9:30:02 pm EDT from 24.107.111.141

B - I'm sorry to hear about Misty as well (I used to have a tortoiseshell cat, until she passed on a little over three years ago; they're beautiful animals). And about the news you got about your cat, Craig. My best wishes to you both.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 7:42:24 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

B> I'm sorry for your loss as well. I recently got some bad health news regarding my cat. The downside of having pets is that we can be pretty certain that we will outlive them, and that loss is always painful. I sometimes wonder if this crosses Goliath's mind, regarding Elisa...barring an early death related to the occupational risks they both take, his projected lifespan will outlast hers, likely by 50+ years. A sad inevitability for him to confront, I imagine.

[SPOILER] Masterdramon > Good points regarding the legal posture. I still imagine that Tobe would have met with Goliath at Rikers though. If he's going to be the first attorney to represent a new species, I imagine he'd want to verify exactly what he was dealing with before presenting arguments to the court, and wouldn't just trust Renard's account. (Especially given how passionate he is here. Much better than that wishy-washy attorney on Goliath Chronicles.) I imagine that his motion probably takes the form of a habeas motion (i.e., unlawful imprisonment), although it may be an uphill battle to establish that habeas applies to another species.

Here's an fascinating article about a recent habeas proceeding brought on behalf of an elephant in the Bronx Zoo: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/07/the-elephant-in-the-courtroom

The article also mentions several prior cases along the same lines, and goes into depth about the arguments for various species to be granted "personhood" in the legal sense. Unfortunately, the NY Court of Appeals ultimately ruled 5-2 that the elephant did not have personhood and therefore habeas did not apply.

This also raises the question: What is the City's plan for Goliath long-term? Just to hold him in captivity indefinitely? Study him? Kill him? Display him as a tourist attraction? Is there even a plan at this point, or had they not thought ahead of "capture them"?

Leaving the legal stuff aside (for now), more thoughts on the issue...

As someone who hasn't been the biggest fan of Nakayama's covers, I quite like this one. His Elisa is a little too "cute" for me, but the composition, posing and sense of urgency are very cool. I appreciate that he got her badge number correct, and the texture of her jeans is very well rendered (small detail but very cool).

Nice to finally see the Conner cover (which wasn't included with the solicitation...it seems she's been turning in her work a bit later than the others). The Conner covers have generally been my favorite, and it's super cool to have her finally draw Katana (she's mostly been sticking to the original cast, as have most of the cover artists). However, the way Goliath is carrying Elisa by the arm looks super uncomfortable and precarious. He's liable to dislocate her shoulder. Couldn't someone else have carried Bronx?!

I quite like this month's Jae Lee cover, with an upside-down Lex hanging off a sculpture that somewhat resembles the Silver Falcon. The moody spire-filled background (which is clearly NOT Manhattan) is very nice as well.

Love the Hudson narration. Bittersweet given the loss of Ed Asner, but the voice lives on in my head (and in Greg's, clearly). It's a nice touch that Hudson still feels a level of discomfort with having a name (even feeling imprisoned by it in this particularly stressful moment...those type of dire situations can bring out some of our deepest insecurities).

Great work all around by Kambadais, but I particularly love the opening pages of Hudson: first his horror at Goliath's capture, then his steely determination. Bluestone looks great, too. My only complaint with the art in the first few issues was that human characters were off-model, but George seems to be becoming much more comfortable with those characters.

I like the fact that Matt's position with the GTF puts him into inevitable conflict with Hudson and Elisa, although both are short-lived. I hope this is explored further in subsequent issues. Matt can only do so much without compromising his position on the force, and I have a feeling there may be some fallout if the clan isn't happy with the way things progress. He's in a really difficult and delicate position. Interesting that he repeats his "one way or another" excuse verbatim twice.

"Tinman." Nice touch.

Elisa being "outed" as Goliath's friend in front of the Rikers guard is interesting. I wonder what the guard made of Tony and Brod's remarks. These guys have the potential to make her life very very unpleasant.

