Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Todd> You should try downloading the desktop Discord app if the online version isn't working for you.

https://discord.com/api/downloads/distributions/app/installers/latest?channel=stable&platform=win&arch=x86

We'd be happy to have you if you can make it!

And speaking of making it, Matt has confirmed this will work, folks, so I think we're on! My current plan is to start the stream about 4 PM Eastern to allow for the best swathe of people (1 PM Pacific, 8 PM GMT/UTC), but if anyone thinks an alternate time would serve better, feel free to request it. Click on my name to get an invite to the Discord and I hope all interested can join us for the showing tomorrow. I may even invite a few folks onto the "stage" to talk during/after the show!

See you then!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, May 28, 2023 5:52:16 pm EDT from 184.54.103.20

BRAINIAC - Thanks for the invitation, and the "Awakening" showing for Memorial Day sounds appealing. Unfortunately, my computer's browser is an older one that isn't compatible with Discord. (I'm thinking of getting a new computer very soon, mainly because of the "out-of-date browser" business, and while it'll be too late for the "Awakening" showing, I might visit your site after that - though I confess I'm not too clear on what a Discord server is.)

Happy Pentecost - I remember someone here (though I forget who) mentioning watching movies related to King Arthur on that day, and it certainly matches. (Pentecost was when King Arthur traditionally assembled the knights of the Round Table to renew their oaths - and the Quest of the Holy Grail began on one such Pentecost.) Which reminds me - with the "Dark Ages" mini-series coming out, will we get a "Pendragon" mini-series as well, afterwards?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, May 28, 2023 9:51:02 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Visit For More Information about Website .
golfclubs - [moneymachine828 at yahoo dot com]
Jordan
posted @ Sun, May 28, 2023 6:28:34 am EDT from 92.38.148.61

Brainiac> I'm certainly interested, what time were you thinking on Monday?
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, May 27, 2023 11:12:16 pm EDT from 98.248.2.24

Well, if anyone here wants to join The Gargoyle Nation Discord server (link below), I'm hoping to test the new Stage functionality audio this weekend and maybe run a community viewing of Awakening on Memorial Day. Feel free to drop in if interested (especially if you're willing to help me test the audio feeds).
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sat, May 27, 2023 9:06:59 pm EDT from 184.54.103.20

B> Unfortunately Beast has fallen into the "genius character decides to throw away all sense of morality" trap that plagues comic book writers oh so often.

X-Men has been kind of hit and miss lately. On the one hand the mutant nation of Krakoa has allowed for the return of a lot of mutants that were killed off for shock value over the years. But it pretty much signals that no, mutants aren't going to live alongside humanity and they have to be separate.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, May 27, 2023 7:08:40 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Tood Jensen> If nothing else I think the two, especially Marvel are worth reads from their 30s to 90s stuff.

And heck, if you want a couple gems that are reader friendly are Spider-Girl by Tom DeFalco and the short-lived minis and series The Amazing Spider-Man Renew Your Vows.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, May 27, 2023 2:29:51 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

This is the kind of thing that's certain to discourage me from reading DC and Marvel Comics.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, May 27, 2023 8:46:26 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Matthew> They have? I haven't kept up with the recent Marvel and DC comics because they change anything and everything so often.
B
B
posted @ Fri, May 26, 2023 11:01:41 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

I always liked Beast as the erudite, philosophical scientist. Like Goliath it's the way they think and speak which contrasts with their, dare I say, more monstrous exterior.

And I sure as heck like it better than the evil madman they've been portraying him as over the last few years.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, May 26, 2023 10:29:23 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Todd Jensen> Well, one of the criticisms of The Goliath Chronicles was that by centering everything on the conflict with the Quarrymen, it made Gargoyles into an X-Men clone.
B
B
posted @ Fri, May 26, 2023 10:26:11 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before or not, but one amusing feature of the mention in #5 of Goliath reading Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky - I recall that in Season One of the FOX "X-Men" series, Beast, when he was in prison, also read both of those authors. (To be precise, he was shown reading Shakespeare - "Macbeth", in fact - in one scene, plus offering an adapted quote from "The Merchant of Venice" - the "Hath not a Jew eyes?" speech - at his hearing, and commented at the end of his hearing scene that at least he'd have more time in prison to catch up on Dostoyevsky.) And Beast, as Goliath is doing at the end of #5 (and will presumably continue to do, in more detail, in #6) also refused to be broken out of prison, choosing to win his freedom through the legal system instead.

The similarity's probably a coincidence (and, of course, Goliath's familiarity with Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky goes back to Season One, probably before Greg had the idea about Goliath's capture, imprisonment, and hearing), but I thought it worth sharing here.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, May 26, 2023 9:12:41 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I'm pretty sure the lead character is meant to be Taiwanese but they REALLY downplay it. I think the only mention is a line his mum has about the food they're eating.

I like it pretty well. Michelle Yeoh mugging for the camera as a trickster God is cool. The relationship between the two main boys is nice.

They also took a kind of nuanced approach to the main characters' activism. Sometimes, especially kids don't want to speak out against every small injustice, they just wanna fit in and get along. And that's ok.

It's not an amazing show but I'm having a good time with it. It sounds totally different than the comic tho.
Alex (FKA Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, May 25, 2023 6:16:13 pm EDT from 207.164.126.50

hmm interesting review.
Retaining Wall
posted @ Thu, May 25, 2023 7:43:27 am EDT from 180.191.209.182

I'm a little shaky on Disney+ "American Born Chinese." The comic was an insightful look on how Asian culture is often subdued in order to fit in with the more "American" image and it's fantastical elements are bits of flavor not the central core of the story. So when I heard they were making it into a wuxia fantasy epic I just went, "...What?"

Plus they changed one the character's background from Taiwanese to Chinese in order to appeal mainland China's censors.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, May 25, 2023 1:39:57 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I watched the first two episodes of :American born Chinese" and thought it was really solid. The writing is hit or miss but the cast and characterization are great.

I read a review of the show where it said it was really too packed with ideas. But how refreshing it was for a show to have too much to say and not enough room to say it. Rather than the other way around.

It made me think of Young Justice Phantoms in the best possible way.
Alex (FKA Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, May 24, 2023 5:22:57 pm EDT from 69.158.246.115

Todd Jensen> You're welcome! The Train Documentaries (the mini episodes set between Seasons 1 and 2 where One-One explores certain cars) are also available for free on Cartoon Network's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLghTC0dNWdH35K4ghEiBR89FYUPD5Eo8_
B
B
posted @ Wed, May 24, 2023 9:35:19 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Yes, I spotted it in the DVD section yesterday. I haven't checked it out yet - I've a number of other things to do first - but will soon.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, May 24, 2023 8:31:44 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd> Don't forget to check out Young Frankenstein while you're there!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, May 24, 2023 12:30:57 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I'll have to check to see if the library has them. Thanks for telling me.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 10:13:29 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd Jensen> Also, the first two seasons are available on DVD. The Train Documentaries are on the first season set.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 10:00:18 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Todd Jensen> You're welcome!

Craig> I think it looks good! The purple is a bright shade and contrasts well with the yellow of Owen's hair.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 9:58:31 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Brainiac > Thanks for pointing out the preview button. No idea how I missed that! After going through a bunch of options, I think I'll stick with my first instinct. (I considered going with Hudson, a favorite of mine, especially in light of Dark Ages...but I think I'll stick with Owen.)
Craig
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 9:02:07 pm EDT from 63.143.200.183

B - Thanks for telling me.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 8:35:51 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd Jensen> All four seasons are still available to buy at iTunes, Amazon Prime, Vudu, Google Play and Youtube. There are links in this article, and I just checked and confirmed that they're all still working: https://owendennis.substack.com/p/so-uh-whats-going-on-with-infinity
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 8:29:10 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

I only got to see the first season of "Infinity Train", but I thought it was good. I really should have kept an eye out for the other seasons when they aired, but forgot to do it. Too late now, alas.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 7:46:42 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Matthew> Oh, yeah. Still bitter about the Infinity Train cancellation and removal.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 5:44:59 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Bit off topic, as you probably are aware, HBO Max has now switched to simply "Max." I'm pleased to report that all four seasons of Young Justice are still available to watch.
Considering how many things were cut for the merger, I'm glad that this wasn't one of them.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 4:08:07 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matt> That's correct, only humans addressed Goliath by name in the Dark Ages scenes in "Awakening". The Trio only used it when talking to Tom, to explain to him Goliath was the only gargoyle with a name.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 10:53:59 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Brigadoon Traveler> Welcome back! It is an exciting time to be a Gargoyles fan. I hope this is only the beginning of the franchise expanding and garnering more attention.