Like Ed, I was happy to finally get a date for this issue: May 15, 1997. So it's been about four months since Brooklyn's return. And "Goliath makes a bargain" is still two months away.

Technically, Judge Roebling should recuse himself from this proceeding since he knows Goliath. But clearly he's keeping that on the down-low.

Kambadais does some nice cross-hatching in this issue, Brooklyn's wings on page 17 being one example that caught my eye. I don't recall him using this technique much in prior issues, but I like it a lot.

In regards to Ed's point about Coldstone/Othello's attitude toward humans: way back in "Reawakening," we saw 994 Othello support Demona's proposal that they should abandon the castle and let the vikings kill the humans. So I do think he has always had a chip on his shoulder about humans, or at the very least couldn't care less about their survival one way or the other.

Like others, I'm intrigued by Brooklyn's weapon. Where did that come from? Did he get it in his time travels? He doesn't even seem to have it on him until it's needed for the action (one of my only gripes with the artwork this issue).

Hopefully Goliath earns a little respect for willingly choosing to stay in jail...but probably not, since the only witnesses are the guard who seems terrible, and Tony and Brod. Plus, the City is unlikely to be too happy with the damage Goliath's friends caused to their jail and helicopters.

The gang war kidnapping thing turned out to be what everyone had predicted, so that was a bit disappointing, but I'm sure that storyline will take some interesting turns.

Very excited to see where all this goes.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 4:43:05 pm EDT from 63.143.195.15

Absolutely loved this issue.

CRAIG: [SPOILER] Since Goliath has no legal personhood or constitutional rights at this time, Habeas Corpus would not apply and the entire hearing will presumably be conducted in abstentia.

It is, in effect, the same situation legally as 2015's Naruto v. David Slater et al.. In that case, PETA filed a motion on behalf of a monkey that took several selfies that achieved significant media attention, asserting he should hold the copyright and receive proceeds from any commercialization of the photos. This was done under the "next friend" principle, which is usually used when suing on behalf of a litigant unable to do so themselves due to age, disability, etc.

Since Goliath has no legal personhood, whoever hired Tobe (I agree that it's most likely Renard) is suing as an interested party. Tobe may be rhetorically calling Goliath his "client" but legally, he's not. The human that hired him is.

Mind, it's not a very helpful comparison for Goliath's sake, since PETA's suit went nowhere and the ultimate resultant case law largely settled on non-humans NOT being able to hold copyright of any kind. But procedurally, it seems the closest antecedent in actual American jurisprudence that I can find. [/SPOILER]
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 1:28:36 pm EDT from 98.150.138.224

B> My condolences as well. Hope you and your mom will be fine.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 12:54:26 pm EDT from 166.216.158.212

B: I'm sorry for your loss.

Craig: [SPOILER] Really good points. Yes, I may have misinterpreted the time frame on Elisa's arrival. If Tobe Crest has met Goliath though I'm a bit sad we missed it. Feels like that's a major moment. But where would they have met? Surely not in his cell and the whole point of holding him there was because a zoo cage was not available. Would they let a lawyer go in with a wild animal? I guess as you say, this does make sense as it follows the procedure but I'm so intrigued and I hope we get into the logistics this arc.

Couple of other things I really liked:

- Brooklyn's plan is genuinely brilliant. He's always been good at them but it's so well considered and seeing Brooklyn as a very different kind of warrior with his laser weapon is terrific. Plus, a recognition that his depth perception isn't all that is both funny and sad. Makes me all the more excited to see 'Timedancer'.

- The Dracon/Brod interaction ("breaking the law whenever it suits them") is interesting because in a sense it's kind of true.

- We get a definite date for the story: 15 May 1997 (on the newspaper). Lovely Easter egg. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 12:18:48 pm EDT from 5.81.29.146

Ed > [SPOILER] I'm fairly certain Tobe Crest would have visited Rikers and had a discussion with Goliath. In a typical criminal proceeding, Goliath would have been present in court and his attorney would have spoken to him in the holding area of the courthouse before arraignment, but obviously they had concerns about transporting Goliath (presumably, they've seen the Goliath Chronicles episode). It's still not entirely clear what type of legal proceeding this is (even Judge Roebling seems confused). If Roebling is a justice of the peace, he wouldn't be hearing a criminal case. But in any event, I can't imagine any attorney would be making a motion without having spoken to his client in depth, so I'm assuming most of the information comes directly from Goliath.