Matt> Plus there would be first and second cousins.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 10:28:40 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Names> A couple gargoyles have called him Mentor. But that could just be a title that a few gargoyles/humans use and (out of universe) Greg uses to write for him. It remains to be seen how/if the name is really used in Dark Ages. Same goes for Angel. For continuity reasons, we should expect that the humans might assign a few names, but the gargoyles don't really use them. I don't think a single gargoyle character used the name "Goliath" before waking up in 1994. I think a similar thing will happen with names like Mentor and Angel. It may also just end up being a placeholder name for Greg and the artists' benefit like Second and Sacrifice.

Biological Relationships> As best I can figure, I imagine the Wyvern Clan in 971 would number around 150 gargoyles. I'm basing that on the number of eggs they would produce in 988 (the 36 eggs), so theres a lot of guesswork there. Given the dangerous time period, I can't see many gargoyles living well past breeding age (in contrast to the modern London Clan where we have Old Pog approaching 200 years old!). So, 971 ballpark population here:

33 eggs in the rookery (generation 978 including Bronx, Kermit, True, etc.)
30 gargoyles/beasts in generation 958 (including the trio, Schnozz, etc.)
28 gargoyles/beasts in generation 938 (including Goliath, Angel, Iago, Brooksbro, etc.)
26 gargoyles/beasts in generation 918 (including Second, Sacrifice, etc.)
23 gargoyles/beasts in generation 898 (including Chomp, Chaw, etc.)
19 gargoyles/beasts in generation 878 (including Mentor, etc.)
12 gargoyles/beasts in generation 858
5 gargoyles/beasts in generation 838
1 gargoyle/beast in generation 818

The reason I bring this up is to show that the clan is certainly a "full clan", but its not a massive population. We know a few dozen gargoyles that are mostly unrelated to each other, so the odds of some of the fresh faces being related to some of the known gargoyles is actually quite high. It isn't too much of a fan service stretch for us to see biological parents and siblings of existing characters. It would be more surprising if we didn't see relatives.

The excitement for seeing them is partially fan service, partially realism, and (for me) learning more about gargoyle biology/heredity and clan dynamics.
Matt
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 10:03:08 am EDT from 12.14.29.34

Welcome back, Brigadoon Traveler. It's been a long time, but I remembered your name from the earlier days of Station 8.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 9:21:03 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Long time lurker here.... Used to post ages again but not that often, just used to drop in now and again. Not sure if anyone would remember me due to how infrequent I used to post back in the day (must've been back during the SLG run).

But just been catching up on all the comic news. Oh wow what a time to be a fan. Have read up to issue 5 and loving the story so far, can't wait to see what Greg has in store for us. So excited for Dark Ages.

Just a few thoughts on gargoyle names in Dark Ages; interesting to hear Hudson will be referred to as mentor. Glad it's been carried through from Reawakening and Vows. I'd imagine the rest of the clan don't call him father because maybe he didn't have that personal parental relationship with the trio.

Until issue 5 I never imagined Goliath and Hudson to have a father/son dynamic but that was nice to see.

I'd imagine that mentor would only be a term used for Hudson by Goliath and his rookery siblings (and maybe generation above as well?). I'm guessing trio's generation would be too young to call him mentor? Hudson's siblings, mate and elders would I'd imagine refer to him with other terms (such as my leader, or my love or brother).

I've always loved the idea of the Wyvern gargoyles not having names and would love to see how it plays out in Dark Ages. The concept of names fascinates me; that universal notion that we humans all get labelled with a term from birth that defines who we are is so... human. Yet, saying that people do develop collections of names, nicknames and titles over time and perhaps maybe that's how it works with gargoyles. In 1994 onwards Hudson is just the Hudson (a name he feels defines and limits him), but in 971 he's 'my mentor', 'my love' (or whatever his mate calls him), my leader and I'm sure so many other things.
Brigadoon Traveler
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 8:16:48 am EDT from 92.13.76.144

I know that I looked for one and was frustrated there wasn't. It's as if it didn't exist before you mentioned it (but the Wayback Machine shows it was added when the site was redesigned between 2008 and 2009). In my defense, I can only offer that preview features are always at the very bottom of the page on wikis.
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 23, 2023 12:17:58 am EDT from 74.74.246.146

Actually, you CAN preview your comments. One button on the post page is preview (the higher one) and the other is post. Choose your combo in advance and you can see what you'll get. And to make sure you don't post by accident, just don't fill in the captcha code since you don't need to for preview, only for post.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 10:37:53 pm EDT from 184.54.103.20

I also lurked for a year or two before posting my own comments.
B
B
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 10:30:50 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

B> Thanks for the feedback! I was looking at Owen and Matt Bluestone as characters I relate to and I think I haven't seen too much of on here before? I don't want to pick an avatar another regular user has. I'm switching over to a slightly different text shade here and to Bluestone just to try it on.

BTW, I've been reading Ask Greg pretty religiously since 1998 (when my family first got the Internet...I was 14). Just very rarely came out of lurk mode, up until these new comics got me excited to engage with the community.
Craig
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 10:24:05 pm EDT from 209.140.44.144

Nice color and avatar, Craig. I do prefer seeing it to the white text. You may recall that months ago, I experimented with various text colors in the blue-green range before settling on Bright Cyan. Since, as there's no preview feature, we can only see what the color names will translated into by posting them.
B
B
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 10:17:44 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Since I'm posting here a fair amount lately since the comics started, figured I should try to experiment with a text color and avatar, to break up the monotony of posting just blocks of white text. Not sure if I'll stick with this combo (and truthfully not even sure what it will look like, since I just selected options from the dropdown menus), but it's a start, I suppose.

B> I totally get that, from an in-world explanation standpoint. But I'm asking more from the perspective of Greg, in terms of the conscious creative choice being made. The Wyvern clan is pretty large. I don't recall ever getting an exact census of how big the Wyvern clan is in 994, but 36 eggs implies at least 72 gargoyles...and presumably the clan is far bigger still in 971, before they fractured into splinter clans. So, the number of characters directly biologically related to our core six would be relatively small, percentage-wise. And, just as in humans, gargoyle characters aren't necessarily going to look noticeably like their parents or siblings anyway (sure, it's a cartoon trope that they will, but in reality, siblings often look nothing alike). So it's interesting that Greg is focused so much on this idea of biological relationship. (I guess I can also add Gabriel to the list, as the most prominent gargoyle we met on Avalon besides Angela just happened to be related to one of the few Wyvern clan members we're acquainted with.) I suppose at the end of the day, it's just an easy way to get readers/viewers more invested in new characters because we do have that ingrained human sense of, "Oh, this is the relative of someone I already care about!" But it's interesting to me that Greg went out of his way to establish this mythology of the gargoyles not caring about genetic relationships, and then he himself seems to find it very difficult to detach himself from caring about that. It reminds me of the naming thing, where Greg has admitted that he still can't detach from the feeling that "things need names," even after having mocked that concept.
Craig
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 10:05:59 pm EDT from 209.140.33.9

Craig> Because logically individuals biologically related to our main characters would be present in the clan and their design would reflect that.
B
B
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 9:46:31 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

I started out hating this idea of a zillion variant covers (and I still do from a financial standpoint, as I'm obsessive enough to feel like I need to buy all the main ones). But I've also started to really get into it because all the artists are really doing great jobs. I would happily display almost any of these covers on my wall, they're that great, so it's hard to be too angry.