I don't think Elisa and Goliath actually exchanged any words at all. Just a look, before Goliath turned to stone at sunrise. At least, that was my interpretation.

I'll have a lot more to say later, but wanted to address those two points of your excellent review.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 11:32:06 am EDT from 209.140.46.62

Our tortoiseshell Misty passed away this morning at the age of 19. It's particularly hard for Mom.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 10:39:28 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

A terrific issue with lots of great moments.

#5 SPOILERS:

[SPOILER] First of all "Render Unto Caesar" is an amazing title - one of my favourite yet. And we're now 0 out of 6 (including the arc title) on single-worders. As much as I love a good single-worder, I definitely love ones like #4 and #5 that have real poetry with them.

I love Hudson's phrase "the son of my heart". I kind of wonder whether this is something he's saying because of his exposure to humans -- surely most gargoyles of his generation would just see Goliath as a son but Hudson was always closer to humans and probably always had to explain the gargoyles' customs for parenthood.

Nice to see Lexington and Amp chatting it up. As someone who did a lot of online chatting in the late 90s, I'd have loved for nostalgia's sake to see IRC or something but obviously this is much clearer.

Although I think Amp's going to damage his computer waking up if he's not careful.

Great to see more about the commitment ceremony. Interesting that Angela nominates Katana but Broadway is hesitant about Brooklyn -- what does Broadway perceive Brook being busy with that Katana isn't? Feels like this is an excuse for his own lack o comfort. My hunch is that we won't see this ceremony until #12 and it'll be a chance to bring the Trio together. Hope so anyway!

In the panel where Brooklyn says "in a universe with time travel..." There's a conspicuous period-appropriate thatched look-out post behind them. I haven't noticed thatch in the castle before although it's probably been there all along. It's curious to me though that it's featured fairly clearly and in some detail which suggests to me that it was deliberately scripted. Feels like it would be a very Greg way to seed in clues - will this location get some play in 'Dark Ages'? Hmm. I could be overthinking of course.

I love how George Kambadais draws sulky Gnash.

Okay, after all that speculation about how Goliath might end up close to Tony and Brod, he just wakes up with them. But, you know, it's fine. I'm reminded of Vince Gilligan's maxim that a coincidence to get characters out of trouble is bad but a coincidence that gets characters into more trouble is fine (I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist). Tony and Brod being there is just so much fun.

It's not completely clear how close they are - they don't overhear any of Goliath and Elisa's conversations seemingly but they do hear the guard speaking to Elisa - are they separated by a hall or are there stairs etc. between?

We have a new character of the slightly sadistic prison guard. He's where it gets a bit weird: this guard does not talk at all like he's talking to an animal. What does he actually think he's dealing with?

Another "beauty and the beast" reference. Kind of feels like it was the pay-off to last issue's title but I love it all the same.

Here's where the compressed form of the comics is a little frustrating because it's difficult to gauge too accurately how long Goliath and Elisa were talking. Also, although I understand that the end of the issue relies on the twist structurally that Goliath stays and that decision would have been informed by Elisa, I really would have liked to see that conversation from the two lead characters.

For one, I think their relationship is still the heart of this story and while I love the procedural stuff, I feel like an emotional page would have been really powerful. Also, it's just an odd thing to play it from a different point of view, especially from (effectively) Tony and Brod's pov.

Now it may well be that we see this discussion from a different viewpoint later on and we get a lot more from the pair of them. I expect we will.

So we meet Esperanza Huracan (?) and Jimmy Choy. As much as I enjoy this subplot, seeing them fall square into Dino's trap isn't as interesting as it will be to see if they can smart their way out of it.

Great to see Castaway on the television. Look forward to seeing more of him soon.

Matt confirms a "mysterious benefactor" backing the GTF - has to be Halcyon.

Another Elisa scene we don't see - the CI. I kind of like how Elisa's resistance to working with others backfires on her here.

Great to see Judge Roebling.

Tobe Crest... who is this guy? Has he even met Goliath? I feel like I've missed a scene here but I'm intrigued.

I'm pretty sure we called the parrots/Dostoyevsky exchange the other week - glad to see this discussion though as I think it encapsulates the issues around any assumption of sentience. But how on earth does Tobe know that he reads Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky?

I guess the Dostoyevsky reference is meant to hint that Elisa has briefed him since it's a reference to "The Edge"... but then, how much has she briefed him given how cagey she is? Feels like Elisa's on thin ice here in so many ways in terms of who she says what to. My hunch is that this is someone hired by Halcyon. (Was there a Dostoyevsky reference in "Outfoxed" or "Golem" - any reason to think Renard might have that information? I don't recall. But it's possible that it's a conversation they've had).

Back at the Castle, Brooklyn has really grown accustomed to command. I like it.

The "No Gargoyle Left Behind" rule kind of gave me chills. I have a hunch that one day, given enough issues, we'll find out the origin of that phrase - and I worry it'll be heartbreaking. Also, although Brooklyn has sound logical reasons to want Coldfire and Coldstone alongside him, I do wonder if he's protecting Broadway and Lexington because of some knowledge of the future he's not revealing. Or perhaps just some unconfirmed suspicion.

Also fascinating that he doesn't trust Xanatos. Given how much time he's spent in the future - is there something he knows?

What's genius about this is that just by giving Brooklyn this 40-year trip, almost every line he says is open to scrutiny which is the experience both of Lex and Broadway but also the reader. It's great.

"Guarding each other" is another one. I don't feel like Brooklyn is distant because of a lack of love for Broadway and Lexington but a surfeit... which worries me for the characters' future.

Coldfire gets in a good "yonder".

Othello's apathy towards the survival of the humans is interesting. The character has always been portrayed as quite selfish but because he's usually been contrasted with Iago, it's kind of been brushed aside, but he clearly does have a "problem" here. I wonder whether this attitude predates 994. Certainly, of all the clan, Othello and Desdemona suffer most from the consequences of the Wyvern massacre on an ongoing basis due to their "disabilities" as gargoyles. It may be that Othello always had this attitude to humans of course.

Brooklyn's weapon is interesting. I wonder where he got that.

The colouring on Brooklyn's hair in his final panel does good job of making him look a little older.

And we get back to Goliath's Jesus moment. I mean, hopefully he read to the end of the New Testament...

It makes perfect sense that he would stay in the system like this. Renard would approve.

"By the dragon" makes an appearance. Not for the first time of course, but... hey... 'Dark Ages' is around the corner...?

Another fantastic issue. Lots more in here I'm sure but I need to get going.

If I have one reservation, it's the lack of that central Goliath/Elisa scene to anchor everything and give it that emotional weight. I know Keith and Salli aren't voicing the comic but in my head they still are and I missed "hearing" them as much as I wanted this issue. But Greg knows what he's doing so I imagine it'll make sense when this arc is read as a whole.

And hooray - don't want to jinx it but it looks like the issues with the digital issue deliveries are finally done! [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Apr 26, 2023 1:02:27 am EDT from 86.140.47.50

Maybe Jeff Bennett, to provide a touch of "Like father, like son". And he did the voice of Billy in "The Thrill of the Hunt", so it wouldn't be the first time he'd played a kid on "Gargoyles".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 10:00:35 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I think both Ryan Potter and Yuri Lowenthal are too old to play Nashville convincingly. Ryan Potter sounds closer to me, and Greg likes to cast actors who fit how the characters are coded, so I think that's a really good choice beyond the fact that he'd have to try to sound 9.