All that to say, it appears that as of #9, we've lost Amanda Conner? I know her covers have been excluded from solicitations in the past (presumably because she was late with the work), but this is the first time that Parrillo has been Cover B, Leirix Cover C, etc., implying that there won't be any Conner (who has traditionally been Cover B). If so, that's unfortunate, as her covers have consistently been my favorites along with Kambadais's.
Craig
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 9:41:55 pm EDT from 209.140.33.9

Off-topic, I know, but I just saw a preview of the Fleecs cover for #9. This one has Angela and Brooklyn meeting a dog (stuck on a fire escape and looking upset about it, apparently longing for the gargoyles' freedom). The cover uses the "pre-Timedancer" version of Brooklyn again (like the Fleecs cover for #4).

(Still on the subject of the Fleecs covers - I'll confess that when I saw the one for @7, of Demona with a group of mean-looking dogs, I couldn't help thinking, "If they're all female, you could say that she's hanging out with her own kind now.")
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 9:18:57 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Bouncing off the conversation around the use of names in Dark Ages promotion, what are people's thoughts on the continued focus on biological relatives of established characters? Given that this is a non-factor to the gargoyles themselves, it's interesting (and a bit odd) that Greg seems so fixated on this. We've had Brooklyn's biological brother, both of Bronx's biological parents, all three of Hudson's biological kids (including Broadway), and now impliedly a biological relative of Demona. In such a large clan, why focus so much on the same bloodlines when bloodlines don't even matter at all to the characters or the story? I get that it's human nature for both Greg and fans to geek on seeing characters who are genetically related to characters we already know ("male Demona," "baby female Hudson," or whatever). But when the characters themselves don't care, why should we? This isn't meant as a knock on Dark Ages, which I am insanely excited about, but I am curious about other people's thoughts about this. Since this is a story about gargoyles, wouldn't it make more sense to immerse ourselves in their mindset and put aside our human instinct to care about this stuff?
Craig
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 9:05:11 pm EDT from 209.140.35.209

By Samson's time, the Manhattan Clan are surely naming their own children, as with Brooklyn and Katana, like the London and Ishimura Clans do.
B
B
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 8:56:08 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Samson's name suggests that human perception of gargoyles has some way to go; the Biblical Samson, while on the right side (unlike the Biblical Goliath) had a strong "failed hero" tone (more interested in pursuing loose women like the original Delilah than defending Israel from the Philistines). Though his name certainly tied in with Goliath's as both "Old Testament mighty men"; the pairing goes all the way back to Shakespeare at least, who in one of his early plays, "Henry VI Part One", has the French comment after being defeated yet again by the English in the Hundred Years' War (before Joan of Arc arrives to turn the tide) that "none but Samsons and Goliases [sic]/ It [England] sendeth forth to skirmish".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 8:23:10 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Not a whole lot, but found this bit on a Team Atlantis episode that didn't make it from Steve Englehart. Eyes of Bushongo: http://www.steveenglehart.com/Animation/Atlantis-Bushongo.html
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 4:09:06 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

At a guess, they just don't see him in that light. While all the parents of the generation may be rookery parents, the children likely don't have the direct mother/father perception for all of them. "It takes a community" and all that.

Also, tying into your point last week, Aldrius, don't forget the upcoming names as well. Samson's name was deliberately meant to show the changing perception of Gargoyles between the tenth century and the twenty-SECOND.

(yes, I did that deliberately and am excessively pleased with myself)
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 9:33:29 am EDT from 129.137.96.2

I honestly wouldn't even call it an issue. Its really just an observation. Just more that it's not really their name. Presumably at some point Goliath will refer to Demona as "my angel of the night" and we already know Coldstone and Goliath call Hudson "mentor" or "my mentor". But its not their names. They don't have names.

I guess it might be confusing if promotional material referred them by names they don't have yet.

It might have been interesting if because they don't use names gargoyle syntax and way of speaking was very distinct from the way humans speak. And the promotional material could kind of mimic that. (Gankutsuou, an anime sort of did that where all the promo for the next episode was written from the perspective of a character).

I actually kind of wonder, let's get some discussion going. Why don't the Manhattan Clan call Hudson "father"? Has this been discussed before?
Alex (FKA Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, May 22, 2023 12:12:25 am EDT from 69.158.246.216

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