On the other hand, Ryan Potter does really work for Hiro, but Hiro is also 14, which is quite a bit older than 9 is. (Incidentally I think Ryan Potter is amazing, and really made Beast Boy work in Titans)

I think it needs to be like... Lauren Tom or Cathy Weseluck. Or best case scenario, an actual 10 year old. But that's really difficult to cast, especially if you also want to match the ethnicity just because it shrinks the pool of viable actors by quite a bit.

Also just because I said it so close to last week's cut off I'll repeat my comment:

Ed: Thanks for the feedback. I'm still really rusty when it comes to the voices/acting, but I'm getting back in the swing of it. I used to do a lot of voice over way back when but I fell off doing it for personal reasons. I'm really nervous about crossing a line with copyright/fair use. So I'm hesitant to do any more sound design than just putting in my voice without sound effects or music.

Incidentally, my Nashville is pretty bad, but I'm trying to capture the spirit of the scenes/characters and make them pop more than play all 20 characters perfectly. My Antoinette is decidedly *very* silly, but I have a lot of fun doing that.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 5:48:06 pm EDT from 70.27.162.19

Off-topic, I'll admit, but I saw the Fleecs cover for #8 last evening. Lexington gets his own Fleecs cover at last - and, naturally, one of the dogs sharing it with him is a robot. (I have an image now of Lex saying "If that Doctor fellow can make his own robot dog, so can I.")

I assume that three of the four covers after this will go to Katana, Nashville, and Fu-Dog. who'll get the twelfth? Probably not Egwardo; a still-unhatched egg won't have that much opportunity to interact with dogs.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 8:32:34 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

The casting idea of Yuri as Gnash for the "Age of Gargoyles" shared projects was originally mine, and on top of his YJ involvement and generally youthful-sounding voice, was primarily because of his fluency in Japanese. He lived in Osaka for a time and used to work for an English-teaching program there.

That being said, I'd certainly prefer an actor of actual Japanese descent, if there's one with the right vocal quality in the talent pool. Offhand, Ryan Potter (Hiro in the Big Hero 6 franchise, who is half-Jewish and half-Japanese) seems like he'd work pretty well.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 2:09:31 am EDT from 98.150.138.224

Nashville's voice is an interesting dilemma. By Garg standards he's about 9-10 years old so you'll want something that reflect that kind of youthfulness. But casting kids of that age range is risking because you always risk their voices changing before the character they play has had a chance to mature.

Wil Wheaton's voice is a bit too mature for that, even back in the 90's when Gargoyles was on air. If the character was in his early teens, Jason Marsden would be a good fit and he just got into voice acting for Disney when Gargoyles was around.

Going by Star Trek casting, the late Aron Eisenberg of Deep Space 9 would've been good too. His voice didn't change all that much during his time on the show.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the had Kath Soucie do one of her young kid voices for the role since she was a semi-regular on the show. Nowadays? Who knows?
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 1:00:02 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

So not just one, but two cents. One for Gargoyles and wanted to revisit a topic from The Owl House

1. Nashville and his voice. I mean it might be better to cast someone in an Asian role possible, but going by Bishansky's fits where he listed Yuri Lowenthal, I thought about some of the Trek casting.

I mean still need to think it over, but I have humored the idea of Wil Wheaton especially since he has a decent amount of voice work.

2. So before we learned more about his brother Caleb (I think at earliest, Philip having a bro was mentioned as early as Yesterday's Lie), what was everyone else's take on the guy we thought could and was revealed to be Belos, Philip Wittebane?

Nothing complex on my end, but pretty much a good person who explored the Isles and was corrupted by a curse.*

But besides the details working well, I don't take issue with how things played out, cause I figure the point is helping us to better see why the Isles drank the Ghoul Aid for so long. And remember, Ghoul Aid is an actual drink according to "Themselves the Breaks, Kid".XD

*Some would say that Belos claiming his deeds were done specifically cause of dark magic only demonstrated his lies cause of the insistent that magic can be dark.

But I don't know. While the person made doesn't deserve ill thoughts, one could argue that making a Grimwalker borders on dark magic.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Apr 24, 2023 12:28:28 am EDT from 71.84.183.196